Chase hands

[YouKnowWho]

People said that one should not chase hands.

This is correct from a striker point of view because your main goal is to knock your opponent down.

If you look at this from a grappler point of view, it makes a lot of sense to chase hands. When you have controlled both of your opponent's arms, he can't punch you at that moment. You can then quickly turn a striking game into your favor grappling game.

Here is a good example of "chase hands".

- You right punch at your opponent.
- Your opponent blocks with his right arm.
- Your right hand grab his right blocking arm (chase his right hand).
- He punches you with his left arm.
- You redirect his right arm and use it to block his own left arm.
- At the same time, you let your left hand to take over your right grip on his right wrist.
- You then use your right free hand to garb his left arm wrist (chase his left hand).
- Now you have controlled both of your opponent's arms (no more hands to chase).
- You pull yourself into your opponent and move in with your head lock, under hook, over hook, arm wrap and start your grappling game right at that moment.

What's your opinion on this?

[TenTigers]

that isn't really chasing.(Well, not how we in Southern Gung-Fu see chasing.)
You block or he blocks, you have contact.
Chasing hands is when you go after the hand/foot, reaching, over extending, or just following your opponent's action, rather than focusing on attacking the target.

[-N-]

People said that one should not chase hands.

[...]

Here is a good example of "chase hands".

- Your right hand grab his right blocking arm (chase his right hand).

[...]

- You then use your right free hand to garb his left arm wrist (chase his left hand).

What's your opinion on this?

I consider it chasing if you are following his action instead of leading it.

If he already blocked and is ready to do something else, and you react to the block, it is too late.

Better to lead so he doesn't have a chance to recover his timing.

In the same example, you punch to make him block. He starts to block, and you grab his hand and take over before he has completed his thought/action. This is how you make him give you control. You don't have to chase after it. Then follow up into your grappling or whatever.

This is how Praying Mantis does it. Look at every line in a form that ends in a takedown. That is what you see.

Superficially it might look like the other guy blocks. But you are intercepting his response every time. No chasing.

[Scott R. Brown]

I prefer to hook the arm, trap the elbow and then leverage the arm using the elbow as a fulcrum.

[YouKnowWho]

In the same example, you punch to make him block. He starts to block, and you grab his hand and take over before he has completed his thought/action.

If you have trained punch, grab, pull, re-grab, and grab drill daily, you are more familiar with this pattern than your opponent does. You will always be one step ahead of your opponent. Of course you have to make sure that your opponent uses his right arm to block your right punch. When you have grabbed his right arm, if he doesn't punch you with his left hand, you can press his right arm across his chest, switch grab, and still grab his left arm.

If you have right side forward and your opponent has left side forward, you will need a different plan.

If you just concentrate on controlling both of your opponent's arms before doing anything else, your mind will be simple. That will be your advantage IMO. This is what I'll call, "To force your striker opponent to play your grappling game".

[YouKnowWho]

Some people may not like this kind of pre set up "plan" and prefer to flow with their opponents. IMO, that's much harder to do. You just don't know where your opponent may lead you into. If you are not a good striker and fight a boxer, your boxer opponent may lead you into his favor boxing game instead.

[-N-]

If you have trained punch, grab, pull, re-grab, and grab drill daily, you are more familiar with this pattern than your opponent does. You will always be one step ahead of your opponent.

You pretty much described Mantis right there. Control, attack, regrab, attack in all different ways.




Of course you have to make sure that your opponent uses his right arm to block your right punch. When you have grabbed his right arm, if he doesn't punch you with his left hand, you can press his right arm across his chest, switch grab, and still grab his left arm.

Control his left first. Then he will give you his right hand when you attack. If he doesn't, you already hit him. When you grab his right, you now have both arms and go for takedown. This is controlling the arms without chasing after them.



If you have right side forward and your opponent has left side forward, you will need a different plan.

Switch sides with an attack. One that helped earn some kungfu respect from some karate guys I sparred was jump left middle roundhouse kick, left hand to control their lead left, jam a punch in their face, if they try to block with their right, take their right arm, pull to my right, use right sweep kick to my left for the takedown. If they don't block, hit them and grab their gi collar, then sweep takedown also.

That is one combo that I forced myself to stop using because it worked too well.

[-N-]

Some people may not like this kind of pre set up "plan" and prefer to flow with their opponents. IMO, that's much harder to do. You just don't know where your opponent may lead you into. If you are not a good striker and fight a boxer, your boxer opponent may lead you into his favor boxing game instead.

You can flow with the fight even if you use the combos that you have practiced before.

No different than a boxer with his own combos.

[YouKnowWho]

Switch sides with an attack. One that helped earn some kungfu respect from some karate guys I sparred was jump left middle roundhouse kick, left hand to control their lead left, jam a punch in their face, if they try to block with their right, take their right arm, pull to my right, use right sweep kick to my left for the takedown. If they don't block, hit them and grab their gi collar, then sweep takedown also.

I don't like to switch sides. I always put my right side forward. If my opponent has left side forward, everything will be much easier. My leading right hook punch can help me to set up my right grip on his left wrist. I can then pull myself into him and get him a head lock, or just circle under his left arm and get him an underhook.

It's so much fun to deal with a live opponent. I just don't enjoy "solo".

[-N-]

I don't like to switch sides. I always put my right side forward. If my opponent has left side forward, everything will be much easier. My leading right hook punch can help me to set up my right grip on his left wrist. I can then pull myself into him and get him a head lock, or just circle under his left arm and get him an underhook.

It's so much fun to deal with a live opponent. I just don't enjoy "solo".

I used to favor right side forward too. But added left forward to have more options and flexibilty to fight from any position. No matter what position, I can immediately attack without problem.

If you use aggressive overtaking footwork, at some point you will be left forward and it will be convenient to be able to attack from there.

You are willing to be an opponent that the other guy knows you only attack from right forward? If sometime you are left forward, you have to get ready first before attacking?

If you fight only right forward, you lose more than half your footwork options, and part of your speed and distance.

[-N-]

Isn't fighting only right side forward a type of chasing hands?

If you have to look for that particular position, don't you lose some ability to lead the fight?

[Dale Dugas]

From first contact, I want to control the person and their balance. Some call it controlling the spine of the person who is attacking you.

Off balance them at the earliest convenience and cause them to stumble/fall or strike them, etc.

Depends on what you are trying to do, you can tie up their arms so you can strike them and they cannot defend easily.

Tie up the arms to get in and control their body and throw them on the ground or off an object or on their head to end the confrontation.

Tie up their arms so you can access a gun, knife or other tool if needed by the situation.

I practice push hands while accessing my 1911 as well as knives.

[YouKnowWho]

I used to favor right side forward too. But added left forward to have more options and flexibilty to fight from any position.
In the striking art, whether your right punch hit on your opponent's face or your left hand does, it won't make much difference.

In the grappling art, your have

- major hand to control your opponent's arm, and
- minor hand to control your opponent's body.

also have

- offense leg that act like a swing door, and
- defense leg that act like a door axis.

If you have right side forward, your

- right hand will be the minor hand,
- left hand will be the major hand,
- right leg will be the offense leg,
- left leg will be the defense leg,

If you train

- one side, you will get 80%-0% result.
- both sides, you will get 40%-40% result.

It's a trade off. The choice will be yours.

[Dale Dugas]

Wang Shifu,

I train more on my dominant side much more than my non-dominant.

call it a super trained side.

[lkfmdc]

In the striking art, whether your right punch hit on your opponent's face or your left hand does, it won't make much difference.

In the grappling art, your have

- major hand to control your opponent's arm, and
- minor hand to control your opponent's body.

also have

- offense leg that act like a swing door, and
- defense leg that act like a door axis.

If you have right side forward, your

- right hand will be the minor hand,
- left hand will be the major hand,
- right leg will be the offense leg,
- left leg will be the defense leg,

If you train

- one side, you will get 80%-0% result.
- both sides, you will get 40%-40% result.

It's a trade off. The choice will be yours.

posts like this make me consider how much of my decisions are based upon my inclinations

[YouKnowWho]

Isn't fighting only right side forward a type of chasing hands?

If you have to look for that particular position, don't you lose some ability to lead the fight?
If you switch sides, you can train just one strategy and apply on both sides. If you only train one side, you will need different strategies for your opponent's right side forward and left side forward. Since you have skill to deal with both situation. you can still lead.

[YouKnowWho]

From first contact, I want to control the person and their balance.

Since the distance between you and your opponent, you have to pass his front gate (hand), middle gate (elbow), back gate (shoulder) before you can reach to his body. This is why you have to deal with your opponent's hands first.

[Dale Dugas]

Yes, Wang Shifu, you need to deal with the hands first. I should have been clearer.

Always need to deal with all three things you mentioned.

In Baguazhang you deal with the hand, elbows and shoulders as a whole unit. So we train to deal how to get through those things and unbalance the person as quickly as we can or strike them as early as possible to effect a change in their ability to fight back.

[YouKnowWho]

posts like this make me consider how much of my decisions are based upon my inclinations

It's not difficult to train your left hand/leg to punch/kick as hard as your right hand/leg. It's much more difficult to train your left hip throw to be as effective as your right hip throw.

[lkfmdc]

It's not difficult to train your left hand/leg to punch/kick as hard as your right hand/leg. It's much more difficult to train your left hip throw to be as effective as your right hip throw.

I meant my nature is striking, not grappling, I grapple to compliment my striking, not the other way around, so this influences my choices

[YouKnowWho]

I meant my nature is striking, not grappling, I grapple to compliment my striking, not the other way around, so this influences my choices

I can understand your approach. Most people may select your path.

[Dale Dugas]

I tend to enter with strikes and then pick them up and throw them down or off something.

Then I can access accessories to help speed their demise if needed.

[YouKnowWho]

I tend to enter with strikes and then pick them up and throw them down or off something.

Then I can access accessories to help speed their demise if needed.

To me, to deal with my opponent's hands is to reduce my risk of getting hit. The final goal is still the same - take opponent down ASAP.

If I can controlled both of my opponent arms for 1 second, and if I can enter at that 1 second time frame, I'll be safe.

[David Jamieson]

I always have been of the mind that grappling starts with close contact.
You can even grapple and strike at the same time.

However, chasing hands is a habit that gets weeded out of a striker pretty early in their training. If they are chasing after jabs that aren't going to land then they are subject to a lot of feigning and probably get their bells rung a lot.

Wait for it. Dissolve it, neutralize it, avoid it, but wait for it and concentrate on your offense. Your defense should be working with it. There really is no reason beyond fatigue or beginner tom foolery to get faked by incoming.

[-N-]

In the striking art, whether your right punch hit on your opponent's face or your left hand does, it won't make much difference.

In the grappling art, your have

[...]

If you train

- one side, you will get 80%-0% result.
- both sides, you will get 40%-40% result.

It's a trade off. The choice will be yours.


If you switch sides, you can train just one strategy and apply on both sides. If you only train one side, you will need different strategies for your opponent's right side forward and left side forward. Since you have skill to deal with both situation. you can still lead.

You already integrate striking and grappling, so it doesn't have to be an either/or choice.

You can train different techniques and strategies for your own left side vs. right side to suit their different advantages and facilitate setups and integration.

[-N-]

To me, to deal with my opponent's hands is to reduce my risk of getting hit. The final goal is still the same - take opponent down ASAP.

We think more like to make him give you control of his hands so you can hit/takedown.

[-N-]

Related to chasing hands - some Mantis people chase after the diou sau, Mantis hook/grab, to the wrist.

No need to struggle with that. If you contact his sleeve, you can just wrap/twist the sleeve and you have fast easy control of his arm.

[David Jamieson]

Related to chasing hands - some Mantis people chase after the diou sau, Mantis hook/grab, to the wrist.

No need to struggle with that. If you contact his sleeve, you can just wrap/twist the sleeve and you have fast easy control of his arm.

This is not how it plays out.

Our desire to do our action is not always going to be met with the ease of carrying it out.

No one has fast easy control of anyone in a fight. Unless you're Kramer in a Karate club, in which case, you will win...constantly. :p

[YouKnowWho]

No one has fast easy control of anyone in a fight.
You can let your opponent to lead you. You can also try to lead your opponent. Nothing is guranteed. It's pretty much like your girl want to go to Macy's. You try to take her to dollar store. You know that you won't go to Macy's with her. Whether she will go to dollar store with you, you don't know until you have tried it.

I always tell my students, if you don't have strong grip and strong head lock, none of these strategies will work for you. All strategies are build on top of certain requirement.

[Kellen Bassette]

I always tell my students, if you don't have strong grip and strong head lock, none of these strategies will work for you.

But I thought you could teach the weak to easily defeat the strong by simply using their force against them??? Can't 4 ounces move a thousand pounds?? :rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

But I thought you could teach the weak to easily defeat the strong by simply using their force against them??? Can't 4 ounces move a thousand pounds?? :rolleyes:
I have always believed that it's better to train for 1000 lb than just to train 4 oz. After you have obtained 1000 lb, you can still train for 4 oz. The other way around may not be true.

[Scott R. Brown]

If you train for 1,000 lbs, a flick of your finger will be your 4 oz.!

[SPJ]

What's your opinion on this?

If you are a thrower,

you bend your elbow and move in fast.

It is called Gua.

"Cat washing face" etc.

1. the opponent's arm is stretched while doing the punch.

You already bend your elbow to confine his punch away from your head and chest.

We are one move ahead. He has to bend his elbow to reuse his hand.

2. we are ready to throw him.

by grabbing neck, chest/shoulder, waist and tripping his leg or legs etc

3. if you try to grab his hand or wrist,

you have to position your self differently

--

[SPJ]

I have always believed that it's better to train for 1000 lb than just to train 4 oz. After you have obtained 1000 lb, you can still train for 4 oz. The other way around may not be true.

Yes.

Leverage the opponent's power and weight by positioning and angles.

Si Liang Bo Qian Jing

4 OZ to move 1000 pound/kilo

:cool:

[SevenStar]

From a grappling perspective, you don't chase hands, either. My main goal control wise is along your centerline. I want to immobilize your head and your hips. From a ground grappling perspective, if I have a full mount, your arms will render themselves useless. From a side mount, you won't be able to generate enough force to do any real damage. The only reason I need to worry about the arms is to lock them, and even that is made much easier once you control their body.

From a standup grappling perspective, I still want to control the body - your head, hips and center of gravity. I don't consider breaking the opponent's grip on you as chasing hands.

[YouKnowWho]

From a standup grappling perspective, I still want to control the body - your head, hips and center of gravity. I don't consider breaking the opponent's grip on you as chasing hands.

The ground game is a complete different story. When your opponent is on the bottom, his punch won't be that powerful.

In stand up grappling, you don't want your opponent to knock you out when you try to get his head or hip. The chasing hands is just to play safe.

The breaking grip is not chasing hands. Actually it's the opposite of it. When your opponent grabs you, he has just given his hand to you. There is no need to chase there.

When you chase your opponent's hands, you lost your ability to punch him at that moment. It's not a good idea for a striker. There must be some reward that can come out of this, otherwise nobody would want to use this strategy.


If you are a thrower,

you bend your elbow and move in fast.

It is called Gua.

"Cat washing face" etc.
When you use Gua - cat washing face, you can

- keep your arm and hand next to your face.
- move your arm and hand near your opponent's arm,

which way will be better? Is it better to wait for your opponent to punch you, or to prevent him from punching you by jaming his arm? If you believe that "to jam your opponent's punching arm" is a good idea, you will like the "chasing arm" strategy.

Again, my definition of "chasing arm" is

- not if you attack me and I chase your arm, but
- I attack you, chase where you arm is, and prevent you from punching me.

[SteveLau]

From my experience, chasing hands is no good method whether we are in attack or defense mode. The reason is that hand moves faster than elbow, and much more so than the body trunk. So by the same reason, if we set target to attack, the elbow or shoulder of the opponent is a good one.




Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[YouKnowWho]

hand moves faster than elbow, ...

If your opponent moves in toward you, you should go directly to his elbow or upper arm. When his body moves away from you, it will be much harder to do so. From the "offense" point of view, when you throw a

- jab, your opponent will try to block your punch. his arm will come to you.
- haymaker, unless he dodges your punch, your arm will go to his arm.
- jab followed by double hook punches, 90% of the time one of your arms will contact one of his arms.

When your "forearm" touch your opponent's "forearm" (the most common case), if you go for his

- elbow or upper arm (shoulder is too far), since your hand hasn't passed his elbow yet. If he moves back, your hand will chase his elbow or upper arm and you may miss it (rear end collision).
- wrist, since your hand has already passed his wrist, your hand will meet his wrist when he pulls his arm back and you also pull your arm back (head on collision).

[Robinhood]

But I thought you could teach the weak to easily defeat the strong by simply using their force against them??? Can't 4 ounces move a thousand pounds?? :rolleyes:

Its not 4 ounces moves a 1000 pounds, its 4 ounces can guide a 1000 pounds, but it requires many different skills to use correctly.

Force against force is the easiest to learn and apply.

[bawang]

Its not 4 ounces moves a 1000 pounds, its 4 ounces can guide a 1000 pounds

4 ounces can FIGHT 1000 pounds.

bo= struggle, fight.


but it requires many different skills to use correctly.

it requres not being a POOSY. a GIANT HAIRY POOSY WHOS SCARE OF FIGHT.



Force against force is the easiest to learn and apply.
fighting is not science. science is science. i am scientist, you not scientist.

[Robinhood]

4 ounces can FIGHT 1000 pounds.

bo= struggle, fight.


it requres not being a POOSY. a GIANT HAIRY POOSY WHOS SCARE OF FIGHT.


fighting is not science. science is science. i am scientist, you not scientist.

Lol.....right....you do it the way you want to, if it works for you, go for it.:D

And shave that hairy POOSY while your at it.

[Scott R. Brown]

My favorite one is:

"Water is soft, yet it can wear away the hardest rock!"

But no one ever mentions it takes water 100,000 to do it. It only takes a second with properly placed dynamite!

So, if you have 100,000 years to kill, feel free to be like water; if you don't have 100,000 years, probably better to be like dynamite!

[YouKnowWho]

You're not going to soft someone to death.

[Robinhood]

My favorite one is:

"Water is soft, yet it can wear away the hardest rock!"

But no one ever mentions it takes water 100,000 to do it. It only takes a second with properly placed dynamite!

So, if you have 100,000 years to kill, feel free to be like water; if you don't have 100,000 years, probably better to be like dynamite!


They use water jets to cut though through the hardest materials now with great precision , does not take long, its is focused precision .

[bawang]

They use water jets to cut though through the hardest materials now with great precision , does not take long, its is focused precision .

do u wanna touch my water jet

[Robinhood]

do u wanna touch my water jet

Probably more like squirt little gun, than water jet.

[Scott R. Brown]

They use water jets to cut though through the hardest materials now with great precision , does not take long, its is focused precision .

The original saying is meant to indicate water flowing in its natural state according to the principles of Tao. A water jet is an unnatural use of water and therefore against the principles of Tao. It is no different than using dynamite.

Water, as used in a water jet, no longer carries the meaning of the saying. The saying is meant to imply that soft is better and more natural than hard. A water jet is hard and merely demonstrates my point, that hard is more practical/efficient than soft.

Now, a cataclysmic flood would be a natural way for water to change and destroy a hard substance, but that too is not what the saying is meant to indicate.

Nice try though.

[SteveLau]

YouKnowWho,

Another big reason not to chase hands that I want to add is the sphere of movement. It is big for our hands. For example, a 5'10" tall person will have 2' radius of movement for his hand. So this is even stronger reason than speed to arrive at the conclusion.





Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[YouKnowWho]

YouKnowWho,

Another big reason not to chase hands that I want to add is the sphere of movement. It is big for our hands. For example, a 5'10" tall person will have 2' radius of movement for his hand. So this is even stronger reason than speed to arrive at the conclusion.

Again, if your opponent moves in toward you, you don't chase his hands but chase his elbow, upper arm, head, waist, leg, knee.

Chase hand will only make sense if you move in toward your opponent. You have to pass his hands before you can reach to his elbow, upper arm, head, waist, leg, knee. When you punch and your opponent blocks it. Can you punching hand grab his blocking arm fast and accuracy enough? Why do you want to chase his hand? You want to put a "fishing hook" on him. When he retreats, he will pull you with him.

In combat, if your opponent comes to you and you come to him at the same time, the winning and losing can be decided quickly. If when you move in and your opponent moves back, the fight may have to last for quite some time. To put a "fishing hook" on your opponent's body is to prevent your opponent from moving away from you. It's like an octupos

- uses one arm to wrap on a fish,
- pulls that fish in,
- wraps the whole body on that fish, and
- consumes it.

[SteveLau]

Yep. Grab the opponent's wrist or hand is feasible and practical only when we are in close range.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong