Choy Lee Fut Gam Jin

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8w59rQIqvM

as we use the english terminology within our school, we call the technique on the video "Cross block". In my opinion its a decent technique. but a little dangerous...ok a lot dangerous. i say that because both hands are applied to one small area while leaving a huge open door to be knocked out.

for me its dangerous for any position when you use both hands in a certain area. still, i would use it for a low block but with the expectation for a punch to my face and would have an answer for that in advance. there, you see the guy use to hands to block an uppercut. personally, i only use one hand for that situation. i would even jam it or scoop it.

Sifu would say "is that safe?". what he meant was is it safe or could someone easily counter it and strike you instead. some of the same principals from our knife fighting i use for empty hands as well.

what about you?

[jdhowland]

I would say that it is not so much a block as a move that transitions immediately into kam na. It can be (relatively) safe if you apply the right footwork and body shifting. I didn't listen to the audio in the above example and don't know what I missed but in our school we primarily train it with the left hand on top.

Can you guess why?

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[Snipsky]

Can you guess why?

i can come up with a couple....but lets hear yours.

[hskwarrior]

nah, but i wanna hear your reasons tho.

[Bernard]

The technique seems to have more value in weapons work and not so much empty hand IMO.

[jdhowland]

The technique seems to have more value in weapons work and not so much empty hand IMO.

That's it.

CLF is primarily a right-handed system because it assumes the greater likelihood of an opponent with a weapon in his right hand.

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[hskwarrior]

i originally wrote down what you just said but decided against it. yes, CLF is typically right hand favored. but in my school i require them to be equally good on the right as the left.

[jdhowland]

i originally wrote down what you just said but decided against it. yes, CLF is typically right hand favored. but in my school i require them to be equally good on the right as the left.

Yeah, my sifu said we should try to learn the techniques for the most probable situations first and later go back and try them on the other side. For example, our style only does butterfly palm on the right side because it is an outside (small door) technique and a weapon is likely to be in your opponent's right hand. Against a left hand we don't even try it. Takes too much training time. We substitute a low brush hand/waving cloud hand to enter his left side.

[hskwarrior]

For example, our style only does butterfly palm on the right side because it is an outside (small door) technique and a weapon is likely to be in your opponent's right hand.

oh really? fut san lineages do both left and right side butterfly palms. its found first in our Che Kuen form.

does your school use it as a trapping move or deflection? for us, we lock down tight on a limb.

[Ben Gash]

I think it depends at what range you use it. At long range it's pretty dicey but at contact range it's similar to push hands movements, or of course a cross collar choke.

[Bernard]

I think it depends at what range you use it. At long range it's pretty dicey but at contact range it's similar to push hands movements, or of course a cross collar choke.

I agree with this. My time in aikido taught me to apply such techniques in a preemptive manner. Like when the attacker is raising his weapon to a chopping position for example. Much easier.

[jdhowland]

oh really? fut san lineages do both left and right side butterfly palms. its found first in our Che Kuen form.

does your school use it as a trapping move or deflection? for us, we lock down tight on a limb.

We think of it as an arm lock. If it fails you can follow the arm to apply a bent elbow lock or just separate the butterfly wings to attack the head with tok jeung. I like to say that we don't plan for a technique to work, we "plan to fail" so students aren't stuck in one of those "oh, s--t!" moments.

Ex.: Thrust with a "knife" and let your partner work the dihp jeung until he can capture your arm a good percentage of the time. Then start bending your elbow as soon as you feel the lock coming on. Then make it more challenging by trying to pass your weapon to the other hand before he can finish the butterfly.

About thirty years ago I started feeling competent enough to follow sifu's advice and begin reversing sets and techniques. I still can't get the left-hand dihp jeung to work well against resistance. It's okay, though. The follow-ups are built nicely into the system, don't you think?

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[jdhowland]

I think it depends at what range you use it. At long range it's pretty dicey but at contact range it's similar to push hands movements, or of course a cross collar choke.

Collar choke, clinch, headlock, outward elbow wrench,...

Multiplicity of applications for a few simple ideas is one of the things that makes CLF a good system.

Agree with the similarity to some push hand ideas. Find the elbow and you know what to do.

[hskwarrior]

"oh, s--t!" moments.

that's funny. i thought i was the only one who focused on "Oh sh1t moments".
i feel its important to have an arsenal of "oh ****" responses.


Ex.: Thrust with a "knife" and let your partner work the dihp jeung until he can capture your arm a good percentage of the time. Then start bending your elbow as soon as you feel the lock coming on. Then make it more challenging by trying to pass your weapon to the other hand before he can finish the butterfly.


NICE!


About thirty years ago I started feeling competent enough to follow sifu's advice and begin reversing sets and techniques. I still can't get the left-hand dihp jeung to work well against resistance. It's okay, though. The follow-ups are built nicely into the system, don't you think?

yup. personally i would only use the butterfly hands to trap just for a moment, never hold it there for too long. sifu taught us long ago that when a struggle takes place while trapping, end it. let go. it only becomes a game of strength. when we tried it out, he was right.

Even 30 plus years later i am still amazed at the SCIENCE of CLF. Yes, the follow ups are great and we have more than one to rely on.


Collar choke, clinch, headlock, outward elbow wrench,...

Multiplicity of applications for a few simple ideas is one of the things that makes CLF a good system.

Agree with the similarity to some push hand ideas. Find the elbow and you know what to do.

yup. sifu always said "here is one way to use it, now come back next week and show me five more uses for same technique. and much of what we do is also good for the ring. i love saying "oh we have that in our CLF, we just do it a little differently"

[hskwarrior]

The downward Gam Jin or Cross Block as we term it, what is your opinions on it for blocking a low frontal kick? would you use it? do you believe it to be effective against a strong kicker?

personally, i wouldn't use it for a low block for a couple of reasons. first, you don't know how experienced or conditioned another fighter is and i feel it can be a dangerous move to stop of low kick. for me, i'd just use my legs to stop it.

the other reason is not safe is of course the huge open door for your opponent to knock you out. In the Lau Bun Hung Sing Cheung Kuen form we do use it to block a low kick but its followed up with the flower block for a punch to your face, followed by a kick and chop choy..

[Bernard]

The downward Gam Jin or Cross Block as we term it, what is your opinions on it for blocking a low frontal kick? would you use it? do you believe it to be effective against a strong kicker?

personally, i wouldn't use it for a low block for a couple of reasons. first, you don't know how experienced or conditioned another fighter is and i feel it can be a dangerous move to stop of low kick. for me, i'd just use my legs to stop it.

the other reason is not safe is of course the huge open door for your opponent to knock you out. In the Lau Bun Hung Sing Cheung Kuen form we do use it to block a low kick but its followed up with the flower block for a punch to your face, followed by a kick and chop choy..

You know, the Gam Jin reminds me of the kind of blocks used in butterfly swords usage. What if empty hand practice was really meant to represent weapons usage. I'm not much of a historian but wasn't there a weapons ban in Chinese history?

[hskwarrior]

What if empty hand practice was really meant to represent weapons usage.

we've always stood by the idea of take the weapon out of their hands and you have a hidden hand form and vice versa.

not sure about a weapons ban though.

[Ben Gash]

If you catch their wrist on you shoulder and drive down into Gum Jin over their upper arm/shoulder, it's a fairly quick and efficient arm lock.

[Snipsky]

If you catch their wrist on you shoulder and drive down into Gum Jin over their upper arm/shoulder, it's a fairly quick and efficient arm lock.


yup yup................