lower abs breathing in SLT [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

wingchunIan

03-11-2013, 01:44 AM

typical over complication of something very very simple. To correctly perform abdominal breathing simply hold your chest still (you can put your hands on it to check if it is moving to begin with) and draw air into the lungs by pulling the diagphragm down into the abdominal region. To exhale simply let go of the diagphragm and allow it to return to its original position. Over time you can increase the volume of air drawn in. Once comfortable with drawing air into the abdomen and allowing it to expand forwards you can begin to explore allowing it to expand backwards as well but this takes time. There is no clenching required of anything and no rocking of the weight. Deep abdominal breathing is a great way to increase aerobic capacity and also a superb for post exertion recovery to return the heartrate to normal (because it gets so much oxygen into the blood)It's also great if you're a diver because you get more air per breath. Everyone breathes abdominally as an infant and animals do so throughout their lives, I'm not sure when or why we evolved the habit of breathing into the upper chest but there is nothing mystical about the benefits of breathing abdominally.

poulperadieux

03-11-2013, 02:28 AM

you don't bore people into knowledge... That's the basics

thedreamer7

03-11-2013, 04:31 AM

for those who is interested only!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3OajZQoGIU

Some more on the topic.
http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/12/the-importance-of-breathing.html

Hendrik

03-11-2013, 08:24 AM

The following is the issue of your ideas.

1. using the mind trying to control the body while the mind really doesn't know the body and end up forcing it.

2. This type of Description of "man made handling " Is not what the Chinese ima or qigong natural lower abs breathing refer as in my utube, they are different things.

3. In the process of the utube above, once one identify the response and resonance of the body naturally, one needs only to enter into the state, let it be natural. Not using mind to control.

4. Notice in the utube it concern only with exhale and let the inhale be natural happen. No effort is used at all . Also, the contract of the body is natural without man made control, but they surface naturally at exhale. That is heaven and earth different then the method describe here which is man control and over writing the natural resonance.

In fact when one is inhale, one doesn't want to hold anything , that is because one doesn't want to cause stop breathing and or sufforcated. Which then can Cause blood pressure and internal pressure to rise.

5. Without having a process, knowing exactly what the Chinese means in the ima and qigong practice. It is just impossible to get good and stable result. Many has prescribe things as the ideas here. But has the suggest person attain the state the ima or qigong practice needed ? For me, as the points I made here. These methods sounds good, but it doesn't go very far. And the result is not the same with the type present in the utube which describe how the Chinese has done it for thousand of years.

6. The following is a close practice related to today's modern scientific study, see for yourself what is the reason of the body movement while in breathing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqjKCj6d-p0

7. This is an issue of many define our own definition of lower abs breathing today! instead of first to understood what the ancient Chinese means. And thus ,will not get the result what the practice mean for.

Take a look at siu nim tau practice, how many hold thier spine, force their breathing, and no longer let the body and breathing flow with the natural dynamic way?

To correctly perform abdominal breathing simply hold your chest still (you can put your hands on it to check if it is moving to begin with) and draw air into the lungs by pulling the diagphragm down into the abdominal region.

To exhale simply let go of the diagphragm and allow it to return to its original position. Over time you can increase the volume of air drawn in. Once comfortable with drawing air into the abdomen and allowing it to expand forwards you can begin to explore allowing it to expand backwards as well but this takes time.

There is no clenching required of anything and no rocking of ........

Vajramusti

03-11-2013, 09:17 AM

There are various pranayama-yoga breathing drills developed over a long long time.

sil lim tao-let the motions and breathing coordinate naturally.

Hendrik

03-11-2013, 10:07 AM

Agree.

we need to know what the ancient is talking about.
And we must not define our own way.

This is another thing which is the Benifit from the red boat era slt kuen kuit. We know what is it and what result to expect from the practice.

There are various pranayama-yoga breathing drills developed over a long long time.

sil lim tao-let the motions and breathing coordinate naturally.

Hendrik

03-11-2013, 10:09 AM

Breathing is a serious and indepth issue.
Unless one has experience one don't know.
Unless one knows the details one can't practice.
Unless one practice one don't get result.

you don't bore people into knowledge... That's the basics

wingchunIan

03-11-2013, 10:11 AM

Hendrick I was going to quote what you posted previously but its much more concise to sum it up with "blah blah blah"

For someone who claims to have researched the chinese arts and internal martial arts in general you really do seem to have missed quite a great deal. There is a very old concept - the mind leads the breath that you seem to be oblivious to (at a more advanced level this can mean many other things but at a basic level it applies to exactly this). Eventually with practice like all things control of abdominal breathing can pass from the concious to the subconcious at which point it will appear to happen without the need to think about it but to begin with it needs to be trained especially if one has already developed the habit of breathing into the chest.
To say the mind doesn't know the body is complete and utter nonsense - total tripe. The mind at either concious or subconcious level controls everything the body does and therefore knows it very well indeed. The reason for building up the depth of breath over time is to ensure that you don't force things and defeat the object of being relaxed, soft and supple which in taoist terms is the essence of youthfulness and longevity. As for causing yourself to suffocate or giving yourself high blood pressure please you really do need to get out more and stop believing what you see on youtube. Try suffocating yourself by holding your breath, really do try it - it is impossible because the subconcious will not allow it to happen no matter how hard the concious mind tries.

As far as posture is concerned it has nothing whatsoever to do with abdominal breathing which can be practised during any moment and in any position. Posture in regards to internal practise is a separate issue useful for many things including removing inhibitions from the meridians and aligning the energy gates of the body etc

This is an issue of many define our own definition of lower abs breathing today! instead of first to understood what the ancient Chinese means. And thus ,will not get the result what the practice mean for.What I have described is exactly what the chinese have been practising for thousands of years just without the mumbo jumbo rubbish thrown in and perpetuated by people like your good self for the sole purpose of mystifying what is in fact a very simple and inherently natural activity.

Scott R. Brown

03-11-2013, 10:26 AM

Good, i was just about to recommend a therapist

Why?

You know a therapist that needs some help?

Hendrik

03-11-2013, 10:29 AM

Why shoot me the messenger who present what the ancient Chinese means and the process to get result?

Your level of practice attain is the proof of what is you mastering of breathing. Can you do it? Or just you think how you can do it base on your thinking. No one can get away from the fact of facing oneself.

Also, as you said

[There is a very old concept - the mind leads the breath that you seem to be oblivious to (at a more advanced level this can mean many other things but at a basic level it applies to exactly this). ]

Mind leads the breath? What is mind?

Forget about it. You mis understood the whole thing .
This path can't even get into the entry level.
Not in practice.

Don't believe me, go to a lab , get brain wave...biofeedback monitoring.

As for your claim of

[What I have described is exactly what the chinese have been practising for thousands of years just without the mumbo jumbo rubbish thrown in and perpetuated by people like your good self for the sole purpose of mystifying what is in fact a very simple and inherently natural activity.]

Please tell us who teaches you? Which style? Which sifu , What level he have attain? and you have attain?

Btw, there is no mystifying in my YouTube,

just :

stand loose, while exhale shift weight.
The rest let the body response naturally.

Take at look at your stuffs in the following and compare ,

oh my god, hold chest still, pulling diagphragm down.......ect
You just as well play God to try to control everything.

(Originally Posted by wingchunIan

To correctly perform abdominal breathing simply hold your chest still (you can put your hands on it to check if it is moving to begin with) and draw air into the lungs by pulling the diagphragm down into the abdominal region.

To exhale simply let go of the diagphragm and allow it to return to its original position. Over time you can increase the volume of air drawn in. Once comfortable with drawing air into the abdomen and allowing it to expand forwards you can begin to explore allowing it to expand backwards as well but this takes time.

There is no clenching required of anything and no rocking of ........)

Hendrick I was going to quote what you posted previously but its much more concise to sum it up with "blah blah blah"

For someone who claims to have researched the chinese arts and internal martial arts in general you really do seem to have missed quite a great deal.

There is a very old concept - the mind leads the breath that you seem to be oblivious to (at a more advanced level this can mean many other things but at a basic level it applies to exactly this).

Eventually with practice like all things control of abdominal breathing can pass from the concious to the subconcious at which point it will appear to happen without the need to think about it but to begin with it needs to be trained especially if one has already developed the habit of breathing into the chest.

To say the mind doesn't know the body is complete and utter nonsense - total tripe.

The mind at either concious or subconcious level controls everything the body does and therefore knows it very well indeed. The reason for building up the depth of breath over time is to ensure that you don't force things and defeat the object of being relaxed, soft and supple which in taoist terms is the essence of youthfulness and longevity. As for causing yourself to suffocate or giving yourself high blood pressure please you really do need to get out more and stop believing what you see on youtube. Try suffocating yourself by holding your breath, really do try it - it is impossible because the subconcious will not allow it to happen no matter how hard the concious mind tries.

As far as posture is concerned it has nothing whatsoever to do with abdominal breathing which can be practised during any moment and in any position. Posture in regards to internal practise is a separate issue useful for many things including removing inhibitions from the meridians and aligning the energy gates of the body etc

What I have described is exactly what the chinese have been practising for thousands of years just without the mumbo jumbo rubbish thrown in and perpetuated by people like your good self for the sole purpose of mystifying what is in fact a very simple and inherently natural activity.

lkfmdc

03-11-2013, 10:30 AM

Breathing is a serious and indepth issue.
Unless one has experience one don't know.

does anyone here not have experience breathing :rolleyes:

I never realized we had fish on here posting regularly

hulkout

03-11-2013, 10:30 AM

Proper breathing is important, but if you think about too many details you'll kill it. It's simply a matter of learning to breath deeply from the abdomen and not the chest. If you are properly in your Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma stance and your tongue is gently touching the roof of your mouth, it's kind of hard to not breath properly. All the guy in the video had to say was that. Don't over complicate things.

poulperadieux

03-11-2013, 10:46 AM

"Inhaling is yin, energy enters the body, exhaling is yang, energy is spread, thorough the body. 230 BC the Empror Chin Shih Huang Ti was already saying : " To breathe is to live, To breathe badly is to live badly. To breathe a little is to live a little, one should cultivate the body and the spirit in order to obtain a real breath."

Hendrik

03-11-2013, 11:36 AM

Tongue to the roof is helping the breath easier and deeper.
However, that is not a preplacement for the lower abs phyicsl motion naturally develop which is the true lower abs breathing, instead of just a deeper breathing. Lots of people do misunderstand.

True, one must not think about it .
As I mention above
The process I present in the utube
Don't even need to think much, Just Standing loose, shift weight slightly while exhale.

Proper breathing is important, but if you think about too many details you'll kill it. It's simply a matter of learning to breath deeply from the abdomen and not the chest. If you are properly in your Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma stance and your tongue is gently touching the roof of your mouth, it's kind of hard to not breath properly.

All the guy in the video had to say was that. Don't over complicate things.

Hendrik

03-11-2013, 11:41 AM

Theory in Chinese is called kung li. The process is called Kung fa.

Without kung Fa one cannot get into the state disregards how one think theory.

"Inhaling is yin, energy enters the body, exhaling is yang, energy is spread, thorough the body. 230 BC the Empror Chin Shih Huang Ti was already saying : " To breathe is to live, To breathe badly is to live badly. To breathe a little is to live a little, one should cultivate the body and the spirit in order to obtain a real breath."

Ali. R

03-11-2013, 12:00 PM

The Lower Dantian is regarded as the center of physical strength and source of stamina, which is consider to be a major storage area for all types of kidney energies, and is closely connected or linked to our prenatal energies and develops the foundation for all types of Yang energies in the body and Yin, Jing, Qi energies as well.

While developing the Lower Dantian and understanding its functions one will start to gather energy from the earth. The”Lower Dantian” is a part of the first level of Wei Qi (protective Qi) that circulates outside of the body’s tissue, and as the Lower Dantian develops through mental intervention/lower abs breathing, the protective Qi becomes stronger or thicker.

LaRoux

03-11-2013, 12:29 PM

Lower abs breathing makes about as much sense as knee breathing.

Hendrik

03-11-2013, 12:39 PM

Ali,

Great!

In the yik kam SLT kuen kuit.

It is said:

Line 1: Collect the yee or intention, meeting with the Shen or awareness , in the equal shoulder stance .

Line 5: Union in the (low) dan dien , du medirian, sink.

THe nature lower abs Breathing utube is the basic kung Fa or process to practice these two lines. Without the kung Fa or process Reveal, one can spend a life time to guess what it is but still don't know and not sure what it is. In the ancient Chinese tradition, With Kung Fa, one right away identify the phenomenon, that is called enter the door, that is the begining of inner door student.

For healing there are those who just practice standing in the neutral stance and practice the natural lower abs breathing for hour and get good health improvement results.

For those who practice the six healing sounds healing , the standing in neutral stance and natural lower abs breathing practice are a must prerequisite . Only after one can handle these prerequisite with ease in loose, quiet , and natural Way, then one is taught the six healing sounds. Everything is simple stuffs, but needs to be proceed step by step and master every step.

The Lower Dantian is regarded as the center of physical strength and source of stamina, which is consider to be a major storage area for all types of kidney energies, and is closely connected or linked to our prenatal energies and develops the foundation for all types of Yang energies in the body and Yin, Jing, Qi energies as well.

While developing the Lower Dantian and understanding its functions one will start to gather energy from the earth. The”Lower Dantian” is a part of the first level of Wei Qi (protective Qi) that circulates outside of the body’s tissue, and as the Lower Dantian develops through mental intervention/lower abs breathing, the protective Qi becomes stronger or thicker.

Ali. R

03-11-2013, 12:49 PM

Lower abs breathing makes about as much sense as knee breathing.

I’d felt the same way before I took a two year collage course in ‘Medical Qigong Therapy’ and was blown away from what I’ve learned. But you’re right, it’s easier to dismiss it and move on, but I'd just loved the educational challenge it gave me as a young martial artist back then.

Take care,

Hendrik

03-11-2013, 12:57 PM

Ali,

Great to know you have the course!

IMO, there are lots of these stuffs of WCK 1850 can be bring back to today.

The following also show the ancient wcner do know what they are talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqjKCj6d-p0

I’d felt the same way before I took a two year collage course in ‘Medical Qigong Therapy’ and was blown away from what I’ve learned. But you’re right, it’s easier to dismiss it and move on, but I'd just love the educational challenge it gave me as a young martial artist back then.

Take care,

Hendrik

03-11-2013, 01:09 PM

For those who is interested,

The yik transform four drills are selected to aids or boosting the training of the WCK three sets into porper path as the ancient .

They also brought healing effect , since these four drills are taken from qigong healing classical which has long term practice tract records. Every drill will evoke natural lower abs breathing .

So, yik kam transform is an attemp to bring back the 1850 wck practice for those who is interested and also its healing ability beyond combat applications.

The release of the red boat era siu Lin tau kuen kuit is the step taken to reveal to the wcners that WCK has rich inheritance from the past. It is of all lineages from red boat WCK era, instead of any lineages superiority. A WCK inheritance ready to be used by any wcners any where in the planet any nationality any race. Every wcners own it.

GlennR

03-11-2013, 02:06 PM

Ali,

Great to know you have the course!

IMO, there are lots of these stuffs of WCK 1850 can be bring back to today.

The following also show the ancient wcner do know what they are talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqjKCj6d-p0

Bwahahahahahaah!

Did you even read the title of the clip........... now its out!!!!

"The Breathing Box- Gay Hendricks"

ps. i could watch that girl all day though

wingchunIan

03-11-2013, 02:30 PM

Ali,

Great to know you have the course!

IMO, there are lots of these stuffs of WCK 1850 can be bring back to today.

The following also show the ancient wcner do know what they are talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqjKCj6d-p0

What a laugh, note to you and the bloke in the clip unborn babies don't breath they receive oxygenated blood across the placenta from their mother, they are suspended in fluid and subject to movements induced by their mother's muscles, bowels, diaphragm etc. Some people will believe anything

desertwingchun2

03-11-2013, 02:35 PM

For those who is interested,
Blah snake engine ... Blah Yik Kam Tranny .... Blah watch me punch a yoga balll

I think the two that are interested have left the building. Follow their lead.

Hendrik

03-11-2013, 02:36 PM

for those who is interested more on lower abs breathing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPwUFd1N9ck

LaRoux

03-11-2013, 02:47 PM

I’d felt the same way before I took a two year collage course in ‘Medical Qigong Therapy’ and was blown away from what I’ve learned. But you’re right, it’s easier to dismiss it and move on, but I'd just loved the educational challenge it gave me as a young martial artist back then.

Take care,

Do you even understand how human respiration works? Where do you think the air that is "breathed" goes? Do you think any of it goes into the "lower abdominals"? Do you even know what causes the air to be "taken in"?

wingchunIan

03-11-2013, 03:05 PM

Do you even understand how human respiration works? Where do you think the air that is "breathed" goes? Do you think any of it goes into the "lower abdominals"? Do you even know what causes the air to be "taken in"?

LaRoux whilst I don't agree with Hendrick's views, abdominal breathing is real and natural - more natural than breathing into the chest, simply watch any new born and see how much their tummy moves relative to how much their chest moves. To answer your question yes I understand respiration and also breathing which FYI are two totally different things :p. Breathing is the act of drawing air into the lungs by the creation of a partial vacuum by diaphragm moving down and in most cases expanding the chest cavity. Abdominal breathing is simply the action of creating the same vacuum by emphasising the diaphragm movement rather than the chest. Typical chest based breathing uses only the upper third to two thirds of the lungs and whilst sufficient is inefficient. Abdominal breathing draws air downwards into the lower parts of the lungs causing the abdomen to distend as the diaphragm moves down displacing the contents of the abdominal cavity. It is not mystical and is used by many top atheletes including distance runners, sprinters and swimmers. FWIW respiration is the process of exchanging oxygen and co2 across the cell boundary to facilitate energy release ;)

Ali. R

03-11-2013, 03:13 PM

Do you even understand how human respiration works? Where do you think the air that is "breathed" goes? Do you think any of it goes into the "lower abdominals"? Do you even know what causes the air to be "taken in"?

And I understand the way you feel about this subject judging from your previous posting and I chose not to irritate you any further, and I have no contempt against you what so ever and I do not want that to happen here between us.

I can feel the energy within your posting which lets me know that it wouldn’t be a good idea to go there with you, please forgive me if I caused any problems.

Take care, friend.

Ali

LaRoux

03-11-2013, 03:27 PM

LaRoux whilst I don't agree with Hendrick's views, abdominal breathing is real and natural - more natural than breathing into the chest, simply watch any new born and see how much their tummy moves relative to how much their chest moves. To answer your question yes I understand respiration and also breathing which FYI are two totally different things :p. Breathing is the act of drawing air into the lungs by the creation of a partial vacuum by diaphragm moving down and in most cases expanding the chest cavity. Abdominal breathing is simply the action of creating the same vacuum by emphasising the diaphragm movement rather than the chest. Typical chest based breathing uses only the upper third to two thirds of the lungs and whilst sufficient is inefficient. Abdominal breathing draws air downwards into the lower parts of the lungs causing the abdomen to distend as the diaphragm moves down displacing the contents of the abdominal cavity. It is not mystical and is used by many top atheletes including distance runners, sprinters and swimmers. FWIW respiration is the process of exchanging oxygen and co2 across the cell boundary to facilitate energy release ;)

There are two types of respiration- cellular respiration and physiological respiration. Physiological respiration is the exchange of carbon dioxide and oxygen between the environment and the body through the lungs. Technically, breathing is separate from each of these, but is required for both of them to occur.

Abdominal breathing is not natural, nor is chest breathing. Natural (and the most efficient breathing) is to use both the diaphram and the intercostal muscles. This is the type of breathing that endurnace athletes use. Also they don't have to having to "train" or "learn" how to do this.

The lower abdominal muscles have nothing to do with breathing.

Robinhood

03-11-2013, 03:42 PM

There are two types of respiration- cellular respiration and physiological respiration. Physiological respiration is the exchange of carbon dioxide and oxygen between the environment and the body through the lungs. Technically, breathing is separate from each of these, but is required for both of them to occur.

Abdominal breathing is not natural, nor is chest breathing. Natural (and the most efficient breathing) is to use both the diaphram and the intercostal muscles. This is the type of breathing that endurnace athletes use. Also they don't have to having to "train" or "learn" how to do this.

The lower abdominal muscles have nothing to do with breathing.

I like to do full body breathing , through the skin, what is that called ?

Vajramusti

03-11-2013, 03:58 PM

I like to do full body breathing , through the skin, what is that called ?
--------------------------------

Goldfinger would have known.

Hendrik

03-11-2013, 04:04 PM

That is called embryo breathing for the Chinese . One gets into that state when the norse breathing stop.

In the Buddhist practice of anapanasati, one get into this state when enter into samadhi. This state is the state where body rest and rebuild.

This thing are not out of the reach, as soon as one has the process, one can enter into it. People do practice for healing purpose. thin ever get their via thinking and intellect

I like to do full body breathing , through the skin, what is that called ?

Scott R. Brown

03-11-2013, 04:08 PM

....... I happened to notice that his spinal alignment does not consist of pathological forward head and thoracic kyphosis either...

Whew!

That's great to know. That was my biggest concern! :eek:

anerlich

03-11-2013, 04:25 PM

I like to do full body breathing , through the skin, what is that called ?

I don't know, but there are turtles that can breathe through their cloaca (a$$), and you asking that question brought them to mind.

wenshu

03-11-2013, 05:18 PM

at the same time, I happened to notice that his spinal alignment does not consist of pathological forward head and thoracic kyphosis either...

Hendrik's posture results from the erector spinae overcompensating for his overdeveloped pelvic floor muscles from years of man-Kegels practice.

Robinhood

03-11-2013, 05:20 PM

I don't know, but there are turtles that can breathe through their cloaca (a$$), and you asking that question brought them to mind.

Actually that is where you start, breath through your ass first , as you advance whole body breath.

wenshu

03-11-2013, 05:27 PM

breath through your ass first

Considering how adept you are at talking out of it, I'm not surprised.

GlennR

03-11-2013, 05:30 PM

Considering how adept you are at talking out of it, I'm not surprised.

****, you beat me to it!

Robinhood

03-11-2013, 05:42 PM

Considering how adept you are at talking out of it, I'm not surprised.

That might be because that is your level.

My whole body breath and talk now. You need to start at ass first.

anerlich

03-11-2013, 08:36 PM

My whole body breath and talk now. You need to start at ass first.

Funny, it sounds just like you are still talking out of your a$$ and have been all along

Hey, you really are a martial arsist !!!! (see the niem lik thread)

I'd probably start breathing with nose and mouth first, but to each their own.

anerlich

03-11-2013, 08:38 PM

One gets into that state when the norse breathing stop.

What do the Vikings have to do with this?

Vajramusti

03-11-2013, 08:50 PM

What do the Vikings have to do with this?

VVBG

I guess they did not know Anerlich humor.

GlennR

03-11-2013, 09:04 PM

What do the Vikings have to do with this?

Not a lot i would have thort

Sima Rong

03-11-2013, 10:29 PM

i think he means nose breathing guys. so what he is saying is that once you finish breathing through your nose you can breathe through your ass or the pores of your skin. it makes perfect sense really. but as bawang stresses , you have to learn to relax your ass when the fist comes towards you at this level of training.

Robinhood

03-11-2013, 10:36 PM

Sima Rong

03-11-2013, 10:47 PM

No, I thought you were. I don't wish to develop internal skill.

wingchunIan

03-12-2013, 02:58 AM

Abdominal breathing is not natural, nor is chest breathing. Natural (and the most efficient breathing) is to use both the diaphram and the intercostal muscles. This is the type of breathing that endurnace athletes use. Also they don't have to having to "train" or "learn" how to do this.

The lower abdominal muscles have nothing to do with breathing.

spoken like someone who has no idea what they are talking about. I have a good friend who is an international marathon runner, triathelete and cross country runner, when coaching others he always starts with how to breathe correctly as do most endurance sports coaches. You are also incorrect with your assessment of the most efficient way to breathe as expanding the chest using the intercostals requires significant energy to move what is a very heavy structure (ribs and pectorals etc) using very small muscles and also leads to shallow breathing as it imparts an upwards resistance to the diaphragm. Breathing deeply and calmly using the diaphragm is the most efficient way to breathe and this is why it is practised and used by top atheletes the world over.
I do agree however that your lower abdominal muscles have nothing whatsoever to do with the process and I have never said that they do.

Robinhood

03-12-2013, 09:34 AM

No, I thought you were. I don't wish to develop internal skill.

There are two types of respiration- cellular respiration and physiological respiration. Physiological respiration is the exchange of carbon dioxide and oxygen between the environment and the body through the lungs. Technically, breathing is separate from each of these, but is required for both of them to occur.

Abdominal breathing is not natural, nor is chest breathing. Natural (and the most efficient breathing) is to use both the diaphram and the intercostal muscles. This is the type of breathing that endurnace athletes use. Also they don't have to having to "train" or "learn" how to do this.

The lower abdominal muscles have nothing to do with breathing.

Here is the bottom line, natural is best. The problem comes from the body usually stops being natural the older you get. You are born and stay natural for a number of years, then tension starts to develop in the body at all different places for different reasons, and now you don't breath or do anything natural . So getting the tension and stiffness and over thinking out of the body and mind will help you get back to natural body, which will bring natural breathing.

Ali. R

03-12-2013, 10:01 AM

Here is the bottom line, natural is best. The problem comes from the body usually stops being natural the older you get. You are born and stay natural for a number of years, then tension starts to develop in the body at all different places for different reasons, and now you don't breath or do anything natural . So getting the tension and stiffness and over thinking out of the body and mind will help you get back to natural body, which will bring natural breathing.

If you watch how a new born baby breaths, the lower ads goes outward as he/she breaths in which is called reversed breathing (movement within the lower dantian).

Before our daily tenuous existence and levels of stress began in our everyday life’s, it’s the first and nature way of breathing, which helps the baby to develop nourishment to the brain, hair and skin.

Hendrik

03-12-2013, 10:21 AM

As usual, wcners send me thier feedback.

"Today before practice I watched your film on Ab breathing and incorporated the gentle rocking with the breath. This was excellent and made the practice quite different.

First it showed very clearly how much tension I am holding in my body which, when I worked on it, immediately created a much stronger sensation of the Qi field around me. "

Just take a few minute to test it to see result.

One can keep read and think and theoritize about God and only get thought. to know God one needs to pray.

desertwingchun2

03-12-2013, 10:59 AM

As usual, wcners send me thier feedback.

From all the forum members (less a couple) ridiculing you, I would bet the usual feedback goes the other way.

Ali. R

03-12-2013, 11:01 AM

actually reverse breathing is when the abdominals go in during inhalation;

You are correct typo on my behalf.

Ali. R

03-12-2013, 11:17 AM

Your opinions really let me know what you feel; not saying that your opinions are wrong because my facts come from collage texts books from the past (maybe yours as well).. But what you presented in your post are your opinions and from the very start I realized this:

Not necessarily; I've worked with lots of infants and toddlers who do not breathe "naturally" (or optimally);

This lets me know that you feel that he could be right in what he’s saying, in which shows your honesty.

I think the tensions develop a lot earlier than people would like to think, even immediately following delivery (if not before...)

This opinion could be very true, especially if the mother had no prenatal care or used drugs etc,,, anything genetic from the parents would/could develop later on in life.

I think part of the problem is that the child models the parent's breathing patterns from the get go - so if mom / dad have issues, the kid picks them up right away;

I find this opinion very confusing. Again,,,, anything genetic from the parents would develop later on in life, because every entity has its own fresh start dealing with transformation and development, and for the child to model the parents based on their health issues or behaviors (breathing) wouldn’t be a part of an infants transformation and development.

I enjoy your posting, and very much do value your opinions.

Take care,

Ali

LaRoux

03-12-2013, 01:36 PM

LaRoux

03-12-2013, 01:37 PM

spoken like someone who has no idea what they are talking about. I have a good friend who is an international marathon runner, triathelete and cross country runner, when coaching others he always starts with how to breathe correctly as do most endurance sports coaches.

If he starts with breathing, he is the clueless one.

LaRoux

03-12-2013, 01:40 PM

You are also incorrect with your assessment of the most efficient way to breathe as expanding the chest using the intercostals requires significant energy to move what is a very heavy structure (ribs and pectorals etc) using very small muscles and also leads to shallow breathing as it imparts an upwards resistance to the diaphragm. Breathing deeply and calmly using the diaphragm is the most efficient way to breathe and this is why it is practised and used by top atheletes the world over..

Research shows that conditioning of the intercostals is one of the training effects that goes on with endurance training. No high or medium level runner runs without using the intercostal muscles.

Ali. R

03-12-2013, 02:42 PM

LOL @ using how a baby breaths as optimal. Last time I checked, babies hardly do anything that is optimal. That is why they are helpless and why it takes 20 or so years to develop the optimal skills that enable one to be independent, fully functional human.

I’ve mention nothing about a babies breathing being strong or flawless, but only about the pattern in which it inhales air into its lungs (naturally), which happens to amplify movement within the lower diagram of the infants torso (dantian), everything else you’d just made up.

This is why I’d tried my best to stay away from you, because your posting is jumping the gun and all over the place, drawing conclusion on something I clearly didn’t say or suggest in any way. You’re too aggressive in your approach and clearly off within your rebuttal.

LaRoux

03-12-2013, 02:52 PM

I’ve mention nothing about a babies breathing being strong or flawless, but only about the pattern in which it inhales air into its lungs (naturally), which happens to amplify movement within the lower diagram of the infants torso (dantian), everything else you’d just made up.

This is why I’d tried my best to stay away from you, because your posting is jumping the gun and all over the place, drawing conclusion on something I clearly didn’t say or suggest in any way. You’re too aggressive in your approach and clearly off within your rebuttal.

"Natural" is rarely optimal.

GlennR

03-12-2013, 02:55 PM

"Natural" is rarely optimal.

Youre right, those lions and tigers and all those other animals need breathing training to be optimal

LaRoux

03-12-2013, 03:07 PM

Youre right, those lions and tigers and all those other animals need breathing training to be optimal

In one respect you are right on the money. Breathing is "natural" in that it does not have to be learned by doing special breathing techniques (I'm pretty sure there are no animals practicing lower ab breathing).

What I should have said is that "natural" in an infant is rarely optimal. Infants are helpless because so many things they do are not fully developed yet.

Breathing as seen in an infant animal is not optimal (just as its running or hunting abilities are not optimal). Animals, just like humans, "learn" their breathing as they are learning their other skills. It is part of the whole package that comes along with those other skills.

Training a marathon runner (or fighter) how to breathe through his abs makes about as much sense as a mother lion teaching her cubs how to breath through their abs when they are hunting.

wingchunIan

03-12-2013, 03:08 PM

If he starts with breathing, he is the clueless one.

The award for being clueless is well and truly yours, you demonstrate it with virtually every post and I am now bored. Congratulations you have made it onto my ignore list

LaRoux

03-12-2013, 03:13 PM

The award for being clueless is well and truly yours, you demonstrate it with virtually every post and I am now bored. Congratulations you have made it onto my ignore list

I accept your admission of defeat.

Scott R. Brown

03-12-2013, 03:18 PM

BTW, the claim that children/babies naturally abdominal breath as a is a myth! I specifically observe small children for this and not many actually do it!

Ali. R

03-12-2013, 03:21 PM

"Natural" is rarely optimal.

A child is not fully develop when it’s born, understood. But it needs to do natural things and have natural functions for its transformation and development, and if not; it will have brain damage, become blind of even lame.

If it’s transformation and development does not flow with nature, then the child could (Lord forbid) die. Once again you’re not making any sense.

Ali.

LaRoux

03-12-2013, 03:25 PM

A child is not fully develop when it’s born, understood. But it needs to do natural things and have natural functions for its transformation and development, and if not; it will have brain damage, become blind of even lame.

If it’s transformation and development does not flow with nature, then the child could (Lord forbid) die. Once again you’re not making any sense.

Ali.

Of course a child needs natural functions to survive. It doesn't make these functions optimal, however.

Looking at a child's breathing as somehow being optimal makes about as much sense as looking at his ability to do a 200 meter run as being optimal.

GlennR

03-12-2013, 03:27 PM

Of course a child needs natural functions to survive. It doesn't make these functions optimal, however.

Looking at a child's breathing as somehow being optimal makes about as much sense as looking at his ability to do a 200 meter run as being optimal.

Yeh, but if that baby did ermai 5 layer yik kam transform in the womb, it would have been optimal when it was born

Ali. R

03-12-2013, 03:40 PM

Of course a child needs natural functions to survive. It doesn't make these functions optimal, however.

Looking at a child's breathing as somehow being optimal makes about as much sense as looking at his ability to do a 200 meter run as being optimal.

Again,

I’ve mention nothing about a babies breathing being strong or flawless (optimal), but only about the pattern in which it inhales air into its lungs (naturally), which happens to amplify movement within the lower diagram of the infants torso (dantian), everything else you’d just made up.

This is why I’d tried my best to stay away from you, because your posting is jumping the gun and all over the place, drawing conclusion on something I clearly didn’t say or suggest in any way. You’re too aggressive in your approach and clearly off within your rebuttal.

Ali.

LaRoux

03-12-2013, 03:46 PM

Again,

I’ve mention nothing about a babies breathing being strong or flawless (optimal), but only about the pattern in which it inhales air into its lungs (naturally), which happens to amplify movement within the lower diagram of the infants torso (dantian), everything else you’d just made up.

This is why I’d tried my best to stay away from you, because your posting is jumping the gun and all over the place, drawing conclusion on something I clearly didn’t say or suggest in any way. You’re too aggressive in your approach and clearly off within your rebuttal
Ali.

Here's what you said:

If you watch how a new born baby breaths, the lower ads goes outward as he/she breaths in which is called reversed breathing (movement within the lower dantian).

Before our daily tenuous existence and levels of stress began in our everyday life’s, it’s the first and nature way of breathing, which helps the baby to develop nourishment to the brain, hair and skin.

This is what makes zero sense.