Gaun sau

[Hendrik]

Any one knows any YouTube Clip on instruction how to use gaun sau ?

[k gledhill]

What do you want to know ?

[desertwingchun2]

My wish would be for you to show "Gone" sau for good sau.

[Vajramusti]

Any one knows any YouTube Clip on instruction how to use gaun sau ?

______________________-----------

For development or for applications of which there are many.
I dont watch you tube much.

[JPinAZ]

I'm sure it was a loaded question BUT - Henrik, are you still trying to learn your kung fu from videos?? Get a good sifu to show you and some good training partners to practice with - it's the only real way you're going to learn...


My wish would be for you to show "Gone" sau for good sau.

hahaha, too funny

[Hendrik]

Intesting technic which comes with lots of verity in different lineages.

Want to share your wsl lineage view ?



What do you want to know ?

[Hendrik]

Joy,

Both development and applications.



______________________-----------

For development or for applications of which there are many.
I dont watch you tube much.

[Vajramusti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foAAVQKvhtA

some unknown person whose narration I do not understand put up the video of Fong sifu doing the slt a long time ago.
Gan sao is at 2.56

The gan is also there in biu jee as gan/jum and in the jong as a section with gan combined with kuen. There is also gan do with the bjd.

Good Ip man wing chun usually involves cooperation with both hands- so there is always something else balanced with the gan.

You can also see Ho Kam Ming's later protege Lui Ming Fai with the gan in the forms and the knives.

The gan can be practiced with the rich variety of footwork that we use.

The gan is usually used for the lower gates. For development the arm cam be straight for learning how to release energy. In application it is bent as a precaution against arm bars.
The power of the gan comes from coordinating the whole body
In attacking it can aim at the mother line via the groin, the kua the kidneys etc.In defending it can control a low attack while a jum attacks the neck/throat.In certain occasions the gan can help witha throw or even an elbow break.
There is more but I hope the summary answers your question.

[Hendrik]

Joy,

Thank you and appreciate for this excellent write up!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foAAVQKvhtA

some unknown person whose narration I do not understand put up the video of Fong sifu doing the slt a long time ago.
Gan sao is at 2.56

The gan is also there in biu jee as gan/jum and in the jong as a section with gan combined with kuen. There is also gan do with the bjd.

Good Ip man wing chun usually involves cooperation with both hands- so there is always something else balanced with the gan.

You can also see Ho Kam Ming's later protege Lui Ming Fai with the gan in the forms and the knives.

The gan can be practiced with the rich variety of footwork that we use.

The gan is usually used for the lower gates. For development the arm cam be straight for learning how to release energy. In application it is bent as a precaution against arm bars.
The power of the gan comes from coordinating the whole body
In attacking it can aim at the mother line via the groin, the kua the kidneys etc.In defending it can control a low attack while a jum attacks the neck/throat.In certain occasions the gan can help witha throw or even an elbow break.
There is more but I hope the summary answers your question.

[k gledhill]

WSL himself showing gaan sao and later in clip a drill.
http://youtu.be/O31Qb_VibiI

[k gledhill]

Gaun sao was originally in Bil Gee as a low / recovery action. After a fight WSL spoke to Yip Man about trying to use a jum sao against a punch that ended up dropping beyond the transverse plane. Gaun sao sequence was added to SLT because of that.
Jum sao is the preference because its a punching attack while gaun is a low hand chaser. Sure adapting can make it a low neck chop too ; ) and a can opener !

[poulperadieux]

In the story I was told, they were both to come to yip man to sort of who was right about the gaun sao.

YM answered :"you both are!" and authorized WSL to change HIS Siu Lim Tao.


From one of WSL old and direct student I met, he taught something different to everyone, depending how he felt a student.
Like Yip Man.

If you think about it, you can't teach the same thing to a big thing guy and a fat short fellow.

So, like Bruce Lee, I think style in martial art is not a good idea, methods are better.
I don't think Bruce Lee found this idea by himself, maybe he was just one who learned really wisely what was taught in Wing Chun the time he was at Ip Man's.


That's why, when I read : "We are WSL lineage, we do like WSL, we teach the real WSL style..." it just itches me a bit.

But nothing serious, keeep doing this way.

[Graham H]

Gaan Sau good for fighting dwarfs :D

[Happy Tiger]

I never went too much for the teach according to size idea. There are always people bigger and smaller than me. Im 6 2 but though tall, fight people taller still and smaller.Also with different centers of gravity. If I ever teach, Ill teach to let the student wear VC as he/she sees fit rather than how I see fit.

[JPinAZ]

Gaun sao was originally in Bil Gee as a low / recovery action. After a fight WSL spoke to Yip Man about trying to use a jum sao against a punch that ended up dropping beyond the transverse plane. Gaun sao sequence was added to SLT because of that.
Jum sao is the preference because its a punching attack while gaun is a low hand chaser. Sure adapting can make it a low neck chop too ; ) and a can opener !

Interesting story, but Gaun Sao is found in non Yip Man lineages prior to WSL. Example: HFY has gaun sau in it's SNT (3rd section) and conceptually is seen a in our 4-gate defense strategies as well as 2-hand Kiu Sau bridging. And HFY does not even come from Red Boats, let alone from Yip Man lineage.

So, while WSL may have added it back in in to YM SNT, for some lineages it's always been there. :)

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=T_Ray;1222469] Further changes were made over time, and Ip Man's, students eg. WSL, refined it further.....Ip Man even adopting some of WSL's changes.

--------------------------------------------------Ip Man adopting WSL's changes? I don't think so.
Gan sao has been in HKM;s slt from the start.

[Vajramusti]

I'm thinking, as an example, the teaching of dummy at Chum Kiu, instead of leaving it later in the syatem. Ip Man asked WSL why he taught Dummy to Chum Kiu students. WSL explained that the first 40 or so movements relate to (and improve) Chum Kiu. IP Man agreed.......Ip Ching lineage still follow this method, and start to teach Dummy at Chum Kiu.
-----------------------------------------------WSL can speak for himself-not necessarily for others.

[k gledhill]

-----------------------------------------------WSL can speak for himself-not necessarily for others.

Joy do you have the tan jum tan huen sequence in SLT ?

[k gledhill]

Interesting story, but Gaun Sao is found in non Yip Man lineages prior to WSL. Example: HFY has gaun sau in it's SNT (3rd section) and conceptually is seen a in our 4-gate defense strategies as well as 2-hand Kiu Sau bridging. And HFY does not even come from Red Boats, let alone from Yip Man lineage.

So, while WSL may have added it back in in to YM SNT, for some lineages it's always been there. :)

Do you also have the tan jum tan huen sequence in the third sect of slt ?

[Hendrik]

Thanks!

Great clip!


WSL himself showing gaan sao and later in clip a drill.
http://youtu.be/O31Qb_VibiI

[Hendrik]

Per 1850 slt kuen kuit, this section is

Tun ( not tan, tun is swallow which the bridge is execute higher then the tan. Tan is excecute at chest level ), Guan , tun , huen.

Tun and guan are both 45 degree up or down outward hand. While tan is 90 degree outwar hand.


Also, Tun, Guan, tun is refer as up down flying flower hands.





Joy do you have the tan jum tan huen sequence in SLT ?

[k gledhill]

Gaan Sau good for fighting dwarfs :D

Jum sao is a predominant idea many let go for gaan sao. Must have been many street dwarfs looking for trouble !!

[k gledhill]

Per 1850 slt kuen kuit, this section is

Tun ( not tan, tun is swallow which the bridge is execute higher then the tan. Tan is excecute at chest level ), Guan , tun , huen.

Tun and guan are both 45 degree up or down outward hand. While tan is 90 degree outwar hand.


Also, Tun, Guan, tun is refer as up down flying flower hands.

Swallow ? Tun ? Tun guan tun is a punch parry punch.

[JPinAZ]

Do you also have the tan jum tan huen sequence in the third sect of slt ?

Instead of answering, you can watch and see for yourself

Form with terms/descriptions before each sub section:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf4R9n-zn3I

With terms at the end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE84nEJOiYk

[JPinAZ]

Per 1850 slt kuen kuit, this section is

Tun ( not tan, tun is swallow which the bridge is execute higher then the tan. Tan is excecute at chest level ), Guan , tun , huen.

Tun and guan are both 45 degree up or down outward hand. While tan is 90 degree outwar hand.

Also, Tun, Guan, tun is refer as up down flying flower hands.

you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Hendrik]

Swallow ? Tun ? Tun guan tun is a punch parry punch.

It is called swallow bridge, today some called this high tan sau.

Tun, guan (gaan) , tun, and huen sequence in slt set exist since that time.


However, different lineages have different evolution since then.

[Grumblegeezer]

In the WT branches of the Yip Man lineages, the sequence you've all been discussing in the 3rd section of SNT is done slightly differently. Instead of the tan-jum-gaun-tan... sequence, we do tan-sau, jum-sau, then guat-sau instead of gaun-sau. Guat-sau looks a bit like gaun-sau but is actually quite different in energy and application.

In the WT system and it's offshoots, gaun-sau is performed in SNT only in the opening of the first section of the form right after the crossed tan-sau (as is done in most of the Yip Man lineage versions). You often hear these movements described as serving to locate centerline and as delineating the vertical mid-line. True enough, but in application, this gaun sau is used singly as a quick, sharp downward-cutting motion that stops with the bridge arm aligned along the vertical mid-line. As others have mentioned, it is used as a defense against a low-level attack that would go beneath a jum sau (normally the favored technique for its economy of motion), and it's power comes primarily from the elbow.

The guat-sau in the third section of the form is, by contrast, a heavier wiping motion that involves the whole arm, powered by the larger muscles of the upper-arm, shoulder and back, and sweeps across the lower part of the body all the way to the side of the body. This movement is used to sweep aside a mid-level kick, when it is not convenient to defend with the legs alone. Done with proper structure and linkage it is quite effective at deflecting thrusting kicks to the mid-section, and often can be followed with a leg scoop and throw (see below).

The young woman in the clip below performs the sequence involving guat-sau at about 1:38-1:46. The guat-sau is followed by an upward scooping motion (lau-sau) to a high tan-sau (ko-tan-sau) which is often applied as a leg scoop and throw. In later modifications, some groups greatly exaggerate these movements to emphasize this particular application.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_SI9znsJQ


So my question is, do any other Yip Man branches make this distinction between gaun-sau and guat-sau ...perhaps the Leung Sheung branch? Or is this done exclusively by the WT groups coming through LT?

[BPWT]

Yes, Grumblegeezer, you are, like, so dreaming.

Haven't you realized yet, that if something doesn't come from PB, then it's not real. :D

The logic is simple and undeniable, my friend. Let me explain it to you in three successive points.

1. PB, on meeting someone, instantly passes on the sum of all his knowledge... so that those students can comment, online, with absolute authority about the art. :)

2. WSL passed on all he had, every single iota of his VT knowledge to PB. The whole shebang, so that PB's students can comment, online, with absolute authority about the art. :)

3. Everything Yip Man ever learning about this art, he passed on to WSL. Absolutely everything. Even the things he'd removed from the system. Even the things he'd made the decision to not pass on. Even things he might have learned from YKS and Sum Nung. Everything. Every single thing or idea that had ever crossed his mind about this art. Meaning, thus, that eventually PB's students can comment, online, with absolute authority about the system. :D

This is their version of 'point theory'. :rolleyes::)

[poulperadieux]

yes, grumblegeezer, you are, like, so dreaming.

Haven't you realized yet, that if something doesn't come from pb, then it's not real. :d

the logic is simple and undeniable, my friend. Let me explain it to you in three successive points.

1. Pb, on meeting someone, instantly passes on the sum of all his knowledge... So that those students can comment, online, with absolute authority about the art. :)

2. Wsl passed on all he had, every single iota of his vt knowledge to pb. The whole shebang, so that pb's students can comment, online, with absolute authority about the art. :)

3. Everything yip man ever learning about this art, he passed on to wsl. Absolutely everything. Even the things he'd removed from the system. Even the things he'd made the decision to not pass on. Even things he might have learned from yks and sum nung. Everything. Every single thing or idea that had ever crossed his mind about this art. Meaning, thus, that eventually pb's students can comment, online, with absolute authority about the system. :d

this is their version of 'point theory'. :rolleyes::)



:d :d:d :d

[BPWT]

As one of those PB guys, I have to say................You're not that far wrong mate :D. Good post!

I know! This level of data transference has vexed scientists and historians for decades. It is almost... God-like!

Logical fallacy that somehow leads to the infallible.

[BPWT]

I think this should, from here on in, be referred to as:

The 3 Laws of PBWSLVT Data Transference.

Anyone new to forum can read them and then know, if they don't study with PB, that their Sh*t is Fake. :D

[k gledhill]

Yes, Grumblegeezer, you are, like, so dreaming.

Haven't you realized yet, that if something doesn't come from PB, then it's not real. :D

The logic is simple and undeniable, my friend. Let me explain it to you in three successive points.

1. PB, on meeting someone, instantly passes on the sum of all his knowledge... so that those students can comment, online, with absolute authority about the art. :)

2. WSL passed on all he had, every single iota of his VT knowledge to PB. The whole shebang, so that PB's students can comment, online, with absolute authority about the art. :)

3. Everything Yip Man ever learning about this art, he passed on to WSL. Absolutely everything. Even the things he'd removed from the system. Even the things he'd made the decision to not pass on. Even things he might have learned from YKS and Sum Nung. Everything. Every single thing or idea that had ever crossed his mind about this art. Meaning, thus, that eventually PB's students can comment, online, with absolute authority about the system. :D

This is their version of 'point theory'. :rolleyes::)

You aren't far off. ; )

[k gledhill]

I think this should, from here on in, be referred to as:

The 3 Laws of PBWSLVT Data Transference.

Anyone new to forum can read them and then know, if they don't study with PB, that their Sh*t is Fake. :D

Correction : Their sh*t is CONFUSED. : )

[BPWT]

Correction : Their sh*t is CONFUSED. : )

I think you have been the unwitting victim of some subtle, and maybe even unintentional, brainwashing. :D

[k gledhill]

I think you have been the unwitting victim of some subtle, and maybe even unintentional, brainwashing. :D

Dream on ; ) ( in your case " lean on " ), if I am brainwashed it probably needed cleaning of soiled ideas : )

[BPWT]

Well, I am happy you are happy with your teacher. ;)

It's all that really matters - but when he offers you a glass of goat's blood, claiming it was a recipe passed down from Yip Man to WSL to PB....

:D

[k gledhill]

Well, I am happy you are happy with your teacher. ;)

It's all that really matters - but when he offers you a glass of goat's blood, claiming it was a recipe passed down from Yip Man to WSL to PB....

:D

I would believe him ...IF he did ; ) but he wouldn't.

[Graham H]

Dream on ; ) ( in your case " lean on " )

Lmfao :D:D:D

[BPWT]

Yes, there are Gaun sau and Gwat sau in the WC I know..(Duncan Leung lineage).contained in SLT. Just another letter in WC's alphabet.

Interesting to know. Duncan Leung and Leung Ting have no connection, though they have very similar stories about the nature of Yip Man's teaching when in private lessons.

But regarding garn sao and gwat sao, be wary of the PB gang. :) By sharing this information you have just violated the 2nd and 3rd Law of PBWSLVT Data Transference. LOL :D

[Graham H]

But regarding garn sao and gwat sao, be wary of the PB gang. :) By sharing this information you have just violated the 2nd and 3rd Law of PBWSLVT Data Transference. LOL :D

It must be difficult for you to realise that you don't know too much after all the time you have spent training. In a nutshell your data is corrupt and lacks any real substance.

Nice fella though :D

[BPWT]

It must be difficult for you to realise that you don't know too much after all the time you have spent training. In a nutshell your data is corrupt and lacks any real substance. Nice fella though :D

I see what you did there, Graham. You took my assertion that it is impossible for your lineage (or any, for that matter), to claim totality of knowledge, and then claimed I am lacking knowledge. :)

What I like about Leung Ting's data is that it is from Yip Man, but not only from Yip Man... it goes back further and looks at the sources' source, and the Wing Chun cousins (as it were) of that earlier source. LT's numerous trips into mainland China in the early 1980's revealed a lot... indeed, many today are rediscovering what he found some 40 years ago. ;)

I wouldn't say it is corrupted data - but data that paints a broader picture. Yip Man's teachings weren't developed in a vacuum.

But I think you guys are nice fellas too - so high fives. :o

[BPWT]

well, I don't know and cannot speak to who/what in private lessons...
I am not familiar with PB, nor Leung Ting.

Many, many moons ago I was getting fabulously drunk with a guy from Yip Chun's lineage, who said that Yip Chun had no recollection of his father giving private lessons to Leung Ting, and that LT's accounts of those lessons sounded false (the format of teaching).

A few years back Duncan Leung talked about his private lessons with Yip Man - saying that lessons were a few times a week, consisted of one hour of direct instruction, followed by Yip Man then hanging around for another hour or so to smoke and drink tea while correcting (verbally) the forms, dummy work, weapons work Duncan Leung was practicing while Yip Man watched. He also spoke of regularly meeting Yip Man for tea and dim sum - occasions when Yip Man would talk about Wing Chun (history, theories, general stories, etc)..... exactly the lesson and learning format that Leung Ting had also been talking about for years. ;)

Regarding PB, all you really need to know is that:

a) he looks very skilled
b) he takes his training very seriously, by all accounts
c) some of his students have been brainwashed and would drink goat's blood if he gave it to them :D

[Grumblegeezer]

Personally, I'm not out to get involved in another lineage bashing session. I'd love having a chance to meet and learn from PB and other such highly skilled WC men. And I'm not a brain-washed follower of any cult. I've met those kinds of people, mindlessly following their sifus, including some of the WT crowd. That's not for me.

@Kevin, sorry you think I'm dreaming when I asked that question. I don't see what the big deal is. A lot of lineages use slightly different techniques. A simple "no" would have sufficed.

@Hybridwarrior, is the guat/gwat-sau that you learned in Duncan Leung's WC the same of similar to what I described, and is it also present in the SNT form?

[k gledhill]

Personally, I'm not out to get involved in another lineage bashing session. I'd love having a chance to meet and learn from PB and other such highly skilled WC men. And I'm not a brain-washed follower of any cult. I've met those kinds of people, mindlessly following their sifus, including some of the WT crowd. That's not for me.

@Kevin, sorry you think I'm dreaming when I asked that question. I don't see what the big deal is. A lot of lineages use slightly different techniques. A simple "no" would have sufficed.

@Hybridwarrior, is the guat/gwat-sau that you learned in Duncan Leung's WC the same of similar to what I described, and is it also present in the SNT form?

No problem many are confused by the same things. I also was unaware and refered to the opening arm actions as x tan or high & low gaan sao. I was wrong, now I understand the meaning. What you are referring to in the 3 rd section of slt is gaan sao a cutting action , tan gaan tan, hit cut down hit ...

[Happy Tiger]

Many, many moons ago I was getting fabulously drunk with a guy from Yip Chun's lineage, who said that Yip Chun had no recollection of his father giving private lessons to Leung Ting, and that LT's accounts of those lessons sounded false (the format of teaching).

A few years back Duncan Leung talked about his private lessons with Yip Man - saying that lessons were a few times a week, consisted of one hour of direct instruction, followed by Yip Man then hanging around for another hour or so to smoke and drink tea while correcting (verbally) the forms, dummy work, weapons work Duncan Leung was practicing while Yip Man watched. He also spoke of regularly meeting Yip Man for tea and dim sum - occasions when Yip Man would talk about Wing Chun (history, theories, general stories, etc)..... exactly the lesson and learning format that Leung Ting had also been talking about for years. ;)

Regarding PB, all you really need to know is that:

a) he looks very skilled
b) he takes his training very seriously, by all accounts
c) some of his students have been brainwashed and would drink goat's blood if he gave it to them :DI dont know to what extent but I know for sure master Leung Ting had direct instruction from gm Ip Man. I have seen photos of the two plainly in session together.Leung Ting was at one time on the directors board of the VTAA even after the "head of clan scandal."

[BPWT]

Indeed. The private lessons allegedly caused a stir as it was done without LT asking Leung Sheung's permission - and so was seen as generation jumping.

The MA Hero interview with YM mentioned LT was a closed door student... and when published Yip Man had no problem with the print - no correction or retraction asked for.

YM attended LT's WT events, was a guest at LT's wedding, etc. There was clearly a relationship there.

[k gledhill]

Private lessons mean little if you don't understand certain concepts.

[BPWT]

Private lessons mean little if you don't understand certain concepts.

Sure - but LT is smart enough to have asked about these concepts. On more than one occasion he's highlighted the importance of the tea and dim sum meetings with Yip Man. The theory to the applications worked out in their chi sao training.

[Graham H]

c) some of his students have been brainwashed and would drink goat's blood if he gave it to them :D

Yes I think that all the other lineages I have been part or experienced had less tasty goats blood. I was worried with the LT guys though. They not only drink goats blood but they also f***ed the goats :eek::D

[Graham H]

I see what you did there, Graham. You took my assertion that it is impossible for your lineage (or any, for that matter), to claim totality of knowledge, and then claimed I am lacking knowledge. :)

o

Mwaaaaaaaaaah haaaaa haaaaaaa :)

[k gledhill]

Sure - but LT is smart enough to have asked about these concepts. On more than one occasion he's highlighted the importance of the tea and dim sum meetings with Yip Man. The theory to the applications worked out in their chi sao training.

Your assuming if one eats dim sum and has tea with yip man While asking questions one will see clearly. As mentioned there are no guarantees of understanding.

[Vajramusti]

Your assuming if one eats dim sum and has tea with yip man While asking questions one will see clearly. As mentioned there are no guarantees of understanding.
----------------------------------------------------------------

One well known wing chun/VT sifu claimed that he was taught pole/kwan usage with a chop stick
at a dim sum time in a restaurant!!!

[Graham H]

----------------------------------------------------------------

One well known wing chun/VT sifu claimed that he was taught pole/kwan usage with a chop stick
at a dim sum time in a restaurant!!!

That's not hard to believe. It's easy to explain the thinking behind pole fighting strategies using two chop sticks.

[Vajramusti]

In the WT branches of the Yip Man lineages, the sequence you've all been discussing in the 3rd section of SNT is done slightly differently.

So my question is, do any other Yip Man branches make this distinction between gaun-sau and guat-sau ...perhaps the Leung Sheung branch? Or is this done exclusively by the WT groups coming through LT?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Your gwat sao may be an application of gan sao. BT BTW after getting into the ygkyma stance-
the double hand down is not a gan sao to me- prefer the term sup ge sao- down ward crossing double hand...the vectors area little different.

[k gledhill]

That's not hard to believe. It's easy to explain the thinking behind pole fighting strategies using two chop sticks.

My thoughts exactly ; )

[trubblman]

Two Ip Man studends asking about the tan sao and specifically whether it should come out palm down and turn or just come straight out palm up... Ip Man said they were both correct.. This was an epiphany for Ip Chun as he always thought WC was absolute.



Ip Man was wise in teaching this way but its forgotten. VT has become formalistic with different lineages disputing the correct way to perform a technique as if fighting can reduced into a set of standard angles and curves.

[rogerlee36]

----------------------------------------------------------------

One well known wing chun/VT sifu claimed that he was taught pole/kwan usage with a chop stick
at a dim sum time in a restaurant!!!

My first taichi teacher taught ideas about gim this way, not substitution for real thing but gives idea.