Stance Training

[Kellen Bassette]

I know many people who claim to be progressive are vehemently opposed to static stance training. There seems to be a consensus that it is a useless training method. I do have some questions and reservations, however.

Argument: Stance training does not build leg strength.

Question: When someone who has never done stance training attempts to hold a stance, they typically cannot do it for 30 seconds. After a while of training they can do it for 1 minute, then 2, then 5. How is this phenomenon possible if there wasn't some strengthening of certain muscles?

Argument: Stance training builds muscles, but only those necessary to hold that particular stance; in that specific shape. Stance training can only help you hold that particular stance longer, nothing more.

Question: I find it hard to believe that these muscles only serve one specific function, i.e. holding Ma Bu. They don't have any other uses? Whenever you do any kind of new exercise, you will have sore muscles you don't normally notice. If I run and lift weights and do aerobics everyday, then one day decide to swim 100 laps, I'm going to feel a whole new world of sore muscles. It seems to me strengthening these different groups must benefit your overall strength. Is this incorrect?

My other problem with the above argument is that it seems to make an assumption that you're only training one shape. For instance, you only train horse stance. If you train 10 different stances, your using all different muscles and angles. It seems to me that I would then be working a whole lot of different muscle groups and that should, in theory, be beneficial to my overall leg strength. Why would this not be the case?

Argument: After 2 minutes of holding a static stance there is no additional benefit.

Question: So is it beneficial to hold the stance for 2 minutes as opposed to 15?

Argument: Stance training has no direct benefit to a fighter.

Question: Putting aside mental toughness and rooting, some stances make for good stretches. Gung Bu and Pu Bu, for instance. These same stances are often trained as stretches outside the martial arts world. Some other stances are great for balance, I would consider the cat stance and the various versions of one footed stances to be helpful in maintaining balance and developing sensitivity in the ankle, to help regain compromised balance. I feel like this skill is very beneficial to a fighter. Is there no benefit to the stretching and balancing practice either?

[18elders]

the stance training also trains your proper alignment. i am shocked to see how many martial artists stances are incorrect. You need a good teacher who can show you the correct and incorrect alignment and demonstrate the difference to you.
if you do your forms in low stances it will develop leg strength so if you can move well in low stances you will be a lot quicker in a higher fighting stance.

beside the physical training, one of the major parts is the mental training, if you cannot overcome the pain in holding a stance, how can you be a true fighter? you have to be able to push your body mentally.

[MightyB]

I'll defer to this:

Do as you want, f*ck what others think.

[Kellen Bassette]

I'll defer to this:

Do as you want, f*ck what others think.

I'm not opposed to modern methods or more efficient training...I just feel like we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater on this.

[MightyB]

I'm not opposed to modern methods or more efficient training...I just feel like we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater on this.

hear you there brother. I do specific arm patterns with weights :eek: as in the way that it's been done for hundreds of years. I think it works and it helps me to keep my rock'n bod... so f*ck the haters.

[Frost]

Stances build endurance which is specific for that position they do not build maximum strength (past a basic level which can be build much quicker with other methods anyway)
Strength is both general and sports specific, the problem is general strength is build quicker faster and better with other methods, as is sports specific strength
Yes there is benefit to balance and stretch work BUT how much benefit and whether it can be built in a better way should be the question we ask ourselves
Train what you like BUT don’t ignore the secience and just rely on what others in the past did

[Kellen Bassette]

Frost, since you have a traditional and modern background...how do you feel personally about stance training? Would you forgo it completely for combat based training, or would you retain it?

If you were inclined to keep traditional stance training, how much/often would you do it...at what point do you think it stops being useful and is just wasting time?

I suspect there's no exact, scientific formula here; but what's your personal opinion?

[Frost]

I think it comes down to what are you trying to develop using the stances?
Do you want Maximum strength? Endurance? Mental toughness?Balance training or a good stretch? It all depends on your goals but for most of them I feel there are better methods, and im not alone to build strength in the legs the old chinese masters used to work the fields, do manual labour and also lift heavy weights be it weapsons, stone locks or stones, for endurance they ran lifted each other for throws over and over etc, to stretch they seemed to by chi kung or a form of yoga……when was stance training separate from forms actually brought into TCMA I wonder?
How I feel personally has changed, I went through years of stance training ever day, then I discovered powerlifting and MMA and didn’t do it for a decade, how I tend to do some form practise training everyday ( I run through hung gars 5 animals 5 elements every morning) this set includes a lot of stance work which I find useful for stretching out issues I have, I also do forms which involve heavy weapons and low stances as my sifu feels they build power issuage specific to what we need, and I agree it can help (and ecause I like doing them lo)

If I was inclined to keep stance work I would ensure it was not a separate thing, ie it involved weapons or was part of a developmental form which worked the upper body as well, like 5 animals or iron wire, and was used as a warm up and cool down

[18elders]

there is a science to it, do not just think of it as leg strengthening, you have to pay attention to your body alignment and structure. if the frame of a house is not strong it has poor structure.
so a golfer never keeps practicing their swing? Pitchers stop pitching?
Why would you stop your stance training?
Basics, basics, basics.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Static stance training I have found to be beneficial for leg conditioning and for strength in transitions, which is what is most important in training stances. There may not be strength specific benefits, but strength in rooting is there.

When doing clinch training and standing grappling, sinking your weight is essential. (Think pummeling and plum) Now from a personal standpoint stance training and the mechanics of low southern style stances improve this rooting system. Think about doing a hip throw, turning the body, sinking into a somewhat horse, before rolling the opponent over the hip. Personally stance training through the years have improved this and other methods of dropping one's weight.

But to each his own, as someone else said, Do what the f**k you want!!

[Kellen Bassette]

I'm of the opinion that stance training is beneficial, not so much because of strength, mental aspect, balance, the different things mentioned by Elders and I, ect...there are, as you say Frost, better avenues for most of these, I think the benefit lies in the fact that it is something of a combination of all these things.

I've always felt like that is a strong point with TCMA, the fact that most exercises have numerous different benefits.

Really, my agenda isn't any sort of traditional vs modern thing. I like, and am in, both camps. What I am really interested in is utilizing traditional methods to their full potential. I don't want to throw away what has value, even if something else may have more value, but I'm also not into exercises in futility or diminishing returns.

I'm hoping to strike a good balance between utilizing the old methods, progressively, and being effective in real/modern application.

[Kellen Bassette]

Static stance training I have found to be beneficial for leg conditioning and for strength in transitions, which is what is most important in training stances. There may not be strength specific benefits, but strength in rooting is there.


But what would you suggest as a good, well rounded training regimen to include these things?

Just by practicing forms, or doing static stances? 1 minute, 2, 5? Using weight resistance methods while holding stances, (old or new)? All of the above?

How much do you think is good for teaching mechanics, rooting, transition, ect. and when does it become overkill and your just wasting time that could be better spent?

These are the opinions I'm hoping to hear.

[SevenStar]

Argument: Stance training does not build leg strength.

Question: When someone who has never done stance training attempts to hold a stance, they typically cannot do it for 30 seconds. After a while of training they can do it for 1 minute, then 2, then 5. How is this phenomenon possible if there wasn't some strengthening of certain muscles?

it is a muscular endurance exercise. just as doing 100 push ups is. there is limited strengthening if the muscle is untrained. after that period, you ate building endurance, not strength. such us the case with any high rep exercise our isometric exercise held for long periods of time.


Argument: Stance training builds muscles, but only those necessary to hold that particular stance; in that specific shape. Stance training can only help you hold that particular stance longer, nothing more.

Question: I find it hard to believe that these muscles only serve one specific function, i.e. holding Ma Bu. They don't have any other uses? Whenever you do any kind of new exercise, you will have sore muscles you don't normally notice. If I run and lift weights and do aerobics everyday, then one day decide to swim 100 laps, I'm going to feel a whole new world of sore muscles. It seems to me strengthening these different groups must benefit your overall strength. Is this incorrect?

this is the nature of isometric exercises - they don't work through a range of motion, so you only get benefit in the positron being held. a squat works through a range of motion; ma bu is static, this you aren't improving throughout an entire squat motion.


My other problem with the above argument is that it seems to make an assumption that you're only training one shape. For instance, you only train horse stance. If you train 10 different stances, your using all different muscles and angles. It seems to me that I would then be working a whole lot of different muscle groups and that should, in theory, be beneficial to my overall leg strength. Why would this not be the case?


when you kick, does only one part of your leg move? no. it's a whole body movement. what you described isolates motions - the very same reason we say bodybuilding is inefficient for ma training - your body functions as a unit, so to train it in isolated quadrants is not as effective for improving ma performance as say, power lifting, which works the body as a unit.


Argument: After 2 minutes of holding a static stance there is no additional benefit.

Question: So is it beneficial to hold the stance for 2 minutes as opposed to 15?

it has a benefit, but that benefit is not strength; it's endurance.


Argument: Stance training has no direct benefit to a fighter.

Question: Putting aside mental toughness and rooting, some stances make for good stretches. Gung Bu and Pu Bu, for instance. These same stances are often trained as stretches outside the martial arts world. Some other stances are great for balance, I would consider the cat stance and the various versions of one footed stances to be helpful in maintaining balance and developing sensitivity in the ankle, to help regain compromised balance. I feel like this skill is very beneficial to a fighter. Is there no benefit to the stretching and balancing practice either?

you don't need formal stance training for that. gung bu is indeed a great stretch, but a person doesn't have to know it is a stance, and never needs to hold that stretch longer than two minutes. stances are great for throwing. judo guys use gung bu, ma bu, sou pan bu and jin ji du li regularly, but they have no idea that they are even doing them. they are used in throwing and transitions. the stance isn't taught at all and the stances are never named.

[SevenStar]

the stance training also trains your proper alignment. i am shocked to see how many martial artists stances are incorrect. You need a good teacher who can show you the correct and incorrect alignment and demonstrate the difference to you.
if you do your forms in low stances it will develop leg strength so if you can move well in low stances you will be a lot quicker in a higher fighting stance.

beside the physical training, one of the major parts is the mental training, if you cannot overcome the pain in holding a stance, how can you be a true fighter? you have to be able to push your body mentally.

I agree with your points, but stance training isn't necessary for those things. boxers and wrestlers don't stance train, and their pain tolerance is pretty high. also, they both move very fast.

it's just a different training methodology. it isn't required, just another means to a similar end.

[Kellen Bassette]

it is a muscular endurance exercise. just as doing 100 push ups is. there is limited strengthening if the muscle is untrained. after that period, you ate building endurance, not strength. such us the case with any high rep exercise our isometric exercise held for long periods of time.


Wouldn't the same hold true then for high reps of weight lifting as well?

[Robinhood]

Wouldn't the same hold true then for high reps of weight lifting as well?


Well from my view, the reason is lost in modern times, the whole idea of staying in a stance a long time, is to be able to stay there efficiently, what that means if you stay long enough you will learn to hold yourself there with intention and your muscles will be relaxed. Something along that line, to long for muscles , find other stuff to hold you there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Stance training serves a purpose.
How you do it and why will define that purpose.
I have limited time to train so I no longer bother with stance training ( in the hold the stance in a static way for a long period of time).
There are better ways to develop endurance, flexibility and "rooting".
That said, stance training does indeed help develop certain "intangibles" when you are starting off.
It develops a great structural awareness of whatever stance you are holding.

[YouKnowWho]

Stance training is not only to build leg strength but also to develop certain "flexibility". If you can

- Have your left foot to point NW.
- Have your right foot to point W.
- Have you right foot toes point up.
- Keep both legs bending.
- Use your left hand to touch your right foot ankle.

You will have the flexibility to apply certain grappling technique. Since we don't born with this kind of flexibility, we have to develop it through stance training.

[Frost]

Wouldn't the same hold true then for high reps of weight lifting as well?

yes and high reps arent good for strength building either but for endurance

[SevenStar]

Wouldn't the same hold true then for high reps of weight lifting as well?

yes. in terms of weight training, 2-5 reps for strength / power, 6-8 reps for mass / strength and 12 reps and up for muscle endurance.

[Frost]

there is a science to it, do not just think of it as leg strengthening, you have to pay attention to your body alignment and structure. if the frame of a house is not strong it has poor structure.
so a golfer never keeps practicing their swing? Pitchers stop pitching?
Why would you stop your stance training?
Basics, basics, basics.

and yet without outside pressure and feedback all the above: alignment structure falls apart ...or put another way the hardest hitters around ( boxers and thai stylists) dont do static or moving stance work and their structure is fine without it............

[SevenStar]

Well from my view, the reason is lost in modern times, the whole idea of staying in a stance a long time, is to be able to stay there efficiently, what that means if you stay long enough you will learn to hold yourself there with intention and your muscles will be relaxed. Something along that line, to long for muscles , find other stuff to hold you there.

this is one of those tcma-isms...punch without using your muscles, hold yourself there with intention, etc. how can you be using your muscles without actually using them?

[Kellen Bassette]

and yet without outside pressure and feedback all the above: alignment structure falls apart ...or put another way the hardest hitters around ( boxers and thai stylists) dont do static or moving stance work and their structure is fine without it............

Well sure, it's not necessary to learn to fight, but I would suggest a speed bag isn't necessary, (or the best method) for developing timing and hand/eye coordination, but it is a staple training method in boxing and most boxers like to use it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well sure, it's not necessary to learn to fight, but I would suggest a speed bag isn't necessary, (or the best method) for developing timing and hand/eye coordination, but it is a staple training method in boxing and most boxers like to use it.

Never used a speed bag myself, unless I was told to.
Even in sport combat systems many things are done for the sake of tradition.

[Kellen Bassette]

Like flipping the tire? I think people like this one so much because it's cool. :cool:

[YouKnowWho]

how can you be using your muscles without actually using them?

People may say that we should use bone and tendon instead. Can we control our body in such a way that we can distinguish "tendon" from "muscle"? May be others can but I know that I can't.

From my Google about "What's the difference between tendon and muscle", I got the following:

Muscles work to move bones the way the brain tells them to. Tendons connect muscles to the bone to make this happen.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_a_muscle_and_a_tend on

Muscles contract to facilitate movement. Tendons attach muscles to bones. Ligaments attach bones to other bones.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_muscles_and_tendons

[Pork Chop]

and yet without outside pressure and feedback all the above: alignment structure falls apart ...or put another way the hardest hitters around ( boxers and thai stylists) dont do static or moving stance work and their structure is fine without it............

Just to play devil's advocate here...
I've encountered static stance drills in boxing, muay thai, and wrestling...
-Ever done wall sits?
I've encountered moving stance drills in muay thai, boxing, and wrestling...
-Ever done bobbing & weaving under the rope in boxing? Is that not moving stance work?
-How about wrestling shots (change level & step in with a deep lunge)?
-In muay thai we often did stepping & hopping lunges as part of our warm up...

The difference I think is that boxing, wrestling, and muay thai use these as ancillary training drills and not the main training.

My personal opinion is that I think too much stance training can be bad for joints & explosiveness.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Never used a speed bag myself, unless I was told to.
Even in sport combat systems many things are done for the sake of tradition.

Recently I bought a Wrecking Ball/Body Snatcher for my gym. I used this quite a bit when training at another MMA gym and love the new addition. It is great for working hooks, uppercuts, pretty much any angle punch. It is also good for working crescents and roundhouse kicks.

A short clip of me working the wrecking ball a while back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4f-hcSJmOM

Sorry to get off topic, but to get back on I have never found much use in speed bags, although many others I have trained with do. Not every training method is for every person.

[SevenStar]

Well sure, it's not necessary to learn to fight, but I would suggest a speed bag isn't necessary, (or the best method) for developing timing and hand/eye coordination, but it is a staple training method in boxing and most boxers like to use it.

the speed bag is to teach you to keep your hands up and how to hit a moving target. no it isn't a necessity, and not all boxers use out. why? it doesn't transfer to ring skill, as you don't hit the speed bag the same way that you punch. a much better tool is t he double end bag.

[Kellen Bassette]

Recently I bought a Wrecking Ball/Body Snatcher for my gym. I used this quite a bit when training at another MMA gym and love the new addition. It is great for working hooks, uppercuts, pretty much any angle punch. It is also good for working crescents and roundhouse kicks.


I got one of them where I train as well. Like you say, not only good for hooks and uppercuts, but great for crescent kicks. Get yourself a heavy bag, thai bag and one of them babies and you got the hook up for working almost any strike!

[SevenStar]

Like flipping the tire? I think people like this one so much because it's cool. :cool:

this is actually great for sumo wrestling.

[Kellen Bassette]

the speed bag is to teach you to keep your hands up and how to hit a moving target. no it isn't a necessity, and not all boxers use out. why? it doesn't transfer to ring skill, as you don't hit the speed bag the same way that you punch. a much better tool is t he double end bag.

That's pretty much my point. It's not the best tool, but it's not bad for you either. It's a traditional training method that serves it's purpose, when other methods could also serve the same purpose.

Kind of like stance training to TCMA.

[SevenStar]

Like flipping the tire? I think people like this one so much because it's cool. :cool:

this is actually great for sumo wrestling. exercises like that force the body to work as a unit. however, it is VERY specific to sumo.

[Kellen Bassette]

this is actually great for sumo wrestling.

It's probably great for a lot of things. But you could probably replicate the exercise without requiring such a large space to work or store a huge tractor tire. But then some other methods may not be as cool/fun. :p

[SevenStar]

That's pretty much my point. It's not the best tool, but it's not bad for you either. It's a traditional training method that serves it's purpose, when other methods could also serve the same purpose.

Kind of like stance training to TCMA.

I never disagreed with that. like I said a few posts ago, it's a different means to a similar end. the difference is that you gotta call a spade a spade. but because of years of calling a spade a kwan dao, people think stance training is for building leg strength, and it's not.

[Kellen Bassette]

I never disagreed with that. like I said a few posts ago, it's a different means to a similar end. the difference is that you gotta call a spade a spade. but because of years of calling a spade a kwa. dao, people think stance training is for building leg strength, and it's not.

I got you, just adding my 2 cents for clarification and posterity. :p

Not being hip to the sport science, I actually just always assumed that stance training was for building leg strength, (amongst other purposes,) because it sure felt like it.

[SevenStar]

It's probably great for a lot of things. But you could probably replicate the exercise without requiring such a large space to work or store a huge tractor tire. But then some other methods may not be as cool/fun. :p


no, not great for sumo, specific to it. unintentionally it mimics the sumo starting stance, and pushing the tire over mimics the tsuppari push / slap.

trying the exercise with something other than a tire still requires something big and heavy.

[Kellen Bassette]

If I remember right I think you said you we're out of Nashville? Do they have a sumo school there or are you training on your own??? Just curious...

[SevenStar]

If I remember right I think you said you we're out of Nashville? Do they have a sumo school there or are you training on your own??? Just curious...

Memphis. yeah, we've got a group here. this school teaches Muay Thai, judo, bjj, sumo and submission wrestling.

[Kellen Bassette]

That's pretty cool...you certainly don't see much Sumo around, probably a pretty good fit with those other arts, when you think of it.

[SevenStar]

it's growing slowly. they've been having competitions in California for at least 15 years. this year there are also competitions in Memphis, Kansas and a few other cities. it fits with mma well. it's fast and hard, the grappling is basically judo with no gi and there is strength training and conditioning of striking surfaces as well.

[Robinhood]

this is one of those tcma-isms...punch without using your muscles, hold yourself there with intention, etc. how can you be using your muscles without actually using them?


I think it has something to do with those sheathing layers that hold everything in its place. Wear out the muscles , and then figure out what's left working.

[Lucas]

Stance training, such as the static versions, has a diminishing return effect. When you have a beginner, stance training has a serious impact. They learn proper stance, gain new endurance/strength, develop dedication to the new practice, and so on. This is for specific static training. At a certain point into your training, you don't (IMO) really need static stance training any longer. You're going to get enough static benefit from training in and of itself. IE: Drills, drills, drills, form.

This is strictly from a combat perspective. If you're talking health, longevity, old age, rehabilitation, internal meditation, qigong, etc. then static training has more specific approaches.

I firmly believe static stance training has its place and purpose when you begin Chinese martial arts.

[Robinhood]

nope, sorry; doesn't work like that at all - muscles don't get "worn out" to the degree that they stop working unless u r talking about muscle failure due to fatigue; fascia / non-contractile connective tissue does function out of tensegrrity principle which certainly goes a long way to explain why u can have the perception of "effortless" delivery, but the muscles are still involved;

if you are standing or doing anything while on two feet, muscles are working in some capacity; end of story; of course, how the muscles work, in terms of synergistic firing sequences, agonist / antagonist harmonization, coordination with respiration, CT and GRF, that can be a wide continuum, at one end of which is the various so-called 'internal" skills;

as far as fascia / CT "holding everything in place", it's one way of looking at it, but it's really not the full story - whole body continuity / transference of forces also another thing, but there is a lot of talk about CT being a conduit for "information" on a biochemical / cell signaling level - lots of interesting research going on regarding this system...

Thanks, I knew would chime in and give better technical out look on some of the physical aspects, ya fatigue would be a better description of muscles giving way.

I think the slow approach is easier than the fatigue method.

[IronFist]

I know many people who claim to be progressive are vehemently opposed to static stance training. There seems to be a consensus that it is a useless training method. I do have some questions and reservations, however.

Argument: Stance training does not build leg strength.

Question: When someone who has never done stance training attempts to hold a stance, they typically cannot do it for 30 seconds. After a while of training they can do it for 1 minute, then 2, then 5. How is this phenomenon possible if there wasn't some strengthening of certain muscles?

They are gaining endurance, not strength.

Their raw strength does not increase (past the first minute or two of training).

In other words, the maximum amount of tension their muscles can generate does not increase.


Argument: Stance training builds muscles, but only those necessary to hold that particular stance; in that specific shape. Stance training can only help you hold that particular stance longer, nothing more.

Question: I find it hard to believe that these muscles only serve one specific function, i.e. holding Ma Bu. They don't have any other uses? Whenever you do any kind of new exercise, you will have sore muscles you don't normally notice. If I run and lift weights and do aerobics everyday, then one day decide to swim 100 laps, I'm going to feel a whole new world of sore muscles. It seems to me strengthening these different groups must benefit your overall strength. Is this incorrect?

Muscle soreness is not indicative of a productive workout, only of muscles doing something they're not used to doing. It doesn't mean it was an intelligent use of those muscles.


Argument: After 2 minutes of holding a static stance there is no additional benefit.

Question: So is it beneficial to hold the stance for 2 minutes as opposed to 15?

After 2 minutes you no longer gain strength, and those strength gains in the first 2 minutes really only apply to untrained athletes. A weight lifter who increases from a 30 second stance to a 2 minute stance probably won't have gained any strength.

Obviously after 2 minutes you're still gaining muscular endurance as evidenced by the fact that you are increasing the amount of time you can hold a stance.


Argument: Stance training has no direct benefit to a fighter.

Question: Putting aside mental toughness and rooting, some stances make for good stretches. Gung Bu and Pu Bu, for instance. These same stances are often trained as stretches outside the martial arts world. Some other stances are great for balance, I would consider the cat stance and the various versions of one footed stances to be helpful in maintaining balance and developing sensitivity in the ankle, to help regain compromised balance. I feel like this skill is very beneficial to a fighter. Is there no benefit to the stretching and balancing practice either?

How is stance training a stretch? It works the muscles in a position that is nowhere near the limit of flexibility for most people.

Disclaimer: I didn't read any other posts in this thread. Maybe this has already been said.

But hey, if you enjoy stance training, then go for it. It definitely benefits traditional martial arts practice which does a lot of stance holding. And it's better than not doing any leg exercises.

[SevenStar]

How is stance training a stretch? It works the muscles in a position that is nowhere near the limit of flexibility for most people.

gung by is used as a stretch. ma bu can be as well if the hips are tight. shuai chiao has some static stances that stretch the hamstrings


Disclaimer: I didn't read any other posts in this thread.

same old ironfist!

[Lucas]

you can total turn SevenStar into a stretch too. badumcha!

[Lucas]

Oh and don't forget this stance!

http://sportcorner.com.mk/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/hot-girls-stretching-2.jpg

[GeneChing]

That was my fav line from Forbidden Kingdom (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42599).

That being said, I use Horse Stance applications every day. I take a dump every day. Sometimes more.

It even works in the street.

:D

[Kellen Bassette]

Muscle soreness is not indicative of a productive workout, only of muscles doing something they're not used to doing. It doesn't mean it was an intelligent use of those muscles.


It may not be indicative of an intelligent use of your training time, but certainly you must know whenever you do a new style workout, that you have never done before, you have soreness in muscles you normally don't. I don't think it's a stretch to say that what happened was you worked out muscles you normally don't.



How is stance training a stretch? It works the muscles in a position that is nowhere near the limit of flexibility for most people.


As I mentioned, Gung Bu and Pu Bu are used as stretches. In martial arts as stances; but also in various aerobic workouts and sports. They aren't intentionally working a stance, but they are certainly doing the same thing. Horse stance isn't the only stance.



But hey, if you enjoy stance training, then go for it. It definitely benefits traditional martial arts practice which does a lot of stance holding. And it's better than not doing any leg exercises.

I'm just trying to find a balance between using stance work in a beneficial way and not taking it to the point of diminishing returns. I kind of agree with Lucas that it's much more beneficial to a beginner than to someone who has been around a while. But I also feel working stances does help your rooting, adjusting to different situations, defending take downs, (not by holding the stance, but by the ability to transition smoothly), ect.

I do appreciate your input though.

[IronFist]

Your body gets better at what you do and worse at what you don't do.

If you do stance training your body gets better at holding muscle contractions for time in specific angles.

If you lift weights that gradually get heavier over time* (periodization), your muscles eventually becomes capable of generating more tension and lifting more weight (you get stronger).

Your body does not become capable of generating more tension if you do stance training because there is no increase of resistance and therefore nothing for your body to adapt to (beyond the first 2 minutes or so for an untrained individual).

If you lift weights that gradually get heavier over time, your body does not get better at holding muscle contractions for time in specific angles because you are not holding muscle contractions for time in specific angles.

Stronger muscles are useful for things like kicking harder, grappling with an opponent (yes, I know using too much strength is bad, but sometimes you have to brute force it), and picking up heavy boxes.

Being able to hold a contraction at a specific angle for a period of time is useful for things like holding stances and doing TCMA training and forms.

Your training should be based on your goals. If you do a lot of TMA type stuff then stance training should be part of your training program. Just don't be under the mistaken assumption that it's developing things that it's not, like maximal strength.

*I greatly over simplified this concept, and I mean with a proper strength training program

[IronFist]

It may not be indicative of an intelligent use of your training time, but certainly you must know whenever you do a new style workout, that you have never done before, you have soreness in muscles you normally don't. I don't think it's a stretch to say that what happened was you worked out muscles you normally don't.

Yes, it means you worked out your muscles in a new way.

But not that it was a good way.

People get caught up in changing their workouts every few weeks to "keep their muscles guessing" and they use the increase in soreness as an indicator of that.

You can do a stupid workout that doesn't help you at all and still be sore the next day Take a powerlifter who can bench 350 pounds and have him do sets of flat dumbbell presses to failure with 15 pound dumbbells. He'll probably knock out dozens and dozens of reps and be super sore the next day, but was that helpful to him? No.


As I mentioned, Gung Bu and Pu Bu are used as stretches. In martial arts as stances; but also in various aerobic workouts and sports. They aren't intentionally working a stance, but they are certainly doing the same thing. Horse stance isn't the only stance.

Fair enough.


I'm just trying to find a balance between using stance work in a beneficial way and not taking it to the point of diminishing returns. I kind of agree with Lucas that it's much more beneficial to a beginner than to someone who has been around a while. But I also feel working stances does help your rooting, adjusting to different situations, defending take downs, (not by holding the stance, but by the ability to transition smoothly), ect.

I do appreciate your input though.

It's good that you're questioning things.

Stance training is useful to the point that it benefits your MA training, or to the point that you enjoy it.

In other words, if you need to hold a horse stance for 5 minutes for your training, then train to be able to do so. Doing only barbell squats will not get you to that point. But in this situation is there a reason for you to train to the point of holding it for 30 minutes? Not really, unless you want to.

If you want to be stronger, train some sort of resistance exercise where the weight generally increases over time. Stance training will not get you to that point. But in this situation is there a reason for you to train to the point of squatting 500 pounds? Not necessarily, unless you want to be super strong.

And then there's endurance (as in like, not getting tired in a fight), and that's another subject entirely.

[IronFist]

shuai chiao has some static stances that stretch the hamstrings

Can you post some of them?

I'm not questioning you; I want to do them!

[SevenStar]

Can you post some of them?

I'm not questioning you; I want to do them!


stand with your feet together. bend forward as of trying to touch your toes. that standing pole stretch is used, as it's the ending position of their shoulder throw.

[Frost]

Like flipping the tire? I think people like this one so much because it's cool. :cool:

For wrestling and grappling flipping a tire is a very good idea, gets your strength in low ranges of motion and you can vary the resistance as you get stronger, for a striking art its not a good idea, but hitting said tire with a sledgehammer is a good idea

[Frost]

Just to play devil's advocate here...
I've encountered static stance drills in boxing, muay thai, and wrestling...
-Ever done wall sits?
I've encountered moving stance drills in muay thai, boxing, and wrestling...
-Ever done bobbing & weaving under the rope in boxing? Is that not moving stance work?
-How about wrestling shots (change level & step in with a deep lunge)?
-In muay thai we often did stepping & hopping lunges as part of our warm up...

The difference I think is that boxing, wrestling, and muay thai use these as ancillary training drills and not the main training.

My personal opinion is that I think too much stance training can be bad for joints & explosiveness.

Part as a warm up is fine, bobbing and weaving is sports specific in that you do it exactly as you would in a fight, the stance isn’t held for time or moved slowly through its dynamic as you said, as is training the wrestling shot which is also sports specific

And wall sits are done for mental strength not really strength building correct?
The difference is as you say they use it for ancillary training, its sports specific and not the main focus

[Kellen Bassette]

for a striking art its not a good idea, but hitting said tire with a sledgehammer is a good idea

Is this because your developing your shoulders with the swing, or because of the muscles you use in your forearms to stabilize the sledge after impact?

[MightyB]

The range where strength is developed is probably the key to stance training. It's not about over all strength development like doing squats - it's about developing the ability to hold that low stance comfortably for long periods of time. This skill is particularly useful for the throwing arts where it's better for you to be in that low posture to both get under your opponent's center of gravity and to keep them from getting below yours. The main benefit of this type of stance training is that as you gain the ability to hold these postures, you'll find that you exert less strength to do them, this allows you to "free up your hips" and relax - again this is very important to the throwing arts, but it's also useful for the striking arts. My teacher amazes everyone he meets with his ability to apply mantis. When showing the applications and trying to teach us to do what he does, he always says to relax the hips - something that students never really can do thus they can't achieve his results with the technique. I observed that this ability actually comes from his ability to maintain low postures comfortably - ie leg strength from stance training - something that westerners just don't want to do.

[Frost]

Is this because your developing your shoulders with the swing, or because of the muscles you use in your forearms to stabilize the sledge after impact?

Rotational force is being developed as well as core strength AND force absorption and stabilization in the arms , mind you medicine ball rebounds mind be better to develop rotation force, but both are very good things for strikers to use if you havent got someone to actually hit :)

[wenshu]

The difference I think is that boxing, wrestling, and muay thai use these as ancillary training drills and not the main training.


The difference is as you say they use it for ancillary training, its sports specific and not the main focus

I didn't realize horse stance was the main focus in gong fu either.


shuai chiao has some static stances that stretch the hamstrings


Beijing style has a gong bu stance that is trained statically. gong bu chuang yao/chang yao something like that. Any case, it has little to do with the hamstrings. I'll post a picture later when I have some time.

[Frost]

The range where strength is developed is probably the key to stance training. It's not about over all strength development like doing squats - it's about developing the ability to hold that low stance comfortably for long periods of time. This skill is particularly useful for the throwing arts where it's better for you to be in that low posture to both get under your opponent's center of gravity and to keep them from getting below yours. The main benefit of this type of stance training is that as you gain the ability to hold these postures, you'll find that you exert less strength to do them, this allows you to "free up your hips" and relax - again this is very important to the throwing arts, but it's also useful for the striking arts. My teacher amazes everyone he meets with his ability to apply mantis. When showing the applications and trying to teach us to do what he does, he always says to relax the hips - something that students never really can do thus they can't achieve his results with the technique. I observed that this ability actually comes from his ability to maintain low postures comfortably - ie leg strength from stance training - something that westerners just don't want to do.

and yet wrestlers seem to be able to throw people just fine, not to metion get under their hips

[MightyB]

and yet wrestlers seem to be able to throw people just fine, not to metion get under their hips

they use different techniques like the shoot to double or single leg, or low single leg which it is better to hit the gym and do squats or Olympic lifting to train for - plus duck walk.

If you're playing tai chi wrestling, you're going to need to be able to hold low stances and move in them comfortably.

[MightyB]

they use different techniques like the shoot to double or single leg, or low single leg which it is better to hit the gym and do squats or Olympic lifting to train for - plus duck walk.

If you're playing tai chi wrestling, you're going to need to be able to hold low stances and move in them comfortably.

Watch some of the Chen Bing stuff online where he's wrestling.

[wenshu]

The main benefit of this type of stance training is that as you gain the ability to hold these postures, you'll find that you exert less strength to do them, this allows you to "free up your hips" and relax - again this is very important to the throwing arts, but it's also useful for the striking arts.

Up thread it was argued (as it is on every other thread that this trope gets repeatedly beaten to death on) that stance training wasn't a good means of increasing flexibility. A bit of a half truth.

When I was working towards the side splits the best way I found to warm up was holding horse stance for a minute or a little more. In and of itself horse stance does little to greatly increase range of motion in the hips but there was nothing I found that made the stretching itself easier.

[Frost]

they use different techniques like the shoot to double or single leg, or low single leg which it is better to hit the gym and do squats or Olympic lifting to train for - plus duck walk.

If you're playing tai chi wrestling, you're going to need to be able to hold low stances and move in them comfortably.

they also hit head and arm throws, body lock throws etc all which need your hips lower than your opponents to work

[David Jamieson]

That was my fav line from Forbidden Kingdom (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42599).

That being said, I use Horse Stance applications every day. I take a dump every day. Sometimes more.

It even works in the street.

:D

I would find it very difficult to take a dump in a horse stance. There's a lot of dynamic tension going on that would make it difficult to evacuate the bowels in a relaxed manner.

[Kellen Bassette]

When I was working towards the side splits the best way I found to warm up was holding horse stance for a minute or a little more.

I mentioned some other stances that are used for stretches, but actually the horse stance is a common stretch in itself. Instead of staying static, you put your elbows inside your knees and push the knees out, while shifting the weight some, from leg to leg, while getting a bit of hip rotation.

[MightyB]

Up thread it was argued (as it is on every other thread that this trope gets repeatedly beaten to death on) that stance training wasn't a good means of increasing flexibility. A bit of a half truth.

When I was working towards the side splits the best way I found to warm up was holding horse stance for a minute or a little more. In and of itself horse stance does little to greatly increase range of motion in the hips but there was nothing I found that made the stretching itself easier.

It's not about stretching, it's about your level of comfort to maintain a low stance. It's a pretty simple concept, stand low for long periods of time and it gets easier to stand low. Moving comfortably while standing low is something that TCMA does, if you don't like doing it, that's on you.

[18elders]

Frost- so if stance training has no use, then why the **** would anyone do yoga?
post some pics of you doing all your stances, bet your structure is not perfect.

there is much more to it than holding a stance for 5 minutes, you continually do them for proper structure and alignment, transitions, breathing, mental.

[Frost]

Frost- so if stance training has no use, then why the **** would anyone do yoga?
post some pics of you doing all your stances, bet your structure is not perfect.

there is much more to it than holding a stance for 5 minutes, you continually do them for proper structure and alignment, transitions, breathing, mental.

Where did i say they were useless, please quote :)

I said it depends on what you use them for, but structure for a fighting art cant be built in a vacum and you need outside pressure not static work for that

[sanjuro_ronin]

why would people do yoga?
Well...

http://4chandata.org/images/threads/145809_Sara-Jean-Underwood-Sexy-Yoga-6.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxdtk1981A1qayczvo1_500.jpg

http://www.menstelevision.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/sexy_yoga.jpg

[MightyB]

One thing I'll say though is that stance training seems to be pretty specific to a certain type of TCMA game and that's really pushing hands. It's a fun game that requires you to hold low stances. If that's your thing, or if low stances are required to facilitate the applications of your style, then you have to do stance training. Otherwise you probably don't have to do it unless you like doing it.

[IronFist]

stand with your feet together. bend forward as of trying to touch your toes. that standing pole stretch is used, as it's the ending position of their shoulder throw.

That's not a stance; it's a standing toe touch :confused:

[IronFist]

The range where strength is developed is probably the key to stance training. It's not about over all strength development like doing squats - it's about developing the ability to hold that low stance comfortably for long periods of time. This skill is particularly useful for the throwing arts where it's better for you to be in that low posture to both get under your opponent's center of gravity and to keep them from getting below yours.

While I will admit that stance training in a low stance will give you more stability and endurance to hold a low stance, how is that going to help you develop the strength to throw an opponent? During horse stance you're still only supporting your own weight. If you're going to need to apply extra strength from a low position wouldn't it be better if you could do barbell squats with your bodyweight or more?

The more strength you can generate, the smaller percentage of effort it takes to move a finite weight. In other words, if I can squat 150 pounds, squatting 150 pounds will be hard. If I can squat 300 pounds, squatting 150 pounds will be easy.

How is holding a low stance for long periods of time going to make it easier to throw someone? Are you spending a lot of time in that low stance when you're sparring?

If you're only dropping your stance down for a moment to throw someone, I fail to see how stance training and the increased muscular endurance that comes from stance training would be more beneficial than a strength development exercise.

If you're spending a lot of time in a low stance, then yes, I see how stances training would be more effective.

[MightyB]

While I will admit that stance training in a low stance will give you more stability and endurance to hold a low stance, how is that going to help you develop the strength to throw an opponent? ...

How is holding a low stance for long periods of time going to make it easier to throw someone? Are you spending a lot of time in that low stance when you're sparring?


It's sport specific:
http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/590/draft_lens6394031module51391881photo_1250085781Pus hing_Hands.JPG

If it's not part of your sport, don't do it. It's just one aspect, and that being get lower than the other guy's center of gravity.

[SevenStar]

I didn't realize horse stance was the main focus in gong fu either.

no, but there is set time dedicated to stance training. The arts he mentioned don't do that. The stances are not named and are only worked in drills.



Beijing style has a gong bu stance that is trained statically. gong bu chuang yao/chang yao something like that. Any case, it has little to do with the hamstrings. I'll post a picture later when I have some time.

Yeah, I've seen that one. the one i'm taking about coincides with the finishing position of a shoulder throw.

[SevenStar]

Frost- so if stance training has no use, then why the **** would anyone do yoga?

Nobody said useless. However bringing yoga into it is irrelevant, a yoga isn't a necessity for fighting either..



post some pics of you doing all your stances, bet your structure is not perfect.

there is much more to it than holding a stance for 5 minutes, you continually do them for proper structure and alignment, transitions, breathing, mental.

That's just it...out doesn't matter whether or not stance structure is perfect from a fighting point of view. perfect structure or not, a judoka can easily throw a person. Watch clips of judo in actin and you won't see one perfect stance. Watch an mma match, Thai boxing match, etc and you won't see perfect stance. You will see transitions in and out of familiar looking stances, but none week be anywhere near perfect.

That's not to say stance training doesn't have benefit, but like I said before, youhave to call out what it is. Stance training is not for strengthening the muscles and is not necessary for fighting effectively. Before anyone responds to that, i'm not saying stance training has nothing to do with fighting skill. But it's not necessary.

[MightyB]

a few things about stance training:

1) isometirc training trains a muscle to be strong statically at the point of holding, and about 20˚ in either direction; it doesn't do anything for dynamic synergistic function, explosive power, tendon elastic recoil capacity, eccentric strength, or anything that is involved in fighting; it will make u very good at standing statically in a given stance, and that's it; so it's basically useless for fighting, and if not useless, at the bottom of the list in terms of what u could train;

2) stance training can be very good for "health": for example, statically / isometirc holding of anti-gravity extensor musculature (glutes, quads) has an inhibitory effect on muscles that often contribute to things like low back pain and sciatic, including posas and piriformis (this is why yoga can be good for your chronic low back pain due to faciitated flexors); but again, this has little direct bearing on fighting skill per se;

3) kung fu came from indian martial arts; there is a lot of crossover between yoga and Indian martial arts; stance training is basically a carry-over from this; the problem is that, the emphasis is all wrong, because it doesn't teach the details / specifics of asana work (seriously, even basic yoga postures are quite complex in terms of the various anchor points, tensions, etc.); it's basically 'yoga-lite';

4) from a motor learning theory perspective, stance training makes no sense in terms of fighting skill, because the task parametrics are about as diametrically opposed to those of fighting as u can get;

5) there is a rich history in TCMA of basically teaching BS to "outsiders"; so frankly when the first thing that everyone learns is stance training, and if we apply some COMMON SENSE to it as I have above, it doesn't take a ot to put two and two together and consider that perhaps stance training was a means more of a smoke screen to weed out newbies, especially those from other schools who may have been there to steal ur stuff...

or it's to train one aspect of TCMA for a very specific given task - push hands. Don't make me pull out the official I'm always Right card.

[sanjuro_ronin]

and then there are these reasons:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8f3uhWEWk1rw2a8zo1_500.jpg

http://www.bodyrock.tv/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/SuperGirl.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQx4hEKA4_86NaGLbIcz8BAdW_wDsI-SLK04y7QL1rEq7xR_sWUDg

[Pork Chop]

Part as a warm up is fine, bobbing and weaving is sports specific in that you do it exactly as you would in a fight, the stance isn’t held for time or moved slowly through its dynamic as you said, as is training the wrestling shot which is also sports specific

And wall sits are done for mental strength not really strength building correct?
The difference is as you say they use it for ancillary training, its sports specific and not the main focus

I think wall sits are a little bit of both...
I know someone on this thread was commenting on stance work as a stretch, and I do think it is true to an extent. Wall sits help a wrestler feel comfortable getting their hips low; which is needed in their sport.

As far as your first point, all this stuff should be sports specific and not just doing it for the sake of doing it. Needless to say, I've never really agreed with the "train low, fight high" crowd, because you fight how you train. In other words, it's my opinion they should only be using the deep stance for the applications that require it, or admit that their style fights that way.

It's not totally unrealistic to fight in a horse, especially if it's side-on. There were a few American rules kickboxers back in the day that even held their own against the Thais using that stance. Need to have a really good sidekick for it though and a back kick really helps.

In grappling arts there are some benefits in being able to sink your root/hips, aside from wrestling mentioned above, it also helps in Judo- a Judo friend was just telling me last night in fact how horse training had helped his sinking ability in Judo.


I didn't realize horse stance was the main focus in gong fu either. Depends on the style. I've trained with hung gar instructors that taught nothing BUT static horse stance & stance transition drills for months. Just leave you alone with a stick of incense burning. Of course those guys train to fight low, so to them it could be said that it's a type of style-specific training (regardless of what people say about "train low, fight high").

[SevenStar]

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/c21.0.403.403/p403x403/428150_394708463957465_923612302_n.jpg

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/photo/d_balance.jpg

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/c10.0.403.403/p403x403/419737_399607970134181_1585418385_n.png

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/c0.0.394.394/p403x403/398035_396469600448018_578132266_n.jpg


The third one is a shoulder throw the stance /stretch to train the finishing position is what I was describing.

[SevenStar]

and stance trianing is yoga without the essential details to make it work; if u don't believe me, look at the level of detail most people get for training bow& arrow stance, and then look at the level of detail Iyengar gets into for warrior pose...

I know. Since I work in gyms I don't get charged for yoga classes, so I'll drop in sometimes. Very, very technical.

[SevenStar]

and then there are these reasons:

This chick is not doing yoga.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8f3uhWEWk1rw2a8zo1_500.jpg




This chick is doing shuai chiao!
http://www.bodyrock.tv/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/SuperGirl.jpg






Hmmm.... Looks like tiger stance or maybe snake creeps down. Wushu chick!

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQx4hEKA4_86NaGLbIcz8BAdW_wDsI-SLK04y7QL1rEq7xR_sWUDg

[wenshu]

It's not about stretching, it's about your level of comfort to maintain a low stance. It's a pretty simple concept, stand low for long periods of time and it gets easier to stand low. Moving comfortably while standing low is something that TCMA does, if you don't like doing it, that's on you.

Part of that comfort level is dependent on flexibility, no?

I wasn't making an argument about the global scope of what stance training is or isn't for or effective at, I was sharing the benefits of specific personal experience with it.


Mildly oxidized Oolong tea should be brewed for no more than 20 seconds with spring water at a temperature of no more than 190 degrees. If you want acidic tea with an overpowering bitter aftertaste that's on you.

[wenshu]

3) kung fu came from indian martial arts; there is a lot of crossover between yoga and Indian martial arts; stance training is basically a carry-over from this; the problem is that, the emphasis is all wrong, because it doesn't teach the details / specifics of asana work (seriously, even basic yoga postures are quite complex in terms of the various anchor points, tensions, etc.); it's basically 'yoga-lite';

Problems with this one. No real evidence for an Indian origin to Chinese martial arts and Asana is a mostly modern invention.



The yoga we practice these days, although dressed in the trappings of ancient Hindu authenticity, was born about one hundred years ago, largely under the influence of western culture. While the yoga world routinely refers to yoga as a five thousand year old tradition, it is only a little older than Bollywood.

The REAL yoga, ancient and obscure, was nothing like the feel-good hippie stretching of today. It was more like black magic: transforming one's semen into magical nectar, flying around and taking over other peoples bodies, and the like. Yogis were like boogeymen and dark sorcerers. This according to David White, the leading American scholar in ancient yoga, who noted, "I haven't seen them teaching this stuff at the local yoga studio."


In a rare interview, BKS Iyengar, the 90-year old ambassador of yoga to the West, told me that his yoga, as taught to him by his master, was a purely physical exercise and completely unrelated to ancient philosophy. He says he invented and refined much of it himself. It wasn't until 1960, while on a visit to London, that English intellectuals introduced Iyengar to the ancient "yoga sutras". Five years later, he combined the yoga poses and the Hindu teachings together in his book "Light on Yoga," which then sold hundreds of thousands of copies in the United States. And voila -- the modern yoga craze was born. But it was basically a new age invention, not an ancient practice.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nicholas-rosen/going-to-the-mat-confessi_b_186332.html

http://www.yogajournal.com/practice/2691?page=2


Kind of like TaijiXingYiBagua.

I find a lot of parallels between Iyengar and Sun Lu Tang; marketing to the idle rich (white people!) with new age metaphysical sensibilities and eastern mystical fetishism.

[David Jamieson]

Problems with this one. No real evidence for an Indian origin to Chinese martial arts and Asana is a mostly modern invention.

Not directly, but definitely correlation is evident.

IE: Daoyin/Dhayana>Ch'an>Zen and associated practices.

Also, Buddhism is Indian, not Chinese.

China and it's esoteric religious martial arts of buddhist origin are definitely connected to India.

There is a lot that maps across conceptually, in shape etc. I think someone actually needs to do the real investigation and study. But I don't know if the Indians or the Chinese may like the outcome due to nationalistic rivalries. :p

As for the nature of Yoga, you are half correct. Asana or postures of today are indeed fairly recent, but the idea of postures in Yoga can be found in writings from the 13th century.

[wenshu]

Not directly, but definitely correlation is evident.

Another entry for the book of Jamiesonisms that I am compiling.

What is a Jamiesonism? I'm glad you asked! It's kind of like a non-sequitor without the humor.

While technically grammatical from a syntactic stand point, a Jamiesonism has no real meaning and is basically just a collection of random words strung together most often in the context of an argument. The idea is to try to sound intellectual without the nuisance of actually delivering a substantive retort.


IE: Daoyin/Dhayana>Ch'an>Zen and associated practices.

Also, Buddhism is Indian, not Chinese.

China and it's esoteric religious martial arts of buddhist origin are definitely connected to India.

There is a lot that maps across conceptually, in shape etc. I think someone actually needs to do the real investigation and study. But I don't know if the Indians or the Chinese may like the outcome due to nationalistic rivalries. :p

No.

Here's the thing, without evidence it's not exactly evident is it?

[JSE]

As part of one of my rank progression tests, we had to hold a horse stance for x min. I asked my sifu how that amount of time was determined. Was this just an arbitrary number, or was there a reason behind it. He stated "thats how long you will be holding the stance while performing the form"

This told me that the stance training was intended specifically to be able to perform the material.

This being related to strength training. I do agree with advantages in rooting, structure etc...

[IronFist]

It's sport specific:
http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/590/draft_lens6394031module51391881photo_1250085781Pus hing_Hands.JPG

If it's not part of your sport, don't do it. It's just one aspect, and that being get lower than the other guy's center of gravity.

If what you're doing looks like that, then stance training may help you.

I'm sure you could knock him over more easily if you could squat 2x his bodyweight, though ;)

[MightyB]

If what you're doing looks like that, then stance training may help you.

I'm sure you could knock him over more easily if you could squat 2x his bodyweight, though ;)

probably, but it's not my style. :p

[Kellen Bassette]

Problems with this one. No real evidence for an Indian origin to Chinese martial arts

Chinese Martial Arts (Kung Fu) was certainly around before the Indian religious influences.

[Oso]

5) there is a rich history in TCMA of basically teaching BS to "outsiders"; so frankly when the first thing that everyone learns is stance training, and if we apply some COMMON SENSE to it as I have above, it doesn't take a ot to put two and two together and consider that perhaps stance training was a means more of a smoke screen to weed out newbies, especially those from other schools who may have been there to steal ur stuff...

the funniest thing about this is how few people want to believe it to be true...

[SevenStar]

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. The second greatest trick was convincing us to fall for the smoke and mirrors in traditional styles...

[B.Tunks]

Zhan zhuang develops structural integrity, mental/intestinal fortitude, physical endurance, balance, flexibility, mind and breath control (god forbid anyone mentioning qi cultivation on a kungfu forum!) You can practice kungfu without stance training if you like but it is one of the foundations. Besides, it’s helps your nuts grow and weeds out whining shortcut taking pussies.

[B.Tunks]

A great tool, particularly at the elementary level.

[MightyB]

Besides, it’s helps your nuts grow and weeds out whining shortcut taking pussies.

Quoted for Truth.

[Frost]

It's sport specific:
http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/590/draft_lens6394031module51391881photo_1250085781Pus hing_Hands.JPG

If it's not part of your sport, don't do it. It's just one aspect, and that being get lower than the other guy's center of gravity.

its not sports specific unless you are doing it under conditions that stimulate said sport which int this case would mean doing it with external resistance to test your structure and also moving and not holding it statically for periods of time

[MightyB]

The chen guys develop a base with low static postures and then learn the form. Ever see how low those guys get?

[Frost]

The chen guys develop a base with low static postures and then learn the form. Ever see how low those guys get?

ever see how low a russian wrestler can get when he goes for an ankle pick? or a head and arm throw? Or when countering his oponent?

[MightyB]

ever see how low a russian wrestler can get when he goes for an ankle pick? or a head and arm throw? Or when countering his oponent?

It doesn't matter - if your form of martial larping is Chen or tai chi and push hands is your game, you should do stance training. If your larping style is Sambo or wrestling, then you'll probably wall sit, and not do stance training.

[GoldenBrain]

Horse stance seems pretty relevant to me. If you don't put in the stance work then your endurance suffers. Granted, power/strength training is also extremely relevant but I feel both should be worked on. Below is a bjj video dealing with the bear hug. Notice the horse stance. If you're locked up with a game opponent and you have no endurance then your legs will turn to jello pretty fast.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=GombZMP87wM&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DGombZMP87wM

[Frost]

It doesn't matter - if your form of martial larping is Chen or tai chi and push hands is your game, you should do stance training. If your larping style is Sambo or wrestling, then you'll probably wall sit, and not do stance training.

so stance work is only really good if you do chen ai chi then??

[Frost]

Horse stance seems pretty relevant to me. If you don't put in the stance work then your endurance suffers. Granted, power/strength training is also extremely relevant but I feel both should be worked on. Below is a bjj video dealing with the bear hug. Notice the horse stance. If you're locked up with a game opponent and you have no endurance then your legs will turn to jello pretty fast.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=GombZMP87wM&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DGombZMP87wM

it builds endurance in a stance position only, where as other training will build it in both static and dynamic ways (say repeatly defending the bearhug for example) and also allow you to practise a specific skills...which is the better use of time

[MightyB]

so stance work is only really good if you do chen ai chi then??

It's probably good in a lot of cases but no matter what someone brings up, you'll have your preconceived notions as to why it's not good - so at this point it's pointless to bring up anything more.

IMO it's especially relevant to Tai Chi, Chen in particular. Not so relevant in other styles unless they favor low stances in their applications.

[Frost]

It's probably good in a lot of cases but no matter what someone brings up, you'll have your preconceived notions as to why it's not good - so at this point it's pointless to bring up anything more.

IMO it's especially relevant to Tai Chi, Chen in particular. Not so relevant in other styles unless they favor low stances in their applications.

See my hung gar uses very low stances and developes it through forms and application drills more so that static stances

[MightyB]

See my hung gar uses very low stances and developes it through forms and application drills more so that static stances

That could be the case, or maybe you're shortchanging your martial experience. You'd have to ask your Sifu what he thinks. Most of the static standing stuff is at the very beginning phase in most MAs that use that type of training. They often transition to some type of low stance moving drills.

But as B Trunks said, static stance training is good for weeding out the less dedicated and that's probably more of the true application than what the old masters let us believe.

[MightyB]

stance training, if you have good endurance with it, can be used in a devious way - probably much like how all the mystic around it got started in the first place.

Get yourself to the point where you can hang with the grapplers in the local MMA gyms. After you gain their respect, show some of the more practical kung fu techniques that they can grasp. Then, if they show interest in kung fu and ask you to train some more technique, say "ok - do this" and drop into a low horse. Don't offer any more explanation, just hold it with them. Make sure you've practiced this, but as they get all jello-legged and give up, say they're not ready for kung fu yet and walk off all mysteriously. It works better if you have a fu manchu that you can stroke.

[Kellen Bassette]

stance training, if you have good endurance with it, can be used in a devious way - probably much like how all the mystic around it got started in the first place.

Get yourself to the point where you can hang with the grapplers in the local MMA gyms. After you gain their respect, show some of the more practical kung fu techniques that they can grasp. Then, if they show interest in kung fu and ask you to train some more technique, say "ok - do this" and drop into a low horse. Don't offer any more explanation, just hold it with them. Make sure you've practiced this, but as they get all jello-legged and give up, say they're not ready for kung fu yet and walk off all mysteriously. It works better if you have a fu manchu that you can stroke.

Note to self...cancel demos, have new method for recruiting prospective students...
P.S. Grow Fu Manchu....

[18elders]

i think everyone is stressing on the leg strength or endurance of training stances.
the mental is just as important if not more important, you have to fight through the pain, you are training your mind as well as the body.
you also have to think of the martial aspect of your stance, what is it used for? why is this stance used?, how do i execute this? there is reasons for the stances, not just to pass time and provide pain in your legs.
my teacher always stresses we need to ask why are we doing this, what is it used for?

why do navy seals have to hold a boat above their head for long periods of time, or soldiers march for long periods of time. they are trying to develop their mind to overcome the pain and become strong.

[Pork Chop]

See my hung gar uses very low stances and developes it through forms and application drills more so that static stances

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking about it...
The static stance is the way to clear up your form for the dynamic/moving stance...
It's corrective in nature and not the end goal...
Holding it for a long time is not just to build up endurance, but to help you find the best structural fit in order to stay down there without much effort - if your hips need to stretch more to get the mechanics right then they'll stretch...
I just think that too much static practice can be harmful over a long period of time, after you've already got perfect structure.

Going back to what I was saying before about practice how you fight:
Why would Hung Gar want to sit low when a muay thai guy wants to kick out his legs?
Well eventhough I said I don't agree with "fight high, train low"; there's a time and place for everything.

When you're still at the outside range - stay mobile (which would probably be higher).
Even if it's a situation where your legs are getting kicked out - weight on a straight leg that's getting kicked is BAD, weight on a bent leg getting kicked is not as bad - it can even help you absorb & catch the leg kick (see Cung Le's video).
When punching, sitting on your punches is a big thing in boxing, so knowing how to sink into your stance at the moment of contact is a good thing.
There's something to be said for being able to sink, even when striking at range.

Also when you've closed distance & engaged, then sinking can be a good idea.
This is especially true if you're worried about throws, it's not bad to get your hips low on the inside.
Chinese prioritized still being mobile while being engaged, hence all the dynamic stance drills - if you could apply that to wrestling, that would be akin to being able to drop level and shoot shot after shot tirelessly: shoot, get stuffed, step through and shoot, get stuffed, step through & shoot, get stuffed.... till you get it.
If you're about to get thrown sinking your weight's a real good thing - be it making yourself heavy in a sprawl (though not sitting in a horse), or sinking when you're about to be hip thrown.

Now you may be asking: "yeah but why do Thais keep their hips forward & raise on their toes in the clinch?"
Don't forget that their ruleset specifically outlaws wrestling shoots & forward body locks (talking about forward bear hugs where you drive your head into their chest while clinched around their lower back).
The muay thai clinch can be particularly vulnerable to both techniques (speaking from experience).

It's a time and place thing.
I think *some* kung fu schools *can* get a little detached from proper context and get a little obsessive over stance training; but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Kellen Bassette]

Now you may be asking: "yeah but why do Thais keep their hips forward & raise on their toes in the clinch?"
Don't forget that their ruleset specifically outlaws wrestling shoots & forward body locks (talking about forward bear hugs where you drive your head into their chest while clinched around their lower back).
The muay thai clinch can be particularly vulnerable to both techniques (speaking from experience).


:confused: I was taught using the bear hug, as you described, in traditional Muay Thai, in Thailand. It was part of our clinch training, we just couldn't go for the hip toss.

Great post, by the way....

[Pork Chop]

:confused: I was taught using the bear hug, as you described, in traditional Muay Thai, in Thailand. It was part of our clinch training, we just couldn't go for the hip toss.

Great post, by the way....

It is a traditional Thai technique, it's not a ring technique (should I find & quote the rule?).
It also may help explain why traditional MT stance looks so different from ring MT.

[Frost]

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking about it...
The static stance is the way to clear up your form for the dynamic/moving stance...
It's corrective in nature and not the end goal...
Holding it for a long time is not just to build up endurance, but to help you find the best structural fit in order to stay down there without much effort - if your hips need to stretch more to get the mechanics right then they'll stretch...
I just think that too much static practice can be harmful over a long period of time, after you've already got perfect structure.

Going back to what I was saying before about practice how you fight:
Why would Hung Gar want to sit low when a muay thai guy wants to kick out his legs?
Well eventhough I said I don't agree with "fight high, train low"; there's a time and place for everything.

When you're still at the outside range - stay mobile (which would probably be higher).
Even if it's a situation where your legs are getting kicked out - weight on a straight leg that's getting kicked is BAD, weight on a bent leg getting kicked is not as bad - it can even help you absorb & catch the leg kick (see Cung Le's video).
When punching, sitting on your punches is a big thing in boxing, so knowing how to sink into your stance at the moment of contact is a good thing.
There's something to be said for being able to sink, even when striking at range.

Also when you've closed distance & engaged, then sinking can be a good idea.
This is especially true if you're worried about throws, it's not bad to get your hips low on the inside.
Chinese prioritized still being mobile while being engaged, hence all the dynamic stance drills - if you could apply that to wrestling, that would be akin to being able to drop level and shoot shot after shot tirelessly: shoot, get stuffed, step through and shoot, get stuffed, step through & shoot, get stuffed.... till you get it.
If you're about to get thrown sinking your weight's a real good thing - be it making yourself heavy in a sprawl (though not sitting in a horse), or sinking when you're about to be hip thrown.

Now you may be asking: "yeah but why do Thais keep their hips forward & raise on their toes in the clinch?"
Don't forget that their ruleset specifically outlaws wrestling shoots & forward body locks (talking about forward bear hugs where you drive your head into their chest while clinched around their lower back).
The muay thai clinch can be particularly vulnerable to both techniques (speaking from experience).

It's a time and place thing.
I think *some* kung fu schools *can* get a little detached from proper context and get a little obsessive over stance training; but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I wouldn't ask a lot of those questions because as a because as a Thai trained, hung gar and hakka arts practitioner i sort of know the answers already :) but i understand and agree with most of your points.

All i would say is that my hung gar uses low stances because its a grappling art as practised by my sifu, but id simply point out that western wrestling gest the exact same ability to be able to fight low without the use of extended stance work so is it needed?

If wrestlers can get the same result and learn to sink weight heavily as well as anyone ( the two best people i have ever personally seen use sinking skills (not to mention inch range whole body power) were a former Iowa stand out wrestler and billy Robinson) without ever have done stance training as seen in chinese arts, is it really needed???

Personally it think it was originally used to weed out students and extned training time to make money, i think there are better more efficient ways to go about things but hey thats just me

[Pork Chop]

I wouldn't ask a lot of those questions because as a because as a Thai trained, hung gar and hakka arts practitioner i sort of know the answers already :) but i understand and agree with most of your points.

All i would say is that my hung gar uses low stances because its a grappling art as practised by my sifu, but id simply point out that western wrestling gest the exact same ability to be able to fight low without the use of extended stance work so is it needed?

If wrestlers can get the same result and learn to sink weight heavily as well as anyone ( the two best people i have ever personally seen use sinking skills (not to mention inch range whole body power) were a former Iowa stand out wrestler and billy Robinson) without ever have done stance training as seen in chinese arts, is it really needed???

Personally it think it was originally used to weed out students and extned training time to make money, i think there are better more efficient ways to go about things but hey thats just me

I definitely see your points, and they're good ones.
The first point about Hung Gar being a grappling art doesn't contradict what I've been taught about Hung Gar's principles regarding destroying the root.
The second point about wrestling being able to accomplish such sinking really touches on what I mean about missing the context & purpose for the training.
In other words, mistaking the drill for the goal.
The third point about it being a weed out drill, I don't disagree with, but will say that the drills do serve some practical purposes.

So from what I've seen of wrestling practice & in books, shooting drills (ie drilling low, deep penetration steps up and down the mat) are not that uncommon...
I don't see these as fundamentally different from walking back and forth across the mo gwoon in forward stance/gung bo/kung pu.
So I guess in answer to your questions: it's not like your wrestling examples completely do away with such training, they just keep it in context...

Now don't get me wrong, these 2 techniques ARE executed differently - the forward stance is a little higher & the knees don't touch the ground. But there are specific technical reasons for this.

In sanshou this makes sense because the rules don't allow for the knee touching the ground on a shot. Chinese wouldn't seem to appreciate such a shot from the knees historically either - the ground was somewhere that you sent your opponent but stayed away from yourself. Staying off your knees also allows for delivering & dealing with strikes a little better.

MMA wouldn't necessarily be a counter example to this theory either, as it's illegal to strike an opponent to the head with even one of their knees on the ground. But for a nice example of the possibilities should such strikes be allowed (again), see CroCop-Fujita 1 or even Kerr-Igor.

Unfortunately, *most* kung fu schools only see the striking applications for these forward stance drills. They *can* miss some of the context, thinking all striking (and striking alone) should be done in such low stances; when in fact, sinking should probably be done at the end of a strike and keeping your hips continuously low probably makes more sense for grappling.

[YouKnowWho]

keeping your hips continuously low probably makes more sense for grappling.

Actually it doesn't make sense in grappling. If your try to

- sink low, your opponent can help to sink even lower.
- raise high, your opponent can help to raise even higher.

When you

- sink, your legs will be bending. That will give your opponent a chance to "twist".
- raise, your legs will be straight. That will give your opponent a chance to "horse back kick".

You should

- sink when your opponent tries to throw you over his head.
- raise when your opponent tries to drag you down.

[Pork Chop]

Actually it doesn't make sense in grappling. If your try to

- sink low, your opponent can help to sink even lower.
- raise high, your opponent can help to raise even higher.

When you

- sink, your legs will be bending. That will give your opponent a chance to "twist".
- raise, your legs will be straight. That will give your opponent a chance to "horse back kick".

You should

- sink when your opponent tries to throw you over his head.
- raise when your opponent tries to drag you down.

You're exactly right, which is natural coz this stuff is your bread & butter, and you're d@mn good at it. I was mostly talking about dropping down for a shot (or string of shots), sinking down for a pick up, or sinking your hips in for a hip throw. I already know you'd toss me around like a child, so I wouldn't even want to engage with you. :D

[IronFist]

It is a traditional Thai technique, it's not a ring technique (should I find & quote the rule?).
It also may help explain why traditional MT stance looks so different from ring MT.

What does a traditional MT stance look like?

[SevenStar]

http://www.muaythai.it/images/imba/mb1_big.jpg

http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/bPr8cVpBxX0/mqdefault.jpg

http://www.muaythai.it/images/stampa/gmkeat.jpg

[IronFist]

Looks like more of a sideways stance than ring MT.

[Sima Rong]

http://kiaikick.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/kickboxer1.jpg

That stance, 'submitting to the bald emperor', is not a traditional muay thai stance.