Could a WCner do any better?

[thedreamer7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKRyTSr5Mo
Thoughts?

[LaRoux]

Only if he understood grappling and ground fighting and had actually trained for years full force against someone of Royce's ability.

[thedreamer7]

Only if he understood grappling and ground fighting and had actually trained for years full force against someone of Royce's ability.

So would have have to train a different style? Or just stick with WC, but practice on the ground?

Question I get asked alot...

[LaRoux]

So would have have to train a different style? Or just stick with WC, but practice on the ground?

Question I get asked alot...

Yes, he'd have to do significant practice on the ground. Without doing that, he'd be quadruple amputee swimming in a pool with a shark.

As far as practicing a different style, I suppose, eventually he'd figure out what to do on the ground, but it sure wouldn't look much like wing chun. It would be a whole lot more efficient simple to learn a style that specializes in ground fighting.

[GlennR]

So would have have to train a different style? Or just stick with WC, but practice on the ground?

Question I get asked alot...

Needs

to

cross

train

[thedreamer7]

Yes, he'd have to do significant practice on the ground. Without doing that, he'd be quadruple amputee swimming in a pool with a shark.

As far as practicing a different style, I suppose, eventually he'd figure out what to do on the ground, but it sure wouldn't look much like wing chun. It would be a whole lot more efficient simple to learn a style that specializes in ground fighting.

But this is just a fight, the kung fu guy wasn't able to stop guy going to the ground...

[LaRoux]

But this is just a fight, the kung fu guy wasn't able to stop guy going to the ground...

He could have trained wrestling, which would have given him a better chance of not being taken down.

[thedreamer7]

He could have trained wrestling, which would have given him a better chance of not being taken down.

So you don't think WC alone can stop you going down?

[LaRoux]

So you don't think WC alone can stop you going down?

Only if you train it for years against someone who knows takedowns. And, once again, it's not going to look much like wing chun anymore. It would resemble much more what you see in mma for defending takedowns.

[GoldenBrain]

How about a Judo guy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vId1v6N0SEU

Or, what if a Wing Chun guy studied Judo...:eek: Would he even still be a Wing Chun guy...:rolleyes:

I looked up the meaning of MMA just to be sure and yup, it means mixed martial arts so technically any mix of martial arts could be considered MMA right. So whats the point of continuing these stupid unproductive arguments. I mean these to be rhetorical questions so I really don't need an answer. I just thought I'd contribute to your stroke-fest of the MMA world. You're really eat up with it man. This is just my opinion but I think you should just try to relax and enjoy life and let those who like this art or any others be what they want to be. Who gives a **** if Wing Chun or whatever art you are hating on at the moment does whatever.

[EternalSpring]

it's not going to look much like wing chun anymore. It would resemble much more what you see in mma for defending takedowns.

in this day and age, Wing Chun doesn't even look like Wing Chun anymore.

[Hendrik]

IMHO
1. Bjj guy knows his art well.
2. The striker doesn't know his game, and actually playing like playing instead of fighting.
3. There is a hidden rule here , if that rule is broken, the grapple will have not much advantage.

So, coud wcner do better? Yes, get the snake body, no guaranty to win but Atleast one can play while this striker can't. But if you don't have a snake body, but rely on those robot yjkym and holding geometry structure, instead of snake body momentum handling, then you are looking for trouble.


Btw. This guy is not a kungfu man.

[Hendrik]

Only if you train it for years against someone who knows takedowns. And, once again, it's not going to look much like wing chun anymore. It would resemble much more what you see in mma for defending takedowns.

You remind me of Terence .

[GlennR]

IMHO
1. Bjj guy knows his art well.
2. The striker doesn't know his game, and actually playing like playing instead of fighting.
3. There is a hidden rule here , if that rule is broken, the grapple will have not much advantage.

So, coud wcner do better? Yes, get the snake body, no guaranty to win but Atleast one can play while this striker can't. But if you don't have a snake body, but rely on those robot yjkym and holding geometry structure, instead of snake body momentum handling, then you are looking for trouble.


Btw. This guy is not a kungfu man.

How would you know??

Your experience in dealing with a BJJ guy?

Your tip is to get a snake body?

Heres a tip, dont give advice where you have no expertise (fighting)

[Hendrik]

How would you know??

Your experience in dealing with a BJJ guy?

Your tip is to get a snake body?

Heres a tip, dont give advice where you have no expertise (fighting)


I say IMHO .
You sure can keep believe in your nim lik and triangle yjkym....ect. As you don't like my critics of those demo stuffs.

[anerlich]

So, coud wcner do better? Yes, get the snake body, no guaranty to win but Atleast one can play while this striker can't. But if you don't have a snake body, but rely on those robot yjkym and holding geometry structure, instead of snake body momentum handling, then you are looking for trouble.


More realistically, he could learn some basic wrestling skills to avoid take downs like the sprawl. That would get you out of the static stance problems PDQ.

Not sure whether any tactic would have worked by an average standup fighter against a skilled groundfighter like Royce.


You remind me of Terence .

You remind me of him too. Totally OCD on a single issue.

Difference is, he occasionally made sense.

[wingchunIan]

Only if you train it for years against someone who knows takedowns. And, once again, it's not going to look much like wing chun anymore. It would resemble much more what you see in mma for defending takedowns.
Agree with the first bit of this statement. The things people always forget / overlook when looking at early UFC footage are
1) Joyce is/was an exceptionally talented individual who trained full time for his whole life, was at the top of his game and had trained for years against strikers etc
2) Most other competition formats didn't allow ground fighting and in the absence of real fights the majority of striking arts had drifted away from the reality of needing to defend takedowns to the point that they weren't practised much if at all and certainly not against skilled exponents (who throw feints, change levels quickly and cover the ground explosively)

As for the second part of the statement, MMA is constantly evolving. A few years ago the only defence against a takedown ever seen aside from panicked hopping was the sprawl, today it is much different and fighters are showing that with an awareness of what is going on combined with angular footwork and the use of arms to control the head / distance there are plenty of other options.

IMHO the takedown is no different to a kick or a punch. If you can't detect it coming you're in a world of trouble, if you can only detect it late it is difficult to defend but if you detect it early it can be stopped and used to your own advantage. Which brings us back to the first part of the comment above because the only way to develop the skill to recognise what is happening is to train against those types of attacks at an appropriate level

[Frost]

Agree with the first bit of this statement. The things people always forget / overlook when looking at early UFC footage are
1) Joyce is/was an exceptionally talented individual who trained full time for his whole life, was at the top of his game and had trained for years against strikers etc
2) Most other competition formats didn't allow ground fighting and in the absence of real fights the majority of striking arts had drifted away from the reality of needing to defend takedowns to the point that they weren't practised much if at all and certainly not against skilled exponents (who throw feints, change levels quickly and cover the ground explosively)

As for the second part of the statement, MMA is constantly evolving. A few years ago the only defence against a takedown ever seen aside from panicked hopping was the sprawl, today it is much different and fighters are showing that with an awareness of what is going on combined with angular footwork and the use of arms to control the head / distance there are plenty of other options.

IMHO the takedown is no different to a kick or a punch. If you can't detect it coming you're in a world of trouble, if you can only detect it late it is difficult to defend but if you detect it early it can be stopped and used to your own advantage. Which brings us back to the first part of the comment above because the only way to develop the skill to recognise what is happening is to train against those types of attacks at an appropriate level

Regarding the second part takedown defence hasn’t changed in MMA all that much in the last 10 years people in the know (ie wrestlers) used the following to defend: footwork and level change at outside distance, in close its head arms (underhooks and framing) then as a final result hips (sprawling) these days all that’s happened is others have caught on that this is the best way to stop takedowns so La Roux is correct if you train constantl;y against skilled takedown artists you will begin to look exactly like how MMA fighters who did this have always looked

And to answer the question in my opinion a typical wing chun guy and they way 90% of wing chun guys train and apprach fighting would fair as bad if not worse than the guy in the clip

[Graham H]

Got any MMA defenses against this? :rolleyes:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/man-jailed-random-punch-attacks-160110909.html;_ylt=Ao0IoDxaZjSC3H6m7iSBeFnffMl_;_ ylu=X3oDMTU2ZHJiam5jBGNjb2RlA2N0LmMEbWl0A01vc3RQb3 B1bGFyIEZQIE1peGVkIExpc3QEcGtnAzdkYThiZWFjLTRhZTAt Mzc2Ni1iNjc0LTczMjNlNGQ0OTc1ZARwb3MDMzIEc2VjA01lZG lhQkxpc3RNaXhlZE1vc3RQb3B1bGFyQ0FUZW1wBHZlcgM0M2Yy Nzk2Mi03ZjdkLTExZTItOWZmZi1iYjk4MmNkNjM1MWY-;_ylg=X3oDMTBhY2IwdWc5BGxhbmcDZW4tR0I-;_ylv=3#An7it2L

[Frost]

Got any MMA defenses against this? :rolleyes:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/man-jailed-random-punch-attacks-160110909.html;_ylt=Ao0IoDxaZjSC3H6m7iSBeFnffMl_;_ ylu=X3oDMTU2ZHJiam5jBGNjb2RlA2N0LmMEbWl0A01vc3RQb3 B1bGFyIEZQIE1peGVkIExpc3QEcGtnAzdkYThiZWFjLTRhZTAt Mzc2Ni1iNjc0LTczMjNlNGQ0OTc1ZARwb3MDMzIEc2VjA01lZG lhQkxpc3RNaXhlZE1vc3RQb3B1bGFyQ0FUZW1wBHZlcgM0M2Yy Nzk2Mi03ZjdkLTExZTItOWZmZi1iYjk4MmNkNjM1MWY-;_ylg=X3oDMTBhY2IwdWc5BGxhbmcDZW4tR0I-;_ylv=3#An7it2L

are you going all kevin on us/?????:eek::eek:

[anerlich]

Got any MMA defenses against this? :rolleyes:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/man-jailed-random-punch-attacks-160110909.html;_ylt=Ao0IoDxaZjSC3H6m7iSBeFnffMl_;_ ylu=X3oDMTU2ZHJiam5jBGNjb2RlA2N0LmMEbWl0A01vc3RQb3 B1bGFyIEZQIE1peGVkIExpc3QEcGtnAzdkYThiZWFjLTRhZTAt Mzc2Ni1iNjc0LTczMjNlNGQ0OTc1ZARwb3MDMzIEc2VjA01lZG lhQkxpc3RNaXhlZE1vc3RQb3B1bGFyQ0FUZW1wBHZlcgM0M2Yy Nzk2Mi03ZjdkLTExZTItOWZmZi1iYjk4MmNkNjM1MWY-;_ylg=X3oDMTBhY2IwdWc5BGxhbmcDZW4tR0I-;_ylv=3#An7it2L

Have you got at PBWSLVT defense against it?

[thedreamer7]

Have you got at PBWSLVT defense against it?

Sounds like a good night time rent-a-cop story :)

[Graham H]

Have you got at PBWSLVT defense against it?

Yes. I would make the same shape on the floor as the victim did. No problem.

Maybe if I took up MMA or cross trained BJJ I would fare better :rolleyes:

[Graham H]

are you going all kevin on us/?????:eek::eek:

I respect Kevin's opinions and ideas on Ving Tsun. Unlike most on here I actually understand what he means. In that context yes I am.

You could join us for a one off payment of $1500. You can join our cult for a bit of hero worshipping, video posting and wrong ideas on Ving Tsun posting.

I expect you will just stay at your slightly elevated level though. :)

[wingchunIan]

Regarding the second part takedown defence hasn’t changed in MMA all that much in the last 10 years people in the know (ie wrestlers) used the following to defend: footwork and level change at outside distance, in close its head arms (underhooks and framing) then as a final result hips (sprawling) these days all that’s happened is others have caught on that this is the best way to stop takedowns so La Roux is correct if you train constantl;y against skilled takedown artists you will begin to look exactly like how MMA fighters who did this have always looked

And to answer the question in my opinion a typical wing chun guy and they way 90% of wing chun guys train and apprach fighting would fair as bad if not worse than the guy in the clip

The beauty of perception is that it is individual so we will have to agree to disagree. From my POV whilst wrestlers may still be using the same takedown defences they always did they have evolved their style to be more effective at dealing with strikes. In the same way strikers in MMA have developed take down defences. If you watch fights from UFC etc from differing time periods with a neutral viewpoint you will be able to see the trends that i mentioned in my earlier post, initially no defence to takedowns, then a period where at the first sign of a shoot or takedown attempt there was a sprawl, quite literally everyone was doing it, today the sprawl is seen far less often even in fights where one participant or the other is trying to take the match to the ground.

[Frost]

The beauty of perception is that it is individual so we will have to agree to disagree. From my POV whilst wrestlers may still be using the same takedown defences they always did they have evolved their style to be more effective at dealing with strikes. In the same way strikers in MMA have developed take down defences. If you watch fights from UFC etc from differing time periods with a neutral viewpoint you will be able to see the trends that i mentioned in my earlier post, initially no defence to takedowns, then a period where at the first sign of a shoot or takedown attempt there was a sprawl, quite literally everyone was doing it, today the sprawl is seen far less often even in fights where one participant or the other is trying to take the match to the ground.

that wasnt the point i was trying to make, my fault sorry for not being clear

the point is people with expereince with dealing with takedowns all end up looking the same, what you have seen in MMA isnt an evolution in takedown defense as such, its simply those without that expereince gaining it and learning the same lessons and developing the same skills as those already experineced in wrestling,

And they all tend to look the same which i believe was leroux points, if you train your wing chun against a skilled grappler your defenses will also start to look the same over time...the sprawl is a case in point watch randy in his early fights he never sprawled he used under hooks and feet movement (as did all early MMA guys with a wretling background) the evolution is simply people learning the lessons wrestlers always knew the sprawl is the last line of defense not the first

[Frost]

I respect Kevin's opinions and ideas on Ving Tsun. Unlike most on here I actually understand what he means. In that context yes I am.

You could join us for a one off payment of $1500. You can join our cult for a bit of hero worshipping, video posting and wrong ideas on Ving Tsun posting.

I expect you will just stay at your slightly elevated level though. :)

so we can expect random THE STREET videos on most threads from now on then??? :) and then you deleting your threads if things dont go your way :)

thanks for the kind offer but my cult days are long past!!

[Graham H]

so we can expect random THE STREET videos on most threads from now on then??? :) and then you deleting your threads if things dont go your way :)

thanks for the kind offer but my cult days are long past!!

I don't post too many videos especially not of Wing Chun. There is enough rubbish on here. :)

[Frost]

I don't post too many videos especially not of Wing Chun. There is enough rubbish on here. :)

true ill give you that Kevins videos fell into two catagories:
PB loveins and street violance which no one could quite figure out why he had posted.....please dont go down his route some of your posts are actually good to read :)

[Graham H]

please dont go down his route some of your posts are actually good to read :)

Sometimes I try but then I'm clotheslined by Wing Chun police squad :D

[thedreamer7]

true ill give you that Kevins videos fell into two catagories:
PB loveins and street violance which no one could quite figure out why he had posted.....please dont go down his route some of your posts are actually good to read :)
So never a demonstration or fight with himself in it? Interesting...

[Frost]

So never a demonstration or fight with himself in it? Interesting...

Nope never :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKRyTSr5Mo
Thoughts?

If you do not train to fight against something then you will NOT have any experience on how to deal with it.
Now, if the skill level difference is VERY high, that may not matter BUT if there is any decent amount of skill on the part of the opponent and he brings something to the "table" that you don't have any experience with, the advantage is, typically, His.

[Graham H]

If you do not train to fight against something then you will NOT have any experience on how to deal with it.
Now, if the skill level difference is VERY high, that may not matter BUT if there is any decent amount of skill on the part of the opponent and he brings something to the "table" that you don't have any experience with, the advantage is, typically, His.

Are we talking in a competition environment here?

[thedreamer7]

Are we talking in a competition environment here?

I didn't see a competition in the Gracie clip, just a fight. I guess you could argue a fight on the street has concrete, etc, however it could also happen on grass:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are we talking in a competition environment here?

Well, if it doesn't work under the controlled conditions of competition, that chances if it working in the Uncontrolled conditions are, logically, less.
Competition make sit a level playing field for BOTH parties and in "the street" BOTH are free to do whatever they want.

[sanjuro_ronin]

IN short:
If you can't beat someone when THEY are limited by the rules and environment, what makes you think you can beat them when they are NOT limited by them?

[Graham H]

IN short:
If you can't beat someone when THEY are limited by the rules and environment, what makes you think you can beat them when they are NOT limited by them?

Which will bring me straight back to my opinion that until you face them how will you know?

The best you can do is improve your chances through training but that shouldn't mean that you have to study every combat system to ensure your victory.

[thedreamer7]

Which will bring me straight back to my opinion that until you face them how will you know?

The best you can do is improve your chances through training but that shouldn't mean that you have to study every combat system to ensure your victory.

Agree, perhaps just train from being attacked at a different angle...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Which will bring me straight back to my opinion that until you face them how will you know?

The best you can do is improve your chances through training but that shouldn't mean that you have to study every combat system to ensure your victory.

Wish that we could!
But obviously it is not realistic BUT we must keep abreast of what is out there of course.
Better to learn on the mat than on the street, know what I mean?
IF, and that is a big if, we train our chosen MA for self=protection and/or to be in line with it's tradition of being a "practical fighting system" then it is our responsibility to keep it as such.
That comes from hard work of course.
We don't have to drop our chosen system ( unless we decide we have found a better fit for Us), we just have to allow it to evolve to deal with what it may have to deal with.

[LaRoux]

As for the second part of the statement, MMA is constantly evolving. A few years ago the only defence against a takedown ever seen aside from panicked hopping was the sprawl, today it is much different and fighters are showing that with an awareness of what is going on combined with angular footwork and the use of arms to control the head / distance there are plenty of other options.

Wrestlers and those who had a decent amount of wrestling and were doing MMA always had a whole arsenal of takedown defenses.

[Hendrik]

IMHO, lot of today's WCK has become fist art, not even a strike art, but just punching in fist distance kicking in kick distance. There are no solution out of that range , the body is clumsy.

How can tese type of practice play against the full range art which expertise in close body such as bjj? It can't. IMHO. One doesn't even know how to move ones body part in full.

Also, as in the the hook and wing Chun YouTube. The person is suggest to punch others center and that is it. Well, that is to ignore the momentum which has already activate. Such as trying to push away a collision and out of control car , can it be done? Or one end up dead smash into it. That type of theory is living in a momentum vacuum world .


So, instead of go far away, just look at the basic and it cannot be done.


I brought up the snake body crane limbs because wing Chun suppose to be able to use most part of the body to play with the dynamic momentum and force change. That is ability result the development of the snake body. That is wck inch jin. Now, if this ability is lost, one doesn't even have the basic training. How is WCK work at all? You think that Bruce lee inch punch party trick can do anything real at all? That is fantasy.

Some People here don't like it when I mention 1850 , but then when speak, one needs to speak with evidence of what it is Wing Chun of the passed. Instead of define and created ones own wing Chun or chi or .....etc confuse the heck out of everything. But still don't know what is going on.

IMHO, is WCK everything? No! But what is WCK strength and weakness? That has to be clear.

[desertwingchun2]

Firstof all, there is nothing humble about you. Second, your Wing Chun ( i use the term loosely) has become You Tube videos and Yoga Balls. So in effect you dont have any strikes or punches.
And if you are talking kicking, well we all know you are no expert in that arena either. As last time you tried to demonstrate that live, you were flat backed twice. No wonder you will never see anyone.




IMHO, lot of today's WCK has become fist art, not even a strike art, but just punching in fist distance kicking in kick distance. There are no solution out of that range , the body is clumsy.

[anerlich]

Yes. I would make the same shape on the floor as the victim did. No problem.

Maybe if I took up MMA or cross trained BJJ I would fare better :rolleyes:

Fair enough.

[YouKnowWho]

So you don't think WC alone can stop you going down?

This is a good question. In order to resist for being taken down, you have to train a lot of skills which is very specialized in the grappling art. For example, if your opponent uses the front cut (Osoto Gari) on you,

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

if you can sink down into a right bow and left arrow stance with body rotation to your right, you can resist to be taken down. Is low bow-arrow stance and body rotation part of the WC training?

http://imageshack.us/a/img860/580/oldpic211.jpg

There are many throws and each throw will require different way to resist. The bow-arrow stance is just one of many skills that will be needed in the grappling world.

[Hendrik]

If you do not train to fight against something then you will NOT have any experience on how to deal with it.
Now, if the skill level difference is VERY high, that may not matter BUT if there is any decent amount of skill on the part of the opponent and he brings something to the "table" that you don't have any experience with, the advantage is, typically, His.

Totally agree!