Hua Quan 華拳 Question

[TopCrusader]

It is my understanding that 'Hua' can refer to "Flowery Fist", Hua (the Mountain Range) as well has being a term for China in general.

So, how can one distinguish between somebody using "Hua Quan" and meaning a general term for "Chinese Fist" or referring specifically to Hua Quan the northern Longfist style? Or am i mistaken and Hua Quan is never used as a general/generic term for Chinese Fist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaquan

Thanks!

[MarathonTmatt]

Hi- I am a student training in the Hua Quan longfist style. As I understand it, saying Hua Quan "China Fist" as a generic term for Chinese martial arts and also being a specific style is BOTH correct. Which is why it's a bit confusing. Usually, when referring to Hua Quan with the Chinese characters you wrote, then one is referring to a specific style- "Hua Quan- Glorious/Splendorous (synonymous with the word Chinese) Fist, aka the fist of Hua Mountain (its perceived general place of origin), aka "Kung Fu of Essence," this is the style referred to that was practiced in Shandong Province by the Cai family for countless generations. So the traditional system is also an old family style. Grandmaster Cai Long Yun is a famous martial artist of this style, and Vice-chairman of the Chinese Wushu Assoc.
The first written records of the Cai family in connection w/ the Hua Quan style was from the Tang Dynasty (7th, 8th century AD), and some are inclined to believe the style is still older than that. So think about it. That makes the style, in whatever original form it was in (said to have 48 hand sets) older than most styles today. And this is true with the rest of the Northern Longfist family. In fact, it makes it older than Emperor's Longfist (10th century- 1st Song Emperor)- which was probably just the emperor's personal boxing routines based on other systems of longfist boxing, etc. (much like what the Chen family of Cenjiagou did w/ their art.) Therefore, one can view Hua Quan (with the charecters you wrote) as an old, historical classical Chinese system. It is said that the Longfist family is like a mother to all other Chinese martial arts- Tai Chi Quan came later. The animal styles came later. Styles like Baji-quan, Fanzhi-quan, Crane style, that specialize in different methods/ ways of issuing power came later- but usually all this can be found within longfist- that's why some think longfist is generic, but when mastered can be VERY high level. Heck, even a style like Wing Chun was modified from other systems, etc. These techniques can be found in longfist too, if one has a mind for it. It may not be over-emphasized in the training, but it's there. With a foundation in longfist I hear its easier to pick up other styles. So that's why, to my understanding, Hua Quan is referred to as China fist- it is an older style, a lot of the time modified and absorbed into other styles over the centuries (like say, Shandong Praying Mantis) which is one reason the specific Hua Quan style is kinda rare. So people usually refer to their kung fu as specific styles, but when you go back in history, the vast, broad curriculum of the Hua Quan system and styles like it are like a mother to these other arts. It is kung fu of essence... This is how I understand it thru listening to my teachers, and through my own personal research. Hope that makes it at least a bit clearer.
-Matt.

[YouKnowWho]

Hua (the Mountain Range)

I don't think the Hua mountain at the west side of China has anything to do with the longfist Hua branch. I had visited that mountain. I didn't see anybody trained that style there.

Besides 花(flower), Hua also mean 滑(smooth). It's one of the 5 major branches of the longfist system.

[bawang]

all the hua quan are the same system. they have different writing because of illiteracy.

[David Jamieson]

Hua is one of the big 5 northern styles.

the others being: Fa, Pao, Cha and Hong

[lkfmdc]

I don't think the Hua mountain at the west side of China has anything to do with the longfist Hua branch. I had visited that mountain. I didn't see anybody trained that style there.



Unfortunately, we have in TCMA too many systems who get stuff attached to them that NEVER were originally attached to them... to get "rep" or credibility or to seem more "cool" people said their systems were from old monks, monasteries, different regions, etc


all the hua quan are the same system. they have different writing because of illiteracy.

The problem with illiteracy and "white characters" is a HUGE ONE in TCMA

[YouKnowWho]

Hua is one of the big 5 northern styles.

the others being: Fa, Pao, Cha and Hong

I believe Fa should be Tan (Tan Tui).

[TopCrusader]

MarathonTmatt,
Thankyou for the lengthy response!

Would you consider Hua Quan a Northern Shaolin style?

[mickey]

Greetings MarathonTmatt and welcome to the forum,

Would you please clarify something for me?

I read somewhere on the net that it was not Chao Lien Ho who introduced the 12 line Tan Tui to the Ching Wu curriculum. It was the father of Cai Long Yun. Is this true?

If so, do you maintain the stomping and shouting methods?


mickey

[mooyingmantis]

The problem with illiteracy and "white characters" is a HUGE ONE in TCMA

What are "white characters"? Thank you!

[Jimbo]

What are "white characters"? Thank you!

I'm going to guess it refers to Chinese characters with different meanings, that might be incorrectly substituted for others that sound the same/similar(?).

[MarathonTmatt]

Unfortunately, we have in TCMA too many systems who get stuff attached to them that NEVER were originally attached to them... to get "rep" or credibility or to seem more "cool" people said their systems were from old monks, monasteries, different regions, etc


Good point! In reading the history of the style it said the boxing techniques were compiled and collected from the general region of Hua Shan itself (not particularly from the mountain) and spread out from there- and the Cai family had an ancestor from this area- but who knows that could just be legend. What we can say for sure is that the system itself comes from the Cai family, from Shandong province. The flavor of the style is very much like other Shandong longfist styles- when I see certain Cha Quan routines I think "wow looks stylistically similar to Hua Quan".

[MarathonTmatt]

MarathonTmatt,
Thankyou for the lengthy response!

Would you consider Hua Quan a Northern Shaolin style?

It is most definitely a northern style. I know there is a specific style that calls itself "Northern Shaolin" which is not the same style (or lineage) per se but similar in technique, form, etc.
There are a few basic sets of forms originally from the Hua Quan style that is practiced by modern Shaolin practitioners- such as "Babu Quan" aka called "Babu Lian Hua(n)" by people who train the form who aren't necessarily Hua Quan practitioners- you can see Hua is in the name "Babu Lian Hua", meaning, "this comes from the Hua system." Also the Hua form "Sher Ba Quan" was adopted into the Lohan 18 Hand sets.
I also believe if I'm not mistaken that the core training of the Shaolin temple was originally LongFist, later replaced by other styles.
I also heard Hua Quan was Taoist in origin- it definitely emphasizes fluid movements, not having to be "hard" all the time- sort of a grey area or in the middle of soft training methods like Tai Ji Quan and harder training methods like a Buddhist style- but this is a trademark of northern styles in general.
So Hua Quan is definitely inter-related to other Chinese martial arts. I personally wouldn't call it Shaolin, although it could share historical influences with Shaolin (as we see from Babu Lian Huan & Sher Ba Quan) and other arts (longfist).

[bawang]

hua quan is just hong quan. arabs cant pronounce "ong", and some Chinese dialects also don't have "ong"

[MarathonTmatt]

Greetings MarathonTmatt and welcome to the forum,

Would you please clarify something for me?

I read somewhere on the net that it was not Chao Lien Ho who introduced the 12 line Tan Tui to the Ching Wu curriculum. It was the father of Cai Long Yun. Is this true?

If so, do you maintain the stomping and shouting methods?


mickey

Hi good to meet you and sorry for the late response. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if Cai Gui Qin (Cai Long Yun's father) influenced in some way, directly or indirectly, the 12 line Tan Tui of the Ching Wu curriculum. He was a very influential and famous martial artist during the same time era Ching Wu Assoc. was founded. I have never heard that story though, although I do know Cai Gui Qin met with Sun-Yat-Sen, and also Qiu Jin, a woman revolutionary, and I'm sure countless other influential martial artists/ people.
Hua Quan style does have a a set of 12 core forms at the base of it's curriculum although each one of these forms is a complete training form unto itself and can also be practiced as two-man sets- then of course the advanced roads, long and short weapons, etc.
I do see similar techniques in tan tui that are also found in the hua quan core forms. So there could be a Cai Cui Qin/ Hua influence to the tan tui sets, I have never heard of that, but thanks for bringing that up because it wouldn't be surprising if there was that influence.

[MarathonTmatt]

hua quan is just hong quan. arabs cant pronounce "ong", and some Chinese dialects also don't have "ong"

thanks, that makes sense.

[MarathonTmatt]

Greetings MarathonTmatt and welcome to the forum,

Would you please clarify something for me?

I read somewhere on the net that it was not Chao Lien Ho who introduced the 12 line Tan Tui to the Ching Wu curriculum. It was the father of Cai Long Yun. Is this true?

If so, do you maintain the stomping and shouting methods?


mickey

Aye- In my mind I was actually thinking of the form "Gong Li Quan" from the Chin Woo Assoc. when you said "Tan Tui." Hua basically covers the same techniques in some of it's basic sets as the Gong Li Quan set does, but also a slew of other techniques- Hua def. has its own distinct flavor. I always thought the Tan Tui routines were taken from the Cha Quan system? But anyway it is good to talk- whether or not Cai Gui Qin influenced Chin Woo in any way I personally do not know- but he was a famous martial artist from the same time period.
My teacher's school maintains stomping methods reminiscent of something like say, how they stomp in the Chen style of Tai Chi. I have trained alongside other students who were former Wah Lum students and they had to work on taking their stomping out for Hua Quan- the old long-fist manual says "practice boxing like a boat floating on water, running along smoothly for a thousand miles." Our style also has hard slapping, and as for shouting we try to control our breathing, conserve our energy and conceal or breathe- sort of like Tai Chi on steroids.

[zhua]

Huaquan has been around since about 420 AD, not the 7th or 8th century.



http://www.mauryskungfu.com/site/view/71557_LongFistKungFu.pml


First paragraph in, this is a legitimate source.

- Zac

[pazman]

First paragraph in, this is a legitimate source.


No it's not.

[David Jamieson]

Huaquan has been around since about 420 AD, not the 7th or 8th century.



http://www.mauryskungfu.com/site/view/71557_LongFistKungFu.pml


First paragraph in, this is a legitimate source.

- Zac

It jumps right out at you right away actually.

For instance:
"This style of kung fu dates back to the Former Song Dynasty - 420 AD (and many believe it may have been in existence long before that)."

Song Dynasty - 960CE until 1279CE


Leads one to question the accuracy.

[GeneChing]

...you should read Huaquan: In Search of the Roots of Modern Changquan By Emilio Alpanseque in our MAR+APR 2015 issue (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1200), currently on the newsstands (assuming you still have newsstands in your neighborhood :o)

[MarathonTmatt]

To weigh in. I don't want to sound like I know it all cause I don't, but-

the Former Song Dynasty is also known as the Liu Song Dynasty (420-479) (different from the later, more significant time period of the Song Dynasty). Wiki article here-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Song_dynasty

The legends/ historical record (blurry line, there) of the Cai family's ancestor Cai Mao is from the earlier Liu Song period. However it is unknown exactly what his martial arts training was like. the historical record has him slaying someone from an opposing noble family. Therefore he must have been a trained warrior. However, to say that his art was "HuaQuan" as we know it today just isn't the case. I think it is safe to say that he wasn't training the art of Huaquan or a long-fist style as we know it today. It does, however, tell us that the Cai family has a long martial arts tradition within their family (such is the case with many Chinese families).

To be fair, how different is the 1st generation of Chen style practitioners (of Chen Tai Chi) compared to the current generation in Chen Jiagou- the art wouldn't be quite the same.

To trace the modern roots of HuaQuan it should be more reasonable to look at how master's such as Cai Longyun, and his father, Cai GuiGin (and his grandfather, etc)- people within these era's, have developed the familie's art to how it is trained today.

Oh, and Mr. Gene Ching thanks for putting out the mag, I def. pick it up off the newstands. They still do exist in some cases.

My humble thoughts on all this. Don't get caught up in "i train a specific style that is 2,000 years old" or something because this is never the case. Everything ebbs and flows with time, and many changes can happen even within one short generation.

[Tainan Mantis]

First possible historical mention of Hua Quan is circa 1560 囮拳. "Hua" (or "E' or "you") Means the "Decoy Fist" in General Qi's New Book on Effective Training. Independent indexes of Ming era martial arts written during the Ming Dynasty fail to mention this style.

Bawang's statement that alternate characters for 囮 were used due to illiteracy is most likely accurate. As is recorded in several Ming era military manuals of the Ming this martial art, or another one similar to it, was used as an introductory training for new recruits in the military. Proficiency in this style allowed one to progress to staff and weapons.

[bawang]

no chinese kung fu is older early ming dynasty. if ur a exotic oriental martial art window shopper seeking only the most ancient archaic mysterious martial art do catch wrestling.

[David Jamieson]

To weigh in. I don't want to sound like I know it all cause I don't, but-

the Former Song Dynasty is also known as the Liu Song Dynasty (420-479) (different from the later, more significant time period of the Song Dynasty). Wiki article here-



This provides some clarification, but at that time there were multiple dynasties. I think it's 8 altogether in and around that time period.