Techniques that you have never used

[YouKnowWho]

Let's leave health, performance, self-cultivation, and inner peace out of this discussion.

Does the following bother you?

- Your XingYi teacher asked you to do Pi Chuan everyday.
- You have spent all your life working on Pi Chuan.
- Oneday you get old and look back.
- You realize that you have never used your Pi Chuan in any sparring or street fight.
- You start to wonder if you have spent the same amount training time in you jab, cross, uppercut, hook combo all those years, will you be more happy about yourself in your old age?

Oneday when you become a teacher. Will you teach your students how to do "Pi Chuan", or will you teach your students how to do "jab, cross, uppercut, hook"?

The "jab, cross, uppercut, hook" may not be in your system. But how hard will it be for you to put it into your system (or just put into your own body and forget about your system)?

Have you ever look back and count how many teachniques that you have trained but never being used?

[GeneChing]

I haven't really used a full deep horse stance in any sparring or street fight. But I've used it a lot when taking a dump. Does that count? I've taken far more dumps than I've spent time sparring or in street fights.

[Orion Paximus]

Let's leave health, performance, self-cultivation, and inner peace out of this discussion.

Does the following bother you?

- Your XingYi teacher asked you to do Pi Chuan everyday.
- You have spent all your life working on Pi Chuan.
- Oneday you get old and look back.
- You realize that you have never used your Pi Chuan in any sparring or street fight.
- You start to wonder if you have spent the same amount training time in you jab, cross, uppercut, hook combo all those years, will you be more happy about yourself in your old age?

Oneday when you become a teacher. Will you teach your students how to do "Pi Chuan", or will you teach your students how to do "jab, cross, uppercut, hook"?

The "jab, cross, uppercut, hook" may not be in your system. But how hard will it be for you to put it into your system (or just put into your own body and forget about your system)?

Have you ever look back and count how many teachniques that you have trained but never being used?

Maybe if you had done what your teacher told you to do "Practice Pi quan" then you would be more than adept enough with it to use it in combat or sparring.

[jdhowland]

Have you ever look back and count how many teachniques that you have trained but never being used?

Yes, many times.

I have, in fact, changed my teaching methods because of this thought. When I was young and had a thousand years to live I emphasized the "canon" of material at the expence of the simple core techniques. Now I emphasize the "seeds" and leave the rest for those interested in further study. I think the more elaborate techniques still offer great stuff for exposure to ideas but these can always be recreated as need arises.

[MightyB]

I haven't really used a full deep horse stance in any sparring or street fight. But I've used it a lot when taking a dump. Does that count? I've taken far more dumps than I've spent time sparring or in street fights.

I think if you dump in the street, or on your boss's desk, that's more of a political statement.

[MightyB]

Let's leave health, performance, self-cultivation, and inner peace out of this discussion.

Does the following bother you?

- Your XingYi teacher asked you to do Pi Chuan everyday.
- You have spent all your life working on Pi Chuan.
- Oneday you get old and look back.
- You realize that you have never used your Pi Chuan in any sparring or street fight.
- You start to wonder if you have spent the same amount training time in you jab, cross, uppercut, hook combo all those years, will you be more happy about yourself in your old age?

Oneday when you become a teacher. Will you teach your students how to do "Pi Chuan", or will you teach your students how to do "jab, cross, uppercut, hook"?

The "jab, cross, uppercut, hook" may not be in your system. But how hard will it be for you to put it into your system (or just put into your own body and forget about your system)?

Have you ever look back and count how many teachniques that you have trained but never being used?

I don't think this is a problem that happens in a school that engages in regular sparring and playing hands. It's really not possible in a place that does that because reality does a fantastic job of weeding out the bull sh*t.

[Robinhood]

Let's leave health, performance, self-cultivation, and inner peace out of this discussion.

Does the following bother you?

- Your XingYi teacher asked you to do Pi Chuan everyday.
- You have spent all your life working on Pi Chuan.
- Oneday you get old and look back.
- You realize that you have never used your Pi Chuan in any sparring or street fight.
- You start to wonder if you have spent the same amount training time in you jab, cross, uppercut, hook combo all those years, will you be more happy about yourself in your old age?

Oneday when you become a teacher. Will you teach your students how to do "Pi Chuan", or will you teach your students how to do "jab, cross, uppercut, hook"?

The "jab, cross, uppercut, hook" may not be in your system. But how hard will it be for you to put it into your system (or just put into your own body and forget about your system)?

Have you ever look back and count how many teachniques that you have trained but never being used?


No, why would I, unless I was on the wrong path, each step gets you closer to your destination , unless you are walking in circle.

[MightyB]

Here's my question for YouKnowWho...

If you could do it all over again, would you change what you did?

[Golden Arms]

Agreed. Reality also is great at pointing out what is used most frequently and what is better used as a supplement to the core methods of a system/style.

Trying to use a superman punch for example, will be much more successful if one has the base punching clinching and kicking skill set down and ,goes to the superman punch to change things up. The same could be said for kam choi, or flying arm bar if used as a fundamental without a well rounded, well developed base, the opponent will clue in very quickly to your game and adapt if you don't get them the first time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are many things I have done in forms that I have never done in real life.
I don't recall ever doing an "upward block" for example or most of the blocks I learned in Karate now that I think of it...
I have used pretty much every type of strike though.
I learned many throws in judo but have ever only used a handful of them.

Would I teach the others? Sure because maybe someone else night be able to use them, they may be better suited to them then for me.

[YouKnowWho]

Here's my question for YouKnowWho...

If you could do it all over again, would you change what you did?

I would analysis all techniques and find a set of techniques that

- fit my body type, and also
- meet my own interest.

For example, I like toe push kick. I don't like heel kick (it has shorter reach than toe push kick). I could spend my training time to make my toe push kick twice as good instead of to spend my training time to develop both kicks.

I'll also totally ignore the longfist "360 degree forward and backward floor sweep" training and many similiar techniques developing like that ...

I have trained so many TCMA styles in my life. As far as the punching skill, I still like:

- jab, cross, jab (one step 3 punches),
- running punch (3 steps 1 punch),
- jab , cross, uppercut, hook,
- hook, back fist, uppercut,

more than my longfist

- cross, kick punch, jab,
- kick punch, kick punch, jump kick punch, jab.

where kick punch is to kick one leg and punch the opposite hand at the same time.

[GeneChing]

I think if you dump in the street, or on your boss's desk, that's more of a political statement.
Taking a dump on the street is an act of necessity.
Taking a dump of my boss's desk is an act of resignation.
Doing the Harlem Shake in the street is a political statement. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1216279#post1216279)

:D

[SPJ]

Let's leave health, performance, self-cultivation, and inner peace out of this discussion.

Does the following bother you?

- Your XingYi teacher asked you to do Pi Chuan everyday.



Pi quan

We place both hands forward and downward.

We may not use this a lot or at all.

However, it is very good for development of foundational body structure and movement.

Pi is in all styles with different ways of doing the same function.

In Pi gua zhang, we use the whole arm and swing in a big circle.

In Ba gua zhang, we may use drilling zhang or penetraing palm first then Pi.

etc etc

True. We may practice lots of stuff.

Do we use all the them ? probably not.

We probably resort to 2 or 3 techniques or just a few most of the time.

Such is the life.

:)

[David Jamieson]

Flying Kicks.

[Bernard]

I am particular to joint locks. Having said there are a lot of locks I probably never used.

I have used a few elbow/shoulder locks and even some finger locks.

i have never used wrist locks.

[MasterKiller]

Flying Kicks.

I've used a double jump kick in sparring a lot, but I push like a teep instead of kicking up like a traditional Chinese kick. It works when someone has their back pinned to a wall (or cage).

I've tried a few tornado kicks, but never landed one solidly. I clipped a guy once, but he rushed in on me and ended up taking my back.

[YouKnowWho]

Flying Kicks.

I did use flying kick a lot when I was young. When I used my "flying side kick" to come down 45 degree on my opponent's leading leg knee joint, I could put my opponent in 100% defense at that particular moment. Very little risk on my part. Either I land my foot on my opponent's knee joint, or I land my feet infront of him if he moves back. To my opponent, it's a kick. To me, it's just close the distance (but my opponent doesn't know that)

[Syn7]

I've landed a few jumping kicks. Not spinning though. Never tried that. Infact I have never used a spinning kick in a fight. Well, aside from the spinning back kick, but I don't really count that. Likewise I have used spinning elbow but never a backfist. I find the elbow is pretty effective in close quarters.

[GeneChing]

...maybe that's because I never quite got the splits. Nevertheless, they appear in a few of my Bak Sil Lum forms.


Flying Kicks.Didn't I just say that two posts above yours? :p I've seen other people use flying kicks. I've just never used them for anything practical beyond showing off. I was never that confident with my high kicks, much less my flying ones. :o

[Syn7]

Flying knees work pretty well too. Especially against a less experienced person that is bigger than you are. That **** hurts.

[David Jamieson]

...maybe that's because I never quite got the splits. Nevertheless, they appear in a few of my Bak Sil Lum forms.

Didn't I just say that two posts above yours? :p I've seen other people use flying kicks. I've just never used them for anything practical beyond showing off. I was never that confident with my high kicks, much less my flying ones. :o

I haven't purposefully thumbed an eye either :) Or bitten someone. :)

Also, I don't think I've ever used a low leg sweep with any success, but I have used a short bearded hook step to good success. Basically a short sweep/kick. Works great when you are standing and touching/maneuvering for position of strength.

[GeneChing]

I haven't purposefully thumbed an eye either :) Or bitten someone. :)
I have purposefully thumbed an eye. See Biters vs. Fighters (https://www.tigerclaw.com/blog/2010/12/biters-vs-fighters/).

I have also purposefully bitten some one.

But she bit first. ;)

Seriously, you train biting?

[Kellen Bassette]

I never trained Xing Yi, but I sparred someone who used Pi Chuan against me very successfully. He was much larger and more powerful than me, but I think the main reason I had so much difficulty was because of my unfamiliarity with the technique/concept.

I have used the back spinning sweep successfully. It needs to be set up and is difficult to pull off, but it's doable. I intend to train it seriously and master the move. (Note to self, start that already!)

I have used various flying kicks while sparring, but rarely. I love them for a training method, however. To me they are the same as their "regular" versions, only done in the air for increased difficulty and training coordination.

[YouKnowWho]

I think the "ground sweep" is to "use the maximum effort to achieve the minimum result". All your opponent needs to do is to lift his leg and let your sweep to pass under.

[Kellen Bassette]

I think the "ground sweep" is to "use the maximum effort to achieve the minimum result". All your opponent needs to do is to lift his leg and let your sweep to pass under.

I think it is useless against an on-balance opponent. My best luck with it was by setting it up with a kick to the opposite leg, to force the weight on the leg you are sweeping. It's very risky and tough to pull off, but when it works, it's a thing of beauty.

[-N-]

Likewise I have used spinning elbow but never a backfist.

Rarely used spinning backfist, but landed it one time when I was still doing Kenpo.

The other guy's teeth cut all the way through his upper lip.

He got stitched up and the next day the teacher found out and yelled at him for not wearing a mouth guard. And I had to clean all the blood we left all over the mats.

[Mike Patterson]

Let's leave health, performance, self-cultivation, and inner peace out of this discussion.

Does the following bother you?

- Your XingYi teacher asked you to do Pi Chuan everyday.
- You have spent all your life working on Pi Chuan.
- Oneday you get old and look back.
- You realize that you have never used your Pi Chuan in any sparring or street fight.
- You start to wonder if you have spent the same amount training time in you jab, cross, uppercut, hook combo all those years, will you be more happy about yourself in your old age?

Oneday when you become a teacher. Will you teach your students how to do "Pi Chuan", or will you teach your students how to do "jab, cross, uppercut, hook"?

The "jab, cross, uppercut, hook" may not be in your system. But how hard will it be for you to put it into your system (or just put into your own body and forget about your system)?

Have you ever look back and count how many teachniques that you have trained but never being used?

I have used Pi Chuan in every contest, ring or street, I have ever been involved with as have my students. If this concept of Pi is not found useful, I would hazard a guess that it is not well understood by the person attempting to apply same.

Too often, people become "hung" on the notion of the action and forget to apply the concept. It should be understood that by attempting to apply "actions" one learns over time how to apply "concept." After that, actions are of no real use other than to teach others.

Combat is a chaotic event. If you're looking for that "picture perfect technique/kodak moment" then get used to dissapointment. However, if you look to applied concept, well then... now you have something to work with.

That's not to say that I eschew jab, cross, uppercut, hook by any means. :)

Just my two cents.

[MasterKiller]

I haven't purposefully thumbed an eye either :) Or bitten someone. :)

Also, I don't think I've ever used a low leg sweep with any success, but I have used a short bearded hook step to good success. Basically a short sweep/kick. Works great when you are standing and touching/maneuvering for position of strength.

I stuck my thumb in the eye of an aikido teacher who said he could beat me by sticking his thumbs in my eyes. I jammed my thumb in and said "I can do that too, bro!"

[David Jamieson]

Seriously, you train biting?

train? no, but I do test bite grip and jaw strength (bite rope and hang) on occasion.

Biting is a legit thing, I've never used it. :)

[CicadaL9H]

YouKnowWho, if your are refering to Metal, the form or simply assuming the standing position, I have an easy answer for you: you either had a bad teacher, or you are a bad student. Excuse me for being confrontational, but after a "lifetime of training", you should be able to answer any fighting situation with metal. Anything. I think you never put in the effort or time.

[David Jamieson]

YouKnowWho, if your are refering to Metal, the form or simply assuming the standing position, I have an easy answer for you: you either had a bad teacher, or you are a bad student. Excuse me for being confrontational, but after a "lifetime of training", you should be able to answer any fighting situation with metal. Anything. I think you never put in the effort or time.

This is awesome!

Always a treat when someone admonishes and chastises a world class Shuai chiao sifu in such a presumptive and suppositional manner.

John Wang, apparently your half a century of study and practice in traditional chinese martial arts was wrong according to this guy. What have you got to say for yourself?

:D:p

[SPJ]

1. In Xing Yi 5 element fist

Pi Beng Zhuan Pao Heng

Pi was considered the first and the last posture or most important

The root structure sort of

--

2. for me

Beng is the toughest one to do correctly

well some would say they are all difficult to do correctly

3. and yes

in the old time, some would just do Pi for years.

and actually use Beng more.

4. fast and direct ones (techniques) are used more with more success rate.

--

Just to point out

where the first post comes from or is based upon

--

:)

[YouKnowWho]

YouKnowWho, if your are refering to Metal, the form or simply assuming the standing position, I have an easy answer for you: you either had a bad teacher, or you are a bad student. Excuse me for being confrontational, but after a "lifetime of training", you should be able to answer any fighting situation with metal. Anything. I think you never put in the effort or time.
The XingYi Pi Chuan is just one example to be used for discussion. It can be:

- Taiji "single whip",
- Longfist "tornado kick",
- SC "hand harmony",
- ...

I assume if I use the SC "hand harmony" or longfist "tornado kick" as example, you may say that I also have a bad SC/longfist teacher, and I'm also a bad SC/longfist student. :o

If you only have few tools in your toolbox, when an opportunity present to you, you will use whatever that you have in your toolbox to handle that situation. If you have more tools in your toolbox, when the same opportunity present to you, you will use your favor tools to handle that situation. After you have success with your favor tools, you will like to use those tools more and more. Soon, your favor tools will get better and better. Since you haven't tested your unfavor tools enough, your unfavor tools will become less effective.

You can

- write a book for 200 techniques (only pictures are needed).
- produce a DVD for 100 techniques (you can keep filming until satisfied)
- teach a workshop for 50 techniques (only slow motion are needed).
- demo in public for 25 techniques (your opponent gives you the opportunity).
- fight in the street/tournament for 10 techniques (you have to deal with resisted opponent).

We just can't put effort and time in everything. If we try to master everything, we will end with nothing.

[lkfmdc]

Too often, people become "hung" on the notion of the action and forget to apply the concept. It should be understood that by attempting to apply "actions" one learns over time how to apply "concept." After that, actions are of no real use other than to teach others.

Combat is a chaotic event. If you're looking for that "picture perfect technique/kodak moment" then get used to dissapointment. However, if you look to applied concept, well then... now you have something to work with.

That's not to say that I eschew jab, cross, uppercut, hook by any means. :)

Just my two cents.

Worth much more than "two cents" it is one of the few diamonds among the pig **** here ... and will be covered over in same far too quickly

[Robinhood]

And the concept of the day is ???.

[CicadaL9H]

"If you only have few tools in your toolbox, when an opportunity present to you, you will use whatever that you have in your toolbox to handle that situation. If you have more tools in your toolbox, when the same opportunity present to you, you will use your favor tools to handle that situation. After you have success with your favor tools, you will like to use those tools more and more. Soon, your favor tools will get better and better. Since you haven't tested your unfavor tools enough, your unfavor tools will become less effective.

You can

- write a book for 200 techniques (only pictures are needed).
- produce a DVD for 100 techniques (you can keep filming until satisfied)
- teach a workshop for 50 techniques (only slow motion are needed).
- demo in public for 25 techniques (your opponent gives you the opportunity).
- fight in the street/tournament for 10 techniques (you have to deal with resisted opponent).

We just can't put effort and time in everything. If we try to master everything, we will end with nothing."

I agree sir. As you know, in Hsing-I, Metal is that one tool. Being the foundation of the entire system, every other tool in the bag derives from it.

[bawang]

anything with bridging/wrist grab

[David Jamieson]

I'm guessing as a warm up right before you come on to moderate on the forum, he? ;):p

lol. Your humour, it is acceptable. :p

[YouKnowWho]

anything with bridging/wrist grab

I'm not too sure about "bridging" now. Our mind will always change with time. "Today's we" may not even agree with "last year's we". I used to like bridging until oneday I sparred with my senior SC brother. He refused to let my arms to touch his arms. The moment that I tried to under hook or over hook on him, the moment that his arm just spin with my arm. It gave me an uncomfortable feeling as if I'm fighting against the thin air. One moment his arm is there, next moment his arm is no longer there. After that I tried to give my opponent the same uncomfortable feeling too. I started to de-emphasised the "bridging" concept. It's a 2 edges sword, when you can sense your opponent, your opponent can also sense you at the same time. If you can't sense your opponent, you will never know when and where your opponent will appear, it will give you some scary feeling.

I start to emphasis more and more on wrist grabbing. If I can use one of my hands to grab one of my opponent's wrist, I can soon turn a striking game into a grappling game. All I need is just one wrist grip. When my opponent tried to punch me with his free hand, I can use "combing hair" and move in. Since it's to my advantage, I love to use that strategy.

[YouKnowWho]

Too often, people become "hung" on the notion of the action and forget to apply the concept.

Agree!

The XingYi Pi Chuan is similiar to the LHPM "catch grasshopper". After the small circle (grab), there is a big circle (strike). The big circle then turn into a small circle (if you miss the strike, it turns into a grab). The previous small circle then turn into a big circle (the previous grab turns into another strike). I love this "concept" and had spent many training time in it. Since the "grab" has different meaning in SC, I take a different path after my "grab".

[GeneChing]

...I've never used that mantis claw backhanded strike. You know, the one where you hit with the back of your wrist. I had it used against me when just playing hands before, but I've never used it personally. And I've been dabbling in mantis for years. I guess that's why I just consider it dabbling...:o

[YouKnowWho]

...I've never used that mantis claw backhanded strike. You know, the one where you hit with the back of your wrist.

When Adam Hsu taught me the mantis Lun Je form, there are a lot of such moves in that form. I asked him, "Can someone really kills anybody by using this move?" Adam was quite shoked by the straight forward question that I asked. Today, I still think that move doesn't have much combat value.

[GeneChing]

"Can someone really kills anybody by using this move?" I've never tried to actually kill anybody. I've used martial arts techniques on the street plenty of times, but never with the intention to kill. That's...well, that's overkill. :p

I had someone bloody my nose with that hook hand technique. He wasn't trying to kill me either.

[bawang]

I'm not too sure about "bridging" now.
change is a good thing. live to old age, learn to old age.


I start to emphasis more and more on wrist grabbing. If I can use one of my hands to grab one of my opponent's wrist, I can soon turn a striking game into a grappling game. All I need is just one wrist grip. When my opponent tried to punch me with his free hand, I can use "combing hair" and move in. Since it's to my advantage, I love to use that strategy.
i find when opponent is losing and turtling, or he is a beginner and very nervous, so his guard is very stiff, you can grab his wrist. but trying to grab a punch leads to black eye.


another important thing is idiots often grab the wrist to attempt a complicated qin na maneuver. you grab the wrist to punch the face.

[Golden Arms]

i find when opponent is losing and turtling, or he is a beginner and very nervous, so his guard is very stiff, you can grab his wrist. but trying to grab a punch leads to black eye.


another important thing is idiots often grab the wrist to attempt a complicated qin na maneuver. you grab the wrist to punch the face.

Wow that actually sounds like an observation from someone that has trained and fought some. If so, what style(s)?

[YouKnowWho]

you grab the wrist to ...

Actually you have no interest in your opponent's wrist. It's just an "initial pulling point" that can help you to pull your body into his. Your pulling point can be any part of his body. Since his wrist may be closer to you, to be able to disable his arm and to pull yourself in at the same time, the wrist grip will work just fine. The nice thing about it is if your opponent doesn't want you to grab his wrist, he will move his hand out of your moving path. That will open his front door for you. So the wrist grab can be real and also can be fake.

[-N-]

...I've never used that mantis claw backhanded strike. You know, the one where you hit with the back of your wrist. I had it used against me when just playing hands before, but I've never used it personally. And I've been dabbling in mantis for years. I guess that's why I just consider it dabbling...:o

Some ways of using it are more useful than others.

Just up and hitting someone with it isn't particularly advantageous.

Rebounding off an inside redirect into reverse mantis claw to the jaw or nose is fast and gets good results.

[-N-]

When Adam Hsu taught me the mantis Lun Je form, there are a lot of such moves in that form. I asked him, "Can someone really kills anybody by using this move?" Adam was quite shoked by the straight forward question that I asked. Today, I still think that move doesn't have much combat value.

Jab doesn't kill anybody either.

If you are talking about reverse mantis claw, use it to transition quickly from lead open hand defensive move to set up your power moves.

Not all strikes are interchangeable. There is specific context and strategy for using mantis claw etc.

[YouKnowWho]

Jab doesn't kill anybody either.
I also don't think a jab can be used to kill either. Sometime in my nightmare that no matter how many punches that I have landed on my opponent's head, my opponent is still standing and laught at me. Nothing is more scary to find out that your training is totally useless.

All our life, we try to develop a set of effective "finish moves". Whether we will use it or not, that's a different story. To me, effective finish moves are those moves that you can end a fight quickly.

It may be interest to separate those "effective finish moves" from those "not quite effective finish moves". IMO, effective finish moves can be:

- drop your elbow straight down on your opponent's heart area when he is on the ground.
- push your opponent's face and smash the back of his head all the way to the hard ground.
- kick the back of your opponent's head when he is on the ground.
- ...

May be people can contribute other "effective finish moves" here.

[-N-]

I'm not too sure about "bridging" now. Our mind will always change with time. "Today's we" may not even agree with "last year's we". I used to like bridging until oneday I sparred with my senior SC brother. He refused to let my arms to touch his arms. The moment that I tried to under hook or over hook on him, the moment that his arm just spin with my arm. It gave me an uncomfortable feeling as if I'm fighting against the thin air.


You don't mean to say this is new for you, do you? Your teacher never did this to you?



I start to emphasis more and more on wrist grabbing. If I can use one of my hands to grab one of my opponent's wrist, I can soon turn a striking game into a grappling game. All I need is just one wrist grip. When my opponent tried to punch me with his free hand, I can use "combing hair" and move in. Since it's to my advantage, I love to use that strategy.

Sounds contradictory.

Your senior showed you not to chase after a solid connection. But now you also say you start to emphasize more on grabbing?

[-N-]

I also don't think a jab can be used to kill either. Sometime in my nightmare that no matter how many punches that I have landed on my opponent's head, my opponent is still standing and laught at me. Nothing is more scary to find out that your training is totally useless.

All our life, we try to develop a set of effective "finish moves". Whether we will use it or not, that's a different story. To me, effective finish moves are those moves that you can end a fight quickly.

It may be interest to separate those "effective finish moves" from those "not quite effective finish moves". IMO, effective finish moves can be:

- drop your elbow straight down to your opponent's heart area when he is on the ground.
- push your opponent's face and smash the back of his head to the hard ground.
- kick the back of your opponent's head when he is on the ground.
- ...

May be people can contribute other "effective finish moves" here.

Well, let's just use the Mantis example you guys already started with elbow and takedown.

Both are right lead.

Other guy initiates a right lead attack while coming in.

You go into his attack, use inside mantis claw to redirect his lead, and bounce it into reverse mantis claw strike to his face. This gets you in and gives you left overhook and wrap on his right. Your right leg has steal step behind his right and you are all the way in. Use your right elbow and torque into his face and down while scissoring out his base. Take him all the way down to the ground. You have right arm control and can follow up with whatever grapple you prefer. Or just kick him in the head.

Classic Mantis.

[SevenStar]

I don't think this is a problem that happens in a school that engages in regular sparring and playing hands. It's really not possible in a place that does that because reality does a fantastic job of weeding out the bull sh*t.


Not necessarily. How many judo throws are there? How many do you regularly use? It's not that some of the throws are BS, there's just too many.

[YouKnowWho]

Sounds contradictory.

Your senior showed you not to chase after a solid connection. But now you also say you start to emphasize more on grabbing?
It's contradictory. "Avoid bridging" is a striker's strategy. "Construct bridging" is a grappler's strategy. If you want to make your opponent to think that you are a striker, you use striker's strategy. When you suddently switch to grappler's strategy, it will cost a big surprise to your opponent. David C. K. Lin used "avoid bridging" strategy on me because he knew I'm a grappler as he is.

The difference between "wrist grabbing" and "forearm parrying" are almost unnoticeable. When your left hand move a clockwise circle toward your opponent right leading arm. If he

- doesn't move his right arm away from you, you can get a wrist grip on his right arm. You then tuck his arm away from your moving path, and move in.
- rotates his right arm with you as if he tries to grab your left wrist instead, his front door will be open. His right hand is no longer in your moving path. You don't need to tuck his hand. You can just move in.

In either cases, you keep moving your left arm until your left hand can reach to his right elbow (or upper arm).

So if his hand is there, that's fine. If his hand is not there, that's fine too. You don't care one way or another.

[SevenStar]

Jab doesn't kill anybody either.

If you are talking about reverse mantis claw, use it to transition quickly from lead open hand defensive move to set up your power moves.

Not all strikes are interchangeable. There is specific context and strategy for using mantis claw etc.

My first two fights resulted in someone knocked out from a jab. If they later died from embarrassment, would that count?

[YouKnowWho]

My first two fights resulted in someone knocked out from a jab. If they later died from embarrassment, would that count?

It depends on the definition of jab. If you can use your jab as powerful as the XingYi Beng Chuan, I'm sure you can use it to kill.

[YouKnowWho]

use inside mantis claw to redirect his lead, and bounce it into reverse mantis claw strike to his face.

I think the "reverse mantis claw" is used for speed. Of course you can replace it with a vertical punch. Since you may not have time to change your mantis claw into a fist, you just punch when your hand is still in the shape of mantis claw. When you want to achieve the maximum speed, do you still be able to achieve the maximum power? It's very difficult if not impossible IMO. Any move that doesn't generate "maximum power" won't be considered as "finish move".

[B.Tunks]

With all due respect, no technique can be seriously regarded as a guaranteed finishing move – especially if you’re talking about killing someone. A finishing move could only really be called a finishing move after it ‘finishes’ someone. In reality, people are not very easy to kill without the use of weapons and you are more likely to accidentally kill someone with a simple technique such as a punch in the head that causes a severed artery or brain haemorrhage then by attempting to use a specific killing technique.

[YouKnowWho]

no technique can be seriously regarded as a guaranteed finishing move.
Of course nothing is guranteed. In the

- striking art, people train "head punch",
- throwing art, people train "head smash",

so they can use it to end fight quickly.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5174095872/hDAE4EBF1/&imgrefurl=http://cheezburger.com/5174095872&h=700&w=449&sz=57&tbnid=FFZbVEBOV6VZ6M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=58&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dpunch%2Bthrough%2Bhis%2Bhead%26tbm%3D isch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=punch+through+his+head&usg=__yMBdE4gIvFYIiXP2DUyYXB7j_Rg=&docid=2xN3QTugS4XddM&sa=X&ei=QXFBUdC9DqO42gX4h4DwCw&ved=0CDoQ9QEwAg&dur=92

http://imageshack.us/a/img715/1438/headhitground.png

Old saying said, "If you don't hit your opponent's head, you may have to fight him from sun raise untill sun set." "Finish move" also has to do with which part of your opponent's body that you are dealing with too.

[B.Tunks]

nice moves

[-N-]

The difference between "wrist grabbing" and "forearm parrying" are almost unnoticeable. When your left hand move a clockwise circle toward your opponent right leading arm.

Agreed. That is how we teach our students.

We also use momentary forearm contact in the same way as mantis hook.

That is how we use that concept when we have gloves on.

Also makes the student learn how to get in deeper.

[-N-]

nice moves

That is the mental image when training those moves, haha.

[SevenStar]

Of course nothing is guranteed. In the

- striking art, people train "head punch",
- throwing art, people train "head smash",

so they can use it to end fight quickly.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5174095872/hDAE4EBF1/&imgrefurl=http://cheezburger.com/5174095872&h=700&w=449&sz=57&tbnid=FFZbVEBOV6VZ6M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=58&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dpunch%2Bthrough%2Bhis%2Bhead%26tbm%3D isch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=punch+through+his+head&usg=__yMBdE4gIvFYIiXP2DUyYXB7j_Rg=&docid=2xN3QTugS4XddM&sa=X&ei=QXFBUdC9DqO42gX4h4DwCw&ved=0CDoQ9QEwAg&dur=92

http://imageshack.us/a/img715/1438/headhitground.png


If technique done properly, no can defense.

[MightyB]

I've never used a "Dirty Sanchez".

[David Jamieson]

I've never used a "Dirty Sanchez".

You haven't lived until you do.
It's even better than teabagging!

[bawang]

Wow that actually sounds like an observation from someone that has trained and fought some. If so, what style(s)?

i train harlem shake

[GeneChing]

...I've never used a 3-section staff (http://www.martialartsmart.com/25-34.html) technique for anything other than the form. Those techniques don't quite map on to anything else. I used to practice a Bak Sil Lum sparring set: 3-section staff vs. spear. I was mainly the 3-section staff side. My main partner and I got pretty good at it. But that's the closest I've ever come to using any of those 3-section staff techniques.

[-N-]

...I've never used a 3-section staff (http://www.martialartsmart.com/25-34.html) technique for anything other than the form. Those techniques don't quite map on to anything else. I used to practice a Bak Sil Lum sparring set: 3-section staff vs. spear. I was mainly the 3-section staff side. My main partner and I got pretty good at it. But that's the closest I've ever come to using any of those 3-section staff techniques.

Praying Mantis 3 section staff in 3 section staff vs. spear maps a bit to double broadsword or double stick.

Not very fancy looking, but practical.

[B.Tunks]

...I've never used a 3-section staff (http://www.martialartsmart.com/25-34.html) technique for anything other than the form. Those techniques don't quite map on to anything else. I used to practice a Bak Sil Lum sparring set: 3-section staff vs. spear. I was mainly the 3-section staff side. My main partner and I got pretty good at it. But that's the closest I've ever come to using any of those 3-section staff techniques.

Out of interest, Thomas Holtmann of Qixing Tanglang family in Germany fights full contact with the 3 section staff against many different weapons as part of the Dog Brothers. He is AKA Gongfu Dog. He does very well with it too.

BT

[YouKnowWho]

Has anybody seen the heel kick been used in any fight?

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/1174/heelkick.jpg

[Kellen Bassette]

I've seen it.

[-N-]

Has anybody seen the heel kick been used in any fight?

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/1174/heelkick.jpg

Front heel kick, yes. But not effective the way she's doing it.

Beginners kick like that all the time. Takes forever to fix that mistake.

[MasterKiller]

Has anybody seen the heel kick been used in any fight?

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/1174/heelkick.jpg

http://slcmma.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/mma_silva2x_600.jpg

[PalmStriker]

Has anybody seen the heel kick been used in any fight?

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/1174/heelkick.jpg I avoid using front kixks (except to the ankle & shins) but my most powerful kick is a heel kick. Rear full extension mule kick without looking behind at target to announce intention.

[MasterKiller]

I avoid using front kixks (except to the ankle & shins) but my most powerful kick is a heel kick. Rear full extension mule kick without looking behind at target to announce intention.

Best front push kick is a "teep," where you extend your toes and hit with the ball of the foot. It's highly effective to the midsection and below.

http://www.fototime.com/photos/st/9189C0E068464EC0ACBA38DF167D46E8/18%20-%20Gassaway%20vs%20Pele%20(W).bmp

As for your back kick description, I don't recommened kicking at anything you can't see.

[Brule]

Best front push kick is a "teep," where you extend your toes and hit with the ball of the foot. It's highly effective to the midsection and below.


As for your back kick description, I don't recommened kicking at anything you can't see.

Best in what terms? Damage, keeping the opponent at a distance etc... Just curious.

[MasterKiller]

Best in what terms? Damage, keeping the opponent at a distance etc... Just curious.

Best as in "most effective."

You might kick harder using something else, but the Teep creates a safe striking distance by means of the foot extension and torso leaning back and has significant stopping power without compromising your defense or balance.

In my opinion.

[YouKnowWho]

http://slcmma.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/mma_silva2x_600.jpg

That looks like a "toe push kick" by using the "ball" of the foot instead of the "heel" of the foot as the contact point.

The "toe push kick" has much more reach than the "heel kick" (not talking about spin heel kick here). The straight line "heel kick" just seems to me a bit too short in reaching.

[Kellen Bassette]

Here's the full context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxedz8dAbrw

[YouKnowWho]

Here's the full context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxedz8dAbrw

That's still "toe push kick".

[MasterKiller]

That looks like a "toe push kick" by using the "ball" of the foot instead of the "heel" of the foot as the contact point.

The "toe push kick" has much more reach than the "heel kick" (not talking about spin heel kick here). The straight line "heel kick" just seems to me a bit too short in reaching.

You're right. I was just being contrarian.

[Kellen Bassette]

That's still "toe push kick".

I wasn't disagreeing...just thought the clip was better than a picture.

[Sima Rong]

Regarding push kicks etc, I was pleasantly surprised when I did a stamping/stomping kick with the heel once in sparring when I thought my opponent was in too high a stance, and it knocked him right down on his ass. I aimed it to the centre of his chest and stamped down with the whole foot, and he fell straight down. Actually thinking about this, the guy was probably a bit shorter than me too.

I'm not sure whether I'd do it again though unless the opponent is really in too high a guard, and open for it. Someone would probably catch my leg and dump me. But it surprised me by its effectiveness at that time. A ball of the foot kick wouldn't have been able to do this I think, and would push back rather than down.

Oh, and to keep the topic on this thread, I have never really used a head kick, at least without dropping someone's head to a lower position first. This is partly because my old training partner was much taller than me.

I have never used an eye poke on someone either, but ban shou (slapping with the back of the fingers) works rather well when targeted at the eyes in a real situation.

[Kellen Bassette]

A ball of the foot kick wouldn't have been able to do this I think, and would push back rather than down.


I use the teep with the ball of the foot to the body a lot..but I like to use my heel to the legs...a little safer against the shins and knees and whatnot.

[PalmStriker]

Best front push kick is a "teep," where you extend your toes and hit with the ball of the foot. It's highly effective to the midsection and below.

http://www.fototime.com/photos/st/9189C0E068464EC0ACBA38DF167D46E8/18%20-%20Gassaway%20vs%20Pele%20(W).bmp

As for your back kick description, I don't recommened kicking at anything you can't see. You see with your eyes only? :D

[-N-]

Here's the full context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxedz8dAbrw

So he's doing basically what the girl in the first pic was doing. Swing the foot up to target. Not really a heel kick.

We get power and reach from the front heel kick by bringing the knee up to chest and stamping forward with the heel while turning the kicking side forward and jamming the hip forward. The kick has a strong linear vector, not arcing up.

It's a fundamental TCMA kick. YKW, you don't like it?

Easy fast combo is jab, cross, front heel kick. Do it like running into attack. The kick is part of the run, and you smash forward into his chest and continue forward with followup attacks. Easy to overrun the person that way. We like run in with low round kick after the front kick.

[Kellen Bassette]

We get power and reach from the front heel kick by bringing the knee up to chest and stamping forward with the heel while turning the kicking side forward and jamming the hip forward. The kick has a strong linear vector, not arcing up.


Your description is more or less the difference between thrust kicking and snap kicking. Either style can substitute ball or heel, depending on preference and situation. Snap kick can also use the instep.

I think they all have their time and place.

[-N-]

Your description is more or less the difference between thrust kicking and snap kicking. Either style can substitute ball or heel, depending on preference and situation. Snap kick can also use the instep.

I think they all have their time and place.

Yep.

But Praying Mantis teaches that kick as a thrust kick. A power kick that is set up or hidden by a speed technique. And the reach is made up by the hip turn and thrust.

[MasterKiller]

You see with your eyes only? :D

Head leads the body. Leave the no-look gimmicks to Kempo.

[YouKnowWho]

It's a fundamental TCMA kick. YKW, you don't like it?
IMO, the "heel kick" is like the side kick, it's easier to get caught on the ankle. This is the same as standing in cat stance will have less chance to be swept than standing in 7 star stance.

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/9049/caughtankle1.jpg

In my longfist system, when we have reached to the intermediate level, we start to develop our toes push kick as our bread and butter move as shown at 0.45 in the following clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLnVHNGsSno

The toes push kick has

- longer reach,
- less impact area (more force per square inch),
- harder to catch (as long as your ankle is not caught, you can always pull it back), and
- since your always lean your body back, it's safter to use it to deal with incoming head punches.

http://imageshack.us/a/img199/3853/mayintu.jpg

I did see the old man used the heel kick to force his challenger to move back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75EKWT2dG44&feature=youtu.be

[-N-]

IMO, the "heel kick" is like the side kick, it's easier to get caught on the ankle. This is the same as standing in cat stance will have less chance to be swept than standing in 7 star stance.

Sure, if you just look at isolated movements.

But that is like saying a cross is easy to catch or wrap than a jab. That's why each element of a good combination sets up for the maximum advantage and minimum disadvantage of the next move.

Nobody should be standing in cat stance or seven star stance. Unless their name is Daniel-San and their teacher is Mr. Miyagi.

Purely transitional positions that last less than a tenth of a second as you are starting to kick, knee, leg trap, run in, etc. That's why in Chinese, it is called "step" and not "stance".

But toe kick is good too.

Your teacher's classmate at Nan Jing Academy included front heel kick when he taught San Da.

[Kellen Bassette]

Purely transitional positions that last less than a tenth of a second as you are starting to kick, knee, leg trap, run in, etc. That's why in Chinese, it is called "step" and not "stance".


That is an excellent insight.

As to the foot catching, I always felt the side kick is a very difficult kick to catch.
IMO the easiest kick to catch is a roundhouse, next is a front snap kick. However, if the kick is done well...there no defense...:cool:

[YouKnowWho]

Since when your opponent uses side kick at you, his body is turning side way. His back hand won't be able to reach you. You only have to deal with his leading arm. When he uses front kick at you, you have to deal with both of his arms.

[Kellen Bassette]

Since when your opponent uses side kick at you, his body is turning side way. His back hand won't be able to reach you. You only have to deal with his leading arm. When he uses front kick at you, you have to deal with both of his arms.

That's true, but your also less open for a counter strike. Less open, less opportunity to attack, more open, more opportunity to attack. Always a trade off.

[MasterKiller]

The problem with getting your sidekick caught is that you essentially have no recourse. If a teep or roundhouse gets caught, your hips can be turned toward the opponent and you can try to clinch the neck etc to maintain balance. Sidekick gets caught and you might as well pull guard because the position of your hips makes it very hard to maintain balance long enough to counter.

[YouKnowWho]

When your opponent catches your side kick, he can move through your "side door" and then into your "back door". That's even worse than let him to enter your front door since none of your hands can reach to your back door.

A simple example is your opponent can uses hip throw (with his back touches your back) to throw you and let your body to flip backward. It's a quite helpless situation.

[Robinhood]

When your opponent catches your side kick, he can move through your "side door" and then into your "back door". That's even worse than let him to enter your front door since none of your hands can reach to your back door.

A simple example is your opponent can uses hip throw (with his back touches your back) to throw you and let your body to flip backward. It's a quite helpless situation.

Why can't you close the door .?:cool:

[PalmStriker]

Head leads the body. Leave the no-look gimmicks to Kempo.
Backfist to face leads Bruce Lee's backside blind in Enter the Dragon. :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgCwyHr7Fzs

[MasterKiller]

Why can't you close the door .?:cool:

Because he's got your foot.

[YouKnowWho]

Because he's got your foot.

When you get your opponent's foot, if you pull his leg into you, you will be able to pull yourself into him by the counter force. If you use your back hand to jam his leading arm elbow, wrap your leading arm around his waist, you can move into his back door smoothly.

Here are some leg catching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL4ac8FL-eY

[SevenStar]

The problem with getting your sidekick caught is that you essentially have no recourse. If a teep or roundhouse gets caught, your hips can be turned toward the opponent and you can try to clinch the neck etc to maintain balance. Sidekick gets caught and you might as well pull guard because the position of your hips makes it very hard to maintain balance long enough to counter.

Yup. I believe that is why we don't see the sidekick more.

[GeneChing]

...I've never used the kiu sau, except for posing for photos. And I practice every day as the 'shoot the vulture' section of baduanjin (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56712). :rolleyes: