WCK and Ground Fighting

[Wayfaring]

On another thread that got out of control with challenges, videos were posted up of Randy Williams where he is teaching ground fighting. Here's one defense to the RNC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLWTQEoV9Nk

Here's another teaching some kind of MMA attack on the turtle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VikQ9NrNx8g

We have a Dave Camarillo BJJ black belt on here defending these videos and saying they represent valid options involving ground fighting in a real situation.

I disagree. I also was kind of amazed a Dave Camarillo black belt (CRCAVA) would state things like that.

Here's the exact problems I see with the two videos:

1) RNC - first, the non-choking hand is sunk behind the neck. This is very deep, and immediate attention must be give to unraveling this or you won't have time to throw anyone over your head before escaping because you'll be out. second, dropping to one knee like that will be an open invitation for even a BJJ white belt to jump on the back and sink hooks in, thus isolating the body and preventing being thrown over randy's head. this is completely the wrong thing to do there. even the standard step behind the guys legs, lift him and slam that's taught as a self-defense to the full nelson is a more plausible technique in that situation than what Randy is teaching.

2) Turtle Attack - randy starts with stepping on the hand, after which ends any valuable info being communicated. He is teaching a smash first, but there is no contact at all between randy's chest and the turtled guy's chest. Thus there is plenty of space for the bottom guy to escape. Next, he shows two "smash" elbows. The first is more normal, the second turns his back on the opponent to strike, with space. This is asking for his back to get taken. The leg grab and smash as well as the supposed ankle break are completely valueless and will accomplish nothing at all. Believing they will do something is downright dangerous.

Now I'm not making a summary judgement on all of randy's ground fighting stuff. I mean I'm glad he's at least addressing it, which is more than most. But why on earth he would be teaching that garbage rather than having a Dave Camarillo black belt teach better technique, I have no clue.

Ideas?

[CRCAVA]

Sifu Williams is addressing ground fighting in a Wing Chun format... For people that train WC.. If you are a student of purely WC these are effective options to defend yourself against the average "non trained" guy on the street. They are not designed to beat MMA or BJJ and Randy never claims they will either. Again as previously stated in the other thread these videos are being over analyzed... If you want to be a MMA student that's great and you can cross train with BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Wing Chun etc... Randy's ground fighting is to give a WC purist a fighting chance on the ground. It should be commended not bashed.

[LaRoux]

On another thread that got out of control with challenges, videos were posted up of Randy Williams where he is teaching ground fighting. Here's one defense to the RNC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLWTQEoV9Nk

Here's another teaching some kind of MMA attack on the turtle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VikQ9NrNx8g

We have a Dave Camarillo BJJ black belt on here defending these videos and saying they represent valid options involving ground fighting in a real situation.

I disagree. I also was kind of amazed a Dave Camarillo black belt (CRCAVA) would state things like that.

Here's the exact problems I see with the two videos:

1) RNC - first, the non-choking hand is sunk behind the neck. This is very deep, and immediate attention must be give to unraveling this or you won't have time to throw anyone over your head before escaping because you'll be out. second, dropping to one knee like that will be an open invitation for even a BJJ white belt to jump on the back and sink hooks in, thus isolating the body and preventing being thrown over randy's head. this is completely the wrong thing to do there. even the standard step behind the guys legs, lift him and slam that's taught as a self-defense to the full nelson is a more plausible technique in that situation than what Randy is teaching.

2) Turtle Attack - randy starts with stepping on the hand, after which ends any valuable info being communicated. He is teaching a smash first, but there is no contact at all between randy's chest and the turtled guy's chest. Thus there is plenty of space for the bottom guy to escape. Next, he shows two "smash" elbows. The first is more normal, the second turns his back on the opponent to strike, with space. This is asking for his back to get taken. The leg grab and smash as well as the supposed ankle break are completely valueless and will accomplish nothing at all. Believing they will do something is downright dangerous.

Now I'm not making a summary judgement on all of randy's ground fighting stuff. I mean I'm glad he's at least addressing it, which is more than most. But why on earth he would be teaching that garbage rather than having a Dave Camarillo black belt teach better technique, I have no clue.

Ideas?


Finally! Someone demonstrates some actual knowledge about the principles behind this stuff.

Bravo to you!

[LaRoux]

Sifu Williams is addressing ground fighting in a Wing Chun format... For people that train WC.. If you are a student of purely WC these are effective options to defend yourself against the average "non trained" guy on the street. They are not designed to beat MMA or BJJ and Randy never claims they will either. Again as previously stated in the other thread these videos are being over analyzed... If you want to be a MMA student that's great and you can cross train with BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Wing Chun etc... Randy's ground fighting is to give a WC purist a fighting chance on the ground. It should be commended not bashed.

That's kind of like a boxer teaching ground fighting from a boxing format. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to be doing that. Crappy technique that ignores the basic principles of grappling is still crappy technique.

If you really are a BJJ black belt, one has to wonder why you aren't advocating for using good, useful techniques that would add the the WC persons's toolbox, rather than teaching them techniques that will only work against someone who has no clue what he is doing.

You'd also think that a BJJ black belt would at least be discussing the flaws in these techniques, simply to give people an idea of what to expect from a more highly trained guy than just the "average" guy on the street that he is assuming has never had any basic training in how to apply a choke.

I find it interesting that wayfaring was able to dissect the underlying principles to point out the flaws in the techniques, but that a supposed Camarillo black belt was unable to do this.

[LaRoux]

Dude, it still boils down to skill, no secret technique,

Randy is giving these good people hope and confidence to walk the streets, I don't think those MMA guys are lurking on the streets, they make their money in the ring not jumping people on the street.

So , its all good right, Randy makes a little money , they learn a little. You can't make it to complicated, its only a seminar.

Technique comes before skill. You won't develop much skill if your underlying technique is flawed.

The good techniques are easier to learn because they actually work.

That's great that they are teaching confidence. However, I'd hate to be the guy that had my confidence raised by learning flawed techniques.

Crappy techniques might work on untrained guy, but I'd rather be learning techniques that work against both the untrained, as well as those with some knowledge.

[LaRoux]

LaRoux:

So if Randy´s techinques doesn´t seem to work for you, can you give us a Wing Chun example of how to do it?

I think Wayfaring gave a couple of the basic principles you would need to use here.

[LaRoux]

i.e., back thrust might be be most powerful kick around many kicks, but if use at the wrong timing and a wrong opponent, you have a lousy kick then, but does that make a lousy kick technique?

Should we not see someone's technique and discuss on what and how and where it is appropriate to use then to condemn it to be bad?

That's fine and a reasonable request.

Let me replace any reference to the word "bad" that I might have used with the phrase "wrong for the situation in which he is demonstrating."

The timing, sequence, and technical demonstration of things he showed were definitely wrong for those situations.

[LaRoux]

To start forgive my English cause I´m Portuguese, and I´m a student of Sifu Randy Williams, and I´m a representative of CRCA in Portugal, LaRoux I´m some kind of sick to listen you allways talking about Sifu Randy in the way, he is bad in this and bad in that, why don´t you prove to all of us you are better and accept the challenge for a duel with Sifu Randy or with John?, maybe cause you have a big mouth and little balls, instead of putting videos of Sifu Randy ou have the chance to put a video fighting him or John, and that way you prove to all of us you are better that him, and please don´t evade my questions and answer directly to them, I think you are a coward, can ou prove me I´m wrong?

It's nothing personal against him. It's simply about inappropriate techniques being shown in the wrong situations.

I think Wayfaring said it best, so I will simply quote him:


Right. How long has he studied grappling? As that is what he is teaching there. Is he currently studying grappling somewhere? Is he ranked?

Who's attacking him? I'm asking about fundamental grappling flaws.

That RNC choke escape won't work. Meaning if Randy gave me that position and we did a contest with him trying that escape I'd tap him out or put him to sleep 10 times out of 10.

All of which says nothing negative about Randy's WCK ability and instruction or character or anything else.

[LaRoux]

From the mount and guard:

Randy Williams demonstrates wing chun ground techs (http://www.woma.tv/woma/channels/7580/movies/2332.html)

The guard sweep actually would be OK if he wasn't forgetting a key element there, which is trapping the sweeping side arm that most people will use for a base.

The escape from the mount will lead to a triangle or a complete face punching with your arm trapped. Its hardly ever a good idea to bring in one arm between the opponent's legs.

[wingchunIan]

:(................

[LFJ]

The escape from the mount will lead to a triangle or a complete face punching with your arm trapped. Its hardly ever a good idea to bring in one arm between the opponent's legs.

Triangle from the mount is a sweet move. :p

And what was the foot trap for? Usually that's to prevent them using that leg to post out when you roll them that way. He's reminding the guy to put his hook in on that side while allowing him to post out with the other leg? lol

[LaRoux]

And what was the foot trap for? Usually that's to prevent them using that leg to post out when you roll them that way. He's reminding the guy to put his hook in on that side while allowing him to post out with the other leg? lol

Good question. Maybe the "ranked" CRCA guys can explain what the heck was up with that and why anyone would do that.

[thedreamer7]

From the mount and guard:

Randy Williams demonstrates wing chun ground techs (http://www.woma.tv/woma/channels/7580/movies/2332.html)

The guard sweep actually would be OK if he wasn't forgetting a key element there, which is trapping the sweeping side arm that most people will use for a base.

The escape from the mount will lead to a triangle or a complete face punching with your arm trapped. Its hardly ever a good idea to bring in one arm between the opponent's legs.

From what I have seen on this youtube clip, he uses pressure more then touch, hence why he maybe explain the vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRYHOA_8aXA

[Frost]

From the mount and guard:

Randy Williams demonstrates wing chun ground techs (http://www.woma.tv/woma/channels/7580/movies/2332.html)

The guard sweep actually would be OK if he wasn't forgetting a key element there, which is trapping the sweeping side arm that most people will use for a base.

The escape from the mount will lead to a triangle or a complete face punching with your arm trapped. Its hardly ever a good idea to bring in one arm between the opponent's legs.

he also forgets to bring the guys weight foward in the sweep as well, as for the mount escape anyone fancy reaching between their attackers leg whislt getting pounded in the face from mount.....any takers???

seriously why try to reinvent the wheel??

[Wayfaring]

Wow - so apparently the thread I started where I spent all that time highlighting specifics of WCK and the ground game and pointing out fundamental differences between good and bad instruction got deleted.

Why?

That was valuable content. Sihing73 can you restore that thread? It's not fair to me or those honestly evaluating how to deal with ground aspects of the game while training WCK not to have that stuff available after I spent the time and expertise to post valuable content on it.

[Sihing73]

Wayfaring,

I had to delete something like 8 pages of that thread.
I have merged the original with this thread and left the beginning of that original thread.

If this degrades to another bout of chest thumping and challenges then those who make such challenges will have their accounts locked and banned and ALL of their posts on this board, not just in this thread, deleted.

As always, anyone wishing to discuss this further is welcome to contact me offline via PM or email.

[Wayfaring]

Wayfaring,

I had to delete something like 8 pages of that thread.
I have merged the original with this thread and left the beginning of that original thread.

If this degrades to another bout of chest thumping and challenges then those who make such challenges will have their accounts locked and banned and ALL of their posts on this board, not just in this thread, deleted.

As always, anyone wishing to discuss this further is welcome to contact me offline via PM or email.

Thank you - appreciate it.

[Wayfaring]

Just an open post to the CRCA guys here. I know you guys are circling your wagons because you feel your sifu is under attack.

I just wanted to publicly state that I think that Randy Williams diverting attention from normal topics to deal with the ground game is a good thing. More should do this.

The criticism to WCK sifus doing this is that they are teaching stuff that's not quite up to snuff compared to the specialists. So what? I'd so much rather have them addressing it and improving it incrementally rather than completely avoiding it. If it blows up every time its discussed then they are more likely to avoid it altogether.

[CRCAUSA]

I would agree with that and I appreciate hearing from someone that doesn't have an ax to grind. BJJ is great and no one here denies that. What RW is trying to do is innovate WC techniques into something that will offer some response in those situations. Obviously if we really wanted to learn BJJ instead of WC we would be doing that. Whether you agree with RW or not at least he is trying to advance the art and is making an attempt to keep up with the times. I know some martial artists that are locked into a more traditional system that has not kept up with the times and they are very happy also. That is the great thing about the martial arts. There is something for everyone as long as you are willing to get out there to sweat, train and sometimes get injured pursuing your passion.:)

[Francisco Silva]

:)

Wise thoughts



Francisco Silva

Wing chun forever

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just an open post to the CRCA guys here. I know you guys are circling your wagons because you feel your sifu is under attack.

I just wanted to publicly state that I think that Randy Williams diverting attention from normal topics to deal with the ground game is a good thing. More should do this.

The criticism to WCK sifus doing this is that they are teaching stuff that's not quite up to snuff compared to the specialists. So what? I'd so much rather have them addressing it and improving it incrementally rather than completely avoiding it. If it blows up every time its discussed then they are more likely to avoid it altogether.

The issue is when the basic core principles of grappling ( in this case) are either disregarded or not done properly in an "instructional".
I am sure that any WC practioner would state the same view when in an instructional they could see the core principles of WC being disregarded or not done properly.

[CarlosCrcaporto]

I agree with Francisco, wise words Warfaring, now you are saying things with no intention to attack anyone, see when we are clear when we want to say the other people can understand what do you mean, in that way I think maybe you agree there is some previus comments just to say bad things and to push down our system, so in that way I agree with what you have said now.

[Wayfaring]

The issue is when the basic core principles of grappling ( in this case) are either disregarded or not done properly in an "instructional".
I am sure that any WC practioner would state the same view when in an instructional they could see the core principles of WC being disregarded or not done properly.

Agreed.

And yet the words of Carlos Machado right now echo pretty loudly to me:

"A man coming into my world needs to see what he can do before he starts to learn what he can't do".

[CRCAUSA]

If one doesn't think his techniques are effective them don't use them. If one prefers a grappling art to a stand up art then by all means do BJJ. I have seen plenty of martial artists practice techniques that for me probably would not have worked well. It doesn't mean however they won't work for someone else in certain circumstances. I guess a lot depends on the person. It is not a reason however to criticize someone for trying to advance their art. I don't criticize them just as I don't criticize others that practice an older more tradional system. :)

[Wayfaring]

If one doesn't think his techniques are effective them don't use them. If one prefers a grappling art to a stand up art then by all means do BJJ. I have seen plenty of martial artists practice techniques that for me probably would not have worked well. It doesn't mean however they won't work for someone else in certain circumstances. I guess a lot depends on the person. It is not a reason however to criticize someone for trying to advance their art. I don't criticize them just as I don't criticize others that practice an older more tradional system. :)

And just to clarify, it is a perfectly valid strategy to punch a BJJ guy in the nose to keep him from tying up with you. And if you keep your head on the same level as them, you can stuff their takedown shots too. And then punch them in the nose.

What possibly could be more fulfilling than this?

[WingChunNovice]

I just wanted to publicly state that I think that Randy Williams diverting attention from normal topics to deal with the ground game is a good thing. More should do this...

I fully agree. He has contributed so much to the system, dedicating a big part of his life to it and he works to constantly improve himself, CRCA WC and his students. I have nothing but respect for him and his journey.

/salute
MS

[CarlosCrcaporto]

correctly right Warfaring, the fight situations are all different of each others, every fight is a new one, ok sometimes happens a situation close to another we have in the pass, but after all, they are all different, everything is possible to happen, so in that way I prefer to be prepare for everything and learn like I do instead to be jammed to an old system with 500 years old who works at the time but now needed to be updated to the fighting system of the running days.

[CRCAUSA]

A larger question would be who else out there in WC in actively working on using their WC for ground fighting? By that I don't mean incorporating techniques from other systems into WC but actually trying to use WC on the ground.:)

[Frost]

A larger question would be who else out there in WC in actively working on using their WC for ground fighting? By that I don't mean incorporating techniques from other systems into WC but actually trying to use WC on the ground.:)

a better question would be why reinvent the wheel? what randy is doing is showing inferior techniques to what already exists, many of which will get you hurt against someone with 6 months grappling training, why not simply accept ground fighting is not an area wing chun was designed for and move on???

[CarlosCrcaporto]

Well I think I already answer that, all system needed to be updated, and after all the groundfighting in CRCA starts to many years ago, I´m not saying we invent the wheel but we sure helped to improve it.

[Frost]

Well I think I already answer that, all system needed to be updated, and after all the groundfighting in CRCA starts to many years ago, I´m not saying we invent the wheel but we sure helped to improve it.

Now can showing inferior techniques help improve anything :confused:

[CRCAUSA]

RW is not trying to duplicate BJJ, that system is great just the way it is. He is trying to improve and update WC to offer something in a newer age against new fighting techniques. What is the alternative, just let someone work you over with no answer at all. My guess is if other WC instructors offered RW a better way to do it without leaving the WC system he would be most receptive. One of the great things about RW is he has an open mind. Something I have not seen with some other martial arts instuctors.:)

[CarlosCrcaporto]

If you think they are inferior that´s your problem not mine, how many of you try a technique in a real fight in the street? maybe you only try them in training or in competition, but in the streets the things are different, in the streets maybe somebody want to kill you and not just to win a trophy, in the streets the fights starts on your foot, and maybe, just mabe goes to the floor, but no one wants to be there, you want to know way? cause in the street the people have shoes to kick you and the floor is not soft like your gym so if you put me down to the floor maybe you hurt me, but for sure you are going to hurt you too, cause the streets floor is hard and not soft.

[Frost]

RW is not trying to duplicate BJJ, that system is great just the way it is. He is trying to improve and update WC to offer something in a newer age against new fighting techniques. What is the alternative, just let someone work you over with no answer at all. My guess is if other WC instructors offered RW a better way to do it without leaving the WC system he would be most receptive. One of the great things about RW is he has an open mind. Something I have not seen with some other martial arts instuctors.:)

improve and update by showing bad grappling defences to grappling situation?? Im sorry but this is silly to me and a sign of a closed not open mind

An open mind accepts there's something different out there that the styles founders never saw and embraces that fact
A closed mind refuses to accept this and instead looks inside his system (because it cant be beaten) to show its still relevant... even if what he is showing simply isnt as good as whats has gone before

[Frost]

If you think they are inferior that´s your problem not mine, how many of you try a technique in a real fight in the street? maybe you only try them in training or in competition, but in the streets the things are different, in the streets maybe somebody want to kill you and not just to win a trophy, in the streets the fights starts on your foot, and maybe, just mabe goes to the floor, but no one wants to be there, you want to know way? cause in the street the people have shoes to kick you and the floor is not soft like your gym so if you put me down to the floor maybe you hurt me, but for sure you are going to hurt you too, cause the streets floor is hard and not soft.

they are inferior from a grappling point of view, hence you dont seen anyone doing that sweep in that way, that mount escape or that attack from turtle and so on

And if its all about the street fight and they are turtled why not simple kick them in the head? why show going to your own knees :confused:

[CRCAUSA]

Rather than criticizing someone for trying to update their system maybe you should offer solid WC technique that would be better. I imagine all innovators at some time have been attacked for their new non traditional ideas. All part of the game.:)

[CarlosCrcaporto]

We are not there to convince anyone to do it our way, I already have the evidence I need to know that works great in the streets, if you like it the way you do it, fine, keep it.

[Frost]

What are your skills to say that are inferior? What is your experience in fight? Did you try any of these theciques in real fight?

from a grappling point of view: let me see a decade of submission grappling (training and competing) same length of time in MMA and also some street fights, your turn

And its not my skill saying this its the following ( which would be blindingly obvious to anone without a vested interest): BJJ doesnt use these defenses, neither does submission grappling (NO GI) nor do you see them anywhere in MMA (where strikes are allowed

This should tell any sane person that these techniques might be iffy if arts that actually grapple for a living DONT use them

[Alvarini]

:)

Wise thoughts



Francisco Silva

Wing chun forever

Yes! Wise thoughts, Wayfaring! Thank you for your honesty!

[Alvarini]

from a grappling point of view: let me see a decade of submission grappling (training and competing) same length of time in MMA and also some street fights, your turn

And its not my skill saying this its the following ( which would be blindingly obvious to anone without a vested interest): BJJ doesnt use these defenses, neither does submission grappling (NO GI) nor do you see them anywhere in MMA (where strikes are allowed

This should tell any sane person that these techniques might be iffy if arts that actually grapple for a living DONT use them

I will not discuss it! I agree to disagree!

[CRCAUSA]

A couple of things come to mind. RW is not using BJJ but rather trying to find techniques that work within the WC frame work. He should be applauded for that in my opinion. RW is also not worried about using this in the MMA, this is not an MMA system. If you have some productive thoughts relative to using WC to help him out I'm sure he would consider it. Once again to RW's great credit he does have an open mind. He just wants to see if he can work this out within the WC framework. I would still be interested to know if any other WC instructors out there are also working on this? :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually what Randy is doing is great.
A system must evolve to deal with the situations that it hasn't been presented with yet and WC, like any striking system, MUST address the grappling/mma scenario of the 21st century.
That said, to have the issues of what he is doing pointed out is also VERY, VERY important.
If you want to know if what you are doing is gonna work on a person from a specific system then ASK and TRY it on THEM.

[Robinhood]

A couple of things come to mind. RW is not using BJJ but rather trying to find techniques that work within the WC frame work. He should be applauded for that in my opinion. RW is also not worried about using this in the MMA, this is not an MMA system. If you have some productive thoughts relative to using WC to help him out I'm sure he would consider it. Once again to RW's great credit he does have an open mind. He just wants to see if he can work this out within the WC framework. I would still be interested to know if any other WC instructors out there are also working on this? :)


You don't need to add anything to wc, he is turning it into a typical karate style, 1000's of moves that can't be applied because there is no core, Tai-chi calls it empty shell with no gung.

You don't need more moves, develop the inside, forget about outside shiny car, find the motor, stop carrying your car around, or you will never go anywhere.

[WingChunNovice]

Actually what Randy is doing is great.
A system must evolve to deal with the situations that it hasn't been presented with yet and WC, like any striking system, MUST address the grappling/mma scenario of the 21st century.
That said, to have the issues of what he is doing pointed out is also VERY, VERY important.
If you want to know if what you are doing is gonna work on a person from a specific system then ASK and TRY it on THEM.

Evolution is key!

/salute
MS

[JPinAZ]

Rather than criticizing someone for trying to update their system maybe you should offer solid WC technique that would be better.

IMO, this question goes 180 degrees the other way from what WC is, and answering it doesn't do much in ways of promoting good WC discussion.

WC isn't about taking techniques out of a form and trying to find applications for them (except maybe at a beginner surface level idea of WC). WC is about using and understanding principle-based concepts and strategies in a physical confrontation that leads to fighting most efficiently as well as effectively. It's applying those ideas that leads to understanding the times & space for the proper tool/technique to be applied and is what's really at the heart of what WC is all about. And many of these ideas are applicable on the ground.

Not getting into what will/won't work in RW clips as that's already been covered by others, but I will say these are things I don't hear RW talking about too much if at all from a WC perspective which is a little dissapointing.

[Wayfaring]

A larger question would be who else out there in WC in actively working on using their WC for ground fighting? By that I don't mean incorporating techniques from other systems into WC but actually trying to use WC on the ground.:)

working on this. but I entered into it in reverse, by cross-training BJJ. what I've found so far is there are certain fundamentals on the ground that are different that you have to learn. if you don't, you could do the exact wrong thing in a situation easily.

hand fighting in nogi and grip fighting in gi to me how I do it are 100% WCK bridge in the entry and movements until I have a grip. then the purpose diverts from WCK - to shut down space and get to the ground.

what I find most translatable across the two is elbow position.

[CarlosCrcaporto]

Well, the question I have is this, how many of you fell confortable with the techniques you learn to apply them in the streets? I feel great with mine I know my techniques work in the streets, I think most of the people are to far away to know WC or another martial art deeply, and I say this cause most of them just practice them, don´t study them like we do in CRCA everything in life have a theory behind everything, it´s not just like grab here, and I ask why? and most of the people say"cause it´s the way it´s done", NO, I don´t like this way, I like more, do like this, because of that or because of this, and then apply to real combat, to the real street fight, after all that´s why we all train martial arts, to defend ourselfs in the streets.

[Frost]

Well, the question I have is this, how many of you fell confortable with the techniques you learn to apply them in the streets? I feel great with mine I know my techniques work in the streets, I think most of the people are to far away to know WC or another martial art deeply, and I say this cause most of them just practice them, don´t study them like we do in CRCA everything in life have a theory behind everything, it´s not just like grab here, and I ask why? and most of the people say"cause it´s the way it´s done", NO, I don´t like this way, I like more, do like this, because of that or because of this, and then apply to real combat, to the real street fight, after all that´s why we all train martial arts, to defend ourselfs in the streets.

okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk anyone else getting a cult feeling here????????????

[YouKnowWho]

If we change the title of this thread into "Boxing and Throwing Art" (or even "Longfist and Throwing Art"), we may have less "style boundary" discussion.

When a boxer (or a longfist guy) tries to develop a "hip throw", A Judo guy may share his opinion. After all, the "hip throw" is what a Judo guy's "bread and butter". I think it's health to compare the difference between

- How a boxer may train his "hip throw", and
- How a Judoka may train his "hip thorw".

Of course, the whole discussion can be reversed.

When a Judoka tries to develop a "hook punch", A boxer may share his opinion. After all, the "hook punch" is what a boxer's "bread and butter". I think it's health to compare the difference between

- How a Judoka may train his "hook punch", and
- How a boxer may train his "hook punch".

If a Judoka and a boxer don't have problem to exchange idea, why should we TCMA guys have so much "style boundary" in our mind?

[Wayfaring]

Well, the question I have is this, how many of you fell confortable with the techniques you learn to apply them in the streets? I feel great with mine I know my techniques work in the streets, I think most of the people are to far away to know WC or another martial art deeply, and I say this cause most of them just practice them, don´t study them like we do in CRCA everything in life have a theory behind everything, it´s not just like grab here, and I ask why? and most of the people say"cause it´s the way it´s done", NO, I don´t like this way, I like more, do like this, because of that or because of this, and then apply to real combat, to the real street fight, after all that´s why we all train martial arts, to defend ourselfs in the streets.

I guess that would depend on the street. The one in front of my house is relatively safe. The ones my cop friends patrol downtown are a little rougher on a Friday night, but still relatively tame compared to larger metro areas with gang activity. In the US we're still the Wild West so there's still always the potential for squaring off against an 18 yr old gang member and getting shot by a 9 mil. Drunks in a bar? Not too much of a problem unless there are a lot of them fighting together in a close space.

Apparently my MMA coach after extensive study of this :eek: has come to the conclusion that punching someone on the street costs an average of $7000, at least where I live.

So I guess my answer to this is it depends on the street. And that I am much more comfortable with my techniques on the street than my wallet will be.

[CRCAUSA]

Good to hear from Hybrid Warrior and glad to see other WC schools are working on this subject. Always a touchy subject when someone tries to expand the envelope to deal with new things. Like anything WC techniques are simply tools in the tool box. You use what's needed but you have to know of them to use them along with the core concepts of the system.:)

[CRCAUSA]

I suppose Oyama's Kyokushin group could also be described as a cult. Evidentally some don't really understand the loyalty of the individuals to the group. Not based on blind reliance but rather due to a well thought out reaction to an organization that sets a good standard. The CRCA has a large number of students/instructors around the world. Many like me hold Black Belts in other systems yet the common bond here is to each other as WC martial artists. We all strive to improve our WC skills and appreciate RW constanly trying to improve the system. Maybe sometimes he does and maybe sometimes he doesn't but no one doubts in CRCA that he is at least trying.:)

[Sihing73]

Hello,

My, Sifu Chung Kwok Chow, has incorporated BJJ into his Wing Chun System.

Having said that, this is not something which I gravitate towards. I guess my idea if I go to the ground is to get back to my feet as quickly as possible. Even when I used to do Judo and competed I was known for being a very good thrower but lousy ground fighter. Just never did like the idea of being on the ground while someones friends could be standing around me doing other things while I was "wrestling" with their buddy.

My combat approach is to have integrated Silat, Kali and now Hsing Yi into my personal approach. This may not answer all situations, but it suits me and has served me well in real street encounters. Of course I almost always carry a knife so that sometimes can be a great equalizer ;)

You know, one thing which is sometimes taken for granted is the idea of using the hands in a ripping or tearing manner. No, not like ripping bark of of trees, but consider the grip someone can have who regularly lifts 45 pound or heavier weights using just the finger tips. How strong would that persons grip be and what effect would it have to have that hand latch onto some soft part of your body? As my Hsing Yi Sifu tells me, his art is a ripping, tearing art, the hand does not return empty. While not always easy to pull off, if he gets a grip on the side of your stomach you may consider it an effective method. Also, we do not train to grab with the entire finger, but just the last joint and hand, we refer to it as a dragons claw but perhaps others call it something else.

I would never try to fight a grappler by grappling and I admit if you put me in a RNC and I could not get to a knife I would be in a lot of trouble. If I end up on the ground I try to get back to my feet as soon as I can.

I guess I am pretty lucky that most "skilled" martial artists do not go around looking for trouble....................except when posting on internet message boardsm:D

[CRCAUSA]

Excellent thoughts and we also have similiar grabs in CRCA WC. :)

[Wayfaring]

I suppose Oyama's Kyokushin group could also be described as a cult. Evidentally some don't really understand the loyalty of the individuals to the group. Not based on blind reliance but rather due to a well thought out reaction to an organization that sets a good standard. The CRCA has a large number of students/instructors around the world. Many like me hold Black Belts in other systems yet the common bond here is to each other as WC martial artists. We all strive to improve our WC skills and appreciate RW constanly trying to improve the system. Maybe sometimes he does and maybe sometimes he doesn't but no one doubts in CRCA that he is at least trying.:)

Glad to see you guys around. We have a lot of lineages here but haven't had CRCA guys around to chat much yet. Hope all you guys stick around and contribute.

Don't worry about all the guys talking tough. They really aren't that tough. And most of them have personalities of a piece of sandpaper. But every once in a very long while they have an epiphany and say something semi intelligent that makes you think and you learn something from the interaction. And they represent a lot of WCK lineages, both Ip Man based and not. And of course occasionally they post up pictures of cute girls which makes up for the other times they are being complete chodes.

[CelticRedman]

My question has to do not with whether RW's techniques are valid or not (folks have already taken sides and I don't want to add to the fire :-) )... I'm more concerned with the "combination" of WC and BJJ" as a legitimate combatives method. For the folks who have significant experience in both, I'm curious how many folks have truly transitioned between the different style's techniques in an actual (as in "not MMA, not in class and not a demo") fight.

If you HAVE been in the thick of things, how did is REALLY work out? If you won, how? If you LOST, be honest and say "how." Was it because of the techniques, your skills or both (winning or losing)?

Thanks!

Carlos

[CRCAUSA]

Thanks for the welcome WayFaring. Lots of good experienced martial artists in CRCA all training in a great WC system. It's good to talk with others in WC that have a positive attitude. :)

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Sihing73;1212920]Hello,

My, Sifu Chung Kwok Chow, has incorporated BJJ into his Wing Chun System.

Having said that, this is not something which I gravitate towards. I guess my idea if I go to the ground is to get back to my feet as quickly as possible. Even when I used to do Judo and competed I was known for being a very good thrower but lousy ground fighter. Just never did like the idea of being on the ground while someones friends could be standing around me doing other things while I was "wrestling" with their buddy.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting.
Each to his own.
I began Wing chun in 76. We did wing chun related ground work then- and it is there in the mix
of training regimens since then. Best to stand and move with good structure but to be ready
with your own game if stuff happens.

[CRCAUSA]

Sounds like good WC logic to me.:)

[Robinhood]

IMO, this question goes 180 degrees the other way from what WC is, and answering it doesn't do much in ways of promoting good WC discussion.

WC isn't about taking techniques out of a form and trying to find applications for them (except maybe at a beginner surface level idea of WC). WC is about using and understanding principle-based concepts and strategies in a physical confrontation that leads to fighting most efficiently as well as effectively. It's applying those ideas that leads to understanding the times & space for the proper tool/technique to be applied and is what's really at the heart of what WC is all about. And many of these ideas are applicable on the ground.

Not getting into what will/won't work in RW clips as that's already been covered by others, but I will say these are things I don't hear RW talking about too much if at all from a WC perspective which is a little dissapointing.

Exactly, I wrote the same thing a few posts back, I think most people really don't know what we are talking about.
Its along the lines of what Henrick keeps trying to explain....it is all about what they are missing in their wc structure, not more techniques.

[CRCAUSA]

You are correct. WC is not a technique based system. If all you know is the technique within the form you have one technique. If you understand the concepts and principals behind each technique within the forms you have a hundred techniques. Example would be Gum Sau. One can see it in the WC forms as a block. Knowing the concepts behind it suddenly you see it as not only a block but as a take over trap, retrap and a conversion press as well among other things. :)

[CRCAUSA]

Right on HyBridWarrior. Gotta go train now. See you tomorrow.:)

[YouKnowWho]

what they are missing in their wc structure, not more techniques.

What structure can give you "Rear Naked Choke"? What structure can give you "Full Nelson Hold"?

TCMA is more than just to meet you fist with your opponent's face.

[LFJ]

Hello,

My, Sifu Chung Kwok Chow, has incorporated BJJ into his Wing Chun System.

Having said that, this is not something which I gravitate towards. I guess my idea if I go to the ground is to get back to my feet as quickly as possible. Even when I used to do Judo and competed I was known for being a very good thrower but lousy ground fighter. Just never did like the idea of being on the ground while someones friends could be standing around me doing other things while I was "wrestling" with their buddy.

The problem with your thinking is, what if you're mounted by some big dude who knows positional control? Try as you might, you're not getting back to your feet as quickly as possible without a clue about ground fighting. You're more than likely gonna end up unconsciousness from a face pounding or have something broken.

BTW, you realize there's a difference between street applicable BJJ and the sportive aspect which is not street safe? Street BJJ isn't about "wrestling" the opponent. If you create a chance to get up and go, you do. Be it by a quick joint destruction or just escape, such as reversing the mount. You don't have to then stay on top of them.

That's all I really have interest in using it for. At least that much is necessary, and it makes a good pair with VT, as it's also mainly concept based- but addressing a different situation than VT which you may find yourself in.

Wing Chun "techniques" on the ground like Randy Williams shows is nonsense a BJJ white belt could deal with, or almost any untrained person, and won't get you back to your feet as quickly as possible.

[anerlich]

There was groundfighting in Wing Chun and TCMA well before Randy Williams, according to a subsequently deleted post on the earlier version of this thread, began exploring it in 1989.

I had my first groundfighting lesson in 1977 from a former student of William Cheung.

The techniques involve mainly using the legs to keep the opponent away, versions of what is called in MMA the "up-kick", and a few leg entanglements and takedowns. The idea being not to stay on the ground but to give yourself time to get back up.

IIRC Renzo KO'd Oleg Taktarov in an early UFC with the up-kick. They can work very well if the other guy isn't careful about how he moves in. A Goes/Sakuraba match in Pride also demonstrated effective up-kicking by Goes against a pretty worthy opponent.

Even Antonio Inoki used this approach in his exhibition match against Muhammad Ali. Boring as h3ll, but it worked.

I don't really know if this sort of stuff is really WC or a generic TCMA approach, because I have seen similar techs performed by non-WC TCMA stylists as well.

In any case, it was around and well established while RW was still a twinkle in his father's eye.

How does this match up against a solid groundfighting and grappling system like BJJ, IMO?

Well, both my WC Sifu and I took up BJJ in 1998 and are now brown belts under John Will.

IMO WC is a standup pugilistic system. BJJ is a specialist groundfighting system. Trying to make WC work on the ground is like trying to make BJJ work standing up.

YOU ARE USING THE WRONG TOOL FOR THE JOB.

Trying to "expand the style" into new areas for which it is not designed is IMO a waste of time except for stylistic/religious fundamentalists and those trying to look for a niche in which to sell instructional DVD's or provide a marketing point of difference.

If you care more about fighting effectively than you do about being defending the honour of WC and the Shaolin temple, IMO you'll look at the most effective way to reach that goal, which IMO is to crosstrain in multiple arts.

[anerlich]

A larger question would be who else out there in WC in actively working on using their WC for ground fighting? By that I don't mean incorporating techniques from other systems into WC but actually trying to use WC on the ground.

Nobody, hopefully, for reasons I gave in my earlier post.

Some people like blazing trails when there's an 8 lane superhighway going in the same direction (the BJJ school down the street), but I'm not among them.

[LFJ]

The techniques involve mainly using the legs to keep the opponent away, versions of what is called in MMA the "up-kick", and a few leg entanglements and takedowns. The idea being not to stay on the ground but to give yourself time to get back up.

All of that is good, but what about when the opponent takes you down and is stuck on you? You can't just kick them off. So all of that is as useless as standing skills when someone is mounted on you. You have to know what to do. VT won't give it to you.


I don't really know if this sort of stuff is really WC or a generic TCMA approach, because I have seen similar techs performed by non-WC TCMA stylists as well.

We had a ground fighting thread in the Shaolin forum. Songshan Shaolin has a body of ground skills called ditanggong, not too dissimilar to street BJJ, with the objective of quick joint destruction or positional escape to get back to one's feet. Think, in ancient times, on a battlefield. You're rolling on the ground and another dude running by sticks you with a spear, or the guy you're tangled with guts you. The goal is never to stay on the ground as in sportive BJJ. There are some BJJ guys who make the mistake of training sportive BJJ so much they think it's street safe. Then they get the old GNP because they weren't focused on defending punches, which aren't allowed in sport.

[Wayfaring]

All of that is good, but what about when the opponent takes you down and is stuck on you? You can't just kick them off. So all of that is as useless as standing skills when someone is mounted on you. You have to know what to do. VT won't give it to you.

I really like the Gracie Combatives for the mount escape stuff and for preventing GNP. The Cliff notes are control posture, keep him from posturing up in mount, and if he does get there insert a knee between you and the incoming punch. Then the bridge and roll and hip escape are the two bread and butter escapes from under mount.

[LFJ]

I agree. I think any VT practitioner should at least have a working knowledge of something similar to the Gracie Combatives, to at least know how to survive on the ground and get back into VT territory.

[Graham H]

I think any VT practitioner should at least have a working knowledge of something similar to the Gracie Combatives, to at least know how to survive on the ground and get back into VT territory.

I dont think so :D

Where do you want to stop? To survive in modern society maybe you should train everything all together. Maybe you want to be a universal soldier or something :)

I'm happy with "just" Ving Tsun.

Most people will never need to use it for real so what other reasons are there. Enjoyment? Keeping fit? Socializing? All those I guess. Nobody is really fighting here are they?

Men have egos. Men like to think they can beat all other men and protect there morals and egos. If they lack something they have to fill the gaps with other things so they feel they can survive. Thousands of years have made us this way. Its evolution through natural selection and it has culminated on this forum with the question of whether "just" knowing Ving Tsun will see you right in a brawl if you get taken to the ground. LMAO

[adb]

Enjoying the discussion,
It seems that whether one is wishes to address groundwork with : using/ expanding theories or pricinples, using pieces of forms or integrating/reverse engineering other disciplines; at the root of it all, we are doing the same thing: addressing our challenges that we face today with that have changed since WC was created. For me, the main reason to train is for self defense, I think that we all can agree WC focus on efficiency is awesome, but to honesty address self defense today, you have to consider groundwork, guns, modern knives, and how criminals are attacking (larger groups...).
The fact that people in the community are trying to address and comment their best solutions should be encouraged... It can deepen our own understandings.

[LaRoux]

If you think they are inferior that´s your problem not mine, how many of you try a technique in a real fight in the street? maybe you only try them in training or in competition, but in the streets the things are different, in the streets maybe somebody want to kill you and not just to win a trophy, in the streets the fights starts on your foot, and maybe, just mabe goes to the floor, but no one wants to be there, you want to know way? cause in the street the people have shoes to kick you and the floor is not soft like your gym so if you put me down to the floor maybe you hurt me, but for sure you are going to hurt you too, cause the streets floor is hard and not soft.

Yep, the streets are definitely a little different than the ring. They are, however, light years different than the stuff Randy is teaching and the way you guys are practicing your stuff in your schools.

[LaRoux]

I would agree with that and I appreciate hearing from someone that doesn't have an ax to grind. BJJ is great and no one here denies that. What RW is trying to do is innovate WC techniques into something that will offer some response in those situations. Obviously if we really wanted to learn BJJ instead of WC we would be doing that. Whether you agree with RW or not at least he is trying to advance the art and is making an attempt to keep up with the times.

It seems a lot smarter to me for him to simply take the things he is learning from established grapplers and teach those the way that those grapplers are teaching him.

He's not ready to be innovating. When he gets to the same level as a brown or black belt grappler, then maybe he will be ready to innovate.

[LaRoux]

A larger question would be who else out there in WC in actively working on using their WC for ground fighting? By that I don't mean incorporating techniques from other systems into WC but actually trying to use WC on the ground.:)

I'm guessing most guys who do WC and get to black or brown belt level will probably start to merge the two in a constructive manner.

[LaRoux]

Well I think I already answer that, all system needed to be updated, and after all the groundfighting in CRCA starts to many years ago, I´m not saying we invent the wheel but we sure helped to improve it.

That didn't look like improvement to me. The guys who are improving thing are guys like Anerlich and his instructor who are taking the time and effort to actually become good grapplers first.

[LaRoux]

RW is not trying to duplicate BJJ, that system is great just the way it is. He is trying to improve and update WC to offer something in a newer age against new fighting techniques. What is the alternative, just let someone work you over with no answer at all. My guess is if other WC instructors offered RW a better way to do it without leaving the WC system he would be most receptive. One of the great things about RW is he has an open mind. Something I have not seen with some other martial arts instuctors.:)

The alternative would be to first learn the fundamentals of grappling.

[LaRoux]

If you think they are inferior that´s your problem not mine, how many of you try a technique in a real fight in the street? maybe you only try them in training or in competition, but in the streets the things are different, in the streets maybe somebody want to kill you and not just to win a trophy, in the streets the fights starts on your foot, and maybe, just mabe goes to the floor, but no one wants to be there, you want to know way? cause in the street the people have shoes to kick you and the floor is not soft like your gym so if you put me down to the floor maybe you hurt me, but for sure you are going to hurt you too, cause the streets floor is hard and not soft.

Been there, done that many times.

[LaRoux]

We are not there to convince anyone to do it our way, I already have the evidence I need to know that works great in the streets, if you like it the way you do it, fine, keep it.

I agree. These posts aren't for those of us who know these things aren't going to be that effective. Nor are they to convince the already convinced. They are to give information for those who may not understand the difference and are looking for something to expand their toolbox.

[LaRoux]

A couple of things come to mind. RW is not using BJJ but rather trying to find techniques that work within the WC frame work. He should be applauded for that in my opinion. RW is also not worried about using this in the MMA, this is not an MMA system. If you have some productive thoughts relative to using WC to help him out I'm sure he would consider it. Once again to RW's great credit he does have an open mind. He just wants to see if he can work this out within the WC framework. I would still be interested to know if any other WC instructors out there are also working on this? :)

The guys who should be applauded are the guys who go out and learn the basics and teach those basics as they are learning them, not to guys who aren't ready to be "innovating" and are simply making stuff up.

[LaRoux]

working on this. but I entered into it in reverse, by cross-training BJJ. what I've found so far is there are certain fundamentals on the ground that are different that you have to learn. if you don't, you could do the exact wrong thing in a situation easily.

hand fighting in nogi and grip fighting in gi to me how I do it are 100% WCK bridge in the entry and movements until I have a grip. then the purpose diverts from WCK - to shut down space and get to the ground.

what I find most translatable across the two is elbow position.

You are the person who will come up with actual innovations that make sense because you've put in the required work to develop strong grappling fundamentals.

[LaRoux]

My question has to do not with whether RW's techniques are valid or not (folks have already taken sides and I don't want to add to the fire :-) )... I'm more concerned with the "combination" of WC and BJJ" as a legitimate combatives method. For the folks who have significant experience in both, I'm curious how many folks have truly transitioned between the different style's techniques in an actual (as in "not MMA, not in class and not a demo") fight.

If you HAVE been in the thick of things, how did is REALLY work out? If you won, how? If you LOST, be honest and say "how." Was it because of the techniques, your skills or both (winning or losing)?

Thanks!

Carlos

You can get a pretty good idea of what this is like by watching the relatively few WC guys who are actually doing this (Alan Orr's guys and Sean Obasi come to mind offhand).

You will see that they generally use very strong grappling fundamentals.

[LaRoux]

You are correct. WC is not a technique based system. If all you know is the technique within the form you have one technique. If you understand the concepts and principals behind each technique within the forms you have a hundred techniques. Example would be Gum Sau. One can see it in the WC forms as a block. Knowing the concepts behind it suddenly you see it as not only a block but as a take over trap, retrap and a conversion press as well among other things. :)

WC may be a principle based system, but it is not a grappling principle based system. Trying to use WC principles in grappling makes about as much sense as does using boxing based principles in grappling.

[CRCAUSA]

An opinion coming from an admitted arm chair martial artist. Wonderful. As I said sometimes RW efforts to advance WC work and maybe sometimes there is a better way but one cannot criticize him for trying. And that isn't to say those practicing the various arts the same way they practiced 500 years ago is wrong either. If it works for them and they enjoy their system I say more power to them.:)

[LaRoux]

An opinion coming from an admitted arm chair martial artist. Wonderful. As I said sometimes RW efforts to advance WC work and maybe sometimes there is a better way but one cannot criticize him for trying. And that isn't to say those practicing the various arts the same way they practiced 500 years ago is wrong either. If it works for them and they enjoy their system I say more power to them.:)

Actually, I'm far from an armchair warrior, but that is neither here nor there.

What he can be criticized for is the way he is trying.

[WingChunNovice]

WC may be a principle based system, but it is not a grappling principle based system. Trying to use WC principles in grappling makes about as much sense as does using boxing based principles in grappling.

Angles, levels and physics do not change. Power principals can still be applied (torque, back up mass, marriage of gravity) for one example. Unless you work outside the realm of natural laws I would say MOST principles and concepts can be used in any situation.

MS

[CRCAUSA]

One other thought on RW. I have been through two other systems before this one and have been around a lot of really good teachers. I must admit RW has probably the most open mind of anyone I have met when it comes to WC. He has told us over and over that he does not object to those with rank in other systems teachning those systems along with CRCA WC in their schools. If one wants to learn BJJ, Kali, etc. he will support and encourage that. So it's not that RW objects to WC people learning BJJ he is just looking for a way to do the job with WC technique and I'm sure he is not the only one doing it. Seems like I saw W Cheung working on something like that also.:)

[Wayfaring]

I guess my idea if I go to the ground is to get back to my feet as quickly as possible. Even when I used to do Judo and competed I was known for being a very good thrower but lousy ground fighter. Just never did like the idea of being on the ground while someones friends could be standing around me doing other things while I was "wrestling" with their buddy.


One of the challenges with this approach is that getting back to your feet as quickly as possible actually can require some fundamental ground skills. Your average blue belt will be able to hold an untrained person down in side control or mount with technique such that they can't get to their feet, then advance the position, isolate a limb or the neck, and apply a submission.

Of course this isn't an all or nothing scenario. If you are bigger, stronger, more athletic than your attacker you can power or muscle your way up. One example of this is there's a clip floating around here somewhere of one of Phil Redmond's students Rashad playing around with Dale Frank - a Caique black belt in BJJ. Rashad does something athletic and gets to his feet from bottom.

But just know guys that in an average BJJ school, they will practice 3 min rounds of one person holding mount and the other trying to escape. Or side control. Or back. So they are live training how to hold you down. To me that means you should do that drill too and get enough instruction to succeed at it and get back to your feet.

[Wayfaring]

If you care more about fighting effectively than you do about being defending the honour of WC and the Shaolin temple, IMO you'll look at the most effective way to reach that goal, which IMO is to crosstrain in multiple arts.

Of course, but time and $$ prevent this in reality. I mean Graham's example of training 7-10 hrs WCK and playing league squash on other nights rather than being a gym rat and going to a BJJ class is probably more the norm than not. And that's a perfectly healthy thing to do.

So what to do?

The TKD mcdojos easily handle this by hiring a guy to teach a grappling class once a week, and many do affiliations.

But WCK is probably trained in the vast majority of situations in a small club environment. Not a lot of large mcdojos teaching WCK out there. So we need some more realistic recommendations for people.

[CRCAVA]

I totally agree with getting up off the ground is the best option for any striker. In my CRCA WC classes I teach takedown defense and stand up drills. This is done live... With resistance. Luckily for my academy we have a killer Jiu-Jitsu program. Many of my students train BJJ & WC. So the students that just train WC are having to practice there WC grappling techniques against my BJJ blue belts. Live training is the only way to really practice. We wear 6oz MMA safety sparring gloves to strike while we do this. My competition team competes a lot in BJJ & MMA competitions, I wish Chi Sau completions were more realistic with its rules... Who knows what the future my bring:-)

[LaRoux]

Angles, levels and physics do not change. Power principals can still be applied (torque, back up mass, marriage of gravity) for one example. Unless you work outside the realm of natural laws I would say MOST principles and concepts can be used in any situation.

MS

Angles, levels and physics may not change, but circumstances and applications do. The angles, levels, and physics of building a nuclear bunker are much different than those of building a helicopter.

Although you will find some crossover, many of the principles of grappling are completely different from the principles of striking. By the same token many of the principles of ground grappling are completely different than standing grappling.

Striking on the ground is also completely different than striking while standing.

[WingChunNovice]

Most people don't dedicate the time to get good in whatever their respective art is. I recently saw a video shot by Stephan Bonnar at an MMA fight where a mid 20's trained, professional fighter ended up fighting someone from the crowd with no experience and 30 years older than him. The younger trained man's ground game failed him miserably as he was beaten with basic brawling techniques by a spectator.

Point is its about the practitioner. How much time and effort do you dedicate to get good at your skill set?

Around 30 seconds in the younger pro fighter does get him on the ground. The older man gets back on his feet with seemingly just "heart" and proceeds to win by KO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saetQnDoEvM

[CRCAUSA]

The big challenge is to hurt your opponent in the shortest period of time. The old saying you don't box a boxer or try to grapple with a grappler is true. A purely WC guy is going to lose the ground game if it turns into nothing but a ground game. At that point having something is better than having nothing. It's also easy to put this into an MAA setting rather than a street setting. It only takes a second to rip the ear off an opponent if one has the mind set to actually do it:)

[Robinhood]

Angles, levels and physics do not change. Power principals can still be applied (torque, back up mass, marriage of gravity) for one example. Unless you work outside the realm of natural laws I would say MOST principles and concepts can be used in any situation.

MS

Yes I agree, 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, 1 body, gravity, the laws of physics apply the same to everyone.

Principles ? , what are they, different how?,

[WingChunNovice]

Angles, levels and physics may not change, but circumstances and applications do. The angles, levels, and physics of building a nuclear bunker are much different than those of building a helicopter.

Although you will find some crossover, many of the principles of grappling are completely different from the principles of striking. By the same token many of the principles of ground grappling are completely different than standing grappling.

Striking on the ground is also completely different than striking while standing.

At a base level both are structures constructed with those laws of physics. Angles are critical in success and opportunity, position recognition, weapon availability and targets are what makes you successful regardless of your position.

I have seen several MMA fights stopped due to illegal techniques like eye gouges, strikes to the back of the neck, etc.

No rules on the street ... If I can stick my finger in your eye I am doing it ... If I have to snap your finger back or rip your ear off I am doing it. If I have to bite whatever you present to me I am doing it. My technique ends when I get home.

[LaRoux]

Most people don't dedicate the time to get good in whatever their respective art is. I recently saw a video shot by Stephan Bonnar at an MMA fight where a mid 20's trained, professional fighter ended up fighting someone from the crowd with no experience and 30 years older than him. The younger trained man's ground game failed him miserably as he was beaten with basic brawling techniques by a spectator.

Point is its about the practitioner. How much time and effort do you dedicate to get good at your skill set?

Around 30 seconds in the younger pro fighter does get him on the ground. The older man gets back on his feet with seemingly just "heart" and proceeds to win by KO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saetQnDoEvM

Hhahaaha!

First of all, props to the old guy for stepping up.

Secondly, they looked pretty evenly matched in the standup skills department.

Thirdly, what ground game? There was no ground game there.

That was a great example of what happens when you get knocked to the ground and you don't have any ground game for a backup once you get there.

[WingChunNovice]

Yes I agree, 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, 1 body, gravity, the laws of physics apply the same to everyone.

Principles ? , what are they, different how?,

I cited several above for generating power ... I am not certain of your question.

[LaRoux]

I totally agree with getting up off the ground is the best option for any striker. In my CRCA WC classes I teach takedown defense and stand up drills. This is done live... With resistance. Luckily for my academy we have a killer Jiu-Jitsu program. Many of my students train BJJ & WC. So the students that just train WC are having to practice there WC grappling techniques against my BJJ blue belts. Live training is the only way to really practice. We wear 6oz MMA safety sparring gloves to strike while we do this. My competition team competes a lot in BJJ & MMA competitions, I wish Chi Sau completions were more realistic with its rules... Who knows what the future my bring:-)

If you have teams competing in MMA and BJJ tourneys, it should be a simple matter to post some of the vids of the techniques you are using.

[WingChunNovice]

Hhahaaha!

First of all, props to the old guy for stepping up.

Secondly, they looked pretty evenly matched in the standup skills department.

Thirdly, what ground game? There was no ground game there.

That was a great example of what happens when you get knocked to the ground and you don't have any ground game for a backup once you get there.

Everyone has a plan until they get hit ... that kid could be a BJJ black belt ... what is the Gracie saying? Each strike you take your belt level goes down one? Pro vs amateur ... like I said its about the practitioner.

[Robinhood]

What structure can give you "Rear Naked Choke"? What structure can give you "Full Nelson Hold"?

TCMA is more than just to meet you fist with your opponent's face.

Wow, you lost me. But yes structure can give you advantage of not having to be stronger or faster than your opponent and be in control of action without resorting to brawling tactics.

[LaRoux]

The big challenge is to hurt your opponent in the shortest period of time. The old saying you don't box a boxer or try to grapple with a grappler is true. A purely WC guy is going to lose the ground game if it turns into nothing but a ground game. At that point having something is better than having nothing. It's also easy to put this into an MAA setting rather than a street setting. It only takes a second to rip the ear off an opponent if one has the mind set to actually do it:)

Maybe it's just me, but when it comes to stopping someone from biting my ear off, I'd much rather have a little bit of something good, rather than a little bit of something bad.

[Frost]

At a base level both are structures constructed with those laws of physics. Angles are critical in success and opportunity, position recognition, weapon availability and targets are what makes you successful regardless of your position.

I have seen several MMA fights stopped due to illegal techniques like eye gouges, strikes to the back of the neck, etc.

No rules on the street ... If I can stick my finger in your eye I am doing it ... If I have to snap your finger back or rip your ear off I am doing it. If I have to bite whatever you present to me I am doing it. My technique ends when I get home.

the 90s called it wants its thread back please :confused::eek::rolleyes:

News flash i too can eye gouge, rip your ear off and bite you if we meet i the street, only difference is i have a decade of grappling experience so want to guess who will be in a controlling position (in the clinch or on the ground) to dictate who can and cant do the above???

[CRCAVA]

It really all comes down to how actually train... WC sucks if all you do is touch hands all day and BJJ sucks if all you do is roll around on the ground in your pajamas... However if you properly train for real scenarios in there prospective ranges of combat you will be ok in a real fight. The techniques are good, but the scenario you train them in has everything to do with the techniques success ratio. Luckily in CRCA WC we do address these scenarios and train as real a possible. We can't poke each other in the eyes, kick each other in the twig and Berries or bite. But we can say take the fight to any range of combat while striking and train for it.

[LaRoux]

At a base level both are structures constructed with those laws of physics. Angles are critical in success and opportunity, position recognition, weapon availability and targets are what makes you successful regardless of your position.

I have seen several MMA fights stopped due to illegal techniques like eye gouges, strikes to the back of the neck, etc.

No rules on the street ... If I can stick my finger in your eye I am doing it ... If I have to snap your finger back or rip your ear off I am doing it. If I have to bite whatever you present to me I am doing it. My technique ends when I get home.

I wonder who is going to be better at gouging your eyes out, biting your fingers off, or tearing your ear off, the guy who has learned good basics or the guy who doesn't really understand.

[LaRoux]

Everyone has a plan until they get hit ... that kid could be a BJJ black belt ... what is the Gracie saying? Each strike you take your belt level goes down one? Pro vs amateur ... like I said its about the practitioner.

Which further emphasizes the importance of learning to have good fundamentals under pressure.

[Wayfaring]

I wonder who is going to be better at gouging your eyes out, biting your fingers off, or tearing your ear off, the guy who has learned good basics or the guy who doesn't really understand.

You have to consider the delivery system used to deliver the gouges, bites, rips, tears. is it fundamentally sound to allow you to control your opponent while gouging or biting, or is more of an act of desperation?

For instance, under mount. If the mounted person is trained, ripping, gouging, biting has no leverage, and will just anger them and get you hurt. Instead, survive, collect yourself, escape.

[LaRoux]

Luckily in CRCA WC we do address these scenarios and train as real a possible. We can't poke each other in the eyes, kick each other in the twig and Berries or bite. But we can say take the fight to any range of combat while striking and train for it.

That's great in theory, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence for this actually happening.

[CRCAVA]

@LaRoux I can see you have a high respect for BJJ and you understand Dave Camarillos caliber of grappling. If you question my caliber of grappling here is a video from Camarilo about me... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVM6LMm9dpc&sns=em

[LaRoux]

You have to consider the delivery system used to deliver the gouges, bites, rips, tears. is it fundamentally sound to allow you to control your opponent while gouging or biting, or is more of an act of desperation?

For instance, under mount. If the mounted person is trained, ripping, gouging, biting has no leverage, and will just anger them and get you hurt. Instead, survive, collect yourself, escape.

Exactly. Of course, the "principle" based guys will think they can do the same things from bottom mount as they can from top mount.

[LaRoux]

@LaRoux I can see you have a high respect for BJJ and you understand Dave Camarillos caliber of grappling. If you question my caliber of grappling here is a video from Camarilo about me... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVM6LMm9dpc&sns=em

That's great that Dave thinks you are a dynamic teacher. That still shows zero evidence of you having teams that are training under pressure in live environments.

Sorry, but every instructor who has teams competing has videos of those teams competing that show the techniques they are using in those competitions.

[CRCAUSA]

Why is it the arm chair warrior expects everyone to provide him with evidence they know what they're doing when he has shown us nothing of himself in an MMA fight, sparring, working out in a dojo or what system he has even trained in let alone what rank he has acheived. Sorry no one has anything to prove to you.:):)

[Robinhood]

I cited several above for generating power ... I am not certain of your question.

Sorry , question was not for you, I agree with your posts.

The question was for the guys that think principles of physics are different just because someone is not standing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why is it the arm chair warrior expects everyone to provide him with evidence they know what they're doing when he has shown us nothing of himself in an MMA fight, sparring, working out in a dojo or what system he has even trained in let alone what rank he has acheived. Sorry no one has anything to prove to you.:):)

Extraordinary claims require evidence.
It's just that simple.

[Wayfaring]

@LaRoux I can see you have a high respect for BJJ and you understand Dave Camarillos caliber of grappling. If you question my caliber of grappling here is a video from Camarilo about me... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVM6LMm9dpc&sns=em

No questions from me on caliber. Camarillo is great - highly technical and has fought and trained high level MMA fighters. And if you're helping RW on the ground stuff over time I trust it will be fundamentally sound.

I prob will still discuss detail to keep it real and help the guys with less exposure get the right ideas on ground fundamentals into their minds though.

[LaRoux]

Why is it the arm chair warrior expects everyone to provide him with evidence they know what they're doing when he has shown us nothing of himself in an MMA fight, sparring, working out in a dojo or what system he has even trained in let alone what rank he has acheived. Sorry no one has anything to prove to you.:):)

OK, I'll post some for you then.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkBGHCbkYFk&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETImW2HxoUQ&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udwE_C7x3DA&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b99dhiee9gA&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ&index=30


Clearly, your guys are doing at least some realistic training against resisting opponents and you have some videos of this.

So the logical question would be if you are really putting together competition teams as you claim, why is there no evidence for that?

Are you lying about the competitions?
Are you puffing up your actual credentials?
Or are you worried that people are going to say, "Where's the wing chun?"
Or are you worried that people are going to say, "Hey, those techniques aren't anything like the ones Randy was showing."

Like I said from the beginning, something is fishy here.

[Wayfaring]

OK, I'll post some for you then.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkBGHCbkYFk&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETImW2HxoUQ&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udwE_C7x3DA&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b99dhiee9gA&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ&index=30



Looks like some pretty nice tactical drilling there. the gear looks very well thought through to allow for some great live drilling.

[Robinhood]

OK, I'll post some for you then.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkBGHCbkYFk&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETImW2HxoUQ&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udwE_C7x3DA&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b99dhiee9gA&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ&index=30


Clearly, your guys are doing at least some realistic training against resisting opponents and you have some videos of this.

So the logical question would be if you are really putting together competition teams as you claim, why is there no evidence for that?

Are you lying about the competitions?
Are you puffing up your actual credentials?
Or are you worried that people are going to say, "Where's the wing chun?"
Or are you worried that people are going to say, "Hey, those techniques aren't anything like the ones Randy was showing."

Like I said from the beginning, something is fishy here.

Their probably just working the same crowds, its good business, no big deal.

[WingChunNovice]

Sorry , question was not for you, I agree with your posts.

The question was for the guys that think principles of physics are different just because someone is not standing.

Thanks, yeah just had me confused. Multi-tasking at the office :P

[WingChunNovice]

Exactly. Of course, the "principle" based guys will think they can do the same things from bottom mount as they can from top mount.

Can't change the laws of physics LaRoux ... or can you? I am curious of your martial arts background and experience level?

Clearly you prefer to remain anonymous so no need to mention instructors but some idea or perspective of where you are coming from would be helpful to put relevance to your prolific posting.

I have trained in various systems since 1975. Mostly a Parker Kenpo background (25+ years), some FMA and most recently Wing Chun.

[LaRoux]

Can't change the laws of physics LaRoux ... or can you? I am curious of your martial arts background and experience level?



Are you saying you think the same principles apply to bottom mount as top mount?

[WingChunNovice]

the 90s called it wants its thread back please :confused::eek::rolleyes:

News flash i too can eye gouge, rip your ear off and bite you if we meet i the street, only difference is i have a decade of grappling experience so want to guess who will be in a controlling position (in the clinch or on the ground) to dictate who can and cant do the above???

All good points, its about the practitioner as I mentioned. Never under estimate your opponent and hey if "illegal" techniques work on the street why change them?

My point is no rules (for either guy) ... I am not knocking the ground game at all.

[WingChunNovice]

Are you saying you think the same principles apply to bottom mount as top mount?

Define a principal and let's discuss it.

Also that background would be helpful and very relevant.

[WingChunNovice]

I wonder who is going to be better at gouging your eyes out, biting your fingers off, or tearing your ear off, the guy who has learned good basics or the guy who doesn't really understand.

Yes good basics is key so clearly your question is rhetorical but understanding targets, weapons, opportunity and position recognition gets you through it.

[CRCAVA]

@LaRoux for one I don't post videos of my Jiu-Jitsu matches of my students or MMA on my channel because I don't want to give there opponents easy access to study them... But here are 2 videos for you. A male and a female fighter both BJJ, MMA & WC students of mine fighting MMA. It's time you post some videos of yourself or your students to build some credibility for your opinions.,. You have zero so far..

Odyssey Fighter Emily Dawson wins MMA title: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUysStlDr6w&sns=em

Odyssey Fighter Alex Taylor wins MMA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5icrTak-eoA&sns=em

[LaRoux]

Define a principal and let's discuss it..

You know the physics, leverage and angles you were talking about. Do you think the guy on the bottom can utilize those principles the same way the guy on the top can?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Laws of Physics must be quantified to WHAT you are applying them to.
In this case, bio-mechanics.
Striking from standing is different than striking from kneeling, from being on the ground, from being on top, from being on the bottom.
The principles may be the same, but HOW they are applied AND expressed are different.

[WingChunNovice]

Headed back to work here folks. I'll check back later and comment.

/salute

MS

[WingChunNovice]

The Laws of Physics must be quantified to WHAT you are applying them to.
In this case, bio-mechanics.
Striking from standing is different than striking from kneeling, from being on the ground, from being on top, from being on the bottom.
The principles may be the same, but HOW they are applied AND expressed are different.

Yes, with proper alignment and body mechanics I can hit pretty hard in a short distance (even from the mount). So I do agree how they are applied and expressed are different ... but they still apply :)

MS

ok ... back to work for real this time.

[LaRoux]

@LaRoux for one I don't post videos of my Jiu-Jitsu matches of my students or MMA on my channel because I don't want to give there opponents easy access to study them... But here are 2 videos for you. A male and a female fighter both BJJ, MMA & WC students of mine fighting MMA. It's time you post some videos of yourself or your students to build some credibility for your opinions.,. You have zero so far..

Odyssey Fighter Emily Dawson wins MMA title: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUysStlDr6w&sns=em

Odyssey Fighter Alex Taylor wins MMA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5icrTak-eoA&sns=em

Your videos gave my position all the credibility it needs.

Notice what you DON'T see in either one of those fights. None of the crappling or bong sao, lop sao, gua choy techniques that Randy was showing in any of the videos we have been discussing.

Thanks.

[CRCAUSA]

Face it fellow martial artists there is no point in asking LaRoue as to his training, ranking or martial arts background. He has none. He obviously sits around watching the UFC and youtube videos and equates that with the real training all of us do. Sad but true. :(

[sanjuro_ronin]

OK, I'll post some for you then.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkBGHCbkYFk&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETImW2HxoUQ&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udwE_C7x3DA&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b99dhiee9gA&list=UU4hX4Wm-b42WnfP4ahRfkFQ&index=30



The last clip was good, the rest were OK, but I am bias against most "armed" defensive training videos I have seen anyways.
The second to last video, the rifle VS knife one, I am not fond of at all.

[LaRoux]

Odyssey Fighter Alex Taylor wins MMA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5icrTak-eoA&sns=em

Notice what you DO see in that fight at the 1:12 mark. The guy on the bottom starts to attempt to shake the guy off over his head. Notice how he ended up getting arm barred because of that.

[Robinhood]

Are you saying you think the same principles apply to bottom mount as top mount?

Position is different, laws of physics haven't changed. Momentum, leverage, gravity , ..etc., how you want to apply them will probably change depending on position.

[CRCAVA]

@LaRoux, you are completely missing the point of me posting the fight videos... I posted because you were trying to call me a fraud.. If you want a WC fight analysis video I will make you one right now... Give me a few minutes to put it together for you... Wow you amaze me LaRoux... I've met some hard headed people in my life but you take the cake... Sit tight while I make this video for you. Ill sight over 20 WC applications in my video. When I'm done I wanna see your video of your fights and students so you prepare that for me while I get this for you..

[Wayfaring]

Notice what you DO see in that fight at the 1:12 mark. The guy on the bottom starts to attempt to shake the guy off over his head. Notice how he ended up getting arm barred because of that.

Disagree. He was very high in back mount. The escape strategy was proper. The execution was slow and he didn't keep constant pressure going in to the top guy, which allowed him to hip out and finish the armbar. He should have kept turning the corner driving into the top guy keeping the facing the same way instead of allowing the perpendicular angle. If he did it right he would push through the arm bar attempt and end up in guard and could start gnp.

The back mounted fighter has decent hip movement and flow - good ground fundamentals so turned losing a position into a submission.

In other words, it was a fight. ;)

[CRCAUSA]

CRCAVA.....Don't waste your time or effort on LaRoux. He is a wannabe, no training, no rank, no nothing as far as anyone can tell. He won't produce any video of him fighting, sparring or even training because he doesn't do any of them. The same as not being able to tell us what he trained in, what rank he has or who promoted him to that rank. All pretty basic questions for us real martial artists. Don't waste any time on him. There are other real martial artists on the forum to discuss technique with. :):)

[LaRoux]

Disagree. He was very high in back mount. The escape strategy was proper. The execution was slow and he didn't keep constant pressure going in to the top guy, which allowed him to hip out and finish the armbar. He should have kept turning the corner driving into the top guy keeping the facing the same way instead of allowing the perpendicular angle. If he did it right he would push through the arm bar attempt and end up in guard and could start gnp.

The back mounted fighter has decent hip movement and flow - good ground fundamentals so turned losing a position into a submission.

In other words, it was a fight. ;)

What he should have done is to have kept the top guy tight, and worked to get to a position similar to this and then escape from there (although they probably would have ended up in more of a lying on the side position).

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTGk7q5LWIuwSh4C4LXRiYsHPx0BCdKw N9i1cA2mROn7AJxwSIU

That is the starting position for good, safe back escapes and the reason that all BJJ schools teach the back escape from there.

[CRCAVA]

Looking forward to seeing your videos LaRoux... Btw my fighter in that video is a 6x national grappling champion through grapplers quest league. That guy was dead when he hit the ground with my fighter. I suggest you get to work on your videos..

[LaRoux]

One of the many reasons it's not a very good idea to try to dump a guy who has your back over your head:

Arm Bar from Back (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E1OZtv9GiE)

[CRCAVA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b99dhiee9gA&sns=em

0:40 - Double Chum Sun (Sinking Body) hock trap to a Double Leg takedown. Chum Sun is the forward bend and double low arm scoop seen in Movements 106, 107 and 108 of the Biu Jee form, which also conceals the Headbutt and other ideas.
0:49 AND 0:51 - Wahng Gyeuk - Movements 74/75 and 87/88 of the Chum Kiu form. Also appears in Movement 108 of the Biu Jee form.
0:52 AND 0:56 - Dai Huen Sau Ankle Trap. Dai Huen Sau is hidden in the circling closures of all the low strikes at the end of sequences in Siu Leem Tau, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee.
1:05 Lau Sut Soh (Chum Kiu Movements 73/74/86/87) drop to the hip with Jeep Sau (Chum Kiu Movement 15-17/38-40, Mook Yan Joang Movements 84/87) Push/Pull to "Turn the Steering Wheel" idea of the Choh Ma Pai Jahng pivots in Movements 10-12 and 33-35 of Part 1 of the Chum Kiu form.
1:15 - Wahng Gyeuk off Rear leg as in Chum Kiu Movements 74 and 87/Biu Jee Movement 108.
1:26 - Tiu Gyeuk - Mook Yan Joang Movements 67/69
1:30 - Double Chum Sun (Sinking Body) hock trap to a Double Leg takedown using Juen Bock Front Shoulder leverage (Movements 103-105 of the Chum Kiu form and 79/81 of the Mook Yan Joang form), followed by Fook Sut knee control (Movements 102 and 105 of the Mook Yan Joang form) with a chambered Loy Doy Gock Kuen punch (Movements 91 and 94 of the Mook Yan Joang form and 100 and 103 of the Biu Jee form)
1:40 - Double Jom Sau (Movement 59 of the Siu Leem Tau form) used to stop the Roundkick
2:00 - Toy Ma (Chum Kiu Movement 85) footwork with Dai Huen Sau Hock Trap (Dai Huen Sau is hidden in the closures of all low strikes at the end of various sequences in the Siu Leem Tau, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee forms)
2:10 - Tan/Pock Sau Vs the Roundkick (Movements 80 and 82 of the Mook Yan Joang form
2:23 - Hau Chong Ma footwork (Movement 93 of the Mook Yan Joang form) to evade the takedown
2:36 - Double Chum Sun (Sinking Body) hock trap to a Double Leg takedown using Juen Bock Front Shoulder leverage (Movements 103-105 of the Chum Kiu form and 79/81 of the Mook Yan Joang form)
2:46 - Hay Jahng Vs the Hook (Siu Leem Tau Ding Sau Movement 67)
2:57 - Ngoy Jut Gyeuk (Chum Kiu Movements 55/64 and Mook Yan Joang Movements 80/82)

These are just the applications I used based on ideas found in the empty-hand forms of CRCA Wing Chun. Believe me, I can justify many other motions based on the two weapons forms, but I don't want to waste any more of my time on you. This is strictly for those third-party readers to get a basic understanding of how CRCA Wing Chun can be used in Groundfighting and grappling, and before you say you didn't see it on the ground, believe me, if the rules would have allowed for groundfighting, you would have, and I would be able to justify every single move I did in terms of Wing Chun just like I did here.

[LaRoux]

Looking forward to seeing your videos LaRoux... Btw my fighter in that video is a 6x national grappling champion through grapplers quest league. That guy was dead when he hit the ground with my fighter. I suggest you get to work on your videos..

Your fighter did great. I can see why he's a champ.

He did exactly what he was supposed to do when someone does the "dump them over your head when they have your back" technique.

He did a great job of proving my point. Tell him I said thanks.

[LaRoux]

More total BS from the arm chair warrior. Where's your info on your background?:)

I'll let Emerson know that the next time I see him.

[russellsherry]

hi all if you watch seefs dvd very carefullly , he says the dvd is not for mma its a overall veiw oin how crca groundfighting for the street , not for ring at all , i think sifu done a very good job here , other pepole like rick spain go very deep into , bjj sifu rick had training under one of my idols the great john b will . groundfighting is important how we all do it is a personal thing russ

[Wayfaring]

That is the starting position for good, safe back escapes and the reason that all BJJ schools teach the back escape from there.

Sure that's the basic white belt fundamental position and escape. However, most BJJ schools also teach you a back escape peeling the guy off your back when he's too high. And yes that escape involves avoiding the traditional armbar from the back. I do this all the time and very seldom get caught in armbars, even from high level people.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A a certain point you all need to just agree to disagree because you are not going to convince each other.
Each side has stated their case, now it's up to the readers to decide which is the one they agree with.

[CelticRedman]

You can get a pretty good idea of what this is like by watching the relatively few WC guys who are actually doing this (Alan Orr's guys and Sean Obasi come to mind offhand).

You will see that they generally use very strong grappling fundamentals.

Thanks. I briefly saw Sean Obasi in Atlantic City in January when he greeted a WC friend of mine. Will look at what I can in re: him and Alan Orr.

[Sihing73]

Guys,

Discuss the techniques or leave.

I am getting tired of deleting senseless posts.

People who post here can do so without listing their credentials if that is what they want to do. This is okay with Gene and KFO so that's it.

If all you can do is call someone names and ask for video or credentials then please go somewhere else..............or I will help you leave.

This is the last warning. Next step is to simply ban you from this forum.

Believe me, all I would need to do is shoot a list of names and those, and associated IP's would be removed and banned from the board.

Your choice.

[Bernard]

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTGk7q5LWIuwSh4C4LXRiYsHPx0BCdKw N9i1cA2mROn7AJxwSIU



Ah another "tender moment" :D

[CRCAUSA]

Good techniques CRCAVA. It's great how you are adapting WC to your specific needs. Very progressive thinking.

[LaRoux]

Good techniques CRCAVA. It's great how you are adapting WC to your specific needs. Very progressive thinking.

I agree. That's exactly the type of thing I've been talking about. Techniques that work in a live setting.

Huge difference compared to the techniques in the original videos that were being criticized.

[CRCAUSA]

CRCAVA you might pass along some information as to where you came up with those techniques.:)

[anerlich]

All of that is good, but what about when the opponent takes you down and is stuck on you? You can't just kick them off. So all of that is as useless as standing skills when someone is mounted on you. You have to know what to do. VT won't give it to you.

Um ... yeah. I think I mentioned that I have trained BJJ and hold a brown belt. I know the limitations of the WC approach.


We had a ground fighting thread in the Shaolin forum. Songshan Shaolin has a body of ground skills called ditanggong, not too dissimilar to street BJJ, with the objective of quick joint destruction or positional escape to get back to one's feet. Think, in ancient times, on a battlefield. You're rolling on the ground and another dude running by sticks you with a spear, or the guy you're tangled with guts you. The goal is never to stay on the ground as in sportive BJJ. There are some BJJ guys who make the mistake of training sportive BJJ so much they think it's street safe. Then they get the old GNP because they weren't focused on defending punches, which aren't allowed in sport.

True. Some Silat lineages have some pretty effective groundwork as well.

[anerlich]

No rules on the street ... If I can stick my finger in your eye I am doing it ... If I have to snap your finger back or rip your ear off I am doing it. If I have to bite whatever you present to me I am doing it. My technique ends when I get home.

So you get taken down, mounted. Probably a bad idea to start a fishhooking and eyegouging contest from a position where the other guy can do the same thing from a position of advantage. You're nastier than him .... OK. So how did he get on top of you in the first place? And what makes you so sure he isn't at least equally committed to his survival and your destruction?

Why would a trained competition fighter be any less able than you to rip your ear off, snap your finger, bite or eye gouge?

Draculino has some good vids on Youtube about why this crap won't work against a decent grappler.

[Robinhood]

So you get taken down, mounted. Probably a bad idea to start a fishhooking and eyegouging contest from a position where the other guy can do the same thing from a position of advantage. You're nastier than him .... OK. So how did he get on top of you in the first place? And what makes you so sure he isn't at least equally committed to his survival and your destruction?

Why would a trained competition fighter be any less able than you to rip your ear off, snap your finger, bite or eye gouge?

Draculino has some good vids on Youtube about why this crap won't work against a decent grappler.

Well if you ever meet someone with real skill you will find out quickly that you can't do the same thing right back, and you will feel like you are a white belt all over sgain and nothing works.

[WingChunNovice]

So you get taken down, mounted. Probably a bad idea to start a fishhooking and eyegouging contest from a position where the other guy can do the same thing from a position of advantage. You're nastier than him .... OK. So how did he get on top of you in the first place? And what makes you so sure he isn't at least equally committed to his survival and your destruction?

Why would a trained competition fighter be any less able than you to rip your ear off, snap your finger, bite or eye gouge?

Draculino has some good vids on Youtube about why this crap won't work against a decent grappler.

You missed my point. My point was no rules on the street (for either guy) and that everything depends on the skill set of the practitioner and his or her dedication to their respective art(s).

I have a ton of respect for ground fighting ... I am not bashing it in any way. Ill check out the draculino videos, thanks for the lead.

[LaRoux]

Well if you ever meet someone with real skill you will find out quickly that you can't do the same thing right back, and you will feel like you are a white belt all over sgain and nothing works.

Real skill? You mean like a BJJ brown belt who has spent the last 8 or 10 years dedicated to taking people to the ground and then effing them up there?

[LaRoux]

Yes, with proper alignment and body mechanics I can hit pretty hard in a short distance (even from the mount). So I do agree how they are applied and expressed are different ... but they still apply :)

You can hit hard from the bottom mount? Well guess what? Physics, leverage and mechanics dictate that the person with top mount can hit significantly harder. He also has many options in terms of joint breaks and and chokes.

[anerlich]

You missed my point. My point was no rules on the street (for either guy) and that everything depends on the skill set of the practitioner and his or her dedication to their respective art(s).

The way you presented it earlier, that "point", if it deserves that description, was easy to miss. You were basically claiming that because you were prepared to fight dirty, that would give you some advantage over competition fighters.

The only way that would work is if the combat athlete were somehow bound by competition rules in the street. If you think that's likely, make sure you are fully insured.

[anerlich]

Yes, with proper alignment and body mechanics I can hit pretty hard in a short distance (even from the mount). So I do agree how they are applied and expressed are different ... but they still apply :)


If someone is good enough to take you down, and get and keep the mount on you in a non-compliant situation, you for all intents and purposes HAVE no alignment and no body mechanics. Best you can hope for is a punch using just your arm muscles. He has gravity on his side and can use body mechanics to punch. Unless you hold the shotput world record, all my money's going on the other guy.

Turning a grappling fight into a punching contest from under the mount is a really bad tactical move, almost as bad as starting an eye gouging or finger snapping contest from there. If you weren't able to KO him while the fight was still standing, your chances of doing so after he's taken you down and mounted you are basically nonexistent.

You lack basic understanding of positional control. If you claim to respect grappling arts, then for f***s sake go and study them enough to understand the basic principles thereof.

I myself had over 20 years experience in striking arts when I started BJJ. I quickly found that that experience was not a lot of help, and in some ways it was a hindrance as there were quite a few things I had to unlearn or seriously modify.

[anerlich]

Of course, but time and $$ prevent this in reality. I mean Graham's example of training 7-10 hrs WCK and playing league squash on other nights rather than being a gym rat and going to a BJJ class is probably more the norm than not. And that's a perfectly healthy thing to do.

So what to do?

The TKD mcdojos easily handle this by hiring a guy to teach a grappling class once a week, and many do affiliations.

But WCK is probably trained in the vast majority of situations in a small club environment. Not a lot of large mcdojos teaching WCK out there. So we need some more realistic recommendations for people.

My WC instructor is a Machado BJJ affiliate. He runs 3 BJJ classes a week one a daytime I can't get to, plus has an excellent wrestling coach (Persian, started wrestling when he was four) who teaches several classes a week also - Killer strength and cardio workouts as well as solid technique.

I found this still wasn't enough, and to improve in BJJ at a pace I was happy with I had to seek additional instruction at a school run by a senior black belt.

Basically, IMO, you have your own goals. Your Sifu may only be able to help you with some of them, and you may have to make your own arrangements to get where you want to be.

Ultimately responsibility for your success in training is yours, not your Sifu's.

[anerlich]

Well if you ever meet someone with real skill you will find out quickly that you can't do the same thing right back, and you will feel like you are a white belt all over sgain and nothing works.

If you've been following the discussion, I've already taken this person down and got mount on him, despite his "real skill". If I get this far on a person with "real skill", I reckon I rate as a purple belt at least ...

So I can take this person with "real skill" down and mount him, but then somehow find that he can eyegouge and fishhook me while I can't do it to him?

[Sean66]

Good posts anerlich.

Although the strategies are different, I see a lot of similarities in ving tsun and bjj - use of leverage and alignment to gain positional control while/or before striking (in ving tsun) or submitting (in street bjj).

[WingChunNovice]

You can hit hard from the bottom mount? Well guess what? Physics, leverage and mechanics dictate that the person with top mount can hit significantly harder. He also has many options in terms of joint breaks and and chokes.

I didn't say bottom ... please don't put words in my mouth. Agreed that the person on top depending on skill level has the advantage.

[WingChunNovice]

The way you presented it earlier, that "point", if it deserves that description, was easy to miss. You were basically claiming that because you were prepared to fight dirty, that would give you some advantage over competition fighters.

The only way that would work is if the combat athlete were somehow bound by competition rules in the street. If you think that's likely, make sure you are fully insured.

Agree it's tough to misunderstand someone when you are reading text and seems people are quick to jump to conclusions. I understand passion in defending arts and positions, nature of the beast.

My last street fight was 22 years ago vs. a college football player. He went to the hospital and I went home. I would much prefer to share a pint and let things slide these days.

Getting old ... I train because I enjoy it, not to be the toughest man on planet earth.

[k gledhill]

Knowing a 'sporting' version of jiu-jitsu can get you in trouble without knowing 'street' jiu-jitsu. Even 4-5 years of sport Jiu jitsu you can get punched out easily during a 'street' engagement without knowing how to deal with a striking scenario.
A 4-5 year sporting jiu-jitsu student contacted the Gracies because it happened to him during a street fight....
So the Gracies put out a YouTube saying that learning the sporting defense for chokes, arm bars on your back will leave you wide open to striking in a real fight, plus being in a scenario of ground with more than one person involved in a street fight just emphasizes stand-up abilities...Ving Tsun. The two together.

[Wayfaring]

Andrew's on a roll and layin' out knowledge!!!

BTW for reference that "bro you fd up a long time ago" picture is a classic quote from Kurt Osiander, one of the main instructors at Ralph Gracie's school in San Fran. If you take a private from him, you will hear that phrase many, many times.

[Frost]

Knowing a 'sporting' version of jiu-jitsu can get you in trouble without knowing 'street' jiu-jitsu. Even 4-5 years of sport Jiu jitsu you can get punched out easily during a 'street' engagement without knowing how to deal with a striking scenario.
A 4-5 year sporting jiu-jitsu student contacted the Gracies because it happened to him during a street fight....
So the Gracies put out a YouTube saying that learning the sporting defense for chokes, arm bars on your back will leave you wide open to striking in a real fight, plus being in a scenario of ground with more than one person involved in a street fight just emphasizes stand-up abilities...Ving Tsun. The two together.

really how much sports and streets jits have you trained to make this statement?? 4 years 5? or does your experience come from watching videos of youtube and talking to other teachers at gleasons without actually ever grappling yourself :)

some of us dont need third hands stories in the subject, because we have watched our mates who do sports jits chokes guys out (and suplex them lol) in real street fights and go that for the most part the gracies are talking out their backside to make more money :)

[k gledhill]

really how much sports and streets jits have you trained to make this statement?? 4 years 5? or does your experience come from watching videos of youtube and talking to other teachers at gleasons without actually ever grappling yourself :)

some of us dont need third hands stories in the subject, because we have watched our mates who do sports jits chokes guys out (and suplex them lol) in real street fights and go that for the most part the gracies are talking out their backside to make more money :)



watch yourself...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e864iZ4sB8Q

another....http://youtu.be/8_IKRjNHkwg

[Wayfaring]

Knowing a 'sporting' version of jiu-jitsu can get you in trouble without knowing 'street' jiu-jitsu. Even 4-5 years of sport Jiu jitsu you can get punched out easily during a 'street' engagement without knowing how to deal with a striking scenario.

And a lifetime of jiu jitsu can still get you punched in the face as evidenced by Marcelo Garcia's one MMA fight and Roger Gracie getting laid out in the first round against King Mo.

It's just a hole to plug people. don't get taken down, mounted, and beat on.



A 4-5 year sporting jiu-jitsu student contacted the Gracies because it happened to him during a street fight....
So the Gracies put out a YouTube saying that learning the sporting defense for chokes, arm bars on your back will leave you wide open to striking in a real fight, plus being in a scenario of ground with more than one person involved in a street fight just emphasizes stand-up abilities...Ving Tsun. The two together.

Rener and Ryron are great teachers, the punch block stuff in their combatives is great and solid for mma/street, etc.

However, their marketing niche is different from their peers. Peers win international competitions and use that name to get students. Those guys don't compete as they'd get beat or at least be average, not the best in the world. So they market the "self-defense" angle, and do very well.

But it's not that cut and dry. Do you really think Andre Galvao or Roger Gracie is going to have a hard time in a street fight with their BJJ? I don't. Galvao's physical conditioning regimen for world championships puts his fitness on a level I don't think R & R will get to.

if you want real evidence, review the Metamoris competition between Ryron and Andre Galvao. And afterwards tell me just your general impression of which way you would rather approach it in a street fight.

[LaRoux]

Knowing a 'sporting' version of jiu-jitsu can get you in trouble without knowing 'street' jiu-jitsu. Even 4-5 years of sport Jiu jitsu you can get punched out easily during a 'street' engagement without knowing how to deal with a striking scenario.


This is true to some extent. Some guys who do tournament BJJ only, think that some of the crazy half guard stuff they do will wok on the street

If you never learn to mix in striking and other elements with your grappling, you probably won't have a good idea of what will work in more realistic situation and
will be at a disadvantage over someone who has done this. You will also have a higher risk of getting taken out by a striker while standing.

However, even a sport BJJ guy who has never done any striking in his life will be have an overwhelming advantage if he is on the ground and gets top position.



plus being in a scenario of ground with more than one person involved in a street fight just emphasizes stand-up abilities...Ving Tsun. The two together.

This is completely situational. If I have 2 guys and you have 1 guy, I definitely want to be on the ground. If you have 2 guys and I have 1 guy, I definitely don't want to be on the ground.

As far as standing vs. multiple opponents, standing grappling is just as effective as standing striking.

[k gledhill]

On reflection I remembered the first fight I had in the UK ( leaving the USA ) 15 yrs old involved a gang fight of school versus school at a dance. Due to my "sporting Judo" experience (no vt yet ;) ) when a guy lunged at me to hit me, I put him in a standing headlock straight away and that was it :D I couldnt throw him yet, but he hit me straight away in the eye :D I remember I saw sparks and was stunned as he tried to hit me in the groin repeatedly but missed...
I kicked into natural response and started to throw tight upper cuts at his face as we stumbled around me still holding him in a head lock ....not good. The fight got stopped quickly by teachers. After the incident I was introduced to the glass pint jug as a weapon when a group waited for us outside. I ended up running down a street being chased by guys with glass milk pints....:D memories.

[LaRoux]

On reflection I remembered the first fight I had in the UK ( leaving the USA ) 15 yrs old involved a gang fight of school versus school at a dance. Due to my "sporting Judo" experience (no vt yet ;) ) when a guy lunged at me to hit me, I put him in a standing headlock straight away and that was it :D I couldnt throw him yet, but he hit me straight away in the eye :D

Of course he hit you, you hadn't even learned the proper way to tie someone up in judo.

If you had at least gotten to the point of how to do that (which most students learn by 3 or 4 weeks), he wouldn't have been able to hit you.

[k gledhill]

Of course he hit you, you hadn't even learned the proper way to tie someone up in judo.

If you had at least gotten to the point of how to do that (which most students learn by 3 or 4 weeks), he wouldn't have been able to hit you.

Getting punched in the head can change the game plans :D

[LaRoux]

Getting punched in the head can change the game plans :D

Your game plan was wrong before you even got punched and it was the reason you got punched.

If you would have developed even the first 3-4 weeks of judo technique, there would have been no headlock and no punch. The fact that you got punched from a headlock shows there was no judo there in the first place.

[k gledhill]

Your game plan was wrong before you even got punched and it was the reason you got punched.

If you would have developed even the first 3-4 weeks of judo technique, there would have been no headlock and no punch. The fact that you got punched from a headlock shows there was no judo there in the first place.


My game plan ? okay thanks for that, all knowing one :rolleyes: I was 15 yrs old backing up a friend who just came up to me and some friends to say he just got jumped on the dance floor...we walk up to a group without knowing anything more...a few words spoken " is this all you got ? .." and < add fight here > :D

what game plan are you referring too ?

[LaRoux]

My game plan ? okay thanks for that, all knowing one :rolleyes: I was 15 yrs old backing up a friend who just came up to me and some friends to say he just got jumped on the dance floor...we walk up to a group without knowing anything more...a few words spoken " is this all you got ? .." and < add fight here > :D

what game plan are you referring too ?

The one in which after 3 to 4 weeks of judo training would have told you that you don't put someone in a headlock.

[k gledhill]

The one in which after 3 to 4 weeks of judo training would have told you that you don't put someone in a headlock.

Surprise attacks and a punch in the head can change things around quickly ...you know that.

[LaRoux]

Surprise attacks and a punch in the head can change things around quickly ...you know that.


How much "sporting" judo had you done by this point?

Is this the type of headlock to which you were referring?

http://www.fightingarts.com/content02/graphics/headlock2-1.jpg

[k gledhill]

Laroux I don't care what point you need to obsess on, go back to telling everyone they aren't perfect on the randy thread. Doing it on two threads now. I am not perfect :D

[Frost]

watch yourself...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e864iZ4sB8Q

another....http://youtu.be/8_IKRjNHkwg

umm other than their last name is no reason to listen to these guys neither has done much in straight grappling and the same in MMA, so they go the street defence route to pull in delusioned people who know nothing about grappling or MMA and are rather clueless......seem to have succeeded with you :)

[Wayfaring]

umm other than their last name is no reason to listen to these guys neither has done much in straight grappling and the same in MMA, so they go the street defence route to pull in delusioned people who know nothing about grappling or MMA and are rather clueless......seem to have succeeded with you :)

dude that's extreme. I've rolled with Ralek before and trust me you don't want any part of squaring off against Rorian's kids sport, street, or self-defense. they are legit.

[Sean66]

Personally, I find the Gracie combatives program to be excellent. Very, very useful stuff.

[Frost]

dude that's extreme. I've rolled with Ralek before and trust me you don't want any part of squaring off against Rorian's kids sport, street, or self-defense. they are legit.

what have they won, where have they competed??? they are probably legit blackbelts but these days thats nothing unusal and not enough to make you an internet place to go and learn from....would you bother seeking out someone who was a blackbelt who hasnt won a major international comp, produced any major players and not really excelled in MMA over say BJJ blackbelts who had competed and won and trained fighters....

or put it another way if there last names weren't Gracie would anyone really bother watching them

[LaRoux]

Laroux I don't care what point you need to obsess on, go back to telling everyone they aren't perfect on the randy thread. Doing it on two threads now. I am not perfect :D


Or maybe you were just blowing smoke about have the judo sporting background that supposedly got you in trouble in the street.

[Wayfaring]

what have they won, where have they competed??? they are probably legit blackbelts but these days thats nothing unusal and not enough to make you an internet place to go and learn from....would you bother seeking out someone who was a blackbelt who hasnt won a major international comp, produced any major players and not really excelled in MMA over say BJJ blackbelts who had competed and won and trained fighters....

or put it another way if there last names weren't Gracie would anyone really bother watching them

I think it's relatively easy to find out where those guys have competed before. the latest I saw was Metamoris. Here's Ryron's match against Andre Galvao - the top international competitor in his weight class:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMyIwSagb9I

Ralek beat Sakuraba in MMA.

Most train at Torrance because of an overall excellent program. you can see samples of their instruction at gracie university. they are really good teachers. many top competitors aren't.

Any one of those 3 kids could easily tool your average instructing BJJ BB.

[Frost]

I think it's relatively easy to find out where those guys have competed before. the latest I saw was Metamoris. Here's Ryron's match against Andre Galvao - the top international competitor in his weight class:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMyIwSagb9I

Ralek beat Sakuraba in MMA.

Most train at Torrance because of an overall excellent program. you can see samples of their instruction at gracie university. they are really good teachers. many top competitors aren't.

Any one of those 3 kids could easily tool your average instructing BJJ BB.

it seems they mainly compete in Gracie run comps such as metamoris, and sak had a sub locked in before the ref stopped the fight in order to pull up raleks shorts lol

My point is i dont know any big comp: bjj worlds, pan ams adcc etc they have competed in or trained guys to win, no one a the top in MMA or BJJ actually looks to them for training tips (renzo yes, rolyer yes, rickson if you can get time with him yes) but if these guys weren't named Gracie do you thing anyone would be watching anything they produce? there are much better teachers trainers and competitiors out there, and they make there money from guys who dont have access to good coaches and who think they are getting something special because of their last name

[Wayfaring]

it seems they mainly compete in Gracie run comps such as metamoris, and sak had a sub locked in before the ref stopped the fight in order to pull up raleks shorts lol


sak was still a tough fight even at his age and punch drunk status. and of course he's going to have a kimura grip locked through as much of that fight as possible with his "gracie killer" rep.



My point is i dont know any big comp: bjj worlds, pan ams adcc etc they have competed in or trained guys to win, no one a the top in MMA or BJJ actually looks to them for training tips (renzo yes, rolyer yes, rickson if you can get time with him yes) but if these guys weren't named Gracie do you thing anyone would be watching anything they produce? there are much better teachers trainers and competitiors out there, and they make there money from guys who dont have access to good coaches and who think they are getting something special because of their last name

they've got competitors in sport bjj training with them - they compete under Gracie Humaita. many top name black belts go there to train occasionally who are competitors. Javier Vasquez is under them who is a tough MMA fighter.

But hey, I'm sure you know more and could cruise on up to Torrance and blow through the place. Let me know how that works out for you.

[LaRoux]

The boys are solid BJJ blackbelts, but they are not world beaters in the BJJ competition realm. However, they and their father are masters in the realm of the business of BJJ. Very few, if any, other BJJ people can hang with them in the realm of business.

[Robinhood]

The boys are solid BJJ blackbelts, but they are not world beaters in the BJJ competition realm. However, they and their father are masters in the realm of the business of BJJ. Very few, if any, other BJJ people can hang with them in the realm of business.

Lol, I don't think you will find the best, looking in a ring, the best don't need want or need to prove anything to anyone else.

The best don't care about impressing other people.

[k gledhill]

Or maybe you were just blowing smoke about have the judo sporting background that supposedly got you in trouble in the street.

Yeah maybe you caught me telling porkies :rolleyes: let go of the keyboard and breath .....

[LaRoux]

Lol, I don't think you will find the best, looking in a ring, the best don't need want or need to prove anything to anyone else.

The best don't care about impressing other people.

Needing to prove stuff is probably one of the main things that makes someone the best in most areas of life.

It might not make for the best psychological makeup, but in almost all areas of endeavor, you will find the best usually have an underlying need to prove themselves.

[anerlich]

It is true that you can train sport BJJ and concentrate on techniques and strategies which have no place in self defence. Pulling guard by choice, going inverted, berimbolos, ...

However, similar criticisms could be levelled at your Wing Chun if you spent the preponderance of time doing forms and chi sao. same is true of many TMAs. A number of individuals on the forum ridicule any and all clips of lineages other than their own, while still posting hundreds of clips of chi sao from their own lineage as the supposed yardstick of Wing Chun badassness. Self defense? Move on, nothing to see here.

Many of the older and earlier non-Brazilian black belts took up BJJ after obtaining black belt or equivalent gradings in TMA's. The main reason stated? That their own approaches had significant holes where self defense was concerned, viz. the total lack of effective techniques for surviving on the ground. The Gracie challenge was alive and well in the early days, and, in the late 80's / early 90's at least, at the Machado schools purple belts were discharged with taking on any and everyone who walked through the door looking for a fight. Those punters came at them with all sorts of weird stuff, no concept of rules. Their BJJ had to work. That stopped when word got around that challenging a BJJ academy's fighters wasn't the fun night out they were expecting.

My own BJJ instructor has BB equivalent grades in karate, MT, and arnis. One person I would not want to fight, under any or no rules, armed or unarmed.

He's unlikely to be the only one, but John Will has experimented with and developed a number of strategies for grapplers to engage with strikers without taking significant damage on the way in, and how to tie them up so they can't hit once you get in there. Not that that's a huge mystery, boxers have been doing that for decades.

Is there a grappling student alive who hasn't heard of or looked at the Gracie Combatives? This is news?

[anerlich]

Lol, I don't think you will find the best, looking in a ring, the best don't need want or need to prove anything to anyone else.

The best don't care about impressing other people.

Rubbish.

You need to compete against the best to become the best, or be the best you can be, be it in a ring, at Metamoris or in a nameless gym somewhere. Steel sharpens steel, and all that.

Yours is a nice line for people who somehow expect to reach their full potential without testing themselves, but it's fantasy.

Hermits living in caves that practice Kung Fu alone and can beat everyone exist only in the movies.

The best may or may not be about impressing others, but they sure as h3ll are about testing themselves at the highest level.

[Frost]

The boys are solid BJJ blackbelts, but they are not world beaters in the BJJ competition realm. However, they and their father are masters in the realm of the business of BJJ. Very few, if any, other BJJ people can hang with them in the realm of business.

this is what i should have said, they are nothing unique or special and if there last names wasn't Gracie would people really bother looking at their products when their are legit national and world champs out there producing fighters over and over
(to wayfering)
and didnt Javier Vazquez get his start in MMA and his blackbelt from carlson before marrying ronions daughter...???? carlos Gracie, Sr. → Carlson Gracie, Sr. → Rodrigo Medeiros → Javier Vazquez

As for me rolling up to torrence and beating them, a) they would destroy me and b) i have access to better coaches if i want to get my backside handed to me, and thats my point they arent the best (nothing wrong with not being the best at all) and really no one would be listening to their opinions if their last name wasnt what it is

[Robinhood]

Needing to prove stuff is probably one of the main things that makes someone the best in most areas of life.

It might not make for the best psychological makeup, but in almost all areas of endeavor, you will find the best usually have an underlying need to prove themselves.


Sounds like a low self esteem problem to me.! Little **** syndrome, small man syndrome, anyway some personal problem with people who feel they need to prove themselves . And the funny thing is I don't think it helps them.

[Robinhood]

Rubbish.

You need to compete against the best to become the best, or be the best you can be, be it in a ring, at Metamoris or in a nameless gym somewhere. Steel sharpens steel, and all that.

Yours is a nice line for people who somehow expect to reach their full potential without testing themselves, but it's fantasy.

Hermits living in caves that practice Kung Fu alone and can beat everyone exist only in the movies.

The best may or may not be about impressing others, but they sure as h3ll are about testing themselves at the highest level.

LOL......No, you need to learn from good teachers.

Training like a caveman does not make you highly skilled,

[anerlich]

LOL......No, you need to learn from good teachers.

Training like a caveman does not make you highly skilled,

LOL, no you need to learn from good teachers and pressure test what you learn against good training partners. Not exposing your techniques to the widest possible audience is a recipe for unproven techniques. You can continue to delude yourself and others that you are the best if you never actually test that, like your group of the "best" who never work out with anyone who doesn't have the right decoder ring.

I think I said to you that being a hermit in a cave (caveman) was a bad idea. I guess you're not a fan of the paleo diet either.

The notion of this secret underground of ultraformidable martial artists who never show their stuff to or against anybody outside their circle, let alone anybody well known, is ridiculous.

You got to stop with these imaginary friends and train with some real people.

Everyone who competes in anything has psychological problems? Go to the mirror to see who really has issues with competition. Did you always get picked last for teams at school or something? Some other guy always got the girl you lusted after?

[anerlich]

And the funny thing is I don't think it helps them.

Unqualified and statistically unverifiable opinion noted.

[GlennR]

Sounds like a low self esteem problem to me.! Little **** syndrome, small man syndrome, anyway some personal problem with people who feel they need to prove themselves . And the funny thing is I don't think it helps them.

Well lets just give up all competitive sport then, oh and business... that's competitive.
And science, scientists compete to solve problems first... medicine as well!!
And the Romans, they were competitive as well..... and what did the Romans ever do for us!!!
All bloody competitive!

Because we wouldn't want to encourage small knobs would we.

Honestly, do you think before you type?

[Wayfaring]

The notion of this secret underground of ultraformidable martial artists who never show their stuff to or against anybody outside their circle, let alone anybody well known, is ridiculous.

You got to stop with these imaginary friends and train with some real people.


LOL Classic :D

[Robinhood]

Well lets just give up all competitive sport then, oh and business... that's competitive.
And science, scientists compete to solve problems first... medicine as well!!
And the Romans, they were competitive as well..... and what did the Romans ever do for us!!!
All bloody competitive!

Because we wouldn't want to encourage small knobs would we.

Honestly, do you think before you type?

Nothing wrong with sports, they are great , but I was talking about the idiots that can't see past their nose that try to assign more to it than is there.

[Robinhood]

LOL, no you need to learn from good teachers and pressure test what you learn against good training partners. Not exposing your techniques to the widest possible audience is a recipe for unproven techniques. You can continue to delude yourself and others that you are the best if you never actually test that, like your group of the "best" who never work out with anyone who doesn't have the right decoder ring.

I think I said to you that being a hermit in a cave (caveman) was a bad idea. I guess you're not a fan of the paleo diet either.

The notion of this secret underground of ultraformidable martial artists who never show their stuff to or against anybody outside their circle, let alone anybody well known, is ridiculous.

You got to stop with these imaginary friends and train with some real people.

Everyone who competes in anything has psychological problems? Go to the mirror to see who really has issues with competition. Did you always get picked last for teams at school or something? Some other guy always got the girl you lusted after?

Good luck with that, keep drinking the koolaid and see how much progress you make, then remember what you read a long time ago (from Robinhood ), and then you might reflect a little, and try to find out why you are moving backwards.

[GlennR]

Nothing wrong with sports, they are great , but I was talking about the idiots that can't see past their nose that try to assign more to it than is there.

Make your mind up.

You seem to be saying that its the competing in Martial Arts you frown upon.

But its ok in sport, business and science?

So why is there a difference?

What makes MA's so special compared to the above?

[anerlich]

Good luck with that, keep drinking the koolaid and see how much progress you make, then remember what you read a long time ago (from Robinhood ), and then you might reflect a little, and try to find out why you are moving backwards.

I've been reading your "insights" for a while, esp about chi and the rest.

Nothing there worth remembering, all of it best forgotten.

If you want to patronise someone, try a bit harder to sound clever, because you're failing badly.

So, if people compete and win, they are "moving backwards"? The inside of your skull mist be one f***ed-up place.

[anerlich]

Make your mind up.

You seem to be saying that its the competing in Martial Arts you frown upon.

But its ok in sport, business and science?

So why is there a difference?

What makes MA's so special compared to the above?

Yeah right. Lets' see how much further he can shove that foot into his mouth.

[Robinhood]

Make your mind up.

You seem to be saying that its the competing in Martial Arts you frown upon.

But its ok in sport, business and science?

So why is there a difference?

What makes MA's so special compared to the above?

It's a sport , nothing wrong with sports , I look at it like a sport, same as other sports.

Key ingredient is conditioning .

[Robinhood]

I've been reading your "insights" for a while, esp about chi and the rest.

Nothing there worth remembering, all of it best forgotten.

If you want to patronise someone, try a bit harder to sound clever, because you're failing badly.

So, if people compete and win, they are "moving backwards"? The inside of your skull mist be one f***ed-up place.


Lol.....If you call destroying your body and mashing your brains , so you can say I beat him once, moving ahead , go ahead. ....... Lol

Probably not much in your head worth saving anyway.

[GlennR]

It's a sport , nothing wrong with sports , I look at it like a sport, same as other sports.

Key ingredient is conditioning .

[B]One[B] of the key ingredients is conditioning.

Never mind, if you think secret, non-competitive training will give you a higher level of performance (martial) then you go for it.

[Robinhood]

[B]One[B] of the key ingredients is conditioning.

Never mind, if you think secret, non-competitive training will give you a higher level of performance (martial) then you go for it.

I think you are confusing training with competing , but anyway , if it only works when I am in tip top shape and under 40, ya then I don't think it is worth much. That's like saving money that will be worthless in the future.

[anerlich]

Lol.....If you call destroying your body and mashing your brains , so you can say I beat him once, moving ahead , go ahead. ....... Lol

Probably not much in your head worth saving anyway.

If that's what happened to you last time you competed, then I guess I can see where this morbid dread of it comes from.

Let's look at a short list of MA competitors whose lives have been impoverished, skill diminished and careers and reputations ruined by the foolishness of competing in martial arts or similar competition:

Huo Yuanjia (per Fearless)
Moshe Feldenkrais
Bruce Lee
Wong Shun Leung
Chuck Norris
Richard Norton
Benny Urquidez
Muhammad Ali
The Rock
Jesse Ventura
Gene Lebell
Gracie family
Machado family
Dan Gable
John Smith
Randy Couture
Marcelo Garcia
Robert Drysdale
Kazushi Sakuraba
Genki Sudo
Cung Le
Ronda Rousey
Alan Orr and his students
Rick Spain and his students
Phil Redmond
Joe Sayah
Many others

Yeah, In ten years or so I'll be so glad I aspired to be like and took the advice of robinhood, an anonymous poster on KFO who allegedly trains with and admires phenomenal but secret masters who almost certainly don't exist, rather than follow the examples and obvious road to perdition of those mentioned above. Hahaha.

Demonstrably, you are out of touch with reality and are talking out of your a$$. Anyone who heeds your advice would have to be a moron.

[Tom Kagan]

Ideas?
This thread is silly. There's a lot of platitudes, but not much actual discussion of the type for which you feigned you wanted. What the heck, I'm bored today. So, I'll bite:


1) RNC - first, the non-choking hand is sunk behind the neck. This is very deep, and immediate attention must be give to unraveling this or you won't have time to throw anyone over your head before escaping because you'll be out. second, dropping to one knee like that will be an open invitation for even a BJJ white belt to jump on the back and sink hooks in, thus isolating the body and preventing being thrown over randy's head. this is completely the wrong thing to do there. even the standard step behind the guys legs, lift him and slam that's taught as a self-defense to the full nelson is a more plausible technique in that situation than what Randy is teaching.

Meh.

He's not really being choked. Regardless of how easy it was to do in the demonstration, I observe him tucking his chin into the crook of the attacker's elbow and shrugging his shoulders. He has a few more moments to try something because of this.

Anyway, setting aside further dissection of the mechanics involved in the actual counter of the choke and the throw displayed, what I am curious of is the unbalancing. In the sequence of what is being demonstrated, I see the throw as too late: the attacker has already broken down the defender's balance by kicking out the supporting leg(s) and stepping slightly backward. Without the defender either regaining balance (what the attacker actually lets happen for no obvious reason), or possessing much better mechanics of the throw than what is shown, the throw will most likely fail no matter how the attacker reacts to the attempt. He could probably just stand there and do nothing to avoid being thrown.

As for the mechanics of what is shown, the throw is, in essence, seoi otoshi - a bad one, but that's what it is. In addition to finding better demonstrations of this throw, you can also find video examples of people being tossed off in a similar fashion while back mounting someone in turtle while hooks are already in. It is just as valid to speculate that, under this much quicker standup timing scenario with no hooks and with proper mechanics behind the throw, your suggestion of a counter will likely also fail. He couldn't probably do anything meaningful to stop being thrown.

Frankly, the "what if... what if... what if you try this and I try that" speculation game is tedious and boring, anyway. I'd prefer not to play it. :) How is balance realistically reestablished before attempting the throw? Why did the attacker step back in instead of taking another step backward?

Without those questions and possible answers, overall, the video is pretty unremarkable - one snapshot from one moment in time. It's barely worth looking at regardless of how much fun anyone may derive from saying "ha ha, he's not a real grappler", then reading through a sh!tstorm of some speaking in oft repeated, vague parables, with others pretending they're straight out of central casting hollering "you have offended the honor of the shaolin temple and my master." This forum doesn't have the moderating policy to support anything really amusing in that vein, anyway. :)


2) Turtle Attack - randy starts with stepping on the hand, after which ends any valuable info being communicated. He is teaching a smash first, but there is no contact at all between randy's chest and the turtled guy's chest. Thus there is plenty of space for the bottom guy to escape. Next, he shows two "smash" elbows. The first is more normal, the second turns his back on the opponent to strike, with space. This is asking for his back to get taken. The leg grab and smash as well as the supposed ankle break are completely valueless and will accomplish nothing at all. Believing they will do something is downright dangerous.

Again, meh.

Personally, I'd let the lack of top control slide: it's just a demonstration. There are more than a few examples of top caliber people demonstrating various things while leaving top control out. The ride makes it somewhat harder to exaggerate what someone really wants to show for the sake of a clearer demonstration. To me, establishing momentary control for any technique to work beautifully in any situation is implied. There's no particular reason to hold this video to an arbitrarily higher explicit standard to show this.

Still, in essence, this video is just a bunch of random finishing moves strung together. From my perspective, there are no particularly interesting questions asked and none answered. Ultimately, it's just another unremarkable video. But, is it valueless? This question calls for yet more "what if" speculation. It may be interesting to some, but, for me, I don't need more ideas on how to assault someone already defenseless.

However, if you instead see someone trying to fight back, that's your prerogative. I suppose, if you weren't asking me to offer conjecture on such a speculation, I might, hypothetically, agree with you, but that's merely supposition on my part.

[Vajramusti]

This thread is silly.

Still, in essence, this video is just a bunch of randoS finishing moves strung together. From my perspective, there are no particularly interesting questions asked and none answered. Ultimately, it's just another unremarkable video. But, is it valueless? This question calls for yet more "what if" speculation. It may be interesting to some, but, for me, I don't need more ideas on how to assault someone already defenseless.

However, if you instead see someone trying to fight back, that's your prerogative. I suppose, if you weren't asking me to offer conjecture on your speculation, I might, hypothetically, agree with you, but that's merely supposition on my part.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yup -both you and Warfarin must have time on tour hands.

Thread- sill? Aren't most of them?

[Robinhood]

If that's what happened to you last time you competed, then I guess I can see where this morbid dread of it comes from.

Let's look at a short list of MA competitors whose lives have been impoverished, skill diminished and careers and reputations ruined by the foolishness of competing in martial arts or similar competition:

Huo Yuanjia (per Fearless)
Moshe Feldenkrais
Bruce Lee
Wong Shun Leung
Chuck Norris
Richard Norton
Benny Urquidez
Muhammad Ali
The Rock
Jesse Ventura
Gene Lebell
Gracie family
Machado family
Dan Gable
John Smith
Randy Couture
Marcelo Garcia
Robert Drysdale
Kazushi Sakuraba
Genki Sudo
Cung Le
Ronda Rousey
Alan Orr and his students
Rick Spain and his students
Phil Redmond
Joe Sayah
Many others

Yeah, In ten years or so I'll be so glad I aspired to be like and took the advice of robinhood, an anonymous poster on KFO who allegedly trains with and admires phenomenal but secret masters who almost certainly don't exist, rather than follow the examples and obvious road to perdition of those mentioned above. Hahaha.

Demonstrably, you are out of touch with reality and are talking out of your a$$. Anyone who heeds your advice would have to be a moron.


What are you listing, people who became popular and who's abilities are left in the past. Sure you become popular and then wash out because of your age, only to be has beens. , that is just what I was talking about. But if you want to sacrifice your body and health for money and fame, go ahead.

[Wayfaring]

This thread is silly. There's a lot of platitudes, but not much actual discussion of the type for which you feigned you wanted. What the heck, I'm bored today. So, I'll bite:

Thx for the response and the thought behind it. I do like this type of discussion better but threads go where threads go.



He's not really being choked. Regardless of how easy it was to do in the demonstration, I observe him tucking his chin into the crook of the attacker's elbow and shrugging his shoulders. He has a few more moments to try something because of this.

And the problem with his defense is he's missing things, and the missing things will get someone he is teaching finished quickly in a real situation. He teaches the proper side to avoid in the choke, and tucking the chin. However, the top hand position MUST be removed quickly (well, maybe not with the poor choking technique done against him), and the top hand position on a good choke will be not near the top of the head, but directly behind the neck, with head pressure assisting the choke.

If the choke was done properly, Randy would be out before he got anywhere near the second or third steps in the demo or the seio otoshi.



Anyway, setting aside further dissection of the mechanics involved in the actual counter of the choke and the throw displayed, what I am curious of is the unbalancing. In the sequence of what is being demonstrated, I see the throw as too late: the attacker has already broken down the defender's balance by kicking out the supporting leg(s) and stepping slightly backward. Without the defender either regaining balance (what the attacker actually lets happen for no obvious reason), or possessing much better mechanics of the throw than what is shown, the throw will most likely fail no matter how the attacker reacts to the attempt. He could probably just stand there and do nothing to avoid being thrown.

you correctly observe the missing topic of kuzushi (judo's concept of unbalancing as part of a throw) throughout the sequence. and that topic can make or break the technique.



As for the mechanics of what is shown, the throw is, in essence, seoi otoshi - a bad one, but that's what it is. In addition to finding better demonstrations of this throw, you can also find video examples of people being tossed off in a similar fashion while back mounting someone in turtle while hooks are already in. It is just as valid to speculate that, under this much quicker standup timing scenario with no hooks and with proper mechanics behind the throw, your suggestion of a counter will likely also fail. He couldn't probably do anything meaningful to stop being thrown.

The larger strokes Randy is teaching are proper, and probably learned from a BJJ black belt if I had to guess. I mean the basic idea of dumping someone over your head from back mount is very sound, and just proven out by Ronda Rousey in her first UFC fight. Actually, that fight is a great contrast between fundamental details of grappling and missing a couple details.

However, because Randy has not developed the fundamentals himself, his teaching of the techniques lack the fundamentals necessary to make what he is teaching effective. This is where you will notice significant departure in the instruction of true ground specialists and teachers.

Without proper detail of seoi otoshi, it's not too difficult to grip the neck and roll through the throw keeping grips ending up retaining back mount, which is now a worse position. Or inserting hooks right prior to the attempt and breaking down his posture or turtle (Galvao calls this "smashing the chicken").



Frankly, the "what if... what if... what if you try this and I try that" speculation game is tedious and boring, anyway. I'd prefer not to play it. :) How is balance realistically reestablished before attempting the throw? Why did the attacker step back in instead of taking another step backward?

Yes this is not online chess where we can Q-B4 check. But we can discuss fundamentals on the ground and be accurate about them so that people with less exposure can start to learn the difference between good fundamentals and lacking fundamentals. Your questions are valid from that perspective.



Personally, I'd let the lack of top control slide: it's just a demonstration. There are more than a few examples of top caliber people demonstrating various things while leaving top control out. The ride makes it somewhat harder to exaggerate what someone really wants to show for the sake of a clearer demonstration. To me, establishing momentary control for any technique to work beautifully in any situation is implied. There's no particular reason to hold this video to an arbitrarily higher explicit standard to show this.

Actually IMO the lack of top control illustrates exactly the point I'm making - missing fundamentals in the ground game and how dangerous it is to try and do self-defense in a real scenario with missing fundamentals. And pairing this with ineffective strikes from the top.

People that have ground fundamentals will see what's missing. People that don't probably will not. So to the trained it's obvious and doesn't need explaining. However, we're talking ground fundamentals on a WCK board, so the vast majority on this forum do not have trained good ground fundamentals. The ones that do are commenting on this thread, along with many others.



Still, in essence, this video is just a bunch of random finishing moves strung together. From my perspective, there are no particularly interesting questions asked and none answered. Ultimately, it's just another unremarkable video. But, is it valueless? This question calls for yet more "what if" speculation. It may be interesting to some, but, for me, I don't need more ideas on how to assault someone already defenseless.


The problem with this is that it assumes what you have done to that point will render an attacker defenseless so that you can finish them with no resistance. I saw no such moves up to that point that would do anything to disable a real attacker. Quite the contrary, all the space left from the top would make it SIMPLE to just stand up from the turtle position and take down your opponent or to start smashing from very close range.
It's dangerous not to have or teach proper fundamentals.



However, if you instead see someone trying to fight back, that's your prerogative. I suppose, if you weren't asking me to offer conjecture on such a speculation, I might, hypothetically, agree with you, but that's merely supposition on my part.

In this case I care much more about fundamentals than I do about the live nature of the resistance. If fundamentals are correct, then live energy will not do anything to the drill, it will look the same. If they are wrong, live energy will completely disrupt the sequence. It's a great way to test it though.

Anyway, just my .02 and conversation.

[anerlich]

What are you listing, people who became popular and who's abilities are left in the past.

After enough years, everyone's abilities get left in the past. Unless your training can reverse ageing and prevent death.


Sure you become popular and then wash out because of your age, only to be has beens. ,

I guess you'd prefer to never achieve anything, and become an ain't-never-been. It must be awful to have someone say "that old guy was really good in his prime, he achieved a lot" about you, rather than "that old guy can't do much now .... but he couldn't do much when he was young either."


that is just what I was talking about.

OK. You sounded really dumb.


But if you want to sacrifice your body and health for money and fame, go ahead.

Gee, thanks for your permission.

I'm 58 and still training 4-6 days a week. Hoping to do even more when I retire from full time work.

I went to my high school reunion last year ... and I'm in much better shape than the majority of my peers.

Still waiting for this "sacrifice" to kick in ... reckon I'll be waiting quite a few years yet. I'm betting the advantages of my training philosophy to longevity and vitality therein far outweigh your alleged "sacrifices".

[Tom Kagan]

Ha Ha, he's not a real grappler. FAIL!

Anyway, just my .02 and conversation.

Fixed.

As I mentioned before, those videos are a snapshot of one moment in time and are more or less unremarkable. I don't know Randy Williams. I've never sparred with him. In fact, I've never met him. I don't know what he can and cannot realistically do in this or any other context. However I feel regarding the level of his abilities is irrelevant and more of a reflection of my own biases and predilections at this point. Also, I have not seen enough video of him (or the right kind) to personally reach an enlightened opinion one way or the other.

Still, unless your critique of his abilities relies on evidence of Randy William's actual grappling skill, your assumptions are speculative and so is your conclusion. (This is in spite of your critique of what is shown in the videos.) Repeating your request for me to offer conjecture on your speculation doesn't change anything. But, who knows? Maybe you've seen a lot more of his stuff than me. If you have proof not yet discussed, I'd be interested.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending these videos at all. To cut through this thread's noise and get to what I think is the point of what you are trying to say, I agree he is going about things in a backward fashion. He needs to first establish credentials before doing such demonstrations. If you want entertain conjecture, why hasn't this happened? Did he sell the information contained in the videos? What other clips can be found from that moment in time? Now, the "what if" game could get interesting and amusing, regardless of the videos' inability to be either.

And, yeah: objectively, the demonstrations could be a lot better. If you asked Randy Williams himself, there isn't a lot presented here to believe he wouldn't agree. However, by the same token, you could objectively document and/or critique your list of assumptions required to reach your "ha ha" conclusion much better, also. Regardless of the level of probability of the items contained on such a list, if your assumptions were truly fleshed out in such a fashion, the sh!tstorm you were looking to start in this thread would be hilarious instead of kinda boring. :)

[Wayfaring]

I don't have a "haha" conclusion I'm shooting for. Way to be an @$$. If you read the thread I praise Randy for even dealing with the ground. That is more than almost any other WCK teacher out there. And he has it on video for critique. All good.

I am trying to raise the levels of ground fundamental understanding so that WCK people aren't sounding so moronic when discussing it (like on a lot of this thread). That's the purpose of the discussion at least for me. I'm sure others get other things from it. We've already been through this with the influx of CRCA posters and signups on the thread. My purpose is not mud slinging.

As far as "evidence of grappling skill", I mean come on, there's plenty of that evidence on the clip. That IS "evidence of grappling skill". Your critique of my posting seems to be ignoring that evidence.

But for other evidence, look to his instructional series:
http://www.shopwingchun.com/review-randy-williams-biu-jitsu-ground-fighting-1-2

Here by his own admission he has "reverse engineered other systems" and "found ways of using Wing Chun to achieve the same results". His resulting grappling "system" he calls "Biu-Jitsu". While I admire the energy to do this, and have similar thought patterns, I still see missing fundamentals in the grappling he teaches.

I mean this is not rocket science.

1. Learn good ground fundamentals
2. THEN reverse engineer.
3. Refine, rinse, repeat.

And kagan, you're PMSing.