Fighitng in the "old days"

[lkfmdc]

In October 1928 three Chinese generals, Zhang Zhi Jiang (张之江), Li Lie Jun (李烈鈞) and Li Jing Lin (李景林) organized the first public full contact competition in China. The purpose of the competition was to select qualified teachers for the newly founded Central Kuoshu Institute (中南國術館),

Of course, many traditional masters did not compete because they believed their skills could only be proven in serious duels and not “sporting” contests. However, the event attracted hundreds of the best Chinese martial artists who participated in three separate divisions; (1) “boxing”, (2) weapons sparring ad (3) wrestling (aka Shuai Jiao).

In the “boxing” division, competition was suspended after a few days due to the injuries. The event was held with very few rules, but more importantly without any gloves or protective gear. Like the early UFC’s many fighters injured their hands and legs, unaccustomed to actually striking the elbows and knees used to block. The last 12 contestants were not permitted to continue, the public excuse being the “fear of killing off some of the greatest masters of the time”. The overall winner was voted on by a jury of his peers!

The next year a similar event was held in Hangzhou, China. This event was also organized by Li Jinglin, then acting as vice-dean of the Central Martial Arts Academy. This time there were 125 entrants for the “boxing” or “free fighting” (San Shou) competition which was held November 21-27. The event was very popular, the audiences every day numbered in the tens of thousands.

The tournament had few rules, they were not allowed to attack the eyes, throat or groin – anyone breaching these rules was disqualified. However, the event also had a flaw in the rules, in the event of a draw BOTH contestants advanced to the next round. By the end of the first day, more than half the contests had ended in draws! The rules were quickly changed so that in the event of a draw both contestants were eliminated.

With this, the competitors didn’t hold back and many people were hurt, mostly with head injuries. The judges’ committee instituted a new rule in response, stating that contestants were not allowed to continually attack the head! The history of Chinese martial arts fighting competitions is full of instances of poor organization, irrational rules, random rule changes and rules which defy logic and reality of combat.

Zhao Daoxin was a disciple of Zhang Zhaodong and was famous in Tianjin’s martial arts community. Zhao was only 20 at the time and at the beginning of his martial arts career, yet managed to achieve 13th place. His notes on the competition included these observations;


“Those ‘orthodox inheritors’ of traditional martial arts, regardless of whether they were lofty monks or local grandmasters, were either knocked out or scared out of the competition”

Zhao also noted;


“Even though, at registration, every competitor identified themselves as belonging to a traditional style, every one of them engaged in secret auxiliary combat training”

By the 1920′s both Western boxing and Japanese Judo had found there way to China and had made a huge impact on many martial artists. However, due to nationalistic and style pride, many did not openly admit to it!

Other examples of denial of reality manifested themselves at the event. The 2nd place winner, Chu Kao-Lou, openly admitted he also trained in Western boxing. One Taiji master complained that Chu’s fighting style was not using Chinese Martial Arts, to which Chu’s brother, Chu Kao-Chen, challenged the Taiji master. In respond, the Taiji master didn’t dare to accept that challenge.

Other quotes regarding the event

- 这次比赛没有看到高深的内功，没有发人于丈外的场面
You don’t see high level internal power, and Faijin that send people flying 10 feet away in this tournament.

- 太极打法毫无建树，四量难拨千斤
The Taiji principle didn’t work well. 4 oz could not defeat 1000 lb.

- 也就是说号称以巧取胜的中国功夫 实际上也是在跟人拚勇力比高大
The taller, heavier, stronger guys won in that tournament.

- 要学打擂台的拳术
After this tournament, people wanted to learn the style that can be used on the Leitai.

[Scott R. Brown]

Whenever I am about to get into a fight I always tell the bad guy (I am always the good guy, because I fight for truth, justice and the American Way!) not to hit me in the face.

They laugh and say to me, this is a fight! Of course I am going to hit you in the face!

I reply, it is easy to have that attitude when one is as ugly as you are, you have nothing to lose, but I am handsome and the women say so! Thus I always win a moral victory whether I win or lose the fight, because I am handsome and they are not, so either way I win!

Step!

[GeneChing]

...I now have the undeniable urge to hit Scott in the face. Who's with me?

Nothing personal, Scott. This is a martial forum, after all.

[Scott R. Brown]

...I now have the undeniable urge to hit Scott in the face. Who's with me?

Nothing personal, Scott. This is a martial forum, after all.

I knew someone would say that!

And of course I have a reply, because I am a social commentator:

You are just jealous because I am handsome! It is easy to not care when you have nothing to lose! :p

It can be such a burden sometimes, being beautiful........ er....... I mean handsome! :cool:

[Bernard]

...I now have the undeniable urge to hit Scott in the face. Who's with me?

Nothing personal, Scott. This is a martial forum, after all.

I with you!!! :D


I knew someone would say that!

And of course I have a reply, because I am a social commentator:

You are just jealous because I am handsome! It is easy to not care when you have nothing to lose! :p

It can be such a burden sometimes, being beautiful........ er....... I mean handsome! :cool:

Hey Scott, you have one of these to put on when you fight?

http://cache.desktopnexus.com/thumbnails/77413-bigthumbnail.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

In October 1928 three Chinese generals, Zhang Zhi Jiang (张之江), Li Lie Jun (李烈鈞) and Li Jing Lin (李景林) organized the first public full contact competition in China. The purpose of the competition was to select qualified teachers for the newly founded Central Kuoshu Institute (中南國術館),

Of course, many traditional masters did not compete because they believed their skills could only be proven in serious duels and not “sporting” contests. However, the event attracted hundreds of the best Chinese martial artists who participated in three separate divisions; (1) “boxing”, (2) weapons sparring ad (3) wrestling (aka Shuai Jiao).

In the “boxing” division, competition was suspended after a few days due to the injuries. The event was held with very few rules, but more importantly without any gloves or protective gear. Like the early UFC’s many fighters injured their hands and legs, unaccustomed to actually striking the elbows and knees used to block. The last 12 contestants were not permitted to continue, the public excuse being the “fear of killing off some of the greatest masters of the time”. The overall winner was voted on by a jury of his peers!

The next year a similar event was held in Hangzhou, China. This event was also organized by Li Jinglin, then acting as vice-dean of the Central Martial Arts Academy. This time there were 125 entrants for the “boxing” or “free fighting” (San Shou) competition which was held November 21-27. The event was very popular, the audiences every day numbered in the tens of thousands.

The tournament had few rules, they were not allowed to attack the eyes, throat or groin – anyone breaching these rules was disqualified. However, the event also had a flaw in the rules, in the event of a draw BOTH contestants advanced to the next round. By the end of the first day, more than half the contests had ended in draws! The rules were quickly changed so that in the event of a draw both contestants were eliminated.

With this, the competitors didn’t hold back and many people were hurt, mostly with head injuries. The judges’ committee instituted a new rule in response, stating that contestants were not allowed to continually attack the head! The history of Chinese martial arts fighting competitions is full of instances of poor organization, irrational rules, random rule changes and rules which defy logic and reality of combat.

Zhao Daoxin was a disciple of Zhang Zhaodong and was famous in Tianjin’s martial arts community. Zhao was only 20 at the time and at the beginning of his martial arts career, yet managed to achieve 13th place. His notes on the competition included these observations;


“Those ‘orthodox inheritors’ of traditional martial arts, regardless of whether they were lofty monks or local grandmasters, were either knocked out or scared out of the competition”

Zhao also noted;


“Even though, at registration, every competitor identified themselves as belonging to a traditional style, every one of them engaged in secret auxiliary combat training”

By the 1920′s both Western boxing and Japanese Judo had found there way to China and had made a huge impact on many martial artists. However, due to nationalistic and style pride, many did not openly admit to it!

Other examples of denial of reality manifested themselves at the event. The 2nd place winner, Chu Kao-Lou, openly admitted he also trained in Western boxing. One Taiji master complained that Chu’s fighting style was not using Chinese Martial Arts, to which Chu’s brother, Chu Kao-Chen, challenged the Taiji master. In respond, the Taiji master didn’t dare to accept that challenge.

Other quotes regarding the event

- 这次比赛没有看到高深的内功，没有发人于丈外的场面
You don’t see high level internal power, and Faijin that send people flying 10 feet away in this tournament.

- 太极打法毫无建树，四量难拨千斤
The Taiji principle didn’t work well. 4 oz could not defeat 1000 lb.

- 也就是说号称以巧取胜的中国功夫 实际上也是在跟人拚勇力比高大
The taller, heavier, stronger guys won in that tournament.

- 要学打擂台的拳术
After this tournament, people wanted to learn the style that can be used on the Leitai.

Classic !!

[Robinhood]

In October 1928 three Chinese generals, Zhang Zhi Jiang (张之江), Li Lie Jun (李烈鈞) and Li Jing Lin (李景林) organized the first public full contact competition in China. The purpose of the competition was to select qualified teachers for the newly founded Central Kuoshu Institute (中南國術館),

Of course, many traditional masters did not compete because they believed their skills could only be proven in serious duels and not “sporting” contests. However, the event attracted hundreds of the best Chinese martial artists who participated in three separate divisions; (1) “boxing”, (2) weapons sparring ad (3) wrestling (aka Shuai Jiao).

In the “boxing” division, competition was suspended after a few days due to the injuries. The event was held with very few rules, but more importantly without any gloves or protective gear. Like the early UFC’s many fighters injured their hands and legs, unaccustomed to actually striking the elbows and knees used to block. The last 12 contestants were not permitted to continue, the public excuse being the “fear of killing off some of the greatest masters of the time”. The overall winner was voted on by a jury of his peers!

The next year a similar event was held in Hangzhou, China. This event was also organized by Li Jinglin, then acting as vice-dean of the Central Martial Arts Academy. This time there were 125 entrants for the “boxing” or “free fighting” (San Shou) competition which was held November 21-27. The event was very popular, the audiences every day numbered in the tens of thousands.

The tournament had few rules, they were not allowed to attack the eyes, throat or groin – anyone breaching these rules was disqualified. However, the event also had a flaw in the rules, in the event of a draw BOTH contestants advanced to the next round. By the end of the first day, more than half the contests had ended in draws! The rules were quickly changed so that in the event of a draw both contestants were eliminated.

With this, the competitors didn’t hold back and many people were hurt, mostly with head injuries. The judges’ committee instituted a new rule in response, stating that contestants were not allowed to continually attack the head! The history of Chinese martial arts fighting competitions is full of instances of poor organization, irrational rules, random rule changes and rules which defy logic and reality of combat.

Zhao Daoxin was a disciple of Zhang Zhaodong and was famous in Tianjin’s martial arts community. Zhao was only 20 at the time and at the beginning of his martial arts career, yet managed to achieve 13th place. His notes on the competition included these observations;


“Those ‘orthodox inheritors’ of traditional martial arts, regardless of whether they were lofty monks or local grandmasters, were either knocked out or scared out of the competition”

Zhao also noted;


“Even though, at registration, every competitor identified themselves as belonging to a traditional style, every one of them engaged in secret auxiliary combat training”

By the 1920′s both Western boxing and Japanese Judo had found there way to China and had made a huge impact on many martial artists. However, due to nationalistic and style pride, many did not openly admit to it!

Other examples of denial of reality manifested themselves at the event. The 2nd place winner, Chu Kao-Lou, openly admitted he also trained in Western boxing. One Taiji master complained that Chu’s fighting style was not using Chinese Martial Arts, to which Chu’s brother, Chu Kao-Chen, challenged the Taiji master. In respond, the Taiji master didn’t dare to accept that challenge.

Other quotes regarding the event

- 这次比赛没有看到高深的内功，没有发人于丈外的场面
You don’t see high level internal power, and Faijin that send people flying 10 feet away in this tournament.

- 太极打法毫无建树，四量难拨千斤
The Taiji principle didn’t work well. 4 oz could not defeat 1000 lb.

- 也就是说号称以巧取胜的中国功夫 实际上也是在跟人拚勇力比高大
The taller, heavier, stronger guys won in that tournament.

- 要学打擂台的拳术
After this tournament, people wanted to learn the style that can be used on the Leitai.

What's your point ?, strong defeats weak ?, that's not an art, there is art out there, you just need to find it, but it might not like you, so then that might make it just that much harder for you to find it.

Good Luck

[Syn7]

...I now have the undeniable urge to hit Scott in the face. Who's with me?

Nothing personal, Scott. This is a martial forum, after all.

You just know you look like a villain. Work that ****!

[Scott R. Brown]

What's your point ?, strong defeats weak ?, that's not an art, there is art out there, you just need to find it, but it might not like you, so then that might make it just that much harder for you to find it.

Good Luck

Art doesn't matter when a grandma with a .38 makes it a moot point!

[Scott R. Brown]

You just know you look like a villain. Work that ****!

Khaaaaaaaaaannnn!!!!!!

I mean.......

Geeeeeeeeeeeene!

Hmmm, loses something in the translation! :(

[Syn7]

Killing masters is the only way to be the best fighter. If your goal is to be hardcore, you kinda need to be a dick about it.


Hardcore is tearing out throats and skull ****ing your competition. Not deflecting their strikes and making them say uncle.

Being a beast isn't the only way to achieve martial excellence, but if we want to be honest, the beasts usually win.

[Scott R. Brown]

Killing masters is the only way to be the best fighter. If your goal is to be hardcore, you kinda need to be a dick about it.


Hardcore is tearing out throats and skull ****ing your competition. Not deflecting their strikes and making them say uncle.

Being a beast isn't the only way to achieve martial excellence, but if we want to be honest, the beasts usually win.

Or the geek with a gun can be a wake for call for the guy who thinks being a beast is where its at, then calling "UNCLE" all of a sudden becomes a viable option.

[YouKnowWho]

Other quotes regarding the event

- 这次比赛没有看到高深的内功，没有发人于丈外的场面
You don’t see high level internal power, and Faijin that send people flying 10 feet away in this tournament.

- 太极打法毫无建树，四量难拨千斤
The Taiji principle didn’t work well. 4 oz could not defeat 1000 lb.

- 也就是说号称以巧取胜的中国功夫 实际上也是在跟人拚勇力比高大
The taller, heavier, stronger guys won in that tournament.

- 要学打擂台的拳术
After this tournament, people wanted to learn the style that can be used on the Leitai.

I was the "other".

[David Jamieson]

Here's a question.

Are the TCMA failings of the 20's and the 50's even relevant now?
Why are the same examples used over and over again?

Why are the same tactics and strategies used to diminish one line of martial arts over another?

Old man Wu and Chan Hak Fu were not fighters. That's plain to see.

So, does any of that apply to the here and now of your training? Most everyone here has seen boxing, wrestling, mma in some format or another.

If you know all these things are out there, why on earth would you continue doing Kung Fu if it was anything Like what Dave here says it is?

Do you not spar in your gwoon? Do you not do drills? Do you not use resistence training and do strength and stamina development?

Your school or club is legitimize as a fighting school if it consistently fronts fighters into venues. That's a simple thing to figure out and if you want that, you can fin places to go get that with ever more ease nowadays.

Now, what if you are interested in Ch'an? What if you are interested in teh sets and forms and qigongs? Then what does all the fighting matter to you?

If you are an older practictioner, I'm gonna say that I doubt you fight with any seriousness or intensity and probably do some sparring for the heck of it now and then, but likely don't go hard and full blast, because that's kind of dumb to do without a goal to do it for.

So what then? Why do people think Kung fu is originally about fighting? It's not.
I think some people want to make it that so they can continue to take shots at all teh esoteric stuff that goes on the side or so they can poke fun at the dramatic performance wu shu clubs (which by the way, most "fighters" cannot do what they do an vice versa)

Kung Fu is holistic development and cultivation of a human being. If you think it's juts martial art, then your understanding is limited at best from what I understand of it and that's literally dozen of years, several teachers, volumes of books and a lot of hitting an being hit. Probably a similar experience to many guys here.

I just don't go for this limited understanding pigeon holing of kung fu into some kind of glorified kickboxing status.

Kung Fu is for personal development on a lot fo other levels beyond physicality. If not, WTF are you doing meditating, go run some track. Put that sword down! What are you doing? You don't need that sword to fight etc etc etc. :p

Blanketing all kung fu under the viewpoint that "it's supposed to be for fighting" is limiting and limited in scope and that isn't what Kung Fu IS.

[Syn7]

Or the geek with a gun can be a wake for call for the guy who thinks being a beast is where its at, then calling "UNCLE" all of a sudden becomes a viable option.

Being a beast means shooting first. A gun may HELP even odds but is not always an equalizer against others who actually use them.

[MightyB]

Here's a question.

Are the TCMA failings of the 20's and the 50's even relevant now?
Why are the same examples used over and over again?

Why are the same tactics and strategies used to diminish one line of martial arts over another?

Old man Wu and Chan Hak Fu were not fighters. That's plain to see.

So, does any of that apply to the here and now of your training? Most everyone here has seen boxing, wrestling, mma in some format or another.

If you know all these things are out there, why on earth would you continue doing Kung Fu if it was anything Like what Dave here says it is?

Do you not spar in your gwoon? Do you not do drills? Do you not use resistence training and do strength and stamina development?

Your school or club is legitimize as a fighting school if it consistently fronts fighters into venues. That's a simple thing to figure out and if you want that, you can fin places to go get that with ever more ease nowadays.

Now, what if you are interested in Ch'an? What if you are interested in teh sets and forms and qigongs? Then what does all the fighting matter to you?

If you are an older practictioner, I'm gonna say that I doubt you fight with any seriousness or intensity and probably do some sparring for the heck of it now and then, but likely don't go hard and full blast, because that's kind of dumb to do without a goal to do it for.

So what then? Why do people think Kung fu is originally about fighting? It's not.
I think some people want to make it that so they can continue to take shots at all teh esoteric stuff that goes on the side or so they can poke fun at the dramatic performance wu shu clubs (which by the way, most "fighters" cannot do what they do an vice versa)

Kung Fu is holistic development and cultivation of a human being. If you think it's juts martial art, then your understanding is limited at best from what I understand of it and that's literally dozen of years, several teachers, volumes of books and a lot of hitting an being hit. Probably a similar experience to many guys here.

I just don't go for this limited understanding pigeon holing of kung fu into some kind of glorified kickboxing status.

Kung Fu is for personal development on a lot fo other levels beyond physicality. If not, WTF are you doing meditating, go run some track. Put that sword down! What are you doing? You don't need that sword to fight etc etc etc. :p

Blanketing all kung fu under the viewpoint that "it's supposed to be for fighting" is limiting and limited in scope and that isn't what Kung Fu IS.


Kung fu (and all martial arts) is our golf. It's no different than a bunch of middle aged men playing softball. It doesn't have to mean anything and it doesn't mean anything. It's our way of hanging out. It's LARPING.

[David Jamieson]

Kung fu (and all martial arts) is our golf. It's no different than a bunch of middle aged men playing softball. It doesn't have to mean anything and it doesn't mean anything. It's our way of hanging out. It's LARPING.

Yes, here in this forum it is indeed that.

But I bet my Kung Fu practice looks different than yours and the next guys and vice versa and so on.

But on the other hand, in boxing club, one to the next the training is really really similar if not outright the same with slight modifications. This is because boxing is a standardized sport and that can be done.


Kung Fu is NOT sport and covers material that goes form the realm of creative anachronism to here and now ways to hurt someone to how to heal yourself through personal physical therapy etc etc.

If we were all boxers, would this be larping too?

I don't give something more validity because it is standardized. I just acknowledge that it is standardized. :)

[MightyB]

If we were all boxers, would this be larping too?
:)

If it's for recreation, then yes - it's larping. Seriously, we're never going to have to use this stuff, so it is recreation. Even my Judo is just larping and I compete with that, but I t'ain't ever going to be a Jimmy Pedro or Ronda Rousey, so it's just me Larping away with a bunch of friends playing a game of "what if's".

This isn't a bad thing - it's liberating. Play how you want to play and f*ck everybody else thinks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that if you train a MA how it was intended there MAY be a degree of LARP'ing in the the sense that you are indeed "playing a role".
When I did kenjutsu and did demos we would dress in traditional Japanese samurai attire and I always felt silly of course, but it was a cultural thing.
I never wear TMA clothing when I work out, why?
I think that if you play at doing MA instead of TRAINING MA, then you are seriously LARP'ing.

[David Jamieson]

If it's for recreation, then yes - it's larping. Seriously, we're never going to have to use this stuff, so it is recreation. Even my Judo is just larping and I compete with that, but I t'ain't ever going to be a Jimmy Pedro or Ronda Rousey, so it's just me Larping away with a bunch of friends playing a game of "what if's".

This isn't a bad thing - it's liberating. Play how you want to play and f*ck everybody else thinks.

I knocked a guy out and broke his arm for attempting to rape a friend of mine.
Does that count as using your art justifiably?


But yeah, seminars, sessions, meet ups, group touch and feel is all our kind of larping. :)

[MightyB]

But yeah, seminars, sessions, meet ups, group touch and feel is all our kind of larping. :)

yup... exactly. LARPING. Bring on the wenches!

[MightyB]

I knocked a guy out and broke his arm for attempting to rape a friend of mine.
Does that count as using your art justifiably?


The moves are still there if you look for them... but it really doesn't matter that much. In this same regard - someone pulling off a wicked aerial while flinging around a bit of tin foil is still doing kung fu. Someone standing pigeon toed and playing a game of paper rock scissors slap with a bud is still doing kung fu. Lion dancing is kung fu. Thinking deep thoughts about how you're massively going to be able to kick arse while standing post is kung fu. It's all kung fu. It's also LARPING.

[lkfmdc]

Are the TCMA failings of the 20's and the 50's even relevant now?
Why are the same examples used over and over again?



Of course they are. History always has a direct relationship to present.

Why are the same examples used? Because they are good examples. Munich taught us about appeasement. Vietnam taught us about entering ill defined wars with questionable justifications. Etc etc etc




Old man Wu and Chan Hak Fu were not fighters. That's plain to see.



If it was so "plain to see" why was an article published last year that tried to justify the whole thing and tried to paint it as some high level kung fu that we just couldn't see clearly (being low level peasants and all)

And the fact it was a recent article goes back to your assertion that somehow the past doesn't matter nor has impact upon the present...




If you know all these things are out there, why on earth would you continue doing Kung Fu if it was anything Like what Dave here says it is?



People go to fortune tellers and mystics and have their "charts read"... People travel to PI to have fake "mystic healers" pull chicken guts out of their sleeves and announce that they've healed people ... people fall for and believe in all sorts of crap that on the surface they should never fall for




So what then? Why do people think Kung fu is originally about fighting?


Because it is. You can post, jump, hold your breath, whatever as much and as long as you like, but you can't really re-write history. Kung Fu was about fighting.




I just don't go for this limited understanding pigeon holing of kung fu into some kind of glorified kickboxing status.



There you go! I knew you couldn't resist... except, of course, that in reality is IS just "glorified kickboxing"... kung fu is just kicks and punches like every other martial art

Frankly when two forum members asked me (repeatedly) to return to the forum, my only temptation was to watch you writh in pain at my posts... so thanks for that

[Robinhood]

Art doesn't matter when a grandma with a .38 makes it a moot point!


It will matter after Obama takes away everyone's guns , !

[Kellen Bassette]

In October 1928 three Chinese generals, Zhang Zhi Jiang (张之江), Li Lie Jun (李烈鈞) and Li Jing Lin (李景林) organized the first public full contact competition in China.

This is almost definitely not the first public lei tai event in Chinese history.

[Frost]

This is almost definitely not the first public lei tai event in Chinese history.

it was the first sanctioned by the government and nationwide i believe, and some people still seem not to be able to learn from histories mistakes lol

And the same examples are used over and over because
1) they all have a common theme and a still relevant one
2) there aren't that many other examples to use (which should be a red flag right there)

[David Jamieson]

Of course they are. History always has a direct relationship to present. Nevertheless more context is required than using the same example which is quite literally one of the worst examples.


Why are the same examples used? Because they are good examples. Munich taught us about appeasement. Vietnam taught us about entering ill defined wars with questionable justifications. Etc etc etc Why not use something like say Mike Patterson's Lei Tai vids then? Are they not also good examples of what TCMA looks like or what goes on with it when it is used in that capacity?




If it was so "plain to see" why was an article published last year that tried to justify the whole thing and tried to paint it as some high level kung fu that we just couldn't see clearly (being low level peasants and all) Fools will be fools and will attempt to justify foolish things. That doesn't paint all people as ignorant becasue on person stands up and displays his ignorance loud and proud.



And the fact it was a recent article goes back to your assertion that somehow the past doesn't matter nor has impact upon the present... I understand the connectivity of events through time, results, symptoms and outcomes. I am pointing out that the same examples are used and they are not the whole scope of it and not the best examples and in fact only support a negative outlook on the whole through their continued use. That's my assertion.




People go to fortune tellers and mystics and have their "charts read"... People travel to PI to have fake "mystic healers" pull chicken guts out of their sleeves and announce that they've healed people ... people fall for and believe in all sorts of crap that on the surface they should never fall for

People pray to invisible sky creatures. yes, people do silly things and cling to imaginary BS. That is something we all do in some way shape or form whether it is a false construct we keep or a viewpoint we express. Is a myth better if more people get behind it? Is it more real or valid because more individual support it or does the inherent reality outweigh the viewpoints of the faithful?




Because it is. You can post, jump, hold your breath, whatever as much and as long as you like, but you can't really re-write history. Kung Fu was about fighting. No, no it's not. Kung Fu is Time and effort. Originally in context to a lot of people who do martial arts, it has different start points. Military, religious, medical etc. Kung Fu is personal cultivation with an eye towards understanding that sh1t happens and the superior man prepares himself. if Kung Fu was only about fighting then it would be wrong to say Steven Hawking has Kung Fu in theoretical mathematics. Which he does an which anyone who understands the phrase or words "Kung Fu" would get. Fighting and training to fight is part of the Martial Arts Kung Fu. Kung Fu fighters, should exactly be what you are speaking of. But not all who do Kung Fu are fighters and many train for health, personal growth, insight etc etc etc. I wouldn't limit my understanding of Kung Fu down to something that is a segment fo the spirit of the concept IE: fighting.




There you go! I knew you couldn't resist... except, of course, that in reality is IS just "glorified kickboxing"... kung fu is just kicks and punches like every other martial art

Frankly when two forum members asked me (repeatedly) to return to the forum, my only temptation was to watch you writh in pain at my posts... so thanks for that
You think far too much of yourself Dave. lol. If only you could have that kind of power over someone. That is a strange desire, but I leave you with it. If I recall correctly, you are the one prone to storming off the forum when people disagree with you or you are unable to articulate your point beyond making brash statements such as you do in your efforts to proselytize your viewpoint of martial arts, which I don't really share with you in many respects.

[lkfmdc]

Fools will be fools and will attempt to justify foolish things.



Indeed David Jamieson, indeed......




Kung Fu is personal cultivation... blah blah blah



General Qi Jiguang (1528-1587) - “New Book of Effective Discipline” (1561) and “Actual Record of Training” (1571).

Kung Fu for COMBAT, no personal cultivation, no claims of Buddhist or Daoist origin, none of the clap trap and BS we see today

You can post for 1000 years but it will NOT change the FACT that kung fu was a fighting art and exclusively a fighting art for MOST of it's history. Only in recent history did peple attempt to wrap it in the cultivation cow dung and connect it to spiritual practices....




You think far too much of yourself Dave.


I simply know the fact that I post irritates you and that no matter what you can't resist trying to tear it down and that as long as I post you will continue to counter post....

Consider the fact that I provide FACTS to advance my artuments while you continue ot just voice your OPINIONS with no substantiation.....

[David Jamieson]

Indeed David Jamieson, indeed...... ok.




General Qi Jiguang (1528-1587) - “New Book of Effective Discipline” (1561) and “Actual Record of Training” (1571). A general and his viewpoint on martial arts. Nice, but not the whole subject.



Kung Fu for COMBAT, no personal cultivation, no claims of Buddhist or Daoist origin, none of the clap trap and BS we see today you've seem to already sold yourself the idea that personal cultivation is not a worthwhile effort and so you call it BS and rail hard against it in the area of Chinese Martial Arts, which oddly has a tradition of personal cultivation built in.


You can post for 1000 years but it will NOT change the FACT that kung fu was a fighting art and exclusively a fighting art for MOST of it's history. Only in recent history did people attempt to wrap it in the cultivation cow dung and connect it to spiritual practices.... In context to Shaolin martial arts, you are wrong Dave. You want to dismiss all the rest that goes with it because you've dismissed it from your life it would seem. To that end, you think you know it all and persistently build a wall around yourself to any critique of that viewpoint. this is why you get angry and storm off and it's why you think others are stupid for not sharing your view, even though your view is your own and anyone would recognize it for what it is. IE: opinion.




I simply know the fact that I post irritates you and that no matter what you can't resist trying to tear it down and that as long as I post you will continue to counter post.... Again, you wish you were so important in this regards, but I will tell you what is odd about you from my viewpoint. It's this. When Chan Tai San was still alive you never uttered a word of any of this. When he passed, you jumped to market yourself as his student etc etc and all the while failing to clearly articulate and making yourself appear to abandon and cling to his teachings all at the same time. You have effectively created the chaotic dross you surround yourself with. That is odd, but, I really don't care much about you outside of what you post here Dave. That you think that people take that much time out of their lives to give you consideration is your own narcissism. That's your issue and not mine, so I hope that's clear to you. Your existence is irrelevant to me outside of the context of this forum. I think that despite your education in Chinese martial arts, you're diminishment of same through your rants is odd. That's all.


Consider the fact that I provide FACTS to advance my artuments while you continue ot just voice your OPINIONS with no substantiation.....

You don't though Dave. You use blinders to block out that which contradicts you and only hold up that which you can manipulate into your story.

I talk about Dao Yin, Dhayan, Ch'an and Zen being part and parcel to Kung Fu overall and you go off on tangents about generals.

Facts my ass Dave. You support yourself through a manipulative monologue that excludes a lot of facts that you don't want to address, deal with or make admissions of your incorrect opinion about the whole.

So, I guess it's your sloppy and belligerent approach that is odd as well. You aren't entirely wrong, you just lose sight of the big picture in favour of pushing your agenda which in turn is what floats your boat. That's cool, but it isn't the facts an it isn't the truth of it all and it is your opinion based on what you've decided to pull out of the cherry tree.

there's far better educated folk on the subject than you, and it's not hard to find dozens of works that refute what you have to say about Kung Fu being "only" fighting.

[lkfmdc]

A general and his viewpoint on martial arts. Nice, but not the whole subject.



I could bury you and the forum in sources... this is just one glaring example and famous one that many other martial artist in China have cited...

Again, you spread your OPINIONS yet never offer concrete evidence




When Chan Tai San was still alive you never uttered a word of any of this. When he passed, you jumped to market yourself as his student etc etc



You bloated wind bag... talking about things you were never around for and have no idea about

You are 100% WRONG... ask Chris or Mike about it. Or read articles I wrote when CTS was alive and well....

It's amazing how you can put your foot in your mouth, actling like you have some idea what you are talking about, despite the facts smaking you in the face.

I am not the only one amazed that Gene let's a biased belligerent hillbilly with strong tendency to rant and go on personal vendettas "moderate"... it's pretty sad and major reason this place is the stink hole it is

[Frost]

I could bury you and the forum in sources... this is just one glaring example and famous one that many other martial artist in China have cited...

Again, you spread your OPINIONS yet never offer concrete evidence



You bloated wind bag... talking about things you were never around for and have no idea about

You are 100% WRONG... ask Chris or Mike about it. Or read articles I wrote when CTS was alive and well....

It's amazing how you can put your foot in your mouth, actling like you have some idea what you are talking about, despite the facts smaking you in the face.

I am not the only one amazed that Gene let's a biased belligerent hillbilly with strong tendency to rant and go on personal vendettas "moderate"... it's pretty sad and major reason this place is the stink hole it is

If i remember rightly Dave posted here way before his sifu passed, and wrote several articles as well which were published so Jamison back up your claim as its a bad one

And i have yet to see one thing from jamison which is sourced and provable

[David Jamieson]

If i remember rightly Dave posted here way before his sifu passed, and wrote several articles as well which were published so Jamison back up your claim as its a bad one

And i have yet to see one thing from jamison which is sourced and provable

Nice, I shall consider you Dave's lapdog I guess. But you're wrong. Daves online trail isn't hard to find, read, figure out etc. The tale of time is there. Now, I'm gonna respond to Dave. :-)

[lkfmdc]

Nice, I shall consider you Dave's lapdog I guess. But you're wrong. Daves online trail isn't hard to find, read, figure out etc. The tale of time is there. Now, I'm gonna respond to Dave. :-)

more non-speak from the bloated Canadian turd...

Let's all remember he wasn't in NYC when CTS was alive.

Let's all remember that I WAS on this very forum (making Jamieson twitch) while CTS was alive and well....

If it isn't so hard to find... put up evidence to support your claim,,,,, but we already know you never do that... you rattle on like the empty shell you are and never back up what you say....

Online trails aren't hard to dig up, maybe we should dig up some of Jamieson's legendary failures

[Frost]

Nice, I shall consider you Dave's lapdog I guess. But you're wrong. Daves online trail isn't hard to find, read, figure out etc. The tale of time is there. Now, I'm gonna respond to Dave. :-)

and ill consider you a basement dwelling muppet :) I read articles from David back in the 90's in magazines about Lama Pai, and i read his posts here so i know the time line very well, im just amazed a so called impartial mod would snap like this :eek:

[David Jamieson]

I could bury you and the forum in sources... this is just one glaring example and famous one that many other martial artist in China have cited...

Again, you spread your OPINIONS yet never offer concrete evidence



You bloated wind bag... talking about things you were never around for and have no idea about

You are 100% WRONG... ask Chris or Mike about it. Or read articles I wrote when CTS was alive and well....

It's amazing how you can put your foot in your mouth, actling like you have some idea what you are talking about, despite the facts smaking you in the face.

I am not the only one amazed that Gene let's a biased belligerent hillbilly with strong tendency to rant and go on personal vendettas "moderate"... it's pretty sad and major reason this place is the stink hole it is


Dave, for someone who has as much wind as you, that's pretty rich! "Bloated" even better. Whatever. Your opinions are yours and mine are mine. I stand by my viewpoint and opinion and what facts would you like? You know very well my viewpoint is widely accepted and in fact, is probably much more accepted than your desire to change holistic self cultivation arts into bloodsport based on the fighting segment of the developed man.

I have read all your stuff from when CTS was alive Dave, and you were WAY more soft shoe on your whole slicing the art off the fighting part. So, if someone wanted to take the time, they could. Otherwise, you're full of it as per usual.

As for your vitriol and hatred towards me and your constant complaining about my moderation here I am surprised that you would even bother coming back here!

Now, I guess I just wait until you get really rude, belligerence etc and get all hot and bothered and then storm off again because You can't tell me what to say or do and your hate grows. You are weak Dave. Like a child caught red handed with a lie, you just go into contrary mode. That's your personality with me. I don't care.

Just don't be a jerk and try to play nice. I'm perfectly willing to argue like men otherwise. It seems you haven't changed much though, so I'll deal with you as you are able to understand as per usual.

Dave, you and the other trolls who got banned outta here for being juvenile brats not liking me is no great surprise. You may continue to cry about it, or man up and argue like a man, not a spoiled little boy with a **** poor attitude.

Now tell me, do you carry the style banner? Do you teach the way you were taught? You claim to have developed from that, but have clearly taken a different path.

Kind regards otherwise. :p

[lkfmdc]

You know very well my viewpoint is widely accepted an in fact



You have a long history here of claiming "fact" and being proven completely wrong. Should we dig up your famous claim that in the US people who are poor are put in jail for being in debt? That was a fabulous trounching where you backtracked and claimed you never made the claim. You never offer evidence, just make claims and then try to play it off, to FAILURE each and every time




I have read all your stuff from when CTS was alive Dave



A minute ago you said it was easy to dig this up and you would prove it

Yet, AGAIN, no evidence

Just your pathetic CLAIM... back up what you say, it might convince us you are more than a sock puppet




As for your vitriol and hatred towards me and your constant complaining about my moderation here I am surprised that you would even bother coming back here!



I am not the only one who thinks you are a complete clown. There are two moderators here who agree, one who even has one of your absurd comments as a sig line (should be easy to figure that one out)

I already said
1. I came back to watch you squirm
and
2. You wouldn't be able to resist sticking your bloated head into my threads and trying to assert yourself

Right on both counts





You can't tell me what to say or do


Unlike you, who tries to abuse his position as "moderator" to try to do that to peple you don't agree with :rolleyes:




Dave, you and the other trolls who got banned outta here



Obviously, facts are not your strong suit. IN fact, the entire concept seems to evade you

I wasn't "banned" I ASKED to be banner! So I could ignore losers like you. It's very easy to verify, GENE POSTED ABOUT IT!

In summary, you never back up your claims, you have a long history of saying ridiculous things and backing away when confronted with facts. Not to mention your anti-American and anti-semitic rants which would have had you banned from any decent forum....

[bawang]

pls dont get banned mighty david ross, you are a ray of sunshine to this forum.

stay calm and lets focus on positive things, like changes to your school over the years, method of teaching, applying your fist seeds in sanda, etc pls, i love hearing those stuff.

we can address problems in kung fu, but lets also talk about the solutions.

when you were banned, i mourned you like i mourn my own father.

[lkfmdc]

Finding threads on the internet IS easy...

Here is a classic example of Jamieson claiming "facts"only to be proven wrong

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=863882&postcount=241

[David Jamieson]

You have a long history here of claiming "fact" and being proven completely wrong. Should we dig up your famous claim that in the US people who are poor are put in jail for being in debt? That was a fabulous trounching where you backtracked and claimed you never made the claim. You never offer evidence, just make claims and then try to play it off, to FAILURE each and every time
Are you on some kind of bizarre political campaign or something Dave? lol You think that because you say it again and again it becomes truer and truer. I don't want to be the one who has to explain reality to you. :p



A minute ago you said it was easy to dig this up and you would prove it

Yet, AGAIN, no evidence

Just your pathetic CLAIM... back up what you say, it might convince us you are more than a sock puppet I said no such thing. BUt you go ahead and show me where I said that. Youa re saying it's easy to do after all, so go ahead.




I am not the only one who thinks you are a complete clown. There are two moderators here who agree, one who even has one of your absurd comments as a sig line (should be easy to figure that one out) Looking for friends Dave? It's no secret that MK and I aren't on the same wavelength. You see, there is a genius to that fact in that it really does create an envrionment where multiple points of view are possible. Fwiw, I feel exactly the same on teh opposite side of the coin to your sentiments. So that comes out as =/=.



I already said
1. I came back to watch you squirm
and
2. You wouldn't be able to resist sticking your bloated head into my threads and trying to assert yourself

Right on both counts

1. you'll wait a long time to see me squirm about your idiotic antics dave.

2. If you drop invectives and insults and expect me to be all buddhist sage about it, you are a stupid stupid man. I don't put up with crap from a 6 year old, and I don't put up with it from you. So, I don't know what you thought would result of that, but I'm pretty sure if I poke someone with a pin, they will turn around and go, wtf did you do that for?

You're an idiot Dave. A brilliant rainbow of idiot that is entertaining in his idiocy






Unlike you, who tries to abuse his position as "moderator" to try to do that to peple you don't agree with :rolleyes: So, my not deleting your beligerrent and rude posts with all your vitriol and invective aied directly at me indictaes I am an abusive moderator.

I bet a psychiatrist would have a field day with you on the couch at times dave. I'm surprised at how hardand how long you can hang onto a burning hot stone!




Obviously, facts are not your strong suit. IN fact, the entire concept seems to evade you Obviously reality is not your favourite place to be.



I wasn't "banned" I ASKED to be banner! So I could ignore losers like you. It's very easy to verify, GENE POSTED ABOUT IT! "asked to be banned" Again, that is far more idiotic than just taking a break. You are a drama queen dave.


In summary, you never back up your claims, you have a long history of saying ridiculous things and backing away when confronted with facts. Not to mention your anti-American and anti-semitic rants which would have had you banned from any decent forum....
Dave, in my opinion, you are a half wit wash up with strong opinions and a propensity to attack people who have contrary opinions. You are belligerent, you are rude, you are incapable of communication with others unless they pay you some kind of homage you feel you deserve.

I haven't been banned from any forum. Decent or otherwise.
Anti american and anti semitic? That's rich, you know I'm a reform convert cum universalist you fool. And that's a fact jack.

But by all means, continue your campaign of hate. You look all the more stupid for it. Mind you, try to curtail it somewhat, because if you clutter up the forum too much, it will be removed.

Best regards

[lkfmdc]

It's kind of sad

David Jamieson must have severe mental and emotional problems if he can't accept that he says things that not only does he never back up, but when proven wrong, denies them and continues to rattle on...

Here we have in black and white (well, black and yellow?) countless examples of him making claims, even claiming he has evidence, then completely failing to produce such evidence

What a sad pathetic excuse for a human being you are.....

(and notice how he treatens to delete the threads that show him wrong? smh)

[Brule]

I have a feeling this will be Gene when he logs in today......

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-D-YF_pUhxss/USUWDFc1gpI/AAAAAAAAAcU/xRGVqkrP-VI/s1600/bunk-the-wire.gif

[David Jamieson]

It's kind of sad

David Jamieson must have severe mental and emotional problems if he can't accept that he says things that not only does he never back up, but when proven wrong, denies them and continues to rattle on...

Here we have in black and white (well, black and yellow?) countless examples of him making claims, even claiming he has evidence, then completely failing to produce such evidence

What a sad pathetic excuse for a human being you are.....

(and notice how he treatens to delete the threads that show him wrong? smh)


what's sad is you behaving like an overly attached 14 year old girlfriend.

really Dave, it's been years and it's like yesterday for you!

Like a fresh bouquet! Not. lol

Hey, how far do you think you'll get by spending most of your energies casting aspersion on a moderator here?

Not too bright. This is your category.

[lkfmdc]

I have a feeling this will be Gene when he logs in today......

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-D-YF_pUhxss/USUWDFc1gpI/AAAAAAAAAcU/xRGVqkrP-VI/s1600/bunk-the-wire.gif

Personally, I would have imagined that just watching Jamieson as a "moderator" would have already long ago resulted in such a reaction

I mean, it's obvious that Jamieson can't control himself, this has been going on for years (as I demonstrated).... but for a third party to give him moderating powers? Sad, so sad :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

Personally, I would have imagined that just watching Jamieson as a "moderator" would have already long ago resulted in such a reaction

I mean, it's obvious that Jamieson can't control himself, this has been going on for years (as I demonstrated).... but for a third party to give him moderating powers? Sad, so sad :rolleyes:

lol, this is awesome.

So, how's your Kung fu doing Dave? You getting any good at it yet? :p

[lkfmdc]

It's kind of sad

David Jamieson must have severe mental and emotional problems if he can't accept that he says things that not only does he never back up, but when proven wrong, denies them and continues to rattle on...

Here we have in black and white (well, black and yellow?) countless examples of him making claims, even claiming he has evidence, then completely failing to produce such evidence

He also fails to understand the concept of "discrediting the witness" which I have clearly done here so many times

What a sad pathetic excuse for a human being you are.....

[bawang]

dude pls, lets get back to being angry at kung fu, this is not fun.

[lkfmdc]

Let me edit, by now it is CLEAR David Jamieson has severe mental and emotional problems because learly he can't accept that he says things that not only does he never back up, but when proven wrong, denies them and continues to rattle on...

He simultaneously claims he doesn't care then threatens to delete my posts and ban me :rolleyes:

I reiterate, what a sad pathetic excuse for a human being you are.....

[MasterKiller]

I'm closing this one, too.