Why not hit instead of Bong!

[jimhalliwell]

Hi

Another example of bong being used when a simple punch would do the job quicker!

Why oh Why??? do people practice this stuff?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGu9O6Ftgz8

Jim.

[LFJ]

Well, his hands are down to represent an off guard position. In that case the elbow travels a shorter distance to intercept the punch in an emergency (paau-bong). My beef with it would be the follow up. Just punch through the new line created through the bong-sau elbow. I'm not so sure you can snatch a fast punch out of the air, especially after you've already bonged it. Never been much of a fan of that, although it seems so many people do it as a typical "Wing Chun technique".

[jesper]

Well, his hands are down to represent an off guard position. In that case the elbow travels a shorter distance to intercept the punch in an emergency (paau-bong). My beef with it would be the follow up. Just punch through the new line created through the bong-sau elbow. I'm not so sure you can snatch a fast punch out of the air, especially after you've already bonged it. Never been much of a fan of that, although it seems so many people do it as a typical "Wing Chun technique".

looks good on film

[jimhalliwell]

Well, his hands are down to represent an off guard position. In that case the elbow travels a shorter distance to intercept the punch in an emergency (paau-bong). My beef with it would be the follow up. Just punch through the new line created through the bong-sau elbow. I'm not so sure you can snatch a fast punch out of the air, especially after you've already bonged it. Never been much of a fan of that, although it seems so many people do it as a typical "Wing Chun technique".


Um I get that if your hands are down and its sort of an emergency technique used at very close range ie no other option. This was not the girl is throwing a long range punch and his response Bong sau! for example at 8.20

Jim.

[jimhalliwell]

looks good on film

lol yea!:):):)

[Graham H]

Um I get that if your hands are down and its sort of an emergency technique used at very close range ie no other option. This was not the girl is throwing a long range punch and his response Bong sau!

Jim.

I'm yet to find somebody that can stop a punch with this Bong Sau idea especially from short distance. I used to have that idea in another lineage. Ok if they know its coming but not ok if they don't.

The only emergency technique needed if you get blindsided and your hands down is 999 (911) one........unless you are lucky of course :D

[jimhalliwell]

I'm yet to find somebody that can stop a punch with this Bong Sau idea especially from short distance. I used to have that idea in another lineage. Ok if they know its coming but not ok if they don't.

The only emergency technique needed if you get blindsided and your hands down is 999 (911) one........unless you are lucky of course :D


Best technique by far is to respond with a punch!:)

[Graham H]

Best technique by far is to respond with a punch!:)

True Jim but in the context that a lot of systems use it is for deflecting an incoming punch with the hands down as the elbow is the nearest part to respond. They use the three stepping bong sau actions in chum kiu and that becomes the application for it. I don't agree because, like I said, if you are expecting the punch then it is possible but if you are not then you will get hit.

The other thing that people miss when attaching that application inside chum kiu is that when you are being attacked for real getting your elbow up as the first response will not be at the top of the list.

Things that work in the classroom may not work in real life. People have to be aware of that and ridiculous applications like that and the one shown in the video should be disregarded IMO ;)

[jimhalliwell]

True Jim but in the context that a lot of systems use it is for deflecting an incoming punch with the hands down as the elbow is the nearest part to respond. They use the three stepping bong sau actions in chum kiu and that becomes the application for it. I don't agree because, like I said, if you are expecting the punch then it is possible but if you are not then you will get hit.

The other thing that people miss when attaching that application inside chum kiu is that when you are being attacked for real getting your elbow up as the first response will not be at the top of the list.

Things that work in the classroom may not work in real life. People have to be aware of that and ridiculous applications like that and the one shown in the video should be disregarded IMO ;)

Hi

I remember twenty plus years ago having this and other nonsense rammed down my throat at loads of Wing Chun schools! I Could never make it work for real and finally realized that in the end no one can make it work!

Cheers Jim.

[Graham H]

Hi

I remember twenty plus years ago having this and other nonsense rammed down my throat at loads of Wing Chun schools! I Could never make it work for real and finally realized that in the end no one can make it work!

Cheers Jim.

LOL

Correct. I had the same rubbish rammed down mine as well :D

[LFJ]

At distance, I agree with the punch response. However, the CK paau-bong response for the hands down, emergency situation was, I believe, taught by WSL. The difference though is that this guy is just shifting in place, not stepping. In use you will step aside, still in punching range, as you throw the bong, rather than in the direction as in CK, or just standing in place. Also the laap-sau followup is nonsense. Should just punch through the line created by the elbow. As far as I've seen, this use of paau-bong is present in PB's system for when under the opponent's arms, followed by punches. The hands down, close range situation is basically that.

[Happy Tiger]

'When the hand is free,hit.' negates so many of these moves like bong /lop.When the hand is free hit with the whole structure

[Vajramusti]

Hi

Another example of bong being used when a simple punch would do the job quicker!

Why oh Why??? do people practice this stuff?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGu9O6Ftgz8

Jim.
-----------------------------------------------------
Of course, your choice. But why make a thread out of the video of a very commercial guy with
incomplete wing chun training?

There is much junk out there!!

[LFJ]

Joy, almost every basic intro to Wing Chun video shows this "technique", not just this guy. Randy Williams, who has been under discussion lately also shows it. It's like the typical Wing Chun move everyone does. That's a problem if it's to be representative.

[Graham H]

At distance, I agree with the punch response. However, the CK paau-bong response for the hands down, emergency situation was, I believe, taught by WSL. The difference though is that this guy is just shifting in place, not stepping. In use you will step aside, still in punching range, as you throw the bong, rather than in the direction as in CK, or just standing in place. Also the laap-sau followup is nonsense. Should just punch through the line created by the elbow. As far as I've seen, this use of paau-bong is present in PB's system for when under the opponent's arms, followed by punches. The hands down, close range situation is basically that.

Ok mate, I don't want to get bogged down in what he taught or what he didn't. It makes no odds really.

I don't have that application in my system. Maybe WSL had other ideas when he was teaching my lineage on that day :D

There is only one Bong Sau. You cannot Bong Sau with the elbow above the opponents arm can you? lol

Bong Sau = explosive rotation of the elbow to make way for the punch. The two together make Kwan Sau. In CK we are developing the syncronicity of Bong and the punch (wu sau) accompanied with the cutting step. There is no application. Just mechanics.

You haven't met PB have you? I imagine you are trying to get your ideas from video. Not a good idea. If you were present that day you would have the correct idea :)

There is no videos that I am aware of on YouTube where PB explains the concepts of CK and specifically this bong/wu bit.

[jimhalliwell]

-----------------------------------------------------
Of course, your choice. But why make a thread out of the video of a very commercial guy with
incomplete wing chun training?

There is much junk out there!!


Hi

Sorry about that 11 seconds in.I don't really care who does it its just not for me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDM3HPzWg_s

[k gledhill]

Hi

Sorry about that 11 seconds in.I don't really care who does it its just not for me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDM3HPzWg_s

Classic errors....rotating force on the vertical axis line.

[Wayfaring]

Classic errors....rotating force on the vertical axis line.

Agreed - he's about half way in between concepts dealt with by two different types of bong sau. And missing the purpose of both - one to open up, the other to penetrate. He's just chasing hands. And with the wrong tools.

[k gledhill]

Agreed - he's about half way in between concepts dealt with by two different types of bong sau. And missing the purpose of both - one to open up, the other to penetrate. He's just chasing hands. And with the wrong tools.

Ballistic , kinetic displacement, is a huge missing link in the majority of VT. It changes the dynamics of facing and turning opponents with focused blasts of simultaneous force of defense and attack.

[LFJ]

Ok mate, I don't want to get bogged down in what he taught or what he didn't. It makes no odds really.

I don't have that application in my system. Maybe WSL had other ideas when he was teaching my lineage on that day :D

There is only one Bong Sau. You cannot Bong Sau with the elbow above the opponents arm can you? lol

Bong Sau = explosive rotation of the elbow to make way for the punch. The two together make Kwan Sau. In CK we are developing the syncronicity of Bong and the punch (wu sau) accompanied with the cutting step. There is no application. Just mechanics.

You haven't met PB have you? I imagine you are trying to get your ideas from video. Not a good idea. If you were present that day you would have the correct idea :)

There is no videos that I am aware of on YouTube where PB explains the concepts of CK and specifically this bong/wu bit.

I wasn't making a statement on how PB interprets the actions of CK, I wouldn't know, but just noting that I've seen videos of him using what we call paau-bong in the same way I understand it from CK, which is as you've described it above- "explosive rotation of the elbow to make way for the punch".

[Robinhood]

Hi

Another example of bong being used when a simple punch would do the job quicker!

Why oh Why??? do people practice this stuff?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGu9O6Ftgz8

Jim.

Maybe he could have used a more intimidating partner, or since he is trying to sell something put her in a bikini. Lol

I don't think she could even reach his head, I think he really believes what he is saying, which just shows he hasn't learned much and is trying spread the word and make some money.

Some of the theory is right, application and execution not good.

[Robinhood]

Ballistic , kinetic displacement, is a huge missing link in the majority of VT. It changes the dynamics of facing and turning opponents with focused blasts of simultaneous force of defense and attack.

Ya, you just need to use more muscle, right ? That's it, he is just to small, he should be bigger than his opponent. Maybe he could use that girl to demonstrate on.

[k gledhill]

Ya, you just need to use more muscle, right ? That's it, he is just to small, he should be bigger than his opponent. Maybe he could use that girl to demonstrate on.

Ah QI man tries to make sense of WSL PB VT :D

[trubblman]

Hi

Another example of bong being used when a simple punch would do the job quicker!

Why oh Why??? do people practice this stuff?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGu9O6Ftgz8

Jim.

Why not punch ( or tan bong biu or fook sau)?

[JPinAZ]

Agreed - he's about half way in between concepts dealt with by two different types of bong sau. And missing the purpose of both - one to open up, the other to penetrate. He's just chasing hands. And with the wrong tools.

Agreed. Add to that giving up centerline :)

[LaRoux]

Kind of hard to hit when you are surprised by a sucker punch. Often times, the best you can do in that type of situation is to utilize the natural flinch response.

At least the bong sao is somewhat close to this instinctive flinch response that might occur when one is surprised by something like a sucker punch.

It's way more realistic than the wrist grab and backfist that follows it.

[CRCAUSA]

Now really how would the martial arts fraud LaRoux know? We've already established in another thread you know nothing about WC and have no rank in any martial arts system.:)

[LaRoux]

Now really how would the martial arts fraud LaRoux know? We've already established in another thread you know nothing about WC and have no rank in any martial arts system.:)

Hi again Randy,

So, which is it? Is the bong sao valid or not?

Whaddaya think there, Randy?

Cant' really have it both ways. Either it's valid or it isnt'.

Who's right? Me or or the people claiming that say the bong sao isn't valid?

[Hendrik]

Classic errors....rotating force on the vertical axis line.

Why is rotating force on the vertical axis line an Erro?

[k gledhill]

Why is rotating force on the vertical axis line an Erro?

Right there is Hendriks revelation to not understanding why we adopt 'facing/angles'.... Jiu ying/ chu ying.

Hendrik the Ving Tsun skill of handling force is to cut into it, to turn it or allow it to turn itself ( let the opponent show you how to hit them ). A skill I cant see on any clip of any 'so called ' master , grand master , allmighty great leaning one ;)

Turning ONESELF is a contradiction of Ving Tsun, other than to face an opponents movement.

[Hendrik]

Right there is Hendriks revelation to not understanding why we adopt 'facing/angles'.... Jiu ying/ chu ying.

Hendrik the Ving Tsun skill of handling force is to cut into it, to turn it or allow it to turn itself ( let the opponent show you how to hit them ). A skill I cant see on any clip of any 'so called ' master , grand master , allmighty great leaning one ;)

Turning ONESELF is a contradiction of Ving Tsun, other than to face an opponents movement.

Is there any reason rotating force on vertical axis cannot do facing/angle?

[jimhalliwell]

Hi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcWcy2NA1pk


At point 1.05 ish clearing for punch!

Jim

[k gledhill]

Is there any reason rotating force on vertical axis cannot do facing/angle?

No, it is one of the skills we focus on. Knowing where to focus force to, how and why, is what many have missed for sticking, pressure, redirecting ideas.

[k gledhill]

Hi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcWcy2NA1pk


At point 1.05 ish clearing for punch!

Jim

Ballistic force !

[trubblman]

Ving Tsun skill of handling force is to cut into it, to turn it or allow it to turn itself ( let the opponent show you how to hit them ).

Says who? Is there any authority for this axiom? It seems that this narrows down the idea that VT is a template.

[Vajramusti]

Hi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcWcy2NA1pk


At point 1.05 ish clearing for punch!

Jim

----------------------------------------Mire of the same. Gets old. The students have not even learned how ro stand-let alone move.