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sing fu
09-19-2000, 04:44 AM
Depending on the character of the school you study at, ettiquette for bowing in/out of class, training with fellow students and so forth really differs.

My father studied with some fellow retired members of the local chinese community at their homes, and ettiquette would start with tea.

Not having studied in a larger school before, I wonder if we could discuss the way classes are formally started and ended in different schools?
Also, what ettiquette do you use when pairing off with fellow students?

Thanks in advance!

Water Dragon
09-19-2000, 04:50 AM
I generally greet teachers with a firm, friendly handshake and a sincere greeting. In my experience, the Chinese find this acceptable and appropriate. It's usually the goofy white guys in silk pajamas that want you to bow to them.

I also shake my sparring partners hand before and after going at it.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

sing fu
09-19-2000, 08:00 AM
Haha! I'm with you water dragon! What I'm looking for are any ceremonies for starting and finishing classes in various schools.

I'm assuming a majority of folks are practitioners of nankuen, and would like to compare similiarities if possible.

Once again, thanks for playing!

house of chang
09-19-2000, 08:22 AM
at my school we salute on and off the training floor as well as saluting in and out with fellow students. the salute starts with the right hand in a fist and the left hand closing over the right (this is started at waist level, hands in front), then you bring your hands up to your heart and extend them towards either the school symbol (coming on and off the floor) or towards the fellow student while simultaneously extending the right leg (similar appearance to a right medium cat stance with the legs) then the salute is completed by pulling your leg back, your hands back and back down to your sides. i attempted to explain this as simply as possible but it appears to not read well. sorry, i did my best. our salutes are meant to show respect for our training hall and respect for our fellow students. that's the extent of it; there's no bowing to any statues or to our instructor (we salute him at the beginning and end of each class).

house of chang
09-19-2000, 08:25 AM
oh yeah, and as for saluting fellow students, it's only done when we're either sparring together or working techniques together. O

tiet_que
09-19-2000, 01:47 PM
In general we bow/salute to our sifu when we enter and leave the school. We bow to all students. We bow to the alter when entering and leaving the school.

When class is about to start we all line up and bow to sifu then the alter.. Same thing at the end of class.

Tiet Que

Robinf
09-19-2000, 03:53 PM
We bow toward the alter upon enter and leaving the kwoon. We also bow to sifu. I usually make eye contact with him and say "hello, sir,", then bow. We also bow to each other in the class when we spar, or when someone has been working out with us, or has been training us. Also, when we spar, at the end of the match, we shake hands after we bow to each other.

JWTAYLOR
09-19-2000, 04:10 PM
First, we slightly bow before we get on or off the training floor. Class is formally opened with a long bow in for the advanced class, and a short bow in for the begginers. The bow tells a story, and is a good reminder of what the art should be used for. We perform the same bow we began with in closing the class.

When greeting or leaving any instructor we salute and say "Os".
Wehn sparring, you are expected to both bow and shake hands with your opponent before and after a match. Our school generally gives the opponent a good hug too. (As much as to use their weight to stand as it is a gesture /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )
When pairing off for technqique work we salute briskly to each other signaling we're ready.

JW

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

DragonStudios
09-19-2000, 06:12 PM
I recently (2 years ago) started up my own school for combat-oriented Tai Chi Chuan. One of our first problems was a lack of respect from our students during class. They were very good at calling us Sifu, and bowing to each other before sparring or hand-pushing, but when I would lecture the advanced students would start talking to each other. We disclipined them with push-ups and the like, but still had a lot of complaints from beginning students. I also had problems with them coming late and entering noisily en-masse.

My partner has 18 years of martial arts training from many many Japanese styles (me teaching him Taiji was the first Chinese style he had ever learned). Most of his Japanese training was very formal.

I learned Taiji through the University of Utah from a laid back instructor who didn't get into any ceremony at all. But we all gave him our undivided attention and respect, since we were already in an environment where it was expected.

We had never wanted to get into a whole lot of pomp and circumstance, but we couldn't afford to lose any beginning students or to kick out the advanced students, so something had to be done. I read on Wong Kiew Kit's website his guidelines for showing respect (which is what an opening and closing ceremony essentially represents). He stated that most kung fu instructors don't really care whether you respect them or your dog more. Why you should show respect is that it helps with your learning in the course by developing a disciplined mind.

I adapted these rigid guidelines for our school and spent a good hour one day going over them with all of my students, and haven't had much of a problem since. If you're interested, these guidelines are posted on my site: Dragon Studios (http://www.dragon-studios.net).

Our loose opening ceremony comes after our warm-ups (since I still have students who need to buy a watch). I am also a Hatha Yoga instructor, and we've adopted the Namaste (I honor the divine in you) greeting into our bows. Part of warm-ups includes the Yoga series, "Salutation to the Sun" which ends with a "Namaste" bow. Once this bow is given, class has officially begun and all students should be in a disciplined mind-set. At the end of class we all gather in a circle and "Namaste" bow-out as one.

Without going outside,
you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window,
you may see the ways of heaven.
The ****her you go, the less you know.
--Lao Tsu

GLW
09-19-2000, 06:33 PM
In my class, I keep it informal but there is a level of respect that is expected and non-negotiable. I have never had a problem with the class as a whole on this but with one or two select individuals it has been a problem. With them, the less respect and the more disruptive they are, the less attention from me they get. They also find that their classmates resent them quite a bit.

In my teacher's class, respect and decorum was expected. Martial etiquette was discussed but it was the senior student's job to make it happen. If there was a problem, the senior students got the talking to. Also, if there was a problem, my teacher would just frown and leave. This only happened once...since everyone knew our teacher would rather not show up at all than deal with a class that did not know how to behave.

This one time, the lesson that came out about etiquette stressed "You show me respect because you respect yourself. If you respect yourself, it is easy to respect others."

Fu-Pow
02-11-2002, 02:14 PM
Interesting topic came up the other day in class. A new student was asking me about the whole SiHing/SiDai relationship.

I explained it as best I could but then I was hit with a question I didn't have a good answer to.

The student asked me "if one students begins before another student but the newer student works harder and surpasses the older student in skill, does the SiHing/Si Dai relationship become reversed."

For example lets say I've been studying for 10 years and I attend class one day a week and a newer student trains for 4 years and trains 5 days a week. Who is the SiHing?

Then it occurred to me that the reason this question would come up is that there is kind of flaw in the system.

As I understand it, in ancient China everyone started out as "outdoor students." Your teacher would be addressed as "Lao Si" which is a generic term for teacher.

If you trained hard and consistently you would become an "indoor student" or a disciple. At this point you would go through a "Bai Si" ceremony and you would accepted into the "family."

At this point you would begin to call your teacher SiFu. You would be "Si Hing" to the "outdoor students" and newer disciples and "Si Dai" to anyone that became a disciple before you did.

This relationship is based around the "Bai Si" ceremony. And once you are in the family this relationship is immutable.

The problem seems to be that many instructors have done away with the "Bai Si" ceremony and so it becomes unclear as to who is the SiHing and who is the Si Dai.

Any thoughts on this? And if there are any gaps in my understanding of Chinese culture please let me know.

Ray Pina
02-11-2002, 02:31 PM
Anyone who has been training where I train longer than myself I regard as my senior, regardless of age, gender or skill.

They will always get that respect.

However, if and when we face off, I will give them the most curtious salute, fight them like I would fight any other, and then salute them the same regardless of the outcome.

Titles are only titles. When it comes to skill everyone pretty much knows where everyone stands. Most importantly is being honest with oneself and what needs to be adressed. As for respect, I give people who came in after me the same respect, all most, as seniors. We're all in the same place trying to improve and for that alone they get my respect.

As for seniors, here's an example. I blew a knee out a few months ago. It was and still bothers me soemtimes. But when the bell rings, seven flights down, I'll be ****ed if any of the seniors are going to make that trip. I'm a junior, I'll do it and I'll do it gladly.

They've earned the write to stay doing what they were doing.

This is just how I view it. Maybe I'm old fashioned that way.

Water Dragon
02-11-2002, 02:31 PM
I might catch some flack for this one, but who cares!

If the person is better than you, respect them as they have something to teach.

If the person is not as good as you but train hards, respect them for their effort.

If the person is just taking up space trying to be cool, I have no respect for that.

Anyhow, that's how I view martial arts relationships.

Marshdrifter
02-11-2002, 02:32 PM
I have heard (on the Wing Chun forum) that it never reverses. It's
based off of the length of time with the school. If the Sidai
practices a lot and passes up the Sihing in skill, the Sihing is still
Sihing.

I suppose it would be in good form for the Sihing to acknowledge
the Sidai is more skillful, but I don't know if it's an actual
etiquette rule or not.

rubthebuddha
02-11-2002, 02:43 PM
marsh' comment holds true in my case. in my wt family, anyon who's been studying longer will always be my elder. there's a girl at my school who's maybe 15 (i'm 24) and a couple levels behind me, but she'll always be my sije. also, when i get my assistant instructor license and thus line up with them instead of the regular students, she will still be my sije.

it's just one of those things that was, is and always will be for me.

however, familial ties and how they're viewed differ within familys. i think fu-pow's situation is quite neat. i like the idea of an admittance ceremony. we have one of our own, but it's kind of unique and self-made within the school.

ShaolinTiger00
02-11-2002, 02:43 PM
E fist summed it up. its merely ettiquete and it dictates the senior student is sihing. talent or skill is no matter.

Godzilla
02-11-2002, 02:53 PM
I agree with Water Dragon.

Godzilla

EARTH DRAGON
02-11-2002, 03:13 PM
Sishung/Sihing, senoir student for reason of senoirity not rank
Shrfu/Sifu, teacher/ father
Sijo, female student kungfu sister
Sigung , equal kung fu brother
Si yi, sifu's sifu
Tudi, student to a sifu

DelicateSound
02-11-2002, 03:18 PM
I respect all of my fellow students. Even the weakest beginner has something he can teach you, if you are willing to learn.

Fu-Pow
02-11-2002, 03:50 PM
I think that you guys may have missed my point to some degree.

What I'm getting at is not necessarily the time that one has been affiliated with a school, but the time that one has devoted to training at the school.

I think the traditional way is that if you don't make a commitment to training then you aren't invited into the "family." So there is no conflict. (You've probably heard the story of the Hung Gar students doing horse stance for 3 hrs a day for a year before they ever learned in forms.) But there are people that haven't made a commitment take long periods off and then return.

Here's an example of what I mean. There is a guy at my school who has trained for maybe a year more than me. He often doesn't train with the class, dissappears for long periods of time without training and generally knows less form than I do and quite frankly does them worse.

His behavior as a student is fair at best. I find it doubtful that if we had the Bai Si ceremony he would ever be in invited.

On the other hand I am an " instructor " at the school, train/teach consistently 2-3 nights a week for the last 2-3 years. Plus I do Taiji 2 hrs a week on the side.

Is this guy still my SiHing?

Wongsifu
02-11-2002, 04:12 PM
this is the same problem i had at one point , from what i actually understand fully is that sihing actually means nothing but older brother, in the sense that as you said if he was invited in through the ceremony and then he brought you to the master you would call him sihing if you became closed door because he is your older brother.

My sifu regularly calls his training buddies brothers as there were like 4 of them and they were the only students of his sifu. Also ive heard other sifu's refer to my teacher as my father. So its all quite inceestiously confusing:D

nowadays though some people take the word sihing and make it mean instructor... we used to have our teacher at wc called sifu and the 3 instructors as sihing.

Also technically in the good ole days if some guy trained for 1 year longer than you you would call him sihing because he could kick your ass , there is no way back then that the sifu would let his top students waste away like nowadays were they come to class once a week.

Lastly i still call my 1st instructor sihing , even though i may be better than him now , out of pure respect because he introduced me to martial arts , he was a sihing in the real sense of the word.

ShaolinTiger00
02-11-2002, 04:25 PM
fu pow,

Yes he is still your sihing. this is pretty simple. sihing doesn't mean one who is more skilled than the beginner. its just someone who is in the family longer.

I'm sure there are many people who have a worthless older brother, but the fact is he is still your older brother and part of the family. yeah you call him sihing (a "title" but not very significant) but he knows you can put it to him and so does your sifu.

Fu-Pow
02-11-2002, 04:35 PM
Also technically in the good ole days if some guy trained for 1 year longer than you you would call him sihing because he could kick your ass , there is no way back then that the sifu would let his top students waste away like nowadays were they come to class once a week.

Finally, someone who gets my point!!!

Yes, this problem is largely the fault of Sifu for not riding lazy students. But don't get me wrong I'm not trashing my Sifu. It is just that sometimes I think our school might be better (ie more efficient) if it was a bit more traditional.

There are things that I like about breaking with tradition and having a laid back Sifu but you don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak!!!!

Some rules are there for a reason and it just causes confusion if you get rid of them altogether. Why reinvent the wheel?

Nexus
02-11-2002, 04:46 PM
Fu-Pow, just because he is your sihing, does not mean that you should for any reason pretend you are lesser than him while he is around. You have the absolute right to be as brilliant as you wish, and in his presence you need not hide that brilliance. If he is not as commited as you are, and perhaps not as brilliant in his training, than that's his loss, but you do not need to lower yourself to his level when your around him to make him feel as if he deserves to be your equal. Show him your brilliance and greatness in your commitment to training and it may have the affect of inspiring him to become more involved.

- Nexus

JasBourne
02-11-2002, 04:49 PM
The whole tradition came out of a much different society than the one we live in now. We no longer know (or are related to) everyone in our village, 99 times out of a hundred we don't even know the names of our neighbors. The majority of MA practicioners do not (usually simply because they cannot) structure their entire lives around their training halls and training time, and do not make the others in their training hall their sole social circle. So the idea of 'family' in the kwoon is not what it used to be.

The concept of 'elder' is likewise not real popular in our society, nor does it conform to the earlier standards. At one time, the idea of revering one's elders for the knowledge they possessed could mean quite literally the difference between life and death ("grandpa! The frost killed all the cows and the crop is a total loss! What do we do??" "Don't worry, I remember the frost of '34..." etc). Now, our attitude is that the only thing old age does is make you more of the same (i.e. if you are a jerk, age will only make you an old jerk).

So maybe it IS time to revisit these "relational labels". I am not going to automatically give respect to someone who trains maybe once a week and is way behind me in skill, just because s/he took up the style before I did.

Something my granny taught me: respect is earned, every time. Perhaps we should stop supporting "entitlement" and start supporting "skill earned through hard work over time". ;)

Fu-Pow
02-11-2002, 05:33 PM
Hmmm...you bring up some interesting points JasBourne.

So lets take a look at today and yesterday.....

On one hand we have tradtional martial arts which were developed over 1000's of years primarily for the battlefield or for the goal of self-preservation. Many times the training was kept with in a village or a literal family. The attitude of the practitioners was very serious because it was literally a matter of life and death. Before a teacher would show you any real technique you spend long hours doing seemingly dull and painful excercises over and over again. This served two purposes 1) To make sure you were of good character and were not going to go around using your kung fu on innocent victims (or your teacher) and 2) to build the rudimentary strength and stamina to excel in MA's. At the end of the trial period you were accepted into the "family" where you would be shown actual techniques to use in combat.

Although this sounds cliched it has been repeated over and over again in so many stories, movies and books there must be some validity to it. Some teachers still train this way.


Fast forward to modern day MA's.

With the advent of the gun Kung Fu has little real street value. Although you might know 100 forms the chance that you'll ever get to apply any of the knowledge in battle is very low.
Aside from the occasional bar fight, the main "battlefield" of kung fu is now sparring matches with rules that prevent the practitioners from becoming maimed or killed. It is rarely now a "life and death" situation. With the rare occasion teachers are much more lenient in how they instruct because 1) they don't want their students to quit 2) because it is not a life or death situation. Students can simply show up when they want (as their schedule dictates) because they no longer depend on MA's to defend themselves. If the student goes out and kills somebody they go to jail and if the instructor wants to defend himself from his student he can go down to walmart and by a .22. The Bai Si ceremony where you have to be accepted to the family goes to the wayside because the atmosphere is so much more lacksidasical.

So let me ask you a question which atmosphere breeds better kung fu?

These are, of course, extreme views but you see where I'm going here.

Nexus
02-11-2002, 05:39 PM
Where you are going with it, is simply to prove a point to make your own situation seem more comforting to yourself. That of course has nothing to do with the spirit of martial arts, which resides on the individual, and not on the mainstream society. Ask yourself what it is you are trying to bring forth, you already know the answers, you don't have questions, you have confusions.

Frustration is key in progressing in any art form, as we want to work through frustration rather than alleviate it. A thread like this which is formed to prove a point is an attempt to alleviate ones frustration, rather than work through it, and so one then misses the Aha experience that they receive when they go with the flow and work through the difficult and frustrating times.

Of course if this was clear and and such, and you already were applying this in mind and were simply curious then feel free to discard it.

- Nexus

Fu-Pow
02-11-2002, 05:58 PM
Nexus-

I think you might have missed where I'm coming from. To my knowledge my school does NOT have the Bai Si ceremony. So I'm not putting down anyone else I'm just airing my concern.

JasBourne
02-11-2002, 07:50 PM
Back from practice (it was GOOD tonight!), some interesting ideas on this thread now...

Fu-pow, I can dig it where you're coming from, but I don't think you are going to solve a societal ill by insiting on the observance of a ritual that is not supported by that same society...

Not saying don't observe the old traditions if that's what floats your boat, but how does kissing some guy's butt that you don't actually respect, simply because he started studying your style before you did, make for better kungfu? I would think forcing people to be hypocrites through this kind of peer pressure only leads to further disfunctionality in an already highly disfunctional world.

Wouldn't a person be better served by being free to give respect to those they truly respect? And would not that same structure force others to get better in order to earn respect, instead of having it given to them through no real merit of their own?

In either case, the issue does nothing to address the lack of 'life or death urgency' you cite as being necessary to good kungfu. Again, that is a function of our society - we are, quite simply, a much safer and calmer world than we used to be.

:)

Jimbo
02-11-2002, 09:33 PM
Not to get too far off topic, but...

A student coming into the school to train only once a week by itself does not necessarily mean he/she is a lazy student, IF that student trains daily or a lot during the week on his/her own. This would really only apply to a student who has been doing kung fu for a long time already, before his schedule caused him to only attend his school once a week.

There are some students who go to every class but just go through the motions in a lax and undisciplined manner. They may keep up with the class because they learn to cheat on the movements. So even though such students are always at the school, sometimes you see them year after year and hardly notice any improvement at all. You get out of training what you put in, and if you're not investing your best efforts it becomes the principle of "garbage in, garbage out."

I remember in the school I trained at in Taiwan, if a person started a day earlier or years earlier he was always you senior, because there was no grading system, so the old way was followed, even if you exceeded his level.

In the States, where many schools have testing and gradings, it seems who started earlier is less relevant, and someone coming in later can become the sihing if he surpasses the grade of the earlier student.

Jim

Richie
02-12-2002, 01:53 AM
I always regard my seniors as seniors. They are my older KF brothers so thats what they will always be. It doesn't matter if I become better skillwise.

Galadriel
02-12-2002, 03:09 AM
Do you call your sihing's/sijai's by their name or by their title??


Galadriel

Marshdrifter
02-12-2002, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by Galadriel
Do you call your sihing's/sijai's by their name or by their title??
I address them by their name, although I will sometimes refer to
them in anecdotes as, for example, Sihing Bob. This sort of falls
into my standard anecdote naming convention where people earn
the title that shows their relationship to me (e.g. Coworker Andy).

OTOH, My Sifu is usually addressed as "Sifu" and is usually refered
to as "My Sifu" in anecdotes and references, except when with
other classmates, in which case we refer to him by his name.

Ray Pina
02-12-2002, 09:48 AM
Fu Pow, let me say this about your question concerning time training.

I've been training with my master for almost exactly a year now.

In that time I try to make it to every class, if I miss for work or what not I train at home but try to make it at least once a week.

All that time I have met one of my sifu's disciples twice -- he lives in Europe, London I believe. When he showed up, he was dress sharp, the whole nine, nice shoes, ect.

He didn't do much.

Is he still my senior?

Of coarse! Besides the fact that he can put me through the wall, he has spent who knows how much time with my sifu. Just because he is not there physically, doesn't mean he is not there in spirit (doing his thing in Europe, progressing, ect.).

Most off all though, I don't try to get caught up in such politics or anything. I give everybody my respect, and I cover all grounds that way.

Of coarse, there are always those fellow juniors who will tell me its like this or like that or that I should slow down and not punch so hard. Fine. I agree, stop, smile and continue at their pace.

Let them say what they want. Sooner or later we'll be in the ring and the time spent doing what should be getting done will reveal itself.

[Censored]
02-12-2002, 12:29 PM
So let me ask you a question which atmosphere breeds better kung fu?

Imagine your school rejects anyone who is unwilling or unable to train for 6 hours a week. Will this raise the average level in your school? Probably.

Now imagine the school rejects anyone who is unwilling or unable to train for 6 hours a day. Will this raise the average level in the school? Yes. But will they let YOU in the door? :(

If you don't want to spend time training with relatively lazy people, it's your prerogative. But be thankful your teacher is less selfish then you are. ;)

Ray Pina
02-12-2002, 02:39 PM
Well said.

The most important atmosphere is the one between the student's two ears. I'm young, but I've seen it already. Good or bad, you can tell who will be good ... just by their attitude.

Fu-Pow
02-12-2002, 06:38 PM
Some of you have gotten my point, some of you still haven't.

Paul
02-12-2002, 08:26 PM
I don't think you have much of a point.

Nexus
02-13-2002, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by Nexus
Where you are going with it, is simply to prove a point to make your own situation seem more comforting to yourself.



Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Some of you have gotten my point, some of you still haven't.

You aren't even being honest with yourself about why you posted the thread in the first place. Of course the solution to the problem is not in the system changing, but in you yourself changing. You must ask yourself how you can change to meet the criteria that you would be most comfortable with in the situation you are in. If you are as serious as you seem to be in truly solving the problem then I will give you replies in a sincere way, even if they come off harsh. ;)

- Nexus

joedoe
02-13-2002, 03:23 AM
Does it really matter how long you have trained or how often you train relative to anyone else? You should respect every one of your training brothers and sisters. It doesn't matter if you are better/faster/more experienced/more skilled, you can always learn something off someone else, even if it is how not to do something.

shaolinboxer
02-13-2002, 07:49 AM
The social/political structure of kung fu schools has nothing to do with skill, and it never really has.

I find this to be very frustrating...so much so that I have searched deliberately to find a school where skill levels matched the political structure.

I think a lot of the frustration comes from how we observe each other's technique and how we justify our own technique.

Half of the problem with these traditionally structures enviroments is actually giving a s h i t about them.

unixfudotnet
11-12-2004, 06:59 AM
From reading an article talking about it in the December 2004 issue, the topic of Chinese Martial Arts Etiquette in America was brought up / touched on (it was posted on the schools bulletin board).

From talking with a sifu at the school, the problem I said is not the lack of people not following etiquette rules and protocols, but the real problem is ignorance of just what they are and that they exist.

I treat my teachers with respect and the school too, and always thank them for helping me with anything. I may be paying them money, but they are teaching me and spending their time to help me get better using knowledge and hardwork they have spent years learning and practicing.

Now my post here is about:
1) What is proper etiquette in chinese martial arts [schools]?
2) What is the best way to educate people on them [in America]?
3) Is it really an issue if the teachers at the school do not say anything?
4) American schools lacking the titles being relative, is this a bad thing (ie, teachers are called sifu's instead of being relative to a senior student helping you, etc)?


I do not want to disrespect my school, art, and teachers. I am all for following proper protocol and etiquette, yet is this something I should worry about unless told so by the school? The article was posted on the school's bb.

Would it be wrong of me to write something up on proper etiquette, like a proposal on practices and proper protocol of etiquette in chinese martial arts?

I just want to do the right thing.

Ray Pina
11-12-2004, 07:17 AM
I've never viewed my MA practice as a business relationship, me a customer, my teacher the seller.

Yes I pay tuition, but the relationship is much deeper. Sort of like with a college professor. I pay to go earn the credits, but there is respect for the professor, for being an expert in a field I am interested in.

I've had a few teachers. The two stand outs are my first karate teacher. He was like a second dad to me. I saw him more than my own dad really, on an hour for hour basis. And now my master. I get to train with one of my heros. I feel lucky, and I wish I could pay him more.

unixfudotnet
11-12-2004, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I've never viewed my MA practice as a business relationship, me a customer, my teacher the seller.

Yes I pay tuition, but the relationship is much deeper. Sort of like with a college professor. I pay to go earn the credits, but there is respect for the professor, for being an expert in a field I am interested in.

I've had a few teachers. The two stand outs are my first karate teacher. He was like a second dad to me. I saw him more than my own dad really, on an hour for hour basis. And now my master. I get to train with one of my heros. I feel lucky, and I wish I could pay him more.

Yeah, our school is definitely not a business. The teacher chooses his students. You can't just come and get accepted as a student.

David Jamieson
11-12-2004, 07:25 AM
It seems the american paradigm often drifts to "goods and services".

Everyone knows the cost but understands little of the value.
But then, Chinese culture is certainly different and it can't be expected that we western folks understand the intricacies of what is otherwise strange behaviour to us. For example, a Kungfu school and it's protocol and etiquette.

Having said that, you should know what is expected of you before you have finished your first class. You will likely be informed of any faux pas you have made. If you continue to make the same gaff, I'm sure someone will tell you.

Some Kungfu Kwoons use a familial structure, some use sashes, some use a hybrid of both these so they can fit the mindset of the widest possible audience.

Some Kungfu places are more relaxed (especially if the class is mostly adults) and some are rigid to an almost ridiculous level of self parody when it comes to adhering to cultural traditions.

I wouldn't sweat it. Just be dilgent in attendance, learning and practice. Be as courteous to everyone as you would like them to be to you and carry on. Everything in time.

cheers

brothernumber9
11-12-2004, 07:54 AM
I don't think it would be wrong for you to generate, perhaps a written proposal and present it to your sifu in regards to etiquette and protocol in your kwoon.

However you should probably talk to him/her about it first to see how he/she is open to the idea.

It could be condescending or challenging to your sifu if you, out of the blue, handed him/her a proposal regarding a way to change some things, even if the outcome would be for the better, particularly if they are of the culture, and you, someone probably not as deep or knowledgeable/experienced of the culture, may be perceived as presenting yourself as if you know more than he/she (your sifu that is). Bottom line though, it is your sifu's school and he/she decides what or how much of chinese martial arts culture they wish to imbed into their teaching, school, and structure, and from which sort of cultural group or identity(s) they wish to derive those aspects from.

If you are not on a personal level with your sifu, or comfortable enough to talk to him/her, then present your idea to one of your sihing/sije that can relay these ideas or co-present them properly to your sifu.

Newb
11-12-2004, 09:23 AM
First rule of CMA:
Wear deoderant and gargle with mouthwash.

Ray Pina
11-12-2004, 09:36 AM
Amen to that. And wash your gear every now and then.

David Jamieson
11-12-2004, 09:57 AM
And try not to rip off a huge F@rt during meditation time.

TaiChiBob
11-12-2004, 10:52 AM
Greetings..

I neither need nor desire "formal" gestures of "respect" from my students, and i make that clear.. their gestures of respect are subtle and i appreciate the low-key politeness.. we have a good time, keep it light-hearted, occasionally silly.. but, when the lessons are presented and i indicate the importance of the lesson, the students are attentive and sincere.. the highest measure of respect is the level of dedication and hard work the student will output.. the level of participation in extracurricular activities such as school maintenance, marketing, etc..

And, i respect anyone willing to invest their time, effort and hard earned dollars toward their self-improvement and self-defense, particularly if they choose me as an instructor.. we have no formal ranking system, though i may issue certificates of achievement from time to time..

More importantly, to me, is the transmission of a code of honor.. that the Art be used for self-defense and self-improvement.. that any harm be balanced with the knowledge to heal that which you have hurt.. that, beyond gaining control of a conflict, there is no honor in inflicting more hurt or harm.. that injustice left unchallenged will only get worse.. that, at some level, we possess "professional" knowledge and are (should be) bound by a code of professional ethics.. that we can make a difference in our communities..

Be well...

Newb
11-12-2004, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Kung Lek
And try not to rip off a huge F@rt during meditation time.

As long as it's not smelly, it's ok, right?

Shaolinlueb
11-12-2004, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Newb
As long as it's not smelly, it's ok, right?

yeah if its quite.

red5angel
11-12-2004, 01:41 PM
and I wish I could pay him more.

if that were true you probably would be.....




And try not to rip off a huge F@rt during meditation time.

according to this old chinese guy in my first wingchun class, that's just bad chi escaping :p

Tai Chi Shawn
02-02-2005, 04:17 PM
Scholar,
Since we go to the same school, you're the person who could make the most relevant comment, but anyone can answer, of course.

Etiquette: When learning something directly from Sifu (Sifu Eddie Wu in our case) is there a specific etiquette? For instance, if he is in the class as you are training, and he happens to come to you to correct something, comment on a stance, etc. Universally, when taught by a Master (at least in my experience), you listen without interupting or disputing his/her direction, etc. I assume thats the same, but do you bow after he's finished with his comments? Do I call him Sifu/? Sifu Eddie? Sifu Wu?

Not that I expect to learn from him directly for some time (still a beginner), but I just don't want to blow it or show disrespect without knowing it.

Any comments?

shawn
p.s. Scholar, did you see the new shirts? They're cool.

scholar
02-02-2005, 04:43 PM
Greetings Shawn.

You are correct not to interrupt, make excuses or apologise if you are corrected. Just listen. Respectful questions are more than OK. Sifu does like technical questions, IME, and you will get some good info with good questions. When you do get a correction from Sifu or a senior, thank them. "Thank you Sifu" or if it is Nick or someone at his rank "Thank you Sihing." It is an honour to be corrected by Sifu in the old tradition, and you should work on his correction as much as you can. You don't want the same correction again!

My best advice is to watch Sifu like a hawk, but discreetly. The mirrors are handy for this. If he does it, it is correct. If you see someone else, anyone else, doing the same move and it doesn't look quite the same, work on Sifu's version. He was trained from a young age by his family, and he quite literally has T'ai Chi pouring out of him when he teaches, you don't want to miss a thing. Later, when you have your own kung fu, your forms may not look exactly like his (especially if you are built differently) but for now the fastest way forward is strict imitation.

Another good etiquette point is not to bring up other styles or teachers on the training floor. For training, if Sifu doesn't teach it, it doesn't exist. Why waste training time debating? Sifu can mention them, but not us. The tea room is a different story, but even there you should be respectful of other styles if you do mention them.

Whenever Sifu enters, you should stand up or stop what you are doing and respectfully greet him, even if you are the only one who does so. He may act like you don't have to, but he secretly enjoys it. If you hand him anything, hand it to him with two hands, the same if you take anything from him, use two hands. Also, if he is lighting incense, you should stop what you are doing and stand quietly while he does so, looking discreetly at the pictures of the ancestors.

Very nice new shirts, contemporary. Now what am I going to do with my old shirts? I've got two different-era versions of the Hong Kong uniform as well...

I hope this helps, it sounds like you are doing fine. I live a looong way from Toronto, so I don't get in as much as I used to, but if I see you there I'll say hello.

Cheers!

Tai Chi Shawn
02-02-2005, 06:37 PM
Thanks Scholar. I'll make use of your advice. Its sort of what I expected, but you detailed some things I would not have thought about.

For your instruction, and correction, I'll say "Thank you Sihing".

If you visit Toronto, I'll be the guy trying to "walk" properly. See you sometime.

shawn

Brad
02-02-2005, 08:15 PM
Just listen to scholar, because there's no formal etiquette for this kind of thing, and it's different from school to school. Of course you have to follow basic politeness (don't interupt when he's talking, argue, or other generally rude bahaviour).

Three Harmonies
02-03-2005, 09:11 AM
Brad & Scholar are giving very good info. In general be polite (what a novel idea, if only the world could follow suit ;) ).
As for titles....the ego is a funny thing, and here in the west (not implicating Mr. Wu) it seems to be a silly fad to call teachers Sifu/Shrfu/Master etc. In China they shake their heads at our fascination with this ego stroking, and many Chinese who come here take full advantage (again not implicating anyone specifically).
If we want to get technical the proper term is Laoshi, literally "old teacher." It is not just for martial arts, but for any all posistions of teacher-student relationships. Once you are formally "adopted" as a disciple then it is proper (if your teacher requests it) to call him shrfu/sifu in Cantonese. This literally means "Teacher father." Connotating the familial ties. But even in most cases old school teachers do not require you to refer to them as Shrfu.
For those interested I have an extensive article on discipleship in the Chinese Martial Arts on my site under articles.

Cheers
Jake :D

Ray Pina
02-03-2005, 09:19 AM
Many times I just nod to regester what he has said has sunk in and I get back to business. Sometimes it calls for a salute and a "Thanks Master", and then getting back to business.

Do what your heart tells you to at the moment.

Tai Chi Shawn
02-07-2005, 02:23 PM
Adendum question: OK, I finally met Sifu Wu and did the right fist, left palm bow, and he smiled and seemed appreciative. Later that night I began chatting with Sifu Paul about the "levels" of etiquette.

He mentioned that the etiquette applies to the training hall, but not the common reception/lounge area. There he's just Paul. OK, so my question is, does this same rule apply to Sifu Wu? I'm guessing he's always Sifu, and he always deserves a bow for respect, in and out of the training hall. However, I don't want to be a **** and do it wrong by calling him Sifu and bowing out side the training hall to find out I blew it.

Any fellow Wu students - can you clarify this from your own experience? Its also important to note that the etiquette between disciples, students and Sifu is different yet again. I'm not a disciple, just a beginner student.

shawn
p.s. I'm not trying to be a **** about it. I'm also not a white guy who whishes he was born Asian. I truly just want to show the proper respect to Sifu, my fellow students and the disciples. And I want to do it in the way that Sifu wants it done. I just don't want to ask HIM how to do it :(

joedoe
02-07-2005, 08:09 PM
You should not be so concerned about 'blowing it'. Most sifus (I do not know your sifu however) are pretty relaxed about things like that, and are pretty understanding of the fact that a new student may not fully know the proper forms. Just be polite and show respect, and you should be fine.

scholar
02-08-2005, 09:18 AM
Joedoe is correct.

Don't worry, if you do something wrong, you will be told all about it! We all have been. That is what students do, that is why we are still students.

I remembered one other thing we should never do, we shouldn't point at or gesture to Sifu Eddie (or anyone whose butt we aren't about to kick) with our fingers. Like the common palm up moving the index finger to say "come here" gesture. I saw someone do that once (who should have known better) and Sifu said something to them about it in no uncertain terms.

Ray Pina
02-08-2005, 09:22 AM
Shawn, how do you treat your girlfriend? Do you open car door for her and treat her to movies because you love her, or because that is the socially accepted practice for a man taking out a woman?

I call my master "master" in the training hall, in the reception area, going down the stairs together, in the restuarant when we go to get dim sum. I know this kind of thing can be uncomfortable for some people but what do I call a man like this? "Hey David, can you pass the salt." It doesn't even sound right typing it in jest.

Build your relationship with you teacher and act naturally. Behave in a manner appropriate to your relationship. Can't believe I just typed that too, because I'm not a fan of Confucious, but ....

Tai Chi Shawn
02-08-2005, 11:34 AM
My girlfriend is different than my Sifu. I don't get that analogy, but thats fine.

As for the Sifu relationship, common sense tells me that he's always my Sifu. In that, I will refer to him as Sifu. I guess its the more subtle information I'm looking for. Sifu "Wu" vs. Sifu "Eddie". Wu seems more correct to me, yet Scholar refers to him as Sifu Eddie (same Sifu, by the way). Subtle gestures are more difficult to get a handle on than the big do's and don'ts. Those I can do - the little stuff, that's different.

Thanks for the info everyone. Awesome, as usual.

shawn

joedoe
02-08-2005, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Shawn, how do you treat your girlfriend? Do you open car door for her and treat her to movies because you love her, or because that is the socially accepted practice for a man taking out a woman?

I call my master "master" in the training hall, in the reception area, going down the stairs together, in the restuarant when we go to get dim sum. I know this kind of thing can be uncomfortable for some people but what do I call a man like this? "Hey David, can you pass the salt." It doesn't even sound right typing it in jest.

Build your relationship with you teacher and act naturally. Behave in a manner appropriate to your relationship. Can't believe I just typed that too, because I'm not a fan of Confucious, but ....

It is funny you say that. I currently have the opposite problem. For 18 years I have called my sifu by his first name, but recently the students made a collective decision to start addressing him as sifu. I am struggling with it not because I do not want to, but because old habits die hard :)

Tai Chi Shawn
02-09-2005, 06:59 AM
Well, apparently I've "gone and done it now!" hahaha

I raised these same questions with "Dempsey Sifu" last week in the training hall. It got around that we were discussing it, and I guess "Wu Sifu" heard about our discussion and thought it would be easiest and prefered that we use formal Sifu, Sihing and Sijae in the training hall.

Well, at least I know the proper etiquette now.

I kill me! hahaha :D

scholar
02-09-2005, 01:04 PM
Just so you know, I would never call him Sifu Eddie to his face! "Sifu," that's it. There are other sifus in the system, Detroit, London and Fredricton among others, whom you would call Sifu (Name) if you were in their class. The sifu of the Shanghai or Singapore school you would call "Sigung" because he is from an earlier generation than Sifu Eddie. Sifu Eddie's sister Cynthia's title is "Siku" which means "Aunt."

:D

FuXnDajenariht
02-09-2005, 10:07 PM
how do you pronounce Laoshi?

Ray Pina
02-10-2005, 12:01 PM
Almost like "Lousy", right?

Tai Chi Shawn
02-14-2005, 11:37 AM
Who? Me? I could be tossed from my school for asking a question about general etiquette on a forum?

Uh... thats disconcerting.

Ray Pina
02-14-2005, 11:43 AM
That's not what he said.

Honestly, this whole topic is pretty silly. Just be yourself. You're training to be a fighter, right? Or more accurately, a beater of men, correct?

Well, quite often these sort of people don't cross all their "T"s or dot all of their "i"s but as a martial artist you should have respect for your teacher and classmates AND fellow martial artists. If you have all of those, or at least respect for your teacher, everything else will fall into place.

Tai Chi Shawn
02-14-2005, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Ray Pina
That's not what he said.

Ok, but after reading the rest of the posts to see if I missed something, it seemed like DB was, in fact, saying so. If not, my mistake.

Of course, general politeness and respect are the orders of the day. I get that.

shawn

Tai Chi Shawn
02-14-2005, 12:33 PM
Thanks for clearing that up delibandit. I'm only a little paranoid ... really.:rolleyes:

shawn

Ray Pina
02-14-2005, 12:49 PM
I've seen people with lots of ability either get kicked out right or just get the cold shoulder -- but in a classy way -- for being d!cks.

Who wants to help an a$$hole?

Ray Pina
02-14-2005, 01:33 PM
I view it in even more simplified terms ..... my master willingly shares his treasure with me. How do you thank someone properly for that?

This is not simply a coach/player relationship.

scholar
02-15-2005, 09:43 AM
I couldn't agree with you guys more. The sacrifices that our teachers have made in their lives to preserve and transmit the arts to us undeserving codswallops are staggering. When my Sifu (being the oldest son of the oldest son of the oldest son of the oldest son in the lineage) had to stay indoors and train, other kids his age were playing cowboys and indians outside, having fun, having friends. They started him when he was 6 and that is all that he was allowed to do, in the family tradition, until his late teens. That is the way Chinese culture was for thousands of years, but if you were to treat a a kid that way today, you'd go to jail. He was literally kicked around every day, until he started to get things nailed perfectly, at least according to his family.

It breaks my heart to see people giving him a hard time and disrespecting him (and other traditional teachers). To belittle such a sacrifice (the way modern martial artists like to do) is incredibly disrespectful and used to be somewhat dangerous. When he was younger, serious challengers would get their bones broken, run of the mill smarta$$es would just get kicked in the 'nads for their trouble, but Sifu has mellowed, now he just walks away shaking his head.

You should avoid questions which may seem like challenges. Chinese Confucian culture has strict rules about the etiquette in these situations, designed to save face (avoid unnecessary trouble) and Westerners screw this up all the time, IME. He is an understanding guy, he has said that he knows Westerners don't realise that their questions are inappropriate for the most part. That is why it is good to leave them in the realm of the technical, keep your own judgements out of them. A question that starts with: "It seems to me..." is going to get you into trouble. A good template is "Sifu, how does the forearm turn in this form?" or "Sifu, why does the elbow have to stay down?" Straight questions, no convolutions or philosophising.

Ray Pina
02-15-2005, 11:15 AM
Scholar .... you're learning taiji from the eldest son of the eldest son of the eldest son .... that's taiji I would be interested in seeing;) Nothing like getting it from the heir. None of this disciple or closed door business:)

Good post.

scholar
02-15-2005, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by delibandit
I am lucky in that I have a Chinese teacher who stated recently that he encourages his students to challenge him about what he teaches so that we can be sure that he is right, so that we can know for ourselves that the principles he is teaching are sound. He clearly distinguished this kind of challenge from acts of disrespect though. And actually, several of his students and disciples have come to him first as polite challegers that he beat when they asked if they could try against him.
...
I once worshiped Bruce Lee, but as I've gone deeper into real gongfu and it's traditions, I've come to see him in another light. And I don't really admire him that much anymore.

Those challenges from his students are in the context of people with whom your teacher has a good relationship already. We did have a Judo guy come in and challenge Sifu one time when the Toronto school was new, and the guy got his leg broken for his trouble. In the spirit of what you say, the Judo guy was respectful afterwards and ended up studying with us for many years. My fellow students have also (in the past) asked politely to challenge Sifu on the training floor, and he agreed ahead of time, but he almost always just kicked them in the groin before they could do anything. He explained they had to learn that on the street they could be killed just as quickly and easily and didn't want to encourage illusions. Fortunately, he does encourage the senior students to challenge each other in training and he supervises and corrects and even gives options sometimes as to alternatives if he likes what he sees.

I feel sorry for Bruce Lee and others like him who decry the teacher-student relationship, they may be as good as they want to be, but they will never be able to transmit their work to another generation as they don't value respect and character in a way that encourages transmission from senior to junior. Bruce's art feeds off of other arts for their technique, mix and match, sacrificing IMO the benefits of consistency of focus across the entire continuum of training that a good classical art provides.

Sifu's uncle was a good friend of the late master Yip Man, they even had a senior student exchange programme for a while, and the Wu family have great respect for his school. I believe that Bruce missed out on a golden opportunity when he left it to go on his own.

scholar
02-15-2005, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Ray Pina
Scholar .... you're learning taiji from the eldest son of the eldest son of the eldest son .... that's taiji I would be interested in seeing;) Nothing like getting it from the heir. None of this disciple or closed door business:)

Good post.

We are fortunate that he is presenting much more of the art publicly than previous generations. His uncles were angry with him at first, but he managed to convince them that it is necessary to preserve the art. The need for military secrecy is gone now, so the only reason to hold back information is character, as far as he is concerned. Formerly, they wouldn't even acknowledge things like the breathing exercises (qigong or ch'i kung) or fast fa jing forms unless you were a long-standing disciple. Now they are part of the curriculum for everyone. He says that his biggest worry is that the art will become extinct, since it takes so long to learn well, so he wants to encourtage people a little more, especially Westerners who don't have the cultural background that a Chinese person may have.

Ray Pina
02-15-2005, 12:26 PM
Sounds like you have a good thing going there. Your posts have made me happy today because we're not alone.

Anjentao
02-18-2005, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
how do you pronounce Laoshi?

That would be Lao (same sound as Loud) Shi (like sure or sh-er)

Interesting to hear all of the formal names people call their teacher/master.

I was very surprised to learn that my teacher preferred to just be called by his first name. No title at all. I heard from the older students that he doesn't really care about any of that. It's definitley a far cry from my former external school where we called our teacher "master" and his teacher "grandmaster".

I think scholar is right on the mark about just being respectful and watching and imitating everything the teacher/master does with regard to learning the art. Very good advice!

Ray, I'm with you on your comment about not being alone! Scholar's posts are definitley refreshing and great ro read. Thanks!

Happy training!

Anjentao
02-18-2005, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by delibandit
Anjentao,

I suspect that you and I have the same teacher, just curious.

I don't live in Pittsburgh, so I would have to say our teachers are not the same.

It does sound like our teachers have the same attitude though.

Even thinking about calling him Laoshi or Sifu is strange. My guess is that he would give me a surprised look and start laughing at me if I called him either!

He is generous, patient and very down to earth. I consider myself VERY LUCKY to be studying with him.


"When the student is ready, the master will appear"

scholar
02-18-2005, 04:53 PM
Some browsers may have to be adjusted to be able to read this:

Mandarin Chinese ÀÏŽŸ, (Wade-Giles) Lao3 Shih1, (Pinyin) l¨£o sh¨© (lit., old master).

My teacher's family originally came from the north, so the older generations used Lao Shih as a term for a teacher. Sifu Eddie Wu grew up in Hong Kong, so he prefers:

Cantonese Sifu; 師父 Mandarin (Wade-Giles) Shih1 fu4, (Pinyin) Shī f¨´ (lit., master father).

FWIW.

Dano
06-21-2006, 05:09 PM
A question about kwoon etiquette,

My son studied Wing Chun for three years. He was awarded his junior black sash, after the 2nd year. Twice, his Sifu chose to skip him a sash level at testing because he said that my son was ahead of the rest of his peers and deserved to skip the level. I never saw another student skip two levels. I only mention this to show that they liked my son and the potential they saw in him…I think.

After three years, my son was getting bored. The school moved and most of the older students stopped attending. My son found himself in a class of predominantly beginning students.

When my son decided to stop attending classes, my wife took my son to the kwoon and explained the decision to Sifu, and his senior student, who was my son’s primary teacher. Afterwards, I sent a follow up e-mail thanking them for the time they had devoted to instructing my son and attached my favorite picture of my son with his teacher.

I never received a response to the e-mail from either of them. Not that I was expecting them to say how great my son is, but a simple acknowledgement of receiving the e-mail would’ve been nice. It left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I heard them talk frequently of Kung Fu family, and Kung Fu etiquette. I’m left with the impression that those familial feelings are reserved for “paying” members of the family and that once you stop paying, you’re no longer deserving of simple consideration.

My son will soon be old enough to join the adult class and has talked about going back to study. Do I just need to lighten up about my perceived slight, or if a kwoon really stresses family and etiquette, but don’t show it once a student stops attending, should that matter?

I haven’t mentioned any of this to my son and won’t. If he wants to study there I’ll let him, but the respect I once held his Sifu and DaiSihing in is gone. Those of you that run your own kwoons, what are your thoughts?

Thanks

Average Joe
06-21-2006, 05:47 PM
No belts at my school. But out of curiosity when your son took those tests was a fee required? and if a belt was skipped want the fee increased for the next? I would not be upset with the lack of reply I think emails are a total joke a phonecall or personal visit take alot more courage, just look at the keyboard commandoes in these forums. If your son still desires to atten das an adult then he should of his personal choice . Do you also attend?

Buddha_Fist
06-21-2006, 05:47 PM
Avoid any Wing Chun schools with sashes & talks about "Kwoon Etiquette". Running around in silk pajamas and talking like Master Po only adds unnecessary noise to your training. Check whether there are more professional schools around...

:(

Sihing73
06-21-2006, 05:55 PM
Hello Dano,

It is hard to respond without knowing the full circumstances. My suggestion would be for you to go and speak to the Sifu and express your thoughts. Be honest but also be ready to listen ot their replies. It is possible that they simply overlooked responding to you or perhaps they did not get or read the email you sent. They may even have felt that they already had addressed the matter when you wife visited and explained things.

Everyone is different and percetpion is everything. Just because you and I may see something one way does not mean everyone else will. Nor does it mean we are necessarily right or wrong in our views. Bottom line is that right now you do not know what the reasons were for your "perceived" lack of a response. Go to them and speak to them about what happened and then see what happens.

As to the famial aspect of the training this is something you will not find in all schools. In some instances the relationship is there and it is like a big family. In others it is simply a business. Still others fall in between.

I have ben fortunate to have experienced the family aspect, having lived in the home of one of my Sifu and being very good firends with my current Sifu. I have noticed that this does not always trickle down as there seem ot be some who seek out this aspect while others do not. Again, to each their own and perception is key.

Mr Punch
06-21-2006, 06:29 PM
After three years, my son was getting bored. If that was the problem of itself and it communicated itself to the school that's not good for a start. Even if it's because of the beginning students thing that's still not too good, because often sifus expect junior high grades to help out with the lower grades as part of their development, which I think is reasonable... a way of putting back into the community something of what you have got out.


I never received a response to the e-mail from either of them. Not that I was expecting them to say how great my son is, but a simple acknowledgement of receiving the e-mail would’ve been nice. It left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I heard them talk frequently of Kung Fu family, and Kung Fu etiquette. I’m left with the impression that those familial feelings are reserved for “paying” members of the family and that once you stop paying, you’re no longer deserving of simple consideration.

First, you did the right thing in explaining to and thanking them. Secondly, they may be very very busy and therefore have missed the chance to mail you back at the appropriate time. Thirdly, and I'm afraid this is probably the overriding factor: your point about the kungfu family being for paid-up members only is accurate in many cases. They give the 'pay as much as you can' thing a lot of lip service, but the fact is with a lot of Chinese (and incidentally Japanese) organisations it's out of sight, out of mind.


My son will soon be old enough to join the adult class and has talked about going back to study. Do I just need to lighten up about my perceived slight, or if a kwoon really stresses family and etiquette, but don’t show it once a student stops attending, should that matter?

I haven’t mentioned any of this to my son and won’t. If he wants to study there I’ll let him, but the respect I once held his Sifu and DaiSihing in is gone. If he's going to be old enough to join the adult classes can we presume he's going to be an adult? In which case, you're correct in letting him make his own decision, and in that you should probably lighten up. Of course, adult or not, you are quite within your rights and may even owe it to your son to express your reservations to him as objectively as possible.


My son studied Wing Chun for three years. He was awarded his junior black sash, after the 2nd year. Twice, his Sifu chose to skip him a sash level at testing because he said that my son was ahead of the rest of his peers and deserved to skip the level. I never saw another student skip two levels. I only mention this to show that they liked my son and the potential they saw in him…I think.BTW, as a final point, and I hope I'm wrong but unfortunately I've seen about it many times... they may have only promoted him so quickly to ensure that your were ensnared and continued to pay your dues. The belt thing is often to tie you to your school and illusions of progress and that's all.

Mr Punch
06-21-2006, 06:33 PM
It is hard to respond without knowing the full circumstances. My suggestion would be for you to go and speak to the Sifu and express your thoughts. Be honest but also be ready to listen ot their replies. It is possible that they simply overlooked responding to you or perhaps they did not get or read the email you sent. They may even have felt that they already had addressed the matter when you wife visited and explained things.
And personally, I wouldn't bother.

If they did just overlook the mail (... although let's be honest how difficult is it to reply to a mail?) that's all well and good, but if it WAS a slight, they'll just brush you off with some pseudo-Chinesery and the taste in your mouth will get worse.

Dano
06-21-2006, 06:33 PM
Average, Joe,

My son did pay a fee for testing, however, when he skipped levels he wasn't charged for the level he skipped.

Ultimatewingchun
06-22-2006, 06:43 AM
"My son will soon be old enough to join the adult class and has talked about going back to study. Do I just need to lighten up about my perceived slight, or if a kwoon really stresses family and etiquette, but don’t show it once a student stops attending, should that matter?" (Dano)


***LIGHTEN UP.

sandman
06-22-2006, 08:40 AM
I believe I would have thought the matter was settled. Your wife and son met with them (which is admirable) and then you sent a thank you note for their time.

Outside of email, I don't send a thank you note for receiving a thank you note. Why would I do it with email?

Dano
06-22-2006, 09:40 AM
I appreciate the feedback. Just as a side note, the children's classes are for ages up to 12. Once a person is 12, they can start the adult classes. That point was brought up in a few of the posts, and I thought I should respond.

anerlich
06-22-2006, 11:18 PM
Because it was a "Kung Fu" school where they have "Kung fu" ettiquette doesn't mean they magically will or shuold behave differently to anyone else.

If I was the teacher, I might have appreciated the thank you note, but replying to it might have smacked a bit of desperation or obsequiousness.

Your family chose to terminate the arrangement. Even if you handled it well, like you did, I don't think I'd feel that thanking you for breaking up so nicely was really necessary.

And as Victor said, lighten up. It's not that big a deal. The guy might teach KF, but he's not a Messiah. Don't expect everyone to be bound by your standards of behaviour.

snakebyte8
06-23-2006, 09:29 PM
C/P

Su Dongpo was an avid student of Buddhist teachings, and often discussed them with his good friend, the Zen master Foyin. The two lived across the river from one another - Su Dongpo's residence on the north side and Foyin's Gold Mountain Temple on the south side.

One day, Su Dongpo felt inspired and wrote the following poem:

I bow my head to the heaven within heaven
Hairline rays illuminating the universe
The eight winds cannot move me
Sitting still upon the purple golden lotus

Impressed by himself, Su Dongpo dispatched a servant to hand-carry this poem to Foyin. He felt certain that his friend would be just as impressed.

When Foyin read the poem, he immediately saw that it was both a tribute to the Buddha and a declaration of spiritual refinement. The "eight winds" in the poem referred to praise, ridicule, honor, disgrace, gain, loss, pleasure and misery - interpersonal forces of the material world that drove and influenced the hearts of men. Su Dongpo was saying that he had attained a higher level of spirituality, where these forces no longer affected him.

Smiling, the Zen master wrote F@RT on the manuscript and had it returned to Su Dongpo.

Su Dongpo had been expecting compliments and a seal of approval, so he was shocked when he saw what the Zen master had written. He hit the roof: "How dare he insult me like this? Why that lousy old monk! He's got a lot of explaining to do!"

Full of indignation, Su Dongpo ordered a boat to ferry him to the other shore as quickly as possible. Once there, he jumped off and charged into the temple. He wanted to find Foyin and demand an apology.

He found Foyin's door closed. On the door was a piece of paper, with the following two lines:

The eight winds cannot move me
One F@RT blows me across the river

This stopped Su Dongpo cold. Foyin had anticipated this hotheaded visit. Su Dongpo's anger suddenly drained away as he understood his friend's meaning. If he really was a man of spiritual refinement, completely unaffected by the eight winds, then how could he be so easily provoked?

With a few strokes of the pen and minimal effort, Foyin showed that Su Dongpo was in fact not as spiritually advanced as he claimed to be. Ashamed but wiser, Su Dongpo departed quietly.

This event proved to be a turning point in Su Dongpo's spiritual development. From that point on, he became a man of humility, and not merely someone who boasted of possessing the virtue.
:p

ngokfei
06-24-2006, 06:48 AM
As a MA Teacher I'll comment:

The skipping of ranks should be seen as a honor and a belief in your child's skills and maturity. (see they are not about the money as they waved the skipped levels fees).

An important note is did you tell the instructor that your child was getting bored due to the fact of the lack of training with same or senior level students? or did you just go in and tell them that your child was leaving.

What did the instructor say to this? Did they ask why and how they could fix the situation?

Schools are just that, sure a relationship is created between the staff and students but if the student leaves then the common thread is no more.

How many of us keep in touch with our high school teachers or past job employers?

Its nice to hear your son wants to resume his training, hope he is mature enough to handle the adult class and doesn't get bored too easily.

Dano
06-24-2006, 10:32 AM
I really do appreciate the input. Maybe I just had to put my thoughts on paper (forum) to see the foolishness of my thoughts.

Keng Geng
06-24-2006, 01:32 PM
Talk of Kung Fu Family is just a way of saying "Please pay us and take our B.S."

"Missing out on your disfunctional upbringing? Feeling nostalgia for that "tough love"? Join our Traditional kung fu kwoon. You'll feel right at home with our chinese kung fu family/politics and non-teaching teaching method, otherwise known as the "art of teaching without teaching". And that's not all! Sashes! We've got 'em too. We'll test you for the next level, a year later forget that we tested you, then demote you! How about that? All this for $300 per month. And as an added bonus, we'll guilt trip you into volunteering for our high disorganized kung fu tournaments. Call now!"

If there is a business transation the notion of Kung Fu family can not exist. If you pay your money, you are purchasing a service. It's that simple. If kung fu family is on the table, don't buy it. You're asking for trouble.

Green Cloud
06-25-2006, 05:18 PM
Hi Da No, I think what happens is people forget with any organization even none profit is they got bills. If your a patron of the arts cool well bend over backwards for ya.

If you are pulling your son out of a kwoon then the letter from the Sifu's point of view might as well say," you suck and were leaving to go to a better school because we have no patients or loyalty". PS it's been nice chow for now.

The problem with most parents don't realy get it. In order to be part of the family you have to be loyal to the family and you go to show your support.

Teaching Kung Fu isn't like selling insurance not everyone needs it. Every student counts.

I alway tell my student's when they leave that one day our roads will cross again young aas hopper.

Who know they might come back and it's just good buiss. but than again that has nothing to do with family. It's just buiss.

greencloud.net

Mr Punch
06-25-2006, 10:23 PM
"Missing out on your disfunctional upbringing? ...If there is a business transation the notion of Kung Fu family can not exist. If you pay your money, you are purchasing a service. It's that simple. If kung fu family is on the table, don't buy it. You're asking for trouble.
LOL :D

The above is correct.

Problem is, Green Cloud is correct too.

Depends completely on the teacher.

The real Chinese deal is exactly that they expect you to be like a family BUT they expect you to pay, and it depends on the teacher what happens after you've left. Incidentally in Japan it's the same (it's the Confucian aspect of loyalty I think) and in most cases, if you leave the school it really is out of sight out of mind, as I said.

Then you get a lot of Western schools who buy into the pomp of the Chinese tradition and expect you to kowtow to them and not to question their teaching... and then you get some Wstern teachers from more strict and involved traditional Chinese schools who don't assume the airs and graces but assume that if you are interested in kungfu it must be for the whole cultural package... Then you get some Western teachers who don't give a monkeys, and some Chinese teachers are like that nowadays too...

So, there are all sorts. You've heard everybody's different advice, now go with your gut: was the teacher a good seeming guy, and was the stuff he was teaching good for your son's and your goals?

Then follow Ultimate WC's advice! :D

Green Cloud
06-26-2006, 06:57 AM
We forget that Kung Fu is an art just like any other, like Dance or Music you know not main stream like pop. Kung Fu is not main stream and like classical music and balet they have to have a good support group to exist.

Fortunatly for most arts like Balet and Opera they are supported by the rich. Kung Fu is not, maybe some shaoilin troops are but they focused them selves to a cirque de sole type crowds.

To run a traditional Kung Fu school is very difficult in deed. Morality and Ethics are a thing of the past in todays world. Think about it how many people on this site go to church or support their place of worship.

The fact is people have forgotten simple little traditions fo the past not that long ago. Just because you don't have the time to go to church on sundays doesn't mean that you don't have to send in your yearly donation.

For me my church is my kwoon my safe haven it's what keeps me grounded. Even after my Sifu got ill and could not teach anymore, I still sent him his monthly check. It was not only my obligation but my duty to take care of my sifu who had shown me another world.

Sifu means Teacher Father, wondering what the appropriate way to respect your sifu is??? Just ask your self HMM how would I treat my father.

Of course in todays dog eat dog world this Idealism is atiquated and Virtue is lost.:(


greencloud.net

anerlich
06-26-2006, 04:34 PM
Morality and Ethics are a thing of the past in todays world. Think about it how many people on this site go to church or support their place of worship.


Morality and ethics are not a thing of the past. Nor do they necessarily have anything to do with going to Church or similar. I'm sure plenty of Mafiosi attend Mass every Sunday in between crominal acts.

I don't attend any church. As a non-Christian, I believe that to do so would be hypocritical to the extreme. Other's opinions of my non-attendance are of no consequence if I am to be true to myself.


Idealism is atiquated and Virtue is lost.

You are speaking for yourself. I disagree.

Morality, ethics and virtue come from within, not from establishment traditions. Not that traditions need be ignoble, just that adherence to them is not enough.

Green Cloud
06-27-2006, 01:02 AM
Anerlich, I was speaking metophorically about the church thing and showing the parrallels between the two as to make a point about loyalty.

As far as my last statement is concerned, it's my way of saying that people now a days will just go a head and do what they want to do.

I'm glad that you are a moral guy on the inside but you don't represent society in a whole. Today people have forgotten the old ways and codes.

Green Cloud
07-15-2006, 10:23 AM
Kwoon etiquette is an interesting topic, I'm just curious how students and Sifu's feel about this subject.

Meklorien
07-19-2006, 06:42 PM
Avoid any Wing Chun schools with sashes & talks about "Kwoon Etiquette". Running around in silk pajamas and talking like Master Po only adds unnecessary noise to your training. Check whether there are more professional schools around...

:(

Buddha Fist's advice is precise.

Green Cloud
07-22-2006, 08:23 PM
I think you guys are missing the point, but I do agree that wing chun might not offer enough excitement for a young teen. I also think that Judo Jiu jitsu and other sorts might not excite a youngster, practical yes but not fun.

When I was a kid I enjoyed MA that had lots of high kicks and jumps and so forth, I wasn't interested in standing still doing the siu lum tao or rolling around the floor with some sweaty dude.

greencloud.net

GeneChing
12-10-2014, 09:21 AM
A bit of a lesson, a bit of a sales pitch, a bit of a holiday gift offering from me. :cool:

Gifting Swords (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1193)