About the importance of niem lik

[poulperadieux]

An excellent article of "Nature".

We think as a certanity that our hand is our hand, Descartes wrote about it, a lot.

You were wrong, the limits of our body, our self are continously refreshed and placed in jeopardy by simple illusions or more invasive brain stimulations in the cingular gyrus.


I let you read :

http://www.nature.com/news/out-of-body-experience-master-of-illusion-1.9569

http://www.nature.com/news/2002/020919/full/news020916-8.html

[Hendrik]

Niem Lik is just human emulate the mechanics of a rod to transfer applied force. Why makes it more then it is and cause confusion?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1216748&postcount=218

[GlennR]

Niem Lik is just human emulate the mechanics of a rod to transfer applied force. Why makes it more then it is and cause confusion?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1216748&postcount=218

Can you show us the data you have accumulated to come to this conclusion?

[poulperadieux]

Niem Lik is just human emulate the mechanics of a rod to transfer applied force. Why makes it more then it is and cause confusion?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1216748&postcount=218


Because there's the brain involved?

And it's a rather complex stuff?

[poulperadieux]

Humain being biomecanics can't be explained only by... Mercanic theories...


Because of the Bio thing of course !


We are not machines !


There's a few layers of information process between what we want to do and what we actually do, how we locate our body in space, how we recruit muscles, how we balance agonists and antagonist, and synergestic muscles to make a precise move...


That link, for me, It was called Niem Lik.

[Paddington]

Can't, he's a man of faith, not science.

Actually that link to Hendrik's previous post that Hendrik cites argues for demystifying the term.

Whilst I think you raise some interesting points about the 'mind', this Descartian insistence on separating the 'mind' and 'body' has come into a little trouble of late. Ironically, the proverbial trouble maker being Taoist and Buddhist thought.

[imperialtaichi]

If everything is about simple physics then we should all learn Kung Fu from Stephen Hawkings.

There is no point watching football, as the winner should be determined in a Lab, not a field.

[imperialtaichi]

I let you read :

http://www.nature.com/news/out-of-body-experience-master-of-illusion-1.9569

a quote from the article:

"Ehrsson's next challenge is to work out what these illusions reveal about the brain. According to textbook wisdom, people build up a perception of their bodies using 'proprioception' — signals from the skin, muscles and joints that indicate the relative position of body parts. But Ehrsson's illusions show that vision and touch are also a crucial part of the mix, and that the brain builds a sense of self by constantly compiling information from all these senses. Proprioception may be telling the brain that the body is seated in a chair, but the carefully timed vision and touch signals in Ehrsson's illusion convince the brain that it is somewhere else entirely."

This is really, really interesting. My experience with many skilled internal masters is that, my senses are being fooled. In one occasion, where my student was videoing me being pushed down by GM Wei (IYTC), what I felt my posture was, was indeed completely different from the videoed image.

[Hendrik]

Actually that link to Hendrik's previous post that Hendrik cites argues for demystifying the term.

Whilst I think you raise some interesting points about the 'mind', this Descartian insistence on separating the 'mind' and 'body' has come into a little trouble of late. Ironically, the proverbial trouble maker being Taoist and Buddhist thought.



The issue is the term nim Lik is not accord to the Chinese ancient definition, or siu lin tau kuen kuit of 1850, or wck tradition, and actually missed term be it in Confusious, daoist, or Buddhism.

So, further evolve this type of term is going to cause confusion. Like those who take fuzzy or blur or dull as zen.


1. Niem in Chinese means the present state of heart or present state of mind.


2. Mind has four basic functions, thinking, intending, visualizing, and aware.


So, what is Niem Lik which TST refer to?

Using TST making the weight scale rising demo as example.

Niem lik for him is using the intending function of the mind , to hold the body limbs passing the force applied on him , such that the point of taking the applied force ( ie hand ) and the ground support point (scale )are in synch for force transfer.
Thus, the body is emulating a rod which transfer the force applied at one end to the other end. Or to sustain the incoming force from one end by the support of the grounding of the other end.


3. We can see here, the intending function of mind in TST process is doing alignment to emulate a rod passing force from one end to the other end. It is a communication or control or alignment mechanism but not a force generation or power path mechanism.

Thus, the name Niem Lik which means the present mind state force is not accurate to describe what kind of mind- body phenomenon. But causing confusion.
The mind mechanic is simply not related to the force directly.

The process is

intending --> body alignment --> channeling force


Using intention to align the physical body mechanics but intention doesnot generate or deal with force directly.



4. It is a simple process of using the posture to emulate a force transfer rod via intention which can be describe accurately what it is and how to reproduce . Since intention and alignment of posture are two dominant elements.

One can learn it within a few mins, knows what it is, and reproduce it precisely.


5. As above, mind has four basic function, each of them has their purpose. These four are accord with the ancient practice of explore the mind and body boundary , such as the Buddhist tools or technology, the Samantha which is dropping the intention, visualization, and thinking to enter the awareness. And the vippasana which is using the intention, visualization, and thinking. While deep within awareness.


6. I have no issue of Tst finding, in fact I respect and praise his hard work to get this far by his own. While I get the easy path via the 1850 kuen kuit . Nor I put him down. I am just trying to clear up what is what so that wcner clear about what type of phenomena it is.

That is because when one get into the internal art domain, one needs to know what is what. Instead of for example, mind can means lots of things. Is it thinking? Is it intending? Is it visualing? Is it aware? Which mind or Niem one is talking about? If one is not clear which function one cannot make it happen.

How is this type of phenomenon could be applied in real life if one is not even know what it refer too? How can one even make it happen without knowing what it is?

[Paddington]

If everything is about simple physics then we should all learn Kung Fu from Stephen Hawkings.

There is no point watching football, as the winner should be determined in a Lab, not a field.

Look, the physics is as complex as you want to go. A lot of Wing Chun can be accounted for via physics and mathematics accessible to most in the secondary School system in the UK (ages 12-18). To demonstrate some of the key principals you don't need to go much further.

However, if I want to account for, say, reflexes and reactions then I would move beyond simple physics to read articles on the central nervous system and the extent to which connective tissue operates as a signaling network in the human body, much like the central nervous system.

Yes, this last example I cite does add credence to looking at a human as a single embodied unit rather than some transcendent 'mind and body' ala Descartes.

EDIT: Oh, I am working on a mathematical model for aspects of Wing Chun so you will get to read and judge for yourself.

[Hendrik]

My question to the so called Chinese internal artist is always


1, If one cannot describe the process to make it happen, then one don't know it and cannot reproduce it.

2, If one is not even clear on the body joints handling, then one has no basic physical handling.


3, If one is not even know the four mind function, thinking, intending, visualization, and aware , can not enter into any of this Four at will, why bother goes dao, zen, central nervous system......philosphy? Internal art is not a religion or intellectual mind game. But a mind body operation.


4. Things must fit into and satisfy the following three laws, because one deal with force and momentum. These are the nob one turn to play in the domain of momentum and force.

Momentum = mass x velocity
Momentum = force x time
Force = mass x acceleration



Btw.

Wing Chun snake body or snake engine , in the most basic form , is just the training and development of using the four mind function to handle the seven major body joints to produce different force and momentum outcome.

One needs this two keys, the four function of mind and the handling of joints , to enter the door.
Keep it simple.



Look, the physics is as complex as you want to go. A lot of Wing Chun can be accounted for via physics and mathematics accessible to most in the secondary School system in the UK (ages 12-18). To demonstrate some of the key principals you don't need to go much further.

However, if I want to account for, say, reflexes and reactions then I would move beyond simple physics to read articles on the central nervous system and the extent to which connective tissue operates as a signaling network in the human body, much like the central nervous system.

Yes, this last example I cite does add credence to looking at a human as a single embodied unit rather than some transcendent 'mind and body' ala Descartes.

EDIT: Oh, I am working on a mathematical model for aspects of Wing Chun so you will get to read and judge for yourself.

[Hendrik]

Some often ask me, so what can you do? Can you do better then xyz....etc.


They are missing my point,


My point is

First, one must know exactly the process of how to reproduce the phenomena .
Then, it is just a matter of practice, everyone can do it and how good they are depend on how much they practice.

Second, knowing the process and physics , one will know the boundary condition, assumption or Innetial condition, and the limit. One then knows how far this thing can fly or how fast, or how powerful it can be at its max. By then, one knows is it usefull in the application and can it do the job ?

With the first and second. One knows what it is . One always need to know these in order to evolve to better, also one always need to know these to break it. And there is why the fun is, the game of silva, one hand destruction, the other hand creation.


Some just not use to this type of thinking .

[poulperadieux]

Using TST making the weight scale rising demo as example.



No no no...

Let's meet people and ask them what niem Lik is for them.

Youtube isn't real people...

What you "understood" about TST conception of niem lik isn't what I was taught...
Maybe I wasn't taught on youtube, that could be the start of an explaination...

[poulperadieux]

First, one must know exactly the process of how to reproduce the phenomena .
Then, it is just a matter of practice, everyone can do it and how good they are depend on how much they practice.


FIRST, One must do.

By DOING, one can really Understand.

"Nothing really becomes real until you felt it" John Keats.

by the way:

« Long Bridge energy is not really a strategy, it’s more a state of awareness of the connexion of the body and the mind, what I think TST calls « niem lik ».

The strategy to discover the long bridge is proper form in the legs, than correct visualisation training, the intention you make in your moves.
For example, in the last saam pai fut in the end of the form, just before the bong sao, if no one says to you that when you go palm up than you do jum sao, you must, not only copy the move, but also visualize a constant forward spiral, you miss the move entirely, and it’s purpose.
Your move will be palm up, and then you will rotate the joints of the forearm to present the edge, you will miss the forward pressure you get when you squeeze the articulations and the muscles in a constant forward spiral, and that without moving an inch.

Some people call it internal work, some call it internal energy.

For me, it’s moving the basic activation of the muscles, being ready in the proper way without movement to be seen from the outside.
That can only be worked with visualisation because the brain is able to activate specific groups of muscles if trained… Niem lik.

So, when you have long bridge, witch is cultivated everyday in the way you do your form, the most difficult thing is not to turn it on, but to switch it of, it becomes a habit, it becomes part of how you move.

Than over that, you can apply any strategy you like.

For your last question, when you work the long bridge, the tansition from the short to the long distance must be felt, from your sensations, and from the guy who test it by touching you point of view, continuous. »

And an article about the long Bridge.


Niem lik is about dealin with your opponent force AND force generation using visualisation, mind set and the knowledge of bones, articulation, muscle physiology, fascias...

artcile in english and french :

http://poulperadieux.com/2012/06/03/faire-le-pont-building-the-bridge-chercher-le-pont-seeking-the-bridge/

[Hendrik]

Why go indirect?

Get direct from TST himself , what is it and his coaching , no need for guessing, no need others imagination.

The above view of mine is based on TST own words and action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_V5-IUw7s0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eNBcb0Sxqw




No no no...

Let's meet people and ask them what niem Lik is for them.

Youtube isn't real people...

What you "understood" about TST conception of niem lik isn't what I was taught...
Maybe I wasn't taught on youtube, that could be the start of an explaination...

[poulperadieux]

Why go indirect?

Get direct from TST himself , what is it and his coaching , no need for guessing


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_V5-IUw7s0


C'est celui qui dit qui y est.

I went to a close friend of him, and I stopped learning with chinese, I stopped learning new stuff in Wing Chun, I'd rather concentrate on Russian and French stuff.

We French have a long martial history, and the more I discover it, the less I want to travel to find someone selling me nonsense.

[Hendrik]

in proper learning of Chinese martial art,

First one must be given the process or Kung fatt. Then one practice Acording to the Kung fatt via the coching of the sifu to get result of the development.


There is no such thing as just do it or by dong it. Without Kung fatt.
Those are just wasting of life. How many has been told to just practice siu nim tau but get no where instead of mimic posture?
Then , some get creative and create their own version of things, still not what it is. Can get the result as it is intended to develop.

Ie qi is not hypnotis, but if you never go through proper development in the physical, mind, and breathing layers, you will not knowing it or have no good handling of it.



The term long bridge energy is a creative term by some creative person .


In tcma

Long bridge is classify as the arm technic with elbow in stretch.
Short bridge is classfy as the arm technics with elbow in deep bending .

Long bridge and short bridge is independent of power genertion or visualization.




The existance of slt kuen kuit is to instruct one the process and what exactly Needs to follow to practice slt.



So, the problem today is every one likes to create their own term, not willing to know what it is, not willing to look at it under physics .

Everyone is happy because everyone called each others sifu or laushi or master or guru . But none of us can make the art works as it suppose to.




FIRST, One must do.

By DOING, one can really Understand.

"Nothing really becomes real until you felt it" John Keats.

by the way:

« Long Bridge energy is not really a strategy, it’s more a state of awareness of the connexion of the body and the mind, what I think TST calls « niem lik ».

The strategy to discover the long bridge is proper form in the legs, than correct visualisation training, the intention you make in your moves.

For example, in the last saam pai fut in the end of the form, just before the bong sao, if no one says to you that when you go palm up than you do jum sao, you must, not only copy the move, but also visualize a constant forward spiral, you miss the move entirely, and it’s purpose.

Your move will be palm up, and then you will rotate the joints of the forearm to present the edge, you will miss the forward pressure you get when you squeeze the articulations and the muscles in a constant forward spiral, and that without moving an inch.

Some people call it internal work, some call it internal energy.

For me, it’s moving the basic activation of the muscles, being ready in the proper way without movement to be seen from the outside.
That can only be worked with visualisation because the brain is able to activate specific groups of muscles if trained… Niem lik.

So, when you have long bridge, witch is cultivated everyday in the way you do your form, the most difficult thing is not to turn it on, but to switch it of, it becomes a habit, it becomes part of how you move.

Than over that, you can apply any strategy you like.

For your last question, when you work the long bridge, the tansition from the short to the long distance must be felt, from your sensations, and from the guy who test it by touching you point of view, continuous. »

And an article about the long Bridge.


Niem lik is about dealin with your opponent force AND force generation using visualisation, mind set and the knowledge of bones, articulation, muscle physiology, fascias...

artcile in english and french :

http://poulperadieux.com/2012/06/03/faire-le-pont-building-the-bridge-chercher-le-pont-seeking-the-bridge/

[poulperadieux]

in proper learning of Chinese martial art,

For you Jimmy, for you !

Stay Humble, isn't Humility an asian sorta stuff?


First one must be given the process or Kung fatt. Then one practice Acording to the Kung fatt via the coching of the sifu to get result of the development.

Kung Fat... Don't like this, I try to get abs you know !



There is no such thing as just do it or by dong it. Without Kung fatt.


Masta Yoda Says otherwise :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ4yd2W50No

It's ancient wisdow from a galaxy far far away.









The term long bridge energy is a creative term by some creative person .

Is a term that is used in a a lot of martial arts and not only wing chun, so who created it? Dunno, you?





Long bridge is classify as the arm technic with elbow in stretch.
Short bridge is classfy as the arm technics with elbow in deep bending .

Long bridge and short bridge is independent of power genertion or visualization.

****, what do they teach you in school?





The existance of slt kuen kuit is to instruct one the process and what exactly Needs to follow to practice slt.

Are words, the better teacher is the feeling.




So, the problem today is every one likes to create their own term, not willing to know what it is, not willing to look at it under physics .

Jimmy, you should stop talking physics you know...
Others do better than you, ask questions, stop teaching !


Everyone is happy because everyone called each others sifu or laushi or master or guru . But none of us can make the art works as it suppose to.


Students call me Poulpy

Girls call me : "Mon Chéri"


He calls me : "The silk specter"

[Hendrik]

Stay Humble, isn't Humility an asian sorta stuff? --------

Got nothing to do with humble. Facts of the Chinese tcma tradition is such.



Kung Fat... Don't like this, I try to get abs you know ! -------

That is your issue, you want to learn tcma, that is the culture.
It is a cheating if I don't tell you the truth of the culture.




I am ok if anyone create thier own style as Bruce lee. But, when it comes to classical tcma, stick with the facts is the way to go.

Ie. TST put his Niem Lik in YouTube makes it transparent what he means. So, no need to guess or get creative. Just stick with what he means. That makes life simple.

[Scott R. Brown]

This is really, really interesting. My experience with many skilled internal masters is that, my senses are being fooled. In one occasion, where my student was videoing me being pushed down by GM Wei (IYTC), what I felt my posture was, was indeed completely different from the videoed image.

The key to understanding these types of phenomena are repeated exposure to the action. With time and observation your perceptions become attuned to what is happening and then you will understand what is happening more completely.

On the other thread when you posted your vid of unseating your student, a knowing eye can discern where the break in his balance occurred that allowed you to unbalance him. While it is easier to see, in a vid, than feel the first time it occurs, with practice your student should be able to perceive exactly what is occurring and respond to neutral your action.


If one cannot describe the process to make it happen, then one don't know it and cannot reproduce it.

Unfortunately, the ability to describe what is happening is not the same thing as being able to do it.

Not many high caliber athletes understand the finer aspects of how they do what they do. They just follow their coaches and practice over and over again. Eventually, they get the 'feel' for what is correct. Then they no longer require an outside eye. They can tell by feel how their performance is.

Coaches, on the other hand often can describe how something is supposed to be performed, but are unable to do so themself. I refer you to Bella Karoli. He has taught many Olympic champions, yet he has never been an expert in performing on the balance beam, the uneven parallel bars, etc.

[imperialtaichi]

The key to understanding these types of phenomena are repeated exposure to the action. With time and observation your perceptions become attuned to what is happening and then you will understand what is happening more completely.

On the other thread when you posted your vid of unseating your student, a knowing eye can discern where the break in his balance occurred that allowed you to unbalance him. While it is easier to see, in a vid, than feel the first time it occurs, with practice your student should be able to perceive exactly what is occurring and respond to neutral your action.

I've been thrown repeated enough to know what's going on. When the issuer is skilful enough, you still get fooled.

[Scott R. Brown]

I've been thrown repeated enough to know what's going on. When the issuer is skilful enough, you still get fooled.

I didn't mean to imply you couldn't be fooled, only that repeated exposure will allow it to be less likely to occur. Although, that is presuming one has a reasonably equal skill level as the thrower. The greater the discrepancy in skill the less likely one can counter of course.

BTW, I did not make it clear in my original post, my comment was more general to the audience rather than to you in particular.

[poulperadieux]

You learn too wuch things for certain by youtube, get out a little, meet people...

[QUOTE]So, no need to guess or get creative. Just stick with what he means. That makes life simple.

Sorry, French here, need creativity...
Stick to an idea and put aside creativity seems too religious for me, I leave that way of thinking to you...

I just stick in Chi Sao.

And I actually met someone who teaches Niem Lik, unlike you I guess...

[imperialtaichi]

I didn't mean to imply you couldn't be fooled, only that repeated exposure will allow it to be less likely to occur. Although, that is presuming one has a reasonably equal skill level as the thrower. The greater the discrepancy in skill the less likely one can counter of course.

BTW, I did not make it clear in my original post, my comment was more general to the audience rather than to you in particular.

Agree. And understood. :)

[imperialtaichi]

Another interesting paper on developing power through the mind. Related to Nim Lik as well? May be yes, may be no?

http://lecerveau.mcgill.ca/flash/capsules/articles_pdf/Gaining_strength.pdf

And hey, this one is SCIENTIFIC and supported with DATA, Glenn!

[trubblman]

We French have a long martial history, and the more I discover it, the less I want to travel to find someone selling me nonsense.

What happened to the martial history of the French from 1890 to 1945?

;)

[Hendrik]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1217380&postcount=415

[GlennR]

What happened to the martial history of the French from 1890 to 1945?

;)


Bwahhahahah..... they got into running ;)

[poulperadieux]

Another interesting paper on developing power through the mind. Related to Nim Lik as well? May be yes, may be no?

http://lecerveau.mcgill.ca/flash/capsules/articles_pdf/Gaining_strength.pdf

And hey, this one is SCIENTIFIC and supported with DATA, Glenn!


Nice catch

[imperialtaichi]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1217380&postcount=415

Yes, yes, yes, machines, labs, physics etc. But he's not doing your interpretation of snake engine. Got NOTHING to do with you. Whether his "engine" works or not got NOTHING to do with whether your engine works or not. If you want to support your theories with data the "scientific" way then use yourself/your engine as test subject, not someone else's on a youtube clip that's not your.

[Hendrik]

He is, the data is force rise from ground. How force rise or flow from the leg to hand. Wcners who practice slt and ck develop that type of snake body or snake engine.

There is Hawkins Cheung talking on snake body, now Lui Ming Fei shows it in the lab. Me or not doesn't matter, it is the WCK snake engine. In fact, it doesn't have to be me. WCK is WCK. Unless one is not doing WCK.


Yes, yes, yes, machines, labs, physics etc. But he's not doing your interpretation of snake engine. Got NOTHING to do with you. Whether his "engine" works or not got NOTHING to do with whether your engine works or not. If you want to support your theories with data the "scientific" way then use yourself/your engine as test subject, not someone else's on a youtube clip that's not your.

[GlennR]

Yes, yes, yes, machines, labs, physics etc. But he's not doing your interpretation of snake engine. Got NOTHING to do with you. Whether his "engine" works or not got NOTHING to do with whether your engine works or not. If you want to support your theories with data the "scientific" way then use yourself/your engine as test subject, not someone else's on a youtube clip that's not your.

EXACTLY!

He cherry picks any old thing he finds and uses it as his "data"

Its like me researching elephants and using David Attenborough documentaries as my source!

[GlennR]

Another interesting paper on developing power through the mind. Related to Nim Lik as well? May be yes, may be no?

http://lecerveau.mcgill.ca/flash/capsules/articles_pdf/Gaining_strength.pdf

And hey, this one is SCIENTIFIC and supported with DATA, Glenn!

Just saw this John.

Havent read it yet but this appears to be proper research.

You see this Hendrik????

Its a REAL study

[imperialtaichi]

EXACTLY!

He cherry picks any old thing he finds and uses it as his "data"

Its like me researching elephants and using David Attenborough documentaries as my source!

Glenn, he's using David Attenborough as proof to his theory on Unicorns.

[jesper]

thats a good find imperialtaichi. going to have to study this one carefully.

Thanks

[poulperadieux]

He is, the data is force rise from ground. How force rise or flow from the leg to hand. Wcners who practice slt and ck develop that type of snake body or snake engine.

There is Hawkins Cheung talking on snake body, now Lui Ming Fei shows it in the lab. Me or not doesn't matter, it is the WCK snake engine. In fact, it doesn't have to be me. WCK is WCK. Unless one is not doing WCK.



So?

that's the purpose of some who call it niem lik and long brige energy, you call it snake energy, I call it Octopus mighty potato powaaa...


Who cares?

[LaRoux]

this is actually a well-described phenomenon; not only can u gain strength, u can increase flexibility as well as decrease pain with this sort of thing; the classic study of this sort of thing was with foul-shot throwing: a no-practice, a practice and a visualization group; the visualization group did almost as well as the practice post-test;

there is a lot of material of this nature here:
http://www.totalmotionrelease.com/researcharticles.html

When it comes to practice vs visualization, practice makes up at least 90% of skill. Visualization is a very minimal part of any kind of skill or strength related activity.

[GlennR]

North American Journal of Psychology, 2007, Vol. 9, No. 1 189-200
Mind Over Matter: Mental Training Increases Physical Strength
Erin M. Shackell and Lionel G. Standing
Bishop's University
This study tested whether mental training alone can produce a gain in muscular strength. Thirty male university athletes, including football, basketball and rugby players, were randomly assigned to perform mental training of their hip flexor muscles, to use weight machines to physically exercise their hip flexors, or to form a control group which received neither mental nor physical training. The hip strength of each group was
measured before and after training. Physical strength was increased by 24% through mental practice (p = .008). Strength was also increased through physical training, by 28%, but did not change significantly in the control condition. The strength gain was greatest among the football players given mental training. Mental and physical training produced similar decreases in heart rate, and both yielded a marginal reduction in systolic blood pressure. The results support the related findings of Ranganathan, Siemionow, Liu, Sahgal, and Yue (2004).


----------
PHYS THER
Vol. 85, No. 10, October 2005, pp. 1053-1060

Can Mental Practice Increase Ankle Dorsiflexor Torque?

Ben Sidaway and Amy (Robinson) Trzaska
B Sidaway, PT, PhD, is Professor, Department of Physical Therapy, Husson College, One College Cir, Bangor, ME 04401 (USA)
A Trzaska, PT, MPT, is Physical Therapist, Family Practice Center, Portland, Me. She was a student in the Department of Physical Therapy, Husson College, during data collection

Submitted September 27, 2004; Accepted March 22, 2005

Background and Purpose. Mental practice has been shown to beeffective in increasing the force production of the abductordigiti minimi muscle in the hand. The aim of this study wasto determine whether mental practice could produce strengthgains in the larger ankle dorsiflexor muscles, which are importantduring walking. Subjects. Twenty-four subjects were randomlyassigned to a physical practice group, a mental practice group,or a control group (8 subjects per group). Methods. In the practicegroups, subjects either physically or mentally practiced producingmaximal isometric contractions for 3 sets of 10 repetitions,3 times per week for 4 weeks. Changes in mean peak isometrictorque normalized to body weight and the resulting percentageof improvement were analyzed across the 3 groups. Results. Differencesin raw torque production after training in the 2 practice groupsresulted in significant percentages of improvement for the physicalpractice group (25.28%) and the mental practice group (17.13%),but not for the control group (–1.77%). The 2 practicegroups were not statistically different in their maximal torque-generatingcapacity after training. Discussion and Conclusion. These findingsshow that mental practice in people without impairments canlead to an increase in torque production similar to that producedby physical practice. Such a technique may prove to be a usefuladjunct to traditional treatment options aimed at increasingmuscle strength.

------
Res Q Exerc Sport. 2008 Sep;79(3):385-91.

Beating the bunker: the effect of PETTLEP imagery on golf bunker shot performance.

Smith D, Wright CJ, Cantwell C.
Department of Sport and Exercise Psychology, Manchester Metropolitan University, UK.

The aim of this study was to compare the effects of physical practice with PETTLEP-based (Physical, Environment, Task, Timing, Learning, Emotion and Perspective; Holmes & Collins, 2001) imagery and PETTLEP + physical practice interventions on golf bunker shot performance. Thirty-two male county- or international-level golfers were assigned to one of four groups; PETTLEP imagery, physical practice, PETTLEP + physical practice, or control. The PETTLEP imagery group imaged 15 bunker shots, their interventions incorporating PETTLEP components, such as physical, environment, and emotion, twice a week. The physical practice group physically performed their 15 bunker shots twice per week; the PETTLEP + physical practice group performed PETTLEP imagery once per week and physical practice once per week. Each group performed their respective tasks for 6 weeks. Pre- and posttests consisted of 15 bunker shots, with points awarded according to the ball proximity to the pin. All groups improved significantly (p < .01) from pre- to posttest, and the PETTLEP + physical practice group improved more (p < .05) than the PETTLEP and physical practice groups. However, there was no significant difference between the physical practice and PETTLEP groups (p > .05). Findings, therefore, support the effectiveness of PETTLEP in enhancing golf performance, especially when combined with physical practice.

So TST is onto something then......... you read that Hendrik??

[wingchunIan]

When it comes to practice vs visualization, practice makes up at least 90% of skill. Visualization is a very minimal part of any kind of skill or strength related activity.

Sorry pal but there is a wealth of research material undertaken by real, creditable scientists that says otherwise, an example of which was given above.
The challenge is that to make visualisation work you need to be trained in how to do it by someone who knows what they are doing and then it takes practice and perseverence, it isn't as simple as closing you eyes and seeing yourself doing something.

[Scott R. Brown]

Sorry pal but there is a wealth of research material undertaken by real, creditable scientists that says otherwise, an example of which was given above.
The challenge is that to make visualisation work you need to be trained in how to do it by someone who knows what they are doing and then it takes practice and perseverence, it isn't as simple as closing you eyes and seeing yourself doing something.

Hmmmm, How about sorry pal read the above post by tgy!

I doubt many would argue against practice makes perfect, but in the above test it is pretty clear that 24% improvement from people not trained according to your standards is pretty significant, don't you think?

[Scott R. Brown]

based on the above studies and others (I didn't list all the ones, just three that made the point most obviously), it seems that visualization of a non-trained nature did almost as well as practice, but that the trained visualization was as good as physical practice;

anecdotally, Jim Thorpe reportedly would use visualization to a great degree to achieve high performance levels, even those that he hadn't done previously - there's one story when, on a boat on the way to some competition, he was sitting deep in thought, someone asked him what he was doing, he replied something like, "training to break my record for the high jump" (something to that effect - I'm paraphrasing)

this is not to say that you can "think" yourself strong / skilled enough to do anything without ever doing any physical practice, but the impact of visualization is not insignificant...

Well, I have used this method myself numerous times with very good effect.

And of course, I have no formal magical training either!

[Vajramusti]

based on the above studies and others (I didn't list all the ones, just three that made the point most obviously), it seems that visualization of a non-trained nature did almost as well as practice, but that the trained visualization was as good as physical practice;

anecdotally, Jim Thorpe reportedly would use visualization to a great degree to achieve high performance levels, even those that he hadn't done previously - there's one story when, on a boat on the way to some competition, he was sitting deep in thought, someone asked him what he was doing, he replied something like, "training to break my record for the high jump" (something to that effect - I'm paraphrasing)

this is not to say that you can "think" yourself strong / skilled enough to do anything without ever doing any physical practice, but the impact of visualization is not insignificant...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

True and proven.
Originally Posted by imperialtaichi View Post
Another interesting paper on developing power through the mind. Related to Nim Lik as well? May be yes, may be no?

http://lecerveau.mcgill.ca/flash/cap...g_strength.pdf

Some of the other researchers listed in the literature review section of the paper-pointing to similar findings-were/are members of the kinesiology department at my university- Arizona State.
Landers has done much empirical research on sports psychology.That department has been one of the top 3 in the country. Gary Krahenbuhl also has shown empirically why excellence in one sport does not lead to excellence in other sports. That is where Jim Thorpe was so exceptionally amazing.
Jordan despite his efforts did not make it in baseball or even golf.

One of the first consistent field goal kickers kicking soccer style (University of Oklahoma) practiced a combination of meditation and visualization.

Jim Thorpe was simply incredible and amazing.

[Happy Tiger]

So TST is onto something then......... you read that Hendrik??:):):):):)

[Hendrik]

In one hand you preach MMA, in one hand you preach day dream


Here is onto something too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROdgeF0d6Ho




Sorry, no Niem Lik in physics lab even with top taiji master in china.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLmWyYs8Hu0





So TST is onto something then......... you read that Hendrik??

[GlennR]

In one hand you preach MMA, in one hand you preach day dream

No, im a martial arsist and, unlike you, actually practice what i preach and i only preach what i SEE work.

I'll ask you once again, youre happy to belittle TST but can you do what he can.
That is, being 80yo and being able to produce the poer and control that he does?

Well can you??

He DOES something.... what can you do ??




Here is onto something too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROdgeF0d6Ho


Sorry, no Niem Lik in physics lab even with top taiji master in china.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLmWyYs8Hu0

You are a dead set idiot

John and others have put up proper scientific reports in the field of visualisation (incidentally, i bet you didnt read them) which have been done in an internationally accepted standard.... even chinese scientists would adhere the the methods shown.... and you put up youtube clips from a TV show!!!!


Personally, i think you should be bannned using the term scientific, as you just dont seem to have any grasp on what it is and how it is used to prove/disprove things.

Youtube cllips are not science!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, i guess robinhood will jump in with some nonsense as well now

[wingchunIan]

Hmmmm, How about sorry pal read the above post by tgy!

I doubt many would argue against practice makes perfect, but in the above test it is pretty clear that 24% improvement from people not trained according to your standards is pretty significant, don't you think?

What makes you think the individuals in the study weren't trained in how to visualise? Do you seriously think that people trying to conduct a meaningful comparison decided to just say to the subjects just close your eyes and imagine yourself doing it, see you later. Having read several such studies the subjects are invariably coached in visualisation techniques and supported through the process of what is typically a visualisation of a relatively simple action. The results are almost always startling and demonstrate the power of the mind, but it is naieve to believe that you can get results simply and is what leads to so many people being dismissive of the subject when they try and fail to replicate the results.

[anerlich]

Most of the popular references I've read on the subject indicate that visualisation for performance enhancement is very much a learned skill, arguably requiring at least as much discipline and investment of time as a course of meditation, in fact some argue that mindfulness meditation is an integral part of a successful sports psychology regime.

Not to diss the studies - I respect science, rather more I think than Hendrik and his sycophants - but like many things, the results you achieve are proportional to the work you put in.

[anerlich]

No, im a martial arsist

Now, i guess robinhood will jump in with some nonsense as well now

I don't think you are a martial arsist.

Hendrik and the 'hood, now they're different stories

[GlennR]

I don't think you are a martial arsist.

Hendrik and the 'hood, now they're different stories

Well picked up........... though im thinking i dont mind the term

[imperialtaichi]

Here is onto something too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROdgeF0d6Ho


Hendrik (and perhaps Robinhood too), do you know what's happening there?
Have you experienced it first hand, explained to you first hand, taught by masters first hand, and be able to do it under the same circumstances? (My answer is YES to all of the above).

Or are you theorizing from your literary research?

[imperialtaichi]

I don't think you are a martial arsist.

Hendrik and the 'hood, now they're different stories

I am also an arsist, amongst other things. :D

[Robinhood]

Hendrik (and perhaps Robinhood too), do you know what's happening there?
Have you experienced it first hand, explained to you first hand, taught by masters first hand, and be able to do it under the same circumstances? (My answer is YES to all of the above).

Or are you theorizing from your literary research?

Ya, not much, real.

Here is clip of a reporter that wondered why everyone was jumping around.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFq-tuOAfW8

I heard that she was disassociated for her actions.

[hunt1]

Hendrik (and perhaps Robinhood too), do you know what's happening there?
Have you experienced it first hand, explained to you first hand, taught by masters first hand, and be able to do it under the same circumstances? (My answer is YES to all of the above).

Or are you theorizing from your literary research?

same thing as here


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

and here


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmVfHZgHMUk

[imperialtaichi]

Ya, not much, real.

Here is clip of a reporter that wondered why everyone was jumping around.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFq-tuOAfW8

I heard that she was disassociated for her actions.

You see, a lot of "Internal" or "Qi" demonstrations are based on controlling the subject's COG, as well as utilising his reactions. This woman could do all these weird and wonderful things on her students ONLY because they know how to work with her to give her their COG and feed her the right reactions.

Since these methods would NOT work unless you have profound control of the COG; when dealing with an opponent or an untrained participant (as in the reporter), you will NEVER produce the kind of bouncing or jumping as with the students. In this woman's case, she is foolish to think that she can produce the same effect on the reporter. She had probably NEVER crossed hands with an unco-operative opponent.

The easy part is bouncing the student; the real skill is in the capturing of the COG of a live opponent.

In the hands of an internal expert who has real fighting experience, it is done on an instant. Again, it would rarely be as spectacular as demonstrations.

Hendrik often use these type of videos to support his arguments, but because he had never been on the receiving end of these type of things, he doesn't really know what exactly is going on.

There is not magic in the real world.

[imperialtaichi]

same thing as here


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

and here


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmVfHZgHMUk

EXACTLY my point. OK, the first clip is a bit of a joke, but Hendrik would use some of the "Internal Masters" clip to support his argument on snake engine, when he doesn't even know what is going on.

That's what I ALWAYS said, you wont know you are living a fantasy unless you test it, and test it, and test it more. Just feeling good about the way you flap your arms does not mean that it works in real life.

And the second clip, Derren Brown (a total genius) had most probably done some work on the guy prior to the demonstration. He often admits that he is a liar (all part of his skills to confuse the subject), but he is honest about his lying. ;-)

[YouKnowWho]

Someone made the following statement in another forum and I think he has the right idea.

"I think empty force 靈空勁 (LKJ) only works when there is a sender and a receiver, without a receiver, it is empty 不靈了."

Since not everybody can be your "receiver", it has no combat value at all.

[Hendrik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0714IbwC3HA



EXACTLY my point. OK, the first clip is a bit of a joke, but Hendrik would use some of the "Internal Masters" clip to support his argument on snake engine, when he doesn't even know what is going on.

That's what I ALWAYS said, you wont know you are living a fantasy unless you test it, and test it, and test it more. Just feeling good about the way you flap your arms does not mean that it works in real life.

And the second clip, Derren Brown (a total genius) had most probably done some work on the guy prior to the demonstration. He often admits that he is a liar (all part of his skills to confuse the subject), but he is honest about his lying. ;-)

[poulperadieux]

EXACTLY my point. OK, the first clip is a bit of a joke, but Hendrik would use some of the "Internal Masters" clip to support his argument on snake engine, when he doesn't even know what is going on.

That's what I ALWAYS said, you wont know you are living a fantasy unless you test it, and test it, and test it more. Just feeling good about the way you flap your arms does not mean that it works in real life.

And the second clip, Derren Brown (a total genius) had most probably done some work on the guy prior to the demonstration. He often admits that he is a liar (all part of his skills to confuse the subject), but he is honest about his lying. ;-)

What derren brown does, I tried it on 10 wrestlers on night soon after I learned Hypnosis, I worked like a charm with little preparation, and it was funny to see some fall after receiving a mimicked Kaméhaméha.

Here I explain a bit how it's done :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBVnqHud7Jo

[GlennR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0714IbwC3HA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFkzRNyygfk

[imperialtaichi]

Someone made the following statement in another forum and I think he has the right idea.

"I think empty force 靈空勁 (LKJ) only works when there is a sender and a receiver, without a receiver, it is empty 不靈了."

Since not everybody can be your "receiver", it has no combat value at all.

Haha, I like that.

[Robinhood]

What derren brown does, I tried it on 10 wrestlers on night soon after I learned Hypnosis, I worked like a charm with little preparation, and it was funny to see some fall after receiving a mimicked Kaméhaméha.

Here I explain a bit how it's done :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBVnqHud7Jo

What else did you get them to do for you .? :D

[Scott R. Brown]

What derren brown does, I tried it on 10 wrestlers on night soon after I learned Hypnosis, I worked like a charm with little preparation, and it was funny to see some fall after receiving a mimicked Kaméhaméha.

Here I explain a bit how it's done :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBVnqHud7Jo

Hey! Is that you?

That was cool that you came clean on the trick of it! I really appreciate it!

I only have one thing to say though.....

SPEAK IN ENGLISH!!!!:):D

[Scott R. Brown]

First let me say that I appreciate your time in training and your Gung Fu knowledge. Empty force does not have to involve contact. Footwork itself can create an empty force which affects the opponent just as well, without contact. It has to do with positioning oneself in such a way that the opponent has to respond in a singular way that compromises them at the core. An engagement is lost at the core, Chung Mo channel that runs through the center of the body. When Chung Mo is 'bent', the opponent is compromised. It takes a lot of training, sparring, and hard knocks to learn to instinctively guide the opponent without touching them. This is the level of engagement where "thought becomes action." All the best.
SKM

This still requires a somewhat compliant opponent. This is done in Aikido all the time. This is how all the no touch stuff is done. It requires a compliant opponent who will attack in a certain manner. You create the weakness/opening and they attack the weakness/opening and you can psychologically lead them.

While this is still possible to accomplish with the general public, it is very very hit and miss. And it is less likely to occur against a well trained fighter, and a totally ignorant person. Since the ignorant person does not have any pre-programed behaviors in the form of attacks and responses.

[poulperadieux]

What else did you get them to do for you .? :D


I used to kick their ass, actually I still do sometime (they want me to do some catch Cameo as "The Mighty Octopus" a Wrestler that uses wing chun..), as they worked at the same time as me.

And Maybe we'll do it again, as I negociate a common room for training in the next days !

[poulperadieux]

hey! Is that you?

That was cool that you came clean on the trick of it! I really appreciate it!

I only have one thing to say though.....

speak in english!!!!:):d


:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

[YouKnowWho]

Empty force does not have to involve contact. Footwork itself can create an empty force which affects the opponent just as well, without contact.

I know exactly what you are talking about here. When someone is good and move in toward you, you can feel energy coming toward you, If he steps too close to you, you may feel that your balance is already lost even if he has not touch you yet. In order for your opponent to be able to do that to you, he has to convince you that he is good either by his reputation, or by his ability. That part of the "convincing" is the key here. If he can't covince you, you will never be his "receiver".

Here is a simple example. If I hold a sword and use the sharp end to attack your eyes. Even my sword tip hasn't touch your eyeball, your body will fall back. The reason is simple, you have fear that my sharp end may touch your eye. I have to create that "fear" on you first. If a beautiful girl open her arms and run toward you, your body will move in instead of move back. Why? There is no "fear" invlove there.

[poulperadieux]

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d


Yeah, I do suck in "talking" english in this video...

But come on, two asian models on the grass.
A geek dream.

[Wayfaring]

But come on, two asian models on the grass.
A geek dream.

You are definitely a serial rapist's pipe dream there, ace.

[poulperadieux]

You are definitely a serial rapist's pipe dream there, ace.


You want to talk about it?

[Wayfaring]

You want to talk about it?

Not really.

[Happy Tiger]

One of my favorite examples of 'nim lik' structure in Siu Lum. IMHO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfunQGum8dU