心意六合 (XingYi Liu He)

[YouKnowWho]

In the following clips, you can see a lot of solo drills left and right. If you just pick up any drill and try it yourself, you will get a feeling about "power generation" that you may not have felt before. A good power generation system doesn't need many years to learn. If you just try it for 2 weeks, you should have some good feeling for it. The more that you watch these clips, the more that you will fall in love with TCMA.

Some people may say that you will need an "internal body" to be good in "internal". Just by repeating these drills, you can develop your "internal body" whatever that suppose to mean IMO.

If you look at the 1st clip from 0.01 to 0.16. It's just a simple downward strike. You can see that his whole body is unified as one single unit. When he moves, all body parts move. When he stops, all body parts stops. Also you can see that his body is moveing along with his arm and not just moving his arm without moving his body.

Also interest "pull your opponent arms apart and headbutt" start at 1.24 that you just don't see it commonly appears in most TCMA forms.

I'm not trying to encourage "youtube learning" here. But if you try it, you may have a new opinion about TCMA.

Would you like to take one of these drills and drill it for 2 weeks and share your result and feeling here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b03GTXoxX5Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1bQ6kvMMAY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpOghc5ZZkM

[Bernard]

That downward strike movement you mentioned at 0:1-0:16 looks to like a downward pull of an opponent's arm to me. I think executed it could also be a downward pull into a headbutt too.

[Lucas]

his whole body is unified as one single unit. When he moves, all body parts move. When he stops, all body parts stops.


imo/ime this is what many people refer to as having internal body.

[RenDaHai]

Hey Man,

While in China I trained XinYiLiuHe whenever I had a chance but could only get a little.

There is a lot of it in Henan, but it has never been mainstream.

It is the only style I would do outside of my Shaolin. (Saying that, a large portion of Shaolin is very close to XinYi as Shaolin has its own style of XinYi called XinYiBa and according to some legends XinYi was created by JinLongFeng AT Shaolin, which makes sense since there is so much XinYi in Shaolin, traditional shaolin that is).

It is excellent.

I think it would be very popular in the west if it became mainstream because it is well in keeping with a western view of Martial art. It is extremely aggressive and unmerciful and powerful and simple.


The emphasis is on TieShenKao, that is 'Leaning against the body'. These are strikes done at very close range using the whole body. Shoulder barges, headbutts, elbows, hip strikes etc.

Lots of good stuff

http://www.soku.com/search_video/q_%E5%BF%83%E6%84%8F%E5%85%AD%E5%90%88%E6%8B%B3



Xin Yi is a spear method adapted to the fist. When you watch them training it is easy to see the spear techniques and the standard postures.

The more common xinGyi is a 19th century adaption of XINyi. XinYi is a far more profound name.



The first technique shown in video 1 is also one of the most important. It appears a great deal in old shaolin and is one of the best to practice body power. It is all about crushing with the body. Your arms do not change shape though they move from the shoulder a bit, but the entire power of the strike is by leaning your body suddenly and violently then catch yourself. The key is to be so flexible around the waist, not just leaning foreward but to the side as well.

Be careful and start slow. This technique feels like it is ready to rupture your internal organs as you practice! Also, everyone be careful when practicing the head butts. An old teacher of mine gave himself a stroke by dashing the head too powerfully and suddenly!

[YouKnowWho]

I think XingYi Liu He is in between Baiji and XingYi systems. I also like the aggressive footwork. It should be a very popular system in US if someone can teach it.

[Jimbo]

George Xu used to teach Xinyi Liuhe in San Francisco, but don't know if he does anymore. I was interested in learning it many years ago, but ended up really loving CLF, which was also more convenient to my location.

[SPJ]

I think XingYi Liu He is in between Baiji and XingYi systems. I also like the aggressive footwork. It should be a very popular system in US if someone can teach it.

yes.

There are mixtures of ba ji, tong bei and xing yi.

I like the clips.

some comments in the first clip

1. Pi all the way down

2. Ding zhou or elbow forward and upward

3. Tiger Taming or sitting on tiger with both arms outward and downward from the center line, yes head butt indeed

--

Watch out for the forced breathing (inhale and exhale) and voicing

done wrong you may damage your airway and lung

causing bleeding from your capillaries in the lung

ouch

--

:)

[pazman]

I've been doing much less taolu in the past months and instead breaking them into short stepping drills. I think this approach suits me much better. In the clips shown, I notice some of the exact same sequences as in some of the Shaolin I know, just done with a baji flavor.

Very cool stuff.:)

[YouKnowWho]

I don't know where the discussion may go, but can anyone just:

- pick up one of those drills, train it for a couple weeks, and get benefit out of it?
- intergate this concept into whatever system that he may train?
- apply this kind of power generation in fighting?
- apply this kind of power generation when working on heavy bag?
- ...

[pazman]

Teaching "line drills" in this manner are much more appropriate for practical training these days. I could see some benefit from doing them. I remember when I first took up kickboxing we did tons of line drills, coordination drills, etc. If somebody already had a basic sense of boxing skills I think they could pick them up.

Some you can train on the heavy bag, but some might require some creativity with mitts or body shields. I think you developed sound partner drills involving mitts or body shields, then the techniques could definitely be viable.

[RenDaHai]

I don't know where the discussion may go, but can anyone just:

- pick up one of those drills, train it for a couple weeks, and get benefit out of it?
- intergate this concept into whatever system that he may train?
- apply this kind of power generation in fighting?
- apply this kind of power generation when working on heavy bag?
- ...

I have done it a lot. We have similar ShenFa,

But, I find you cannot integrate it so well, and I'll explain why.

When we do Sanda we essentially use the same 'ShenFa' body method for every move. We are in our neutral stance and when we strike we strike from it and we return to this neutral stance very quickly.

However the power of these traditional techniques lies in Changing stance, attitude, Using different Shenfa. THis is more powerful, but it cannot return to this neutral stance quickly AND often it cannot be done immediatley from this neutral stance. Some techniques are rising, some falling etc. From rising you change to falling, you can't go rising -- neutral---falling---neutral, because for the falling technique to work you need to be in the 'high' attitude, you can't do it from neutral.


Often people try to integrate it with sanda and they try to use it from the neutral and return to neutral, and often it is disasterous because this is not how it is designed. It requires learning a few different Body methods so you can use power from every position.

Put this way it seems very complicated but it really doesn't have to be.

It is very powerful, but you have to change your entire style.

Certainly you could integrate it well if you just used it for very decisive moves.

[YouKnowWho]

Good post, RendaHai!


But, I find you cannot integrate it so well, ...

I feel the same way too. The most concern that I have is, In

- training, your body "push" your arm.
- combat, your body "chase" your arm.

In combat, it's better to hit your opponent with 50% power than to use 100% power and hit into the thin air (miss it). Since speed is critical, sometime when we hit our opponent, the power may not be generated 100%.


Certainly you could integrate it well if you just used it for very decisive moves.
Agree! If your body is already in the Fajin starting position, it's natural to do it.

[Robinhood]

I don't think you get internal from emphasizing external,you just get better external, not internal.

[-N-]

I don't know where the discussion may go, but can anyone just:

- pick up one of those drills, train it for a couple weeks, and get benefit out of it?
- intergate this concept into whatever system that he may train?
- apply this kind of power generation in fighting?
- apply this kind of power generation when working on heavy bag?
- ...

Your Mantis already has those elements and that IS the way you're supposed to train them to be usable.

Yes, use on the heavy bag too.

[RenDaHai]

- training, your body "push" your arm.
- combat, your body "chase" your arm.


Well put, this sums it up exactly. Thats a good way to think about it.

I think your right, the push method can (and should) be used if you find yourself in the right position. I find it is also very good in complete defence and counter, when the opponent is much more aggressive than you.

But when we box sanda most of the time we are cautious with every strike and always try to break contact. When we fight like this we can only use 'Chase' method effectively. The other is too slow and committed. It is far better in this place to, as you say, use 50% relaxed power and not leave yourself open. Once a powerful exchange of punches begins, the push method can be good. But much of a sanda match is circling around looking for an opening. During this phase it would be dangerous to use 'push'.

I personally train both but I separate the roles. Often I will have my opponent attack me relentlessly and I only defend, never initiate. Then we switch role. When I attack I always 'Chase' my hands and when I defend and counter I often 'Push' them. But I don't do defend and attack together. I treat them almost as different styles. I know this is unusual, but I have my reasons.

[xinyidizi]

However the power of these traditional techniques lies in Changing stance, attitude, Using different Shenfa. THis is more powerful, but it cannot return to this neutral stance quickly AND often it cannot be done immediatley from this neutral stance. Some techniques are rising, some falling etc. From rising you change to falling, you can't go rising -- neutral---falling---neutral, because for the falling technique to work you need to be in the 'high' attitude, you can't do it from neutral

In Xinyi there is rising, falling and middle power generation and also the range of movements gets much smaller and more practical in the small frame which makes it easier and faster to shift between them. For demonstrations people usually do the exaggerated big frame moves that are meant for improving power generation or as you said very rare decisive situations. There are many soft moves, openning moves and fighting drills(not paida) that are not usually shown in demos and I haven't seen most of them on the internet.

[xinyidizi]

I don't think you get internal from emphasizing external,you just get better external, not internal.

The external moves of the IMA like xinyi help the internal development.

[mawali]

I don't think you get internal from emphasizing external,you just get better external, not internal.

But that is exactly the foundation of what is 'internal'.
New broom sweeps clean but old brown knows the corners!:D

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think you get internal from emphasizing external,you just get better external, not internal.

The XingYi (5 elements) is "internal". The Liu He (6 harmonies) is also "internal". I just don't see XingYi (internal) + Liu He (internal) = external.

[xinyidizi]

I think the thing that makes the three big internal arts internal is their highly refined circular and spiral movements that after enough practice unify the body as a whole moving with dantian at the centre and result in maximum power as well as speed with minimum effort. I think standing and sitting meditation(qigong) can also help in building internal power but for internal martial artists it doesn't need to be a priority because by practicing these spiral opening and closing movements they are already opening their meridians and building up Qi.

Xinyiliuhe people are usually more practical (or at least they are supposed to be). The number of the old generation practitioners who are healthy and can kick ass in their nineties is proof for their internal power and it's interesting that most of them have never practiced any form of Qigong other than their normal Xinyi moves.


@YKH: I think you should translate 心意 to XinYi because it always tends to get confused with 形意. Xinyiliuhe has its own version of 五行拳 moves but it shouldn't be confused with Xingyi's 5 elements.

[RenDaHai]

On a side note,

When I trained some XinYiLiuHe the master said that Wushu used to be classified into 3 types of styles, Soldier styles, civilian styles, spiritual styles.

Of these XinYi was a 'soldier style'.

If I remember correctly the motto was something like:

'Xian you sha di zhi xin, hou you dong shou zhi yi'

Which translates roughly to;

'Before even moving your hand, you must be resolved to murder the opponent'