Yiquan/internal sparring

[pazman]

Since there's a Yiquan history thread going on I decided to look up some Yiquan sparring, which there is a surprising amount of on the web given that in most ICMA, free-sparring clips nearly non-existent.

Let's talk about this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsNZGWFVyjw

What do you think about this clip? What's good? What's bad? What can you see in this clip that represents internal martial arts?

A couple of things to keep in mind:
1) They are hobbyists, not professional fighters.
2) It's clearly friendly/practice.

[YouKnowWho]

All "internal" guys should spar like this. When you see an opening, you want to land your fist on your opponent's face. If you know how to use jab, cross, hook, uppercut, you don't need anything else. The "striking art" just can't be simplier than that.

Good clip, right attitude, right direction, ... If people can spar 15 rounds daily like this for 3 years, they will be good fighters for the rest of their life.

[Robinhood]

Looks like just boxing practice .

[mawali]

Since there's a Yiquan history thread going on I decided to look up some Yiquan sparring, which there is a surprising amount of on the web given that in most ICMA, free-sparring clips nearly non-existent.

Let's talk about this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsNZGWFVyjw

What do you think about this clip? What's good? What's bad? What can you see in this clip that represents internal martial arts?

A couple of things to keep in mind:
1) They are hobbyists, not professional fighters.
2) It's clearly friendly/practice.

I am biased but all I see is boxing. It is a good workout, you build up sweat and perhaps a lot healthier than the person who just sits around.:D
I realize I am a fool because I feel to understanding the concept of "internal sparring" and I remain a fool!

[pazman]

Looks like just boxing practice .

拳 means boxing.

[Miqi]

Since there's a Yiquan history thread going on I decided to look up some Yiquan sparring, which there is a surprising amount of on the web given that in most ICMA, free-sparring clips nearly non-existent.

Let's talk about this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsNZGWFVyjw

What do you think about this clip? What's good? What's bad? What can you see in this clip that represents internal martial arts?

A couple of things to keep in mind:
1) They are hobbyists, not professional fighters.
2) It's clearly friendly/practice.

Hi Pazman,
I just checked your profile and I see that you are a san da coach - so it would be useful and interesting to hear what you think of this clip.

[pazman]

Hi Pazman,
I just checked your profile and I see that you are a san da coach - so it would be useful and interesting to hear what you think of this clip.

Well, the clip isn't Sanda, and I don't know very much about Yiquan, but here are my 2 cents:

I think for hobbyists practicing at local school, it's pretty cool. The lady in the white shirt has some good forward pressure. Having sparred xingyiquan people I've always felt that same sort of forward pressure from them. I'd have to agree with Mr. Wang (YouKnowWho).

There were some stepping and hand methods I saw that I wouldn't do myself, but I'm unfamiliar with Yiquan.

[YouKnowWho]

Looks like just boxing practice .
Why should TCMA have to be robotic and stylized? As far as I remember, the last "boxer rebellion" happened in China. When you see an opening (leak), your hand go throught that openion (leak). That's TCMA.

All boxing techniques exists in TCMA:

jab - 直拳(Zhi Quan)
cross - 平拳(Ping Quan)
hook - 圈捶(Quan Chui)
uppercut - 措捶(Cuo Chui)

Why a jab, cross combo always followed by hook, uppercut? Because a

- straight line attack will create an opening for a circular attack.
- horizontal circular attack (hook) will create an opening for a vertical circular attack (uppercut), or the ther way around.

There is no better hand striking combo that's better than right jab, left cross followed by:

- right hook, left uppercut, or
- right uppercut, left hook, or
- right hook, left hook, or
- right uppercut, left uppercut.

[Robinhood]

As far as I remember, the last "boxer rebellion" happened in China. When you see an opening (leak), your hand go throught that openion (leak). That's TCMA.

All boxing techniques exists in TCMA:

jab - 直拳(Zhi Quan)
cross - 平拳(Ping Quan)
hook - 圈捶(Quan Chui)
uppercut - 措捶(Cuo Chui)

Why a jab, cross combo always followed by hook, uppercut? Because a

- straight line attack will create an opening for a circular attack.
- horizontal circular attack (hook) will create an opening for a vertical circular attack (uppercut), or the ther way around.

There is no better hand striking combo that's better than right jab, left cross followed by:

- right hook, left uppercut, or
- right uppercut, left hook, or
- right hook, left hook, or
- right uppercut, left uppercut.

Thanks for your description of boxing practice, do you have a description of internal practice too. ?

[YouKnowWho]

Thanks for your description of boxing practice, do you have a description of internal practice too. ?

You have just asked the wrong person. I don't believe in "internal". In this forum nobody knows "internal" better than you do. It's your turn to share your "internal practice" knowledge and experience.

[Robinhood]

You have just asked the wrong person. I don't believe in "internal". In this forum nobody knows "internal" better than you do. It's your turn to share your "internal practice" knowledge and experience.

OK, I don't see much internal in that clip, maybe some scattered internal spurts of intention , but nothing continuous or controlled that would be considered internal application.

The clip is just a one way confidence building session to make the women be aggressive , aggressive does have internal intent , but to me there is a lot more to it than just internal intent, ( efficient use of intent is a key factor in application , like being able to focus your intention to only where it will give the best return value, not through throwing out a little everywhere and hoping something hits, that is not efficient , it will waste energy and give small returns on your investment.
But if you have a lot of money to throw around, that way does give some return, but also can give a lot of loss. The guy with the inside information will make a killing .

[Miqi]

Well, the clip isn't Sanda, and I don't know very much about Yiquan, but here are my 2 cents:

I think for hobbyists practicing at local school, it's pretty cool. The lady in the white shirt has some good forward pressure. Having sparred xingyiquan people I've always felt that same sort of forward pressure from them. I'd have to agree with Mr. Wang (YouKnowWho).

There were some stepping and hand methods I saw that I wouldn't do myself, but I'm unfamiliar with Yiquan.

Thanks for the input, Pazman. Talking about yiquan videos generally, two possible points of constructive analysis spring to mind about yiquan sparring videos. One is that the head seems not well guarded enough, and two is how often people just turn their backs and give in once their basic guard is breached:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wseNknZ6yMA

That happens just too much to be chance - so, scientifically, that must surely be an area of possible further improvement.

Finally, I always think low kicks might be more usefully employed.

These are just generalisations of course.

Yiquan is supposed to have a philosophy of scientific criticism and progress - so, I hope most people could agree on these constructive criticisms.

In terms of 'internal' sparring, that's something that's beyond my knowledge. Yao Zong Xun said that the proper, fight based wushu of the past was more like muay thai than anything else. If anything, more should learned from boxing - in my view - especially about defence. Wang was quite happy to learn from boxing.

[pazman]

There are many ways to spar with your students. Sometimes you want them aggressive, other times you want them to work on avoidance, and other times you get them to make valid counters. Getting seasoned athletes to be aggressive isn't much of a problem, but to get the new girl or guy who just wants to practice as a hobby to be aggressive can be a challenge.

Robinhood, how can I tell if I am seeing internal or "just boxing"? I've practiced "internal" martial arts but I've felt the whole internal/external thing was a false dichotomy.


----


I remember drinking tea with one of my teachers in Wuhan and he was trying to explain to me "internal".

Teacher: Chinese martial arts are much different than others. The body must be relaxed.

Me: Oh, yeah I know. My kickboxing coach in Japan was always trying to get me to relax.

Teacher: No! It's different! In other martial arts, the power comes from big muscles. In China, we use our whole body power.

Me: I guess similar to boxing, when my coach tells me to let my punch come from my hips and feet.

Teacher: No, no, no! This is special only to internal martial arts!

[Miqi]

OK, I don't see much internal in that clip, maybe some scattered internal spurts of intention , but nothing continuous or controlled that would be considered internal application.

The clip is just a one way confidence building session to make the women be aggressive , aggressive does have internal intent , but to me there is a lot more to it than just internal intent, ( efficient use of intent is a key factor in application , like being able to focus your intention to only where it will give the best return value, not through throwing out a little everywhere and hoping something hits, that is not efficient , it will waste energy and give small returns on your investment.
But if you have a lot of money to throw around, that way does give some return, but also can give a lot of loss. The guy with the inside information will make a killing .

Hi Robinhood,
Yes - I think that's reasonable comment. I suppose the question is, for self defence, especially for a woman, is it a good strategy to have a burst of explosive aggression to try and back someone off quickly?

Much respect to the lady in the video - she reminds of that lady in Kung Fu Hustle!

[Robinhood]

Hi Robinhood,
Yes - I think that's reasonable comment. I suppose the question is, for self defence, especially for a woman, is it a good strategy to have a burst of explosive aggression to try and back someone off quickly?

Much respect to the lady in the video - she reminds of that lady in Kung Fu Hustle!

Nothing wrong with it, just different way of training, it depends on what you want to develop.

[YouKnowWho]

Let's exampling whether "internal" sparring is practical or not. Let's have a simple definition of "internal" as

- You use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm.
- Your body function as one single unit. When you move, all body parts move. When you stop, all body parts stop.

If you use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm, since you have to move your waist first before the power can be sent to your arm, there is always a small delay between your waist motion and your arm motion. Can you afford that small "delay" in combat?

I has tried to let my waist to push/pull my arms. This way my opponent can only see my body movement but can't see my arms movement. It's good to express Shenfa and feel great too. But when I see my opponent's opening, I start to move my waist, when my waist pull/push my arm and my arm push/pull my hand, my opponent's opening is already closed.

In the following clip between 0.58 to 1.10, you can see CXW faiji in combat speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrF_o9BdJ4M

Is CXW moving fast enough? Within 12 seconds timeframe, he did 14 moves. That's average 12/14 = 0.86 second per move. To me, this kind of speed is far from "combat speed". If CXW's opponent only drops his guard for 3/4 (0.75) second, CXW's punch will miss his opponent's head.

[Robinhood]

Let's exampling whether "internal" sparring is practical or not. Let's have a simple definition of "internal" as

- You use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm.
- Your body function as one single unit. When you move, all body parts move. When you stop, all body parts stop.

If you use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm, since you have to move your waist first before the power can be sent to your arm, there is always a small delay between your waist motion and your arm motion. Can you afford that small "delay" in combat?

I has tried to let my waist to push/pull my arms. This way my opponent can only see my body movement but can't see my arms movement. It's good to express Shenfa and feel great too. But when I see my opponent's opening, I start to move my waist, when my waist pull/push my arm and my arm push/pull my hand, my opponent's opening is already closed.

In the following clip between 0.58 to 1.10, you can see CXW faiji in combat speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrF_o9BdJ4M

Is CXW moving fast enough? Within 12 seconds timeframe, he did 14 moves. That's average 12/14 = 0.86 second per move. To me, this kind of speed is far from "combat speed". If CXW's opponent only drops his guard for 3/4 (0.75) second, CXW's punch will miss his opponent's head.


I think you are trying to compare 2 different things, that are not compariable.

Sparring at body level is not sparring using internal, when contact is made, internal will then be applyable, internal doing work, not external moving.

[YouKnowWho]

Sparring at body level is not sparring using internal, when contact is made, internal will then be applyable, internal doing work, not external moving.
Are you saying

- All the footwork, body movement (Shenfa), arm movement are all "external".
- When you throw a punch, it starts as external. The moment that your fist "contact" your opponent's face, it suddently turns into "internal".

[Robinhood]

Are you saying

- All the footwork, body movement (Shenfa), arm movement are all "external".
- When you throw a punch, it starts as external. The moment that your fist "contact" your opponent's face, it suddently turns into "internal".

No, not really, if you move, you can be moving externally or internally, it depends what is driving it.

Energy can flow in and out, if you can only flow outward, you are only external, if you can flow energy in then you can use internal too.

[YouKnowWho]

you can be moving externally or internally, it depends what is driving it.

If you just walk "3 steps - left foot, right foot, left foot", what's the "external" way of walking and what's the "internal" way of walking? How do you start your 1st step of your "internal" walking? What drive it?

[Robinhood]

If you just walk "3 steps - left foot, right foot, left foot", what's the "external" way of walking and what's the "internal" way of walking? How do you start your 1st step of your "internal" walking? What drive it?

Its in all how you use your mind, and if the body responds to the mind when trying to move using intent. If the body is in the wrong state, like out of balance and not center intention maintained, moving internally probably will not be an option.

[Matthew]

Let's have a simple definition of "internal" as

- You use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm.
- Your body function as one single unit. When you move, all body parts move. When you stop, all body parts stop.

That's standard basics for most Chinese art practice (especially those called "external") given how important dantian spot is as our human center of gravity.

Your second part seems a bit vague though - move as one unit?

I see a couple interpretations possibly arising from your terms - one is that the body moves with a single center of gravity (as opposed to multiple as in the taiji term "double weighted"), another possibility is that you mean with all parts of the body supporting the moving part. That would be moving 'as a synchronized' unit - which is also vague.

All of that has little to do with internal Nei Gong practice.

You may be confusing the terms Internal/External with different chinese terms. (Nei Jia/Wai Jia 内家／外嫁 which are geographic references, and Nei gong/ Wai Gong 内功／外功 which are practice references).

So many people on this forum can't figure out the chinese characters for these two different terms - both of which can be incompletely said to be "Internal / External"

First we need to know what it is we're talking about - then we can talk about what it means.


If you use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm, since you have to move your waist first before the power can be sent to your arm, there is always a small delay between your waist motion and your arm motion. Can you afford that small "delay" in combat?

No matter how fast you can move your hands or waist - there is always someone faster. Understanding positioning and strategy is more important that depending on speed.

Speed matters, but it is less important than positioning in self defense. A slow fighter can look like a fast fighter if he has better positioning than someone who uses excessive movement (even if the person is significantly faster).

[YouKnowWho]

Understanding positioning and strategy is more important that depending on speed.
This is the most common execuses for "internal" guys who think speed and power are not important. What if your opponent also

- understands position and strategy, but he is faster than you?
- be able to use 4 oz to against 1000 lb, but he can deliever 1000 lb and you can't?

If your opponent holds a knife and stab at your chest within 1/2 second. If you have to use 3/4 second to dodge it, you will be dead.

[Matthew]

This is the most common execuses for "internal" guys who think speed and power are not important.

Okay, but what does that have to do with positioning having importance over speed? What is "Internal" that you keep mentioning? Is it one of the Chinese terms I mentioned?



What if your opponent also

- understands position and strategy, but he is faster than you?
Depends on what we are talking about by position and strategy. And a multitude of other factors (how many other attackers, how well you slept and how clear the tracks of your mind are the moment of the incident, what weapons he/they have, etc etc etc.)

Your question is really way too general of a question to be of use beyond engaging the thought process behind self-defense.



- be able to use 4 oz to against 1000 lb, but he can deliever 1000 lb and you can't?

How is his delivery of it? With his elbow only?

What if I can deliver 999 lb force with my finger tips? would that be better than his theoretical delivery of 1001 pounds with only his shoulder? All too vague and detached from a single flash of an eye.

Again - seems a bit too general, but may help people who don't think about these things with "thought provoking"




If your opponent holds a knife and stab at your chest within 1/2 second. If you have to use 3/4 second to dodge it, you will be dead.

Seems a bit slow with a knife - but if you cannot deflect the attack while more efficiently countering - then yes his speed beat your understanding of positioning.

Whether or not this single theoretical scenario is true or would play out does not indicate what is most important to practice when training for self defense though.

Let's turn your scenario around to show just how shallow it really outlines the need for any one trait (no matter if it is speed, positioning, etc.)



If your opponent holds a knife and stab at your chest within 1/2 second. Even if you can 1/4 second dodge it, you will be dead if he has enough strategic positioning to have closed off your only gates to "dodge" out from.

Just goes to show that generalizations and theoretical scenarios don't provide enough evidence to train purely based on one or two of them - although they obviously provide thought-provoking situations to discuss.

[Robinhood]

This is the most common execuses for "internal" guys who think speed and power are not important. What if your opponent also

- understands position and strategy, but he is faster than you?
- be able to use 4 oz to against 1000 lb, but he can deliever 1000 lb and you can't?

If your opponent holds a knife and stab at your chest within 1/2 second. If you have to use 3/4 second to dodge it, you will be dead.

What if, what if, ........I wonder why , trying to remember every condition and counter will never work, if you have to think about what you can do, you will be late every time.

You need to be able to react with out thinking about it, if you are doing internal it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much.

Thinking works for training purposes because you can slow everything down and try to reprogram the body.

[YouKnowWho]

This is what you have said.


Speed matters, but it is less important than positioning in self defense.

This is what I have said,


What if your opponent also understands position and strategy, but he is faster than you?

To say that speed is less important than ... seems a bit too general.


if you are doing internal it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much.

I'll say the opposite - If you are doing "external", it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much.

"Internal" guys like to talk about "意气力(Yi Qi Li)", external guys don't.

[Robinhood]

This is what you have said.



This is what I have said,



To say that speed is less important than ... seems a bit too general.



I'll say the opposite - If you are doing "external", it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much.

"Internal" guys like to talk about "意气力(Yi Qi Li)", external guys don't.

How can you weigh the difference if you say internal does not exists . ?, if you could do both, then you can compare , only knowing one side does not give you first hand knowledge to compare. What ever reacts faster is probably internal reaction anyway not external. Having time to think then react is more external reaction,do you drive your car externally or internally .?, you don't tell your arm and foot every little correction consciously thinking about them.

External is using Li.

[Matthew]

To say that speed is less important than ... seems a bit too general.


I'll say the opposite - If you are doing "external", it will be a lot easier to react without thinking much.

I've already twice asked you to define Internal/External terms in Chinese so we can understand what you're trying to say.


A good roofer first learns how to hold a hammer, then how to hold a nail, then how to hit the nail while positioning body and mind to move to the next nail. Through regular practicing of the basics - he will develop speed and power in his work.


Positioning (of self/posture first- then in relation to others) is a strong foundation to start - speed and power alone don't have principles - and so they depend on positioning.

When a strong foundation is laid, speed and power are naturally developed.



"Internal" guys like to talk about "意气力(Yi Qi Li)", external guys don't.


Contrary to your claims, I know people who identify as "External (外功）practice" and "Internal (内功) practice“ who use all these terms. Even many Chinese teachers I've seen on youtube use these terms no matter what distinctions are drawn。

In fact, depending on how these terms you put are translated - I've seen many classic boxing teachers even talk about these terms 意气力(Yi Qi Li) - in fact most martial arts talk about them.


Further - It is just interesting with all your years of practice that you generalize and label arbitrarily-designated groups.. all while you can't even define in Chinese terms the very terms you are using to label these "groups".
-----------------

Isn't this thread about Yi Quan (Intent Style Boxing) of Wang Xiang Zhai and sparring of his disciples? If you can't define Internal or External - why not simply discuss what practices Yi Quan has that could benefit others?

[YouKnowWho]

I've already twice asked you to define Internal/External terms in Chinese so we can understand what you're trying to say.

I already did.


Let's have a simple definition of "internal" as

- You use your waist (Dantian) to push/pull your arm.
- Your body function as one single unit. When you move, all body parts move. When you stop, all body parts stop.
There is no "external" and "internal" but the "right way to do thing" and the "wrong way to do thing". Even the right way to do thing such as to let your body to push your arm will need to be modified in combat in order to gain speed.

Let me borrow Adam Hsu's definition here.

http://imageshack.us/a/img534/2232/internalb.jpg

Translated:

The word "internal" was invented by a none TCMA guy (a scholar) Hwang Zung-Si at the end of the Ming dynasty.

External is a term to look down upon others. At the end of the Ching dynasty, XingYi and Bagua guys treated every other styles as "flower fist". Later on they accepted Taiji as one of them. ... Nobody want to be "external" ... The difference between external and internal is not the difference between styles but the difference between training level ... Every style when you started it, you are training external. When you get into detail, you are training internal ... Since all TCMA systems take this path, there is no such thing as "internal" and "external".

Adam Hsu and I share the same views on this subject.

[Dragonzbane76]

at least they have gloves on and going with a little intent. Half the trouble with most "traditional" schools these days, they don't pad up and go with some commitment.

[Matthew]

There is no "external" and "internal"
They both exist - IME they have overlap and are not mutually exclusive practice methods as many on this forum suggest - but there are definitely internal and external practices （内功／外功）



Even the right way to do thing such as to let your body to push your arm will need to be modified in combat in order to gain speed.

I won't comment as I don't practice in your lineage of Xing Yi Quan (that you may be misquoting here either way). Either way - if you are truly practicing Xin Yi (心意）, the predecessor of Xing Yi, it's said that subconscious/habitual and intentional movement are united - so how can there be a delay of a hand or a body? If united, what is there to delay?



Let me borrow Adam Hsu's definition here.

http://imageshack.us/a/img534/2232/internalb.jpg

Ahh - okay finally you define it in Chinese terms.

Note that you are using 内家／外家 (Nei Jia and Wai Jia) terminology which is obvious are not practice-related terms. I don't think your terminology (NeiJia/WaiJia) are even relevant when discussing YiQuan sparring methodology. They are merely geographic/locational indicators and not practice methods.


IT is possible you have confused the terms you are using with those others here are using - which is "Internal and External Practices" (Nei Gong 内功 / Wai Gong 外功）

NeiGong (not Nei Jia) may be relevant to the thread though, as YiQuan focuses on some varied form(s) of NeiGong training according to Wang Xiang Zhai's disciple son:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTM2MDI2ODcy.html

[YouKnowWho]

if you are truly practicing Xin Yi (心意）, the predecessor of Xing Yi, it's said that subconscious/habitual and intentional movement are united - so how can there be a delay of a hand or a body? If united, what is there to delay?

Unless you can move your hip, knee, foot, shoulder, elbow, hand all at the same time, as long as your:

- hip coordinate with your shoulder,
- knee coordinate with your elbow,
- foot coordinate with your hand,

there will be some delay between your shoulder and your hand. If you look at CXW's clip, you can see that delay.

[Dragonzbane76]

I don't believe in "internal".

agree with you on that. It's a modern term in practice.

[Robinhood]

I already did.


There is no "external" and "internal" but the "right way to do thing" and the "wrong way to do thing". Even the right way to do thing such as to let your body to push your arm will need to be modified in combat in order to gain speed.

Let me borrow Adam Hsu's definition here.

http://imageshack.us/a/img534/2232/internalb.jpg

Translated:

The word "internal" was invented by a none TCMA guy (a scholar) Hwang Zung-Si at the end of the Ming dynasty.

External is a term to look down upon others. At the end of the Ching dynasty, XingYi and Bagua guys treated every other styles as "flower fist". Later on they accepted Taiji as one of them. ... Nobody want to be "external" ... The difference between external and internal is not the difference between styles but the difference between training level ... Every style when you started it, you are training external. When you get into detail, you are training internal ... Since all TCMA systems take this path, there is no such thing as "internal" and "external".

Adam Hsu and I share the same views on this subject.

I don't know what you call detail, but most styles don't even get close to practicing internal, maybe they don't have what you call detail, I think I have seen some clips of Adam even trying to explain his view of internal

[SavvySavage]

Since there's a Yiquan history thread going on I decided to look up some Yiquan sparring, which there is a surprising amount of on the web given that in most ICMA, free-sparring clips nearly non-existent.

Let's talk about this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsNZGWFVyjw

What do you think about this clip? What's good? What's bad? What can you see in this clip that represents internal martial arts?

A couple of things to keep in mind:
1) They are hobbyists, not professional fighters.
2) It's clearly friendly/practice.

All this clip is showing is a man who is too shy to hit his female sparring partner in a boxing match.

[SavvySavage]

Since there's a Yiquan history thread going on I decided to look up some Yiquan sparring, which there is a surprising amount of on the web given that in most ICMA, free-sparring clips nearly non-existent.

Let's talk about this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsNZGWFVyjw

What do you think about this clip? What's good? What's bad? What can you see in this clip that represents internal martial arts?

A couple of things to keep in mind:
1) They are hobbyists, not professional fighters.
2) It's clearly friendly/practice.

All this clip is showing is a man who is too shy to hit his female sparring partner in a boxing match. It's hard for men and women to do this kind of training together. In terms of internal sparring...it looks a lot like external sparring.

[Miqi]

[2] Interviewer: What is the basis of combat science?

Wang Xiangzhai: What is, after all, the basic principle of combat science? Different people have different answers to this question, but studying boxing routines, forms of movements, fixed techniques, and training hits and beats, all fall into the category of superficial, and although the boxing routines and forms of movements have been popular already for a long time, they are, indeed, extremely harmful to the people.

[3] Interviewer: ‘Xingyi’, ‘Taiji’, ‘Bagua’, and ‘Tongbei’ are considered to be schools of internal boxing, what are the differences of all these branches?

Wang Xiangzhai: People often say that ‘Xingyi’, ‘Taiji’, ‘Bagua’ and ‘Tongbei’ are internal styles, I do not know how the names of internal and external came about, so I cannot comment on that.


Source: http://taijijourney.blogspot.co.uk/2005/07/interview-with-mr-wang-xiangzhai.html

[pazman]

All this clip is showing is a man who is too shy to hit his female sparring partner in a boxing match. It's hard for men and women to do this kind of training together. In terms of internal sparring...it looks a lot like external sparring.

Maybe I'm reading too much into the video, but I get the feeling that either the man is the coach and he's eliciting a certain response from his student, or they are playing roles. This is more common than you think in gyms. I'm not exactly sure why you think it's difficult for men and women to train together, but I know maybe in some traditional environments there might be a lot of gender discrimination, possibly due to the fact that the men there are insecure in their own masculinity.

[pazman]

I don't know what you call detail, but most styles don't even get close to practicing internal, maybe they don't have what you call detail, I think I have seen some clips of Adam even trying to explain his view of internal

Hardwork, you seem to allude to internal, but whenever I read your posts I'm not sure exactly what sort of definition you got going on in your head. When Mr. Wang mentions internal, six harmonies, etc, it's much more lucid, and is more in line with what I've been told by "internal" masters, and read about in my own time. Who did you train under? This might clue in a little better as to where you are coming from.

[Dragonzbane76]

Hardwork, you seem to allude to internal, but whenever I read your posts I'm not sure exactly what sort of definition you got going on in your head.

:) everyone else knows he is, no use playing games.

[Robinhood]

Hardwork, you seem to allude to internal, but whenever I read your posts I'm not sure exactly what sort of definition you got going on in your head. When Mr. Wang mentions internal, six harmonies, etc, it's much more lucid, and is more in line with what I've been told by "internal" masters, and read about in my own time. Who did you train under? This might clue in a little better as to where you are coming from.

I am not Hardwork !, that morron in NY started saying that because he has no answers for anything.

I see internal the same as books like Tai Chi Classics and most other books on Tai Chi, most internal descriptions seem to be saying the same thing, all though English translations are not very good in all the books.

[Miqi]

Hi Robinhood,

Can you provide some videos that demonstrate the ideas you are discussing - it doesn't have to be of you, but it would make it much clearer what you are talking about. Otherwise, we're all condemned to endless argument over our misunderstandings of how each of us is defining terms.


*Personally, I think internal and external can have many different meanings. Old Wang rejected the terms. Old Yao thought 'internal' meant 'Chinese' and 'external' meant 'foreign'. Personally, I see internal as meaning to learn from intuitive practice, to unfold your personal ability, and external to mean copying other people (a combination of which is required, in my view). I don't, for example, connect 'internal' to 'relaxed, whole body power' - but I do strive to achieve the latter and accept its reality as a qualitatively peculiar shen fa. And I know that some people do connect that practice with 'internal' - it doesn't matter to me how people describe what they do, only what they can actually do.

[Robinhood]

Hi Robinhood,

Can you provide some videos that demonstrate the ideas you are discussing - it doesn't have to be of you, but it would make it much clearer what you are talking about. Otherwise, we're all condemned to endless argument over our misunderstandings of how each of us is defining terms.


*Personally, I think internal and external can have many different meanings. Old Wang rejected the terms. Old Yao thought 'internal' meant 'Chinese' and 'external' meant 'foreign'. Personally, I see internal as meaning to learn from intuitive practice, to unfold your personal ability, and external to mean copying other people (a combination of which is required, in my view). I don't, for example, connect 'internal' to 'relaxed, whole body power' - but I do strive to achieve the latter and accept its reality as a qualitatively peculiar shen fa. And I know that some people do connect that practice with 'internal' - it doesn't matter to me how people describe what they do, only what they can actually do.

It is as I see it, and also written and described in many books, the mind leads the chi, it is as simple as that, if you have chi built to a certain level, and you can lead it with the mind in application , then it becomes clearer , if you can't do it yourself, watching someone else do it will not make it any clearer or help you understand what is going on any better than before.

[Miqi]

It is as I see it, and also written and described in many books, the mind leads the chi, it is as simple as that, if you have chi built to a certain level, and you can lead it with the mind in application , then it becomes clearer , if you can't do it yourself, watching someone else do it will not make it any clearer or help you understand what is going on any better than before.

Dear Robinhood,
I won't press you to reveal your level.

Hmm... I'm not saying that 'leading the qi' isn't real, or that it isn't invisible - but what it leads to must be visible, or it has no point in martial arts. Whatever the method, whatever the language, whatever it says in the books, it must lead to ability of some sort. I think I know you mean - but if it isn't visible, then I very much don't. This is one example of one, style specific, correct slow movement training in Chinese wushu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOE9a48aYi

It is not invisible, and I recongise the correctness of this movement when I see it. Is this what you mean? Or something else?

[Robinhood]

Dear Robinhood,
I won't press you to reveal your level.

Hmm... I'm not saying that 'leading the qi' isn't real, or that it isn't invisible - but what it leads to must be visible, or it has no point in martial arts. Whatever the method, whatever the language, whatever it says in the books, it must lead to ability of some sort. I think I know you mean - but if it isn't visible, then I very much don't. This is one example of one, style specific, correct slow movement training in Chinese wushu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOE9a48aYi

It is not invisible, and I recongise the correctness of this movement when I see it. Is this what you mean? Or something else?

No, that's not it, that is body level mechanics. I have seen some videos that show results, but I don't have time right how to look for them.

[Robinhood]

Dear Robinhood,
I won't press you to reveal your level.

Hmm... I'm not saying that 'leading the qi' isn't real, or that it isn't invisible - but what it leads to must be visible, or it has no point in martial arts. Whatever the method, whatever the language, whatever it says in the books, it must lead to ability of some sort. I think I know you mean - but if it isn't visible, then I very much don't. This is one example of one, style specific, correct slow movement training in Chinese wushu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOE9a48aYi

It is not invisible, and I recongise the correctness of this movement when I see it. Is this what you mean? Or something else?


Your first video is not there.

[Miqi]

How odd - I must have posted it incorrectly. Here is another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKEpsJUBnqE


It would be very useful if you find a video that shows what you're talking about.

[Robinhood]

How odd - I must have posted it incorrectly. Here is another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKEpsJUBnqE


It would be very useful if you find a video that shows what you're talking about.

That shows someone moving around and also moving his internal around. Any kind of movement can be lead by internal movement, the key for MA is can you use it in application. ?, effectively. ?

Here is a clip of Sam Tam applying internal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgARot3_zXc&NR=1&feature=windscreen

:)

[Robinhood]

How odd - I must have posted it incorrectly. Here is another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKEpsJUBnqE


It would be very useful if you find a video that shows what you're talking about.


I just found this one, this is good example of application

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF8CDgQtRY8&NR=1&feature=endscreen

[Miqi]

I just found this one, this is good example of application

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF8CDgQtRY8&NR=1&feature=endscreen

Dear Robinhood,
Thanks for sharing this. I'm afraid that what I do is so different to this that there is no common ground between our two different understandings of Chinese martial arts.

However, it sounds like you've achieved what we all hope to achieve in this martial arts world - a good level of ability and understanding according to what you find to be of value - so I wish you well in your future training.

[Robinhood]

Dear Robinhood,
Thanks for sharing this. I'm afraid that what I do is so different to this that there is no common ground between our two different understandings of Chinese martial arts.

However, it sounds like you've achieved what we all hope to achieve in this martial arts world - a good level of ability and understanding according to what you find to be of value - so I wish you well in your future training.


I think all is common still , the movement is just done on the inside planes and transmitted to opponent through the contact point.

[wenshu]

Here is a clip of Sam Tam applying internal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgARot3_zXc&NR=1&feature=windscreen



I just found this one, this is good example of application

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF8CDgQtRY8&NR=1&feature=endscreen

Whenever I see one of these demos (and they are all together too common) I wonder if the uke has to be coached to jump backwards and flop around like that and therefore complicit in the scam or if it is purely unconscious ala conversion disorder.

I suspect it is a bit of both, some of them are obviously complicit and the less sophisticated among them are susceptible to dissociative and conversion disorders.

[Dragonzbane76]

I understand that some vids are for demonstrations. But I would like to see some in resistance. red flag goes up anytime I see someone doing a demo and not putting what they are teaching in full speed.

[bawang]

Whenever I see one of these demos (and they are all together too common) I wonder if the uke has to be coached to jump backwards and flop around like that and therefore complicit in the scam or if it is purely unconscious ala conversion disorder.

I suspect it is a bit of both, some of them are obviously complicit and the less sophisticated among them are susceptible to dissociative and conversion disorders.

its a form of hypnosis.

[YouKnowWho]

When you push someone away, he just keeps coming back. Spend all your life and train just to be able to push someone away is not a good investment.

Have we noticed that only Taiji guys like to push. The XingYi, Bagua, XYLH guys are more interesting in punching to the head. What does that tell us?

[RisingCrane]

One of my taiji teachers said that 'pushing hands is the mother of wrestling'. (He had 3 gold medals for shuai jiao.) I now understand that pulling/pushing and listening skills is all about unbalancing an opponent so that you can strike or throw them. With those skills your percentage of successful takedowns will be higher but only if you are ready to execute your technique while they are off balance. This is a very small window of opportunity and if you only train pushing hands without wrestling or sparring practise you will not be able to take advantage of the timing. So while I think that pushing hands and soft practise is not useful for fighting by itself, it can be a useful piece of the puzzle when trained as part of a complete system. Also it enables one to refine balance and set ups without accruing injuries, so you can train on your rest days when you are not hard sparring and still improve.

[Dragonzbane76]

and if you only train pushing hands without wrestling or sparring practise you will not be able to take advantage of the timing.

agree with this. Sadly that's all you see in that community most times. Not saying that exceptions are not found only that most take it that you don't need to put it in a resistant environment. I've wrestled for years and I find that many of the qualities involved in push hands are present, but if the sum of the center "fighting" is not practiced in full then you get what you see in most push hands competitions and training.

[Miqi]

One of my taiji teachers said that 'pushing hands is the mother of wrestling'. (He had 3 gold medals for shuai jiao.) I now understand that pulling/pushing and listening skills is all about unbalancing an opponent so that you can strike or throw them. With those skills your percentage of successful takedowns will be higher but only if you are ready to execute your technique while they are off balance. This is a very small window of opportunity and if you only train pushing hands without wrestling or sparring practise you will not be able to take advantage of the timing. So while I think that pushing hands and soft practise is not useful for fighting by itself, it can be a useful piece of the puzzle when trained as part of a complete system. Also it enables one to refine balance and set ups without accruing injuries, so you can train on your rest days when you are not hard sparring and still improve.

Dear Rising Crane,
Thanks for posting this - this precisely sums up my opinion on the matter also.