Chasing the ghost of Yik Kam's SLT

[kentchang]

Hendrik has posted thousands of his posts and videos on internet, repeating the same thing over and over again about how Yik Kam's SLT and WC originated from the Omie and White Crane backgrounds. But there is one problem here, WC was already existed before Yik Kam's personal invention the Omie/White Crane SLT (little exercise from Omie). Wong Wa Bo and others were already teaching WC to the public while Yik Kam was still a student learning somewhere (unknown places, unknown teachers, later came up with his own little exercise SLT).
Hendrik's claim that Yik Kam is the originator of WC is totally ridiculous.


In 1850, after Yik Kam learned something from these two schools, Yik Kam mixed the arts of Omie and White Crane. How long did he spend time to master these two arts of Omie 12 palms exercise and White Crane boxing? What circumstances motivated Yik Kam to invent his one long form SLT (little exercise)?


If Hendrik could provide some answers for these questions, that may help him not to waste any more time chasing the ghost of Yik Kam's SLT.

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik has posted thousands of his posts and videos on internet, repeating the same thing over and over again about how Yik Kam's SLT and WC originated from the Omie and White Crane backgrounds. But there is one problem here, WC was already existed before Yik Kam's personal invention the Omie/White Crane SLT (little exercise from Omie). Wong Wa Bo and others were already teaching WC to the public while Yik Kam was still a student learning somewhere (unknown places, unknown teachers, later came up with his own little exercise SLT).
Hendrik's claim that Yik Kam is the originator of WC is totally ridiculous.


In 1850, after Yik Kam learned something from these two schools, Yik Kam mixed the arts of Omie and White Crane. How long did he spend time to master these two arts of Omie 12 palms exercise and White Crane boxing? What circumstances motivated Yik Kam to invent his one long form SLT (little exercise)?


If Hendrik could provide some answers for these questions, that may help him not to waste any more time chasing the ghost of Yik Kam's SLT.

You really should learn how to read! lol

1. Hendrik never claimed that Yik Kam is the originator of WC

2. Hendrik said all wing chun comes from Omei snake and Fujian crane fusion, not just Yik Kam's linage. It was Miu Shun who created SLT by fusing omei snake with Fujian crane. this is well known amoung several others linages independant from Yik Kam's such as in Yuen Kay San wc, Snake Crane WC and others.

3. Hendriks videos do not contain all the same information if you understand what he is talking about, but ofcoarse there are some overlap.

4. Yik Kam is the same generation as Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yi Tai, not there junior, they all learnt during the same time period

5. Hendrik never claimed that Yik Kam invented the one long SLT form, he does say however that wing chun before the 1850's had one long SLT form which was later broken up into three sections as we know them today SLT CK BJ in Fushan during war times to create fighters in a shorter time.

[Hendrik]

Correct.

Even wwb and Leung jan lineage as our late friend in this forum Dany the horse rider who was from Leung jan lineage confirm to me. They have one long set in addition to the later re organize three sets.



Furthermore,

No matter it is the long set or the three sets, the siu Lin tau or siu nim tau of 1850 era always started with a snake reeling section and crane Withstand section or the sambai fut section. That is the signature of WCK at that era. Today , one can still see these two section in yks and many others red boat wck lineages.

Gm Ipman evolve away the snake section in his snt but keep it in the bil jee set. That is Ipman WCK signature.




Now, take a look at anyone who claim to have older WCK , if they are Pre 1850 they must only do the one single long set. Because the three sets come only after 1855 burning of fine jade association. They can't be doing three sets if they are real.





Any one claim to be red boat era or Pre red boat 1850 era wck lineage, whether of it is three sets or one set system, they Must have the snake reel and crane withstand section.
Ie: This is applied to pofalin WCK, thus, we know pfl WCK is a 1850 WCK lineage.




Now, if you saw those who claim to be Pre 1850, doing three sets, and has no snake reel section in thier siu nim Tau. You know right away, that is a Ipman WCK derive modern day creation with a made up story of Pre 1850.


We know lots of signatures today. So, one better to be honest on what they are doing.



The three sets is not the creation of shao Lin, but the creation after the burning of fine jade association, 1855, for the purpose of training revenges toward the fine jade traitors who is praticing CLF. WCK and CLF are ally , WCK goes after the fine jade traitors in fut Shan area.

Yik kam doesnt adapt to the three sets system because he and other red boat old timer were following lee man mau group in kwang Xi .


Thus, the one set is the red boat version practice by leung lan kwai, wwb , yik kam....etc,
the three sets is fut Shan version coming later after 1855.



From the one set we know the mother art are
white crane from fujian which provide the center line concept, the emei 12 zhuang internal system which provide the snake body.






You really should learn how to read! lol

1. Hendrik never claimed that Yik Kam is the originator of WC

2. Hendrik said all wing chun comes from Omei snake and Fujian crane fusion, not just Yik Kam's linage. It was Miu Shun who created SLT by fusing omei snake with Fujian crane. this is well known amoung several others linages independant from Yik Kam's such as in Yuen Kay San wc, Snake Crane WC and others.

3. Hendriks videos do not contain all the same information if you understand what he is talking about, but ofcoarse there are some overlap.

4. Yik Kam is the same generation as Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yi Tai, not there junior, they all learnt during the same time period

5. Hendrik never claimed that Yik Kam invented the one long SLT form, he does say however that wing chun before the 1850's had one long SLT form which was later broken up into three sections as we know them today SLT CK BJ in Fushan during war times to create fighters in a shorter time.

[kentchang]

kung fu fighter
Observation and keeping what you know to yourself will be what's required if you want to get ahead.


Originally posted by Hendrik
the fut Shan group which lead by Leung LAN Kwai or nick name Ng mui, reorganize the WCK one set system into a three sets system ---

If Leung Lan Kwai were Ng Mui, then no doubt Hendrik would be Yim Wing Chun.

[kentchang]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Gm Ipman evolve away the snake section in his snt but keep it in the bil jee set. That is Ipman WCK signature.

Wow! that's something else...now you made up some silly story about Ip Man.

[Hendrik]

Get your history straight.


Here is the Chinese history of the hung mung or triad 1850 era,


It says, the triad use the burning of shao lin story.
Also Ng Mui is Leung LAN Kwai nick name.

It says lee man mau the red boat actor and the hung army uprising,

Btw, yik kam is also a red boat opera actor and the supporter of lee man mau . Lee fighting in Kwan Xi, yik kam doesn't adapt the three set because he is not the fut Shan group. Yik kam keep the one set.


Now, these are real people who can be trace from different source and signatures.



It is ghost? Nope.




兩廣的洪門組織於太平天國起義後（1851年），互相聯絡結盟、組織成三合會，曾於瓊花會館的紅船中會議， 發動兩廣（特別在大城市，如廣州及佛山）的大武術團體中成立堂口，訓練洪兵。
得悉太平天國定都金陵後，1854年，三合會李文茂及洪兵起義，引起清廷火燒瓊花會館及所有紅船。之後三合 會則傳出火燒（南）少林寺的傳說、說當時的不同門派（南拳）都源出福建少林寺之少林五老，目的是將原來不團 結的武術團體組織一起，共同反清。


兩廣三合會會薄記錄：“其時少林寺，武風甚盛，招清廷忌，派兵圍捕，攻而不下。適有新科狀元陳文維者，邀寵 獻議，設法勾通寺僧馬甯兒等，四處縱火，裏應外合，少林寺被毀，僧徒四散。


於是五枚師太(梁蘭桂)

與至善禪師(洪拳領袖)、白眉禪師(東江拳領袖)、馮道德(馮雲山－太平天國聯絡人)、苗顯(廣州花拳首領 )等五人亦分途出走。










kung fu fighter
Observation and keeping what you know to yourself will be what's required if you want to get ahead.



If Leung Lan Kwai were Ng Mui, then no doubt Hendrik would be Yim Wing Chun.

[Hendrik]

The signature is writting in the Ipman set.

Anyone can go to the YouTube and pull up all ipman lineages siu nim tau and verify.

Now, did your siu nim tau has the same signature as Ipman lineage?

Why don't you show us your siu nim tau and see if it is Pre 1850 one set, 1855 three sets, or Ipman lineage derive set.



Wow! that's something else...now you made up some silly story about Ip Man.

[kentchang]

Copying and pasting bits and pieces of others unverified material does not justify your claim to be a WC researcher.

[YouKnowWho]

Why don't you show us your siu nim tau and see if it is Pre 1850 one set, 1855 three sets, or Ipman lineage derive set.

Why is this important? As long as your fist can knock your opponent down, who cares which set that you are training? If your fist can't knock your opponent down, it won't do you any good if George W Bush taught your that set in person.

[Hendrik]

Facts are facts, copy and pasting are just tools.


Yik kam slt is 1850 version by any standard of red boat WCK lineages,

Why don't you show us your siu nim tau,
And let everyone here see which version is yours? Let the signature tell the story to all wcners.

Can you do that? I am sure lots of people here waiting to see how authentic is your WCK lineage.




Copying and pasting bits and pieces of others unverified material does not justify your claim to be a WC researcher.

[kentchang]

Let the signature tell the story to all wcners.

With over thousands of your posts, you still could not explain about your own story and what's your point by talking about others? You should invest energy in resolving your situation and just go to join the local YMCA. I'm sure you will find the signature there!

[kentchang]

This is WCK history and my ancestor are under attack unreasonablely. Could you step aside on none of your business?

Yik Kam was very happy about his art and Ip man was also very happy with his WCK and not untill you came to speak for them. Your comments are silly and not funny!

[Vajramusti]

iu jee. He is se
Yik Kam was very happy about his art and Ip man was also very happy with his WCK and not untill you came to speak for them. Your comments are silly and not funny!
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Kung Fu fighter is correct on kent chang not reading Hendrik's post correctly on yik kam.

I have only a small interest in yik kam. Definitely, Hendrik's agenda is to make yik kam well known.
No problem but:Do a book rather than repeating on a chat forum where attentions and communications are fragmented.

KG and HS just repeat their positions repeatedly and often inarticulately...and counter-productively
IMO.

Hendrik does not understand good Ip Man wing chun concepts- he is depending much on his visual interpretation and cherry picking of youtube videos regarding Ip Man's use of energies.
There is coiling energy in all Ip Man forms not just in barching for visual not conceptual cues in Ip Man's wing chun.There are various quite different versions of wing chun in
different lines.

BTW- as far as intentions-I try to engage in plain chatting-- I don't sell or recruit. But I do critique when something is patently false and I do learn without accepting things at face value.

Quite a few good people do not post on this forum anymore and many never have. Not just in the wing chun forum which is a busy one.


Onward through the mud. Clarity is around the corner in the mad hatter's party.

[Hendrik]

Joy,

I focus on history and technology.

My agenda is to present what happen in red boat.
I am a yik kam decendent not promoting yik kam.
Even the WCK article in magazine I do it with different WCK lineages.
In my utube, I openly say yik kam lineage can learn from other wck lineages.

As for what Ipman version or yik kam version of WCK and signature, facts are louder then words. wcners will know. Paper cannot cover fire. Either one is honest and accept it is as what it is or one can cover up ones eyes to make believe.


Ipman siu Niem tau does take a way the snake section. That is Ipman signature , not happen in chan wah siu Lin set, and not happen in yks or other WCK lineages slt set.
It is a fact, one can see the Ipman signature in all Ipman lineage siu nim Tau which perform by himself and all of his student including twc.

There is nothing good or bad, but it is a signature of snt by Ipman.





For many times now, I notice you have taken a very defensive position To defend your lineage and thus assume my agenda as you think. In fact, it shows what you try to protect when the curtain of WCK is puller. IMHO.


I say things and no shy to openly tell my agenda. In this case, my agenda is to pull the curtain and let the wcners see what is there. I am not the truth, and could be wrong, but I don't have promoting yik kam agenda. I don't have school, I don't teach, I give out technology for free. I don't even ask those who learn yik kam things from me has to convert to yik kam. But only request given credit to where the credit from as the Chinese says , drinking the water and remember where the water is from.




Kentchang starts this thread to attack myself, there is no reason I need to shut up to take it. Read the title of the threat on what is kent hang intention.

Ipman snt signature is a fact, we like it or not it is a fact.



What is kentchang siu nim Tau like?
Is it a Pre 1850 or a Ipman derive, the truth is cast in stone. Let the facts speak for itself. Does kent hang even dare to present the siu nim Tau set of his lineage and put that under the sun. The answer is he didn't dare, otherwise we all here will see the utube link he give us.


I leave this thread now, and my final words are facts is louder then words. Discredit me doesn't make facts go away.









iu jee. He is se
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Kung Fu fighter is correct on kent chang not reading Hendrik's post correctly on yik kam.

I have only a small interest in yik kam. Definitely, Hendrik's agenda is to make yik kam well known.
No problem but:Do a book rather than repeating on a chat forum where attentions and communications are fragmented.

KG and HS just repeat their positions repeatedly and often inarticulately...and counter-productively
IMO.

Hendrik does not understand good Ip Man wing chun concepts- he is depending much on his visual interpretation and cherry picking of youtube videos regarding Ip Man's use of energies.

There is coiling energy in all Ip Man forms not just in barching for visual not conceptual cues in Ip Man's wing chun.There are various quite different versions of wing chun in
different lines.

BTW- as far as intentions-I try to engage in plain chatting-- I don't sell or recruit. But I do critique when something is patently false and I do learn without accepting things at face value.

Quite a few good people do not post on this forum anymore and many never have. Not just in the wing chun forum which is a busy one.


Onward through the mud. Clarity is around the corner in the mad hatter's party.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1218894]Joy,



Ipman siu Niem tau does take a way the snake section. That is Ipman signature , not happen in chan wah siu Lin set, and not happen in yks or other WCK lineages slt set.
It is a fact, one can see the Ipman signature in all Ipman lineage siu nim Tau which perform by himself and all of his student including twc.

There is nothing good or bad, but it is a signature of snt by Ipman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good, bad? No just incorrect and incomplete knowledge of Ip Man's wing chun. You already assume that waving the hands in certain ways is the essence of the snake in action.
That is a form of naive realism- a primitive form of induction and analysis.

[stonecrusher69]

kung fu fighter
Observation and keeping what you know to yourself will be what's required if you want to get ahead.



If Leung Lan Kwai were Ng Mui, then no doubt Hendrik would be Yim Wing Chun.


He seems to be far way ahead then you..Maybe you should take your own advice..

[Wayfaring]

You know this is going to sound completely out of character for me, but I don't have a problem with "chasing the ghost of Yik Kam's SLT" or Hendrik doing that.

If Yik Kam's fundamentals involve developing a "snake" body and the coiling and striking energy we all know in WCK(of course people will debate that - but Hawkins "snake body" sure has familiar energy generation), that has to be better than an army of thousands of wooden-legged soldiers getting bulldozed by simplistic athletic forward energy.

Yik Kam's take on the art. Yik Kam's perspective on the art and fundamentals of it. Preserve Yik Kam's teachings, or "chase his ghost". I mean I guess you could criticize the overall Eastern philosophy of preserving the connection with your ancestors as "chasing a ghost". And almost everyone is chasing Ip Man's ghost it seems.

Is Yik Kam's truth a "universal" truth? Hendrik pushes for it to be so. I don't hold it universal everywhere and it's not my lineage. So I'd say no.

But it IS a lineage, and I don't feel the right to say it doesn't exist, shouldn't exist.

[Hendrik]

Joy,

I don't assume, I let all the facts speak for themself.





Take a look at Ipman himself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy3_nSXpBLw

There is no snake reel section , the section before the one tan three fok section or Sam bai fut section.
That is Ipman siu nim tau signature.

Take a look at Bruce lee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVA9GcvcsS8


I invite you to take a look at every Ipman student including twc snt, all has this signature of no snake section in snt.






Compare with the other WCK lineages siu nim tau which has a snake section before the Sam bai fur section

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6Ap3Hgfbqs


Even the pfl WCK which has lots of variation divert from main stream fut Shan WCK has the snake section before the one tan three Fook section in thier siu nim tau.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8ErY0gfLgY



Here is yks siu nim tau

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDpx5juWHX0


You family

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2lqE2c7XcA



Here, get the chan wah WCK version of as in sifu Sergio channel and see for yourself, the snake reel section is there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo





See for yourself, facts are facts.
Yesterday, some one ask me on pfl WCK, you see, pfl snt even though perform with variation it still follow the snake reel crane withstand two core section of red boat era WCK. Thus, they are WCK , since they do three sets, that indicate they are fut Shan WCK evolve.

So red boat WCK decendents across lineages has that snake reel section in additions to the Sam bai fit or crane withstand section.





With today's communication, lots of things are reveal infront of ones eyes.




Also, those who are interested in Pre 1850 WCK,

Ask vTm researchers, how come thier red flag, black flag siu nim tau all doesn't have the snake reel section? Why they are perform with Ipman no snake reel section but huen sau Ipman signature ?

Are you sure that is Pre 1850? Or is it 2000 creation where it is an evolution from Ipman sets?











[QUOTE=Hendrik;1218894]Joy,



Ipman siu Niem tau does take a way the snake section. That is Ipman signature , not happen in chan wah siu Lin set, and not happen in yks or other WCK lineages slt set.
It is a fact, one can see the Ipman signature in all Ipman lineage siu nim Tau which perform by himself and all of his student including twc.

There is nothing good or bad, but it is a signature of snt by Ipman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good, bad? No just incorrect and incomplete knowledge of Ip Man's wing chun. You already assume that waving the hands in certain ways is the essence of the snake in action.
That is a form of naive realism- a primitive form of induction and analysis.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1218931]Joy,

I don't assume, I let all the facts speak for themself.





Take a look at Ipman himself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy3_nSXpBLw

There is no snake reel section , the section before the one tan three fok section or Sam bai fut section.
That is Ipman siu nim tau signature.

Take a look at Bruce lee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVA9GcvcsS8


I invite you to take a look at every Ipman student including twc snt, all has this signature of no snake section in snt.






Compare with the other WCK lineages siu nim tau which has a snake section before the Sam bai fur section

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6Ap3Hgfbqs


---------------------------------------
Hi Hendrik- we are ships passing at sea. Of course "facts are facts" is tautologically true. But operationally opinions including yous are not ipso facto facts.

Snake coiling energy and visibly (via armchair video viewing) moving arms up/down and sideways is not the only possibility in snake energy.

And referring to Bruce Lee's video is irrelevant.

You are on your own track.