PDA

View Full Version : The benefits from internal arts come from...



IronFist
03-17-2013, 08:05 PM
Poll coming. You may choose all the answers that are applicable.

Let me explain these choices. So if you think the benefit from internal martial arts comes from specific movements combined with specific breathing techniques, then you would choose options 1 and 2.

If you think the benefit from internal martial arts comes from the thought process combined with general movements that don't have to be exact, you would choose options 3 and 4.

I've heard some people say that internal martial arts stuff has to be exact or it may be ineffective or even harmful. Sometimes when they say this they are referring to the movement, sometimes to the breathing, and sometimes to both. I've also heard people say it doesn't matter, you can't really do it wrong, so I'm curious what this forum thinks.

bawang
03-17-2013, 09:11 PM
r u talking about qi meditation

Robinhood
03-17-2013, 09:24 PM
You need a column for none of the above choices.

Scott R. Brown
03-18-2013, 06:39 AM
Also, how are you defining "benefit"?

1) Self-Defense
2) Competive Combat
3) Health
4) Developing Chi inorder to perform magic?
5) etc.

David Jamieson
03-18-2013, 07:47 AM
Also, how are you defining "benefit"?

1) Self-Defense
2) Competive Combat
3) Health
4) Developing Chi inorder to perform magic?
5) etc.

To be fair, he doesn't know because he doesn't likely study internal martial arts and judging by his poll, doesn't have much of a grasp on what they are about.

Ironfist, you probably would have been better off asking the question instead of making a poll and you would have benefited by asking internal practitioners what they felt the benefits of practicing their arts are.

As opposed to trying to lead the answers from a place of ignorance.

Empty_Cup
03-18-2013, 08:24 AM
To be fair, he doesn't know because he doesn't likely study internal martial arts and judging by his poll, doesn't have much of a grasp on what they are about.

Ironfist, you probably would have been better off asking the question instead of making a poll and you would have benefited by asking internal practitioners what they felt the benefits of practicing their arts are.

As opposed to trying to lead the answers from a place of ignorance.

I agree with this but likely the data will come back inconclusive. This seems like a good enough way to get the discussion started.

IronFist
03-19-2013, 07:53 AM
Also, how are you defining "benefit"?

1) Self-Defense
2) Competive Combat
3) Health
4) Developing Chi inorder to perform magic?
5) etc.

The reason they practice internal arts.

IronFist
03-19-2013, 08:06 AM
To be fair, he doesn't know because he doesn't likely study internal martial arts and judging by his poll, doesn't have much of a grasp on what they are about.

Ironfist, you probably would have been better off asking the question instead of making a poll and you would have benefited by asking internal practitioners what they felt the benefits of practicing their arts are.

As opposed to trying to lead the answers from a place of ignorance.

If you disagree with all my poll choices you can post your own answers instead.

I'm not sure what's wrong with my poll choices, though, and I thought I explained them in the first post. You've got movement, breathing, and intent. You can pick the one(s) that are responsible for the changes that come from practicing internal arts that would not come if internal arts were not practiced.

If internal arts are just exercise whose benefits come from the fact that you are doing something (vs. doing nothing), then choose general movements.

If the benefits of internal arts come from specific movements that require being done in a specific way such that it is possible to do them incorrectly and get either no benefit or actually receive harm to yourself, then choose specific movement. An example of this would be "the exercise calls for extending your arm outward for this movement, but if instead you extend your arm upward, you will receive no benefit and/or detriment.

If it's just that internal arts encourage deep breathing which is healthy, then choose general breathing.

If the benefits from internal arts come from specific breathing techniques that require being done in a specific way such that it is possible to do them incorrectly and get either no benefit or actually receive harm to yourself, then choose specific breathing. An example of this would be "this part calls for exhaling 50% of the air in your lungs, but if you accidentally exhale 25% or 75% you will receive no benefit and/or detriment."

Sometimes the breathing and physical movements are supposed to be done together. In this case you can choose both poll options. Some people say these need to be done in a specific way, an example would be "this movement requires exhaling as you extend your arms outward, parallel to the ground. If instead you extend them upward, or if you inhale as you extend your arms rather than exhaling, you will receive no benefit and/or detriment."

If the mental component (such as intent, visualization, etc.) is important, then choose that option. If it is not important, then do not choose that option.

Half the internal stuff I've seen suggests that doing internal arts wrong can range from doing nothing to actually being bad for you. Is that because of the movements, the breathing, or the stuff that goes on in your head?

There are no other components besides movement, breath, and intent.

Therefore my poll is complete and accurate, but you are still welcome to add your own.

What else is there? Facing the right direction? Doing it at exactly the same time every day? I've heard those, too.

Robinhood
03-19-2013, 11:19 AM
If you disagree with all my poll choices you can post your own answers instead.

I'm not sure what's wrong with my poll choices, though, and I thought I explained them in the first post. You've got movement, breathing, and intent. You can pick the one(s) that are responsible for the changes that come from practicing internal arts that would not come if internal arts were not practiced.

If internal arts are just exercise whose benefits come from the fact that you are doing something (vs. doing nothing), then choose general movements.

If the benefits of internal arts come from specific movements that require being done in a specific way such that it is possible to do them incorrectly and get either no benefit or actually receive harm to yourself, then choose specific movement. An example of this would be "the exercise calls for extending your arm outward for this movement, but if instead you extend your arm upward, you will receive no benefit and/or detriment.

If it's just that internal arts encourage deep breathing which is healthy, then choose general breathing.

If the benefits from internal arts come from specific breathing techniques that require being done in a specific way such that it is possible to do them incorrectly and get either no benefit or actually receive harm to yourself, then choose specific breathing. An example of this would be "this part calls for exhaling 50% of the air in your lungs, but if you accidentally exhale 25% or 75% you will receive no benefit and/or detriment."

Sometimes the breathing and physical movements are supposed to be done together. In this case you can choose both poll options. Some people say these need to be done in a specific way, an example would be "this movement requires exhaling as you extend your arms outward, parallel to the ground. If instead you extend them upward, or if you inhale as you extend your arms rather than exhaling, you will receive no benefit and/or detriment."

If the mental component (such as intent, visualization, etc.) is important, then choose that option. If it is not important, then do not choose that option.

Half the internal stuff I've seen suggests that doing internal arts wrong can range from doing nothing to actually being bad for you. Is that because of the movements, the breathing, or the stuff that goes on in your head?

There are no other components besides movement, breath, and intent.

Therefore my poll is complete and accurate, but you are still welcome to add your own.

What else is there? Facing the right direction? Doing it at exactly the same time every day? I've heard those, too.


Maybe if you read a book on the subject, you might have a little better perspective on what it takes .

Lots of good books out there on "chi"., which might be relevant.

IronFist
03-19-2013, 10:16 PM
as far as harming urself - well, that's possible, e.g. - doing sustained valsalva's while bending forward,

I understand how valsavlas can be dangerous in certain situations. I wasn't aware that the valsalva maneuver was done in internal arts, though. I've seen some tensing and momentary breath holding followed immediately by a tensed "tssss" but never heard of an actual sustained valsalva performed in the internal arts.


being "macho" about ur training,

Agreed with that one, too.


tc.; u can also get carried away abit w the visualization stuff; and many of these movements jazz up sympathetics or engage parasympathetics, so if u over do it u can get various autonomic effects, like vaso-vagal response, which u don't really want...

Can you please elaborate on that a bit?

IronFist
03-19-2013, 10:20 PM
Maybe if you read a book on the subject, you might have a little better perspective on what it takes .

Lots of good books out there on "chi"., which might be relevant.

Not sure if your post is serious or not. I've read plenty of books on internal martial arts and "chi."

Your initial comment was for "none of the above choices."

What about my choices is wrong? Are you saying the benefit of internal arts has nothing to do with the movement or breathing?

Robinhood
03-20-2013, 12:47 PM
Not sure if your post is serious or not. I've read plenty of books on internal martial arts and "chi."

Your initial comment was for "none of the above choices."

What about my choices is wrong? Are you saying the benefit of internal arts has nothing to do with the movement or breathing?

Internal is not the benefit of doing one thing right, it is a state that is developed from a certain training method.

If we looked at growing a tree, could we say just add the sun a tree will appear , or just have water and a tree will appear ....etc .

The tree starts from a seed, needs soil, water, then sun, and with the proper amounts of each the tree will keep growing, internal is same kind of process , starts and is developed over time with a balance of different things.

CicadaL9H
03-20-2013, 01:26 PM
The benifits of internal kung-fu, as far as health and energy, besides some of the categories you listed, come from the "transformation" of Jing to Chi, and Chi to Shen. This is the classic formula. It is not mystical, think of it from a physiological point of veiw (I'm going to put this very simply and bluntly, I know it is multi-faceted and cant really be summed up in a paragraph): Semen (jing) is preserved in the body for at least a hundred days ("the Foundation"). It is gradually absorbed into the blood stream and circulated throughout the body along with oxegenated blood ("Chi"). Thats "Jing to Chi". I beleave someone on this forum once made a statement that modern medical science beleaves semen is absorbed into the bloodstream after a hundred days, which struck me as amazing the old masters knew this and used it as a basic rule for the chi king cultivation.
"Chi to Shen": Chi (healthy, oxegenated blood), when toned by chikung, exercise, cardiovascular training, etc, circulates smoothly throughout the entire body, including to the brain. "Shen" can be translated as mind, spirit, etc, but really it refers to conciousness itself, or the meditative mind. So through the preservation of jing (it can be increased through specific training), the training of Chi (Chi-Kung), and the training of Shen through the practices of meditation, taoism, etc, you can reach optimal health and energy levels, as well as a strong healthy brain (mind, "shen").
This is just one way of looking at it, but once you get into the jing travelling up the spinal cord to the brain and back down the front again, it gets harder to explain and also harder for sceptics not to jump all over. But this is in fact considered the source of health and power within the human body.
As far as generating Internal power, it is a technique. It can be learned, its not mystical or imagined.

CicadaL9H
03-20-2013, 02:48 PM
Well I have no idea what most of that means. I learned this directly from my Teacher, the literature he gave me (our schools student hand-books) and my grandteachers book. As I said, this stuff is actually a natuaral process that takes place in the body as long as you dont live recklessly. Of course I'm familiar with some other systems that work with this and I've made a long study of "Internal Alchemy" myself as far as the historical art and literature, but it was purposefully designed to be confusing and hard to understand without a real teacher and many different source material. theres no need to make it all so complicated. It all used to be a code language reserved for the elite, but im tryng to explain that actually, its quite easy to understand and utilize.

CicadaL9H
03-20-2013, 02:56 PM
I left out the last part of the historical formula. It goes' "Jing to Chi, Chi to Shen, Shen to Wu". Wu is Nothingness/Emptyness. Or however you like to translate it. I think of it as the Tao/enlightenment, etc. Then actually there is another step, "to crush the Nothingness" but thats getting trully metaphysical and beyond my basic point

CicadaL9H
03-20-2013, 03:44 PM
Ok, goodbye

mawali
03-21-2013, 02:31 PM
Despite my many years of stuff, I am ignorant as to what 'internal arts' are!
The oft repeated statements that taijiquan, xingyi, etc are 'internal arts'...OK
My questions would be:
1. Are you talking about qigong?
2. Are you talking taijiquan, etc?
3. Are you talking meditation?

The general daoyin sentiment is that there are 2 levels of 'training" One you can change through right conduct, right attitude, adjust posre, breadth, etc and the next which, although cannot be changed, can bring a 'new improved perspective that WILL definitely change the person.:confused:

bawang
03-21-2013, 02:51 PM
has anyone produced a spirit fetus yet? the manual says my genitals would disappear and i would have golden fetus inside me, but nothing happened.

Scott R. Brown
03-21-2013, 05:50 PM
has anyone produced a spirit fetus yet? the manual says my genitals would disappear and i would have golden fetus inside me, but nothing happened.

It's a metaphor.

CicadaL9H
03-23-2013, 02:19 PM
"Are you saying the benefit of internal arts has nothing to do with the movement or breathing?"
IronFist, don't all forms of exercise depend on movement and breathing? I agree that these two things solely constitute Chi-Kung exercise, from the outside looking in, but there is a whole cultural perspective that goes along with "Internal Kungfu" that can lead you to your goal. There's an anatomical/physiological perspective as well, otherwise yes, the books sound like mystical mumbo-jumbo. a real Teacher can help you, but good luck finding one.
Go to a door-jam or pole or tree or something (typical modern example; pushing a car); any immovable object will do. Push, with proper posture, from the ground up etc. What happens? You breath out a grunt, Your diaphram lowers, your euro-genital diaphram contracts and your belly pushes outward...You breath OUT but your stomach EXPANDS, not contracts. Its pretty simple man, its natural and happens naturally.

SPJ
03-29-2013, 09:01 AM
there are 2 major aspects

1 yi or intent

use yi to lead your movement or non movement

we need to practice standing in many postures

so that we may detect minute changes in fine movements of our body

we know ourself and the opponent's intent even before he moves or starts to move

--

that is hard.

2 Xin or heart

--

my point is that qi is only part of the story and not the whole thing

--

:)

CicadaL9H
04-16-2013, 01:41 PM
The body must unite with the heart, the heart must unite with the chi, the chi must unite with the mind. The mind must unite with the chi, the chi must unite with the heart, the heart must unite with the body.

YouKnowWho
04-16-2013, 01:48 PM
use yi to lead your movement or non movement ...
Did our "internal" expert just said instead of using Yi to lead your movement, you should react without thinking about it?


You need to be able to react with out thinking about it, if you are doing internal it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much.

Scott R. Brown
04-17-2013, 08:45 AM
The body must unite with the heart, the heart must unite with the chi, the chi must unite with the mind. The mind must unite with the chi, the chi must unite with the heart, the heart must unite with the body.

No...

The fist must connect with the target, or the elbow, or the knee, etc.

Quit worrying about the heart and the chi and the mind and uniting!

Punch stuff, kick stuff, elbow stuff......

It is THAT simple!:rolleyes:

Scott R. Brown
04-17-2013, 08:52 AM
......and your belly pushes outward...You breath OUT but your stomach EXPANDS, not contracts. Its pretty simple man, its natural and happens naturally.

This is wrong as well!

The belly firms up when you lift something heavy. It only expands if you have no core strength or experience lifting heavy weight! An expanding belly when lifting heavy objects is dangerous, unless you WANT a hernia!

You are reading too much philosophical theory from authors who have never lifted anything heavy as a routine practice and not lifting enough heavy weights yourself!

sanjuro_ronin
04-17-2013, 10:04 AM
First 3 IMO.

CicadaL9H
04-17-2013, 02:13 PM
Scott Brown, to clarify, your diaphram pushes down on the viscera from above, wich causes the belly to protrude outward. Yes, your abdominal muscles firm up, obviously.

bai she
04-17-2013, 02:13 PM
Cicada can you explain your definition of stomach expanding? Most people would notice the abdomen gets tighter and expands downward or inward versus outward.

CicadaL9H
04-17-2013, 02:16 PM
Its known as reverse breathing in kungfu but many other athletes are aware of this phenomena. Try lifting something heavy above your head, the reverse tends to happen; your stomch sucks inward (and firms up;contracts)

bai she
04-17-2013, 02:38 PM
You answered just as I was asking. Do you have the original source from your earlier quote in Chinese?I'd be curious to see it.

CicadaL9H
04-17-2013, 02:48 PM
what quote?

bai she
04-17-2013, 03:31 PM
The body must unite with the heart, the heart must unite with the chi, the chi must unite with the mind. The mind must unite with the chi, the chi must unite with the heart, the heart must unite with the body.

This one and the one in the post that comes from your grandteacher and teacher with the philosophy.

CicadaL9H
04-17-2013, 03:54 PM
Its not philosophy, that was my whole point. The quote comes from my Grandteachers book that is not yet published or fully translated from chinese. I shared it because Iv'e been reflecting on it recently and thought SPJ might like it. Its a formula, not a philosophical idea. And its not quite a quote. I added the second sentence.

Scott R. Brown
04-17-2013, 04:10 PM
Why not ask a powerlifter or an Olympic weight lifter if they think one should push out their stomach when they lift something heavy.

They will answer yes, if they are wearing a lifting belt. This is because the waist will push against the belt increasing core stability. However, those of us who do not use lifting belts, WILL NEVER push out our belly. It is dangerous to do so. You firm your waist by tensing the musculature to create a stable core.

And it is a philosophy in the form of a world view of specific principles designed to guide behavior/conduct.

Scott R. Brown
04-17-2013, 04:19 PM
...... hop off my d*ck and go play somewhere else

If your fantasy life involves me on your d!ck while you are manhandling yourself, then you have more serious problems than lifting heavy weights incorrectly!

CicadaL9H
04-17-2013, 04:44 PM
Scott Brown, please don't draw me into an internet battle, those are very demeaning. I deleted the offensive post, lets try to maintain our dignity and respond to the content of eachothers posts, and not our presumptions about eachother

Scott R. Brown
04-17-2013, 05:04 PM
Scott Brown, I asked you to hop off. Please don't draw me into an internet battle, those are very demeaning.

You don't want me to draw YOU in?

You fu(king dipsh!t!!!

Grow up you little pu$$y!

You don't ask someone to not draw you in, then tell them to "hop off your D!CK".

Stop acting like a whiny-a$$ed, gutless little pr!ck.

If you don't want to get drawn into an argument or get criticized or be disagreed with than stop posting on a PUBLIC forum or ignore people and posts that hurt your little feelings!:rolleyes:

bai she
04-17-2013, 05:15 PM
Its not philosophy, that was my whole point. The quote comes from my Grandteachers book that is not yet published or fully translated from chinese. I shared it because Iv'e been reflecting on it recently and thought SPJ might like it. Its a formula, not a philosophical idea. And its not quite a quote. I added the second sentence.

Do you know the name of the book and who wrote it? I have an extensive library of Chinese books.

Dragonzbane76
04-17-2013, 05:34 PM
scott has a point if your going to post on a public forum, people are going to disagree with you. not everyone believes what others believe and they are going to try and prove your "theories" wrong.

Scott R. Brown
04-17-2013, 06:11 PM
It never ceases to amaze me the level of narcissism some people have!

To think you can post on a public forum and then dictate who can respond to your post? It is dumbfounding that some people think they have that right or ability and it is the very definition of narcissism.

You can choose who you want to respond to, but you cannot dictate who responds to you. This is the nature of a public forum.

If a person doesn't like it, then exercise your right to not participate, or act like an adult and ignore people you don't want to interact with.

It is nearly impossible to find any point of view everyone will agree with, this is a fact of life. It is best to accept it and deal with it.

bawang
04-17-2013, 06:37 PM
qigong is useless without lifting weights.

xinyidizi
04-17-2013, 06:40 PM
Did our "internal" expert just said instead of using Yi to lead your movement, you should react without thinking about it?

You use Yi in your solo practice, partner drills, push hands, .... so that you develop body awareness and internalize a wide range of possible movements. In a fight there is no time to think so you have to let your Xin lead your moves and use whatever you have internalized before instinctually.

CicadaL9H
04-17-2013, 06:47 PM
Scott, you made a statement on a public internet forum that I am reading "too much philosophical theory" and "not lifting enough heavy weights" myself. This is untrue. You do not know me and as I said I'd like to keep this impersonal. Its water under the bridge, and your outbursts about p$ssy this and that, whatever.
As far as what I was talking about (reverse breathing), its not a unheard of in body building/power lifting. I'm sure its easy enough to find info regarding this on the internet. I'm not as good with wording this stuff as some, maybe you misunderstood something

Dragonzbane76
04-17-2013, 07:07 PM
As far as what I was talking about (reverse breathing), its not a unheard of in body building/power lifting

I have yet to meet a powerlifter that inhales when exerting. (if that's what you mean)

My gym where I lift has many many powerlifters that compete. I'm around them all the time. maybe what your writing is not coming across in the meaning you want?

CicadaL9H
04-17-2013, 07:10 PM
No, that is not what I mean

Dragonzbane76
04-17-2013, 07:12 PM
I did a quick google on it and only found really one hit. and most of what he states in the article is "theory" I would not recommend this for heavy lifting. you would more than likely hurt yourself than gain anything.

http://www.dragondoor.com/articles/reverse-breathing/

Scott R. Brown
04-18-2013, 01:26 AM
Scott, you made a statement on a public internet forum that I am reading "too much philosophical theory" and "not lifting enough heavy weights" myself. This is untrue. You do not know me and as I said I'd like to keep this impersonal. Its water under the bridge, and your outbursts about p$ssy this and that, whatever.
As far as what I was talking about (reverse breathing), its not a unheard of in body building/power lifting. I'm sure its easy enough to find info regarding this on the internet. I'm not as good with wording this stuff as some, maybe you misunderstood something

1) For someone who does not want to engage, you are doing a mighty good job of engaging!

2) I can make comments/presumptions about what you know and do not know based upon your comments. The following are brief explanations of how I came to my conclusions. If I am incorrect, please feel free to correct me. I will not be offended by being corrected or by having the intent of your comments clarified.

3) Tai Chi-like philosophy is founded upon Taoist principles and is clearly the basis for some of your comments, whether you are aware of this or not.

Reverse breathing is a Taoist practice and Taoism is a philosophy/religion/way of life/etc. based upon specific principles, which form a philosophy which guides the actions/behaviors of its adherents. If you are unaware of this, then it would behoove you to familiarize yourself more with the historical/philosophical foundation of the comments you make.

Reverse breathing ,


"......and your belly pushes outward...You breath OUT but your stomach EXPANDS, not contracts. Its pretty simple man, its natural and happens naturally."

....is NOT what anyone should do while lifting heavy weights. Pushing your belly out is just the opposite of what one should do. It is irrelevant what your grand-sifu, or whoever he is, wrote in his book. There is not one serious, well-trained weightlifter who would ever do that, nor would any responsible coach instruct his athlete to do so. You are giving poor and possibly dangerous advice/information to others.

If you mean to say one should firm their waist, by contracting their core muscles, specifically the abdomen and back as well as buttocks, hamstrings and any other pertinent muscles, then I agree with you. My issue is the EXPANDING of the belly/stomach is poor technique and will contribute to the increased opportunity for injury.

4) Your other comment...


"The body must unite with the heart, the heart must unite with the chi, the chi must unite with the mind. The mind must unite with the chi, the chi must unite with the heart, the heart must unite with the body."

...is also traditional Tai Chi-like philosophy based upon Taoist principles. While it is good for exercise and athletics and certainly cannot hurt in a fight, is NOT the most important thing one should be focusing upon when training. It is mostly irrelevant whether one can harmonize the chi, mind, body, and heart if they cannot fight, hit and hurt, their opponent, which is what the martial arts are primarily about.

Learn to fight first, then learn to harmonize. This is the way with all -do. Learn the proper technique of the action first, whether it be the tea ceremony, calligraphy, flower arrangement, diving, swordsmanship, etc., then concern yourself with the more esoteric principles/practices. For most advanced athletes this other stuff comes from constant practice anyway. at least for the those that excel beyond their peers.

Correct action/form/technique leads to harmonization as part of a natural process.

5) If you do not want to be called pu$$y this or that, I would avoid using terms like,


"...... hop off my d*ck and go play somewhere else"

and then complain about someone disagreeing with your comments and asking them to play nice. You cannot profess the desire to play nice on the one hand and then use such language on the other.

6) If you disagree with me, or anyone else, feel free to make your argument using proper argumentative form. That is, make a statement, and then support it with evidence. While your grand-sifu is an authority to you, he is not to anyone else here who does not know him. So, his comments are a weak defense of your position if you do not provide other supporting evidence.

Evidence for my position is:

1) I have lifted weights and trained with high caliber athletes for almost 40 years. My original trainer was a National Class Athlete and his son, my high school buddy, was a National Class High School Athlete. We NEVER expand our belly when lifting weights.

2) I have been an athletic trainer in mulit-sports/activities. In all my readings, practice and other forms of learning, I have NEVER read or heard of any coach or trainer recommending to EXPAND the belly during heavy lifting.

3) In all my years I have never seen anyone, in practice, EXPANDING the belly during heavy lifting. This one is easily demonstrated by simply getting on YouTube and watching any Olympic Lifter, Power Lifter, or Bodybuilder lifting heavy weights. You will not find anyone, other than perhaps an occasional nut job, who EXPANDS their belly while lifting heavy weights.

4) If EXPANDING the belly assisted in lifting heavy weights in any way, there would be, not an occasional nut job professing it, it would be common practice by those who participate in heavy lifting competitively. Since winning is their primary goal, anything what works well would be common knowledge and practiced by nearly everyone. If it worked! Essentially, no one uses it, therefore it may be concluded that it DOES NOT WORK! In fact, it could lead to serious injury!

If you disagree with my evidence and conclusions then please demonstrate through argumentative form, that is statement followed by evidence, how/why my evidence is invalid, and support your own claims with substantial evidence, which does not include, "my sifu said so" or by using one or two nut jobs who cannot lift anything substantially heavier than those who do not follow such weight lifting advice. :)