Shawn Obasi with three other WC Sifu

[Grumblegeezer]

I stole these clips from a guy's post on another forum. I hadn't seen them before and got a kick out of them. Check 'em out.

Shawn Obasi Rolling with Randy Williams, Sam Kwok and Emin Boztepe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAvuZOlm_aI - Obasi & Sifu Kwok

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRYHOA_8aXA - Obasi & Sifu Williams

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-fElkCj0qk - Obasi & Sifu Boztepe

[anerlich]

Interesting.

I have to say that Emin looked pretty slick, and I'm not just referring to the ponytail ;)

[LaRoux]

I stole these clips from a guy's post on another forum. I hadn't seen them before and got a kick out of them. Check 'em out.

Shawn Obasi Rolling with Randy Williams, Sam Kwok and Emin Boztepe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAvuZOlm_aI - Obasi & Sifu Kwok

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRYHOA_8aXA - Obasi & Sifu Williams

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-fElkCj0qk - Obasi & Sifu Boztepe


The last one was basically Obasi being Boztepe's compliant training dummy.

Not that doing chi sao has anything to do with fighting anyway.

[Grumblegeezer]

The last one was basically Obasi being Boztepe's compliant training dummy.

I've been there with Emin (a very long time ago) and I understand why Obasi was compliant. Emin will hurt you if you are not. Of course he's older now and a lot mellower. Still... At least in the context of the chi-sau game, Obasi clearly knew who was boss. Same for an all out fight. In the ring? Well who knows?

[Badnews]

In the Randy W and Sam K videos...Obassi was using his size to out muscle them ...Emin is a physically more intimidating specimen than both of the other guys, and Shawns demeanor seemed to reflect this. I agree with La Roux ...he was far more compliant and seemed less like he was trying to prove something in the Emin video.

[Bernard]

S. Kwok doing chi sao with Obasi while blindfolded was cool!

[Jake104]

There is a good article somewhere on Hawkins Cheungs Website where he talks about Ip Man and how he was gentle with he's students but still dominated them, and for that reason they respected him and his skill. Plus they still learned and got something useful out of the chi Sao training. Cause in my opinion being scared of your sifu and freezing up and becoming compliant is not useful for any thing other than making your Sifu and his demo look good. In real life that may get you killed.

Just edit the whole post gone since opinions aren't welcome unless there filtered through you mr mod. Might as well erase it All

[BPWT]

It's not really about being scared, but about knowing that you will get hit. As a result, you come in when you really can - when you're position is good, 'the way is free', etc.

If you play Chi Sao in a very light way, you will always be more willing to come in on a 'bad risk', because there is no consequence other than a light touch. I think this develops bad habits and is, itself, backward logic.

Of course, Chi Sao isn't a fight, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't give a little juice to your strikes.

But I am from the Leung Ting system, so what I see in this clip of Emin I like - certainly I like it much more than the clip with Sam Kwok or the one with Randy Williams.

[Jake104]

It's not really about being scared, but about knowing that you will get hit. As a result, you come in when you really can - when you're position is good, 'the way is free', etc.

If you play Chi Sao in a very light way, you will always be more willing to come in on a 'bad risk', because there is no consequence other than a light touch. I think this develops bad habits and is, itself, backward logic.

Of course, Chi Sao isn't a fight, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't give a little juice to your strikes.

But I am from the Leung Ting system, so what I see in this clip of Emin I like - certainly I like it much more than the clip with Sam Kwok or the one with Randy Williams.
First off i didn't say anything about doing chi Sao light and coming in with techniques to try and tag each other like aome kind of game. I know there are different strokes for different fokes and some like that sort of thing. Second i never said chi sao is a fight most who are good at that sort of chi sao cant fight there way out of a wet paper bag.

The chi Sao between Shawn and Emin lacked forward intent/ pressure/ structure. I'm only going off what I see in the video and that's rolling soft without whole body forward pressure. What I see is limp sticky arm rolling.. And Gumblegeezer said that you don't dare go hard cause Emin will hurt you.

Oh and by the way you will get hit in a real fight . If you are scared to get hit don't fight. Either continue the KF fantasy or take up tennis or golf.

[BPWT]

@Jake104

Okay, whatever. I guess we see different things in this video. I don't know where you train or how you train - good luck with whatever method you use - so I can't judge, I guess.

But there is no KF fantasy land where I am training - no one is scared to get hit, we do get hit (in Chi Sao and Lat Sao, etc), we just try to learn not to walk into hits via bad positioning (and no, I am not saying that is how you train... I am simply stating that is not how we train).

But as ever, if you feel that here Emin demonstrates no forward pressure, etc, then you are entitled to your opinion. You can always go roll with him to see for yourself. :)

[anerlich]

Oh and by the way you will get hit in a real fight

Oh really? No one on this forum's ever said that before. You must be really good at Wing Chun and have extraordinary insight. :p

None of these are fights. Can't you "extra hardcore" people see ANYTHING decent in thiese clips? How would YOU fare if it were you instead of Sean?

[thedreamer7]

There is a good article somewhere on Hawkins Cheungs Website where he talks about Ip Man and how he was gentle with he's students but still dominated them, and for that reason they respected him and his skill. Plus they still learned and got something useful out of the chi Sao training. Cause in my opinion being scared of your sifu and freezing up and becoming compliant is not useful for any thing other than making your Sifu and his demo look good. In real life that may get you killed.

Just edit the whole post gone since opinions aren't welcome unless there filtered through you mr mod. Might as well erase it All

Excellent point, real skill can be demonstrated without the need to strike your student hard. I would say it takes more skill to chi-sau hard and then stop at the point of impact. Emin tends to just bash his students when in chi-sau, just brute force.

If you look at this clip on part 3.26, you will see chi sau done hard, but with no strikes to the students. From Leo Au Yeung, a clear demonstration of skill and technique without the need to hurt the student.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvGuaTk4B38

[BPWT]

If you look at this clip on part 3.26, you will see chi sau done hard, but with no strikes to the students. From Leo Au Yeung, a clear demonstration of skill and technique without the need to hurt the student.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvGuaTk4B38

Well, I'd agree that he's not hurting the student. :) But I'm not too keen on this type of Chi Sao, to be honest - he might go in hard (well, hard'ish) but for me the control of range is not too good.

But hey, we all train Chi Sao for different reasons and in different ways. :D

[thedreamer7]

Well, I'd agree that he's not hurting the student. :) But I'm not too keen on this type of Chi Sao, to be honest - he might go in hard (well, hard'ish) but for me the control of range is not too good.

But hey, we all train Chi Sao for different reasons and in different ways. :D

Well I think range, etc is dictated by your opponent. The key here is to show how to chi sau hard and demonstrate superior skill and technique without bashing your opponent. We have sparing for that:)

[Wayfaring]

So a guy with a few MMA fights is doing chi sau with famous teachers. I guess I'm supposed to be impressed by the blindfolds, the "softness", and how Emin would "really hurt him". I guess I'm just not impressed by those things.

In all honesty, it just looks like people doing chi sau. Nothing special.

[Jansingsang]

Excellent point, real skill can be demonstrated without the need to strike your student hard. I would say it takes more skill to chi-sau hard and then stop at the point of impact. Emin tends to just bash his students when in chi-sau, just brute force.

If you look at this clip on part 3.26, you will see chi sau done hard, but with no strikes to the students. From Leo Au Yeung, a clear demonstration of skill and technique without the need to hurt the student.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvGuaTk4B38

ONE WORD GARBAGE. ; I don't see any skill It's amazing what people perceive as good chi sao or what ever all i see is flailing arms and trying to look good for the. Camera joker






:D
Excellent point, real skill can be demonstrated without the need to strike your student hard. I would say it takes more skill to chi-sau hard and then stop at the point of impact. Emin tends to just bash his students when in chi-sau, just brute force.

If you look at this clip on part 3.26, you will see chi sau done hard, but with no strikes to the students. From Leo Au Yeung, a clear demonstration of skill and technique without the need to hurt the student.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvGuaTk4B38

[thedreamer7]

ONE WORD GARBAGE. ; I don't see any skill It's amazing what people perceive as good chi sao or what ever all i see is flailing arms and trying to look good for the. Camera joker
:D

Can you show us an example? Or is this just trolling...

[Jansingsang]

Can you show us an example? Or is this just trolling...

Yep just trolling not allowed to have a opinion Give this piluck a cigar:D

[Grumblegeezer]

The chi Sao between Shawn and Emin lacked forward intent/ pressure/ structure. I'm only going off what I see in the video and that's rolling soft without whole body forward pressure. What I see is limp sticky arm rolling.. And Gumblegeezer said that you don't dare go hard cause Emin will hurt you.

Jake, I wouldn't ever characterize Emin's Chi-Sau as limp. Actually, for a large, strong guy, he is surprizingly yielding, but there is still a lot of foward intent.

And, I don't believe he's a total bully either. He definitely holds back from hurting his students. I know a couple of EBMAS guys and they love him. But the people who train with him closely, train very physically. If they can't take it physically, they will get hurt. Maybe that's just good, realistic training. Not for me though. What I was getting at in my comment about Obasi, is that Emin wouldn't tolerate a challenging attitude like Obasi showed towards Randy Williams. No way.

[LaRoux]

Jake, I wouldn't ever characterize Emin's Chi-Sau as limp. Actually, for a large, strong guy, he is surprizingly yielding, but there is still a lot of foward intent.

And, I don't believe he's a total bully either. He definitely holds back from hurting his students. I know a couple of EBMAS guys and they love him. But the people who train with him closely, train very physically. If they can't take it physically, they will get hurt. Maybe that's just good, realistic training. Not for me though. What I was getting at in my comment about Obasi, is that Emin wouldn't tolerate a challenging attitude like Obasi showed towards Randy Williams. No way.

Somehow I have a feeling that if Boztepe "didn't allow" Obasi to have a challenging attitude, Obasi could simply do the same thing and take things out of the realm of chi sao and pretty much school Boztepe.

[Grumblegeezer]

Somehow I have a feeling that if Boztepe "didn't allow" Obasi to have a challenging attitude, Obasi could simply do the same thing and take things out of the realm of chi sao and pretty much school Boztepe.

I doubt it. Old as Emin is, he's still a tough guy. But either way, it would be fun to watch! :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I stole these clips from a guy's post on another forum. I hadn't seen them before and got a kick out of them. Check 'em out.

Shawn Obasi Rolling with Randy Williams, Sam Kwok and Emin Boztepe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAvuZOlm_aI - Obasi & Sifu Kwok

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRYHOA_8aXA - Obasi & Sifu Williams

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-fElkCj0qk - Obasi & Sifu Boztepe

3 different clips, 3 different types of chi sao.

[Subitai]

Just a question for you guys,

You always hear allot about Philip Bayer on this forum and also Emin...I was wondering if these 2 gentleman have ever crossed hands?

Any first hand accounts?

Just curious because those 2 seem to be the spoken of very often.

[Sihing73]

I doubt it. Old as Emin is, he's still a tough guy. But either way, it would be fun to watch! :D

I have met and trained with Emin, years ago when he was still associated with LT and KK. To consider him old makes me feel bad myself as I believe I am older than him. :(

I have heard that Emin has mellowed over the years, I feel he was rather the Bully in the early days. Not taking anything away from his skill or training. Emin always did train hard no matter what, and you cannot take the resultant skill away from him.

[anerlich]

Just a question for you guys,

You always hear allot about Philip Bayer on this forum and also Emin...I was wondering if these 2 gentleman have ever crossed hands?

Any first hand accounts?

Just curious because those 2 seem to be the spoken of very often.

Excellent question. This would definitely be a meeting of two of the better European practitioners of their generation.

[thedreamer7]

Just a question for you guys,

You always hear allot about Philip Bayer on this forum and also Emin...I was wondering if these 2 gentleman have ever crossed hands?

Any first hand accounts?

Just curious because those 2 seem to be the spoken of very often.

Emin well known because of the William Cheung fight?

[anerlich]

Emin well known because of the William Cheung fight?

In your case, apparently so.

[Grumblegeezer]

I have met and trained with Emin, years ago when he was still associated with LT and KK. To consider him old makes me feel bad myself as I believe I am older than him. :(

I have heard that Emin has mellowed over the years, I feel he was rather the Bully in the early days. Not taking anything away from his skill or training. Emin always did train hard no matter what, and you cannot take the resultant skill away from him.

Exactly my point. I'm about 6 or 7 years older than Emin myself. Like you, I met him when he first came to the US back in the late 80's and had the same impression. He was pretty rough. Much later I met him again at some Latosa Escrima seminars I attended, and he was much mellower. He even introduced me to his students as their "uncle", even though I am not an EBMAS member. I thought that was generous.

[Frost]

I doubt it. Old as Emin is, he's still a tough guy. But either way, it would be fun to watch! :D
really is this based on having seen |Emin fight full contact or on his reputation?
I ask because realistically only one of them as anything like a decent variable fight record, and whilst one has been in the cage and fought MMA the other went running when the Gracie's answered his challenge and begged students of john blumming not to fight him when they called him on his attitude (this was mentioned by bluming himself in a television interview here in the uk)

[thedreamer7]

really is this based on having seen |Emin fight full contact or on his reputation?
I ask because realistically only one of them as anything like a decent variable fight record, and whilst one has been in the cage and fought MMA the other went running when the Gracie's answered his challenge and begged students of john blumming not to fight him when they called him on his attitude (this was mentioned by bluming himself in a television interview here in the uk)

Just read the article from John Blumming, thanks its interesting...
http://www.realfighting.com/content.php?id=93

[Ali. R]

Yeah, he was pretty rough back then, I’d remember going to a seminar with my student ‘Eric Eebersloe’, with the guy that’s sitting next to me (a student for 20 years). And Emin was teaching grappling defense, and had my student come out on the floor with him to roll around.

And my student choked him out with a rear neck choke really fast (less than 20 sec); in front of everyone (he’s a black belt in Judo) and Emin did tapped out. Later that afternoon Emin said; “that Eric was the toughest man at the table” when we all went out to eat. He was real nice to my student and I for that whole weekend.

I’ve always thought he (Emin) was a good person with a big heart, and he went up a few marks with me by making that comment about my student.

My instructors of the Detroit branch:

[k gledhill]

Good article ! Training to beat the rules , great line.

[LaRoux]

Just read the article from John Blumming, thanks its interesting...
http://www.realfighting.com/content.php?id=93

From the Bluming article:

"And you know, it’s very funny, the Chinese Boxing Federation, the Wing Chun, they are very very selfish and dedicated to their own style. My boys went over there (to Emin Boztepe’s) Dolman and Vrij and a few other guys, because he claimed no one can beat him, you know, he was on his knees crying, and I’m not kidding you. He’s an *******. He said, please guys this is only for advertising, come on, I just want to make a dollar, that’s all, so they just spit on him and they left. No, he’s an *******. I personally don’t know him."

Interesting and not in the least surprising.

[anerlich]

Ah, memories.

The dutch are one tough bunch of mofos ... I don't understand why they aren't ruling the world (although they more or less did a few centuries ago).

RIP Ramon Dekkers.

[Grumblegeezer]

From the Bluming article:
...He said, please guys this is only for advertising, come on, I just want to make a dollar, that’s all, so they just spit on him and they left. No, he’s an *******. I personally don’t know him."

Interesting and not in the least surprising.

The part about "trying to make a buck rings true". Also trying to avoid a brawl if the odds are against you. People who are street-wise tend to be smart that way. But this is all a bunch of old hearsay crap and old war stories.

People say, "how do you know so and so is tough if they don't have a fight record?" Over the years I've met quite a few like that. Some were in gangs, or were LEO's, bouncers, marines. Some have been through stuff that makes MMA seem like kindergarten. You can sense when they are for real. I'm surprised some people don't seem to get that. Especially on a martial arts forum.

[LaRoux]

People say, "how do you know so and so is tough if they don't have a fight record?" Over the years I've met quite a few like that. Some were in gangs, or were LEO's, bouncers, marines. Some have been through stuff that makes MMA seem like kindergarten. You can sense when they are for real. I'm surprised some people don't seem to get that. Especially on a martial arts forum.

History is filled with "tough guys" that everyone "knew" were tough because they acted that way and were intimidating to people they knew they could intimidate, but weren't really so tough when it was finally time for the rubber to hit the road.

Putting out a "tough" vibe doesn't make someone tough. I'm surprised people don't get that. Especially on a martial arts forum.

[Ali. R]

People say, "how do you know so and so is tough if they don't have a fight record?" Over the years I've met quite a few like that. Some were in gangs, or were LEO's, bouncers, marines. Some have been through stuff that makes MMA seem like kindergarten. You can sense when they are for real. I'm surprised some people don't seem to get that. Especially on a martial arts forum.


What you said is true. I was in a famous Detroit/World Renowned Gang called The Y.B.I. One of the first and original captains/soldier joined in 1979, 5 years later became a captain; weekly income over 8 thousand a week. Leader: Butch Jones, affiliated with Frank Lucas.

We had a certain mentality when dealing with a code, I’ve seen guys handcuffed to a basement pole and beat half to death with bats and was later never troubled or fazed by it, and that could have easily been me. After seeing things like that for many years, I’d became numb to empathy and very cold. But my life was changed through Islam.

We had a lot of concert brawls (Rick James, Prince, and Parliament), hell, we owned the production company that brought them to Detroit (Tarsus Production); we fought a lot with the fist but mostly with guns. But we did a lot of medieval sh!t to keep the noise down too, and always made a serious statement.

The guys I grew up with are some of the most deadly/dangerous people you ever want to know, a bunch of real killers even at the age of 60, they will kill you without even thinking about it. As I grew older; that’s a part of my life that I’m not so proud of now.

[thedreamer7]

People say, "how do you know so and so is tough if they don't have a fight record?" Over the years I've met quite a few like that. Some were in gangs, or were LEO's, bouncers, marines. Some have been through stuff that makes MMA seem like kindergarten. You can sense when they are for real. I'm surprised some people don't seem to get that. Especially on a martial arts forum.

Agreed. However when you make open challenges, claim your invincible, you open yourself to challenges and ridicule if you don't carry through. This fake tough image which is not backed is really just about cheating students into joining a school wrongfully.

[Grumblegeezer]

Agreed. However when you make open challenges, claim your invincible, you open yourself to challenges and ridicule if you don't carry through. This fake tough image which is not backed is really just about cheating students into joining a school wrongfully.

You're right. And I think that's what eating at LaRoux too. So many guys out there are basically marketing fantasies.

As for myself, I'm not a tough guy at all. Just a guy who loves TCMA. My basic strategy for self defense is avoidance. And stuff I've learned from some people who have had to deal with the nastier side of life. But out here even solid hand to hand skills could be viewed as "Larping" by some, since so many people carry guns. Where I live anybody without a record can legally carry openly or concealed without a permit. So it pays to be polite.

[Frost]

The part about "trying to make a buck rings true". Also trying to avoid a brawl if the odds are against you. People who are street-wise tend to be smart that way. But this is all a bunch of old hearsay crap and old war stories.

People say, "how do you know so and so is tough if they don't have a fight record?" Over the years I've met quite a few like that. Some were in gangs, or were LEO's, bouncers, marines. Some have been through stuff that makes MMA seem like kindergarten. You can sense when they are for real. I'm surprised some people don't seem to get that. Especially on a martial arts forum.

The problem is the only people who say Emin is really hard and bad are
a)students of his or
b) people who themselves haven't got a fight record
As for it making MMA seem like kindergardgen well bluming has killed people both in the street (he gives a nice reason as to who he uses open hand strikes as opposed to punches because a guy he punched in self defense took 24 hours to die) and in military hand to hand combat in korea
The difference is his hard man stuff, especially the Korea fighting can be varified by historical records and we can see how tough he and his training is bu the students he has produced (they have fought and won in MMA, Thai and K1 right up to world title level)
Emin has no record either military, criminal or cage wise and no students that im aware of who have done anything of note.....

Oh and he wasn’t trying to avoid a fight when the odds were against him, Doleman was there to fight him one on one the rest to ensure his students stayed out of it, both bluming and doleman have written about the incident, and bluming also talked about in an documentary here in the UK about martial arts and since doleman was well known in japan for fighting challenges and blumming for having his guys fight anyone interested id say it’s a little bit more than hearsay from their side and it fits perfectly with Emins culture of backing out of fights as soon as they are accepted…see his running battle of words with the gracies lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

From the Bluming article:

"And you know, it’s very funny, the Chinese Boxing Federation, the Wing Chun, they are very very selfish and dedicated to their own style. My boys went over there (to Emin Boztepe’s) Dolman and Vrij and a few other guys, because he claimed no one can beat him, you know, he was on his knees crying, and I’m not kidding you. He’s an *******. He said, please guys this is only for advertising, come on, I just want to make a dollar, that’s all, so they just spit on him and they left. No, he’s an *******. I personally don’t know him."

Interesting and not in the least surprising.

Having had the privilege being beat up by some of His (Blumming's) guys and attended a seminar of his where he beat me up to, I can say that the Dutch judo-kyokushin-MT guys all pout their money where their mouth is.
ALL will fight you on a drop of a dime IF you are willing to.
Blumming does tend to be "colouful" in his choice of words BUT he also tends to be truthful ( at least in regards to how he remembers things).

I have no doubts that the Ruas and Rutten things are true and, if I recall correctly, He and his people were invited by the Gracies too.

[Paddington]

So, what happened to the thread I made linking to this video and related to the topics of this thread?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1OWyTO2gys

[thedreamer7]

So, what happened to the thread I made linking to this video and related to the topics of this thread?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1OWyTO2gys

Wrestling with headbutts?

[Paddington]

Wrestling with headbutts?

What do you mean by this? Are you asking me why I think the link I cite, is relevant to this thread?

[Robinhood]

Wrestling with headbutts?

Why was the head butting guy so grumpy ?, what was the other guy doing that he didn't like ?

I don't know how effective most of the head butts would be anyway, not close enough and target not lined up most of the time.

[Jansingsang]

Why was the head butting guy so grumpy ?, what was the other guy doing that he didn't like ?

I don't know how effective most of the head butts would be anyway, not close enough and target not lined up most of the time.

Randy was p!$$ed about being touched in the face He had a photo shoot that day God damit :D

The headbutt thing He claims its. within his Biu Ji Amazing:rolleyes:

[Graham H]

The headbutt thing He claims its. within his Biu Ji Amazing:rolleyes:

Maybe he has a nervous tick :)

[Jansingsang]

Maybe he has a nervous tick :)

Not being funny as Ironic as it sounds if that's the case with Biu Ji. Why do a emergency technique within Chi sau ?

Must be messing his pants every time he gets down funny fella :D

[Paddington]

Maybe he has a nervous tick :)

I used to have one of those as a child! They are a bugger to control and one day I knocked myself out due to it! :D

On topic and with regards to the youtube clip I posted, it is my understanding that the guy in yellow is Sifu Joeseph Ng. I have actually enjoyed watching clips of him chi sauing over the years. He jokes around a lot, has fun and plays rather than 'fights'.

I've also seen Sifu Ng put himself in dangerous positions and be hit and often I have seen him do this on purpose, to train what I view as techniques from biu gee. I have also seen Sifu Ng unload on someone and, yeah, I think if he exploded on Randy like I know he is capable of, a minor head twitch would be the least of Randy's medical problems.

In all honesty, I think Randy took exception to Sifu Ng's idiosyncratic style and those little inside side palms that Sifu Ng continually placed on Randy's jaw line. Rather than follow up with other attacks, I think Ng thought it enough to just hold the shape there. Randy on the other hand does not acknowledge the palm at several points and just continues punching above, below and to the side of of Ng's position.

Hopefully we all are aware that if Sifu Ng did that side palm with intent, it would disconnect Randy's structure and forward momentum and would deny him the ability to do those little punches above, bellow and around Sifu Ng's positions.

Did Sifu Ng get it all his way? Nah. Is Sifu Ng perfect? Nah. Did Ng's chi sau session with Randy happen before the Obasi one? Apparently so. To my mind I view what Obasi did as a response to Randy's behavior with Ng and I am glad he did it and the manner in which he did it; controlled and with out causing injury.

Obasi should have said to Randy just after bear hugging Randy's head, "well Randy, that is what we call close ranged combat".

[WingChunNovice]

A headbutt is an effective weapon, proven fact.

Also why do you show Sifu Ng the respect of including a title but not Sifu Williams? Are you that familiar with him?

I seriously don't get the total lack of respect for people who created the path for us to follow regardless of who your instructor is or what style you choose to practice.

Don't judge a practitioner until you personally get some hands on with them.

Take a closer look at Shawn's wrap and you may notice a right thumb in his left eye.

/smh

[jesper]

A headbutt is an effective weapon, proven fact.
/smh

only in certain circumstances, none of which applied in this chi sao clip.

[thedreamer7]

only in certain circumstances, none of which applied in this chi sao clip.

Agreed, I have never seen it in Chi Sau before. Doesn't belong there...

[GlennR]

A headbutt is an effective weapon, proven fact.

Sure, but while i dont really care about ego driven chi-sao death matches as seen in the video, those little cheeky headbutts are a cheap shot and appear to be his only answer on more than one occasion

[WingChunNovice]

Why is a headbutt a cheap shot? They're easy to block and we learn in CRCA that they might come so there are 6 ways to stop them that we do all the time as part of regular Chee Sau.

Nothing wrong with outside the box thinking or new application and training models. I seriously don't get all the hate.

[GlennR]

Why is a headbutt a cheap shot? They're easy to block and we learn in CRCA that they might come so there are 6 ways to stop them that we do all the time as part of regular Chee Sau.

Nothing wrong with outside the box thinking or new application and training models. I seriously don't get all the hate.

And i seriously dont get why you think its "hate", its a comment.... i dont really care if you get emotionally involved in this, thats your choice

Mate, in any chisao exchange theres a headbutt opportunity most of the time.... but thats not the point of the exercise.

Sorry, but if Williams has to resort to head butts during the exchange, then in my book its because he cant control and/or strike the other guy....

[CRCAUSA]

If other WC schools don't have a headbutt that's fine with me. Maybe we are more concept based than others and that is ok also. We can incorporate most anything in our CS as long it is WC based which includes kicks, sweeps, etc. This not only allows us a large variety in our attacks but also allows much needed practice with the appropriate defenses. Even our junior students if asked not to hit his partner in the face or head can manage to comply. If the student lacks the courtesy or etiquette to comply with the request and continues with intentional contact on a regular basis then we figure he should be able to take what he dishes out and we have no problem giving it back. :)

[GlennR]

If other WC schools don't have a headbutt that's fine with me. Maybe we are more concept based than others and that is ok also. We can incorporate most anything in our CS as long it is WC based which includes kicks, sweeps, etc. This not only allows us a large variety in our attacks but also allows much needed practice with the appropriate defenses. Even our junior students if asked not to hit his partner in the face or head can manage to comply. If the student lacks the courtesy or etiquette to comply with the request and continues with intentional contact on a regular basis then we figure he should be able to take what he dishes out and we have no problem giving it back. :)

You know, i just watched that clip again and, if the exchange had just started, Williams was throwing headbutts from the start.

If thats the case, then i think youll find common etiquette in most WC schools would be not to throw headbutts.

[thedreamer7]

If other WC schools don't have a headbutt that's fine with me. Maybe we are more concept based than others and that is ok also. We can incorporate most anything in our CS as long it is WC based which includes kicks, sweeps, etc. This not only allows us a large variety in our attacks but also allows much needed practice with the appropriate defenses. Even our junior students if asked not to hit his partner in the face or head can manage to comply. If the student lacks the courtesy or etiquette to comply with the request and continues with intentional contact on a regular basis then we figure he should be able to take what he dishes out and we have no problem giving it back. :)

Chi-sau is meant to be a sensitivity exercise. Adding a head butt is dangerous and I am not sure how you could sense it:)

[Robinhood]

I used to have one of those as a child! They are a bugger to control and one day I knocked myself out due to it! :D

On topic and with regards to the youtube clip I posted, it is my understanding that the guy in yellow is Sifu Joeseph Ng. I have actually enjoyed watching clips of him chi sauing over the years. He jokes around a lot, has fun and plays rather than 'fights'.

I've also seen Sifu Ng put himself in dangerous positions and be hit and often I have seen him do this on purpose, to train what I view as techniques from biu gee. I have also seen Sifu Ng unload on someone and, yeah, I think if he exploded on Randy like I know he is capable of, a minor head twitch would be the least of Randy's medical problems.

In all honesty, I think Randy took exception to Sifu Ng's idiosyncratic style and those little inside side palms that Sifu Ng continually placed on Randy's jaw line. Rather than follow up with other attacks, I think Ng thought it enough to just hold the shape there. Randy on the other hand does not acknowledge the palm at several points and just continues punching above, below and to the side of of Ng's position.

Hopefully we all are aware that if Sifu Ng did that side palm with intent, it would disconnect Randy's structure and forward momentum and would deny him the ability to do those little punches above, bellow and around Sifu Ng's positions.

Did Sifu Ng get it all his way? Nah. Is Sifu Ng perfect? Nah. Did Ng's chi sau session with Randy happen before the Obasi one? Apparently so. To my mind I view what Obasi did as a response to Randy's behavior with Ng and I am glad he did it and the manner in which he did it; controlled and with out causing injury.

Obasi should have said to Randy just after bear hugging Randy's head, "well Randy, that is what we call close ranged combat".


I thought it might be something like that, when someone ignores they are open or hit and tries to come back with cheap shots is pretty lamb and not proper practice or anyway to act, he should acknowledge the palm strike , and taken care of that hand before continuing on, not by trying to speed up and act like it never happened by throwing a bunch of lamb strikes after the point has been made.

I think the older guy was being nice to him showing how open he was for the palm strike , but he got mad instead of being grateful, it makes more sense now.

[WingChunNovice]

Chi-sau is meant to be a sensitivity exercise. Adding a head butt is dangerous and I am not sure how you could sense it:)

It is dangerous but by adding it to CS we can learn how to avoid it.

The context of the video was "no rules" CS and Sifu Williams was put in an awkward situation by Sifu Ng's people, he did what he does. Nothing wrong with it IMO.

[wingchunIan]

Chi-sau is meant to be a sensitivity exercise. Adding a head butt is dangerous and I am not sure how you could sense it:)

Its easy to sense, if as in the clip you have contact with the arms but more importantly the head butt can only work if the centre is open. If you occupy the centre then it is like the Blackadder clip where he cant be bothered to punch baldrick and gets baldrick to run onto his fist instead.

[WingChunNovice]

..I think the older guy was being nice to him...

Sifu Williams is older actually. Clean leaving does you good. :P

[wingchunIan]

It is dangerous but by adding it to CS we can learn how to avoid it.

The context of the video was "no rules" CS and Sifu Williams was put in an awkward situation by Sifu Ng's people, he did what he does. Nothing wrong with it IMO.

Apart from the fact that on most occasions he was so far out of range for the headbutt to be effective that it was comical

[Robinhood]

Sifu Williams is older actually. Clean leaving does you good. :P

Or brill cream, gets the gray out.

[Robinhood]

Its easy to sense, if as in the clip you have contact with the arms but more importantly the head butt can only work if the centre is open. If you occupy the centre then it is like the Blackadder clip where he cant be bothered to punch baldrick and gets baldrick to run onto his fist instead.

The head butts better if the other guy is coming in not hanging back with his head turned , and the nose would be the target , not the chest .

[WingChunNovice]

Apart from the fact that on most occasions he was so far out of range for the headbutt to be effective that it was comical

The video looks to me like he had him by the back of the neck on the headbutts and was clearly controlling it. It would get kind of messy on the 1st one making contact if he didn't.

[GlennR]

It is dangerous but by adding it to CS we can learn how to avoid it.

The context of the video was "no rules" CS and Sifu Williams was put in an awkward situation by Sifu Ng's people, he did what he does. Nothing wrong with it IMO.

Well if it was no rules why so angry about face shots then?

[WingChunNovice]

Or brill cream, gets the gray out.

I could use some of that!

[WingChunNovice]

Well if it was no rules why so angry about face shots then?

I don't think anyone likes getting their face touched.

Well maybe some people do but they pay extra for that. :D

[CRCAUSA]

When your partner requests no contact to the face it would be just good manners to comply, why wouldn't you. If the contact is there on a regular basis either your partner doesn't have sufficient control of his hands to comply or he does and he simply doesn't want to comply. At that point your choice is to become a punching bag or hit him back. I don't see a problem here.:)

[wingchunIan]

The head butts better if the other guy is coming in not hanging back with his head turned , and the nose would be the target , not the chest .

Who mentioned the chest??? And actually from a fighting perspective ( not chi sao) head butts to the temple and the side of the jaw are just as if not more effective than those targetting the nose. The fact is though if the other person has their hands up and on the centre attempting to headbutt just gets you a face full of hand.

[wingchunIan]

The video looks to me like he had him by the back of the neck on the headbutts and was clearly controlling it. It would get kind of messy on the 1st one making contact if he didn't.

It doesn't matter if there is a neck grab or not if the intended recipient has their hands up and on the centre the headbutt simply powers the deliverers face into a hand coming in the other direction. Headbutts are only effective from very close range when the target's hands are down or otherwise immobilised / out of the way.

[Robinhood]

Who mentioned the chest??? And actually from a fighting perspective ( not chi sao) head butts to the temple and the side of the jaw are just as if not more effective than those targetting the nose. The fact is though if the other person has their hands up and on the centre attempting to headbutt just gets you a face full of hand.


Yes those would be effective if hit right, I was address more of a position that was not easy to move or retreat from, the side hit leaves more room for escape by simply dropping the head, like he seemed to be doing.

Anybody have the audio of this ?, that might shed more light on the problem .

[CRCAUSA]

I just took another close look at the video as everyone seems to be focusing on the headbutt. On most of them RW is either controlling the centerline, it is open or his partners hands are low. Either way it is a useful tool to use in CS and CRCA uses it a lot. While our drills teach the technique CS and sparring actually allow us to use it with a noncompliant partner. Good training in our book.:)

[Paddington]

A headbutt is an effective weapon, proven fact.


Yeah, within what you would call "close ranged combat" yes. But this was meant to be a chi sau session?



Also why do you show Sifu Ng the respect of including a title but not Sifu Williams? Are you that familiar with him?

I seriously don't get the total lack of respect for people who created the path for us to follow regardless of who your instructor is or what style you choose to practice.


Well, tbh, looking at Randy's behaviour, what he says and how he acts in these vids, I have to say that it is not indicative of what I would call a Sifu. Further, having watched his instructional vids and having read his books, well, I still feel that he is lacking. That said, it is primarily his behaviour that, for me at least, inclines me to not refer to him with the Sifu title in tow.



Take a closer look at Shawn's wrap and you may notice a right thumb in his left eye.


Yes, I noted that myself. Thing is many of these techniques are last ditch desperation techniques. They are not really techniques to come out in chi sau. He only does them because he lacks the ability and skill to use the more 'standard' toolsets available from wing chun, when chi sauing.

Randy uses a lot of strength and speed in his wing chun. I believe he thinks himself of a bigger physical stature than he actually is and this, I believe, effects the way he does wing chun. Small man complex alpha male, but really a beta, syndrome?

[GlennR]

Yeah, within what you would call "close ranged combat" yes. But this was meant to be a chi sau session?

Exactly, in my book mild slaps to the haed are more acceptable than head butts in the situation shown



Well, tbh, looking at Randy's behaviour, what he says and how he acts in these vids, I have to say that it is not indicative of what I would call a Sifu. Further, having watched his instructional vids and having read his books, well, I still feel that he is lacking. That said, it is primarily his behaviour that, for me at least, inclines me to not refer to him with the Sifu title in tow.


Behaviour aside, you have no reason to call him sifu as you aren't his student.
His behaviour confirms that call



Yes, I noted that myself. Thing is many of these techniques are last ditch desperation techniques.

That was my call earlier in the thread.


They are not really techniques to come out in chi sau. He only does them because he lacks the ability and skill to use the more 'standard' toolsets available from wing chun, when chi sauing.


I agree again


Randy uses a lot of strength and speed in his wing chun. I believe he thinks himself of a bigger physical stature than he actually is and this, I believe, effects the way he does wing chun. Small man complex alpha male, but really a beta, syndrome?

Im not going to comment on how he thinks but IMO its pretty low skill chi-sao in general

[Paddington]

Bloody hell Glenn. I better stop posting because we are starting to agree too much! You know, having watched that vid on slow motion, I just don't understand Randy's objections to the face contact. Apart from the last one (which was more to the neck?), they all seem perfectly controlled. A couple of them look more like a caressing, cupping of Randy's face.

[GlennR]

Bloody hell Glenn. I better stop posting because we are starting to agree too much! You know, having watched that vid on slow motion, I just don't understand Randy's objections to the face contact. Apart from the last one (which was more to the neck?), they all seem perfectly controlled. A couple of them look more like a caressing, cupping of Randy's face.

Yeh careful, i dont like agreeing with anyone ;)

Basically, im at one with you IMO of the video.

To be honest, what happened is no big deal, but with his students carry on and his challenge to Laroux (who is a knob to be honest) i just think his actions need to be shown for what they are.
That is a "name" in WC with , what appear to be, ego issues and more worried about defending his legacy than an honest exhange between two practitioners of WC.

Personally, if i was the chap rolling with him i wouldnt have been so obliging

[CRCAVA]

I understand that these forums are to discuss and even argue about WC and other martial arts. But to question a persons character or their organization? I think it's a little out of line and irrelevant. To help the people on this forum that have never met or trained with Sifu Randy Williams, here is a testimonial:
"I started training with Sifu Williams at age 7 in WC in Virginia. He was always willing to take time out of a hard core class to help me out as a kid and never let me fall behind in class. As years went on he invited me to his home to train, hang out, have BBQ's etc... He allows me to stay at his home at no charge to train. He even goes as far as to have my family come stay at his home while I train. Now as an adult I teach my own CRCA WC classes and he treats all my students and friends the same way he treats me... Like family. Sifu Williams is not only an amazing martial artist that has contributed to the WC community for over 40 years, he is a rare kind of man that gives of himself in everyday he can to see the works around him grow. To make this long story short, if you want to argue about technique that is fine, everyone has a opinion. But when it comes to Sifu Williams as an instructor and person he is nothing short of amazing... Your opinions are hollow if the only knowledge you have of Randy is via video."

[WingChunNovice]

I understand that these forums are to discuss and even argue about WC and other martial arts. But to question a persons character or their organization? I think it's a little out of line and irrelevant. To help the people on this forum that have never met or trained with Sifu Randy Williams, here is a testimonial:
"I started training with Sifu Williams at age 7 in WC in Virginia. He was always willing to take time out of a hard core class to help me out as a kid and never let me fall behind in class. As years went on he invited me to his home to train, hang out, have BBQ's etc... He allows me to stay at his home at no charge to train. He even goes as far as to have my family come stay at his home while I train. Now as an adult I teach my own CRCA WC classes and he treats all my students and friends the same way he treats me... Like family. Sifu Williams is not only an amazing martial artist that has contributed to the WC community for over 40 years, he is a rare kind of man that gives of himself in everyday he can to see the works around him grow. To make this long story short, if you want to argue about technique that is fine, everyone has a opinion. But when it comes to Sifu Williams as an instructor and person he is nothing short of amazing... Your opinions are hollow if the only knowledge you have of Randy is via video."

This has been my experience with him as well. One of the most open and genuine good people you could ever meet.

[Paddington]

I understand that these forums are to discuss and even argue about WC and other martial arts. But to question a persons character or their organization?

Oh I don't know, I guess it is because I train within the Ip Man school of thought where there is an insistence on those pesky codes of conduct. Granted, we don't follow the one about alcohol as, well, if opium is acceptable.... :D

I do get the feeling that we are not seeing the whole picture here and it would be interesting to see some of the other vids from that conference.

[CRCAUSA]

After being on this forum for a while I really don't know why the CRCAers are up in arms about RW being personally attacked. He shares good company as this same forum called the Gracies washed up only being able to use their name to make money, I seem to remember Leung Ting being called a "clown" by these same guys and we all know the things they said about Emin. Obviously respect for their seniors is left out of their schools tenants and that's ok with me. Looks like RW has some pretty good company. As for CS if they have lots of rules that's fine with me also. In CRCA as long at it's WC we are able to practice all WC techinques and I like that better. :)

[Paddington]

After being on this forum for a while I really don't know why the CRCAers are up in arms about RW being personally attacked. He shares good company as this same forum called the Gracies washed up only being able to use their name to make money, I seem to remember Leung Ting being called a "clown" by these same guys and we all know the things they said about Emin. Obviously respect for their seniors is left out of their schools tenants and that's ok with me. Looks like RW has some pretty good company. As for CS if they have lots of rules that's fine with me also. In CRCA as long at it's WC we are able to practice all WC techinques and I like that better. :)

Because, yeah, most of us are actually the same person and it is a complete illusion that this forum has many posters.

[CRCAUSA]

I must have missed where you came to defend any of their reputations.:)

[Paddington]

My point is you cannot posit the entire forum as a single 'controlling mind' entity. For the most part we are individuals posting and each post is representative of our singular beliefs and feelings.

If Randy wants to come here and defend himself, I would be more than happy to take the time to read/hear his side of the story.

[CRCAUSA]

RW doesn't need to defend himself against unknown guys behind their keyboards. I'm ok with the fact that many of the posters here are in schools that have no tenants that respect their seniors. You sure don't see CRCA members launching personal attacks against anyone in any martial art system, RW wouldn't allow it.:)

[Robinhood]

This has been my experience with him as well. One of the most open and genuine good people you could ever meet.

These 2 guys do bring up very valid points, something is a muss , maybe since you know Randy ,you could ask him why he acted the way he did, it does seem odd for a friendly chi Sao exchange , the other guy wasn't getting upset.

[wingchunIan]

RW doesn't need to defend himself against unknown guys behind their keyboards. I'm ok with the fact that many of the posters here are in schools that have no tenants that respect their seniors. You sure don't see CRCA members launching personal attacks against anyone in any martial art system, RW wouldn't allow it.:)

Most schools don't have tenants full stop, a tenant is someone who pays rent to a landlord to live somewhere. I believe the word you are somewhat hopelessly missing is
Tenet: A principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy

The majority of posters on here (although certainly not all, and some demonstrate the opposite position) have respect for senior and for that matter junior practitioners, however this is a forum and material is posted for comment and discussion. Comments on clips are mostly made (again there are some who cannot avoid politics and bias) in isolation from the reputation of the person or persons in the clip and are based upon the material presented.
If you don't like the comments, you can respond or you can take your ball and go home i.e leave the forum, its completely your choice.

[CRCAUSA]

It is my understanding that RW was lured into a room for purposes other than CS which in my opinion was not very ethical right off the bat. Once there while being filmed he was asked to do CS with the other Sifu and at that point he felt he could not back down gracefully. Had he been told of what they had in mind he would not have agreed to it in the first place. The only thing he asked was there be no contact to the face. For whatever reason his partner decided to not comply with his request. In the full video which is about 10 minutes long his partner hit him repeatedly and RW asked numerous times he not do that. All this time RW had not touched his partners face even though he could have at many points in the CS. At a certain point RW decided to no longer take the hits and returned them. When we CS in CRCA we comply with our partners requests as it would show a complete lack of respect not to. As for the headbutt comments we in CRCA are allowed to do ALL WC techniques that are contained within the system so this was nothing out of the ordinary for us. In CRCA we also spar and are allowed to use these same techniques in sparring. Without being able to do this I'm not sure how one would practice these techniques against a noncompliant partner.:)

[Robinhood]

It is my understanding that RW was lured into a room for purposes other than CS which in my opinion was not very ethical right off the bat. Once there while being filmed he was asked to do CS with the other Sifu and at that point he felt he could not back down gracefully. Had he been told of what they had in mind he would not have agreed to it in the first place. The only thing he asked was there be no contact to the face. For whatever reason his partner decided to not comply with his request. In the full video which is about 10 minutes long his partner hit him repeatedly and RW asked numerous times he not do that. All this time RW had not touched his partners face even though he could have at many points in the CS. At a certain point RW decided to no longer take the hits and returned them. When we CS in CRCA we comply with our partners requests as it would show a complete lack of respect not to. As for the headbutt comments we in CRCA are allowed to do ALL WC techniques that are contained within the system so this was nothing out of the ordinary for us. In CRCA we also spar and are allowed to use these same techniques in sparring. Without being able to do this I'm not sure how one would practice these techniques against a noncompliant partner.:)


I don't see the other guy striking the face, only his hand stopping on his face or next to it, maybe Randy is afraid of germs or something , that still does not give him good enough reason to act that way he did.

Usually this kind of Conduct is not becoming of someone with high skill or a good teacher. If you have to hit the other guy to make your point then your skill is questionable.


It does look like Randy is in more control of the other guy, as far as balance is concerned , but all the flowery after shots is not friendly chi sao.

[Paddington]

Well, there is obviously a lot more to this tale than has come to light. Hopefully soon someone will shed some more light on it.

[WingChunNovice]

It's tough to know how you would act until you are put in a situation. The circumstances for that CS weren't on the up and up from the start. I have heard the same thing as CRCAUSA regarding the event.

One of Mr. Ng's students who walks by the camera rolls his eyes almost to say "this isn't going as planned." What was the plan in fact? But its all speculation for any of us who were not there, which I am guessing is everyone on this thread.

It must be difficult being a high profile martial artist. Imagine if you had to read trash talking about you every day. Clearly that would suck.

MS
- my other car is the tardis.

[thedreamer7]

It is my understanding that RW was lured into a room for purposes other than CS which in my opinion was not very ethical right off the bat. Once there while being filmed he was asked to do CS with the other Sifu and at that point he felt he could not back down gracefully. Had he been told of what they had in mind he would not have agreed to it in the first place. The only thing he asked was there be no contact to the face. For whatever reason his partner decided to not comply with his request. In the full video which is about 10 minutes long his partner hit him repeatedly and RW asked numerous times he not do that. All this time RW had not touched his partners face even though he could have at many points in the CS. At a certain point RW decided to no longer take the hits and returned them. When we CS in CRCA we comply with our partners requests as it would show a complete lack of respect not to. As for the headbutt comments we in CRCA are allowed to do ALL WC techniques that are contained within the system so this was nothing out of the ordinary for us. In CRCA we also spar and are allowed to use these same techniques in sparring. Without being able to do this I'm not sure how one would practice these techniques against a noncompliant partner.:)

RW was not able to cope in the situation. He should of either walked away or use chi sau in a professional manner. The head butt was dangerous and person he was with was not CRCA, so it was wrong and could have ended up badly. Bottom line, talk is cheap and the fact is you feel you need to justify RWs actions, whereas the clip is plain and clear for all of us to see.

[phoenixdog]

Obasi's hands were down by his side most of the exhange with Botezpe, not much more you can say about that clip. Hands up,elbows in with the other two.

[CRCAUSA]

I find it interesting you don't have a problem with the dishonest way RW was lured into this event or the lack of respect given to his request for no contact to the face which was clearly ignored. You give him no credit for continuing not striking his partner while his partner was clearly doing that to him. Your problem is at some point RW began giving back that which had been receiving and he was using headbutts in a CS match with no rules. Had they been honest with him and honored his reasonable request things would have been much different. RW acted most reasonably given the circumstances in my opinion so I guess we will just agree to disagree on this subject.
:)

[thedreamer7]

I find it interesting you don't have a problem with the dishonest way RW was lured into this event or the lack of respect given to his request for no contact to the face which was clearly ignored. You give him no credit for continuing not striking his partner while his partner was clearly doing that to him. Your problem is at some point RW began giving back that which had been receiving and he was using headbutts in a CS match with no rules. Had they been honest with him and honored his reasonable request things would have been much different. RW acted most reasonably given the circumstances in my opinion so I guess we will just agree to disagree on this subject.
:)

I don't see any real hard strikes to the face. However if he was tricked into Chi-Sau and put on camera without warning, then I see where your coming from.

I have been in similar situations have either walked away or just roll hands.

[GlennR]

RW doesn't need to defend himself against unknown guys behind their keyboards. I'm ok with the fact that many of the posters here are in schools that have no tenants that respect their seniors. You sure don't see CRCA members launching personal attacks against anyone in any martial art system, RW wouldn't allow it.:)

Mate, since when is RW my senior? Or anyone elses here for that matter??

Theres people on this forum that have been doing WC longer than him, and some with a higher level of skill s,o why should we withhold our opinions of a video thats put up where he seems to be, to be honest, a little bit precious.

How about you RW guys get over yourself a bit and understand that just because someone is well know, as is RW, it doesnt mean he is immune to criticism

[CRCAUSA]

RW insists that we show courtesy to all other martial artists whatever style they practice. If your school doesn't do that it's okay with me. Still there is little excuse for the dishonesty surrounding this event.:)

[jimhalliwell]

Mate, since when is RW my senior? Or anyone elses here for that matter??

Theres people on this forum that have been doing WC longer than him, and some with a higher level of skill s,o why should we withhold our opinions of a video thats put up where he seems to be, to be honest, a little bit precious.

How about you RW guys get over yourself a bit and understand that just because someone is well know, as is RW, it doesnt mean he is immune to criticism

Have to agree with Glenn Randy my senior lmao!

[Paddington]

I find it interesting you don't have a problem with the dishonest way RW was lured into this event or the lack of respect given to his request for no contact to the face which was clearly ignored. You give him no credit for continuing not striking his partner while his partner was clearly doing that to him. Your problem is at some point RW began giving back that which had been receiving and he was using headbutts in a CS match with no rules. Had they been honest with him and honored his reasonable request things would have been much different. RW acted most reasonably given the circumstances in my opinion so I guess we will just agree to disagree on this subject.
:)

There has been no evidence that Randy was lured anywhere. If you have evidence to the contrary, please show us.

[CRCAUSA]

I've given you the background. If you chose not to believe it that's fine with me.:)

[WingChunNovice]

RW has over 42 years in Wing Chun ... so if he isn't your senior(s) when did you start training?

What have you contributed to your respective system of Wing Chun?

How do you continue to perpetuate your respective system of Wing Chun?

How do you define a "senior"?

All honest questions, honest answers based in fact appreciated.

[Sihing73]

RW has over 42 years in Wing Chun ... so if he isn't your senior(s) when did you start training?

What have you contributed to your respective system of Wing Chun?

How do you continue to perpetuate your respective system of Wing Chun?

How do you define a "senior"?

All honest questions, honest answers based in fact appreciated.

Hello,

In answer to your questions the simplest answer would be that one, within the same lineage who started before you is your senior. Someone training in another lineage would not be your senior as you would not descend from the same teacher/line.

While is is fine to respect those who have trained hard and "contributed" to their version of the system, this does not mean that everyone who practices that particular system would share the same approach not even recognize the same people as having accomplished something.

I think the issue you guys, CRCA, have is that others have taken issue with some videos put up showing your systems leader. Unfortunately that is a fact of life and it really would serve you all better to just accept that not everyone will see things the way you do and move on to other things.

Just my opinion for whatever it may be worth.

[Robinhood]

RW insists that we show courtesy to all other martial artists whatever style they practice. If your school doesn't do that it's okay with me. Still there is little excuse for the dishonesty surrounding this event.:)


The clip clearly doesn't show him taking his own advise. Courtesy ?....???

[Robinhood]

Hello,

In answer to your questions the simplest answer would be that one, within the same lineage who started before you is your senior. Someone training in another lineage would not be your senior as you would not descend from the same teacher/line.

While is is fine to respect those who have trained hard and "contributed" to their version of the system, this does not mean that everyone who practices that particular system would share the same approach not even recognize the same people as having accomplished something.

I think the issue you guys, CRCA, have is that others have taken issue with some videos put up showing your systems leader. Unfortunately that is a fact of life and it really would serve you all better to just accept that not everyone will see things the way you do and move on to other things.
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Just my opinion for whatever it may be worth.

Good post, that is what I was going to say also.

Same lineage, started before you, nothing to do with age or name affiliation .

He might be a senior citizen, but that is another path.

[CRCAUSA]

After being on this forum for a while now I still say the CRCAers are taking it too seriously. As I said before this same forum personally trashed the Gracie family saying they were washed up and could only make money on their name, Leung Ting was a "clown" and Emin was, well you know that got really ugly. I say RW is in good company. Like the others trashed on this forum he contributed to the martial arts and he should be proud of that. We also strongly suspect those doing the most criticizing behind their keyboards would not have a third the skill nor have contributed a tenth as much as those they trashed. I agree it's time to move on.:)

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=CRCAVA;1216938] Like family. Sifu Williams is not only an amazing martial artist that has contributed to the WC community for over 40 years,

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40 years!!??Before 1973????

[Robinhood]

After being on this forum for a while now I still say the CRCAers are taking it too seriously. As I said before this same forum personally trashed the Gracie family saying they were washed up and could only make money on their name, Leung Ting was a "clown" and Emin was, well you know that got really ugly. I say RW is in good company. Like the others trashed on this forum he contributed to the martial arts and he should be proud of that. We also strongly suspect those doing the most criticizing behind their keyboards would not have a third the skill nor have contributed a tenth as much as those they trashed. I agree it's time to move on.:)


Isn't lung ting still a clown?

Nobody's trashing RW, they are just reading his video as shown.

[Wayfaring]

After being on this forum for a while now I still say the CRCAers are taking it too seriously. As I said before this same forum personally trashed the Gracie family saying they were washed up and could only make money on their name, Leung Ting was a "clown" and Emin was, well you know that got really ugly. I say RW is in good company. Like the others trashed on this forum he contributed to the martial arts and he should be proud of that. We also strongly suspect those doing the most criticizing behind their keyboards would not have a third the skill nor have contributed a tenth as much as those they trashed. I agree it's time to move on.:)

yes, overreacting. many of those things have some truth to it.

the gracies are making money on their name. their name was built in a fighting organization none of them currently fight in. and of all the world titles in BJJ and MMA, who is there that has the last name Gracie that's won them? Roger (whose father isn't named Gracie but Oswaldo Alves) in BJJ. I think that's it currently. Rickson won a MMA tourney in the past.

Leung Ting - so what are you supposed to call a guy that gives himself the title "Master of Almightiness" or whatever his title is he gave himself?

Emin - because Emin has such a pristine history of respecting "seniors". yes I went there. what's wrong with people talking about him training hard except when the kyokushin visit?

Of course it is true in an internet age that reality is you have people working on things in the public eye and others who you may not know their background critiquing them.

there's "respect". and there's "keeping it real". should have both, but if you have to lose one, in a MARTIAL ART, losing "keeping it real" is untenable. It leads to social clubs calling themselves martial arts clubs, sitting aroung *****ing at one another like little old ladies, inventing new compliant one-step punch responses, putting them on youtube with tough sounding music, and contributing to the stupidity and laziness of a younger generation.

if we do that with WCK I hope all the younger generation learns MMA, kicks our @$$, and WCK dies out into the oblivion of "meh" ness that is inevitable down the path of a bunch of little old lady like "masters" who sit around *****ing at each other in their easy chairs and don't keep it real.

And, no, I am not singling out one particular person or lineage in WCK that does this, for all you white knights out there.

[Frost]

yes, overreacting. many of those things have some truth to it.

the gracies are making money on their name. their name was built in a fighting organization none of them currently fight in. and of all the world titles in BJJ and MMA, who is there that has the last name Gracie that's won them? Roger (whose father isn't named Gracie but Oswaldo Alves) in BJJ. I think that's it currently. Rickson won a MMA tourney in the past.

Leung Ting - so what are you supposed to call a guy that gives himself the title "Master of Almightiness" or whatever his title is he gave himself?

Emin - because Emin has such a pristine history of respecting "seniors". yes I went there. what's wrong with people talking about him training hard except when the kyokushin visit?

Of course it is true in an internet age that reality is you have people working on things in the public eye and others who you may not know their background critiquing them.

there's "respect". and there's "keeping it real". should have both, but if you have to lose one, in a MARTIAL ART, losing "keeping it real" is untenable. It leads to social clubs calling themselves martial arts clubs, sitting aroung *****ing at one another like little old ladies, inventing new compliant one-step punch responses, putting them on youtube with tough sounding music, and contributing to the stupidity and laziness of a younger generation.

if we do that with WCK I hope all the younger generation learns MMA, kicks our @$$, and WCK dies out into the oblivion of "meh" ness that is inevitable down the path of a bunch of little old lady like "masters" who sit around *****ing at each other in their easy chairs and don't keep it real.

And, no, I am not singling out one particular person or lineage in WCK that does this, for all you white knights out there.

to be fair their name was also build on fighting MMA in pride (which a lot of them did which a lot of them did Renzo, Ralph Ryan, Royce, Royler) and in training BJJ champions and MMA fighters : guys like almedia, the Serra brothers , GSP, Frankie edgar shaun alveres etal the list of guys they have trained is extensive
As for roger being the only grappler ever to win a world title and Rickson winning some MMA comp back in the day, this is slightly missleading and you know it
Royler owed ADCC for years and probably still has the top 2 or 3 all time record there
Kyra Gracie is 4 times world champion and three times ADCC champion
rickson won every BJJ national comp he ever entered back when their weren’t world titles and winning the nationals meant beating the best in the world,
Renzo also won ADCC twice
Also roger is a Gracie by blood (his mum is a Gracie and its not uncommon for Brazilians to take either surname, mother or father as there's)
Rolles Graice is active in MMA with 8 wins and 1 loss
Renzo also trained the new york pitbulls who took the team title in a MMA promotion and so on

Whilst I agree with a lot of what you say lumping the gracies in with emin and Tingi(apart from Ronion) is a bit harsh on them lol