Tradional technique vs. tournament technique

[YouKnowWho]

If we compare the traditional technique "front cut (Osoto Gari)" and the tournament (modified) technique "1/2 front cut 1/2 leg block (1/2 Osoto Gari 1/2 Ashi Guruma)", we can see a big difference there.

1. foot placement (next to your opponent leading foot vs. infront and away from his leading foot),
2. attacking angle (push your opponent back vs. rotate him sideway),
3. body angle (your body is vertical vs. your body lean 45 degree forward)
4. attacking leg (you attack your opponent's front leg vs. you attack his back leg).
5. leg force (you kick your leg back vs. you sink your foot down).
6. Your opponent's knee (you don't deal with your opponent's knee vs. you bend his knee sideway).
7. ...

It's not hard to see that the traditional technique will only work against beginners. The tournament (modified) technique can be used to against a strong resisted opponent.

Traditional "front cut (Osoto Gari)":

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

Tournament "1/2 front cut 1/2 leg block (1/2 Osoto Gari 1/2 Ashi Guruma)":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcA45dsJh2w

Here is the original Khadaji's article "Classical Osotogari Doesn't Work!":

http://www.bestjudo.com/article/0822/classical-osotogari-doesnt-work

Here is the counter article by Steve Cunningham "Classical Osotogari Does Work!":

http://www.bestjudo.com/article/0823/classical-osotogari-does-work-rebuttal-steve-cunningham

- Which one's opinion do you agree with, Khadaji or Steve Cunningham?
- Why the traditional technique is different from the tournament technique?
- Is there any value to maintain the traditional training method?
- Does the "striking art" also have the similiar issue?

What's your thought?

[HmorenoM]

- Why the traditional technique is different from the tournament technique?
- Is there any value to maintain the traditional training method?
- Does the "striking art" also have the similiar issue?
What's your thought?

1) Tournament combat: There are rules, you basically "fight" for winning
Traditional/Real combat: There are no rules, no categories... you "fight" for surviving

2) IMO, there is... but i think we have to ask this to ourselves. What are we training for? a tournament? training for life? training for protect ourselves? I think that's the answer for the "traditional technique vs tournament technique"

3) IMO it does... for example, Sanda and TCMA combats.... 1 is for tournament, the other one is quite much deeper

[LaRoux]

1) Tournament combat: There are rules, you basically "fight" for winning
Traditional/Real combat: There are no rules, no categories... you "fight" for surviving

Tournament combat: generally works against full on resisting opponent.

Traditional/Real combat: generally doesn't work against full on resisting opponent because it is "too deadly" to be trained for real.



Sanda and TCMA combats.... 1 is for tournament, the other one is quite much deeper

One works and one doesn't work so well.

[Vash]

I like Mr. Cunningham's quote from the end of the article; "You ... play to win." He is in the context of the article referring to the use of judo technique which is inefficient since such use is necessitated by the rules.

Also, his distinctions between tactics used when under time limit and when not I think make a good point; situation dictates the 'rules.'

For the record, I've had to use a throw in a self defense situation; I nailed the traditional version of Osoto Gari.

[YouKnowWho]

Your throw may always work against beginners. In order to make your throw work against non-beginner, you will need to move yourself to the next level. After you have moved to the next level, should you still use your throw that you have learned in your beginner level training?

For example, if you apply a "hip throw", when you spin, your opponent can spin with you and drag you down to the ground. In your middle (or advance) level of training, you have replaced all your body spin by a 90 degree sharp turn. Should you still keep the word "spin" in your dictionary, or should you totally remove that word from your dictionary?

One of my senior SC brothers believes we should preserve the traditional method so we all know where did we come from. I'm more in favor of to discard the traditional method and replaced with the evolved method.

[Yum Cha]

Tournament combat: generally works against full on resisting opponent.

Traditional/Real combat: generally doesn't work against full on resisting opponent because it is "too deadly" to be trained for real.

One works and one doesn't work so well.

Now, my buddies in the sandpit would dispute that LaRoux, they are fighting a traditional and very real kind of combat, and they are only mildly amused by my stories of hand-to-hand and <giggle> tournaments!

[PalmStriker]

Now, my buddies in the sandpit would dispute that LaRoux, they are fighting a traditional and very real kind of combat, and they are only mildly amused by my stories of hand-to-hand and <giggle> tournaments!
:D ShortsSports with mittens, on padding.

[Yum Cha]

:D ShortsSports with mittens, on padding.

I asked a particularly experienced friend of mine (3 tours) if he ever had any hand-to-hand training (Drake, you still around?). He said he was taught one move he used, which was grabbing a hand with two fingers in each hand, and pulling sideways, while bending back.
He used it once in a situation where there were several 'maybe bad' guys all rounded up and they were having a bit of a chat when one grabbed for his sidearm, in a suicide holster on his chest. When he did it it tore the guys hand in half, nearly down to the wrist.

I wonder if that qualifies as an effective 'real combat' technique, bit you'd get disqualified if you tried it in a tournament. Just sayin...

[MasterKiller]

If we fight for money, I stop punching when you ask. If we fight for honor, I stop punching when I feel like it.--Rickson Gracie

[David Jamieson]

If we fight for money, I stop punching when you ask. If we fight for honor, I stop punching when I feel like it.--Rickson Gracie
Gotta love that gracie egotude of infalibilty. lol

[Orion Paximus]

Gotta love that gracie egotude of infalibilty. lol

lol I was gonna say "A Gracie would have to throw a punch before they could stop throwing punches"

[SevenStar]

lol I was gonna say "A Gracie would have to throw a punch before they could stop throwing punches"

that quote was by rickson. he's not a striker, but has no problems throwing punches

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_6tlkeQ8X8

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/8/24/2380028/ufc-134-rio-mma-historyrickson-gracie-vs-huge-duarte-beach-fightht-ever

[GeneChing]

...back when mastodons still roamed the earth...:o

...we used to talk about tournament techniques.

In fencing at the university, I was part of two programs: the NCAA one where there really was only tournaments and results, and a classical masters program, which often talked about the degradation of fencing methods by modern competition. Of course, the masters program was academic.

In kendo, our dojo was descended from a Japanese military police dojo (that's my lineage there and I'm proud of it) so it was pretty hardcore. When we struck men (head target), we weren't only supposed to strike with sufficient impact to split the skull. We were instructed cut hard enough to cleave well into the chest cavity. Kendoka who bounced when they fought were derogatorily referred to as 'university' kendoka, who only trained for tournaments.

[YouKnowWho]

IMO, the difference between street technique and tournament technique is in

- street, you are dealing with average Joe.
- tournament, you are dealing with the best of the best.

Even if your technique may work against average Joe, it make need some modification to make it to work on somone of your own level. Someone may say that your modification is just some "special trick". To me, if a technique can only work on average Joe and won't work on a strong resisted opponent, your techenique is still not there yet.

[RickMatz]

...back when mastodons still roamed the earth...:o

...we used to talk about tournament techniques.

In fencing at the university, I was part of two programs: the NCAA one where there really was only tournaments and results, and a classical masters program, which often talked about the degradation of fencing methods by modern competition. Of course, the masters program was academic.

In kendo, our dojo was descended from a Japanese military police dojo (that's my lineage there and I'm proud of it) so it was pretty hardcore. When we struck men (head target), we weren't only supposed to strike with sufficient impact to split the skull. We were instructed cut hard enough to cleave well into the chest cavity. Kendoka who bounced when they fought were derogatorily referred to as 'university' kendoka, who only trained for tournaments.

That is the topic of this book (http://www.amazon.com/Inner-Game-Fencing-Excellence-Technique/dp/1570282307/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1362450703&sr=1-1&keywords=the+inner+game+of+fencing), classical technique, strategy and mindset vs scoring points in a tournament. It's very good reading.

t

[LaRoux]

I asked a particularly experienced friend of mine (3 tours) if he ever had any hand-to-hand training (Drake, you still around?). He said he was taught one move he used, which was grabbing a hand with two fingers in each hand, and pulling sideways, while bending back.
He used it once in a situation where there were several 'maybe bad' guys all rounded up and they were having a bit of a chat when one grabbed for his sidearm, in a suicide holster on his chest. When he did it it tore the guys hand in half, nearly down to the wrist.

I wonder if that qualifies as an effective 'real combat' technique, bit you'd get disqualified if you tried it in a tournament. Just sayin...

It qualifies as "fantasy made up in the head and never actually done" technique.

Just sayin;

[Yum Cha]

It qualifies as "fantasy made up in the head and never actually done" technique.

Just sayin;

Funny, most Ju Jitsu guys I met know that move. Maybe you could talk to someone who knows a bit to get the reference. Funny thing was, he got a couple of quick lessons and put it into play the first time he had to use it. Granted, he was a bit stressed at the time, and quite well trained in other areas.

From your last post on the other thread about military tactics, you seem to be rather ill informed in that area, so I'll guess that extends to the individuals as well. So, what's your issue? You think it can't de done period, or you think its just a big porkey that anybody actually could/would do it?

And, more importantly, how would you know?

A common fool can call anybody a liar....and they usually do. Go back to lurking if that's the best you can do.

[YouKnowWho]

grabbing a hand with two fingers in each hand, and pulling sideways, while bending back. ..
When you do that, it's better to use your chest to press on your opponent's palm (hard for him to pull his hand back) when you move toward him (to jam his arm between your body and his body). Also it's better to force him to drop down to the ground (if you use 45 degree forward downward force).

The "finger split" can be used on the thumb too. In Taiwan, it's taught to all cops. When a driver holds on his steering wheel and refuses to come out of his car, you use your 4 fingers to pull his thumb away from his other 4 fingers (your 4 fingers are always stronger than his single finger - thumb).

If your opponent holds on your forearm (away from your wrist), you can also use your other hand to hold on his forearm, bend your elbow downward and toward him to against his thumb, and break loose his grip.

When your opponent holds on your wrist, a twist into his thumb can break his grib much easier than to twist into his 4 fingers (1 finger is weaker than 4 fingers).

To pull finger/fingers away from other fingers is a common TCMA "finger joint locking" skill. Unfortunately, since MMA guys always have MMA gloves on, you will never be able to see "finger split" in any cage fight. By definition, it may always be categoried as "non-realistic TCMA technique".

[GeneChing]

It's very good reading. Look up his competitive fencing record. ;)

[HmorenoM]

IMO, the difference between street technique and tournament technique is in

- street, you are dealing with average Joe.
- tournament, you are dealing with the best of the best.

Not always an average Joe is on the street, and not always the best of the best are in tournaments...

[Robinhood]

The street your dealing with unknown, the tournament your dealing with known techniques and rules.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The street your dealing with unknown, the tournament your dealing with known techniques and rules.

Very true, hence if you can't beat someone under those controlled conditions, you'll have less of a chance under uncontrolled conditions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

...back when mastodons still roamed the earth...:o

...we used to talk about tournament techniques.

In fencing at the university, I was part of two programs: the NCAA one where there really was only tournaments and results, and a classical masters program, which often talked about the degradation of fencing methods by modern competition. Of course, the masters program was academic.

In kendo, our dojo was descended from a Japanese military police dojo (that's my lineage there and I'm proud of it) so it was pretty hardcore. When we struck men (head target), we weren't only supposed to strike with sufficient impact to split the skull. We were instructed cut hard enough to cleave well into the chest cavity. Kendoka who bounced when they fought were derogatorily referred to as 'university' kendoka, who only trained for tournaments.

Gene knows what is !

[Sima Rong]

I'm sure someone a while back posted a video of some of the Gracies talking about the art as primarily composed of sport techniques against an opponent skilled in ground fighting, but that their training centres needed to focus on the core of self defense techniques first until the learner is adept at them before learning a sport guard which might be anathema to self defence.
Some behaviours in a sporting situation are not appropriate to self defence, such as not training to guard against punches or strikes when you are training grappling on the ground with other grapplers.
Many sport techniques too when taken out of a controlled situation or when not used on the mat and on a concrete floor could be lethal, such as some sanda throws.

[Robinhood]

Very true, hence if you cane beat someone under those controlled conditions, you'll have less of a chance under uncontrolled conditions.

I don't see any correlation to your statement, your assuming something ,..... if you are told something , you have better chance of knowing what you weren't told.

If you practice for rules, you also might limit yourself to those rules.


It is easier to prepare for something known then something unknown.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't see any correlation to your statement, your assuming something ,..... if you are told something , you have better chance of knowing what you weren't told.

If you practice for rules, you also might limit yourself to those rules.


It is easier to prepare for something known then something unknown.

To go with your point of:It is easier to prepare for something known then something unknown- if you can't beat someone under known conditions, what makes you think you can beat them under unknown conditions?

[Robinhood]

To go with your point of:It is easier to prepare for something known then something unknown- if you can't beat someone under known conditions, what makes you think you can beat them under unknown conditions?

What makes you think they can ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

What makes you think they can ?

Look what YOU wrote:

It is easier to prepare for something known then something unknown.

The street your dealing with unknown, the tournament your dealing with known techniques and rules.
By that logic ( which I agree with), if you can't beat a person in a sport match because the rules and conditions are known and you would be, typically, on equal footing as it were, how can you hope to beat that person when you are NOT equal and the conditions are unknown?
Logically, you can't.
EX:
If I fight someone in the ring and we are both limited by rules and I know him because I have studied his previous fights or maybe in films of him, BUT I can't beat him under those conditions which are far more favorable to me than if I did NOT know anything or there were no rules to level the playing field, then it makes no sense to thing I can beat him when he is NOT limited to those rules and conditions and I do NOT know him at all.

[YouKnowWho]

I have studied his previous fights or maybe in films of him,

In sport, you can't hide yourself. If you are a striker. everybody will know that you are a striker. If your are a grappler, everybody will also know you are a grappler.

In street, someone may punch you very hard at your head. The moment that you think he is a striker, he shoots at your leg.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In sport, you can't hide yourself. If you are a striker. everybody will know that you are a striker. If your are a grappler, everybody will also know you are a grappler.

In street, someone may punch you very hard at your head. The moment that you think he is a striker, he shoots at your leg.

It works both ways, that is why sport has rules, to make the playing field as even as possible and that is why, under those conditions, everyone has a better chance then if there were no rules and their opponent was unknown.

To say that in the street you have a better chance because there are no rules means that you are assuming that, for some reason, you will have an advantage over your opponent that ALSO HAS NO RULES !

[Robinhood]

Look what YOU wrote:


By that logic ( which I agree with), if you can't beat a person in a sport match because the rules and conditions are known and you would be, typically, on equal footing as it were, how can you hope to beat that person when you are NOT equal and the conditions are unknown?
Logically, you can't.
EX:
If I fight someone in the ring and we are both limited by rules and I know him because I have studied his previous fights or maybe in films of him, BUT I can't beat him under those conditions which are far more favorable to me than if I did NOT know anything or there were no rules to level the playing field, then it makes no sense to thing I can beat him when he is NOT limited to those rules and conditions and I do NOT know him at all.

That is where the unknown comes in, you don't know what he us going to do on the street, so who ever is cunning will have the advantage. Not necessarily the guy in better shape, its more about being surprised and adjusting than attrition .

But it all depends on who against who, but just because you could beat him using rules does not mean you can beat him without rules. All things that work for him might be against the rules.

[YouKnowWho]

Since we can only train in the sport environment, we can't train in the street environment, to argue that "street training" is better than "sport training" is meaningless.

Can anybody explain what a "street training" suppose to look like?

[HmorenoM]

Since we can only train in the sport environment, we can't train in the street environment, to argue that "street training" is better than "sport training" is meaningless.

Can anybody explain what a "street training" suppose to look like?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTKqYkvmdkU

something like this i think... as real as possible

[sanjuro_ronin]

Since we can only train in the sport environment, we can't train in the street environment, to argue that "street training" is better than "sport training" is meaningless.

Can anybody explain what a "street training" suppose to look like?

http://cdn.hoboken411.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/street_fight.jpg

[GeneChing]

You know, I got out of most of my street fights in High School just by posing. I could do a decent Bruce Lee impersonation (actually it's more like a Shaw Brothers villain impersonation, but all Chinese looked alike back then so they couldn't differentiate), and you'd be amazed how many high schoolers backed down at the sight back then. Of course, that was a long time ago, back when mastodons walked the earth (although I even got a few mastodons to back down too).

The point is that nothing is really useless on the street, even posing fu. Some stuff might be inappropriate, like bringing a ground game to a river fight (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=937) or a flying kick to an icy street, but you never really know what might lay in store. So the best way to train for the street is to train a lot of stuff. Tournaments are definitely included in that, IMO. You won't learn it all from that, but you're sure to learn something (most likely that you suck at sparring :p).

[Yum Cha]

Nothing compares to the lessons you learn watching yourself fight full contact on video.
Training is made up of pieces, some of this, some of that, and the endless progression of challenges. Heavy contact has to be part of your training, sometime in your career, and tournaments are a convenient and rather safe place to exercise.

By the grace of God, should you be lucky enough to never have to use your art, but if you do you'll benefit from those lessons undoubtedly.

Gene also makes a great point, with skill comes confidence to exercise a number of non-combative strategies to diffuse a potentially bad situation. It comes down to experience.

[MightyB]

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/larp%282%29.jpg

HaZaaa!

[MightyB]

Here's the deal,

Traditional Technique teaches form, not function.

Function mutates over time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here's the deal,

Traditional Technique teaches form, not function.

Function mutates over time.

Please take your logic and common sense elsewhere, there is no room for that in this thread !
:p

[MightyB]

Sanjuru, you and maybe two other people reading that comment will understand the post - everyone else will get angry and start posting about MMA vs TCMA or Da Streetz.

So with that you'll see that I'm definitely not introducing any logic or common sense to this thread.

Commence with the LARPing my friends. HaZaa!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuru, you and maybe two other people reading that comment will understand the post - everyone else will get angry and start posting about MMA vs TCMA or Da Streetz.

So with that you'll see that I'm definitely not introducing any logic or common sense to this thread.

Commence with the LARPing my friends. HaZaa!

Don't knock larp'ing dude, its been proven that there are some hotties that like to larp :)

[MightyB]

Don't knock larp'ing dude, its been proven that there are some hotties that like to larp :)

I don't knock LARPing at all- in fact I see it as a positive outlet for creative energy. I also advocate that we who participate in martial arts are LARPing at various degrees... and that there's nothing wrong with that and I believe that it's a liberating and positive attitude to understand that you are in fact LARPing when studying martial arts.

Like I said, we're a little cooler than the comicon kids, but not quite as cool as Civil War reenactors because they have horses and canons.

[SPJ]

Since we can only train in the sport environment, we can't train in the street environment, to argue that "street training" is better than "sport training" is meaningless.

Can anybody explain what a "street training" suppose to look like?

Anything goes.

Outnumber

use tools

---

in a tourney

we level the plain fields

one vs one

no this no that

with a ref

rules and rules

etc etc

in a street

no rules.

:)

[Robinhood]

Since we can only train in the sport environment, we can't train in the street environment, to argue that "street training" is better than "sport training" is meaningless.

Can anybody explain what a "street training" suppose to look like?


No body is saying it is better, only different.......different doesn't mean better !

Train without rules and protection, what is so hard about that, well I take that back , the concept is easy, application and control is not. If all you can do is through hay makers at each other it won't work.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't knock LARPing at all- in fact I see it as a positive outlet for creative energy. I also advocate that we who participate in martial arts are LARPing at various degrees... and that there's nothing wrong with that and I believe that it's a liberating and positive attitude to understand that you are in fact LARPing when studying martial arts.

Like I said, we're a little cooler than the comicon kids, but not quite as cool as Civil War reenactors because they have horses and canons.

I disagree that the horses and canons make the civil war guys cooler, too noisy and horse poop all over.
We have silk jammies, exotic weapons that can just as easily eviscerate us as our opponent, monks that kick ass and hanging stuff off our scrotum, you don't find that **** on the civil war battlefield !!
:D

[SevenStar]

No body is saying it is better, only different.......different doesn't mean better !

Train without rules and protection, what is so hard about that, well I take that back , the concept is easy, application and control is not. If all you can do is through hay makers at each other it won't work.

That's still not really street training - you're not going all out with techniques when you do this

[MightyB]

I disagree that the horses and canons make the civil war guys cooler, too noisy and horse poop all over.
We have silk jammies, exotic weapons that can just as easily eviscerate us as our opponent, monks that kick ass and hanging stuff off our scrotum, you don't find that **** on the civil war battlefield !!
:D

<clapping - weeping> You've just made me re-valuate my point of view.

You're right - we are the Cool Kids!!!

[Robinhood]

That's still not really street training - you're not going all out with techniques when you do this

Yes, if it gets to the point of all out, you usually have missed your opportunity to capitalize on their weakness.

The whole idea of exploiting someone's weaknesses , is to have an advantage, to just swing and miss till someone goes down is like playing Russian roulette.

If you can't find weakness you don't want to commit much or risk much.

[YouKnowWho]

The whole idea of exploiting someone's weaknesses , is to have an advantage, to just swing and miss till someone goes down is like playing Russian roulette.

There is a so called "machine gun" theory that you pull your triger and shoot out as many bullets as you can, hope one of your bullet can kill your opponent. When your opponent tries to dodge your bullets, he will open his weakness to you.

[Robinhood]

There is a so called "machine gun" theory that you pull your triger and shoot out as many bullets as you can, hope one of your bullet can kill your opponent. When your opponent tries to dodge your bullets, he will open his weakness to you.

Sure, as long as he does not take advantage of you first,.all in sensitivity and adjustment, whose chasing who.

[Yum Cha]

YKW and Robinhood,
Two kinds of engagement from the way I see it.
The 'boxing' style (for lack of better term) where you engage and wear down your opponent, trying to deliver more damage than you take until you can find a weakness and defeat him.

The Blalde fighter. He knows that he just needs one good cut to win or loose, and he wants to avoid anything that is equal, he wants to consolidate all his advantages, and then strike to cut and keep cutting until its done.

John's "Machine Gun" sounds a lot like the 'Blade' fighter mentality to me. Attacking once is all you should have to do. And yea, you may have to do it twice, or more if you're not up to it.

This also translates into training. Especially the concept of consolidating your advantages and manipulating/controlling the engagement before you throw the first bridge.

I think this translates into street vs tournament technique, to some extent.

[SPJ]

There is a so called "machine gun" theory that you pull your triger and shoot out as many bullets as you can, hope one of your bullet can kill your opponent. When your opponent tries to dodge your bullets, he will open his weakness to you.

actually it is a technique of no technique

random fists

random kicks

random strikes with staff or blade

one after another

etc etc

disorderly but many and many

--

luan gun

:)

[YouKnowWho]

it is a technique of no technique ...

XingYi master used to say, "Even if you can't find any opportunity to attack, you still keep moving. Moving after moving, your opponent will open himself up for your attack".

http://imageshack.us/a/img692/2721/keepmoving1if.jpg