70's was a different MA era

[Blacktiger]

I posted this on the black kung fu experience thread.

And then it got me thinking....wanted to see what others thoughts were.

I really like alot of the masters from this era. They seem to be cut from a different cloth. Alot of them were Vets who brought back their art from the Orient etc.

And I think you can get a feel for that in the way they train, no games.

Check out the Pete Siringano section - he is nailing Bob Long - the red head.

I think in the main today, sadly if you ran classes at this intensity it would leave you with very few students, only those who really wanted it.

Even though this is the stuff you actually need from a quality view point as a potential new student.

Just putting it out there, thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V0NX2ILihg

[jdhowland]

All of my teachers opened up their schools in the '60s and early '70s. It was a good era because there was so much enthusiasm about the arts, yet it was still relatively hard to find schools. None of my teachers taught for profit. I think that was a major difference. Nothing wrong with teaching as a business but these guys taught because they were enthusiasts themselves and they weren't babysitters. They kept to hard traditional training.

Now there are so many concerns about liability, catering to youngsters to pay the bills, rising costs for tournaments, etc.,.

Some things, I think, are better now though. Improvements in sparring equipment and more exposure to different schools allow for better information and cross training.

[Jimbo]

I began training in the '70s, and I agree that the attitudes were a lot different in the MA. No whining or BS was ever tolerated. Also, people weren't sue-happy like today. But I do agree with a lot of what you say, jdhowland


Of course, someone's inevitably going to say, "They weren't as tough as modern MMA, blah blah blah".

[Kellen Bassette]

Of course, someone's inevitably going to say, "They weren't as tough as modern MMA, blah blah blah".

Unfortunately a lot of the "old school" guys have been marginalized in the modern era. Sadly, nowadays, more of the guys with a "tough" mentality are likely to gravitate towards MMA simply because there's no place for them in many traditional "martial" arts schools. :(

[Jimbo]

Unfortunately a lot of the "old school" guys have been marginalized in the modern era. Sadly, nowadays, more of the guys with a "tough" mentality are likely to gravitate towards MMA simply because there's no place for them in many traditional "martial" arts schools. :(

That's a good point. MMA is a great thing, IMO. But it is sad that so many TMA schools must rely on kiddie classes to survive, and much of the ruggedness is gone from a lot of them.

[Kellen Bassette]

That's a good point. MMA is a great thing, IMO. But it is sad that so many TMA schools must rely on kiddie classes to survive, and much of the ruggedness is gone from a lot of them.

It breaks my heart. I love TMA. I consider myself a traditionalist. But I like to fight; I often find myself with the MMA crowd because too many TMA guys don't want to train for real.

I'm convinced the only thing MMA has on TMA is a willingness to do the real training you need for fighting. These methods came from TMA.

[YouKnowWho]

I had my commercial school from 1973. I still remember the following.

- A guy walked into my school and asked, "Can you jump kick at the celling?"
- A boxer came to my school and challenged me with boxing rule, no kick and no throw.
- If you can't kick as good as Bruce Lee did, you won't have any students.
- Back then, I sent my guys to fight Karate guys and TKD guys. Today, I send my guys to the MMA gym.

[SevenStar]

It breaks my heart. I love TMA. I consider myself a traditionalist. But I like to fight; I often find myself with the MMA crowd because too many TMA guys don't want to train for real.

I'm convinced the only thing MMA has on TMA is a willingness to do the real training you need for fighting. These methods came from TMA.


i'm not so sure they came from tma. why was judo created? so guys could spar and practice at full speed safely. the traditional style had techniques used for breaking and killing that couldn't be used in live training situations.

traditional karate masters gave funakoshi hell because he had his students sparring. traditional karate jutsu guys thought he was watering down the style. same with Korean styles. they may have done hard drilling - three star drills, live throwing, etc. but not sure how much in terms of hard sparring. seems like that was mainly wrestling styles and "sport ma" like judo, karate do, boxing, etc.

[SPJ]

I was in high school in the 1970s.

There were so many clubs.

Judo kendo shuai jiao kuo shu tkd karate fencing wrestling ---

There was just me and not enough time for all.

--

Both Japanese and Chinese arts were rooted in Taiwan.

--

Chinese arts from mainlands especially mantis was so popular in kuo shu clubs.

Japanese banned chinese arts during occupation till end of WWII

--

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The issue that many TMA that were based on striking had with sparring was that it wasn't full contact, that "pulled" and "controlled" sparring would take away from the "killer instinct" and water it down, the "kime" would be lost.
Of course going out and actually fighting was far more "observed" than some people would have liked.
It gave Karate a bad image to show that old school masters were *******s that went around beating up people or each other ( which they did a lot).
The silliness on their part was the reluctance to embrace protective gear for sparring.

[SevenStar]

I was in high school in the 1970s.

There were so many clubs.

Judo kendo shuai jiao kuo shu tkd karate fencing wrestling ---

There was just me and not enough time for all.

--

Both Japanese and Chinese arts were rooted in Taiwan.

--

Chinese arts from mainlands especially mantis was so popular in kuo shu clubs.

Japanese banned chinese arts during occupation till end of WWII

--

:)


to bad American schools aren't like that.

[SevenStar]

The issue that many TMA that were based on striking had with sparring was that it wasn't full contact, that "pulled" and "controlled" sparring would take away from the "killer instinct" and water it down, the "kime" would be lost.
Of course going out and actually fighting was far more "observed" than some people would have liked.
It gave Karate a bad image to show that old school masters were *******s that went around beating up people or each other ( which they did a lot).
The silliness on their part was the reluctance to embrace protective gear for sparring.

lol, not all of them. you saw that vid of the wu taiji master and the white crane master. I don't think either of them had beaten up anyone. ever.

[sanjuro_ronin]

lol, not all of them. you saw that vid of the wu taiji master and the white crane master. I don't think either of them had beaten up anyone. ever.

LOL, Too true !

[Kellen Bassette]

lol, not all of them. you saw that vid of the wu taiji master and the white crane master. I don't think either of them had beaten up anyone. ever.

Yes, they sucked not everyone fought.

There has been many cycles of combat focus and performance focus in TMA over the years. The Lei Tai was an ancient tradition in China. I've heard plenty of stories from Karate people involved in Dojo feuds during the 70's. Muay Thai has had a fight tradition for centuries and there's reason to believe it may have partly developed as an answer to Chinese arts.

Combat has always been a part of TMA, as has performance. What matters is are you honest about what your focus is?

[SevenStar]

Muay Thai has had a fight tradition for centuries and there's reason to believe it may have partly developed as an answer to Chinese arts.

people say Thai was influenced by immigrants from southern China. I doubt it tho. localized arts have a similar flavor. northern kung Fu looks similar. southern kung Fu has a similar look and characteristics. southern kung fu however looks nothing like Muay Thai. Thai looks like bando, golden boxing, bokator, pradal serey, etc. Muay Thai likely came from cambodia.

[Kellen Bassette]

people say Thai was influenced by immigrants from southern China. I doubt it tho. localized arts have a similar flavor. northern kung Fu looks similar. southern kung Fu has a similar look and characteristics. southern kung fu however looks nothing like Muay Thai. Thai looks like bando, golden boxing, bokator, pradal serey, etc. Muay Thai likely came from cambodia.

Many southern styles look like Muay Boran. Old Muay Thai has a lot in common with what we call "traditional" martial arts.

I've never heard any convincing evidence from any view point. But based on the appearance, the forms in Muay Boran, the fact that they used poems for naming techniques and other circumstantial evidence, I believe there was probably a Chinese connection. Of course there may not have been as well.

I would be more inclined to consider Burma than Cambodia for origins of Muay Thai.

[SevenStar]

Muay boran looks like the old kmher styles. look at bokator. it also looks alot like some forms of silat. these styles would have all originated from India.

[Kellen Bassette]

these styles would have all originated from India.

Is there any proof of that? We heard that about TCMA as well.....We can trace Japanese, Korean and Okinawan arts back to China. Is there any proof that Indo-Chinese arts come from India, or just folk stories to attempt to intertwine Indian religion into other aspects of non-Indian culture?

Come to think of it, I've seen very little empty hand Indian martial arts...can we look at IMA and see the connection to Indo-Chinese arts, the way it's obvious that Burmese, Thai, Lao and Cambodian arts are related????

[jdhowland]

Is there any proof of that?


No. No proof. Just speculation based on, as you noted, other cultural exchanges. In the case of martial arts I don't believe it was a matter of a single point of origin, just some technologies spreading and others arising independently out of similar circumstances. There has been a continuum of related cultures across Eurasia for millennia but that doesn't suggest a single point of origin.

[SevenStar]

Is there any proof of that? We heard that about TCMA as well.....We can trace Japanese, Korean and Okinawan arts back to China. Is there any proof that Indo-Chinese arts come from India, or just folk stories to attempt to intertwine Indian religion into other aspects of non-Indian culture?

Come to think of it, I've seen very little empty hand Indian martial arts...can we look at IMA and see the connection to Indo-Chinese arts, the way it's obvious that Burmese, Thai, Lao and Cambodian arts are related????

with this stuff there's rarely proof of anything, just as some say Japanese jujutsu had no Chinese influence and that out was developed by three physicians, and others day it came from China. much of the recorded Thai ma history was destroyed during war. as far as Indian arts, there are wrestling arts, striking arts and dances. what you'll see in them looks more like these styles than Chinese styles.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We need to understand that co-relation doesn't equal causation.
That said there is nothing new under the sun.

[David Jamieson]

Actually....

Dhyana entered China before mainstream buddhism got there.

Dhyana = Ch'an = Zen

Shaolin Kung Fu is buddhist.

Buddhism is Indian(Nepali) in origin.

Buddhism went mainstream in China around 500 CE but had been extant since 500 BCE

Does anyone think the other arms of practice never made it into China and elsewhere?

The earliest civilization known of comes from the Indus valley and was referred to as the Harrapan empire.

anyway, if one took the time to make the connections, they are indeed there to be made.

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1213153]?

The earliest civilization known of comes from the Indus valley and was referred to as the Harrapan empire.

QUOTE]

Good info but twenty years out of date. Civilization means living in cities and the oldest discovered (in Anatolia and the steppes of western Asia) are far older than Indus Valley civilization. A minor point but it shows that everything new and influential did not come out of the subcontinent (including Indo-European culture, itself). These settlements show that there was already a continuum of settled or semi-sedentary agrarian villages across Eurasia before the famous early civilizations began.

The reason I don't look for a point of origin for martial culture is that these folks were not geographically isolated and they traded with each other. There wasn't enough space on the map or completely forbidding topography to keep them from influencing each other.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Oldest evidence of civilization:
What is now modern day Turkey:
Gobekli Tepe

[Pork Chop]

I think it was the Tai people that emigrated from China to Thailand, not their martial arts.
I've seen it agreed upon that the Khmer are probably the origin for the southeast asian martial arts, but the Thais feel that they are the ones that perfected it - each region (even in Thailand) has their own particular take though. I see very little commonalities with east asian martial arts; in technique maybe, but the methodologies are night & day different.

The India connection might be pretty strong; however. Note that the Ram Muay/Wai Kru performed at the beginning of Muay Thai bouts depicts scenes from the Indian Ramayana. These myths don't play such a large part in China. Many traditional Muay Thai exercises & techniques reflect various yoga postures, many names are imported from Indian myths.

As far as the Harappan civilization not being the oldest - they were pretty sure of that back in the '60s, so 20 years might be generous.

[jdhowland]

.

As far as the Harappan civilization not being the oldest - they were pretty sure of that back in the '60s, so 20 years might be generous.



True. I just didn't want to sound demonstrative. You have to allow a couple of decades for the textbooks to catch up.

[Kellen Bassette]

I would like to actually see some empty hand IMA. I hear about wrestling, and striking, but never really see any. This is strange to me since India has such a long history; it seems if their martial tradition was so rich, more would be preserved. I feel like there should be more info and videos out there, perhaps there is and I just haven't found them yet. Still, there's plenty of info/videos from Burmese arts, where the history is far less known and the society far more closed than India...makes me wonder...

You see Kalaripayattu and various other weapon/theatrical styles but stuff that resembles Muay Thai, Kung Fu, Silat??? Please share the videos; I'm interested.

The idea that Cambodian arts originated from India, then gave birth to Thai, Lao, Burmese, ect, arts doesn't make sense to me from a geographical stand point. If you were to tell me Burmese arts originated from India then spread to Thailand, Laos and Cambodia; it would seem much more logical. Of course, martial arts don't necessarily spread in a straight line, trade, war and immigration come into play...but still, India to Cambodia then west? Doesn't seem probable 1000 years ago.

I suspect the IMA connection from martial folklore is more of an attempt to wed martial traditions with Indian religions that later migrated to these areas. It's just my suspicion, I have no proof; but thus far I've seen nothing to make me believe these arts are the least bit Indian.

[SevenStar]

look at Indian dance, and as chop noted, Yoga postures, the ram muay...that does not look Chinese. Muay Thai retained its popularity because it became a national sport. you don't hear much about bando, and before the 90s, you heard nothing about it. you never hear about golden boxing and most people have no clue that Cambodia even has martial arts, let alone can they name them. this being the case, it shouldn't seem odd that Indian arts were lost as well. I think a lot of people want to tie everything ma related to China, but the Chinese did not have a monopoly on war arts.

as far as the spreading goes, it may not have happened that way - but I'm pretty sure it didn't spread from China.

[Pork Chop]

True. I just didn't want to sound demonstrative. You have to allow a couple of decades for the textbooks to catch up.

Yeah, I've been noticing a confusing trend in Indian historical research though - people keep trying to push the dates back. Was watching a documentary on genetics research, tracking migration of people eastward. They mention the Keralans, how they are genetically very similar to the first people to leave Africa ~50,000 years ago, then they start talking about religious rites in Kerala, how those rites (may) predate formal language, and then they started talking about the Vedas. Very easy to get the wrong idea.
Another documentary claimed to have found the legendary home town of Krishna, underneath the ocean, thus an attempt to push dates back before 3000BCE.

There's been a lot of document research to see if the Upanishads & Bhagavat Gita even go back as far as claimed. Both have sections that date well into the Common Era.


You see Kalaripayattu and various other weapon/theatrical styles but stuff that resembles Muay Thai, Kung Fu, Silat??? Please share the videos; I'm interested.

I believe there is a youtube clip but it's been a while, let me see what I can do tonight if I have time. At the very least, the preparatory exercises for muay thai have a lot more in common with yoga than any TCMA.


The idea that Cambodian arts originated from India, then gave birth to Thai, Lao, Burmese, ect, arts doesn't make sense to me from a geographical stand point. If you were to tell me Burmese arts originated from India then spread to Thailand, Laos and Cambodia; it would seem much more logical. Of course, martial arts don't necessarily spread in a straight line, trade, war and immigration come into play...but still, India to Cambodia then west? Doesn't seem probable 1000 years ago.

You've got that backwards, the Tai people migrated from Taiwan, through south China, south through Vietnam, through Cambodia, and then west.
Military arts were picked up in Khmer, as was initial exposure to Indian culture..
When they hit the west, they picked up more Indian culture imported via Burma (some even migrated as far west as northern India).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahom_people

EDIT: re: forms in Muay Boran. There are many that wonder if this was a creation for the Ong Bak movie, because many traditional forms of Thai boxing do not in fact have forms. More common, instead, were "master techniques" (Mae Mai) - usually done with a partner. The "form" in the Ong Bak movie was really a collection of single techniques that may or may not have traditionally been done with a partner.

[SevenStar]

http://www.naturemagics.com/kerala-seneries-photos/kalariyattu-martialarts-kerala.jpg

http://nomadicyogasoul.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/kalari_indian_martial_arts.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4-J72Y4LjAU/SYCUC2HUEcI/AAAAAAAAAK0/QVTYEvYsfLM/s400/ABCD0001.JPG

now, look at these:

http://fightmash.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/bokator.jpg

http://www.corepoweryoga.com/sites/default/files/IMCE/CPYBlog/figure%20four%20WIDE.jpg

http://0.static.wix.com/media/9d4cd3_fb0f64d766406c867d43b309c48dedf5.jpg_512

http://yoga.prevention.com/iyogalife/cms/uploads/1/Mainforrunners0182_knee-down_lunge_at_wall_1.jpg

[SevenStar]

EDIT: re: forms in Muay Boran. There are many that wonder if this was a creation for the Ong Bak movie, because many traditional forms of Thai boxing do not in fact have forms. More common, instead, were "master techniques" (Mae Mai) - usually done with a partner. The "form" in the Ong Bak movie was really a collection of single techniques that may or may not have traditionally been done with a partner.

I never learned forms in the old Thai that I was exposed to, but we did have flowery, happy yoga names, like cracking the coconut, which was an elbow to the head. the use of the 9 striking surfaces were the 9 flowers. most of my training was modern Muay Thai pre western boxing integration, but we were shown some older stuff as well

[David Jamieson]

Oldest evidence of civilization:
What is now modern day Turkey:
Gobekli Tepe

Would you settle for oldest civilization that has writing available?

Gobekli Tepe is interesting and there may well have been antediluvian civilizations, there is certainly a growing body of evidence to support that.

But, the records shows the Harrapan Empire (Sumerians) still have it when it comes to writing, organizing, creating a political structure etc etc etc. That starts there so far as we are aware to this day.

[Kellen Bassette]

You've got that backwards, the Tai people migrated from Taiwan, through south China, south through Vietnam, through Cambodia, and then west.
Military arts were picked up in Khmer, as was initial exposure to Indian culture..
When they hit the west, they picked up more Indian culture imported via Burma

I wasn't referring to the migration of the Tai people, I was talking about the speculated migration of Indian Martial Arts.

[Kellen Bassette]

http://www.corepoweryoga.com/sites/default/files/IMCE/CPYBlog/figure%20four%20WIDE.jpg


Sure they look similar...that one pose is also used in Kung Fu, the "Priest" stance.

First of all, any nation that has engaged in war has engaged in martial arts. Almost every ancient culture will have some sort of martial tradition. That being said, some are famous for it, some are not. The Greeks had martial arts, but they're not really known for widely practiced, complex, systematic martial arts.

Most of the East Asian countries are. India supposedly is.

My problem. India is the second most populous country in the world. It is an ancient culture with enormous history. Indian nationals are EVERYWHERE in the West. Australia, USA, U.K. ect...Now, we don't have nearly as many Filipino or Indonesian immigrants, in the States, as we do Indian, yet there's no shortage of their martial arts. There's plenty of interest in obscure martial arts. Why aren't IMA being taught?

India has Bollywood and is in the know on the web. Where are the videos, the web pitches, the schools? Where are the empty hand Indian martial arts? Why are they so rare and obscure? When you do see one, why does it seem suspicious and made up? There's a billion Indians...seems like some of them would be interested in learning or at least profiting off these arts.

On the other hand, Yoga is EVERYWHERE. There's no shortage of Indian culture out there in the rest of the world, but where are the martial arts? We're told the Malay, Burmese, Thai, Indonesian, Lao and Cambodian, heck even the Chinese arts came from India. We have thousands of their arts, but we don't have much to show for IMA. It just don't add up to me.

It's true most people don't know anything about Cambodian, Lao, and Burmese arts.....but there's a ton more info about them than there is IMA and you can easily find clips, fights, histories, ect.

It's just an opinion and I could be completely wrong; and am certainly open to any theories or facts; but when you really look at it...why did all these arts survive in other countries but not their parent country? Why do all these other countries have a far richer martial landscape than India? Why is so much of Indian culture preserved, but so little of their martial tradition?

Sure there were/are IMA, but the more I think about it, the more I think the depth, influence and existence of IMA were WAYYYYY overstated.

But I could be wrong. :D

[SevenStar]

I'm rushed, can't reply in full, however, here are other Indian arts, since you mentioned you only know of one:

kalariprayattu
punjabi
vajramushti
mukki boxing
gatka

those are off memory, I'm sure there are more.

[Kellen Bassette]

I'm rushed, can't reply in full, however, here are other Indian arts, since you mentioned you only know of one:

kalariprayattu
punjabi
vajramushti
mukki boxing
gatka

those are off memory, I'm sure there are more.

This is exactly what I mean. Most the stuff I find is theatrical weapon performance. I will say some of the kalariprayattu empty hand did resemble a performance version of Muay Boran, that's the only thing I've seen yet that has any resemblance. The vajramushti empty hand forms, look an awful lot like some southern kung fu forms...have to look at the age of that art...

As far as I can tell from some quick searches, punjabi and gatka seem to be the same thing. Mukki Boxing has yet to yield me anything but some generic factoid paragraphs...still nothing to show me it's alive and well...

It seems like the empty hand IMA are few and far between but all the East Asian countries have multitudes of TMA that are alive and well.

Why do you think this is? Or do you think they are more common and intact; and for some odd reason not exposed to the West like so many other obscure arts have been?

kalariprayattu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLLpjViFhlc
punjabi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG8G7e5Hq6c
vajramushti http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VpmuS3MXTg
mukki boxing
gatka http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Cqrhlce3I

[mawali]

people say Thai was influenced by immigrants from southern China. I doubt it tho. localized arts have a similar flavor. northern kung Fu looks similar. southern kung Fu has a similar look and characteristics. southern kung fu however looks nothing like Muay Thai. Thai looks like bando, golden boxing, bokator, pradal serey, etc. Muay Thai likely came from cambodia.

You make a good point! Thailand was more accessible so it appeared that they were the inheritor of many 'village' arts when in fact it was Cambodia that provided the origin. With unsecured borders, many tribal people preferred the 'freedom' of Thailand so by default, Thailand came onto the scene.
To my recollection, Bando has a Burmese background since that was the first time I was aware of its background!

[SevenStar]

here:

http://www.ksatriya-dharma.com/en/larte-marziale.html

http://www.damartialartspage.com/Files/Indian/Terms.html

this chick is supposedly trained in Indian martial arts and dance:
http://www.jasminesimhalan.plus.com/html/martial.html

[SevenStar]

This is exactly what I mean. Most the stuff I find is theatrical weapon performance. I will say some of the kalariprayattu empty hand did resemble a performance version of Muay Boran, that's the only thing I've seen yet that has any resemblance. The vajramushti empty hand forms, look an awful lot like some southern kung fu forms...have to look at the age of that art...

As far as I can tell from some quick searches, punjabi and gatka seem to be the same thing. Mukki Boxing has yet to yield me anything but some generic factoid paragraphs...still nothing to show me it's alive and well...

It seems like the empty hand IMA are few and far between but all the East Asian countries have multitudes of TMA that are alive and well.

Why do you think this is? Or do you think they are more common and intact; and for some odd reason not exposed to the West like so many other obscure arts have been?

kalariprayattu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLLpjViFhlc
punjabi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG8G7e5Hq6c
vajramushti http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VpmuS3MXTg
mukki boxing
gatka http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Cqrhlce3I

one of the pics I posted earlier was a teep kick. regardless, what's left is what's least. like I stated, the various Muay are dead as well, and the other Khmer arts I named are virtually unknown. the only traffic we know of what we call Muay boran is because someone is trying to preserve the old styles; Muay lon lon, mai mae, Muay lopburi, Muay chaya, etc are all extinct. perhaps what is left of the Indian arts is only dance and yoga. that wouldn't downplay the influence it had elsewhere before it died. there were hundreds of Japanese jujutsu styles. they died during the peace times as there was no longer a need for samurai. a few styles survived, but most did not.

[Vajramusti]

There is no question that the Indian sub continent has had rich traditions in the martial arts
for thousands of years. And, Indian martial arts have very much influenced SE Asian martial arts.
Indian metallurgy was far more advanced than that of Europe and provided the basis of steel weaponry used by the Saracens in the crusades and later influenced the development of Damascus steel and then
Toledo and Sheffield steel and the Russian saber.. Even now many steel weapons and even the Marine sabers for some time were made in Indian foundries.The history of Indian martial weaponry is extensive.
The crisis in Indian martial arts took place when the British Crown after the Indian Mutiny of 1857
directly took over governance from the East India company. The Brits absorbed Indian martial groups-the Sikhs, the Raj puts, the Maharattas, the Gurkhas, the Baluchs, the Pathans into segregated regiments using one ethnic group against another. They outlawed most kinds of martial training and went after many
anti English groups like the so called thugees. Then you have the decline of princely support for martial sports including India kusthi.
China faced more economic imperialism than direct Euoropean rule so family pais flourished.
Nevertheless there is still a lot of martial arts in India in the kalaris, akharas, some clubs, and groups.
Kalari payattu, kusthi, Sikh gatkha, archery in Ladakh and Manipur, lathi, silamban stick fighting
are still around-you just have to look for it.
But martial arts has declined in China as well.More westerners than Chinese are interested in
TCMA theses days.

[Kellen Bassette]

Thanks for the info you guys are putting up here Seven Star and Varjamusti...as I said, my suspicions aren't based on any fact or research...just what I've been exposed to so far in the martial arts world...it would be very intresting to see if any of these arts have maintained a fighting tradition, (like many of the Indo-China arts have.)

[Kellen Bassette]

most of my training was modern Muay Thai pre western boxing integration, but we were shown some older stuff as well

In your experience with "old" MT, did you find that there was an aversion to using the hook and uppercut?

My apologies to all the old guys reminiscing about the good old days. It just occurred to me, that I have yet again played a major part in derailing another thread. :(

[MasterKiller]

You know what else was different in the 70s?

http://www.sethoscope.net/photos/2000-Scotland/hair/pile.jpg

[GeneChing]

We're running an article on Indian Martial Arts in our next issue (MAY+JUNE 2013) which is just about to go to press. Check back with us in a month. Until then, we do have a discussion thread on it here: Indian martial arts (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=514).

Back OT, I'd venture to say every decade could be categorized as a different MA era. We've seen rapid change across the board with each decade over the last century+.

[SevenStar]

In your experience with "old" MT, did you find that there was an aversion to using the hook and uppercut?

My apologies to all the old guys reminiscing about the good old days. It just occurred to me, that I have yet again played a major part in derailing another thread. :(

yeah, it was mainly straight punches. in mt you want to do as much damage as possible. why hook and uppercut when I can knee and elbow since they are the same fighting range? there are elbows and knees for every occasion - upward, downward, diagonal, hook, stabbing, jumping, spinning...

[SevenStar]

You know what else was different in the 70s?

http://www.sethoscope.net/photos/2000-Scotland/hair/pile.jpg

we don't wanna see the pube hair you shaved, bro.

[YouKnowWho]

You don't see hair style like this any more (the 2nd guy on the 1st row).

http://imageshack.us/a/img861/5153/breaky.jpg

[SPJ]

maxi medi mini styles come and go or move in a circle.

Mini or short skirts were in in 1960s

maxi: thick hairs; moustache; wide collar; wide throuser were in in 1970s

---

Japanese MA movies started a man against many

Chinese MA movies followed suit with never ending fights or took forever to die

Bruce Lee said that is not real.

In actual fight one strike you are out

Maxi MA fights movies turned into mini fights

--

Just like many things in life.

MMA was in in 1990s

Kung fu was in in 1970s

What would be in in 2010s

--

Comes and goes.

Everything moves in a circle.

:)

[Pork Chop]

Muay lon lon, mai mae, Muay lopburi, Muay chaya, etc are all extinct. perhaps what is left of the Indian arts is only dance and yoga.

I don't think Muay Chaiya is extinct.
Is that Mae Mai or Mai Mae? Coz Mae Mai's not extinct either.
In fact, my coach calls our traditional techniques "Mae Mai Muay Thai Chaiya" (Master tricks of Muay Chaiya).
Sityodtong was teaching Mae Mai as well (RIP).
Kru Lek's doing a lot of big things with Muay Chaiya.
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2009/08/28/muay-thai-chaiya-it%E2%80%99s-nothing-like-muay-thai/
Not sure what General Amnat Pooksrisuk trains, but it's ancient and bareknuckle.
Khun Kao trained with him and said he's a beast.

Here's one of the styles I was looking for (the Mukki Boxing someone referred to earlier):
http://www.indianetzone.com/57/musti_yuddha.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushti_yuddha
I've seen videos but I can't find them.

Kellen:
What part are you having a hard time understanding?
Indian martial arts went northwest to the silk road, then east to China.
Indian martial arts also went east through Burma and Southeast asia, all the way to Khmer (and beyond).
Tai people emigrated from the far east, westward through many territories that had been influenced by Indian culture, some even ending up in northwest India.

[Kellen Bassette]

Kellen:
What part are you having a hard time understanding?
Indian martial arts went northwest to the silk road, then east to China.
Indian martial arts also went east through Burma and Southeast asia, all the way to Khmer (and beyond).
Tai people emigrated from the far east, westward through many territories that had been influenced by Indian culture, some even ending up in northwest India.

The part that really didn't make sense to me was the IMA traveled east to Cambodia, then the Cambodian arts presumably gave birth to the Thai and Burmese arts. If it was India, Burma, Thailand then Cambodia it would make more sense to me then India, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma, as was suggested.

[Pork Chop]

The part that really didn't make sense to me was the IMA traveled east to Cambodia, then the Cambodian arts presumably gave birth to the Thai and Burmese arts. If it was India, Burma, Thailand then Cambodia it would make more sense to me then India, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma, as was suggested.

Ah, my bad for being confusing. Burma got their stuff from India, but may have also been influenced by later developments further eastward. I've seen it said that their stuff shows more Musti Yuddha influence than elsewhere in southeast Asia. Shame what happened to that country. It used to be a real trade & cultural center. Think they had the first airport in southeast Asia back in the 50s.

[Kellen Bassette]

Shame what happened to that country. It used to be a real trade & cultural center. Think they had the first airport in southeast Asia back in the 50s.

It was one of the wealthiest countries in the region under British rule. It's amazing how far back bad government can set you.