New WingChunKwoon site is live. [Archive]

Phil Redmond

04-04-2013, 01:14 PM

Phil

Why do you open the stance as in BJ in SLT and CK?

The reason for this circling of the legs has a reason in my BJ but the same idea cannot apply to SLT and CK.

I had a look around your site. Very well put together but a very very very very very very very different system of Wing Chun to what I practice. :)
We don't do the pigeon toed stance so we open the way you saw.

LaRoux

04-04-2013, 01:27 PM

I had a look around your site. Very well put together but a very very very very very very very different system of Wing Chun to what I practice. :)

Yeah, it seems to be one of the few that have evidence of being able to actually work in full-contact settings.

k gledhill

04-04-2013, 02:33 PM

Yeah, it seems to be one of the few that have evidence of being able to actually work in full-contact settings.

Lmao ! Stalker alert ; )

Graham H

04-04-2013, 11:39 PM

Yeah, it seems to be one of the few that have evidence of being able to actually work in full-contact settings.

Yes let's sit back and watch La Roux ruin another thread with his BS :rolleyes:

Graham H

04-04-2013, 11:41 PM

We don't do the pigeon toed stance so we open the way you saw.

In the hope that La BS doesn't ruin this thread Phil......Why don't you turn the feet in? Is it traditional or did WC take it out for a specific reason?

stonecrusher69

04-05-2013, 11:25 AM

Very nice website Phil..The old one was great to.

LaRoux

04-07-2013, 09:58 AM

Why don't you turn the feet in? Is it traditional or did WC take it out for a specific reason?

Maybe because in actual fighting, no one turns the feet in.

Graham H

04-07-2013, 10:01 AM

Maybe because in actual fighting, no one turns the feet in.

Ha ha! That has got to be one of the funniest things I've heard for ages. LMFAO

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Phil Redmond

04-07-2013, 10:30 AM

In the hope that La BS doesn't ruin this thread Phil......Why don't you turn the feet in? Is it traditional or did WC take it out for a specific reason?
We just keep the feet straight so that the lower legs are in as much of a straight column as possible while still pinching forward. We keep the feet straight like the "character 2" in YJKYM.

Phil Redmond

04-07-2013, 11:11 AM

We stand like WSL does here at 19:32:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1DQvDmZ6BU

Graham H

04-07-2013, 12:01 PM

We stand like WSL does here at 19:32:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1DQvDmZ6BU

WSL is showing something not doing a form. According to PB he would always be correcting peoples foot position. PB does it. I do it. We all do it.

I find your system of Wing Chun very bizarre. :D

Phil Redmond

04-07-2013, 01:29 PM

PalmStriker

04-07-2013, 07:27 PM

Hey Phil! Great site! Used to run down to Hermosa Beach when I lived in Culver City, 1974-6. Nice. :) Have seen common practice of feet straight for SLT as well as toes in, notice your position of knees is very WC and not wide stance TCMA in general. Mostly WC is known for the shallow stance as opposed to wide in Northern styles. Looks like you're on a roll out West. Cheers! :)

k gledhill

04-07-2013, 08:10 PM

WSL is showing something not doing a form. According to PB he would always be correcting peoples foot position. PB does it. I do it. We all do it.

I find your system of Wing Chun very bizarre. :D

PB showed me why to turn toes in and literally grabbed my legs/ knees/ feet and hand placed them in the obtuse triangulation of the chum kil.
It's easy to ignore and jump around until you know why. : )

anerlich

04-07-2013, 08:46 PM

PB showed me why to turn toes in and literally grabbed my legs/ knees/ feet and hand placed them in the obtuse triangulation of the chum kil.

Direct contact with the WC messiah from Germany. Wow.

It's easy to ignore and jump around until you know why. : )

OK, I'll bite. Why?

LaRoux

04-07-2013, 09:17 PM

Ha ha! That has got to be one of the funniest things I've heard for ages. LMFAO

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I know. What a foreign concept that must be to some of you.

Actually training in positions which are the same as what the application would be instead of standing in a position that has absolutely nothing to do with the application and would get a person knocked on his butt.

EternalSpring

04-07-2013, 11:09 PM

Nice site. I gotta admit that I bought "The Yellow Emperor's Classic" on the recommendation of the old site. Glad to see the 5 element stuff is still on there. I often go back to the site to re-read that stuff.

in regards to the stance in TWC, is it similar to the "Wuji" posture (which i believe is seen in tai chi and some chi kung and probably many other systems) which has the toes slightly inwards though not expressed as obviously?

Graham H

04-07-2013, 11:33 PM

Having studied different "versions" of Wing Chun over 43 years, I don't. :)

We are not all attracted to the same woman! :D

Graham H

04-07-2013, 11:35 PM

I know. What a foreign concept that must be to some of you.

Actually training in positions which are the same as what the application would be instead of standing in a position that has absolutely nothing to do with the application and would get a person knocked on his butt.

yeah yeah whatever. you know best NOT! :rolleyes:

BPWT

04-08-2013, 12:44 AM

WSL is showing something not doing a form. According to PB he would always be correcting peoples foot position. PB does it. I do it. We all do it.

The WSL stance seems a bit wider than ours (generally speaking), though I see the toes/foot turned in. With the wider stance you use, do you still get the adduction with the knees? (as the knees are pretty far apart)

Or do you not place particular emphasis on this?

Graham H

04-08-2013, 01:31 AM

The WSL stance seems a bit wider than ours (generally speaking), though I see the toes/foot turned in. With the wider stance you use, do you still get the adduction with the knees? (as the knees are pretty far apart)

Or do you not place particular emphasis on this?

In SLT YJKYM is a training stance not a fighting stance. We encourage the stance to be a little wider and deeper to put more stress on the legs during the form. The stance during sparring is dependent on the practitioner. We use a stance that is natural so we can maintain good structure and still be mobile and keep good balance. There is no set position albeit the feet must be turned in, the knees in and the waist pushed forward to bring the upper and lower parts of the body together. This allows us to move as one complete unit. Varying heights and limb lengths dictate the stance position. We don't encourage unnatural positions once the stance has been developed. It's illogical.
Some systems of Wing Chun encourage some very strange stances which reduce the ability to move properly, make quick adjustments and react without making big changes in position.

Our stance is more akin to a Boxers stance rather than the likes of YKSWC which looks like they have been in a car crash. :)

BPWT

04-08-2013, 02:16 AM

In SLT YJKYM is a training stance not a fighting stance. We encourage the stance to be a little wider and deeper to put more stress on the legs during the form. The stance during sparring is dependent on the practitioner. We use a stance that is natural so we can maintain good structure and still be mobile and keep good balance. There is no set position albeit the feet must be turned in, the knees in and the waist pushed forward to bring the upper and lower parts of the body together. This allows us to move as one complete unit. Varying heights and limb lengths dictate the stance position. We don't encourage unnatural positions once the stance has been developed. It's illogical. Some systems of Wing Chun encourage some very strange stances which reduce the ability to move properly, make quick adjustments and react without making big changes in position.

Okay, thanks for the info. That's what I thought, more like a boxer's stance.

Our stance is more akin to a Boxers stance rather than the likes of YKSWC which looks like they have been in a car crash. :)

Yes, the YKSWC stance has very pronounced sinking and adducting. But they have good reasons for it, I think. And they move well within the stance (fast and variable positions) - a very tight unit.

Graham H

04-08-2013, 02:33 AM

Yes, the YKSWC stance has very pronounced sinking and adducting. But they have good reasons for it, I think. And they move well within the stance (fast and variable positions) - a very tight unit.

From what I have witnessed of YKS they spend a lot of time in this very deep stance but the more they free things up their stance rises and becomes more in line with ours. My thinking on that is obviously humans cannot fight properly adopting such low clamped in stances. Only good for controlled situations and forms. Humans have evolved to be upright for a good reason. We position our limbs correctly in order to develop a good support base and then slight lower our center of gravity. This is enough for fighting.

If these deep stances were so effective then boxers would have adopted it years ago. Boxers realize that in order to move freely, keep balance and deliver power we need a certain stance. The YKS is not it IMO.

Bruce Lee also criticized deep kung fu stances.

BPWT

04-08-2013, 02:53 AM

From what I have witnessed of YKS they spend a lot of time in this very deep stance but the more they free things up their stance rises and becomes more in line with ours. My thinking on that is obviously humans cannot fight properly adopting such low clamped in stances. Only good for controlled situations and forms. Humans have evolved to be upright for a good reason. We position our limbs correctly in order to develop a good support base and then slight lower our center of gravity. This is enough for fighting.

I agree.... kinda. :) I saw this a lot in Xing Yi, where the stance requirements were very strict. When you saw very skilled people performing it looked as though they weren't always sticking to those requirements, but this is misleading. From years and years of stance training they could activate the requirements even if not in outward appearance. It was ingrained in what they did. But of course, to get to that level you need a great deal of training.

If these deep stances were so effective then boxers would have adopted it years ago. Boxers realize that in order to move freely, keep balance and deliver power we need a certain stance. The YKS is not it IMO. Bruce Lee also criticized deep kung fu stances.

I hear what you're saying - though the YKS Wing Chun doesn't seem to me to have really wide and deep stances, more mid-to-narrow stances that are deep (very sunk, very strong knee-clamping - for want of a better expression). For boxers, well, boxers need a stance and method of moving that works well for boxing. :)

Add in grappling and the stance and movement might be different, adding in kicking and kneeing and again the stance and movement might be different. Add in a weapon... etc, etc.

Regarding Bruce Lee.... well, he had his own way ;) Right or wrong... Enter the Dragon is still Kung-Fu-Movie-Cool.

Graham H

04-08-2013, 03:35 AM

I agree.... kinda. :) I saw this a lot in Xing Yi, where the stance requirements were very strict. When you saw very skilled people performing it looked as though they weren't always sticking to those requirements, but this is misleading. From years and years of stance training they could activate the requirements even if not in outward appearance. It was ingrained in what they did. But of course, to get to that level you need a great deal of training.

Wing Chun is a simple system. Having to reach high levels set by gradings and such in order to be proficient is nonsense. Good for people wallets though.

I hear what you're saying - though the YKS Wing Chun doesn't seem to me to have really wide and deep stances, more mid-to-narrow stances that are deep (very sunk, very strong knee-clamping - for want of a better expression). For boxers, well, boxers need a stance and method of moving that works well for boxing. :)

I didn't say it had wide stances but the very sunk strong knee clamping idea is not good IMO

Add in grappling and the stance and movement might be different, adding in kicking and kneeing and again the stance and movement might be different. Add in a weapon... etc, etc.

Of course movement varies but the stance should be natural. You wouldn't run the 100 meters sat on your backside. :)

Regarding Bruce Lee.... well, he had his own way ;) Right or wrong... Enter the Dragon is still Kung-Fu-Movie-Cool.

Yes he did have his own way but his views on some MA systems and their unnatural behavior was justified.

In order to maximize our potential there is a certain amount of criteria required to function in a fight. We are not animals that have wings, 4 legs, fangs and talons so a lot of Kung Fu systems are full of nonsense based on animal behavior. I like Ving Tsun because its natural for human beings although the stupid human beings have destroyed it :)

BPWT

04-08-2013, 04:43 AM

Wing Chun is a simple system. Having to reach high levels set by gradings and such in order to be proficient is nonsense. Good for people wallets though.

Oh, nothing to do with gradings, regarding XingYi. Just a very deep system. A system like that can't be learned in-depth quickly. You have to process through the system, building on various methods. Takes a long time to be able to do this naturally, as second nature.

For Wing Chun/Wing Tsun... I don't think it is too simple a system. :) Simple in the sense that there's only three open-hand forms, only two weapons to learn (from Yip Man lineage), etc, but not a simple system. Honestly, I think it is much like most other martial arts... there is a lot going on. Xingyi is based on just five fists - but they are very, very detailed. You can learn to use WingTsun fairly quickly, but IMO there is also a lot of info/technology within the system.

In order to maximize our potential there is a certain amount of criteria required to function in a fight. We are not animals that have wings, 4 legs, fangs and talons so a lot of Kung Fu systems are full of nonsense based on animal behavior.

For sure. But to mention XingYi (again, LOL) the animal forms they have are not really about mimicking the animal 'physically', it is more about attributes and mindset. E.g. the hawk form is not about flapping your arms like a bird flaps its wings :), but about Xingyi movements and body methods that have a swooping, high-to-low function, or a tearing type action.

I like Ving Tsun because its natural for human beings although the stupid human beings have destroyed it :)

Don't worry, one day robots and zombies will rule the world. Then the real WC/WT/VT will be restored.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGoi1MSGu64

Graham H

04-08-2013, 04:59 AM

For Wing Chun/Wing Tsun... I don't think it is too simple a system. :) Simple in the sense that there's only three open-hand forms, only two weapons to learn (from Yip Man lineage), etc, but not a simple system. Honestly, I think it is much like most other martial arts... there is a lot going on. Xingyi is based on just five fists - but they are very, very detailed. You can learn to use WingTsun fairly quickly, but IMO there is also a lot of info/technology within the system.

I will have to disagree on that one. Ving Tsun is very simple. It's made up a very few fundamental concepts. The problem is that many lineages have filled the system up with fighting applications. Another big problem is how one thinks. It may seem complicated to some and indeed those who do not understand over complicate things. Ving Tsun can be difficult to teach if the student can't think properly, doesn't train hard and consistently and doesn't have the right amount of contact with their Teacher.

Don't worry, one day robots and zombies will rule the world. Then the real WC/WT/VT will be restored.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGoi1MSGu64

Ha! I agree FOC are funny guys. :D

BPWT

04-08-2013, 05:37 AM

I will have to disagree on that one. Ving Tsun is very simple. It's made up a very few fundamental concepts. The problem is that many lineages have filled the system up with fighting applications. Another big problem is how one thinks. It may seem complicated to some and indeed those who do not understand over complicate things. Ving Tsun can be difficult to teach if the student can't think properly, doesn't train hard and consistently and doesn't have the right amount of contact with their Teacher.

:D;) That might be the heart of it. VT is simple. WT has detail ;):D

Actually, I joke, but the more I read on the forum from you and Kevin, et al, and the more I see the clips from PB lineage, the more I think two things:

1. PB's training is good, honest, VT training and by and large I like the look of it
2. It is a kinda stripped down system - with a heavy focus on certain drills and methods, trained a lot so that the practitioners develop good, solid skills. Maybe not as detailed as other Yip Man lineages, but good stuff.

I don't mean point number 2 as a slight or attack. I mean that his a big emphasis on the basics, and not so much emphasis on more detailed elements. It's not a bad thing, IMO, and it fits with the needs of the user, so to speak.

Ha! I agree FOC are funny guys. :D

Yeah, I love these guys. This one is for Poulperadieux :) Foux Da Fa Fa....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5hrUGFhsXo

Graham H

04-08-2013, 05:42 AM

I see WSL's ideas as simple and functional. I see LT's WT ideas as complicated

So we have different thinking. We already established that. :)

Graham H

04-08-2013, 05:43 AM

2. It is a kinda stripped down system -

Maybe it was this way before your Sigung got his hands on it! Just maybe :D

BPWT

04-08-2013, 05:48 AM

Maybe it was this way before your Sigung got his hands on it! Just maybe :D

Sure, maybe. :)

Or maybe... Yip Man gave WSL what WSL wanted...

Simple VT. Just something to use to fight the other teenagers on the rooftops :D:D:D

And then WSL passed on the same thing to PB.

:):):):)

But yes - we have different methods. Live and let live. ;)

Graham H

04-08-2013, 05:48 AM

Sure, maybe. :)

Or maybe... Yip Man gave WSL what WSL wanted...

Simple VT. Just something to use to fight the other teenagers on the rooftops :D:D:D

And then WSL passed on the same thing to PB.

:):):):)

But yes - we have different methods. Live and let live. ;)

............and we go round and around and around and around..............:D

BPWT

04-08-2013, 05:51 AM

Foux du Fafa... Voila – le conversation dans le parc :D

anerlich

04-08-2013, 06:12 PM

I have noticed a tendency by students in maybe their second year of training really trying to drive that stance as deep as possible, way beyond any reasonable possibility of effective function.

"My stance is really hard to hold and really uncomfortable, so I must be training HARD!"

Not right IMO.

"In all forms of strategy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in everyday life and to make your everyday stance your combat stance...whether you move fast or slow, with large or small steps, your feet must always move as in normal walking..." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings

Of course Musashi isn't PB or WSL or their anointed spokesperson (like GH & KG), but even so his opinion probably still counts for something.

Vajramusti

04-08-2013, 06:33 PM

"In all forms of strategy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in everyday life and to make your everyday stance your combat stance...whether you move fast or slow, with large or small steps, your feet must always move as in normal walking..." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings

Of course Musashi isn't PB or WSL or their anointed spokesperson (like GH & KG), but even so his opinion probably still counts for something.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excellent quote.

k gledhill

04-08-2013, 09:00 PM

Sure, maybe. :)

Or maybe... Yip Man gave WSL what WSL wanted...

Simple VT. Just something to use to fight the other teenagers on the rooftops :D:D:D

And then WSL passed on the same thing to PB.

:):):):)

But yes - we have different methods. Live and let live. ;)

Or maybe LT invented crap to compensate for the obvious lack of understanding he shows. : ) : ): ) : )

GlennR

04-08-2013, 09:03 PM

We are not all attracted to the same woman! :D

Youre attracted to woman?!?!

GlennR

04-08-2013, 09:11 PM

]In SLT YJKYM is a training stance not a fighting stance. We encourage the stance to be a little wider and deeper to put more stress on the legs during the form. The stance during sparring is dependent on the practitioner. We use a stance that is natural so we can maintain good structure and still be mobile and keep good balance. There is no set position albeit the feet must be turned in, the knees in and the waist pushed forward to bring the upper and lower parts of the body together. This allows us to move as one complete unit. Varying heights and limb lengths dictate the stance position. We don't encourage unnatural positions once the stance has been developed. It's illogical.

You could argue that its illogical to not train in the stance you are going to fight in.

Some systems of Wing Chun encourage some very strange stances which reduce the ability to move properly, make quick adjustments and react without making big changes in position.

Depends what thwey are trying to achieve.

Our stance is more akin to a Boxers stance rather than the likes of YKSWC which looks like they have been in a car crash. :)

IMO its a range thing. The YKSWC guys seem to like to fight in a very close range, the WSL guys a bit further out and the TWC guys a little further out again from what ive seen/worked with.

And FWIW there's different stances in boxing depending on you "style" of boxing, it all depends on how you want to get the job done.
Its no different amongst the different lines of WC, just that the WC/VT/WT guys seem to be obsessed with their way being THE way.

Graham H

04-08-2013, 11:32 PM

Youre attracted to woman?!?!

Yes!....and you of course.

GlennR

04-09-2013, 12:04 AM

Yes!....and you of course.

Shucks........ youve made me blush

Graham H

04-09-2013, 01:54 AM

Blush? Is that all? I've knocked one out :)

Phil Redmond

04-10-2013, 05:45 PM