PDA

View Full Version : Knives on a plane



GeneChing
03-15-2013, 09:35 AM
TSA chief defends letting knives back on planes (http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2013/03/14/tsa-knives/1987749/)
Bart Jansen7:30a.m. EDT March 15, 2013
The head of the air marshals union says it's "insane" to let passengers carry knives on planes, but the TSA chief says it needs to focus on other, more

WASHINGTON — Transportation Security Administration chief John Pistole defended his decision to let passengers carry small knives back on board flights Thursday, saying "these are not things that terrorists are continuing to use."

Instead, he told House members on Capitol Hill that airport security officers should be concentrating on non-metal explosives that have the capability to blow a hole in a plane.

Pistole last week announced that passengers could carry on small penknives and some sporting equipment such as two golf clubs, hockey sticks and small, souvenir baseball bats for the first time since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Rep. Mike Rogers, R-Ala., commended him for the move. "I think it's common sense what you've done," Rogers said.

Not every congressman on the House Homeland Security subcommittee agreed. Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., held up a golf club and a hockey stick, asking whether they were dangerous.

"I think it could cause serious harm," Thompson said of the hockey stick.

Many flight attendants, pilots and even air marshals, who fly on commercial planes undercover, have come out against letting the items on board.

George Taylor, president for the federal air marshal service within the Federal Law Enforcement Office Association, said terrorists could figure out how to defeat reinforced ****pit doors with weapons similar to the box-cutters used on Sept. 11, 2001.

"It's just absolutely insane," said Taylor, a 36-year law enforcement officer who has been an air marshal since 9/11. "I don't put my faith in that reinforced door. If it's made by man, it can be broken by man."

"They're very upset," Taylor added, about fellow air marshals. "This is not the time to implement this policy."

Taylor spoke at a news conference outside the Capitol where flight attendants also sharply criticized the policy change. There, Rep. Ed Markey, D-Mass., threatened a House vote on his legislation to prohibit knives on planes if the TSA doesn't reverse course.

"The TSA policy makes no sense," said Markey, who held up a knife that is allowed with a longer blade than a box-cutter. "It is a dangerous policy."

At the hearing, Pistole showed lawmakers a video of the destructive force of the explosive found on a passenger in December 2009 that destroyed a sheet of plywood between two sawhorses.

"This is what I believe the TSA should be focused on," Pistole said. "It really comes down to how can we best utilize our resources."

He also showed lawmakers a display of small knives with other items that have been allowed since 2005, including scissors with blades less than 4 inches long, knitting needles and screwdrivers less than 7 inches long. He said TSA is still more restrictive than knives allowed in federal buildings.

"Given the overall intelligence, these are not things that terrorists are continuing to use," Pistole said of small knives.

Pistole acknowledged he could have consulted with flight attendants and pilots better before announcing the change in policy. But he said he was confident in his decision. "I think the decision is solid," he said.

SLIDESHOW: : TSA guidelines for pocketknives, sporting equipment

Like in Congress, reaction elsewhere has been mixed to the change. Some security experts and frequent fliers praise reducing prohibited items that distract checkpoint officers from more dangerous ones. But some security analysts have said travelers have grown accustomed to leaving knives out of their carry-on bags, and the policy change isn't necessary.

The Coalition of Flight Attendant Unions, which represents 90,000 workers, has been strongly opposed and set up a White House petition with a link to noknivesonplanes.com.

"Any way you slice it, a knife like this is a weapon, and it doesn't belong on an airplane," said Laura Glading, president of the Association of Professional Flight Attendants, representing 16,000 workers at American Airlines. "His ridiculous position remains unchanged."

Ever get something confiscated by TSA? I have. But as to the security risk, I just have two words - box cutters.

Jimbo
03-15-2013, 12:00 PM
Well, right now, I have something on me that would be CONSIDERED a weapon and confiscated by TSA if I tried to get through security with it (I wouldn't). But I don't carry it as a weapon, nor was it specifically desined as such, but as a cutting tool. It's a Spyderco folder with a 3" locking blade.

I also carry a mini-Swiss Army Knife, that has a nail file, toothpick, tweezers, scissors, tiny blade, etc. This little knife would pass muster with the TSA after April 25, and I don't see how it could be considered a weapon by anyone. When I was a kid, almost every man and boy I knew carried some type of pocketknife, scout knife, etc., and nobody ever even thought of pulling one during a fight. Sometime in the '80s or '90s, I think people in general became wussified concerning little pocketknives, and view every little thing as a weapon, even a little pen knife.

Up through 1998, I used to air travel with a standard-sized Swiss Army knife everywhere I went, and nobody ever gave it a second glance going through security. Now, even if carry on planes is reinstated, that same SAK would be too long to make it through.

GeneChing
03-15-2013, 12:37 PM
I'm in the same boat actually. I have a Leatherman mini on my keychain (I had a similar key chain knife confiscated by TSA once because I just plain forgot I was carrying it). I also have a Leatherman Skeletool, which is a bizarre knife, but it was a gift I received for being a best man at a martial brother's wedding, so I carry it for sentimental reasons, and for box cutting and envelope opening.

Leathermans are the new SAK. :p

Jimbo
03-15-2013, 12:54 PM
Leathermans are the new SAK. :p

I have a Leatherman Micra, but it's hardly carried or used. The little tools are more bothersome to access for me than a simple SAK. A multi-tool that I do sometimes carry and sees a fair amount of use is a Victorinox Swisstool Spirit. It's good-sized but not at all bulky when carried in its sheath, is really solid, and is made by the same maker as my SAKs. :)

Syn7
03-15-2013, 01:19 PM
I don't mind the change. I mean, you can do a LOT of damage with a bic pen. Especially if you like come up behind and take a hostage. As long as they don't have anything that can get them into the cockpit, I'm not really worried about it. Security is more than just disarming people. Freedom is taking certain risks. Personally, I'm willing to risk it.

GeneChing
03-15-2013, 01:22 PM
But I converted to Leathermans sometime in the mid 80s. I like the pliers. And I always used to lose the SAK toothpicks. :o

That being said, the Skeletool (http://www.leatherman.com/product/Skeletool_CX) is a tad silly design-wise. Leatherman tried to reconcile a one-handed blade opener and be stylish at the same time. I wouldn't carry it if not for the sentimental reasons. My martial bro and I used to compete against each other with each other in collecting skulls (seriously) and he knows my love of the Leatherman brand, so it was the perfect Best Man's gift (I indirectly introduced him to his present wife and was his Best Man for his first marriage too). I will say the Skeletool is a good conversation starter because it looks cool (and I got this story behind it). It would make for a lousy self-defense knife.


you can do a LOT of damage with a bic pen. You can do a lot of damage with your thumb too. ;)

Jimbo
03-15-2013, 01:31 PM
Actually, my Swisstool Spirit would make a pretty decent self-defense weapon if held in the closed position and hitting with the ends, kind of like a thick Kubotan, or even used as a fist load, in a similar way that some people used a roll of quarters to reinforce their punches.

As far as pliers go, I find the Swisstool Spirit's pliers more solid-feeling than the Leatherman's pliers I've handled. But it's all good. Once you find uses for these things, you feel a bit lost when you can't have one on you.

BTW, you can do serious permanent damage with virtually anything. Even if they switched to using plastic forks/spoons for inflight meals, those could also be used. Shoes, neckties, etc. And as already mentioned, your own hands. In fact, these things would be more dangerous than a tiny pen knife.

What nobody ever mentions is there have been instances of lives being saved by the use of little pocketknives. Several years ago in a flight over India, one passenger had a serious medical issue (I forget what issue), but a passenger who was a doctor went to help, and he needed to cut an airway in the throat. He asked if anyone had a knife, and someone handed him a small SAK. The doctor used it to save the person's life. If not for the presence of the doctor AND the little knife, that person would have died. But no one ever talks about these instances.

Syn7
03-15-2013, 01:40 PM
You can do a lot of damage with your thumb too. ;)

Exactly....!!! This is why I have no issue with pocket knives on planes. Yeah they can do some damage, but so can many other things. Like um, oh I dunno, boxcutters ;)

Any piece of metal can act as a makeshift blade. A toothbrush can be a formidable weapon. It's silly to bad small sharps, they are EVERYWHERE. Like nail clippers? Sucka please.... :p

SoCo KungFu
03-15-2013, 04:49 PM
I heard this story on NPR. This article leaves some things out. They are also if I remember correctly, considering lifting the ban on handguns as well. Which I think would be very stupid. Knives I have no opinion on either way.

That said, the unions for the flight attendants aren't just arguing about terrorists. The argument is that every day there are flights that we don't necessarily hear about where attendants have to deescalate drunk or in some other way unruly and potentially dangerous passengers, sometimes to the point of having to have help from other passengers. In that light, wanting to keep knives off is not an illogical argument from their position. Although, they've had scissors and knitting needles on planes since '06. But not a lot of drunk guys are doing crafts or knitting...

Syn7
03-15-2013, 05:21 PM
I heard this story on NPR. This article leaves some things out. They are also if I remember correctly, considering lifting the ban on handguns as well. Which I think would be very stupid. Knives I have no opinion on either way.

That said, the unions for the flight attendants aren't just arguing about terrorists. The argument is that every day there are flights that we don't necessarily hear about where attendants have to deescalate drunk or in some other way unruly and potentially dangerous passengers, sometimes to the point of having to have help from other passengers. In that light, wanting to keep knives off is not an illogical argument from their position. Although, they've had scissors and knitting needles on planes since '06. But not a lot of drunk guys are doing crafts or knitting...

Did you see the clip of that drunk guy the passengers duct taped to his seat? Priceless stuff.

You can use almost anything as a weapon. If you were on a plane and you wanted to do harm, you would find a way. Especially if you weren't a loudmouth about it. What's stopping people from just snatching some kid off an aisle seat and making demands??? You don't even really need a weapon, just a strong grip.

Sounds horrible, I know. I'm just sayin'......

There comes a time when passengers just need to buck up and help staff handle drunk people and other non highjacking type scenarios.

Kellen Bassette
03-15-2013, 05:32 PM
Security is more than just disarming people. Freedom is taking certain risks. Personally, I'm willing to risk it.

I second this...

Syn7
03-15-2013, 05:34 PM
I second this...

I'm also willing to step in when somebody who cannot defend themselves is being mistreated.

Jimbo
03-15-2013, 06:03 PM
The title of this thread makes me imagine Samuel L. Jackson's voice saying, "I don't want no motherf'n knives on this motherf'n plane!!"

Except that I'm actually for it, at least small pen knives.

Kellen Bassette
03-15-2013, 06:07 PM
Lol, that's exactly what I was thinking Jimbo...:p

SoCo KungFu
03-15-2013, 08:08 PM
Did you see the clip of that drunk guy the passengers duct taped to his seat? Priceless stuff.

You can use almost anything as a weapon. If you were on a plane and you wanted to do harm, you would find a way. Especially if you weren't a loudmouth about it. What's stopping people from just snatching some kid off an aisle seat and making demands??? You don't even really need a weapon, just a strong grip.

Sounds horrible, I know. I'm just sayin'......

There comes a time when passengers just need to buck up and help staff handle drunk people and other non highjacking type scenarios.

That's the catch. I could make a rather sound argument using the same premises for more strict rules. The rational you presented is more than enough to do so.

If you were a flight attendant, would you want to go into work relying on the expectation that passengers would aid you? You obviously don't expect others to aid you in your day to day life, that's why you present your argument to begin with. Isn't it a bit of a stretch to expect crew to rely on things that we as passengers don't ourselves? That's the basis of their argument.

Lee Chiang Po
03-15-2013, 09:08 PM
Weapons of serious destruction are not allowed in a lot of places. There was a time when I could not carry anything that I did not want confiscated. I will share something with you. Credit cards, or anything resembling a credit card. You can carry them in your wallet or a coat pocket with few questions if any asked. They make knife sharpeners that will turn them into a straight razor. Pick a corner and give it a sharp edge on two sides and you can use it like a box opener or a razor. I have 4 or 5 such cards in my wallet and a few more in a vest pocket. Some are of no use except to carry a razor sharp edge.
Of course since I have posted this, tomorrow they will be looking at credit cards at boarding. But then I do not fly.