Circle around your opponent

[YouKnowWho]

Do you like to circle around your opponent in fighting?

http://imageshack.us/a/img864/8041/circlerunningr.jpg

In the above picture, your opponent will be at the center of the circle. You move your back foot sideway (about 1 foot) to line up with your opponent's leading foot and back foot. You then move your front foot the same direction (about 3 inch) so both of your feet and your opponent's feet are almost in a straight line. If you keep moving this way, you will force your opponent to rotate with you. There are many advantage by doing this:

- You keep move toward your opponent's side door to force his leading arm to jam his back arm (so his back hand can't reach you).
- Since your opponent is constantly moving with you (he doesn't want you to move behind of him), his balance is shifting between his legs. This will give your opportunity to take advantage on his balance shifting (such as a foot sweep).
- If you attack his leading leg when your back foot, his leading foot, and his back foot are in a straight line, it doesn't matter where he may move his leading foot, his leading leg will always be within your attacking range (you are at the door handle position. No matter which direction the door may swing, it will still be rerstricted by the position of the door axis).
- ...

Unless your opponent attacks you at that moment, otherwise you have just forced him to play your game. If you have more experience in this footwork, you will have advantege over your opponnet.

What's your opinion on this?

[-N-]

Spiral in from the outside is better than circling. It has attack intent from the start.

Some people circle and move for no reason. They are just in a different position and didn't have the idea to pressure or attack with their step. The person in the center just pivots because the person circles on the outside without gaining advantage. Pivot is faster than circle.

If the person outside spirals in to take the back, the center person cannot just pivot. They will have to make distance while pivoting, which becomes a circle/arc retreat. Or they will need to intercept the attack and just go in.

[omarthefish]

If the person outside spirals in to take the back, the center person cannot just pivot. They will have to make distance while pivoting, which becomes a circle/arc retreat. Or they will need to intercept the attack and just go in.

Hmm....

Well this is how I do it:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/obelove/footworkwmv.gif

[-N-]

When my teacher started us with circling and pivoting, we worked on quick continuous stepping without closing in.

Then we added jat tui("cross kick" from the other discussion) for the attack. The kick was for closing in, and we worked both left and right kicks for each direction of circling.

Then instead of just circling, we had to attack by going in with spiral footwork to deliver the kicks. The kicks helped train the quickness and intensity of the steps. Center partner had to add a small half moon retreat to his pivot.

Then we added low roundhouse to the leg. Then groin kick. Then front thrust heel kick.

During that, we added on avoiding, neutralizing, and countering the kicks and steps. So center partner couldn't just run.

Then we added one hand technique at a time.

[-N-]

Hmm....

Well this is how I do it:


You are blue?

Pressure in with straight line and tight spiral to the back as the opponent defense collapses.

Opening attack was aggressive enough that red forgot how to use his hand against the second punch. He was desperate just not to get hit. Otherwise he could continue his side step into a spiral with his right arm to the outside of second punch without panicking.

[Robinhood]

Do you like to circle around your opponent in fighting?

http://imageshack.us/a/img864/8041/circlerunningr.jpg

In the above picture, your opponent will be at the center of the circle. You move your back foot sideway (about 1 foot) to line up with your opponent's leading foot and back foot. You then move your front foot the same direction (about 3 inch) so both of your feet and your opponent's feet are almost in a straight line. If you keep moving this way, you will force your opponent to rotate with you. There are many advantage by doing this:

- You keep move toward your opponent's side door to force his leading arm to jam his back arm (so his back hand can't reach you).
- Since your opponent is constantly moving with you (he doesn't want you to move behind of him), his balance is shifting between his legs. This will give your opportunity to take advantage on his balance shifting (such as a foot sweep).
- If you attack his leading leg when your back foot, his leading foot, and his back foot are in a straight line, it doesn't matter where he may move his leading foot, his leading leg will always be within your attacking range (you are at the door handle position. No matter which direction the door may swing, it will still be rerstricted by the position of the door axis).
- ...

Unless your opponent attacks you at that moment, otherwise you have just forced him to play your game. If you have more experience in this footwork, you will have advantege over your opponnet.

What's your opinion on this?

If you can get the other guy to react wrong to any movement, you will have a small window of opportunity , depending on distance etc... And if next move can be neutralized , because he has time still to move correctly then no, but to hope you can move 3 feet before he can rotate 5 degrees is not good move, unless he does into know how to rotate. If you are playing with someone who does not react right to your movements , then almost anything will work.

[-N-]

to hope you can move 3 feet before he can rotate 5 degrees is not good move, unless he does into know how to rotate.

The footwork has to be set up and applied in the right context.

Just like some of the other questions raised on the forum, the methods really can't be assessed as stand alone items.

The gif shows a good way to set up the circle/spiral with the initial straight line.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I would pray for you, but I really don't know where to start. What gung fu system are we talking about here, if at all?

[YouKnowWho]

Spiral in from the outside is better than circling. It has attack intent from the start.

If your opponent does not turn with you, you can attack him at your 1st back foot side step. No circling will be needed.


Hmm....

Well this is how I do it:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/obelove/footworkwmv.gif

In your example, your opponent does not trun with you. It gives you a chance to move into his "back door".

[YouKnowWho]

I would pray for you, but I really don't know where to start. What gung fu system are we talking about here, if at all?

We are not talking about any particular "gung fu system" but TCMA in general. Some people like to move in circle and others don't. We just exchange different opinions about it.

[-N-]

If your opponent does not turn with you, you can attack him at your 1st back foot side step. No circling will be needed.

In your example, your opponent does not trun with you. It gives you a chance to move into his "back door".

Isn't that the point?

We don't circle to stay on the outside.

We spiral in tight before he can have a chance to pivot. Then you have his back and can continue to attack. If you wrap his neck, you can continue your spin/twist.

If you can do that in one or two steps, that will be effective.

[-N-]

If you wrap his neck, you can continue your spin/twist.

Twist so his spine has to wrap around your body, then he will fly, no?

[YouKnowWho]

We don't circle to stay on the outside.

If you use "single leg", you will still attack through his front door.

[omarthefish]

If your opponent does not turn with you, you can attack him at your 1st back foot side step. No circling will be needed.



In your example, your opponent does not trun with you. It gives you a chance to move into his "back door".
it's not random that he didn't turn. There are two waysi know to get that effect.

- hide your footwork by attacking his face.

- move in as he attacks.

Both of those two situations prevent him from turning.

[omarthefish]

ps

imo,
back door is better than side door is better than front door.

[YouKnowWho]

it's not random that he didn't turn. There are two waysi know to get that effect.

- hide your footwork by attacking his face.

- move in as he attacks.

Both of those two situations prevent him from turning.
Distraction is always a good strategy. You can also set him up so "he can't turn".

If you pull your opponent's leading arm "downward", it will force him to put weight on his front leg. When you pull, you also step your back foot to where you want it to be. The moment he tries to shift weight to his back foot so he can turn, the moment that you move in.

This strategy also has another advantage. If your opponent borrows your pulling force and shoulder strike at you, since you have moved your back foot side way, you are no longer in your original position, you have just lead him into the emptiness.

[-N-]

it's not random that he didn't turn. There are two waysi know to get that effect.

- hide your footwork by attacking his face.

- move in as he attacks.

Both of those two situations prevent him from turning.

And use both at the same time to overhelm and dominate.

That is the spirit we want when our students attack.

[-N-]

Distraction is always a good strategy. You can also set him up so "he can't turn".

If you pull your opponent's leading arm "downward", it will force him to put weight on his front leg. When you pull, you also step your back foot to where you want it to be. The moment he tries to shift weight to his back foot, the moment that you move in.

Psychological control is easier than physical control. Good for when we are lazy :)

[YouKnowWho]

back door is better than side door is better than front door.

Agree!

In

- front door, you have to deal with both of your opponent's arms.
- side door, you only have to deal with one of your opponent's arms.
- back door, you don't have to deal with any of your opponent's arms.

Since your opponent's arms can't bend backward, he will have no arms to deal with you.

[YouKnowWho]

Psychological control is easier than physical control. Good for when we are lazy :)

The reason that I like to pull my opponent's leading arm is not because "I am not lazy" and have too much energy to spend. It's because "I'm lazy" and try to use as less energy as possible. I have to "give" before I can "take". If I pull my opponent's body into me, the counter force can pull my body into him. This will make my "single leg" much faster.

[lkfmdc]

back door is better than side door is better than front door.

this is the rule for sex also ;)

[David Jamieson]

There is no hard and fast rule, but you should be ready to get mobile and while mobile, you should be able to move where you need to be.

whether you do that in a circle or off a straight line is up to you in context to what is going on.

train to be and remain mobile.

I personally find "straight line only" or "stand and be a stump" to be hallmarks of poor tactical knowledge. It's in your best interest to get into being not there for your opponent.

[YouKnowWho]

In your training, do you have both an offensive inside circle and an outside defensive circle?
Not sure your definition of "offensive inside circle" and "outside defensive circle". As shown in this picture:

http://imageshack.us/a/img864/8041/circlerunningr.jpg

If you have

- right leg forward, you always move to your left.
- left leg forward, you always move to your right.

The reason is simple. If you move the other direction, you will "cross your legs". You may say that you can move your leading leg first. This also violate the "always move your back leg first" principle.

When you have right leg forward and if your opponent

- also has right leg forward, you will move into his right side door.
- has left leg forward, you will move into his front door.

[YouKnowWho]

There is no hard and fast rule,

The rule is to "reduce your risk to the minimum". Of course if you deal with a beginer who can't recognize your risk, it won't make any difference. But we can't always make such assumption.

For example, when you "cross your legs", if your opponent doesn't know "foot sweep", you will be safe.

In Chinese wrestling, it's OK to lose if your opponent has higher skill level than you have. It's not OK to lose because you make a stupid mistake.

[David Jamieson]

In Chinese wrestling, it's OK to lose if your opponent has higher skill level than you have. It's not OK to lose because you make a stupid mistake.

That's true in all sport.

[omarthefish]

this is the rule for sex also ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjCuTEmJ4fY

Anyways, I was posting from my cell phone so trying to keep it short. Just responding to YKW's comment that I could have taken him on the first step rather than going to extra mile to get from side door to rear door. :o

Funny thing is, I didn't even do anything once I got there. I had an instinct to jump rear guard and throw on an RNC but it wasn't that kind of tourny. Then I had a brief flash of trying a suplex but a: I haven't really trained those much lol and b: we were told no high amplitude throws. We could sweep or throw but no dumping anyone on their head.