Wing chun kuen What happen in 1855

[Hendrik]

So, today we have data to see what extremely likely to happen in 1850 wing Chun kuen evolution.


1. 1855 is the years Lee Man Mau lead his army toward kwang Xi and the burning of fine jade in canton.

2. Prio to 1855, wing Chun is taugh in a one set system. Where we know, both the Wong wah Bo line and the yik kam line inherited them. One can read the Wong wah Bo inheritance of one set system from Leung Jan teaching.


3. At 1855, lee man mau and his hung mun army when to kwan Xi and start up a kingdom called the great achievement kingdom. This is recorded in the Chinese history. Yik kam is a supporter of lee man mau army. Both of them are opera artists.

While in canton, the Qing destroy the fine jade which involve the traitors of hung mun, after the burning, the fut Shan group which lead by Leung LAN Kwai or nick name Ng mui, reorganize the WCK one set system into a three sets system , which is application focus different then the one sets system which is body of the art and application balance focus. The intention is to quickly capable of revenging against the traitors,

These traitors are either hung mun traitor or taiping heavenly kingdom traitor, they are CLF train. This is where the sensitivity between WCK and CLF started.

But WCK and CLF are allied in the uprising to against Qing infact, As one can see from the evidence of lee man mau group in kwang Xi, namely, the yik kam lineage or WCK and the co existance of the WCK and CLF in the cho family art.

So, the group went to kwang Xi with lee man mau doesn't adapt to the three sets system because they are in a different location. While the fut Shan WCK group adapted the three sets system as the standard there on, and one can see these with the art Leung Jan passing down, with both one set system and three sets system , but one set system fade away.


4. as from the Leung jan and many red boat WCK teaching, WCK is a family art which passed by the yim family to the Leong family, from leong LAN Kwai genertion WCK spread out to the wong wah Bo, yik kam......etc . The members are limited to family relative, close friends in hung mun, or within red boat opera. after the 1855 fine jade assocition destruction it further spread out in the red boat related members.


5. The story of burning of shao Lin is about the burning of fine jade association, Ng mui is leong LAN Kwai, the cretion of shao lin art against qing is the creation of three sets to revenge the traitor 1855.


6. Thus, we know any lineage of WCK which goes Pre 1855 is a one set system. Three sets system is post 1855. Via the kuen kuit of the one set system and three sets system of this era we can observe what is WCK very likely to be in that era.


7. Wing Chun is not weng Chun. As we know the wing chun history above and also the kuen kuit of siu Lin tau in that era. As for weng Chun Evidentally it evolve CLF set such as the peng kuen which is a very different combart principle and engine development.

[Grumblegeezer]

A very nice story, thank you. Is there any evidence to support the details as they relate to Wing Chun history?

[Hendrik]

A very nice story, thank you. Is there any evidence to support the details as they relate to Wing Chun history?

Sure, it is based on Chinese history facts and evidence.

There will be an article in the new martial hero hong kong magazine which present these in details from different source of the history.

From the chinese history side, the triad side, the qing side, the WCK lineages side, the technical signature side....etc . These data support the above WCK story.


These result of the research is make public to promote more research into it. We might not know the exact but we know the ball park because we do have access to critical keys elements of 1855.


Let the evidence speaks. The more wcners research the better. I am just one of wcner.

[Hendrik]

Lee man mau's order in writing

http://www.fotoe.com/image/10943052

[Hendrik]

Sword of the small knive society Shang hai , the ally of lee man mau of 1854 uprising. They all hung mun members same with yik kam.

http://www.google.com/search?q=點春堂+小刀會&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=5&gs_ri=tablet-gws&qe=6bue5pil5aCCIOWwj-WIgOacgyDlnJY&qesig=6Nh8-QU7afrYYT8hoBKuVQ&pkc=AFgZ2tnmwKgaK20mDeknNXWhtKJgsWHxFVkTmqvyXP9cPT KaPL89CFumoXXlOuD5krVytGLL6faM3dy1d8NN3xqkP74pkk_c dg&pq=點春堂%20小刀會&cp=9&gs_id=c&xhr=t&q=點春堂+小刀會+圖&es_nrs=true&pf=p&sclient=tablet-gws&client=safari&oq=點春堂+小刀會+圖&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&bvm=bv.43287494,d.aWM&fp=efdb48443b464c00&biw=1024&bih=672&biv=i%7C10%3Bd%7CdhTAul1xQ4ipVM%3A



Point spring hall of Shang hai , the head quarter of the small knive society.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%26%2340670%3B%26%2326149%3B%26%2322530%3 B+%26%2323567%3B%26%2320992%3B%26%2326371%3B&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=5&gs_ri=tablet-gws&qe=6bue5pil5aCCIOWwj-WIgOacgyDlnJY&qesig=6Nh8-QU7afrYYT8hoBKuVQ&pkc=AFgZ2tnmwKgaK20mDeknNXWhtKJgsWHxFVkTmqvyXP9cPT KaPL89CFumoXXlOuD5krVytGLL6faM3dy1d8NN3xqkP74pkk_c dg&pq=%26%2340670%3B%26%2326149%3B%26%2322530%3B%20%2 6%2323567%3B%26%2320992%3B%26%2326371%3B&cp=9&gs_id=c&xhr=t&q=%26%2340670%3B%26%2326149%3B%26%2322530%3B+%26%2 323567%3B%26%2320992%3B%26%2326371%3B+%26%2322294% 3B&es_nrs=true&pf=p&sclient=tablet-gws&client=safari&oq=%26%2340670%3B%26%2326149%3B%26%2322530%3B+%26% 2323567%3B%26%2320992%3B%26%2326371%3B+%26%2322294 %3B&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=1&biw=1024&bih=672&bav=on.2,or.&cad=b&sei=NI0_UZf4JMSYqwGZsoGoCw&biv=i%7C9%3Bd%7CC1lipJKBxq880M%3A



Spring means opera.

One can read about this connection in here
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.ShanghaiConnectionWingChunDimChun AmpSiuDoWui-ByHendrikSanto


Next time you are in Shang hai go there and take some photo with the knive of 1855 era exhibit

[JPinAZ]

So basically, what you did was take a bunch of stories you read on the internet (many of which are unverifiable), put them together as what you think may have happened? And now an article is coming out which will prove it all eh? :rolleyes: What an a55-clown.

What is most rediculous is your ide of WCK and CLF 'coming together' to do anything. You make it sound like there was a big gang of WCK people coming together with another gang of CLF people. What is this, west side story? Very interesting story, but that's all it is - your made up his-story to try in vain, yet again, to pass off this one-set theory of yours. You have no evidence of any of this.
Nice try but I think I'd rather read Dr. Suess.

[GlennR]

Sword of the small knive society Shang hai , the ally of lee man mau of 1854 uprising. They all hung mun members same with yik kam.

http://www.google.com/search?q=點春堂+小刀會&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=5&gs_ri=tablet-gws&qe=6bue5pil5aCCIOWwj-WIgOacgyDlnJY&qesig=6Nh8-QU7afrYYT8hoBKuVQ&pkc=AFgZ2tnmwKgaK20mDeknNXWhtKJgsWHxFVkTmqvyXP9cPT KaPL89CFumoXXlOuD5krVytGLL6faM3dy1d8NN3xqkP74pkk_c dg&pq=點春堂%20小刀會&cp=9&gs_id=c&xhr=t&q=點春堂+小刀會+圖&es_nrs=true&pf=p&sclient=tablet-gws&client=safari&oq=點春堂+小刀會+圖&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&bvm=bv.43287494,d.aWM&fp=efdb48443b464c00&biw=1024&bih=672&biv=i%7C10%3Bd%7CdhTAul1xQ4ipVM%3A



Point spring hall of Shang hai , the head quarter of the small knive society.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%26%2340670%3B%26%2326149%3B%26%2322530%3 B+%26%2323567%3B%26%2320992%3B%26%2326371%3B&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=5&gs_ri=tablet-gws&qe=6bue5pil5aCCIOWwj-WIgOacgyDlnJY&qesig=6Nh8-QU7afrYYT8hoBKuVQ&pkc=AFgZ2tnmwKgaK20mDeknNXWhtKJgsWHxFVkTmqvyXP9cPT KaPL89CFumoXXlOuD5krVytGLL6faM3dy1d8NN3xqkP74pkk_c dg&pq=%26%2340670%3B%26%2326149%3B%26%2322530%3B%20%2 6%2323567%3B%26%2320992%3B%26%2326371%3B&cp=9&gs_id=c&xhr=t&q=%26%2340670%3B%26%2326149%3B%26%2322530%3B+%26%2 323567%3B%26%2320992%3B%26%2326371%3B+%26%2322294% 3B&es_nrs=true&pf=p&sclient=tablet-gws&client=safari&oq=%26%2340670%3B%26%2326149%3B%26%2322530%3B+%26% 2323567%3B%26%2320992%3B%26%2326371%3B+%26%2322294 %3B&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=1&biw=1024&bih=672&bav=on.2,or.&cad=b&sei=NI0_UZf4JMSYqwGZsoGoCw&biv=i%7C9%3Bd%7CC1lipJKBxq880M%3A



Spring means opera.

One can read about this connection in here
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.ShanghaiConnectionWingChunDimChun AmpSiuDoWui-ByHendrikSanto


Next time you are in Shang hai go there and take some photo with the knive of 1855 era exhibit

More "scientific research".......

Its not.

Never was.

And never will be.

Its you grasping at straws trying to find evidence to make you theories fit.

[kung fu fighter]

So, today we have data to see what extremely likely to happen in 1850 wing Chun kuen evolution.


1. 1855 is the years Lee Man Mau lead his army toward kwang Xi and the burning of fine jade in canton.

2. Prio to 1855, wing Chun is taugh in a one set system. Where we know, both the Wong wah Bo line and the yik kam line inherited them. One can read the Wong wah Bo inheritance of one set system from Leung Jan teaching.


3. At 1855, lee man mau and his hung mun army when to kwan Xi and start up a kingdom called the great achievement kingdom. This is recorded in the Chinese history. Yik kam is a supporter of lee man mau army. Both of them are opera artists.

While in canton, the Qing destroy the fine jade which involve the traitors of hung mun, after the burning, the fut Shan group which lead by Leung LAN Kwai or nick name Ng mui, reorganize the WCK one set system into a three sets system , which is application focus different then the one sets system which is body of the art and application balance focus. The intention is to quickly capable of revenging against the traitors,

These traitors are either hung mun traitor or taiping heavenly kingdom traitor, they are CLF train. This is where the sensitivity between WCK and CLF started.

But WCK and CLF are allied in the uprising to against Qing infact, As one can see from the evidence of lee man mau group in kwang Xi, namely, the yik kam lineage or WCK and the co existance of the WCK and CLF in the cho family art.

So, the group went to kwang Xi with lee man mau doesn't adapt to the three sets system because they are in a different location. While the fut Shan WCK group adapted the three sets system as the standard there on, and one can see these with the art Leung Jan passing down, with both one set system and three sets system , but one set system fade away.


4. as from the Leung jan and many red boat WCK teaching, WCK is a family art which passed by the yim family to the Leong family, from leong LAN Kwai genertion WCK spread out to the wong wah Bo, yik kam......etc . The members are limited to family relative, close friends in hung mun, or within red boat opera. after the 1855 fine jade assocition destruction it further spread out in the red boat related members.


5. The story of burning of shao Lin is about the burning of fine jade association, Ng mui is leong LAN Kwai, the cretion of shao lin art against qing is the creation of three sets to revenge the traitor 1855.


6. Thus, we know any lineage of WCK which goes Pre 1855 is a one set system. Three sets system is post 1855. Via the kuen kuit of the one set system and three sets system of this era we can observe what is WCK very likely to be in that era.


7. Wing Chun is not weng Chun. As we know the wing chun history above and also the kuen kuit of siu Lin tau in that era. As for weng Chun Evidentally it evolve CLF set such as the peng kuen which is a very different combart principle and engine development.

Hendrik,
A very unique perspective of wing chun history! i enjoyed reading it

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1218278]


So, the group went to kwang Xi with lee man mau doesn't adapt to the three sets system because they are in a different location. While the fut Shan WCK group adapted the three sets system as the standard there on, and one can see these with the art Leung Jan passing down, with both one set system and three sets system , but one set system fade away.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The one set system has not faded away. It takes time to be taught and to learn the full set.
The parts of the set are interconnected- but most students don't finish the set in a systematic way.

[Hendrik]

Believe what you like.

Facts always leave a track to be traced.



So basically, what you did was take a bunch of stories you read on the internet (many of which are unverifiable), put them together as what you think may have happened? And now an article is coming out which will prove it all eh? :rolleyes: What an a55-clown.

What is most rediculous is your ide of WCK and CLF 'coming together' to do anything. You make it sound like there was a big gang of WCK people coming together with another gang of CLF people. What is this, west side story? Very interesting story, but that's all it is - your made up his-story to try in vain, yet again, to pass off this one-set theory of yours. You have no evidence of any of this.
Nice try but I think I'd rather read Dr. Suess.

[GlennR]

Believe what you like.

Facts always leave a track to be traced.

Facts????

You wouldnt know the meaning of the word

[Hendrik]

Looking at what happen in the 1855,

Tan sau Ng doesnt play a role on the creation of the three sets .nor him is the creator of WCK as Pan nAm suggest, ip Chun endorse , and many support after that. A popular belive in the 1990,

If Tan sau Ng is the creator of wing Chun then what he teachers should be the one set system. Instead of the three sets system. Because the three sets system exist only hundreds of years after his time.

Also, as we already know today on the characteristics of siu nim tau in the red boat era 1850 is infact snake body crane limbs, which is still having a good picture in today's WCK across lineages as in yks , Ipman...etc. , Tan sau Ng had to Atleast practice the Fujian white crane and emei 12 zhuang to be the creator of the siu Lin tau. No shao Lin temple in chinese history has these two types of tehnology for the creation.


Thus, with these evidences and fact, we know Tan Sau Ng from shao lin of the northen china is extremely not likely to relate to wing Chun kuen of the red boat even he has big role in the red boat opera .

What is important to know is WCK is very closely related to kulo because the Leong family and the Wong wah poh, leong jan family relative relationship . These people are relative .

Yik kam learn WCK due to he is an opera player and hung mun, which is close to leong family member particular Leong LAN Kwai who is the dai siheng if not the assistance sifu at that era.

Thus, wing Chun kuen history is a great history with big back ground of chinese history , but it is not related to shaolin instead in the eyes of the uprising cyclone playing a significant role.


There is no myth, magic, but real blood and sweat which supporting an uprising era 1855.

The shadow of the swords in the uprising, the reflection of the water in the river of the red boat, the 1855 passed but not forgotten. The story of wing Chun kuen. A love before time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBGm15iuNVQ

[Hendrik]

If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountain disappeared,
If the seas ran dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes
The world I know fades away
But you stay



If the years take away
Every memory that I have
I would still know the way
That would lead me back to your side
The north star may die
But the light that I see in your eyes
Will burn there always




The history of wing chun kuen.

[Hendrik]

The art, the people, the history, and the era. All fits into a single picture.
It tells what happen, why, who, when, where and how.

Ten years ago people might not be able to accept it. Ten years later people will have even more accurate details to present it.


It is a time all WCK lineages union and strengthen the root , a neccesary step before the next evolution which grow wing Chun kuen further.


Hendrik,
A very unique perspective of wing chun history! i enjoyed reading it

[Hendrik]

Great sharing, the more WCK preserve the stronger the art. The better the further evolution is.


[QUOTE=Hendrik;1218278]


So, the group went to kwang Xi with lee man mau doesn't adapt to the three sets system because they are in a different location. While the fut Shan WCK group adapted the three sets system as the standard there on, and one can see these with the art Leung Jan passing down, with both one set system and three sets system , but one set system fade away.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The one set system has not faded away. It takes time to be taught and to learn the full set.
The parts of the set are interconnected- but most students don't finish the set in a systematic way.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1218442]Looking at what happen in the 1855,

Tan sau Ng doesnt play a role on the creation of the three sets .nor him is the creator of WCK as Pan nAm suggest, ip Chun endorse , and many support after that. A popular belive in the 1990,
================================================== =====

Neither Pan Nam or Ip Chun are historians.

Pan Nam tried to fuse what little wing chun he knew with hung ga in the stancing.
When Ip Chun talks about Ip Man as a father, I listen.. when he talks of wing chun history I basically tune out.
I have worked out with a kung fu "grandson" of Pan nam Ip Chun had little interest in wing chun till he came to HK in 1962... when Ip Man was winding up his teaching.

[Graham H]

Anything that Ip Chun endorses I would stay well clear of. :)

[Paul T England]

I have exchanged with the Pan Nam groups in Fatsan although never got to meet the main man as he had died when I started going over. They are generally a good bunch but their wing chun is not the best in fatsan. I think their hung kuen is better :)

Hendrik, how does Pao Fai Lien wing chun fit in with your history research?

Ip Chun openly admits he did not start wing chun properly until going to hong kong in 62. He also admits that he is passing on his fathers teachings and has little interest in fighting etc.

Wing Chun people need to remember old sayings and not be closed minded, ip chun can teach many fine things as can others with expeirence. A wise person can learn from others.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Graham H]

Ip Chun openly admits he did not start wing chun properly until going to hong kong in 62. He also admits that he is passing on his fathers teachings and has little interest in fighting etc.



How can this be possible? If Ip Chun hasn't been taught Wing Chun properly and has little interest in fighting then why the f**k is he revered as some sort of Grandmaster and has followers all over the world!?

Wing Chun is for fighting not meditating! If my Teacher said he no interest in fighting I would give him the flip! This is a big problem in Wing Chun.

Whatever Ip Man taught him maybe he wanted to be gentle with him or he might have got duffed up. I was told that Ip Chun had no interest in Wing Chun in the early years and was more interested in becoming a musician. Obviously more money can be made from using your Fathers name. :rolleyes: In that context fairplay to him.

[wingchunIan]

How can this be possible? If Ip Chun hasn't been taught Wing Chun properly and has little interest in fighting then why the f**k is he revered as some sort of Grandmaster and has followers all over the world!?

Wing Chun is for fighting not meditating! If my Teacher said he no interest in fighting I would give him the flip! This is a big problem in Wing Chun.

Whatever Ip Man taught him maybe he wanted to be gentle with him or he might have got duffed up. I was told that Ip Chun had no interest in Wing Chun in the early years and was more interested in becoming a musician. Obviously more money can be made from using your Fathers name. :rolleyes: In that context fairplay to him.

If a nearly 90 year old man declared that the only reason he trained Wing Chun was to fight I'd question his sanity. My si gung and his brother were taught by their father and asked by him to continue his teachings which they are doing (and I doubt that they would have been asked to do so had Ip Man not felt that they were suitably skilled). The differences between the lineages is actually very small when trained in close proximity to the source, but those differences seem to get larger and larger over time as the art spreads. It never ceases to sadden me that WSL, TST etc and the Ip familly all have / had mutual respect for each other's ability and differences and often taught side by side, yet successive generations have become more and more antagonistic and political.

[Graham H]

If a nearly 90 year old man declared that the only reason he trained Wing Chun was to fight I'd question his sanity. My si gung and his brother were taught by their father and asked by him to continue his teachings which they are doing (and I doubt that they would have been asked to do so had Ip Man not felt that they were suitably skilled). The differences between the lineages is actually very small when trained in close proximity to the source, but those differences seem to get larger and larger over time as the art spreads. It never ceases to sadden me that WSL, TST etc and the Ip familly all have / had mutual respect for each other's ability and differences and often taught side by side, yet successive generations have become more and more antagonistic and political.

That is the world we live in and it's not just Wing Chun that is effected. ;)

How much Kung Fu, if any, the two sons were taught by Ip Man will never be known. I find it bizarre they both have different ideas.

Bloodlines mean nothing in Kung Fu.

[Graham H]

............................in my opinion

[Graham H]

If a nearly 90 year old man declared that the only reason he trained Wing Chun was to fight I'd question his sanity.

He's never declared he can fight!

[BPWT]

My si gung and his brother were taught by their father and asked by him to continue his teachings which they are doing (and I doubt that they would have been asked to do so had Ip Man not felt that they were suitably skilled).

That's interesting. I heard/read that both Ip brothers were taught mostly by other Ip Man students, not so much from their father.

I never heard before that Ip Man asked them to teach.


It never ceases to sadden me that WSL, TST etc and the Ip familly all have / had mutual respect for each other's ability and differences and often taught side by side, yet successive generations have become more and more antagonistic and political.

I would add/change that to "successive generations in the West".

[Hendrik]

IMHO,

Pao Fa lien technologically is following the 1850 siu Lin tau core and snake body crance limbs practice . With its own variation.


As I have point out from the Tan Sau Ng case , WCK snake body crane limbs siu Lin tao has the ingredient of fujian white crane and emei snake, these ingredient cannot come from the north. It is like California wine is from napa valley cannot come from Arizona. When we know it is napa valley wine we know it has to be napa valley.



As for the shao Lin, anti Qing....etc, take a look at 1855 history of china, lots of people want to be a king. Are they really anti Qing?

http://www.w1ng.com/northern-internal-pao-fa-lien-wing-chun/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8ErY0gfLgY


So, History wise, also not derive too far from the 1855 popular triad uprising story variation. And ofcorse it is a story for the purpose to get the Chinese union to anti Qing.



So, IMHO, PFL wc is also a product of 1855 fut Shan WCK belong to a segment of WCK such as snake crane wc which also involve the triad uprising activity.


I have exchanged with the Pan Nam groups in Fatsan although never got to meet the main man as he had died when I started going over. They are generally a good bunch but their wing chun is not the best in fatsan. I think their hung kuen is better :)

Hendrik, how does Pao Fai Lien wing chun fit in with your history research?

Ip Chun openly admits he did not start wing chun properly until going to hong kong in 62. He also admits that he is passing on his fathers teachings and has little interest in fighting etc.

Wing Chun people need to remember old sayings and not be closed minded, ip chun can teach many fine things as can others with expeirence. A wise person can learn from others.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Hendrik]

As any complete tcma , WCK has two parts, the body of the art and the application of the Art.

It is never just fighting application.

A Chinese martial art certainly have the potential capability for fighting, but not necessary focus on fighting only.

One can teaches the art as an art, ie Chinese painting or qigong for health mind body development and place the fighting as secondary. That usually happen too.




How can this be possible? If Ip Chun hasn't been taught Wing Chun properly and has little interest in fighting then why the f**k is he revered as some sort of Grandmaster and has followers all over the world!?

Wing Chun is for fighting not meditating! If my Teacher said he no interest in fighting I would give him the flip! This is a big problem in Wing Chun.

Whatever Ip Man taught him maybe he wanted to be gentle with him or he might have got duffed up. I was told that Ip Chun had no interest in Wing Chun in the early years and was more interested in becoming a musician. Obviously more money can be made from using your Fathers name. :rolleyes: In that context fairplay to him.

[Hendrik]

This article is a triad stories based view which is very common in tcma,

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=141


The technology DNA and actual Chinese history based tracking research Of 1855 has much more accuratecy then these type of research or ideas. The technology DNA and Chinese history tracking research can answer, who, why, how, where, when. While the triad stories based will not get to the spot but circle around the triad stories and legend .

As in this case, in this article, where is the shao Lin it refer too, when is it happen, what technology DNA from that shao Lin can be traced. The article cannot get to that level to give a precise pin point. Thus, it cannot explain how is the stories from the triad related to siu Lin tau or the core of the WCK. As we relate California wine to napa valley. iPad to apple inc.

And as we know, decade later the author of this articke flip to white crane of fujian away from shao Lin.




Notice. 1855, no zen involve, no monks involve. No mystic. No shao Lin. But extremely political and survival.

[Graham H]

As any complete tcma , WCK has two parts, the body of the art and the application of the Art.

It is never just fighting application.

A Chinese martial art certainly have the potential capability for fighting, but not necessary focus on fighting only.

One can teaches the art as an art, ie Chinese painting or qigong for health mind body development and place the fighting as secondary. That usually happen too.

Address it how you want. To me it is a science of fighting. I don't attach any esoteric nonsense to it.

Breathing evolved long before Martial Arts. It's a natural neccessity for life. Why give it a name and chrage money in lessons on how to cultivate it?

No such thing as chi power, chi manipulation or chi anything. It's as bad as those who have imaginary friends that live in the sky.

[Hendrik]

So, are you talking WingChun kuen as it is.

Or are you talking the wing Chun kuen you think according to you?


Those are two different things.






Address it how you want. To me it is a science of fighting. I don't attach any esoteric nonsense to it.

Breathing evolved long before Martial Arts. It's a natural neccessity for life. Why give it a name and chrage money in lessons on how to cultivate it?

No such thing as chi power, chi manipulation or chi anything. It's as bad as those who have imaginary friends that live in the sky.

[Graham H]

So, are you talking WingChun kuen as it is.

Or are you talking the wing Chun kuen you think according to you?




I could ask you the same question

[wingchunIan]

I heard/read that that single phrase is at the heart of much of the politics in martial arts today

[wingchunIan]

How much Kung Fu, if any, the two sons were taught by Ip Man will never be known. I find it bizarre they both have different ideas.



Compare the body types of the two individuals and it is not so surprising that they have differing views on some aspects of the system. As with most of the direct students of Ip Man there is actually far more commonality than difference but what they do is inevitably influenced by body type and personality.

[BPWT]

that single phrase is at the heart of much of the politics in martial arts today

True, but 'heard/read' applies to all of us, no? None of us where there when Yip Man was teaching... so everything we 'know'... we heard from someone who tells us it is true ;)

[JPinAZ]

Wing Chun is for fighting not meditating! If my Teacher said he no interest in fighting I would give him the flip! This is a big problem in Wing Chun.


LOL, agreed - try telling this to that clown Hendrik though ;)

[Hendrik]

Sure,

And I describe the WCK according to and practice by the main stream chinese as is for the past 150 years



I could ask you the same question

[JPinAZ]

This article is a triad stories based view which is very common in tcma,

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=141

This is obviously troll bait in a desperate attempt for attention and to push your sorry a55 agenda. I'll only comment because others here might actually think you are on to something :rolleyes:


The technology DNA and actual Chinese history based tracking research Of 1855 has much more accuratecy then these type of research or ideas. The technology DNA and Chinese history tracking research can answer, who, why, how, where, when.

The more you talk, the more you show you ignorance and stupidity.
The above may be true of 1850's Red Boat WC - but only for your trumped up snake/crane version of it. You act like you know everything about every wing chun lineage out there, which you don't. Hell, you hardly even know your own lineage, which is why you can't fight and are constantly looking back into the past thru your mystical bouncing ball to peice it back together. And if you think you only have to look back as far as 1850's to understand WCK history, I'd say you're just scratching the surface - this is the period where we started to see WCK change, not where it was developed. Your snake/crane mubmo jumbo WC is a great example of this :)


While the triad stories based will not get to the spot but circle around the triad stories and legend .

Again, pure stupidity guesswork based on no real knowledge of anything.


As in this case, in this article, where is the shao Lin it refer too, when is it happen, what technology DNA from that shao Lin can be traced. The article cannot get to that level to give a precise pin point. Thus, it cannot explain how is the stories from the triad related to siu Lin tau or the core of the WCK. As we relate California wine to napa valley. iPad to apple inc.

Hey moron - it's a friggin article! No matter how you think otherwise, you're not going to learn much about WCK (let alone understand a complete system of WCK) from reading a single, short article. But people continue to do stupid things every day...

So, making guesses about DNA of other lineages without any knowledge or experience of them is simply idiotic and makes you look like a bigger clown that your clips do (ok, maybe the clips do it better). I offered several times to meet with you so you can stop the guessing and see HFY for yourself, and also to allow you the chance to show your the results of your 'theories'. Of course were too scared to be exposed as a fraud to take me up on my offed - but it's always there if you change your mind ;)

FWIW, and since the article is clearly about HFY: the DNA 'trace' of Hung Fa Yi is very evident to those that understand the core system technology, as well as it's links to history, culture and philosophies it came from. One example would be HFY's usage of Saam Mo Kiu Tin Yan Dei. One would have to have a pretty good understanding of all of these things to make the statements you are trying to make. Since you barely have a full grasp of your own snake/crane animal chop suey kung fu, stop embarrassing yourself further by guessing at things you know even less about.


Notice. 1855, no zen involve, no monks involve. No mystic. No shao Lin. But extremely political and survival.

What an idiot. 1600's 1700's and 1850 are all very different time periods. Ever look at a calendar?
No one said shaolin monks were running in 1850 on the Red Boats, not in the article you linked, and as far as I know, not on any of these forums. Also, you're only looking at the WCK that was on the Red Boats during the 1850's - there are other lineages that do not even stem from the red boats (HFY being one of them). Your desperate attempt to piece together things you have no idea about makes you look as retarded and desperate as your self-made bat wall humping porno clip.

Stick to what you do know: humping inanimate objects in your living room and leave the WCK to the sane people.

[Hendrik]

In the article,

It says

--------------

Paradigm Shift

The ten years intensive training required to master classical Shaolin postures was not logistically viable. This version of Wing Chun may have been created by a different group within the same Wing Chun Tong or the same group heavily influenced by military thinking from Ming Dynasty officers; either way, members of the Chu royal family, the former leaders of the Ming Dynasty, supported this group. This is the first time in the development of Shaolin fighting systems that time and space themselves became the focal point of design consideration. They provided the "idea" in the first level of Siu Nim Tao (Little Beginning Idea) training. The military implications of this decision are far too extensive for review here. Suffice it to say the physical science expertise of the monks, resulting from their relentless pursuit of the laws of nature and universal harmony, paired with the tactical and logistical training necessities confronting the professional soldiers, yielded the ultimate fighting system in terms of efficiency and effectiveness.



Wing Chun Flourishes


The second phase of Wing Chun development, Modification and Public Awareness, arose and flourished over the next 100 years. During this era, Wing Chun went through its third period of major change in form, footwork, and structure. Environmental and cultural factors such as exposure to life on boats in the southern coastal regions of China for over 100 years may have heavily influenced stances and training methodologies. The art began a transition from military employment to civilian use and support.

As a result of this transition, Wing Chun outside the Hung Fa Yi tradition began to discard its scientific orientation and revert back to a focus based on individual expressions and personal experience.

Likewise, students were no longer required to endure hours of initiation ceremonies and blood oaths to fight to the death for a specific cause. Nevertheless, Wing Chun's fighting effectiveness continued, as repeatedly demonstrated in challenge matches with other styles and individual opponents. The majority of today's most popular lineages stem from roots in this era. Two of those lineages stem from one man alone for each: Yip Man and Gu Lao (g? l?uh). Both originated from Dr. Leung Jan (l?uhng jaan), who learned his Wing Chun directly from Red Opera members. Others lineages include Pao Fa Lien (p?auh f? l?hn), Yuen Kay San (y?n k?ih-s?an), Pan Nam (p?ahng n?ahm), Nanyang (n?ahm y?uhng), Cho family (ch?uh ga), and numerous subsystems practiced throughout Southeast Asia.

The legends of Wing Chun's roots also flourished during this period. The famous story of a young woman trained by a Buddhist nun creating and disseminating the art through the Red Boat Opera became quite popular. Ex-revolutionaries distancing themselves from the secret societies and governmental persecution most likely promoted the popularity of this legend. Many popular Chinese fictional books and magazines were written and published at the turn of the century. Many fables about martial arts orientation resulted from the stories in these works, including the legend of Yim Wing Chun (y?hm wihng che?n). It is important for all students of history to note that these were purely fictional works, not historical treatises. Nevertheless, they still fueled legends.


The Commercialization Phase of Wing Chun represents its rapid expansion in modern day. This stage emerges in the mid-20th century with the flight of Wing Chun teachers from Mainland China resulting from political instability during China's civil war. Its popularity quickly spread across the globe, due primarily to the renowned fighting success of Yip Man's gong sau (talking hands) fighters and the movie-making success of Bruce Lee (l?ih s?u l?hng). Today, the Ving Tsun Athletic Association (wihng che?n t?i yuhk w?ih) in Hong Kong serves as a nexus for the Yip Man lineage. Along with rapid growth came the politicization of the art in the form of arguments over "who" inherited the real Wing Chun and the resultant rights to control its commercialization through franchises, certifying associations, publications, videos, internet entities, etc.


---------------


The discussion here is WCK history, not any lineage's , this article is published in A public magazine. Thus, it can be observe and investigate by wcners.

Well, sorry , both by technological DNA of tcma and history of china. What written in the article is not the case for WCK 1955 history .

Also, After a decade, the author switch view to white crane of fujian.


If any one has evidence to support the claim in this article above, please share them. I am open with it. I never take myself as the truth.





This is obviously troll bait in a desperate attempt for attention and to push your sorry a55 agenda. I'll only comment because others here might actually think you are on to something :rolleyes:



The more you talk, the more you show you ignorance and stupidity.
The above may be true of 1850's Red Boat WC - but only for your trumped up snake/crane version of it. You act like you know everything about every wing chun lineage out there, which you don't. Hell, you hardly even know your own lineage, which is why you can't fight and are constantly looking back into the past thru your mystical bouncing ball to peice it back together. And if you think you only have to look back as far as 1850's to understand WCK history, I'd say you're just scratching the surface - this is the period where we started to see WCK change, not where it was developed. Your snake/crane mubmo jumbo WC is a great example of this :)



Again, pure stupidity guesswork based on no real knowledge of anything.



Hey moron - it's a friggin article! No matter how you think otherwise, you're not going to learn much about WCK (let alone understand a complete system of WCK) from reading a single, short article. But people continue to do stupid things every day...

So, making guesses about DNA of other lineages without any knowledge or experience of them is simply idiotic and makes you look like a bigger clown that your clips do (ok, maybe the clips do it better). I offered several times to meet with you so you can stop the guessing and see HFY for yourself, and also to allow you the chance to show your the results of your 'theories'. Of course were too scared to be exposed as a fraud to take me up on my offed - but it's always there if you change your mind ;)

FWIW, and since the article is clearly about HFY: the DNA 'trace' of Hung Fa Yi is very evident to those that understand the core system technology, as well as it's links to history, culture and philosophies it came from. One example would be HFY's usage of Saam Mo Kiu Tin Yan Dei. One would have to have a pretty good understanding of all of these things to make the statements you are trying to make. Since you barely have a full grasp of your own snake/crane animal chop suey kung fu, stop embarrassing yourself further by guessing at things you know even less about.



What an idiot. 1600's 1700's and 1850 are all very different time periods. Ever look at a calendar?
No one said shaolin monks were running in 1850 on the Red Boats, not in the article you linked, and as far as I know, not on any of these forums. Also, you're only looking at the WCK that was on the Red Boats during the 1850's - there are other lineages that do not even stem from the red boats (HFY being one of them). Your desperate attempt to piece together things you have no idea about makes you look as retarded and desperate as your self-made bat wall humping porno clip.

Stick to what you do know: humping inanimate objects in your living room and leave the WCK to the sane people.

[JPinAZ]

The discussion here is WCK history, not any lineage's , this article is published in A public magazine. Thus, it can be observe and investigate by wcners.

Well, sorry , both by technological DNA of tcma and history of china. What written in the article is not the case for WCK 1955 history .

Also, After a decade, the author switch view to white crane of fujian.

Wrong. You're such a bumbling moron and once again you have no idea what it is your are even talking about. The author of the article is my first sifu, Richard J. Loewenhagen and I know for a fact that he has never excepted this white crane fujian source BS nonsense.
Since you can't seem to even be able to read a simple article, it talks about both lineage as well as history. And the history it discusses is partially based on HFY's oral histories - which goes much further back than your 1850's roadblock you seem to be stuck on.


If any one has evidence to support the claim in this article above, please share them. I am open with it. I never take myself as the truth.

I already mentioned part of HFY technology that supports a shaolin connection, but again you are to stupid to read plain english. As I have offered several times, I am always willing to come meet you so you can see the evidence first hand. All you have to do is accept ;)

But of course, we all know you won't since are not interested in any real facts based on first hand experience. Maybe it's for the best, because I'm not sure I want to meet someone that gets off filming themselves humping bats, balls and walls to their made-up history supporting their chop suey snake/crane animal kung fu style. :eek:

[Hendrik]

You are right!

It is not Benny Meng but Loewenhagen in written!

Benny switch to white crane of fujian proceed from red flag to black flag.

My mistakes! Sorry !



Wrong. You're such a bumbling moron and once again you have no idea what it is your are even talking about. The author of the article is my first sifu, Richard J. Loewenhagen and I know for a fact that he has never excepted this white crane fujian source BS nonsense.
Since you can't seem to even be able to read a simple article, it talks about both lineage as well as history. And the history it discusses is partially based on HFY's oral histories - which goes much further back than your 1850's roadblock you seem to be stuck on.



I already mentioned part of HFY technology that supports a shaolin connection, but again you are to stupid to read plain english. As I have offered several times, I am always willing to come meet you so you can see the evidence first hand. All you have to do is accept ;)

But of course, we all know you won't since are not interested in any real facts based on first hand experience. Maybe it's for the best, because I'm not sure I want to meet someone that gets off filming themselves humping bats, balls and walls to their made-up history supporting their chop suey snake/crane animal kung fu style. :eek:

[Robinhood]

LOL, agreed - try telling this to that clown Hendrik though ;)


WC came from the north, it is just a simplified version of the MA 's that were taught and documented for thousands of years. It is a striped down version of traditional MA that is easier to learn and apply than full systems like Tai Chi.

I don't know who the idiots are that think traditional MA don't have a core that connects the parts, but all complete arts address the core, otherwise you are just like a hollow shell , that when the shell is breached nothing is left except a broken shell, like the death star before it is completed.

Every art has tools, like the alphabet , that you learn to use for defending your self, the tools need to attach to the core for support. You can't plug a tool into a shell and expect the shell to power it, it is only a shell , no power source to the ground for support.

So Henrick's development of the core is essential parts of all arts , except maybe fast food arts that just give you a quick byte. , but eat what you want.

[Robinhood]

This article is a triad stories based view which is very common in tcma,

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=141


The technology DNA and actual Chinese history based tracking research Of 1855 has much more accuratecy then these type of research or ideas. The technology DNA and Chinese history tracking research can answer, who, why, how, where, when. While the triad stories based will not get to the spot but circle around the triad stories and legend .

As in this case, in this article, where is the shao Lin it refer too, when is it happen, what technology DNA from that shao Lin can be traced. The article cannot get to that level to give a precise pin point. Thus, it cannot explain how is the stories from the triad related to siu Lin tau or the core of the WCK. As we relate California wine to napa valley. iPad to apple inc.

And as we know, decade later the author of this articke flip to white crane of fujian away from shao Pin.







Notice. 1855, no zen involve, no monks involve. No mystic. No shao Lin. But extremely political and survival.


Garret Gee didn't even know any wng chun, his father taught another style, he was trying to learn wing chun from the locals, then all the sudden he started claiming he was wing chun , you can't believe anything you read these days.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1218675]In the article,

It says

--------------

Paradigm Shift

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMO we are not ready for a definitive macro history of wing chun and Benny Meng's journey via TKD, Moy Yat, HFY red flag, black flag (or is it the other way around) is interesting- not.

[GlennR]

WC came from the north, it is just a simplified version of the MA 's that were taught and documented for thousands of years. It is a striped down version of traditional MA that is easier to learn and apply than full systems like Tai Chi.

How do you know about the north thing?
If its so "stripped down" why all the mumbo jumbo Hendrik goes on about
Who says its easier to learn thatn the other TCMA'S


I don't know who the idiots are that think traditional MA don't have a core that connects the parts, but all complete arts address the core, otherwise you are just like a hollow shell , that when the shell is breached nothing is left except a broken shell, like the death star before it is completed.

Like the death star before it is completed.......... use the force Luke!
Honestly, how old are you?


Every art has tools, like the alphabet , that you learn to use for defending your self, the tools need to attach to the core for support. You can't plug a tool into a shell and expect the shell to power it, it is only a shell , no power source to the ground for support.

What i find funny is people that use analogies all the time, its basically because they cant explain, in a real world what they are trying to do.
Using your analogy, a cordless drill cant work.......... christ (head slap)



So Henrick's development of the core is essential parts of all arts , except maybe fast food arts that just give you a quick byte. , but eat what you want

Core work is essential, just not Hendriks.

Mate, if i hit harder, have better balance and do what id like to easier than Hendrik..... who's correct?

[JPinAZ]

Garret Gee didn't even know any wng chun, his father taught another style, he was trying to learn wing chun from the locals, then all the sudden he started claiming he was wing chun , you can't believe anything you read these days.

Another clueless idiot speaking about things he knows nothing about - no wonder you have your head up hendrik's a55. While you are correct about what his father taught, you're clueless about everything else.
Try reading once in a while: http://www.hungfakwoon.com/SifuGee.htm

[JPinAZ]

You are right!
It is not Benny Meng but Loewenhagen in written!
Benny switch to white crane of fujian proceed from red flag to black flag.
My mistakes! Sorry !

So then, you really have no point at all and you have no idea what you're talking about what-so-ever. At least you finally admit it..

[desertwingchun2]

Garret Gee didn't even know any wng chun, his father taught another style, he was trying to learn wing chun from the locals, then all the sudden he started claiming he was wing chun , you can't believe anything you read these days.

Touch hands with the man. Then tell me what is what. I want to see that. Better yet, touch hands with one of senior students who don't know WC either. I am now convinced you are a dope also.

[Robinhood]

Touch hands with the man. Then tell me what is what. I want to see that. Better yet, touch hands with one of senior students who don't know WC either. I am now convinced you are a dope also.

I knew a guy over 25 years ago, that was teaching everybody in his class, because they did not know anything, and this guy knew hardly anything himself.

I know other people who actually knew him personally so. :p


I think your smoking dope.

[desertwingchun2]

I knew a guy over 25 years ago, that was teaching everybody in his class, because they did not know anything, and this guy knew hardly anything himself.

I know other people who actually knew him personally so. :p


I think your smoking dope.

Your attempted humor does little to deflect the fact you also know not of which you speak.

So if you don't think Master Gee knows Wing Chun go visit. Its that simple.

I'm sure he will be open to your visit unlike your hero Hendrick who cannot perform any WC skill.

[JPinAZ]

This whole thread is a waste, I'm sorry I even gave these clowns (Hendik & Roberthood) any of my time at all.

I think KentChang summed Hendrik's 'theories' up best here:


I have been fellowing Hendrik's silly posts for sometime. He behave as if he is some kind of wing chun authority. His claim that Yik Kam is the original WC is ridiculous. In 1850 Wong Wa Bo, Leung Yi Tai and Dai Fa Min Kam were senior red boat opera members taugh 3 WC forms SNT, CK and BJ. Yik Kam was merry an unknown junior member at that time and only has 1 long form of omie exercise SLT. The story of Yik Kam 's SLT (little exercise) is full of contradiction. Hendrik's disguising Hong Kong snake and crane WC school which also has three forms as Yik Kam's SLT. That makes no sense at all. Even Bruce Lee having learned some WC from Yip Man was inspired to develop JKD. Hendrik, you should not be so arrogant to call Yik Kam mixture of omie, white crane as the original WC. Your ridiculous claims make no sense and have absolutely no historical substantiation. As the matter of fact, Yik Kam's SLT is much like a version of 1850's JKD instead of the original WC.

So long

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik, how does Pao Fai Lien wing chun fit in with your history research?


Pao Fa lien technologically is following the 1850 siu Lin tau core and snake body crance limbs practice . With its own variation.

So, IMHO, PFL wc is also a product of 1855 fut Shan WCK belong to a segment of WCK such as snake crane wc which also involve the triad uprising activity.

CONCEPTS AND PRINCIPLES
Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun uses the tao(spit), tun(swallow), fao(rise), and chum(sink) body structure. The art is embodied in the eight principles of tui(push), mo(touch), tong(press), dong(swing), chi(stick), na(adhere), lien(continue), and jui(follow). The first 4 deal with contacting and redirecting the opponents limb and body. The last 4 cover the establishment and maintenance of such contact.

Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun Kuen (Paohua Lian Yongchunquan) was supposedly named by Chu Chong and his student, Mok Poi On, in honor of Lao Dat Sang (whose nickname was Pao Fa Lien), when he resumed his teaching in Macao and wanted to distinguish his methods from those of other teachers who had become prominent. In an alternate account, the system was based down by Lee Wing who combined Wing Chun Kuen with Hung Kuen and Tai Gik Kuen (taijiquan).

looks like they have some of the 12 key words from Yuen Kay San wc

[Hendrik]

Great summary!



CONCEPTS AND PRINCIPLES
Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun uses the tao(spit), tun(swallow), fao(rise), and chum(sink) body structure. The art is embodied in the eight principles of tui(push), mo(touch), tong(press), dong(swing), chi(stick), na(adhere), lien(continue), and jui(follow). The first 4 deal with contacting and redirecting the opponents limb and body. The last 4 cover the establishment and maintenance of such contact.

Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun Kuen (Paohua Lian Yongchunquan) was supposedly named by Chu Chong and his student, Mok Poi On, in honor of Lao Dat Sang (whose nickname was Pao Fa Lien), when he resumed his teaching in Macao and wanted to distinguish his methods from those of other teachers who had become prominent. In an alternate account, the system was based down by Lee Wing who combined Wing Chun Kuen with Hung Kuen and Tai Gik Kuen (taijiquan).

looks like they have some of the 12 key words from Yuen Kay San wc

[Ali. R]

Great summary!

Commonly known information in which I’ve read back some time ago, via WingChunPedia.org & Wikipedia, and almost the exact same writing and word arrangement.

Thanks for the research.


Ali

[Robinhood]

Your attempted humor does little to deflect the fact you also know not of which you speak.

So if you don't think Master Gee knows Wing Chun go visit. Its that simple.

I'm sure he will be open to your visit unlike your hero Hendrick who cannot perform any WC skill.

I didn't say he didn't know something, I was referring to the article, he just learned bits and pieces here and there in S.F., not inheriting some secret wc lineage.

Some people are just so gullible .

No , humor just facts.