Wing Chun knives video (Leo Au Yeung) [Archive]

poulperadieux

03-20-2013, 01:00 AM

In a friendly match with an accomplished fencer apparently WSL could "touch" the fencer without being touched.
But the bjd these days is for strengthening wing chun motions.

Seems hardly possible if we see how the chinese escrime is late in front of european escrime.

We have a lot of centuries of duels to death, beween people who wrote, as witness, what worked or not, and were well educated noblesse.

All the bart cham dao forms I saw have the same big problem, that is a basis in european escrime, and leave you wide wide exposed by a normal fencer.

Actually, it was pointed out for me for the first time by a 6 year old girl.

poulperadieux

03-20-2013, 01:25 AM

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/205410_10200836403811167_1488389752_n.jpg

1460...

Waaaaay Older whan the Nun's stuff.

Wing Chun is a Young stuff, smart for peasants to find an average boxing system in their villages, but they didn't know **** about weapons, sorry, that's obvious if you trained blades just a little.

poulperadieux

03-20-2013, 02:04 AM

In a friendly match with an accomplished fencer apparently WSL could "touch" the fencer without being touched.
But the bjd these days is for strengthening wing chun motions.

Sorry Sifu Wahlamushti, but, I just watched an old footage of WSL, he's got the very default I told earlier about.

Will be killed by an average european fencer with this very flaw in the basic of basics.

(This was written in fencing manuals in the 15th century in europe... It's quite older than Wing Chun... Sorry)

Paul T England

03-20-2013, 02:07 AM

nice video, ruined shoes.

That is not the form. About 80& of the moves shown is ip chun style knife form.

I don't see many people doing the form justice :(

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

Sihing73

03-20-2013, 05:04 AM

Seems hardly possible if we see how the chinese escrime is late in front of european escrime.

We have a lot of centuries of duels to death, beween people who wrote, as witness, what worked or not, and were well educated noblesse.

All the bart cham dao forms I saw have the same big problem, that is a basis in european escrime, and leave you wide wide exposed by a normal fencer.

Actually, it was pointed out for me for the first time by a 6 year old girl.

I am curious as to what is "Chinese" and "European" Escrima. Last time I checked Escrima was a FMA and hailed from the Phillipines and Indonesian parts of the world.

Also, there is a rich history of fighting from the Phillipine/Indonesian areas, in some instances using fire hardened sticks against "European" Spaniards armed with swords.............guess what, the Spaniards did not always win. :D

Graham H

03-20-2013, 05:13 AM

About 80& of the moves shown is ip chun style knife form.

That explains it.

Ali. R

03-20-2013, 05:24 AM

I don’t care what anyone does or say about anyone’s skill level, you would clearly know what someone can do in the stand up or with weapons; based on how well they could move their feet with consistent balance.

And if they move like they have a stick in their but, then it would be easy for you to put your foot in there as well. That’s if you could move your stance better than your opponent can move his.

Most of these guys move like robots when taken more than two or three steps, and you can see that it doesn’t look natural, because; to them it never feels natural like the way they would want you to think it does. Leaving them in the wakes of being a human punching bag or when dealing with the knives, just plain old hamburger meat.

Sihing73

03-20-2013, 05:35 AM

I don’t care what anyone does or say about anyone’s skill level, you would clearly know what someone can do in the stand up or with weapons; based on how well they could move their feet with consistent balance.

And if they move like they have a stick in their but, then it would be easy for you to put your foot in there as well. That’s if you could move your stance better than your opponent can move his..

You should move naturally and just like you walk. My Hsing Yi instructor was telling me that one of the best Wing Chun guys he ever worked with just moved like he was walking and he was so natural and balanced it was like he was always on point.

I used to move like a robot, now I move like an arthritic robot ;)

Ali. R

03-20-2013, 06:54 AM

This is true; walking through the form would develop a strong sense and sensibility of structure awareness and a strong flow of energy assertiveness.
But in combat or wooden knife sparring, the one which get the better position usually hands out the first cut, because if one misses with his blade he would need enough mobility to move his center of mass within a safe position, to regroup, parry or defend.

This action is very fast and unforgiving and especially when dealing with the knives when taking more than one or two steps. Because you’re gonna get cut sooner or later. And in the years that I’ve trained in FMA and Wing Chun when dealing with the knives, I never just walked through a sparring match.

Because most of the time my opponents were more knowledgeable and faster (Woo John & Mr. Lee) wing chun practitioners, and this guy as well (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN_pP4OjQ8Y&feature=share&list=PL74AD0BAD4D62A11A). I thought I could nullify the pain from the hits by wearing three to four t-shirts, it looked like nothing but felt like hell, and this guys could get behind you within one group of flowing movements.

Jansingsang

03-20-2013, 10:20 AM

Sorry Sifu Wahlamushti, but, I just watched an old footage of WSL, he's got the very default I told earlier about.

Will be killed by an average european fencer with this very flaw in the basic of basics.

(This was written in fencing manuals in the 15th century in europe... It's quite older than Wing Chun... Sorry)

There is a saying in VT The Baat jaam do has no match ! I believe in the form.Wsl version .Not what we witness here in Ip chuns mangled version with poor foorwork no angleing, trieffling flipping knifes nonsence that can get you killed . Yip man was the first to beat the fencer .Butcher mind state ! :cool:

Ali. R

03-20-2013, 10:50 AM

Not what we witness here in Ip chuns mangled version with poor foorwork no angleing, trieffling flipping knifes nonsence that can get you killed . Yip man was the first to beat the fencer [B]

The flipping of the knives is actually simultaneously parrying, blocking and slashing with the swords. In some words a “Gong Da”.

The lower sword blocks like an “Ngoy Gong Sao”, and the higher sword blocks like a “Garm Sao”, or you could slash with it as well (higher sword).

Ali. R

03-20-2013, 11:05 AM

YouKnowWho

03-20-2013, 11:15 AM

What chance do you think that your double short knifes will have any chance to deal with this 1.7 Kg and 140 cm (4.3 ft) long "苗刀Miao Dao- The Grain Leaf Saber"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noYb1p3L0Sg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZUCFPKKJhA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKlNdF3xoKM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paJ03Pk7E14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyXijEQExJQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzG8KjPGtL0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&v=BP4IyS0Prqk&NR=1

Ali. R

03-20-2013, 12:01 PM

What chance do you think that your double short knifes will have any chance to deal with this 1.7 Kg and 140 cm (4.3 ft) long "苗刀Miao Dao- The Grain Leaf Saber"?

Like in any fight, a knife fight is one you should walk away from, but you should treat it like the pole and only work the swords as an extension of the hands. And as quick as the hands move without the swords, you should develop the same agility with them.

And try to take advantage of the big movements of that weapon as if someone was throwing very large and telegraphing punches or kicks and by taking up his space (don’t get caught on the end of that weapon) while trapping or pinning that weapon away from your center mass (the advantage of two limbs).

But, the wing chun person having use of two limbs and shorter weapons compared to his opponent, has a better chance in making the other guy fight for his balance. But when dealing with blades you’ll never know, and when sparring against a 9 or 11 foot pole it has been done, while in most blade arts the pole or stick has always been consider as a bladed weapon (in training).

Take care,

Jansingsang

03-20-2013, 02:10 PM

One day, I’ll show some applications; as someone swings a heavy pole in real time and as hard as they want too.

That movement can also be used as a reinforced block; both swords support each other within a very hard swing of the pole, or simply blocking a low attack while simultaneously hacking at the wrist of your opponent.

Yes, that be Intresting too see that in action realtime know doubt .Within the Wsl line the same effect can be aqquired , useing the Bong do movement at short range I most definitely would prefer as it brings a more safer reasurance responce. as no flipping invovled ? Hence risk of dropping knifes; In high speed intensecity of the fight .Which i feel is a more fisable reality of happening, making my as&% comprimised some what . If it works lam using that sh%t and what dont i discard and find a more practical solution to the problem !

stonecrusher69

03-20-2013, 02:13 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=smwcvKXchwc

Nice Video production..

stonecrusher69

03-20-2013, 02:16 PM

You should move naturally and just like you walk. My Hsing Yi instructor was telling me that one of the best Wing Chun guys he ever worked with just moved like he was walking and he was so natural and balanced it was like he was always on point.

I used to move like a robot, now I move like an arthritic robot ;)

Good point..when it looks like your doing nothing its when your doing the most.

wingchunIan

03-20-2013, 04:02 PM

There is a saying in VT The Baat jaam do has no match ! I believe in the form.Wsl version .Not what we witness here in Ip chuns mangled version with poor foorwork no angleing, trieffling flipping knifes nonsence that can get you killed . Yip man was the first to beat the fencer .Butcher mind state ! :cool:

So you see an over dramatised, very abstract film clip and feel qualified to comment on how a whole lineage trains:rolleyes:
The knife form is no different to the other wing chun forms, there are things that lend themselves to direct application, elements for conditioning, abstract concepts and movements necessary to transition between other elements.

Jansingsang

03-20-2013, 04:24 PM

So you see an over dramatised, very abstract film clip and feel qualified to comment on how a whole lineage trains:rolleyes:
The knife form is no different to the other wing chun forms, there are things that lend themselves to direct application, elements for conditioning, abstract concepts and movements necessary to transition between other elements.

Look the fellas from that neck of the woods Ip chun Kwok Whatever same form Not my cup of char Ok whatever floats your boat and puts a smile on your grumpy chops, each too there own so be it :o

poulperadieux

03-20-2013, 04:56 PM

There is a saying in VT The Baat jaam do has no match ! I believe in the form.Wsl version .Not what we witness here in Ip chuns mangled version with poor foorwork no angleing, trieffling flipping knifes nonsence that can get you killed . Yip man was the first to beat the fencer .Butcher mind state ! :cool:

Saw WSL form... It has the same flaw, the same basic Flaw as the others.

I'll never leatrn Baat Jaam Do, I don't Think Wing Chun knows a **** about knives, there is better out there for weapons.

Jansingsang

03-20-2013, 05:06 PM

Saw WSL form... It has the same flaw, the same basic Flaw as the others.

I'll never leatrn Baat Jaam Do, I don't Think Wing Chun knows a **** about knives, there is better out there for weapons.

Nobodys perfect boo hoo:rolleyes:

Not being funny How can you judge something youve never learn't Wow :eek:

poulperadieux

03-20-2013, 05:30 PM

Nobodys perfect boo hoo:rolleyes:

Not being funny How can you judge something youve never learn't Wow :eek:

No no, I refused to learn it, because of the flaw I saw.

I trained fencing, so I couldn't learn the wing chun knife form because of some move you do at the beginning of the form, and thain it get worse.

But, if you didn't noticed, I'll let you like that, I don't pretend to teach on internet.

But fencers here should see what I'm talking about.

Vajramusti

03-20-2013, 05:51 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=smwcvKXchwc
-------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for showing that.
It's a showy fun version from Ip Chun lineage. There are different versions of the bjd.

It helps me to distinguish between development and application.

We dont walk around these days with a kwan or a do- but of properly taught and learned they can help in further development of the wing chun body and hands and footwork..

The thread is likely to wander as threads on this forum do.

poulperadieux

03-20-2013, 05:56 PM

-------------------------------------------------------

We dont walk around these days with a kwan or a do- but of properly taught and learned they can help in further development of the wing chun body and hands and footwork..

The thread is likely to wander as threads on this forum do.

Precisely

Wing chun knoves are to train the Wing Chun Body, they were imported for that, after, there's the legend on the real expertise of wing chun in weapons.

wingchunIan

03-21-2013, 12:29 AM

No no, I refused to learn it, because of the flaw I saw.

I trained fencing, so I couldn't learn the wing chun knife form because of some move you do at the beginning of the form, and thain it get worse.

But, if you didn't noticed, I'll let you like that, I don't pretend to teach on internet.

But fencers here should see what I'm talking about.

Your interpretation of what each movement is for based upon what you see may be incorrect, you are far better to learn from someone who can explain things to you in order to form an understanding. Of course if you have no desire to understand then fair enough, but if so you should refrain from uneducated statements about the efficacy of the weapon.

poulperadieux

03-21-2013, 12:41 AM

Your interpretation of what each movement is for based upon what you see may be incorrect, you are far better to learn from someone who can explain things to you in order to form an understanding. Of course if you have no desire to understand then fair enough, but if so you should refrain from uneducated statements about the efficacy of the weapon.

No no, I base my affirmation from a fencer point of view.

Didn't know fencing rules and basic principles didn't apply for wing chun guys with knives.

You guys are soooo special.

And speaking about education, did you do a bit of fencing? Did you saw the flaw in the knives form I 'm talking about?

Graham H

03-21-2013, 12:47 AM

The knife form is no different to the other wing chun forms.

In your lineage you consider the knives to be no different??? Strange because in my lineage the thinking is totally different. In fact they contradict many ideas from the other components of the system.

Would you care to explain why you think this? I don't want to bicker but I would guess it is because your Sigung doesn't know. That is quite a common thought these days.

There is a situation in my lineage where by the student will only be taught the knives to people that show their worth in sparring. Due to the dangerous nature of fighting with them, wussies need not apply. Apprehension in knive fighting can lead to injuries. If you don't like to get stuck in and are controlled by fear the knives will be a problem for you. This is why there a quite a few differences within our own lineage. WSL didn't teach too many people knife fighting.

As your Sigung doesn't like fighting I would guess that he probably was shown aspects of the form but no sparring.

Like Leo AY, Ip Chuns Knives are riddled with mistakes. They may look good to the untrained eye but for fighting.....completely wrong.

There is always the chance that you and your peers may have taken things further than you were taught of course but I'd still like to know your thinking behind the knives and how they fit into your system.

Graham H

03-21-2013, 12:51 AM

wingchunIan

03-21-2013, 01:04 AM

No no, I base my affirmation from a fencer point of view.

Didn't know fencing rules and basic principles didn't apply for wing chun guys with knives.

You guys are soooo special.

And speaking about education, did you do a bit of fencing? Did you saw the flaw in the knives form I 'm talking about?

Sounds to me like you are convinced that fencing is the most superior weapon system on the planet and even though that perspective is based upon no knowledge of any other systems, also known as belief based upon ignorance. There are many different concepts in weapons play across the varying martial arts, they all have a rationale and most can be applied effectively in the hands of a skilled practitioner. To claim that fencing is superior to other weapons systems is a bit laughable considering it was evolved to fight someone using the same weapon and fighting in the same fashion.

poulperadieux

03-21-2013, 01:15 AM

Sounds to me like you are convinced that fencing is the most superior weapon system on the planet and even though that perspective is based upon no knowledge of any other systems, also known as belief based upon ignorance. There are many different concepts in weapons play across the varying martial arts, they all have a rationale and most can be applied effectively in the hands of a skilled practitioner. To claim that fencing is superior to other weapons systems is a bit laughable considering it was evolved to fight someone using the same weapon and fighting in the same fashion.

Fencing IS the most efficient system with blades on the planet of course.
And it's very true.

European have a lot of history of real documented life at stake duels to prove that.

There were written manuals, where people noted, after someone's death, what worked and what didn't. An there was a lot of deaths.

No forms in fencing, little theory, simple nomenclature, and more than 3 thousand years of practice.

And, just to inform you a bit more, there was a lot of different blades in Europe, and different styles, Italian were the best, than the spanish stole from them as the Italian turned Wing Chun men style, than the French stole from the spanish.

The german school is a bit a part, Lichtenhauer is badass.

Look at this vidéo, if you butcher knives can be match :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

poulperadieux

03-21-2013, 01:18 AM

You may as well give up on this one. You clearly don't know what you are talking about so, as usual, you make snidey remars at people.

Go on say it......lay a cake or something, say that I am huge and that I have made your day etc etc etc :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

No !

You are just the best.

A bit ignorant on blades basics but still the best on this forum, by far.

PS : It's wing chun guys who say that their wing chun badass butcher knives are no match to anybody...

They never met lichtenhauer masters with long swords...

wingchunIan

03-21-2013, 01:33 AM

[QUOTE]In your lineage you consider the knives to be no different??? Strange because in my lineage the thinking is totally different. In fact they contradict many ideas from the other components of the system. Graham why don't you actually try reading my post first before

There is a situation in my lineage where by the student will only be taught the knives to people that show their worth in sparring. Due to the dangerous nature of fighting with them, wussies need not apply. Apprehension in knive fighting can lead to injuries. Apprehension in any form of fighting leads to injuries, it is just magnified in weapons fighting because of teh consequences of a single blow.

If you don't like to get stuck in and are controlled by fear the knives will be a problem for you. This is why there a quite a few differences within our own lineage. WSL didn't teach too many people knife fighting.
Fair enough if true, WSL had his own way of doing things

As your Sigung doesn't like fighting I would guess that he probably was shown aspects of the form but no sparring. Guess being the operative word, I could say the same about WSL (but i wouldn't out of respect) as none of us were there. Sigung's training has changed as he has gotten older, as he is now 90 he has less interest in fighting and more interest in the health benefits of Wing Chun, it hasn't always been this way.

Like Leo AY, Ip Chuns Knives are riddled with mistakes. They may look good to the untrained eye but for fighting.....completely wrong You know this how? Were you taught the knives by Ip Chun? Seriously who taught you the knives, other than PB I'd genuinely be interested to know?

There is always the chance that you and your peers may have taken things further than you were taught of course but I'd still like to know your thinking behind the knives and how they fit into your system. Nothing wrong with what I was taught or what my sifu was taught. If you mean do we train the knives outside of the form, then yes - both against targets and in sparring. As for where the knife form fits into the system, it has multiple facets. In addition to its primary goal of learning to fight with the weapons (which is different to fighting empty handed), it teaches new footwork and angling, it refines elbow control, builds energy and improves power delivery in hand techniques, gives a workout to the wrists and shoulders, improves dexterity and much more.

Paul T England

03-21-2013, 02:03 AM

Its sad when so many people are 100% correct these days when people like WSL and Ip Man had a humble attitude.

People put thier understanding into thier movements and forms. The important thing is that each person keeps developing.

You never reach perfection so how can you talk about other peoples errors with such superiority.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

Graham H

03-21-2013, 02:40 AM

Graham why don't you actually try reading my post first before

Yes I will endeavour to read them next time :confused:

Apprehension in any form of fighting leads to injuries, it is just magnified in weapons fighting because of teh consequences of a single blow.

Yes

Fair enough if true, WSL had his own way of doing things
Guess being the operative word, I could say the same about WSL (but i wouldn't out of respect) as none of us were there. Sigung's training has changed as he has gotten older, as he is now 90 he has less interest in fighting and more interest in the health benefits of Wing Chun, it hasn't always been this way.

I would say it has. Ip Chun has never been known as a fighter and his ideas on Wing Chun have never been my cuppa. Each to his own I guess.

You know this how? Were you taught the knives by Ip Chun? Seriously who taught you the knives, other than PB I'd genuinely be interested to know?

No I wasn't taught by Ip Chun but I was taught within his lineage. I have also watched Ip Chun play knives in the flesh, listened to what he said about them and watch his applications and they are not good................for me.

Nothing wrong with what I was taught or what my sifu was taught. If you mean do we train the knives outside of the form, then yes - both against targets and in sparring.

That's good.

As for where the knife form fits into the system, it has multiple facets. In addition to its primary goal of learning to fight with the weapons (which is different to fighting empty handed), it teaches new footwork and angling, it refines elbow control, builds energy and improves power delivery in hand techniques, gives a workout to the wrists and shoulders, improves dexterity and much more.

Ok, you say elbow control? Are saying you control knives from the elbow as we do in empty hand?

What "energy" ?

wingchunIan

03-21-2013, 03:30 AM

Yes I will endeavour to read them next time :confused:
no need to be confused just read the post and you will hopefully understand, there were no long words or anything :)

Ok, you say elbow control? Are saying you control knives from the elbow as we do in empty hand? No, not at all. Some motions are still powered by the elbow but many others the wrist replaces the elbow. What I was reffering to in my post is the magnifying factor of the blade. If you are slightly off in your positions empty hand it is hand to notice, however teh tip of the blade being further away than the hand magnifies any imperfections making them noticeable thus requiring greater control of the arm.

What "energy" ? energy, force call it what you will. Where do you focus your intent when striking with the knives? Making the knives sing is challenging and rewarding.

Graham H

03-21-2013, 03:39 AM

no need to be confused just read the post and you will hopefully understand, there were no long words or anything :)

Ok will do. Thanks then :p

No, not at all. Some motions are still powered by the elbow but many others the wrist replaces the elbow. What I was reffering to in my post is the magnifying factor of the blade. If you are slightly off in your positions empty hand it is hand to notice, however teh tip of the blade being further away than the hand magnifies any imperfections making them noticeable thus requiring greater control of the arm.

Need to re-read that one a couple hundred times :D

energy, force call it what you will. Where do you focus your intent when striking with the knives? Making the knives sing is challenging and rewarding.

Funny you should say that but just the other night my knives started singing "You can't touch this" by MC Hammer. How bizarre?

thedreamer7

03-21-2013, 12:11 PM

Like Leo AY, Ip Chuns Knives are riddled with mistakes. They may look good to the untrained eye but for fighting.....completely wrong.

How can you make that assumption?
Can you show us a fighting example of the knife form?

k gledhill

03-21-2013, 12:27 PM

Very brief.
http://youtu.be/I3cY7vlP310

3:11- 3:25
http://youtu.be/r6YVmNnuSIA

k gledhill

03-21-2013, 12:30 PM

How can you make that assumption?
Can you show us a fighting example of the knife form?

Agree I also see wrong angles and actions.

Graham H

03-21-2013, 01:24 PM

How can you make that assumption?
Can you show us a fighting example of the knife form?

Erm, because I can.

We learn the forms and surrounding drills for sparring. We learn the pole for sparring, We learn the knives for sparring. They all compliment each other and improve our Ving Tsun. Everything in Ving Tsun is directed towards sparring and ultimately if one ever has to use it to protect themselves.....real fighting.

We don't do fancy knives on river banks. This is only good for Kung Fu movies. If that was his intention then I hope to see him on TV soon :)

Ali. R

03-21-2013, 01:27 PM

How can you make that assumption?
Can you show us a fighting example of the knife form?

I’m not sure what this is all about, but it’s nothing wrong with what he’s doing (Leo Au Yeung).

Take care,

Graham H

03-21-2013, 01:27 PM

Does anyone actually know who taught Ip Chun his knife form?

wingchunian :D:D

Graham H

03-21-2013, 01:28 PM

I’m not sure what this is all about, but it’s nothing wrong with what he’s doing (Leo Au Yeung).

Take care,

In your opinion

Ali. R

03-21-2013, 01:34 PM

In your opinion

My opinion has nothing to do with it, but thank you very much.

Take care,

Graham H

03-21-2013, 01:54 PM

My opinion has nothing to do with it, but thank you very much.

Take care,

You gave your opinion and I responded to it. This is a forum after all. If you think that there is nothing wrong with Leos knives it means you are not aware of the problems inside or are you just complimenting him on his dramatic prowess? :D

Ali. R

03-21-2013, 02:44 PM

You gave your opinion and I responded to it. This is a forum after all.

I have no problem with what you said. :confused:

If you think that there is nothing wrong with Leos knives it means you are not aware of the problems inside or are you just complimenting him on his dramatic prowess? :D

I thank you for your opinion; it’s your right to trash whomever; but no, that’s not it.

Look, you’ve really told on yourself on another thread (made it clear), so it makes no sense for me to fight with you.

Take care,

thedreamer7

03-21-2013, 03:44 PM

We don't do fancy knives on river banks. This is only good for Kung Fu movies. If that was his intention then I hope to see him on TV soon :)

Actually you will. He has a role in the next Ip Man movie. I hope you enjoy it:)

Graham H

03-21-2013, 11:54 PM

Actually you will. He has a role in the next Ip Man movie. I hope you enjoy it:)

Excellent! I prefer to learn a system that doesn't work in the movies. :)

Paul T England

03-22-2013, 01:51 AM

The butterfly knives reflect your empty hand style so each person will be a little different. All southern styles, hung gar, choy li fut, pak mei etc have butterfly knife forms and techniques based on their styles fighting methods.

I honestly think that like the dummy and pole, the knives probably only consisted of drills and principles and not a standard form until ip man generation.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

thedreamer7

03-22-2013, 03:54 AM

Excellent! I prefer to learn a system that doesn't work in the movies. :)

Sure your interested in anything non Philipp Bayer?

Graham H

03-22-2013, 04:43 AM

thedreamer7

03-22-2013, 04:48 AM

Having experienced quite a few other lineages no I am not.

In fact had I not met PB I would have gone back to Boxing or something because Wing Chun is generally full of nonsense.

..........in my opinion.

Your loss.
You're making the mistake of over anaylizing video footage. The videos that are put up on YouTube are not instructional videos. They are just examples.

You will have to touch hands with Leo before you can really trash him. His teacher is Sifu Sin Kwok Lam, I am sure you have no experience in that lineage.

wingchunIan

03-22-2013, 05:00 AM

[QUOTE=Graham H;1220688]In fact had I not met PB I would have gone back to Boxing or something because Wing Chun is generally full of nonsense.
QUOTE]

blast that pesky PB :D

Graham H

03-22-2013, 05:39 AM

Your loss.
You're making the mistake of over anaylizing video footage. The videos that are put up on YouTube are not instructional videos. They are just examples.

Its not my loss! I have experienced Wing Chun from all over inside and outside of Hong Kong. I have watched Leo's instructional things and his ideas are the same as what I have practiced before AND moved on from.

As for touching hands with him, what do you mean? Chi Sau? No way! Chi Sau is not fighting or sparring. Rolling with somebody from a different lineage is not always possible. Most systems are at the wrist and they don't have too much of an exchange of force. I cannot roll with people like that. Chi Sau is a mutual partner drill for improving. This whole idea of "free chi sau" is not my thinking.

Ving Tsun should be no different from Boxing. You want to have an exchange of skills you put your hands up and attack each other.

In my opinion that video of LAY knives is how NOT to use them. The angles are all wrong. The positions wouldn't be safe enough in sparring. The footwork is not dynamic enough and if he think he can twirl the knives about like that in fighting then he is an alien from another world. These are things I can see from video footage.

That's what people do on here is over analyze video footage. You're right though it is a mistake............in most cases.

Oh yeah and we don't fight on river banks. I wouldn't want to mud up my tai Chi slippers :D:D:D:D

Graham H

03-22-2013, 05:40 AM

blast that pesky PB :D

Wishful thinking :)

thedreamer7

03-22-2013, 05:53 AM

Oh yeah and we don't fight on river banks. I wouldn't want to mud up my tai Chi slippers :D:D:D:D

Oh well, big limitation. Should be able to fight anywhere:)

Graham H

03-22-2013, 05:55 AM

@Dreamer7

BTW.....PB was asked in an interview once why he chose WSL as his teacher. He already practiced LT system before. His answer wasn't WSL's prowess in fighting, his challenge victories or his reputation in HK. He simply answered that it was WSL's thinking. That thinking is different to most and that is why I went there. That thinking is not for everybody and you proved that by choosing LAY over DS. That is a move I don't understand.

We are all different with different agendas and priorities. This forum is a good advert for that ;)

Graham H

03-22-2013, 05:56 AM

Should be able to fight anywhere:)

I knew that was coming :)

Graham H

03-22-2013, 05:58 AM

I agree with this statement. I've "rolled" with other lineages before and the geometry sometimes just doesn't line up and the 'rolling' is over very quickly. :D

.......not a good idea to "roll" with anybody outside your own school until both parties are on the same page. Better to spar a little. ;)

thedreamer7

03-22-2013, 06:02 AM

@Dreamer7
That thinking is not for everybody and you proved that by choosing LAY over DS. That is a move I don't understand.

We are all different with different agendas and priorities. This forum is a good advert for that ;)

I liked DS very much, so I won't trash. However I also liked LAY thinking. At the time I was doing intense Sanda training in China and had mixed results in the fights I had. I primarily liked the fact the LAY made it clear if I train with him I can also go see other linages and styles to improve myself.
He had detailed explanation on all concepts of martial arts. I liked his technique and structure. He also put strong emphasis on physical conditioning...
And simply put when we sparred he totally destroyed me.

Graham H

03-22-2013, 06:16 AM

I liked DS very much, so I won't trash. However I also liked LAY thinking. At the time I was doing intense Sanda training in China and had mixed results in the fights I had. I primarily liked the fact the LAY made it clear if I train with him I can also go see other linages and styles to improve myself.
He had detailed explanation on all concepts of martial arts. I liked his technique and structure. He also put strong emphasis on physical conditioning...
And simply put when we sparred he totally destroyed me.

We both have found our paths. Amen :D

Graham H

03-22-2013, 06:19 AM

..........anything can happen :D

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/world-of-sport/outrageous-streetfighter-ii-style-move-ends-karate-bout-112509382.html

LoneTiger108

03-22-2013, 10:01 AM

I primarily liked the fact the LAY made it clear if I train with him I can also go see other linages and styles to improve myself.

You will find this quite common now with the Sifus in HK and China too, as the MMA world has had this effect on the more Traditional 'One Sifu for life' teachers like my own. Chinese MMA has been going on for quite a while now too, say more than 400 years ;)

LAY is also a Sifu of Hung Gar isn't he? And Taichi? Being a practitioner of other Southern Arts too, he will always be open like that which is a great way to appeal to the MMA types.

When you are restricted by your Sifu from 'touching hands' with other lineages it is sometimes because of their own insecurities, knowing that the 'roll' will be different and sooner or later end up in a fight/spar of sorts anyway. I also find it's because they are hidng something too, like a lack of true understanding, and the only way to 'exchange' is to have patience and share eachothers methods over time. This way both parties will feel eachothers way and benefit accordingly.

I would hazard a guess here that even within ones own lineage there will be differences in rotations and chisau practises. I know this is true from my own experience meeting and exchanging with my own family members, and each way has its strengths and weaknesses.

But if we are to talk about weaponry, and how to promote the knives especially in a stylized cinematic way, I have yet to see anything as appealing as the work Sifu Leo is doing. His experience working in the HK movie industry has obviously had a good influence on his artistry... but I understand that isn't everyones cuppa tea!!

thedreamer7

03-22-2013, 07:01 PM

You will find this quite common now with the Sifus in HK and China too, as the MMA world has had this effect on the more Traditional 'One Sifu for life' teachers like my own. Chinese MMA has been going on for quite a while now too, say more than 400 years ;)

LAY is also a Sifu of Hung Gar isn't he? And Taichi? Being a practitioner of other Southern Arts too, he will always be open like that which is a great way to appeal to the MMA types.

When you are restricted by your Sifu from 'touching hands' with other lineages it is sometimes because of their own insecurities, knowing that the 'roll' will be different and sooner or later end up in a fight/spar of sorts anyway. I also find it's because they are hidng something too, like a lack of true understanding, and the only way to 'exchange' is to have patience and share eachothers methods over time. This way both parties will feel eachothers way and benefit accordingly.

I would hazard a guess here that even within ones own lineage there will be differences in rotations and chisau practises. I know this is true from my own experience meeting and exchanging with my own family members, and each way has its strengths and weaknesses.

But if we are to talk about weaponry, and how to promote the knives especially in a stylized cinematic way, I have yet to see anything as appealing as the work Sifu Leo is doing. His experience working in the HK movie industry has obviously had a good influence on his artistry... but I understand that isn't everyones cuppa tea!!

Correct, he is into Hung Gar & Tai chi. Also other things.
I have always been taught to question any technique or training style.
Not get involved with cults, etc.

LoneTiger108

03-25-2013, 04:03 AM

Correct, he is into Hung Gar & Tai chi. Also other things.
I have always been taught to question any technique or training style.
Not get involved with cults, etc.

I think we have all been taught that, but getting involved with cults?? That's a new one even for me... didn't think Sifu Leo was into such things :confused:

LaRoux

03-26-2013, 09:18 AM

.......not a good idea to "roll" with anybody outside your own school until both parties are on the same page. Better to spar a little. ;)

f'unny how there are so many chi sao videoes out there, but almost none of sparring.

Grumblegeezer

03-26-2013, 10:29 AM

f'unny how there are so many chi sao videoes out there, but almost none of sparring.

I don't really care about how many (usually bad) videos there are out there, except that, as you imply, it is probably does reflect a deplorable lack of sparring in most WC training.

BTW LaRoux, --didn't see anything in your "profile" --are you a WC practitioner or are you giving an outside perspective on this problem?

Graham H

03-26-2013, 01:13 PM

f'unny how there are so many chi sao videoes out there, but almost none of sparring.

An ideal time to put some of your sparring videos up then.

LaRoux

03-26-2013, 02:52 PM

An ideal time to put some of your sparring videos up then.

The ideal time for that would be when I was making claims about my own sparring.

The moment I do that, I'll be sure to put those up.

Hopefully, you'll do the same. I won't hold my breath on that one though.

Graham H

03-26-2013, 03:02 PM

The ideal time for that would be when I was making claims about my own sparring.

The moment I do that, I'll be sure to put those up.

Hopefully, you'll do the same. I won't hold my breath on that one though.

You want to see my sparring then you can come to my yard. Videos cause arguments. Trying to punch each other does not.

LaRoux

03-26-2013, 03:28 PM

You want to see my sparring then you can come to my yard. Videos cause arguments. Trying to punch each other does not.

Posting claims about sparring with no evidence for sparring causes arguments also. That hasn't stopped you from making those claims, though.

Grumblegeezer

03-26-2013, 07:00 PM

Posting claims about sparring with no evidence for sparring causes arguments also. That hasn't stopped you from making those claims, though.

Man, I wish you two guys really would get together, put some gloves on and work this out rather than waste space here. Then you could both post a video! That would be fun.

Anyway, LaRoux, like I asked before --seriously, with no disrespect, what MA do you train?

Phil Redmond

03-26-2013, 08:05 PM

Very brief.
http://youtu.be/I3cY7vlP310

3:11- 3:25
http://youtu.be/r6YVmNnuSIA
I like the fact that Bayer takes the blindside with the knives.
I also like this WSL saying in your signature:
>WSL: Combat experience is more important than any other thing.<
I wish more WC people fought. We wouldn't have the lineage superiority mess.

Grumblegeezer

03-26-2013, 08:55 PM

I also like this WSL saying in your signature:
>WSL: Combat experience is more important than any other thing.<
I wish more WC people fought. We wouldn't have the lineage superiority mess.

Phil, props for your wise words. Your sifu, my sifu, WSL, and many others all disagreed. But when I look at some of the videos posted and see what you guys do, some of it makes a lot of sense. If more people got together to test their stuff out, maybe everybody's WC would improve.

Here's a few random thoughts.

1. The students of my sifu's enemies are not my enemies. To hell with Sifu-worship!

2. Take nothing on faith alone.

3. If "you" (in the general sense) show me that you can kick my backside, I'm not all that impressed. A lot of guys can do that. But if you can show me something that helps me kick booty, you bet I'll listen and be in your debt.

wingchunIan

03-27-2013, 01:41 AM

I wish more WC people fought. We wouldn't have the lineage superiority mess.

we would still have the same arguments because ultimately fighting is as much about the individual as the style. I've got students who have only been training a year who would give several far more experienced guys I know from other lineages hell. Does that mean that they should change what they are doing? hell no it just means that the individuals in question are hard as nails.
Unfortunately the martial arts world is dominated by little men with big egos who feel the need to aggressively market what they do in order to make a quick buck.

Graham H

03-27-2013, 02:15 AM

put some gloves on and work this out rather than waste space here.

No gloves!

You accusing us of wasting space? How ironic. Take a look around. :rolleyes:

thedreamer7

03-27-2013, 10:28 AM

I like the fact that Bayer takes the blindside with the knives.
I also like this WSL saying in your signature:
>WSL: Combat experience is more important than any other thing.<
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1221875]
I wish more WC people fought. We wouldn't have the lineage superiority mess.

Any ideas on how to make this happen?
Maybe we should all design a tournament?
:)

Graham H

03-27-2013, 11:58 AM

I like the fact that Bayer takes the blindside with the knives.

There is a good reason for that otherwise your chances of getting hurt severly increase.

How do you fight with the knives Phil. Where do you aim to attack first and why?

Phil Redmond

03-27-2013, 03:48 PM

There is a good reason for that otherwise your chances of getting hurt severly increase.

How do you fight with the knives Phil. Where do you aim to attack first and why?
It all depends on positioning but It's good to check the weapon, then slice/slash the wrist/forearm to disarm the person.

Phil Redmond

03-27-2013, 03:54 PM

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1221875]I like the fact that Bayer takes the blindside with the knives.
I also like this WSL saying in your signature:
>WSL: Combat experience is more important than any other thing.<

Any ideas on how to make this happen?
Maybe we should all design a tournament?
:)

Since we are the laughing stock of the martial arts world I'd say yes to WC tournys. The argument that WC is too deadly for competition is laughable. Other martial arts that compete also have "deadly" techniques. They just don't use them in competitions. You can adapt any striking art for competitions. Even with gloves.

Phil Redmond

03-27-2013, 03:56 PM

Phil, props for your wise words. Your sifu, my sifu, WSL, and many others all disagreed. But when I look at some of the videos posted and see what you guys do, some of it makes a lot of sense. If more people got together to test their stuff out, maybe everybody's WC would improve.

Here's a few random thoughts.

1. The students of my sifu's enemies are not my enemies. To hell with Sifu-worship!

2. Take nothing on faith alone.

3. If "you" (in the general sense) show me that you can kick my backside, I'm not all that impressed. A lot of guys can do that. But if you can show me something that helps me kick booty, you bet I'll listen and be in your debt.
That was on point. :)

Phil Redmond

03-27-2013, 04:03 PM

we would still have the same arguments because ultimately fighting is as much about the individual as the style. I've got students who have only been training a year who would give several far more experienced guys I know from other lineages hell. Does that mean that they should change what they are doing? hell no it just means that the individuals in question are hard as nails.
Unfortunately the martial arts world is dominated by little men with big egos who feel the need to aggressively market what they do in order to make a quick buck.
I disagree. Most fighters I know are really laid back. They are confident in their skills and they know they can lose some and win some. It's usually people who have never tested their art outside of the comfort zone of their respective kwoon/dojo/dojang etc. They are the ones more prone to Sifu/lineage worship, and worst of all, trash talking other styles/lineages. You'll see trash talking in MMA. K1, Boxing before the fight. That's the promotional hype. But in most cases you'll see the respect for each other after the fight. Of course there are some exceptions where there is really bad blood between two fighters but that's not the norm. Hanging out with an opponent after a fight is not uncommon.

thedreamer7

03-27-2013, 04:09 PM

[QUOTE=thedreamer7;1221974]

Since we are the laughing stock of the martial arts world I'd say yes to WC tournys. The argument that WC is too deadly for competition is laughable. Other martial arts that compete also have "deadly" techniques. They just don't use them in competitions. You can adapt any striking art for competitions. Even with gloves.

Well I spar with 4 oz gloves and think that is fine.
Would you make this WC only or more a different variant of MMA?

Phil Redmond

03-27-2013, 04:23 PM

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1222070]

Well I spar with 4 oz gloves and think that is fine.
Would you make this WC only or more a different variant of MMA?
To be hones, I think WC only at first so people can get their feet wet. Then maybe later invite other styles. But that's just my take on the subject. I'm open to whatever. You'd be surprised how attitudes change among fighters. A WC tourny could promote brotherhood. Maybe I'm a little too optimistic. Who knows?

Phil Redmond

03-27-2013, 04:23 PM

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1222070]

Well I spar with 4 oz gloves and think that is fine.
Would you make this WC only or more a different variant of MMA?
To be honest, I think WC only at first so people can get their feet wet. Then maybe later invite other styles. But that's just my take on the subject. I'm open to whatever. You'd be surprised how attitudes change among fighters. A WC tourny could promote brotherhood. Maybe I'm a little too optimistic. Who knows?

poulperadieux

03-27-2013, 06:30 PM

Vajramusti

03-27-2013, 06:39 PM

thedreamer7

03-27-2013, 06:52 PM

When you bring a gong fu in a ring with rules, you gain some things, you loose other things.

Considering the current state of WC politics we have more to gain.

k gledhill

03-27-2013, 07:16 PM

Vajramusti

03-27-2013, 08:58 PM

No footwork ? That's a primary function of WSL PB fighting.
-------------------------------------------------------------- Tiresome-Chest beating? Ok-your opinion.

Mine- possibly not enough foot work in your reference point ,

Vajramusti

03-27-2013, 09:26 PM

1 5 Basic Stances
1 Chor ma (turning stance)
2 Seung Ma or Bue Ma (forwarding stance)
3 Toi Ma or Sayi ma (deflecting stance)
4 Bik ma or bik bo (chasing stance)
5 Sip ma (3 angle stance)
2 5 Combination Stances
1 Seung Gok ma (forward bracing)
2 Toi Gok ma (backward bracing)
3 Ngoi Chiu Ying ma ( inside facing)
4 Hoi Chiu Ying ma (outside facing)
5 Juen ma (180 degree turn)
3 Moving single man techniques (Combination of the stances and the 17 singles, 4 gates and the 8 double hand techniques)
4 Kicking:
1 Jing Dok Lop ma (front single leg)
2 Wang Dok Lop ma (side single leg)
3 Jing/Wang Tai Gurk (control front & side raising kick)
4 Jing/Wang Dang Gurk (control nailing front & side kick)
5 Gaan Gurk (5 Leg Blocks) Soo, Bong, Gaan, Pak Sut, Wu Sut
6 Yin/Yang Rotation of Kicks (Front Kick up/ Down, Side Kick up/Down)
7 Jing Gurk Jut Gurk
8 Pak Gurk in Air
9 Wu Gurk in Air
10 Bong Gurk Chai Gurk
11 Huen Jing Gurk
12 Huen Wang Gurk
13 Tiu Chai Gurk
14 Tiu Tai Gur

poulperadieux

03-27-2013, 11:40 PM

No footwork ? That's a primary function of WSL PB fighting.

So WSL PB your stuff is adapted for sparring.
That's a transformation.

poulperadieux

03-27-2013, 11:46 PM

[QUOTE=poulperadieux;1222141

If you see, for example, the difference between olympic fencing and ancient Fencing (duel fencing with things that cut and pierce), not hte same footwork, not the same stategies, the same risks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is true... but unfortunately dueling is illegal in most places.

But some people do historic reconstruction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc

Based on things that were written by guys who told what worked and what didn't AFTER someone was dead because of the mistake, or because of the superior technique.

And the Writings are still there, you can buy the books or read them on internet.

It's stunning to see all was already written more than 4 centuries ago.

poulperadieux

03-27-2013, 11:52 PM

No footwork ? That's a primary function of WSL PB fighting.

"Yeah, silly Yankees don't know how to read" Captain Obvious.

poulperadieux

03-27-2013, 11:55 PM

Considering the current state of WC politics we have more to gain.

Yeah, bring WC to the Olympic Games Like Taekwondo ! Or in MMA... Wing Chun is far from ethical problems anyway if we see it's history, or maybe not.

I knew it, since Bruce Lee, all toilet boxing guys want to go movie star.

poulperadieux

03-28-2013, 12:06 AM

[QUOTE=poulperadieux;1222141

That is true... but unfortunately dueling is illegal in most places.

Fortunately yes,

Was forbidden in France because too much rich nobless yougsters died ...

From 1588 to 1608, they counted 10 000 deaths. Noted, and used to refine duelling techniques, and weapon technology.
2 Deaths a day.

Do you have the same field experience and writings in the Wing Chun geek world?
With written manuals based on real facts?

Sorry I forgot, now you've got MMA, the superior art of fighting and testing.
We in France, we've got the Tour the France to test Drugs on athletes these days also.

There were still duels in Europe in the beginning of the XXth century, so this is still not so long ago.

Last known duels in France were :

Serge Lifar and marquis de Cuevas in 1958, Gaston Defferre and René Ribière en 1967 for political divergences at l'Assemblée Nationale.

They Still Had fun there these times.

wingchunIan

03-28-2013, 01:26 AM

I disagree. Most fighters I know are really laid back. They are confident in their skills and they know they can lose some and win some. It's usually people who have never tested their art outside of the comfort zone of their respective kwoon/dojo/dojang etc. They are the ones more prone to Sifu/lineage worship, and worst of all, trash talking other styles/lineages. You'll see trash talking in MMA. K1, Boxing before the fight. That's the promotional hype. But in most cases you'll see the respect for each other after the fight. Of course there are some exceptions where there is really bad blood between two fighters but that's not the norm. Hanging out with an opponent after a fight is not uncommon.
I don't disagree Phil and I don't think that anything you've said is contradictory to my original post which was a response to the suggestion that if more people fought the politics and bickering would go away. That will only be the case if the ultimate goal of training becomes sport / competition. When that happens everyone is training towards being a winner in the competition environment and so arguments over whose approach is better become slightly more mute (however you still get inter camp rivalries and marketing battles between local gyms who each have multiple champions at differnet weights or in different organisations). As the primary aim of many Wing Chun practitioners is not to compete in sport then fights and tournaments will only be amongst selected individuals and until you have matched a statistically relevant portion of the populations of two lineages it is impossible to draw any conclusions about the efficacy of practices of either.
Oh and the people who don't fight will continue to have big egos and loud mouths to go with their glossy marketing

poulperadieux

03-28-2013, 02:36 AM

If you want to fight, do some thai matches in thailand.

Than your wing chun will be better when you come back...

Graham H

03-28-2013, 02:48 AM

If you want to fight, do some thai matches in thailand.

Than your wing chun will be better when you come back...

Let me know how it went when you return. :rolleyes:

poulperadieux

03-28-2013, 03:28 AM

Let me know how it went when you return. :rolleyes:

went fine, little big man.

Graham H

03-28-2013, 03:56 AM

went fine, little big man.

...name calling? You hero!

thedreamer7

03-28-2013, 05:28 AM

If you want to fight, do some thai matches in thailand.

Than your wing chun will be better when you come back...

I did that (well China to be exact).
I suggest you try it to find out what works and what doesn't. I am sure many of your theories on the forum will change after.

Graham H

03-28-2013, 06:03 AM

Yes let's do it and whilst we are at it we can try going to a Ninjutsu, Karate, Krav Maga, Mantis, Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, Samba, Boxing, Judo, Sumo, Tea kwon Do, etc etc etc and then when we return we can look in the mirror and say we conquered the world. Only then we will be sure that WC works.

Better still let's give up Wing Chun as it seems many think it doesn't work. There aren't enough sparring videos and Rocky Balboas around to reinforce the fact that WC works. :rolleyes:

What about all of us getting together and the one who wins may have the best Kung Fu and we can all follow him.

Really? Do you guys actually listen to yourselves? :eek:

I don't think Wing Chun as a system deserves to be laughed at. It's the people within that make it rubbish. No need to mention any names. You only have to read some of the responses and it jumps right out of the screen at you. :)

Vajramusti

03-28-2013, 06:41 AM

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1222142]

But some people do historic reconstruction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc

Based on things that were written by guys who told what worked and what didn't AFTER someone was dead because of the mistake, or because of the superior technique.

And the Writings are still there, you can buy the books or read them on internet.

It's stunning to see all was already written more than 4 centuries ago.
-----------------------------------------------
That is a good video of serious long weapon work. Thanks.

k gledhill

03-28-2013, 09:47 AM

So WSL PB your stuff is adapted for sparring.
That's a transformation.

Ironic you ask in a thread about weapons. You have a very fragmented view of "Wing Chun".

Frost

03-28-2013, 09:49 AM

[QUOTE=poulperadieux;1222165]
-----------------------------------------------
That is a good video of serious long weapon work. Thanks.

i second this thanks for sharing

k gledhill

03-28-2013, 09:59 AM

Good clip of using angles and changing angles. In a straight line one can defend and strike in one move. ; ) crazy talk !

LaRoux

03-28-2013, 10:08 AM

I think WC can't be taken in a ring because footwork...

Not suited for Sparring, that's all.

If you want to use something in a ring, use boxing, MMA, Thai Boxing, they were adapted for these kind of conditions.

If you see, for example, the difference between olympic fencing and ancient Fencing (duel fencing with things that cut and pierce), not hte same footwork, not the same stategies, the same risks.

Same difference between Muay Thai and Muay Boran, between French Boxing and Savate...

When you bring a gong fu in a ring with rules, you gain some things, you loose other things.

This argument has been put to rest many times over the past century or so. The first example of this happened back in 1886 when the "we spar full contact with safe techniques" philosopy of Kodokan judo soundly trounced the "our techniques are not suited for sporting competitions" philosophy of Japanese jujutsu in a series of NHB type matches.

There are many examples of of this same thing happening over and over again in the years since.

poulperadieux

03-28-2013, 10:31 AM

poulperadieux

03-28-2013, 10:32 AM

[QUOTE=poulperadieux;1222165]
-----------------------------------------------
That is a good video of serious long weapon work. Thanks.

De rien, was shared by one of the guys who taught me weapons in another place.
Lichtenhauer's writings are older than Wing Chun, but, when you read it, you find a lot of common points.

A real master, this German.

poulperadieux

03-28-2013, 10:35 AM

Good clip of using angles and changing angles. In a straight line one can defend and strike in one move. ; ) crazy talk !

Yep, Lichtenhauer fencing Style, and Wing Chun have a lot in common.

This school found at this time that italians paraded too much, french were too weak on their feets, and well, you read countries reviews on each other fencing style in the 16th century, it sounds oddly familiar !

k gledhill

03-28-2013, 01:15 PM

Yep, Lichtenhauer fencing Style, and Wing Chun have a lot in common.

This school found at this time that italians paraded too much, french were too weak on their feets, and well, you read countries reviews on each other fencing style in the 16th century, it sounds oddly familiar !

The vt staff/pole is not so far off its ideas either. Simple parries with angles to stabbing entries and counter stabs in time to retractions .... Stay with what comes ( and angle accordingly ) strike , stab , thrust as it it retracts. I use this against boxers too.

k gledhill

03-28-2013, 01:31 PM

"Someone who is looking at Ving Tsun and has not spent enough time with a teacher, probably will not know enough footwork. He will not understand the mobility involved in Ving Tsun, the angles of attack, the kicks in all situations. He will therefore want to add something else to the style that he thinks is better for the sake of not knowing."

WSL

wingchunIan

03-28-2013, 03:26 PM

The vt staff/pole is not so far off its ideas either. Simple parries with angles to stabbing entries and counter stabs in time to retractions .... Stay with what comes ( and angle accordingly ) strike , stab , thrust as it it retracts. I use this against boxers too.

Using a pole against boxers is slightly unfair:D

k gledhill

03-28-2013, 05:19 PM

Using a pole against boxers is slightly unfair:D

True ; ) ....

poulperadieux

03-28-2013, 05:39 PM

"know your ennemy"

Note that I'm not talking about looking in other styles techniques to enhance Wing Chun, but looking in other styles to see a different point of view, to feel it, and understand it.

Being able to think either in English, in French, and a bit in German helps me sometimes to think on concepts in different perspectives these languages offer.

French use metaphors a lot, it's "la pagaille", but makes sense, sort of, just like that.
German are Straight and go directly to the point, but are just surprisingly amazing in poetry
English shines in technical vocabulary and creating concepts simply.

Qui ne sait aucune langue étrangère ne sait pas sa propre langue. » Goethe.

cobra

03-28-2013, 08:22 PM

I was going to study fencing....but I saw a flaw that it couldn't stop a .45 ACP round, so....

LaRoux

03-29-2013, 12:27 AM

Using a pole against boxers is slightly unfair:D

Not really. Notice about 2:10 in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=IAlsQMNjAu8

poulperadieux

03-29-2013, 12:45 AM

I was going to study fencing....but I saw a flaw that it couldn't stop a .45 ACP round, so....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGPDz0Pu5ZQ

Vajramusti

03-29-2013, 11:23 AM

Vajramusti,
Nice post.
I understand the other items in your list, but not this section. It could be a difference in vocabulary or terminology but could you expand on this part more? Does your lineage or interpretation only recognize '4 gates'?
What is meant by '8 double hand techniques'?

Thanks in advance.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No problem in explaining.

1. 4 upper gates, 2 lower gates-total 6 gates-ofcourse that is looking from the front.
When you turn the six gates get realigned accordingly.

2. In Fong sifu's organization of wing chun curriculum---there are single hand- bong. tan etc
and two hand-pak -tan etc drills -- stationary as well as mobile- free hand, on the jong and with a partner.

Hope that clears it up.