Biu Jee, Biu Sau and the Elbow

[Happy Tiger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjtzdNkkfqY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmQJNwp7pSE
I am interested in the groups opinions reguarding the biu sau opening sequence of the biu jee form. In particular, the movement (or lack of) of the elbow relitive to the body. In my opinion, this is one of the biggest fundemental differences in biu jee and if I understand structure, makes a big difference to over all body mechanics of the form...or not. What do you think?

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjtzdNkkfqY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmQJNwp7pSE
I am interested in the groups opinions reguarding the biu sau opening sequence of the biu jee form. In particular, the movement (or lack of) of the elbow relitive to the body. In my opinion, this is one of the biggest fundemental differences in biu jee and if I understand structure, makes a big difference to over all body mechanics of the form...or not. What do you think?

Bil gee elbow is a parallel wrist grab removal/escape. It goes up first so the elbow goes over the forearm of the grabbing arm. When used the wrist is collapsed or it doesn't work iow you are in a position of recovery. You can use angling toi ma to avoid the following striking arm or knife. Then use the same free arm to recover your hand to fac sao neck or thumb gouge eye or simply recover space.
I have used it often in real fights that start with a sudden bull rush grabbing my wrists as I defend and move. As the seung ma toi ma drills only adding wrist recovery. Sometimes the action can be combined with letting the guy rush / fall past you and slam them into a wall.

[Paddington]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjtzdNkkfqY


Is it me or does he forget what the hell he is doing at around 1 min 40 secs?

[Happy Tiger]

Is it me or does he forget what the hell he is doing at around 1 min 40 secs?

Hahaaa .Yeah,a bit bit of a hicough there but I don't hold it against him , though.I was told once that after absorbing BJ it wasn't wise to practice the form too often as it can play havoc with your qi balance and emotional state. Any one else hear that Caution?

[anerlich]

I was told once that after absorbing BJ it wasn't wise to practice the form too often as it can play havoc with your qi balance and emotional state. Any one else hear that Caution?

I can't say I've heard this, though it would explain a lot of posting behaviour on this forum if it were true. :cool:

I've been doing the form for over 15 years and have had no problems holding down jobs, no episodes of public freakouts, no mysterious ailments from blockages in my auric field, etc. etc.

Sounds like sensationalist rubbish from second rate wannabe TCMA mystics to me.

[Vajramusti]

Hahaaa .Yeah,a bit bit of a hicough there but I don't hold it against him , though.I was told once that after absorbing BJ it wasn't wise to practice the form too often as it can play havoc with your qi balance and emotional state. Any one else hear that Caution?
--------------------------------------
Never heard that and it does not make sense.

[k gledhill]

Hahaaa .Yeah,a bit bit of a hicough there but I don't hold it against him , though.I was told once that after absorbing BJ it wasn't wise to practice the form too often as it can play havoc with your qi balance and emotional state. Any one else hear that Caution?

A lot of misunderstanding. It's simple recovery from bad angles or raised arms, trapped elbows, grabbed wrists, ducking, grabbing, gaun sao used to be only in BG. Wrong jum/huen recovery.
Any mumbo jumbo can be attributed to " don't know" subjectivity.
To think doing one form will mess with your qi ; ) really ?
Or that its more dangerous... If so why wait to do it after slt, ck, ?

[Vajramusti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjtzdNkkfqY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmQJNwp7pSE
I am interested in the groups opinions reguarding the biu sau opening sequence of the biu jee form. In particular, the movement (or lack of) of the elbow relitive to the body. In my opinion, this is one of the biggest fundemental differences in biu jee and if I understand structure, makes a big difference to over all body mechanics of the form...or not. What do you think?
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I do NOT wiggle my elbows all over the place in the opening movement after the punch...as WSL does..... not a criticism of WSL-justa different perspective.

[Happy Tiger]

Appreciate all the great input.

[poulperadieux]

Hahaaa .Yeah,a bit bit of a hicough there but I don't hold it against him , though.I was told once that after absorbing BJ it wasn't wise to practice the form too often as it can play havoc with your qi balance and emotional state. Any one else hear that Caution?


It was recommanded to me not to practice BJ every day a week.

Mostely for joint problems, and because it contains 3rd rate solutions, and the main techniques in WC are in the first two forms.

[Graham H]

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I do NOT wiggle my elbows all over the place in the opening movement after the punch...as WSL does..... not a criticism of WSL-justa different perspective.

There is a good reason for this without which the movement is less functional.

......in our lineage of course.

[BPWT]

Here's a clip of the WT version of the Biu Tze form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3a5wdR7ymk

Here you can see the three elbows in the first third of the form (kup jarn, gwai jarn and pie jarn). Lots and lots of potential applications. ;)

[Vajramusti]

There is a good reason for this without which the movement is less functional.

......in our lineage of course.
--------------------------------------------------
OF COURSE! Si

[Graham H]

--------------------------------------------------
OF COURSE! Si

Ooooooooooooooo capital letters :D

[Happy Tiger]

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I do NOT wiggle my elbows all over the place in the opening movement after the punch...as WSL does..... not a criticism of WSL-justa different perspective.
Do your elbows hang low
Or do they wiggle to and fro?
Do they keep to one space
Or do they flit about the place?
Do they neatly orbit yer body
Or track tangents rather oddly?
Do your elbows...hang...low?
Sorry sir, I could not resist.

[Vajramusti]

Ooooooooooooooo capital letters :D
----------------------------------

of course

[k gledhill]

Joy how do you apply pressure to the wrists of the grabbing arm if you don't " wiggle/drop " the elbow ? Chi-na drops the elbow but holds the grabbing hand so it is a submission hold.

[Graham H]

do your elbows hang low
or do they wiggle to and fro?
Do they keep to one space
or do they flit about the place?
Do they neatly orbit yer body
or track tangents rather oddly?
Do your elbows...hang...low?
Sorry sir, i could not resist.

lmfao :D :D :D

[k gledhill]

Joy , silent ?

[Ali. R]

There is a good reason for this without which the movement is less functional.

......in our lineage of course.

The first three forms are all training forms and the last three forms are all application forms.


Take care,

[k gledhill]

The first three forms are all training forms and the last three forms are all application forms.


Take care,

?:confused:......,

[Ali. R]

?:confused:......,


Oh my goodness!

[k gledhill]

Oh my goodness!

Still waiting .....

[wingchunIan]

Joy how do you apply pressure to the wrists of the grabbing arm if you don't " wiggle/drop " the elbow ? Chi-na drops the elbow but holds the grabbing hand so it is a submission hold.
can you give a time stamp in WSL clip where you interpret the move as a wrist grab release, I suspect that you and Joy may be talking at cross purposes

[Ali. R]

Still waiting .....


No disrespect to you whatsoever.

I think, I like the way you asked, so continue to please wait for just a while. Now I know what I’m dealing with.

The first rule of thumb as a ‘sifu’ is to know what each form develops or represents. What I’d just said is a no brainer for a “wing chun instructor” that has developed through the forms/ knowledge thereof.

I thought you were a wing chun instructor (sifu) and was trained by one that would let you know the difference of the forms, I’ll take it as you’re just playing around and will move on from here.


Take care,

[Grumblegeezer]

@Joy, BPWT and any TST lineage guys on here. As Joy noted, in the opening "finger-wagging" movements after the punch, TST, LT and some others keep the arm, elbow and wrist stationary while moving the hand and fingers. WSL and others keep the fingertips focused on a point and move the wrist, elbow and arm up and down, side to side and so on. The PB/WSL guys are never shy about discussing their perspective.

But, clearly, you guys (TST, LT and HKM guys) see a value, either in training attributes or in application, to keeping the arm stationary. Please share from your perspective.

[Graham H]

The first three forms are all training forms and the last three forms are all application forms.


Take care,

In your world perhaps. Not in mine

[Ali. R]

In your world perhaps. Not in mine

That’s ok, because wing chun is a very small world, that truly houses her principles, concepts, and developments on a very small island of understanding. But yet, could be explored and developed within the physical realm of her forms.

And I’m 100% positive it’s in the world of other certified instructors of the Yip Man Wing Chun lineage.


Take care,

[k gledhill]

That’s ok, because wing chun is a very small world, that truly houses her principles, concepts, and developments on a very small island of understanding. But yet, could be explored and developed within the physical realm of her forms.

And I’m 100% positive it’s in the world of other certified instructors of the Yip Man Wing Chun lineage.


Take care,

I think we all see your response for what it is. Empty.

[Ali. R]

I think we all see your response for what it is. Empty.


From the very same reasons that you quoted, that’s much understood. Again, I have no ill feelings towards you whatsoever.


Take care,

[k gledhill]

:confused: Let's move on then.

[Ali. R]

:confused: Let's move on then.


I’ve never stopped.


Take care,

[k gledhill]

Ok then ....

[Vajramusti]

Joy , silent ?
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I have a life aside from this forum!!

[k gledhill]

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I have a life aside from this forum!!

A likely story :rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

can you give a time stamp in WSL clip where you interpret the move as a wrist grab release, I suspect that you and Joy may be talking at cross purposes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian- for sure we are.

----------------------------------
Kevin asked:Joy how do you apply pressure to the wrists of the grabbing arm if you don't " wiggle/drop " the elbow ? Chi-na drops the elbow but holds the grabbing hand so it is a submission hold.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joy's response_ Motions in the forms develop key attributes Motions are not always techniques-
though techniques can be operationally derived from motions in the forms.

There are numerous ways to handle a wrist grab and yes the elbow is involved in most wing chun hand techniques,

The movement of the elbows up and down are already developed in slt and chum kiu Biu jee proceeds to develop additional attributes.

The first motion after the punch in biu jee is not an isolated technique. It develops some key attributes including-snapping the palms and fingers explosively at the wrist.

Wiggling the elbow at that stage disperses the power development of the wrist and the fingers.
The elbow wiggling may however satisfy Hendrik's call for the snake!

It is better in a curriculum to build skill upon skill-rather than assuming that wing chun is only a grab bag of techniques.

[Happy Tiger]

Glad to be getting more of the why and why not,rather than the do or do not.Starting to get good intel now.

[poulperadieux]

The first three forms are all training forms and the last three forms are all application forms.


Take care,

yeap !

but not in PB students world, as in Wing Tsun World.

They work more or less the same ideas these times.

[EternalSpring]

I train the Biu Jee without using the more snakelike-emphasized movements after the first punches, however I've been taught to apply the technique using that type of movement. At least from my experience, although the arm may look straight, there is still movement throughout the arm (though it may be subtle).

[BPWT]

@Joy, BPWT and any TST lineage guys on here. As Joy noted, in the opening "finger-wagging" movements after the punch, TST, LT and some others keep the arm, elbow and wrist stationary while moving the hand and fingers. WSL and others keep the fingertips focused on a point and move the wrist, elbow and arm up and down, side to side and so on. The PB/WSL guys are never shy about discussing their perspective. But, clearly, you guys (TST, LT and HKM guys) see a value, either in training attributes or in application, to keeping the arm stationary. Please share from your perspective.

For us, it is mostly about training attributes (though of course there are some possible applications to the movements too).

These movements in BT are, in some ways, an extension/add on to the huen sau movement we have after the punches, etc, in SNT and CK. The aim of what we're doing here in BT is to work the same things but to a greater degree.

Namely, to really work/stretch the ligaments and tendons - so for us it is important to keep the elbow firmly in place. You could move the elbow, of course, but then you wouldn't be working these things quite as much.

This focus on the joints, ligaments and tendons is to help develop the extending force that is needed for many of the attacks in BT, coupled with the body methods (particular to this form) that go with them. Lots of WT training helps develop this extending force, but these early movements in the BT form focus on it very specifically.

In the BT clip I posted earlier in this thread you can get an idea of this. The person performing BT (Robin Tsang) has great relaxation, but good force too (extending force, flexible force, vibrating force, etc, all much of the same and connected).

Leung Ting talks about how this form issues force 'through the fingers'. Not to the fingers, but out through them - and that probably sums it up better than I can ;)

[Graham H]

For us, it is mostly about training attributes (though of course there are some possible applications to the movements too).

These movements in BT are, in some ways, an extension/add on to the huen sau movement we have after the punches, etc, in SNT and CK. The aim of what we're doing here in BT is to work the same things but to a greater degree.

Namely, to really work/stretch the ligaments and tendons - so for us it is important to keep the elbow firmly in place. You could move the elbow, of course, but then you wouldn't be working these things quite as much.

This focus on the joints, ligaments and tendons is to help develop the extending force that is needed for many of the attacks in BT, coupled with the body methods (particular to this form) that go with them. Lots of WT training helps develop this extending force, but these early movements in the BT form focus on it very specifically.

In the BT clip I posted earlier in this thread you can get an idea of this. The person performing BT (Robin Tsang) has great relaxation, but good force too (extending force, flexible force, vibrating force, etc, all much of the same and connected).

Leung Ting talks about how this form issues force 'through the fingers'. Not to the fingers, but out through them - and that probably sums it up better than I can ;)

These are the things that LTWT teaches in BJ....An extension of huen sau? Extending force? Vibrating force? Issuing force through the fingers?

In the words of John McEnroe...."You cannot be serious!" :D

[Hendrik]

The kuen kuit of 1850 says

Nine turning of The spine (of the fying snake )indicate the penetration of force flow.


Shoulder blade is the tail, Finger is the teeth, hand is the head, elbow is the body.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjtzdNkkfqY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmQJNwp7pSE
I am interested in the groups opinions reguarding the biu sau opening sequence of the biu jee form. In particular, the movement (or lack of) of the elbow relitive to the body. In my opinion, this is one of the biggest fundemental differences in biu jee and if I understand structure, makes a big difference to over all body mechanics of the form...or not. What do you think?

[Paul T England]

you can do it either way in my opinion, the WSL method makes more sense from an application viewpoint but I like both ways.

It does not really matter what people say, everyone applies wing chun based on their mind. Ip Man seemed happy with this as all his students are different.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[k gledhill]

you can do it either way in my opinion, the WSL method makes more sense from an application viewpoint but I like both ways.

It does not really matter what people say, everyone applies wing chun based on their mind. Ip Man seemed happy with this as all his students are different.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

What ? Thanks

[YouKnowWho]

Ip Man seemed happy with this as all his students are different.

Dragon has 9 sons. They all look different. One of them is a turtle.

[Grumblegeezer]

BPWT Thanks for your response. It is in accord with what I learned, and also seems pretty close to what Joy stated in the quote immediately below yours. You said:


...to really work/stretch the ligaments and tendons - so for us it is important to keep the elbow firmly in place. You could move the elbow, of course, but then you wouldn't be working these things quite as much.

This focus on the joints, ligaments and tendons is to help develop the extending force that is needed for many of the attacks in BT, coupled with the body methods (particular to this form) that go with them. Lots of WT training helps develop this extending force, but these early movements in the BT form focus on it very specifically.

Joy put it this way:


The first motion after the punch in biu jee is not an isolated technique. It develops some key attributes including-snapping the palms and fingers explosively at the wrist.

Wiggling the elbow at that stage disperses the power development of the wrist and the fingers.
The elbow wiggling may however satisfy Hendrik's call for the snake! It is better in a curriculum to build skill upon skill-rather than assuming that wing chun is only a grab bag of techniques.

BPWT, I also remember LT making statements such as the one you referenced below:


...Leung Ting talks about how this form issues force 'through the fingers'.

Actually, I'm not surprised that Graham questioned your seriousness. For one thing, he doesn't seem very open minded. But beyond that, I can see how some of the terms like "vibrating force" could elicit this response if taken out of context. By themselves, these terms sound like so much mystical hokum. To my understanding this is not at all what was intended.

In my experience (many years ago) LT never resorted to the esoteric or mystical when explaining this stuff to us. When he talked to us about "extending force through the fingers" he made it clear that he was speaking of a simple physical phenomenon, which he compared to snapping a whip or wet towel, or the whipping action of the tip of a thin rattan cane. The tip of a whip or cane may be even more delicate than human fingers, yet can cut and seriously damage what it strikes. This is due to the energy being concentrated at the very tip of the object and being released into what it strikes. All of the forms, but especially Biu Tze, train this ability to focus and release your energy into your target.

[BPWT]

These are the things that LTWT teaches in BJ....An extension of huen sau? Extending force? Vibrating force? Issuing force through the fingers? In the words of John McEnroe...."You cannot be serious!" :D

@ Graham: I figured I didn't have to explain what was literal and what wasn't, or did you really, genuinely not understand what I was saying?

If I wasn't being clear.... When I say 'extension of huen sau' I am of course not meaning a literal extension (that is to say, huen sau made longer, LOL). I mean that huen sau as a technique or a motion has applications, but that it also (the way we do it in WT) has an affect within the forms - it is specifically helping you with tendon work, for example. Which is why the way you perform it, and how you use/position the elbow is so important. In BT, this is worked to a greater degree after the initial punch.

But share a little, Graham :)

Does your VT not include such tendon/ligament work?

Regarding extending force, vibrating force, etc, like I was saying... different words for essentially the same thing. Grumblegeezer summed it up nicely.

Does your VT have exactly the same force generation methods in BT as is found in your CK?

I'm not sure if, as Grumblegeezer suggests, maybe you are not really open minded - or if you simply train in a way that doesn't work with these things. Not that it matters, I guess. If you are closed minded - okay. If your VT doesn't have certain things - that's okay with me too. :)

@Grumblegeezer

Absolutely, there's nothing esoteric and mystical about anything I've been taught in the LT system. Body mechanics and body methods that result in an effect - if you train them long and hard (it's Kung Fu, after all ;)).

Of course, it is easy to say 'extending force' - which some might think sounds mystical but is a concise two words - than to spend 30 minutes rushing through the ideas in BT that include the use of the torso, utilizing seven joints, tendon work, spiral motions, special emphasis on... etc etc etc. :D

[Happy Tiger]

Some houses do both ways in their BJ. I'm goin through my records to find one or two examples. This is getting juicy.

[Paddington]

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Ian- for sure we are.

----------------------------------
Kevin asked:Joy how do you apply pressure to the wrists of the grabbing arm if you don't " wiggle/drop " the elbow ? Chi-na drops the elbow but holds the grabbing hand so it is a submission hold.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joy's response_ Motions in the forms develop key attributes Motions are not always techniques-
though techniques can be operationally derived from motions in the forms.

There are numerous ways to handle a wrist grab and yes the elbow is involved in most wing chun hand techniques,

The movement of the elbows up and down are already developed in slt and chum kiu Biu jee proceeds to develop additional attributes.

The first motion after the punch in biu jee is not an isolated technique. It develops some key attributes including-snapping the palms and fingers explosively at the wrist.

Wiggling the elbow at that stage disperses the power development of the wrist and the fingers.
The elbow wiggling may however satisfy Hendrik's call for the snake!

It is better in a curriculum to build skill upon skill-rather than assuming that wing chun is only a grab bag of techniques.

I really wish you would post extended explanations like this more often!

[Happy Tiger]

Some houses do both ways in their BJ. I'm goin through my records to find one or two examples. This is getting juicy.
At the Second World VT confrence master Siu Yuk Men demo'd BJ with both methods of biu sau .

[Vajramusti]

At the Second World VT confrence master Siu Yuk Men demo'd BJ with both methods of biu sau .
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suggest care in dealing with "proof by authority"-one of the questionable "proofs".
Siu Yuk Men has been around the block but so has lots of other folks.

IMO-You can wiggle whatever you want to loosen up. But for practicing an action it helps to
know what the specific intent of the action is.

[Ali. R]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suggest care in dealing with "proof by authority"-one of the questionable "proofs".
Siu Yuk Men has been around the block but so has lots of other folks.

IMO-You can wiggle whatever you want to loosen up. But for practicing an action it helps to know what the specific intent of the action is.


Amen brother, here comes the Judge (http://youtu.be/3hIcKkKID8k)!

[Happy Tiger]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suggest care in dealing with "proof by authority"-one of the questionable "proofs".
Siu Yuk Men has been around the block but so has lots of other folks.

IMO-You can wiggle whatever you want to loosen up. But for practicing an action it helps to
know what the specific intent of the action is.
I know what I was taught. Interested on what others were also. As to master Siu Yuk Men, Im just sharing what I saw. >bows<

[Vajramusti]

I know what I was taught. Interested on what others were also. As to master Siu Yuk Men, Im just sharing what I saw. >bows<
-----------------------------------------------------------

ok

[Happy Tiger]

Amen brother, here comes the Judge (http://youtu.be/3hIcKkKID8k)!
:D:D:D:cool:

[trubblman]

Hahaaa .Yeah,a bit bit of a hicough there but I don't hold it against him , though.I was told once that after absorbing BJ it wasn't wise to practice the form too often as it can play havoc with your qi balance and emotional state. Any one else hear that Caution?

Stuff and nonsense.

[Happy Tiger]

Stuff and nonsense.that seems to be the popular vote on that one.

[Happy Tiger]

another application I was taught was a kind of 'chuen sau' or threading hand technique . Depending on your footwork or body shift would dictate the action of the elbow.One hand controls two.

[Vajramusti]

that seems to be the popular vote on that one.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

This is an election?

[Graham H]

@ Graham: I figured I didn't have to explain what was literal and what wasn't, or did you really, genuinely not understand what I was saying?

If I wasn't being clear.... When I say 'extension of huen sau' I am of course not meaning a literal extension (that is to say, huen sau made longer, LOL). I mean that huen sau as a technique or a motion has applications, but that it also (the way we do it in WT) has an affect within the forms - it is specifically helping you with tendon work, for example. Which is why the way you perform it, and how you use/position the elbow is so important. In BT, this is worked to a greater degree after the initial punch.

But share a little, Graham :)

Does your VT not include such tendon/ligament work?

Regarding extending force, vibrating force, etc, like I was saying... different words for essentially the same thing. Grumblegeezer summed it up nicely.

Does your VT have exactly the same force generation methods in BT as is found in your CK?

I'm not sure if, as Grumblegeezer suggests, maybe you are not really open minded - or if you simply train in a way that doesn't work with these things. Not that it matters, I guess. If you are closed minded - okay. If your VT doesn't have certain things - that's okay with me too. :)

@Grumblegeezer

Absolutely, there's nothing esoteric and mystical about anything I've been taught in the LT system. Body mechanics and body methods that result in an effect - if you train them long and hard (it's Kung Fu, after all ;)).

Of course, it is easy to say 'extending force' - which some might think sounds mystical but is a concise two words - than to spend 30 minutes rushing through the ideas in BT that include the use of the torso, utilizing seven joints, tendon work, spiral motions, special emphasis on... etc etc etc. :D

My VT consists of sound proven fighting methods. Either that or my Sigung invented some rubbish for a laugh. Your Sigung has made his up from lack of knowledge. It's a fact often shared by his EX students that have left his cult due to his weird ways. Even 12th level technicians that were threatened if they revealed what goes on there. To be honest I'm not surprised you have ligament work. Your leader is a freak. You seem like an intelligent guy and I'm surprised you fall for it.

Feel free to scald me below. :D

[Graham H]

FWIW my BJ consists of ideas that can be used if the **** hits the fan. I don't need vibrating force to show me where the door is. You dig? :)

[Graham H]

another application I was taught was a kind of 'chuen sau' or threading hand technique . Depending on your footwork or body shift would dictate the action of the elbow.One hand controls two.

Chuen Sau is a punch

[Happy Tiger]

Chuen Sau is a punch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVgO5S8Zm_Q

[Grumblegeezer]

My VT consists of sound proven fighting methods ...Your Sigung has made his up from lack of knowledge. It's a fact often shared by his EX students that have left his cult due to his weird ways. Even 12th level technicians that were threatened if they revealed what goes on there ...Your leader is a freak.

@BPWT: When he says "your leader" I assume Graham is referring to LT and all his students, and not Norbert Maday or the EEWTO in particular. I have no idea what he means by "12th level technicians". As you know, in LT's ranking system there are 12 lower "student" grades, then four "technician" grades and continuing through the master levels or "practician" grades, beginning with 5th level, with the highest ever awarded to an instructor being 10th, as far as I am aware.

If his point is that some high ranked students have left the fold, that's quite true. The group I train with includes some of these. But we all continue to respect the core of the WT system and what LT shared with us, especially in the early days. I'm saying this to just set the record straight from my perspective. I have no interest in engaging in arguments with people who are obviously trolling.

[BPWT]

My VT consists of sound proven fighting methods. Either that or my Sigung invented some rubbish for a laugh. Your Sigung has made his up from lack of knowledge. It's a fact often shared by his EX students that have left his cult due to his weird ways. Even 12th level technicians that were threatened if they revealed what goes on there. To be honest I'm not surprised you have ligament work. Your leader is a freak. You seem like an intelligent guy and I'm surprised you fall for it. Feel free to scald me below. :D

No need to scald you - especially as you are a little ill-informed. ;)

Regarding 'proven fighting methods': me too. I am absolutely exhausted having just got back from a two-day seminar. The first day was run by Gabor Szell (7th level practitioner in our system) - he teaches close-quarter combat (including knife work) to the Hungarian and Latvian military and special forces.

He knows a thing or two about 'proven methods' as he's taught people that need to use these skills in very real circumstances.

Regarding 'your Sigung has made his up from lack of knowledge': I know people who have left Leung Ting's organization over the years - often for political reasons, sadly. I know no one who has claimed he 'lacked knowledge'.

Regarding 'even 12th level technicians...': There is no such grade/classification to the best of my knowledge. There are 12 student grades, then four technician grades, then four practition grades, and so on. My Sifu is 9th level, and so in Europe is the highest ranked person other than Keith Kernspecht. So I don't know who you mean when you say '12th level technicians' :confused:

Regarding 'To be honest I'm not surprised you have ligament work. Your leader is a freak': Many of the things I learn I hadn't learned in a previous lineage. If you didn't learn it in your Yip Chun lineage, or from Clive Potter or from PB, I understand...

Absence of evidence (in your lineage) is not an indication of evidence of absence (in other lineages).

And he is not my 'leader'. :D He's not an alien, or Gary Glitter :eek:

Regarding 'You seem like an intelligent guy and I'm surprised you fall for it': Well thanks, I hope I am not too stupid. :) But I haven't fallen for anything... I have felt the things I talk about.

But really, it's all good - I have no problem chatting with you, even if we disagree on things. What I've learned from this conversation is that:

1) You don't do any work in PB VT that works the tendons.
2) Your BT form doesn't not put emphasis on developing different power generation methods than those you develop in CK.

In our forms, and I think probably in yours too, there are many, many huen saus. Why, in your method, do you have so many?

Yip Man originally taught these 'wiggling fingers/hands' in each of the three hand forms. They also appear in all the hand forms in many non-Yip Man lineage lines of Wing Chun. Why do you think that is? ;)

[BPWT]

@Grumblegeezer.

Ah, you wrote and posted as I was writing too. :) Yes, I keep giving Graham the benefit of the doubt (we are both Brits, after all, so he can't be all bad ;)), but it is beginning to seem like he is trolling - especially with the name calling.

Maybe... some of Clive Potter's teaching have stayed with Graham... :eek:

C'mon Graham, you are better than the name calling and trolling - why not post in a constructive way?

[Hendrik]

Great clip!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVgO5S8Zm_Q

[Happy Tiger]

Great clip!Yes indeed.I've always liked sifu Redmond's clips for clear example. Thanks , Hendrik.

[k gledhill]

Terminology separates us but actions aren't that dissimilar ; )

[Happy Tiger]

Terminology separates us but actions aren't that dissimilar ; )
Yes,it's true.Too bad something as powerfull as words/terms seem to separate us rather than bring us together....the curse of Babal, I suppose.

[Vajramusti]

Yes,it's true.Too bad something as powerfull as words/terms seem to separate us rather than bring us together....the curse of babal I suppose.
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Babel too!

But then I am not in the Judeo Christian tradition and possibly immune to many of it's curses

[Happy Tiger]

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Babel too!

But then I am not in the Judeo Christian tradition and possibly immune to many of it's curses
Did you just correct me on my spelling? And you suggest you are immune???
p.s. I hate spell check

[Vajramusti]

Did you just correct me on my spelling? And you suggest you are immune???
p.s. I hate spell check
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You are not alone!!

[Happy Tiger]

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You are not alone!!
I am only a bum from the street that was fortunate enough to be given the gift of VT. If luck holds out and God willing, I will never be anything more.

[Vajramusti]

I am only a bum from the street that was fortunate enough to be given the gift of VT. If luck holds out and God willing, I will never be anything more.
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I am confident you will be ok.Good wishes.

[Grumblegeezer]

Babel schmabel. It's the curse of the Gwai-lo! And no, Joy is not immune even if, like most educated Indians, he's a poliglot. Heck, even native Cantonese speakers argue over WC terminology.

...so what can you do? Let's blame the French! I have already have one in mind. ;)

[Vajramusti]

Babel schmabel. It's the curse of the Gwai-lo! And no, Joy is not immune even if, like most educated Indians, he's a poliglot. Heck, even native Cantonese speakers argue over WC terminology.

...so what can you do? Let's blame the French! I have already have one in mind. ;)
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(VBG)
IMO- when Ip man taught himself- he corrected the action and movement rather than
having people memorize names for motions IMO(of course).

Also it's the written Chinese that provides some uniformity. Spoken Chinese can vary-not just Mandarin v Cantonese but from area to area- Foshan, Toishan etc and then based on education,
class and other demographic variables.


But then there is so called English--when a friendly east Texan female says "Have a good "die" "
she is not necessarily wishing you a good death... unless you are completely from the wrong lineage<g> That of course could happen!

[k gledhill]

I am only a bum from the street that was fortunate enough to be given the gift of VT. If luck holds out and God willing, I will never be anything more.

Sounds good to me.

[LoneTiger108]

Also it's the written Chinese that provides some uniformity. Spoken Chinese can vary-not just Mandarin v Cantonese but from area to area- Foshan, Toishan etc and then based on education,
class and other demographic variables.


Well, there it is.

And to think, this is something that has been said my myself and many others for so long now I still wonder how people even think they learn this stuff... are we all just physical photocopiers or do we want to know the actual content of what it is we have been playing with for so long?

[Vajramusti]

Well, there it is.

And to think, this is something that has been said my myself and many others for so long now I still wonder how people even think they learn this stuff... are we all just physical photocopiers or do we want to know the actual content of what it is we have been playing with for so long?
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A common example of differences in names for motions. In our sil lim tao there is "Fun sao"(separating hands- two hands going in opposite directions. Apparently others call it fak sao.
To me fak sao is a whisking, kind of motion where you suddenly sweep away something. So fak sao term appears in my biu jee.

[wingchunIan]

--------------------------------------------
A common example of differences in names for motions. In our sil lim tao there is "Fun sao"(separating hands- two hands going in opposite directions. Apparently others call it fak sao.
To me fak sao is a whisking, kind of motion where you suddenly sweep away something. So fak sao term appears in my biu jee.

labels are labels nothing more...
if people have to rely on the names of techniques / shapes, or their pronunciation, chinese characters etc to know how to perform them or apply them then they need to get better instruction. :(

[k gledhill]

--------------------------------------------
A common example of differences in names for motions. In our sil lim tao there is "Fun sao"(separating hands- two hands going in opposite directions. Apparently others call it fak sao.
To me fak sao is a whisking, kind of motion where you suddenly sweep away something. So fak sao term appears in my biu jee.

At a seminar in Belgium i was assisting V Kan, a student of Wong Kiu asked V Kan what Cantonese term meant in slt at a point after double fac sao, V Kan responded that it just meant " bring the arms back after fac sao" ; ) , opposite of Joy.... The student seemed disappointed to discover it was just a direction of sequence rather than hidden application.

[Hendrik]

In ancient perspective

Fak sau or whisking hand is a tehnic using the back of the palm side .
Bin sau or whip hand is a technic using the side of the palm similar to knive hand.

Today,

Most people are doing bin sau as fak sau.





--------------------------------------------
A common example of differences in names for motions. In our sil lim tao there is "Fun sao"(separating hands- two hands going in opposite directions. Apparently others call it fak sao.
To me fak sao is a whisking, kind of motion where you suddenly sweep away something. So fak sao term appears in my biu jee.

[LoneTiger108]

labels are labels nothing more...
if people have to rely on the names of techniques / shapes, or their pronunciation, chinese characters etc to know how to perform them or apply them then they need to get better instruction. :(

I would say the same for anyone who can just respond in Chisau exercises to specific drills and sansau without knowing what's what... the body may learn but the mind must be nourished, or you should not be teaching.

This goes for those who learnt directly from Ip Man too, funnily enough...

[Vajramusti]

I would say the same for anyone who can just respond in Chisau exercises to specific drills and sansau without knowing what's what... the body may learn but the mind must be nourished, or you should not be teaching.

This goes for those who learnt directly from Ip Man too, funnily enough...
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IMO
A label just helps identify a motion to people who use the same labels.- it does not necessarily inform everyone spontaneously the meaning of a motion. The hands on correction of competent teachers gives the more reliable meanings.

[Vajramusti]

At a seminar in Belgium i was assisting V Kan, a student of Wong Kiu asked V Kan what Cantonese term meant in slt at a point after double fac sao, V Kan responded that it just meant " bring the arms back after fac sao" ; ) , opposite of Joy.... The student seemed disappointed to discover it was just a direction of sequence rather than hidden application.
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Kevin, you misunderstood what I was saying, and pointless to correct the misunderstanding.
No point in debating labels.

[k gledhill]

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Kevin, you misunderstood what I was saying, and pointless to correct the misunderstanding.
No point in debating labels.

You're misunderstanding me. Funny that. ; )

[wingchunIan]

I would say the same for anyone who can just respond in Chisau exercises to specific drills and sansau without knowing what's what... the body may learn but the mind must be nourished, or you should not be teaching.

This goes for those who learnt directly from Ip Man too, funnily enough...

IMO Spencer, it is more important for a teacher to be able to explain what is done, how its done and why its done using language that the students learning can understand, combined with demonstration, than to know what label is the correct one to hang on something. To use your example, if a teacher can explain what they are doing in Chi sao using terms that make sense to their students then the students will be in a far better place than if they are simply told all of Chinese labels for each shape and action. Wing chun is a martial art not poetry writing, its what you do that matters not what you call it.

[LoneTiger108]

To use your example, if a teacher can explain what they are doing in Chi sao using terms that make sense to their students then the students will be in a far better place than if they are simply told all of Chinese labels for each shape and action.

I couldn't agree more Ian. We teach in English, and as much as we can all drivel on there is a certain amount of freedom we all must have to explaining the Whys? and Hows? The Chinese do exactly the same.

But we are talking about 'Form' here, and as far as I am aware everything does have it's 'label' as you call it, albeit this this not the way I would prefer to teach either at the beginning. But it's a fact. Glossaries are everywhere and vary enormously, so as long as you have what you have in your lineage then that's all cool.


Wing chun is a martial art not poetry writing, its what you do that matters not what you call it.

I have to disagree! ;)

This will depend totally on how you have been taught, from my experience. Some have an emphasis on the language and will treat it as a labelling 'code' if you like, whereas some have whole sentences and some have all the principles and theories too, which can be very poetic!

To give an example, Loi Lau Hoi Song - Lut Sau Jik Chung.

It rhythms. It is only one line of many lines (that I have never seen anyone disclose) and it really DOES matter how you translate and apply it!

But I'm rambling, because I really do enjoy yapping about the language and cultural heritage of our Art so forgive me...

[Vajramusti]

IMO Spencer, it is more important for a teacher to be able to explain what is done, how its done and why its done using language that the students learning can understand, combined with demonstration, than to know what label is the correct one to hang on something. To use your example, if a teacher can explain what they are doing in Chi sao using terms that make sense to their students then the students will be in a far better place than if they are simply told all of Chinese labels for each shape and action. Wing chun is a martial art not poetry writing, its what you do that matters not what you call it.
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FWIW- I take a middle of the road position. Of course there is nothing like a teacher's explanation
of the details of the motion but adding a Chinese label results in a quick recollection in different and multiple contexts rather than creating a new label.
When I was learning English and planes were still fairly new-I was not told to call them "uro-jahaj"=a ship that flies. So even in speaking bengali-air plane was fine.Words do get absorbed into languages and the
Judokas, karatekas , yogis use their consistent labels for postures and motions.
In wing chun there are some difficulties because so many diverse lineages add their own terms to some things... but bong, tan, fuuk, kuen, gerk, ma, biu, etc are fairly common terms at least in the Ip Man variations. and allowa us to discuss the differences in their use and practice.

[LoneTiger108]

FWIW- I take a middle of the road position. Of course there is nothing like a teacher's explanation
of the details of the motion but adding a Chinese label results in a quick recollection in different and multiple contexts rather than creating a new label.
When I was learning English and planes were still fairly new-I was not told to call them "uro-jahaj"=a ship that flies. So even in speaking bengali-air plane was fine.Words do get absorbed into languages and the
Judokas, karatekas , yogis use their consistent labels for postures and motions.
In wing chun there are some difficulties because so many diverse lineages add their own terms to some things... but bong, tan, fuuk, kuen, gerk, ma, biu, etc are fairly common terms at least in the Ip Man variations. and allowa us to discuss the differences in their use and practice.

Beautifully said Joy... I couldn't agree more.