Buddha hand snake crane wing chun

[stonecrusher69]

another lineage of Wing Chun that is still closed door.

door..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm6WAImqlwQ

[Lee Chiang Po]

If by westerners you mean non Chinese, then my own lineage is still closed door. Anyone that was ever taught had to make an oath never to teach it outside their own race.

[stonecrusher69]

Um.... how can the door still be closed if a Westerner is showing a form set on YouTube? :):confused::)


Up until NOW!!

[stonecrusher69]

The form looks like a linking form that combines all the sets into one.. I noticed some of the circular footwork is similiar to my lineage.

[LaRoux]

Closed door = not sharing and testing with other styles = not evolving = not functional

[PalmStriker]

The form looks like a linking form that combines all the sets into one.. I noticed some of the circular footwork is similiar to my lineage. Quite possible, interesting variation for sure, thanks StoneCrusher. :)

[Robinhood]

Looks like he just copied it out of some books.

Who cares what the form looks like, it is what you can't see that is important.

This guy shows it all, there is nothing else going on.

[Phil Redmond]

If by westerners you mean non Chinese, then my own lineage is still closed door. Anyone that was ever taught had to make an oath never to teach it outside their own race.
That reeks of racism. :(

[Phil Redmond]

Closed door = not sharing and testing with other styles = not evolving = not functional
Agreed, who do they know their style works against other styles ?

[Lee Chiang Po]

I agree that it is racist. But none the less, I took an oath. I did once exchange with a Japanese man who taught me Jiujitsu. My dad would have likely beaten me to death if he had known what I was up to. He hated Japs. But he was Asian of sorts, right?
As for not progressing, I don't think that even enters into it at all. I have said this before, I have not ever come up on a person trained in my own or any other lineage of Wing Chun. Ever. I have fought with people that had some karate training, some fairly good boxers, some that I have no idea what style or system they were using. I even fought a fellow that was considered to be the best Mantis fighter in New Orleans and beat him so badly I was shunned for my brutality. But then I was afraid of him. I was told he would likely kill me and I almost ran away rather than fight him. But when I did decide to do it, I was committed to destroying him instead. And I did.
I have known a number of people over the years that were just plain natural fighters and even without any formal martial training they were dangerous men in a fight and would be very difficult to fight even for a well trained fighter of any system.

[LFJ]

That reeks of racism. :(

Welcome to China. ;)

[anerlich]

Agreed, who do they know their style works against other styles ?

Nail on the head.

[wingchunIan]

another lineage of Wing Chun that is still closed door.

door..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm6WAImqlwQ

Pity they couldn't have kept it closed a bit tighter.

[stonecrusher69]

Pity they couldn't have kept it closed a bit tighter.


Why is that?

[Pakua4581]

There is nothing 'closed door' about this,its a standard interpretation of Wing Chun principles put together in one place. The name Fut Sao may have to do with buddhist connotations associated with Wing Chun (maybe taken from the Sam Pai Fut section?).As for the Snake and Crane aspect,it is said that Wing Chun may be a marriage of Emei Snake with Fukchien Crane.

Isnt there a Jong Kuen Form still taught somewhere in Hong Kong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHCqmp7oQhU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8ZVvu6wlrk

Perhaps this is an interpretation of one of the ancestors of this line who may have learnt different expressions of Wing Chun from different sources,amalgamated the understanding and then passed it on.

As for "Closed door" systems being untested,are not most of what is available for study in this day and age once considered as 'closed door' and initially were in the hands of a few?

Those who know how to apply what they know will apply what they know,plain and simple!

[wingchunIan]

This whole thread has now descended into nonesense.
1) Closed door system traditionally meant that it wasn't taught openly, not that it wasn't used. All arts once considered closed door were regularly tested by use in real fighting
2) Closed door systems do not put videos on you tube nor do they routinely teach overweight foreigners.
3) Wing Chun has now gone full circle from the days of believing all Wing Chun stemmed from Ip Man to today where alledgedly a new branch of previously unheard of Wing Chun is discovered every day. People are so eager to believe in long lost lineages that might yeild hidden secrets or so desperate for anything that supports the claims of their own newly discovered, until recently closed door ancient version of Wing Chun that they are more than happy to take any clip of anyone waving their arms about in shapes that vaguely (and I do mean vague) resemble Wing Chun and accept it as evidence of a previoulsy hidden lineage.

[Pakua4581]

I agree with your first point,that is exactly what I have said differently.
I beg to differ on your second point because in this day and age of the internet and with China opening its doors there are many so called 'closed door' systems that are now open to the public and yes they have used Youtube as a showcase,

example: Xin Yi Liu He Quan was a closed style as far back as 2002,when its contents were speculated upon in the internet forums,now you have a whole plethora of videos on Youtube.
If you go through Youtube,you will see MANY lineages of Wing Chun that were hitherto 'unknown',even one that was taught in the U.K (Red Boat Opera Wing Chun)!

As for your comment on routinely teaching overweight foreigners,that is being very presumptious.I have learnt from Chinese masters who would be considered overweight but their skill level was another story.Look up Sam F S Chin,or even Bruce Frantzis an 'over weight' foreigner who was given complete Hsing yi/Bagua and Taiji lineages (I hold the 6th generation lineage of a Southern Mantis system and I may be considered as overweight!).

Your third point does not make sense either,it was but natural for Wing Chun to have come so called 'full circle' as the system had many disseminators and lines apart from Yip Man's,and thanks to modern technological innovations many things that were previously unknown have come to light (in all aspects of life).

I do agree on your part about people seeking long lost secrets,all what you need in Wing Chun is 'there' provided all the underlying principles and concepts are there in whatever form you learn it. Also one should not become insecure when one see's different interpretations!



waving their arms about in shapes that vaguely (and I do mean vague) resemble Wing Chun Does this mean that your line of Wing Chun highly qualifies you to assess what another line is doing?

[stonecrusher69]

There is nothing 'closed door' about this,its a standard interpretation of Wing Chun principles put together in one place. The name Fut Sao may have to do with buddhist connotations associated with Wing Chun (maybe taken from the Sam Pai Fut section?).As for the Snake and Crane aspect,it is said that Wing Chun may be a marriage of Emei Snake with Fukchien Crane.

Isnt there a Jong Kuen Form still taught somewhere in Hong Kong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHCqmp7oQhU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8ZVvu6wlrk

Perhaps this is an interpretation of one of the ancestors of this line who may have learnt different expressions of Wing Chun from different sources,amalgamated the understanding and then passed it on.

As for "Closed door" systems being untested,are not most of what is available for study in this day and age once considered as 'closed door' and initially were in the hands of a few?

Those who know how to apply what they know will apply what they know,plain and simple!


The sifu in the clip do you know his lineage?

[Hendrik]

IMHO, by evidence we do have a clear view on the outline of wing Chun since 1850.

There are six area which the outline cover, and the six areas are, physical and mind handling, breathing and qi handling, change of force and momentum handling.

Via the signatures of these area, we can learn about different aspect of the particular lineage compare with the common denominator of the wing Chun 1850 reference.

So, there is. No secret, no mystery, and it is actually pretty straightforward lay out. The issue is there are areas which the western world are not exposed to yet , thus, it has to take sometimes to get expose to.

We know today, what is very likely, by evidence wing Chun kuen is a semiprivate art passed to the red boat within close family, then spread into the red boat opera uprising member who also the triad member since early 1800, then after 1855 the burning of the red boat opera fine Jade association, the single long set system was reorganized into the three sets system. Where the internal art was defocus but the combat applications are put on sport light. That is to use the art to vengeance the killed red boat opera members by the betrayers who sold them off to Qing gorvenment, who practice the long bridge southern art, which is very likely the Choy lee fut. this is not against CLF but due to the long term exposure of Choy lee fut to the public since 1840 to 1855, some insider betrayer were train in Choy lee fut. So, WCK capture center momentum is used as a bunker missile to penetrate right into them.

By evidence, Wingchunkuen is not from shaolin temple, and the story of the burning of shaolin temple and how the elderly create the sets are actually telling the story of the burning of the fine jade red boat opera association in 1855, and the re organization of the single set system into the three sets system for the purpose of counter the betrayers , who is using the long bridge southern art which today we know it is extremely likely CLF. That is also the reason of wing Chun ner and CLF ner doesn't get along well after the 1855 incident. However, wing Chun and CLF are Allie at the begining of the uprising and still Allie at the end of the uprising.

Also, in history of china in this era, we do know and have identify certain Qing commander who is in fact betrayer, who was first a hung mun member then switch side.

Thus, via the signature of the six areas, history evidence....etc. we do know WCK , we can verify the likely of the lineage claims.

We today know of wing Chun kuen by evidence and signatutes of these six areas, and also we do know the lack or further evolution of these six areas. With these the future evolution of WCK can be study.


So, the value of new lineages found, if they are real red boat 1850 lineages, they will provide more signatures to complete or confirm the six areas. If they are not older lineages but modern evolution, their signatures in the six areas will indicate that. We do have this type of ability today.

[Pakua4581]

here is a more clearer version of the form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQyVn_BhSwk

A brief explanation:

The form is just meant as an example of one of the 'ways' that the concepts from Sil Lien Tao and Chum Kil can be interpreted and combined in a flow.The main emphasis of this version of Wing Chun is to teach the practitioner to adapt and flow with the Wing Chun principles in a free and random manner,without any thought of pre-meditation (the Snake aspect).
The Wooden Dummy carries on from this concept,as only the first two sections are presented in a formal manner in order to give the practitioner an idea on 'how' to use the dummy.The rest of the 'sections' have to be created randomly at the spur of the moment.

This is from the teachings of the (late) Sifu Kiam (19?? to 2004) of Guangzhou.The system comes down from his father who learnt from 2 different Sifu's.

Leung Jan or Chan Wah Sun do not figure as sources.

I learnt this in 2000,prior to that I was training in the Leung Ting WT system.

I do not train Wing Chun anymore nor do I wish to propagate it,the video was as a favor to an old friend who started learning the Yip Man lineage.I made it public for his sake.

From my research,there is a lot of the Yuen Kay San methodology in the other three empty hand forms.

If any one thinks that im just waving my hands around randomly or that ive learnt from a book....well,thats just their opinion,will not change any facts!

I have kung fu brothers training and teaching around the world,so this really is not such a closed door system,more like a private backyard class of an intensely private man.

I will respond fully to polite and genuine enquiries.

[Hendrik]

IMHO, in my understanding, the snake aspect of the snake crane wing Chun is not the pre meditation but hand technics such as tan sau is a snake aspect.




here is a more clearer version of the form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQyVn_BhSwk

A brief explanation:

The form is just meant as an example of one of the 'ways' that the concepts from Sil Lien Tao and Chum Kil can be interpreted and combined in a flow.The main emphasis of this version of Wing Chun is to teach the practitioner to adapt and flow with the Wing Chun principles in a free and random manner,without any thought of pre-meditation (the Snake aspect).
The Wooden Dummy carries on from this concept,as only the first two sections are presented in a formal manner in order to give the practitioner an idea on 'how' to use the dummy.The rest of the 'sections' have to be created randomly at the spur of the moment.

This is from the teachings of the (late) Sifu Kiam (19?? to 2004) of Guangzhou.The system comes down from his father who learnt from 2 different Sifu's.

Leung Jan or Chan Wah Sun do not figure as sources.

I learnt this in 2000,prior to that I was training in the Leung Ting WT system.

I do not train Wing Chun anymore nor do I wish to propagate it,the video was as a favor to an old friend who started learning the Yip Man lineage.I made it public for his sake.

From my research,there is a lot of the Yuen Kay San methodology in the other three empty hand forms.

If any one thinks that im just waving my hands around randomly or that ive learnt from a book....well,thats just their opinion,will not change any facts!

I have kung fu brothers training and teaching around the world,so this really is not such a closed door system,more like a private backyard class of an intensely private man.

I will respond fully to polite and genuine enquiries.

[Robinhood]

I agree with your first point,that is exactly what I have said differently.
I beg to differ on your second point because in this day and age of the internet and with China opening its doors there are many so called 'closed door' systems that are now open to the public and yes they have used Youtube as a showcase,

example: Xin Yi Liu He Quan was a closed style as far back as 2002,when its contents were speculated upon in the internet forums,now you have a whole plethora of videos on Youtube.
If you go through Youtube,you will see MANY lineages of Wing Chun that were hitherto 'unknown',even one that was taught in the U.K (Red Boat Opera Wing Chun)!

As for your comment on routinely teaching overweight foreigners,that is being very presumptious.I have learnt from Chinese masters who would be considered overweight but their skill level was another story.Look up Sam F S Chin,or even Bruce Frantzis an 'over weight' foreigner who was given complete Hsing yi/Bagua and Taiji lineages (I hold the 6th generation lineage of a Southern Mantis system and I may be considered as overweight!).

Your third point does not make sense either,it was but natural for Wing Chun to havek come so called 'full circle' as the system had many disseminators and lines apart from Yip Man's,and thanks to modern technological innovations many things that were previously unknown have come to light (in all aspects of life).

I do agree on your part about people seeking long lost secrets,all what you need in Wing Chun is 'there' provided all the underlying principles and concepts are there in whatever form you learn it. Also one should not become insecure when one see's different interpretations!


Does this mean that your line of Wing Chun highly qualifies you to assess what another line is doing?

I would not put to much trust in these over weight outsiders who claim lineage.
They are usually just trying to talk themselves up, instead of actually teaching something.
If you ever listened to Kumar you will know what I am talking about, lots of I and me and not much else. Don't pay attention to self promoting blow hogs, it is usually lots of BS.

[Hendrik]

IMHO, in my understanding, the snake aspect of the snake crane wing Chun is not the pre meditation but hand technics such as tan sau is a snake aspect.




here is a more clearer version of the form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQyVn_BhSwk

A brief explanation:

The form is just meant as an example of one of the 'ways' that the concepts from Sil Lien Tao and Chum Kil can be interpreted and combined in a flow.The main emphasis of this version of Wing Chun is to teach the practitioner to adapt and flow with the Wing Chun principles in a free and random manner,without any thought of pre-meditation (the Snake aspect).
The Wooden Dummy carries on from this concept,as only the first two sections are presented in a formal manner in order to give the practitioner an idea on 'how' to use the dummy.The rest of the 'sections' have to be created randomly at the spur of the moment.

This is from the teachings of the (late) Sifu Kiam (19?? to 2004) of Guangzhou.The system comes down from his father who learnt from 2 different Sifu's.

Leung Jan or Chan Wah Sun do not figure as sources.

I learnt this in 2000,prior to that I was training in the Leung Ting WT system.

I do not train Wing Chun anymore nor do I wish to propagate it,the video was as a favor to an old friend who started learning the Yip Man lineage.I made it public for his sake.

From my research,there is a lot of the Yuen Kay San methodology in the other three empty hand forms.

If any one thinks that im just waving my hands around randomly or that ive learnt from a book....well,thats just their opinion,will not change any facts!

I have kung fu brothers training and teaching around the world,so this really is not such a closed door system,more like a private backyard class of an intensely private man.

I will respond fully to polite and genuine enquiries.

[Pakua4581]

Thank you for your input Hendrick,what you have said is also plays a part.
Robinhood,my response was just an example to Wingchunian.
I am not claiming any lineage as I have stated before Im not interested in Wing Chun.I stopped training this particular system in 2005.

[Hendrik]

Thank you for your input Hendrick,what you have said is also plays a part.
Robinhood,my response was just an example to Wingchunian.
I am not claiming any lineage as I have stated before Im not interested in Wing Chun.I stopped training this particular system in 2005.

There is a write up on snake crane wing Chun lineage basic technics by sifu Wayne Yung. If I found it I will post it for you who is interested.

[stonecrusher69]

here is a more clearer version of the form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQyVn_BhSwk

A brief explanation:

The form is just meant as an example of one of the 'ways' that the concepts from Sil Lien Tao and Chum Kil can be interpreted and combined in a flow.The main emphasis of this version of Wing Chun is to teach the practitioner to adapt and flow with the Wing Chun principles in a free and random manner,without any thought of pre-meditation (the Snake aspect).
The Wooden Dummy carries on from this concept,as only the first two sections are presented in a formal manner in order to give the practitioner an idea on 'how' to use the dummy.The rest of the 'sections' have to be created randomly at the spur of the moment.

This is from the teachings of the (late) Sifu Kiam (19?? to 2004) of Guangzhou.The system comes down from his father who learnt from 2 different Sifu's.

Leung Jan or Chan Wah Sun do not figure as sources.

I learnt this in 2000,prior to that I was training in the Leung Ting WT system.

I do not train Wing Chun anymore nor do I wish to propagate it,the video was as a favor to an old friend who started learning the Yip Man lineage.I made it public for his sake.

From my research,there is a lot of the Yuen Kay San methodology in the other three empty hand forms.

If any one thinks that im just waving my hands around randomly or that ive learnt from a book....well,thats just their opinion,will not change any facts!

I have kung fu brothers training and teaching around the world,so this really is not such a closed door system,more like a private backyard class of an intensely private man.

I will respond fully to polite and genuine enquiries.


thank you for your information

[Hendrik]

here are Sifu Wayne Yung article on Snake Crane Wing Chun lineage cut to fit the down load size

[Hendrik]

As we can see above, in the Red boat era or atleast with 1890 Snake Crane Wing Chun documentary, Tan Sau is a snake technic. Tong Kiu is a Crane technic. These are different technics with different applications. instead of many today called them Tan or High Tan. or simply get rid of the Tan but leave only High Tan.

This also brought up the legend of Tan Sau Ng which is rised by Pan Nam and then endose by Ip Chun decade ago. So, which is the Tan Sau of Tan Sau Ng who claim to be the master of Tan Sau?


if it is Tan sau as the snake hand above, that is the technology of Emei snake. if it is the Tong Kiu, it is actually the Zhao Yang of Fujian White Crane. Both Tan Sau existed in the pre 1900 Siu lin/Nim tau set from different red boat era WCK lineages.

the Tan Sau above is located in the one tan three fook section. while the Tong Kiu or Zhao Yang is in the end of the Siu Lin/nim Tau set.


Thus, technologically, based on the Red Boat era WCK technics and the content of Siu lin/nim tau set. the legend of Tan Sau Ng, doesnt hold. the above two technics, the Tong Kiu and the Tan Sau could be trace to both Fujian white Crane and Emei snake. but not Shao lin. none of the Shao Lin has this type of technology for the past 1000 years in the TCMA history.

I would love to see any one could pin point which Shao Lin has this type of technology, if one know where. and open to accept it. however, in the mean time, we can trace these to emei and fujian. and via these, the legend of Tan Sau Ng doesnt hold. Tan Sau Ng is a Red boat opera member however the rest of the claim address by Pan Nam has no evidence to support.

not to mention we now know, the split of single set system of WCK to the three set system happen in the 1855 era. and thus in 1850, WCK in the red boat is a single set system, as we could heard the story from different older lineages such as Leong Jan's and other lineages.

[k gledhill]

I see very confused students :o

[Pakua4581]

This is not the system that ive learnt Hendrick,nor is the system related to Henry Leung.

You can classify the moves as snake or crane origin,but that is true of all Wing Chun.
You align yourself with what your opponent is doing and nullify an attack accordingly.

[Hendrik]

This is not the system that ive learnt Hendrick,nor is the system related to Henry Leung.

You can classify the moves as snake or crane origin,but that is true of all Wing Chun.
You align yourself with what your opponent is doing and nullify an attack accordingly.

The snake crane wing Chun of sifu Wayne Yung and YKS lineage are sister linege from red boat pre 1900.

Yes, snake crane are applied to all red boat lineage WCK.



Henry Leung Lineage is a different evolution.

From your description , the lineage you learn, seem to be an evolution instead of the direct red boat opera actor related lineage or post 1900 WCK.

[stonecrusher69]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1214404]As we can see above, in the Red boat era or atleast with 1890 Snake Crane Wing Chun documentary, Tan Sau is a snake technic. Tong Kiu is a Crane technic. These are different technics with different applications. instead of many today called them Tan or High Tan. or simply get rid of the Tan but leave only High Tan.

This also brought up the legend of Tan Sau Ng which is rised by Pan Nam and then endose by Ip Chun decade ago. So, which is the Tan Sau of Tan Sau Ng who claim to be the master of Tan Sau?


if it is Tan sau as the snake hand above, that is the technology of Emei snake. if it is the Tong Kiu, it is actually the Zhao Yang of Fujian White Crane. Both Tan Sau existed in the pre 1900 Siu lin/Nim tau set from different red boat era WCK lineages.

the Tan Sau above is located in the one tan three fook section. while the Tong Kiu or Zhao Yang is in the end of the Siu Lin/nim Tau set.


Thus, technologically, based on the Red Boat era WCK technics and the content of Siu lin/nim tau set. the legend of Tan Sau Ng, doesnt hold. the above two technics, the Tong Kiu and the Tan Sau could be trace to both Fujian white Crane and Emei snake. but not Shao lin. none of the Shao Lin has this type of technology for the past 1000 years in the TCMA history.

I would love to see any one could pin point which Shao Lin has this type of technology, if one know where. and open to accept it. however, in the mean time, we can trace these to emei and fujian. and via these, the legend of Tan Sau Ng doesnt hold. Tan Sau Ng is a Red boat opera member however the rest of the claim address by Pan Nam has no evidence to support.

not to mention we now know, the split of single set system of WCK to the three set system happen in the 1855 era. and thus in 1850, WCK in the red boat is a single set system, as we could heard the story from different older lineages such as Leong Jan's and other lineages.[/QUOTE

In my SLT i do what you call the snake hand tan sao,and when i do chun Kiu I do what you call Crane hand or Tong Kiu pattern. but to me i just look at it as the same eventhough they have a different action. The Chinese characters for both tans should be different if your correct.

[Hendrik]

Pre 1900 slt both these technics exist in it. They are very different basic core WCK technics. Mess up these two technics means mess up the WCK momentum handling.
These are also a signature of knowing the identity of the version of evolution.



In my SLT i do what you call the snake hand tan sao,and when i do chun Kiu I do what you call Crane hand or Tong Kiu pattern. but to me i just look at it as the same eventhough they have a different action. The Chinese characters for both tans should be different if your correct.

[Vajramusti]

Pre 1900 slt both these technics exist in it. They are very different basic core WCK technics. Mess up these two technics means mess up the WCK momentum handling.
These are also a signature of knowing the identity of the version of evolution.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those photos did not do a thing for me-anyway.
Sorry,but honest.

[Pakua4581]

What do you think of the Form,Mr Choudry?
Here is the link again,I am the one in the video.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQyVn_BhSwk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Regards,
Yasser

[Hendrik]

Some says
Jong Kuen

This form is an ancestral Wing Chun form that has been lost in the modernizations that ocured in Hong Kong. According to modern research Wing Chun was original 1 form, 4 sections. Wong Wah Bo and Leung Jan broke the single form down into the standard 3 form. The 4th section/form was typicaly integrated into the Jong form and weapon forms. The set teachs all the core footwork, as well as contains the core cycles of the Wing Chun System. Ng Chun So passed his version down to Several students. Chan family preserves the 4th form as well,as well as Lo Kwai the pork sellers decendents, suggesting that Yip Man either didnt learn it or didnt pass it down, possibly integrating it into his Weapon sets.

IMHO.

However, your set with its signature of "nine turn flying snake spine indicates mastering of the arm" seems to be from the yks or snake crane wing Chun lineage side.

We know today, it is very likely that after leung LAN Kwai, WCK passed down by three lines, Wong wah Bo, lo man Kung, and yik kam. The set in the video seem to be the lo man Kung line of set. And lo man Kung line is the yks source.




What do you think of the Form,Mr Choudry?
Here is the link again,I am the one in the video.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQyVn_BhSwk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Regards,
Yasser

[Hendrik]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those photos did not do a thing for me-anyway.
Sorry,but honest.


If you are from the yks or snake crane wing Chun lineage you can identify the technics of these photos and its applcation within the Jong kuen set Paul is practice.

Since your are from Ipman lineage, to not see them is usual.

[Vajramusti]

What do you think of the Form,Mr Choudry?
Here is the link again,I am the one in the video.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQyVn_BhSwk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Regards,
Yasser
--------------------------------------------------------
Hi Yasser-I try not to commnet on what I dont know. I paid attention to what you were doing
and got a some sense for what you were doing.I don't know yet how you get power and acceleration in the motions.

I am fairly deeply immersed in perspectives from a particular Ip Man lineage so my comments
may not be useful tp practitioners of your version.

You do Yang taichi and southern mantis.? What kind pf mantis. A now deceased friend was in tong long among other things (Sifu Gin Foon MarK)a nd I had a little sense of that version.

Good wishes

[desertwingchun2]

Some says
Jong Kuen

This form is an ancestral Wing Chun form that has been lost in the modernizations that ocured in Hong Kong. According to modern research Wing Chun was original 1 form, 4 sections. Wong Wah Bo and Leung Jan broke the single form down.

This is your typical misinformation.
Snake Crane WC has three forms. Snake Crane has nothing to do with Wong Wah Bo or Leung Jan.

Their ancestor learned direct from Dai Fa Min Kam. They inherited three sets from Dai Fa Min Kam. This is fact.

Dai Fa Min Kam also passed down the Jong Kuen form. This form can be seen in the Chung Chu Man lineage of Shaolin Weng Chun.

Dai Fa Min Kam ---> Fung Sui Ching -----> Dong Jik -----> Chung Chu Man = modern day Shaolin Weng Chun
Dai Fa Min Kam ---> Law Tiu Wen ----> Law Ting Chau ---> Law Chiu Wing = modern day Snake Crane Wing Chun
Dai Fa Min Kam ---> Fung Siu Ching ---> Yui Kay San = modern day YKSWC

No mention of one long set in Wing Chun Kuen. Weng Chun Kuen has Jong Kuen. No SNT, CK, BJ

No one long set in Snake Crane WC. Only three sets SNT, CK, BJ

You may believe you have the "original" but no one else is buying it.

[Hendrik]

1. Learn how to read will be good for you.



2. Jong kuen, This form is an ancestral Wing Chun form that has been lost in the modernizations that ocured in Hong Kong.

According to modern research Wing Chun was original 1 form, 4 sections. Wong Wah Bo and Leung Jan broke the single form down into the standard 3 form.

The 4th section/form was typicaly integrated into the Jong form and weapon forms.

The set teachs all the core footwork, as well as contains the core cycles of the Wing Chun System. Ng Chun So passed his version down to Several students. Chan family preserves the 4th form as well,as well as Lo Kwai the pork sellers decendents, suggesting that Yip Man either didnt learn it or didnt pass it down, possibly integrating it into his Weapon sets.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.JongKuen



3. This is not wing Chun snake crane Jong kuen talking here. Not the Jong kuen as describe above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2dlETgMsGU






This is your typical misinformation.
Snake Crane WC has three forms. Snake Crane has nothing to do with Wong Wah Bo or Leung Jan.

Their ancestor learned direct from Dai Fa Min Kam. They inherited three sets from Dai Fa Min Kam. This is fact.

Dai Fa Min Kam also passed down the Jong Kuen form. This form can be seen in the Chung Chu Man lineage of Shaolin Weng Chun.

Dai Fa Min Kam ---> Fung Sui Ching -----> Dong Jik -----> Chung Chu Man = modern day Shaolin Weng Chun
Dai Fa Min Kam ---> Law Tiu Wen ----> Law Ting Chau ---> Law Chiu Wing = modern day Snake Crane Wing Chun
Dai Fa Min Kam ---> Fung Siu Ching ---> Yui Kay San = modern day YKSWC

No mention of one long set in Wing Chun Kuen. Weng Chun Kuen has Jong Kuen. No SNT, CK, BJ

No one long set in Snake Crane WC. Only three sets SNT, CK, BJ

You may believe you have the "original" but no one else is buying it.

[GlennR]

1. Learn how to read.

2. http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.JongKuen

1. Learn to stop writing about the same thing over and over again.

2. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/boring

[Hendrik]

1. Learn to stop writing about the same thing over and over again.

2. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/boring


We are discussing Jong kuen here. Can you read English?

[GlennR]

Can you read English?


A lot better than you can write it

[Eric_H]

here are Sifu Wayne Yung article on Snake Crane Wing Chun lineage cut to fit the down load size

That's possibly the worst expression of tan sao and tan kiu that I've ever seen.

[desertwingchun2]

1. Learn how to read will be good for you.



You learn to read and have a conversation. I was refering to your attempt to shove your same BS down our throat AGAIN!

There are no ancestors that passed only one long set except Yik Kam.

You try to align your own creation of YKTWC with SCWC but even they have three sets as passed down by Dai Fa Min Kam.

Stop your misinformation.

I knew you couldn't ignore me. Its only been a couple of days and you're back. Pitiful, your kung fu is weak sauce homeboy.

[desertwingchun2]

A lot better than you can write it

Where's the like button??

[PalmStriker]

It's the Buddha Palm incorporation in the style Yassar has shown that is of interest to me, where did this originate, lineage? Buddhist/Shaolin? :) Speculative rant not what I'm looking for. :)

[Pakua4581]

--------------------------------------------------------
Hi Yasser-I try not to commnet on what I dont know. I paid attention to what you were doing
and got a some sense for what you were doing.I don't know yet how you get power and acceleration in the motions.

I am fairly deeply immersed in perspectives from a particular Ip Man lineage so my comments
may not be useful tp practitioners of your version.

You do Yang taichi and southern mantis.? What kind pf mantis. A now deceased friend was in tong long among other things (Sifu Gin Foon MarK)a nd I had a little sense of that version.

Good wishes

Sir,

The power and acceleration comes from the structure. The body structure is very important and its done this way:

Hips tucked in as if you are about to sit,back straight but the upper back hunched which 'caves in ' the chest,shoulders open and relaxed and can be extended as long as they are within and along the central line.
The feet 'claw the ground and there is a fist distance between the knees (Kim Sut).

The Forms train the underlying principles but concentrate more on the structure .The whole point of Form training is to entrain the structure of the system within the practitioners body as seamlessly as possible.You will NOT use the goat clamping stance or the turning stance in actual combat as it is not possible,you will however try and replicate the body connections and the usage of ground energy that is learnt through Form practice as best as you can in an actual conflict,how well you use and apply is directly proportional to how well and how correctly you have trained.

There is a separate set devoted exclusively to combat footwork.

I see a lot of pointless argument about the form I have shown,it was never important to me while I was learning it if it was "original/lost/secret/origins etc etc.

Please view it as an expression and part of the vastness and richness of the Wing Chun art that you all so dearly practice.Its nothing more,nothing less.

The name also may be a tribute to the origins of my grand Sigungs learnings and could be his homage to his teachers as well as a way of identifying his unique signature of Wing Chun.That is my speculation.

Mr Chaudhry,

I train in the 'Old' Yang Style of Taiji as taught by the late Sifu Erle Montaigue,and hold the 6th Generation Lineage of a system of Southern Praying Mantis that was taught by Sifu K.S.Hsuing in Calcutta's Chinatown.My Pai predates the more known Jook Lum/Chu /Chow/Iron Ox schools.



Some Quotes from my Sifu (I find these applicable to most MA now):

'Wing Chun was not meant for the masses,now that the masses have gotten a hold of it,the style has become a fishmarket!'

'There are more Masters in Wing Chun now than there are practitioners!'

"As long as the underlying Principles are present,Wing Chun is 'there',it does not matter 'how' the choreography looks,or whether someone has learnt the system as separate San Sik/3 forms/10 forms/ 1 long form.As WC is a diverse set of principles its natural that each will apply and focus on principles that will suit them,thus the difference in choreography etc".

'Wing Chun Politicians will do very well in running a country!'

Ruminate on these words,there is wisdom behind the sarcasm.