Bench press, flys, or neither?

[Raipizo]

I've read before from Scooby (scoobys workshop) that flys are better for building the chest. I can see where he comes from, better isolation and more movement. But for the martial arts I would think the bench press to be better seeing as it is somewhat like throwing a punch. Or is there another chest exercise you fellows use that you find superior to both of these? I just find the bench press a higher carry over to whatever do in the practical world, I mean unless you smash peoples heads like grapes in between your fists, then maybe flys are more practical for you.

[bawang]

bench press light to moderate weight with maximum speed

[Frost]

i actually have no idea what you are asking: best for building the chest, best for carryover to what? punching, fighting?????????

[Kevin73]

Yes, using the flye movement can improve your chest muscles. But, if you are training for your martial art think about the other support muscles that are used in your technique.

Time would be better spent doing either a bench press or dips to also work the supporting muscles that are also used in punching.

If you have more time, it wouldn't hurt to finish off with some flyes. But again, I wouldn't concentrate the most effort on that exercise.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, and no.
The chest muscles work in TWO ways, to push away and to "pull" across, so to get maximum development you have to do exercises that do those plane of motions.
The issue is not that simple though because, the development of the chest is proportionate to how MUCH weight you use and what you are going for ( size, strength, both, etc).
IN general:
The more weight you can move ( pushing execises) the more mass you can build with proper diet.
That said, there is a place for using an exercise that requires less weight BUT more stablizers, such as using DB over barbells.
The thing is that it is NOT an either/or thing.
You do both.
Low rep and high weight for strength with a barbell ( bench press for example)
Moderate weight and moderate reps for mass ( bench or incline with DB)
Low weight and high reps for endurance ( flyes with DB).

[Brule]

Weight training makes you slow and no benefit to a martial artist. :eek:

[Bernard]

Weight training makes you slow and no benefit to a martial artist. :eek:

:mad: Oh no you didn't!!! ;)

[Raipizo]

i actually have no idea what you are asking: best for building the chest, best for carryover to what? punching, fighting?????????

Whats's better for martial arts, might have worded it weird or not been specific.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Whats's better for martial arts, might have worded it weird or not been specific.

Explosive strength and "raw" strength with minimal weight gain ( Unless you do need to put some weight of course).

[18elders]

here is a drill for push up to help develop explosiveness.

you need two chairs without arms and not on any wheels. the small metal ones are good. place them just on the outside of your arms width you will use for a push up.
get in push up position, have someone lift and hold your feet up at their arms length. now do a push up and land on the chairs with your hands, then push off and back to the ground. push up and land back on chairs etc.

have fun.

[JamesC]

Isolation movements are rarely useful for anything other than rehab, bodybuilding a particular area, or to strengthen a weak area for a compound movement.

Although I am no longer into the whole powerlifting thing like I used to be, the 4 big compound lifts still make the most sense in my mind. Bench press, overhead press, deadlift, and squats.

Why? Because they are compound movements using the largest muscle groups in the body and they teach you to use your entire body for movement. There's a reason all the big sports program utilize these exercises.

With that said, why not do both? See what you like. There's nothing that says you can't bench press AND do flyes. Or squat AND do lunges. Most likely, one is going to benefit the other.

I always did curls no matter what. Gotta look good naked. :D

[Frost]

Whats's better for martial arts, might have worded it weird or not been specific.

bench press.....flys have no real use form a martial point of view

[SevenStar]

I would think the bench press to be better seeing as it is somewhat like throwing a punch.

Not really. You don't need your pecs to throw a punch. Think about the mechanics of a punch. Great for grappling though.

[Raipizo]

The bench press works the arms also though where as a fly doesn't or not as much.

[BlackEChan]

I think pec muscles don't pay that much of a roll when it comes to martial arts. But when it comes to Flies vs. Chest Press, you have to turn to the hodgetwins!:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpyQOC5tyk4

On the other hand, Elliot Hulse Claims that it's not the exercise that's messed up, it's YOU! Chest Press vs. Flies, most people would agree that chest press would bring more mass than flies, so it depends on what you want(mass or shape).

In the end, it's all about your genes and how well you'll respond to either one.

[GoldenBrain]

Work them both, plus a whole lot more. Throughout the week I try to work every muscle group if possible. Also, remember that the body will adapt very quickly so if your workout is the same day after day then you'll plateau really quickly. Try to take yourself out of your comfort zone as often as possible and very the workout by introducing new exercises and different rep ranges.

I wouldn't try to bulk up to much since your after a program that fits well with martial arts but that doesn't mean you should forgo power lifting. Just make the power lifting a smaller part of your program and concentrate more on lighter weight and high reps which build more endurance. Weightlifting shouldn't be the only thing you do for strength training either. Body weight exercises like pushups and pull-ups are great.

Here's a few pushup tips. I like to very the leg height in both directions in order to work incline and decline pushups. One of my pushup workouts is to lay a heavy bag on the ground and place my feet on it and hands/knuckles on the ground, do a bunch of reps and then switch so my feet are on the ground and hands are on the bag. Also I will do pushups at the end of the heavy bag by placing one hand on the bag and one on the ground and launch from one side to the other and each time going down as far as possible. It's a lot like 18elders described but instead of going straight up I am going from each side of the bag to the other.

[SevenStar]

The bench press works the arms also though where as a fly doesn't or not as much.

The triceps are a minor muscle worked, yes. Still not applicable to a punch.

[SevenStar]

Work them both, plus a whole lot more. Throughout the week I try to work every muscle group if possible. Also, remember that the body will adapt very quickly so if your workout is the same day after day then you'll plateau really quickly. Try to take yourself out of your comfort zone as often as possible and very the workout by introducing new exercises and different rep ranges.

Depending on his goals, he may opt to keep the same exercises, but periodize his training. If I want a higher bench weight, flies are a great supplementary movement, but it would be counterproductive to forego the bench for flies, simply for the sake of varying the workout.

I wouldn't try to bulk up to much since your after a program that fits well with martial arts[/quote]

Why do people assume bulking doesn't fit with ma? A bodybuilding, isolation style workout doesn't fit, but that's not the only way to get big. And as a big guy, I can say first hand that big doesn't necessarily equal slow.

[/QUOTE]

[viper]

Consider a unilateral dumbbell press. Using only one arm at a time stimulates anti rotation core activity and mimics the arm punching action.

[SevenStar]

Still more akin to a one arm push up. You'd get more benefit actually punching.

[GoldenBrain]

Depending on his goals, he may opt to keep the same exercises, but periodize his training. If I want a higher bench weight, flies are a great supplementary movement, but it would be counterproductive to forego the bench for flies, simply for the sake of varying the workout.

I wouldn't try to bulk up to much since your after a program that fits well with martial arts

Why do people assume bulking doesn't fit with ma? A bodybuilding, isolation style workout doesn't fit, but that's not the only way to get big. And as a big guy, I can say first hand that big doesn't necessarily equal slow.

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]


I agree with you 100 percent. When I said don't bulk up to much I was thinking about bodybuilding, isolation style as you put it. I prolly should have explained it better. I know some big scary individuals who can move surprisingly fast. Overall bulk is okay, grotesquely puffed up muscles to where you can't even scratch your own head is bad.

[IronFist]

If you do flies, stay away from fly machines, sometimes also called "pec deck."

And probably don't even do flies at all. Just do bench press or flat DB press (which is basically bench press with dumbbells).

[IronFist]

The triceps are a minor muscle worked, yes. Still not applicable to a punch.

Um the triceps are very applicable to a punch.

Assuming you have the proper mechanics of a punch, of course.

[Raipizo]

Yeah I figure a dumbbell press would be even better than a barbell press, more stabilizer muscles used.

[bawang]

Yeah I figure a dumbbell press would be even better than a barbell press, more stabilizer muscles used.
you cant do dumbell press safely with maximum speed.


get on a bench, use just the bar or with 25s, press it as fast as you can with maximum speed for 3 reps 6 sets. your punching power will improve after one workout.

[IronFist]

Yeah I figure a dumbbell press would be even better than a barbell press, more stabilizer muscles used.

Yeah. The weights don't quite transfer over exactly, either. For example, if you can bench press 200 pounds, don't expect to be able to do DB presses with 100 pound dumbbells even though the total weight would be the same.

It will be a lot less with DBs than bench. Probably around 30% less. So a 135lb bench press would translate to about 95 pounds (total) on dumbbells so that's like 45s or 50s. I just made up that 30% figure, btw, but it's always less than you think it will be with dumbbells.

And if you get used to DB press and then decide to try benching one day it will feel weird because the motion is different.

[Frost]

Yeah I figure a dumbbell press would be even better than a barbell press, more stabilizer muscles used.

stabilisers muscles are also load dependent so the more weight that comes into play the more stabilizing muscles are used
people tend to forget that grappling arts are strength, strength/speed arts, and striking arts much more speed/strength, there is no need to lift heavy or to even really lift if you are doing a striking only art, and if it’s a grappling art or MMA you are doing I would focus much more on the pulling muscles so deadlifts, rows, chin ups etc bench whilst a good movement shouldn’t really do your number one choice

[SevenStar]

Um the triceps are very applicable to a punch.

Assuming you have the proper mechanics of a punch, of course.

No, i'm saying his exercise is still not applicable to a punch. If my goal is to improve punching power, that's a bad way to do it.

[IronFist]

No, i'm saying his exercise is still not applicable to a punch. If my goal is to improve punching power, that's a bad way to do it.

If my goal was to improve punching power I'd get really strong at squat, deadlift, and bench press so that my muscles are able to generate a lot of power, and also make sure my punching form and technique are good.

But I see what you're saying.

[Raipizo]

Well thanks for all the replies :D. I'll probably stick with bench and dumbbell press as it's the general idea that that's more beneficial than flies, along with doing the basics, dips, pull-ups push-ups etc. Also bawang, for the power you were saying to press fast, how fast would you say? And with how much? About 40% max?

[Frost]

If my goal was to improve punching power I'd get really strong at squat, deadlift, and bench press so that my muscles are able to generate a lot of power, and also make sure my punching form and technique are good.

But I see what you're saying.

why would you need to bench squat and deadlift to punch when the maximum weight you will be moving is about 16oz??
Come to think of it why do you need to generate a lot of power in a vertical, static line (squat and deadlift) and hold your core muscles statically when the power for a punch comes from powerful rotation at the core with a split stance and foward not upwards momentum?

[Frost]

Well thanks for all the replies :D. I'll probably stick with bench and dumbbell press as it's the general idea that that's more beneficial than flies, along with doing the basics, dips, pull-ups push-ups etc. Also bawang, for the power you were saying to press fast, how fast would you say? And with how much? About 40% max?
Bawang is on a west side trip i think the below is west side template for explosive bench:)
firstly remember its not fast its explosive, ie throw it up:
Typically that for a raw lifter is 55-65% of your raw i rep max, best way to do it is to wave, so week 1 55% 8 sets of 3 reps, 1 min rest between each set
week 2 60% for 3 reps 8 sets 1 min rest
week 3 65% for 3 reps 8 sets 1 min rest
week 4 start over again with the same weight as in week 1, there is no need to recalculate your figures

[bawang]

Bawang is on a west side trip i think the below is west side template for explosive bench:)
firstly remember its not fast its explosive, ie throw it up:
Typically that for a raw lifter is 55-65% of your raw i rep max, best way to do it is to wave, so week 1 55% 8 sets of 3 reps, 1 min rest between each set
week 2 60% for 3 reps 8 sets 1 min rest
week 3 65% for 3 reps 8 sets 1 min rest
week 4 start over again with the same weight as in week 1, there is no need to recalculate your figures

6 sets for drug free lifters

[sanjuro_ronin]

Everything is relative.
To improve punching power you need to have good form/technique so that your whole body weight is behind the punch and it is explosive and you need to have good follow-through and that comes from hitting the bag and pads.
That said you also need strong muscles in your WHOLE body and as such, a good strength training regime will enable your body to have the strength to punch correctly and with impact.

[Frost]

Everything is relative.
To improve punching power you need to have good form/technique so that your whole body weight is behind the punch and it is explosive and you need to have good follow-through and that comes from hitting the bag and pads.
That said you also need strong muscles in your WHOLE body and as such, a good strength training regime will enable your body to have the strength to punch correctly and with impact.

yep but striking is such a speed strength event i would play devils advocate and say if you did press ups, core work, medicine balls throws and hit the bag you dont need to lift weights as well its just taking time away from skill work

[sanjuro_ronin]

yep but striking is such a speed strength event i would play devils advocate and say if you did press ups, core work, medicine balls throws and hit the bag you dont need to lift weights as well its just taking time away from skill work

Oh for sure, many a great fighter has developed KO power with NO weights BUT, as you know, punching power is something that you are born with.
Sure you can always develop it to it's fullest extent BUT if you are not born with it you will always be at a disadvantage to someone that was born with it and does also train.
The crucial element is transference of impact force, all the strength and speed and weight in the world means very little if you can transfer it to the target and do enough damage to compromise it.
And that, in my view, comes from bag and pad work ( and sparring of course).
That said, strength training will give your muscles the strength they need for the task being done.
It must be made clear that a good punch is a combination of gross and fine motor skills and as such, never should ST take priority over training that actual technique.
ST is, for a MA, supplementary work.

[SevenStar]

why would you need to bench squat and deadlift to punch when the maximum weight you will be moving is about 16oz??
Come to think of it why do you need to generate a lot of power in a vertical, static line (squat and deadlift) and hold your core muscles statically when the power for a punch comes from powerful rotation at the core with a split stance and foward not upwards momentum?

I wouldn't worry about bench press, but legs, shoulders and explosive power are components of a good punch. some of the most explosive athletes in the world are powerlifters. from that perspective, the explosive power going into the punch is developed through motions like the deadlift, which works every muscle in the body.

it's also no secret that punching begins with connection to the ground. driving power with the legs. the stronger your legs are, generally the more power your punches can carry.

[SevenStar]

If my goal was to improve punching power I'd get really strong at squat, deadlift, and bench press so that my muscles are able to generate a lot of power, and also make sure my punching form and technique are good.

But I see what you're saying.

I agree, but I'd sub the bench press with the push press.

[SevenStar]

yep but striking is such a speed strength event i would play devils advocate and say if you did press ups, core work, medicine balls throws and hit the bag you dont need to lift weights as well its just taking time away from skill work

looking at it that way, your medicine ball throwing is taking away from skill work as well. Do you need to lift? nah. but why not go in with every advantage possible? as sanjuro said, not everyone is born with KO power - look at mayweather. Some people are born KO kings - look at tyson. I prefer to have every advantage I am capable of having.

[Frost]

I wouldn't worry about bench press, but legs, shoulders and explosive power are components of a good punch. some of the most explosive athletes in the world are powerlifters. from that perspective, the explosive power going into the punch is developed through motions like the deadlift, which works every muscle in the body.

it's also no secret that punching begins with connection to the ground. driving power with the legs. the stronger your legs are, generally the more power your punches can carry.
the deadlift mechanics more closely resemble a lift/bodylock throw than anything else really, explosive power when you are moving such a tiny amount of weight really doesnt need deadlift type of motion to build it
It doesnt matter if you squat 400 or 100 pounds it will make little difference to your punch because you are coming no where near your maximum potential, and to get explosive power in the legs id go for a medicine ball throw it works the specific muscles: legs core shoulder triceps etc in the manner you will be using them to throw a punch

[bawang]

Do you need to lift? nah.

in traditional, "external" kung fu, yes you do.


why would you need to bench squat and deadlift to punch when the maximum weight you will be moving is about 16oz??

because it improves your overall base strength, your GPP

the squat/deadlift is a main "gong" in traditionla kung fu.

[Raipizo]

Off topic a little bit but have you guys ever used a rope for arm exercises?
Such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=uDLQVXTJ5ow

[SevenStar]

Battling ropes are kick ass. I use them.

[Raipizo]

So you recommend them? You use them at a gym or you bought them for your house? If so where'd you buy yours.

[SevenStar]

I'm a trainer. My gym has some that I use with my clients and that I use myself. You can get them in sports stores such as sports authority, or get them online through companies such a perform better.

[Frost]

looking at it that way, your medicine ball throwing is taking away from skill work as well. Do you need to lift? nah. but why not go in with every advantage possible? as sanjuro said, not everyone is born with KO power - look at mayweather. Some people are born KO kings - look at tyson. I prefer to have every advantage I am capable of having.

They do take time away yes and if I had a choice id probably spend the time on hitting the heavy bag and working my technique 
But medicine ball throws are easier to learn and are more sports specific, they have a much easier learning curve and place less stress on the CNS and don’t take as much time to recover from…all of which mean you are taking talk less time away from your skill training 

I actually agree with you, I powerlift as well as everything else but it does take time away from skill work and does make recovery harder….. Time is limited and you really have to look at your goals and assess if what you are doing helps or hinders those goals

[SevenStar]

Yeah, it takes away from training time, but I definitely think it's a worthwhile tradeoff.

[Raipizo]

What size rope do you use or recommend, thinking about getting one.

[SevenStar]

Can't really say without knowing your size or strength and the size of the area you'll be using them in. I user 40 footers and varying thicknesses.

[IronFist]

why would you need to bench squat and deadlift to punch when the maximum weight you will be moving is about 16oz??
Come to think of it why do you need to generate a lot of power in a vertical, static line (squat and deadlift) and hold your core muscles statically when the power for a punch comes from powerful rotation at the core with a split stance and foward not upwards momentum?

Not sure if serious or not.

In addition to what SevenStar said, if you get bigger muscles from squatting and deadlifting, you'll have more mass behind your punches, too.

But really, power comes from the legs/torso/arms in a punch. The stronger each of those sections is, the more overall tension can be generated and the harder you can hit.

Obviously you need to have good punching form. I know someone is going to say "NUH-UH IORNFIST, I KNEW A BIG BODYBUILDER WHO DIDN'T KNOW HOW 2 PUNCH AND HE WAS STRONG BUT COULDN'T PUNCH GOOD THEREFORE U R WRONG!!1!1!!"

[Frost]

Not sure if serious or not.

In addition to what SevenStar said, if you get bigger muscles from squatting and deadlifting, you'll have more mass behind your punches, too.

But really, power comes from the legs/torso/arms in a punch. The stronger each of those sections is, the more overall tension can be generated and the harder you can hit.

yep very serious, more mass moves you up a weight category too not a good idea if you actually train a combat sport :)

ill tell that to the 55kg boxer who dropped me last week with a hook punch so hard to the body i couldn't breath,

The fact is for a striking sport which is a speed strength event the load you are moving is so minimal the returns from deadlift squats etc might not be worth the investment of time when simply doing bodyweight drills, medicine ball work and hitting the heavybag will give you the same results without interfering in your skill development

[gareththomasnz]

I got my bench up to 400 lbs for sets & reps on the machine press

There are a couple of techniques.

One is to squeeze your shoulder blades together through the entire bench press - up and down.

You should always do this when you bench.

This reduces strain on the shoulder joint and isolates the pectoral muscles.

You should not be using your shoulders to do the bench & this is the only way to isolate the pecs.

I typically would do 5 or 6 sets with six reps building up to 400 lbs in the last 2 sets.

If you must do less reps that's OK.

Next technique is to do a pulling exercise to balance the pushing exercise you just did.

That is the heavy lat pull down with palms facing you - like in a bicep curl.

I like to reverse pyramid this starting with the heaviest weight possible - everything on the machine.

Six reps, then down a couple of slots etc until you have done six sets - do as many reps as you can on the last two sets.

Ok and recently I have found another exercise that fixes a weak point on the bench - your arms.

Its the kettlebell floor press. You wont get a super strong chest or big pecs from floor pressing but your grip, arms and shoulder joint will be optimized for benching.

Again balance it with a pull like one arm lat row with a heavy KB or DB.

[SevenStar]

yep very serious, more mass moves you up a weight category too not a good idea if you actually train a combat sport :)

It's very common for fighters to weigh over the max weight for their class. They cut weight for the weigh in, then rehydrate afterward. Consequently, you weigh in at the top of the weight class.


ill tell that to the 55kg boxer who dropped me last week with a hook punch so hard to the body i couldn't breath,

Instead, tell that same boxer to up his weight to 75kg, then have him punch you again. This is why there are weight classes.


The fact is for a striking sport which is a speed strength event the load you are moving is so minimal the returns from deadlift squats etc might not be worth the investment of time when simply doing bodyweight drills, medicine ball work and hitting the heavybag will give you the same results without interfering in your skill development

Squats will not interfere any more than medicine ball work will. You are focusing on "the load you're moving" and not taking into account the mass that is moving that load. Like o said, there are weight classes for a reason.

[SevenStar]

I got my bench up to 400 lbs for sets & reps on the machine press


400 on a machine isn't the same as 400 on a bar. Out of curiosity, why are you using a machine?




This reduces strain on the shoulder joint and isolates the pectoral muscles.



You well be able to lift more if you don't isolate the pecs. You also have a lessened chance of tearing that pec muscle, i'm guessing. The tris, shoulders, lats, abs and legs should all be engaged.