Green Dragon's Iron Vest

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

Has anyone done this program?

Did you get the invulnerability in the small area of your torso they talk about? Did it expand to a bigger area over time?

Did you notice any other benefits that are traditionally attributed to internal sets like health or vitality or mood or anything like that?

I am talking specifically about the Iron Vest set as taught by Gene Chicoine of Green Dragon Studios.

[sanjuro_ronin]

GM Chicoine is NOT part of the Green Dragon studios.
Just to make it clear.

[David Jamieson]

GM Chicoine is NOT part of the Green Dragon studios.
Just to make it clear.

Except that he is John R. Allen's Sifu and it is Allen who runs the Green Dragon school.

Otherwise Chicoine is more known for his SC under GM Chang. Despite the Iron skills he got elsewhere.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Except that he is John R. Allen's Sifu and it is Allen who runs the Green Dragon school.

Otherwise Chicoine is more known for his SC under GM Chang. Despite the Iron skills he got elsewhere.

Yep.
Now, does Allen recognize Chicoine as his sifu? or would he say they both learned it from Freeman Ong?

[David Jamieson]

Yep.
Now, does Allen recognize Chicoine as his sifu? or would he say they both learned it from Freeman Ong?

I don't really know as I don't have much invested in their Kung Fu so much as I do my own. I was merely stating a fact in passing. :)

[IronWeasel]

Has anyone done this program?

Did you get the invulnerability in the small area of your torso they talk about? Did it expand to a bigger area over time?

Did you notice any other benefits that are traditionally attributed to internal sets like health or vitality or mood or anything like that?

I am talking specifically about the Iron Vest set as taught by Gene Chicoine of Green Dragon Studios.



One of my shuai chiao classmates began the Body training about five months ago.

I noticed the hardness in his abs one day while grabbing him for a hip throw.



Seems to be working for him. But, then it's an hour a day...every day. Which is why i haven't trained it yet. Yet.

[bawang]

Seems to be working for him. But, then it's an hour a day...every day. Which is why i haven't trained it yet. Yet.

protip: legit iron shirt doesnt take one hour

[IronWeasel]

protip: legit iron shirt doesnt take one hour



At 72 reps it does.

72 reps for the first year, 36 for the second.

[Golden Arms]

I hate saying this, but in this case, I agree with Bawang. It doesn't have to take very long, but the method you guys are discussing sounds like it does.

[IronWeasel]

I hate saying this, but in this case, I agree with Bawang. It doesn't have to take very long, but the method you guys are discussing sounds like it does.



Well, if 36 reps is good, then 72 reps ought to be better.

At any rate....anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that what my classmate is doing is generating results.

[IronWeasel]

protip: legit iron shirt doesnt take one hour



How much time per day did you devote to Body training?

[Golden Arms]

I didn't say that it didn't work, just that it is not the standard that all iron body training should be measured by.


Pro boxers have some amazing iron body training, they do not spend 1 hour a day on it.
It is possible to train iron body integrated with exercises that do other things.
The parts of my training that I would say are primarily devoted to developing iron body take around 20 minutes per day.
Iron body is primarily in the beginning learning to take pain, toughen the tissues of the body, and learning how to use the breath, muscles and abdominal pressure to change what happens when you get hit. Later you can begin playing with how the force travels into and out of your body, which sounds cool but can probably be learned fastest by getting hit, no need for a long explanation.

[IronFist]

GM Chicoine is NOT part of the Green Dragon studios.
Just to make it clear.

I have the Green Dragon Iron Vest tape. Gene Chicoine is the person demonstrating it.

I'm not saying he is or isn't part of Green Dragon Studios. I'm just saying he's the one who does the form on the Green Dragon Iron Vest tape.

Maybe it was a guest lecture or something. I haven't watched it in years and I've never done the set.

[IronFist]

I didn't say that it didn't work, just that it is not the standard that all iron body training should be measured by.


Pro boxers have some amazing iron body training, they do not spend 1 hour a day on it.
It is possible to train iron body integrated with exercises that do other things.
The parts of my training that I would say are primarily devoted to developing iron body take around 20 minutes per day.
Iron body is primarily in the beginning learning to take pain, toughen the tissues of the body, and learning how to use the breath, muscles and abdominal pressure to change what happens when you get hit. Later you can begin playing with how the force travels into and out of your body, which sounds cool but can probably be learned fastest by getting hit, no need for a long explanation.


I'd agree with most of this.

I have (and have done) Wing Lam's iron body program. It involves hitting yourself with either your arms/hands/feet and/or iron body bags. The actual hitting part only takes a minute or two. The rest of the time is made up of qigong type stuff (which may or may not have anything to do with the results) and self-massage dit da jow application (which almost assuredly does have something to do with the results).

Like I said, I haven't seen the Green Dragon Iron Vest tape in years but I don't remember any hitting on it. I seem to remember it just being some postures and movements that are supposed to make you invulnerable. IIRC it said after the first 100 days you will be invulnerable in a little area in the center of your body that will expand outward over time. IIRC it's qi power that is protecting you because there is no emphasis on muscle contractions or actual body hardening the way there is in Wing Lam's Iron Body program.

Now I want to go watch the Iron Vest tape again. This is what I remember from literally 8+ years ago when I saw it.

I can't remember if there were any special rules for Green Dragon's Iron Vest like no sex for 100 days or if you have to take a special pill or something. Actually, I think it did originally come with an herbal pill you're supposed to take for the first 100 days (or am I thinking of their Iron Palm program?). I think someone else told me that that pill is just the equivalent of drinking a gallon of water per day anyway and it was just supposed to purify your body or something. I dunno, man.

[bawang]

I'd agree with most of this.

I have (and have done) Wing Lam's iron body program. It involves hitting yourself with either your arms/hands/feet and/or iron body bags. The actual hitting part only takes a minute or two. The rest of the time is made up of qigong type stuff (which may or may not have anything to do with the results) and self-massage dit da jow application (which almost assuredly does have something to do with the results).



this is the legit method

wing lams method is generic northern kung fu protocol

[Golden Arms]

Marrow Washing could also be considered as Iron Body training.

[bawang]

Marrow Washing could also be considered as Iron Body training.

theres no such thing as marrow washing. do u mean muscle changing exercise

[bai she]

What style does green dragons iron vest come from and who did chicone learn from. This should say a lot. Sorry if I didn't read this someplace else.

[Golden Arms]

theres no such thing as marrow washing. do u mean muscle changing exercise

I agree that Muscle Changing exercise could fall under that category as well. Are you really suggesting that Bone Marrow Washing 洗髓功 doesn't exist?

You might want to tell that to a lot of older Xing Yi guys, as well as Tu Jin-Sheng (http://www.martialartsmart.com/kf-200115.html), Yang Jwing Ming, James McNeil and several others I could name.

Or are you saying that you know more than all of them on this topic?

[mooyingmantis]

Since I am from the same area as Chicoine and Allen maybe I can add a little something.

Feeman Ong was the original Chinese instructor to teach iron body in our area. Chicoine and Allen, as well as several others were his students. Later Chicoine studied with Chang Tung Sheng and Allen studied with others. For a short time Chicoine and Allen worked together.

The iron body taught by Feeman Ong was very intense. Many exercises along with qigong and body striking. One shifu under Ong trained the iron body for two hours per day every day. Was this necessary? I guess that can be debated, but I will say that I have never in over forty years of training met anyone tougher. Full contact punches and kicks to his torso simply bounced off of him.

As with anything, you get out of it what you put into it.

[YouKnowWho]

you get out of it what you put into it.

This is very true. Gong = time. If you spend 2 hours daily, you will get there twice faster than those who only spends 1 hour daily. 2 hours daily is not that much.

[Jimbo]

This is very true. Gong = time. If you spend 2 hours daily, you will get there twice faster than those who only spends 1 hour daily. 2 hours daily is not that much.

I generally agree, except that, unless one's sole occupation is kung fu practitioner/teacher, 2 hours every day for one gong can be much. If someone must work all day, handle all kinds of other responsibilities, in addition to getting in the other important aspects of training.

[SoCo KungFu]

Any iron body exercise is going to have 2 things; Muscular conditioning and skeletal conditioning. They are not exclusive and all will be effected through out any part of the training. This is for the same reason as you see that weight lifting not only builds muscle, but also bone density to support that muscle.

With this in mind, this notion that if you do it an hour, then two hours must be better, or if 30 reps is good then 60 is better, is false. Your body will only recover so fast. You will not speed up physiology. Not like this anyways.

Bawang is correct. Legitimate methods will not take that long, it has nothing to do with the exercise, well almost nothing. Its about physiology, osteoblasts only work so fast.

This is the same general subject that was going down in the stone warrior thread. Some similar elements, some dynamics different. But the same ultimate theme. Your body will only take so much in a given session before you reach diminishing returns (or you simply can't perform the exercise to a required intensity). And you're always going to be limited by the ability of your body to physiologically and anatomically adapt to the imposed stress. And there's not much beyond maintaining proper nutrient loads and some supplemental rubs (jow) and manual stimulation that you can do to increase that.

[YouKnowWho]

Is

- 2 min better than 1 min? I'll say 2 min is better.
- 20 min better than 10 min? I'll say 20 min is better.
- 2 hr better than 1 hr? I'll say 2 hr is better.
- 20 hr better than 10 hr? I'll say 10 hr is better.

It's a bell curve. When does that curve starts to drop? Some physical proof will be needed.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://marketingchristianbooks.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/bell-curve.gif&imgrefurl=http://marketingchristianbooks.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/the-bell-curve-and-books/&h=299&w=800&sz=6&tbnid=XJ8RR1oVCrEcfM:&tbnh=45&tbnw=121&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dbell%2Bcurve%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=bell+curve&usg=__wAXQjQdtA9t4oLQjedHMzwAhY1E=&docid=XBraFWVL5K8G6M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gtJsUcCeNIX9qQHT24GIBw&sqi=2&ved=0CEkQ9QEwBA&dur=85

[IronWeasel]

Any iron body exercise is going to have 2 things; Muscular conditioning and skeletal conditioning. They are not exclusive and all will be effected through out any part of the training. This is for the same reason as you see that weight lifting not only builds muscle, but also bone density to support that muscle. .

Agreed. But the focus of this method is to build and reinforce the muscle and fascia in the upper abdominal area.




With this in mind, this notion that if you do it an hour, then two hours must be better, or if 30 reps is good then 60 is better, is false. Your body will only recover so fast. You will not speed up physiology. Not like this anyways. .

This depends entirely on the exercise. When I lift weights for 60 minutes, I see more progress than when I lift for 30 minutes.




Bawang is correct. Legitimate methods will not take that long, it has nothing to do with the exercise, well almost nothing. Its about physiology, osteoblasts only work so fast..


Implying that this method is not 'legitimate'?:rolleyes:





This is the same general subject that was going down in the stone warrior thread. Some similar elements, some dynamics different. But the same ultimate theme. Your body will only take so much in a given session before you reach diminishing returns (or you simply can't perform the exercise to a required intensity). And you're always going to be limited by the ability of your body to physiologically and anatomically adapt to the imposed stress. And there's not much beyond maintaining proper nutrient loads and some supplemental rubs (jow) and manual stimulation that you can do to increase that.

The same, but different.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Time is inverse with intensity.
The more intense the less time a given activity can be done.

IF you are building endurance then yes, longer is better.
Unless you ARE building endurance then no, longer is not better.

The ability to take a shot has more to do with the direct training OF TAKING SHOTS than it does with anything else.

[David Jamieson]

The ability to take a shot has more to do with the direct training OF TAKING SHOTS than it does with anything else.

In the beginning, it is a build up to develop the conditioning needed to withstand unmetered force.

Having said that, even the greatest iron body practitioner etc in the world is not immune to pain or to being struck down. It doesn't make you invincible in any way shape or form.

It allows you to function in a situation where you are being hit.

someone without any training, conditioning...or balls, will often crumple on the first tap to the face. But someone who has eaten a little bitter will do better.

Or so it seems to me in my experience.

[YouKnowWho]

IF you are building endurance then yes, longer is better.

But we can't separate "endurance" away from everything else. The

- power,
- speed,
- flexibility,
- balance,
- technique, and
- endurance,

all need to train. When you go to gym to lift heavy weight, if your heart is not beating fast and you are not sweating, it's not a complete workout IMO. If you can spar/wrestle 15 rounds, you should have no problem to spar/wrestle 3 rounds. It may not be true the other way around.

If you walk 8 miles daily, when you walk the 1st 4 miles, your body can detect all the problems that you have. When you walk the 2nd 4 miles, your body start to fix your problem for you. If you just walk 4 miles, you don't give your body a chance to fix your problem.

Old teacher always asked students to do "250 hip throw" solo drills. Most students can only achieve 200 but not 250. In order to break through that 200 limitation, other training will be needed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

But we can't separate "endurance" away from everything else. The

- power,
- speed,
- flexibility,
- balance,
- technique, and
- endurance,

all need to train. When you go to gym to lift heavy weight, if your heart is not beating fast and you are not sweating, it's not a complete workout IMO. If you can spar/wrestle 15 rounds, you should have no problem to spar/wrestle 3 rounds. It may not be true the other way around.

If you walk 8 miles daily, when you walk the 1st 4 miles, your body can detect all the problems that you have. When you walk the 2nd 4 miles, your body start to fix your problem for you. If you just walk 4 miles, you don't give your body a chance to fix your problem.

Old teacher always asked students to do "250 hip throw" solo drills. Most students can only achieve 200 but not 250. In order to break through that 200 limitation, other training will be needed.


Sure we can.
Endurance comes in two forms and, typically, both must be addressed.
There is cardio-vascular endurance and muscular endurance.
Training them both is possible, just as is prioritizing one over the other if needed.
That said there is no "endurance training" that is PRIORITZED when you do:
Pure strength work
Pure speed work
Technique work


Also, pace matters.
You have one guy that can get " hot and sweaty" ( as you put it) in 5 min of High intensity work and the same guy will barely break a sweat after 30 min of "paced" cardio.

[Kevin73]

In the beginning, it is a build up to develop the conditioning needed to withstand unmetered force.

Having said that, even the greatest iron body practitioner etc in the world is not immune to pain or to being struck down. It doesn't make you invincible in any way shape or form.

It allows you to function in a situation where you are being hit.

someone without any training, conditioning...or balls, will often crumple on the first tap to the face. But someone who has eaten a little bitter will do better.

Or so it seems to me in my experience.

I think this is the biggest benefit of the training (or any contact combat sport). You get used to the pain and really understand what is happening with your body and what it does. It eliminates that panic factor.

If we all think about the very first time we got hit hard in the solar plexus vs. now after taking a few shots there, we know what it is and what it does and we don't panic anymore.

PS: I'm not saying it doesn't have other benefits, just that understanding the pain is one of the bigger ones not often discussed.

[YouKnowWho]

Allow me to ask a stupid question here. Will "iron vest" be able to allow your head to take a full blow? I just hate to see that someone spends 20 years training in iron vest, oneday his opponent just knocks him out by punching to the face.

I can see the value to make your arms and legs tough because you will need to use it to block punches and kicks. But if you can't make your head tough, I just don't see the value to make your body tough.

A solid steel cup with a glass handler just don't make sense IMO.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Allow me to ask a stupid question here. Will "iron vest" be able to allow your head to take a full blow? I just hate to see that someone spends 20 years training in iron vest, oneday his opponent just knocks him out by punching to the face.

Best
Post
OF
This
Thread !!

:D

[bawang]

Allow me to ask a stupid question here. Will "iron vest" be able to allow your head to take a full blow? I just hate to see that someone spends 20 years training in iron vest, oneday his opponent just knocks him out by punching to the face.

when you toughen your stomach, you dont have to lower your hands.

*stroke beard

[David Jamieson]

when you toughen your stomach, you dont have to lower your hands.

*stroke beard

lol.

You still have to protect it and boxers do this by dropping an elbow to cover the gut. They drop stance and lower the guard.

But John is also right in that Iron exercises do pretty much zero for someone with a glass jaw.

[bawang]

This is very true. Gong = time. If you spend 2 hours daily, you will get there twice faster than those who only spends 1 hour daily. 2 hours daily is not that much.

2 hours of flexing = spinal compression injury



But John is also right in that Iron exercises do pretty much zero for someone with a glass jaw.

of course it does. its called mouth gong.

[David Jamieson]

of course it does. its called mouth gong.

That's what She said!

lol @ "mouth gong"... :p

clench teeth, roll with punch.

Is that a gong now? :D

[bawang]

That's what She said!

lol @ "mouth gong"... :p

clench teeth, roll with punch.

Is that a gong now? :D

if you knew more than just iron wire, aka shaking your hands next to your ears and screaming like a bird, you wouldnt make fun of this.

yes. mouth gong is chewing tough things, and clenching the teeth. what is so rediculous about that. you do know they even train this at songshan shaolin.

you know iron shirt training is just smacking yourself with your fist or a stick, right? none of that chinatown hookey dookey looly looly bullsh1t?

[Golden Arms]

Just as I suspected, this place is full of a majority that know very little but talk a lot. The blind leading the blind.

Just for the record: When has Bawang ever even said what style he trains, how long, who he learned from, etc.? And why would that make him an expert in other systems? Being Chinese makes you no more an expert on Chinese martial arts than being from the United States makes you an expert on civil war strategies.

[bawang]

Just for the record: When has Bawang ever even said what style he trains, how long, who he learned from, etc.? And why would that make him an expert in other systems? Being Chinese makes you no more an expert on Chinese martial arts than being from the United States makes you an expert on civil war strategies.
i train jesus christ.


i know that YOU dont train any form of tough physical exercises at all, from your confession in the training thread. you are not qualified to talk about anything regarding training and conditioning.

[IronWeasel]

i train jesus christ.





Post vid....

[Golden Arms]

i train jesus christ.


i know that YOU dont train any form of tough physical exercises at all, from your confession in the training thread. you are not qualified to talk about anything regarding training and conditioning.

For others on the forums, remember "buyer beware" and do your homework. If you choose to listen to him it should be for a good reason.

Bawang, I have trained for close to 30 hours a week for the last 13 years, had 3 fights in January of this year. I also run 3 miles every other day, skip rope at high speed daily, do a lot of explosive plyometric work, and lift weights a few times a week. Until you prove otherwise, you don't even deserve to shine my shoes, let alone give me advice. Feel free to explain to everyone what you train, how often, and what you have accomplished.

While you are at it, why don't you go ahead and shed some light on why you think 洗髓功 (Xi Sui Gong/Bone Marrow Washing) doesn't exist as well as what makes you more qualified than the individuals I mentioned earlier in this thread to speak on the subject. I noticed you conveniently "forgot to address" that question.

You are a great example of a big fish in a small pond, or as the Chinese might say, 井底之蛙 (The frog in the bottom of a well).

[bawang]

Bawang, I have trained for close to 30 hours a week for the last 13 years, had 3 fights in January of this year. I also run 3 miles every other day, skip rope at high speed daily, do a lot of explosive plyometric work, and lift weights a few times a week. Until you prove otherwise, you don't even deserve to shine my shoes, let alone give me advice. Feel free to explain to everyone what you train, how often, and what you have accomplished.

you said in one of the training threads that horse stance can build muscle mass, weight lifting is not neccesary to get big and strong. i dont believe you are a super badass warrior monk fighter with the kind of opinions you have said. if you do fight, you must be a tomato can.




You are a great example of a big fish in a small pond, or as the Chinese might say, 井底之蛙 (The frog in the bottom of a well).

i have never bragged about myself, i have never promoted any superiority of my kung fu style, i have never talked about the supernatural.

i dont need to "prove" myself, because i never presented myself as a bad ass super duper kung fu warrior.

[Golden Arms]

you said in one of the training threads that horse stance can build muscle mass, weight lifting is not neccesary to get big and strong. i dont believe you are a super badass warrior monk fighter with the kind of opinions you have said. if you do fight, you must be a tomato can.

Lumberjacks and fishermen don't necessarily lift weights in the conventional sense, are you saying they are not extremely strong?

As far as the ideas presented on this forum as gospel regarding strength, why don't you read this book and enlighten yourself.

Supertraining: Yuri-Verkhoshansky (http://www.amazon.com/Supertraining-Yuri-Verkhoshansky/dp/8890403802/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366136950&sr=8-1&keywords=supertraining) Maybe you are more qualified to speak on that subject than the author:

The most complete and up to date book in Special Strength Training (SST): Methodological foundations of special strength training, Guidelines for planning SST, SST means and methods - resistance and jump exercises, Complex method, Stimulation method, Contrast method, Circuit method, Strength-aerobic method, Organization of SST in training process and Block Training System, SST means methods and program for acyclic sports, SST means methods and program for cyclic sports, SST means methods and program for sports games and combat sports, traditional SST exercises used by high-level track & field athletes, questions and answers about warm-up, 'Ultra Mass' bodybuilding program, the contribution of Yury Verkhoshansky to the development of sport science.

[bawang]

As far as the ideas presented on this forum as gospel regarding strength, why don't you read this book and enlighten yourself.

Supertraining: Yuri-Verkhoshansky (http://www.amazon.com/Supertraining-Yuri-Verkhoshansky/dp/8890403802/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366136950&sr=8-1&keywords=supertraining) Maybe you are more qualified to speak on that subject than the author:


i dont lift weight because some steroid injecting slav scientist. i dont lift weights to look down on "internals".
i lift weights because traditional chinese kung fu lifts weights. i uphold tradition, PERIOD.

[David Jamieson]

Just as I suspected, this place is full of a majority that know very little but talk a lot. The blind leading the blind.

Just for the record: When has Bawang ever even said what style he trains, how long, who he learned from, etc.? And why would that make him an expert in other systems? Being Chinese makes you no more an expert on Chinese martial arts than being from the United States makes you an expert on civil war strategies.

Just for the record, don't get worked up by Bawang. It's pointless. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lumberjacks and fishermen don't necessarily lift weights in the conventional sense, are you saying they are not extremely strong?

As far as the ideas presented on this forum as gospel regarding strength, why don't you read this book and enlighten yourself.

Supertraining: Yuri-Verkhoshansky (http://www.amazon.com/Supertraining-Yuri-Verkhoshansky/dp/8890403802/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366136950&sr=8-1&keywords=supertraining) Maybe you are more qualified to speak on that subject than the author:

The most complete and up to date book in Special Strength Training (SST): Methodological foundations of special strength training, Guidelines for planning SST, SST means and methods - resistance and jump exercises, Complex method, Stimulation method, Contrast method, Circuit method, Strength-aerobic method, Organization of SST in training process and Block Training System, SST means methods and program for acyclic sports, SST means methods and program for cyclic sports, SST means methods and program for sports games and combat sports, traditional SST exercises used by high-level track & field athletes, questions and answers about warm-up, 'Ultra Mass' bodybuilding program, the contribution of Yury Verkhoshansky to the development of sport science.

That's a pretty good book actually.
I prefer Serious Strength training by Bomba though.

[David Jamieson]

That's a pretty good book actually.
I prefer Serious Strength training by Bomba though.

Come on, you misspelled zoomba up there man. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Come on, you misspelled zoomba up there man. :p

**** you, LOL !
You made me look it up to make sure I didn't misspell it, LMAO !!

Serious Strength Training-3rd Edition by Tudor Bompa, Mauro Di Pasquale and Lorenzo Cornacchia (Oct 19, 2012)

[David Jamieson]

[insert evil laugh here] :p

[Judge Pen]

when you toughen your stomach, you dont have to lower your hands.

*stroke beard

I agree with bawang on this. If your body is tougher, than you are shrinking the areas of the body that you need to worry about protecting. Not that you do not have to protect yourself, but that you will not panic or over-react to a gut shot leaving your head open.

[andyhaas]

Bawang, I have trained for close to 30 hours a week for the last 13 years, had 3 fights in January of this year. I also run 3 miles every other day, skip rope at high speed daily, do a lot of explosive plyometric work, and lift weights a few times a week. Until you prove otherwise, you don't even deserve to shine my shoes, let alone give me advice. Feel free to explain to everyone what you train, how often, and what you have accomplished.

If it's good training, that doesn't hurt your body, maybe you can train so much.

I stopped because of my knee -- it started hurting when I did baguahang. My teacher at the time did Tui Na on it, and it was good for another year, but it started hurting again. Now I don't train at all. Otherwise I can't walk. :(

[SoCo KungFu]

This thread has gotten so convoluted with random topics. The issue is the ability to take a shot. Muscular endurance is irrelevant here. Strength isn't even really relevant, although you'll build it as a side effect (or rather, ST will build "iron vest").

This entire thread can be summed up very simply... F=ma

That's it. No mystery.

"a" is handled by technique. Whether you call it being like water, teh internalz or just rolling with the punch; prolonging the duration of acceleration limits the force incurred if mass is constant (and just so we're clear, mass is a constant in a punch)...shouldn't need to be said, but this forum you never know.

"m" is worked out in preparation for a fight. This is where training comes in. And all there is to it is bulk and structural integrity. Size provides more material to distribute the force, integrity is well...integrity. If you take a shot without deflecting (in other words altering the force through acceleration via technique like above) then F is constant. Having greater mass means less acceleration on YOUR body. Since we are enclosed sacs of **** and organs, external acceleration transfers internally, this is where damage comes from.

This is simple physics. Building density in your musculoskeletal system. That being the case, then methods to increase size (whether it be muscle, bones or both) are going to coincide with iron body. And so, any "rule" about efficiency in lifting for mass is going to apply nearly equally with iron body. Endurance, nope. Chi, nope.

The rest is psychology. Lift weights and hard spar...ta daaa you'll have iron vest. I find it funny how practically everyone can come to this conclusion in the stone warrior thread but when the topic shifts to iron vest everyone gets either mystical, pseudo-science, or just convolutes the topic with a ton of what if's...

[IronWeasel]

The rest is psychology. Lift weights and hard spar...ta daaa you'll have iron vest. I find it funny how practically everyone can come to this conclusion in the stone warrior thread but when the topic shifts to iron vest everyone gets either mystical, pseudo-science, or just convolutes the topic with a ton of what if's...



Well, SoCo has distilled all martial arts down to psychology. Cool.

For the REST of you...

Regarding my class mate:

He does lift weights...
He does spar....
He experiences the kind of bone-jarring impact that comes with regular shuai chiao practice...

...ergo...that equals Iron Vest???



In addition to all of that he trains the "Iron Vest" program, and has hardened up NOTICEABLY since.


So, if that doesn't mean anything to you guys, then you need to go practice psychology on your opponent.:p

[IronFist]

How does an iron vest program that doesn't involve striking the body develop the ability to take strikes?

If your answer is "qi protects you" I will need a little more explanation.

[IronWeasel]

How does an iron vest program that doesn't involve striking the body develop the ability to take strikes?

If your answer is "qi protects you" I will need a little more explanation.



I think it's like adding a layer of protection...

[andyhaas]

How does an iron vest program that doesn't involve striking the body develop the ability to take strikes?

I noticed the that with some of my baguazhang forms, my muscles grew in places where it was noticably harder to hurt me with common strikes. No qi involved.

I just wish I could still do that stuff. :(

[SoCo KungFu]

Well, SoCo has distilled all martial arts down to psychology. Cool.

....reading comprehension....


In addition to all of that he trains the "Iron Vest" program, and has hardened up NOTICEABLY since.

Really? And I suppose you tested this with your super calibrated glove mounted testing equipment then yes? Or you have super sensory in the pressure receptors in your fingers maybe? Or, you're just another person buying into subjectivity.

Lets see. Lifts weights. Does exercises targeting muscles he might not be getting with standard training....

Working muscles, worked your friend's muscles. Do I need to make this more obvious?

[IronWeasel]

....reading comprehension....



Really? And I suppose you tested this with your super calibrated glove mounted testing equipment then yes? Or you have super sensory in the pressure receptors in your fingers maybe? Or, you're just another person buying into subjectivity.

Lets see. Lifts weights. Does exercises targeting muscles he might not be getting with standard training....

Working muscles, worked your friend's muscles. Do I need to make this more obvious?



Nope.

Clear as a bell. No one is going to trick YOU into doing any training...

[bawang]

The rest is psychology. Lift weights and hard spar...ta daaa you'll have iron vest.
what do u think iron vest training involves?



How does an iron vest program that doesn't involve striking the body develop the ability to take strikes?


from the sounds of "72 reps" and "up to 2 hours", it seems like made up bullsh1t that would cripple someone if they trained it faithfully.

[IronWeasel]

thats the reason


You dinna read it all....

[bawang]

You dinna read it all....
its called abdominal breathing

in traditional kung fu weight lifting overlaps with iron shirt

[IronWeasel]

its called abdominal breathing

in traditional kung fu weight lifting overlaps with iron shirt



Man, o, man....you guys....

Anything to weasel out of a little training.



Sure: pulling some weights = Iron Vest :rolleyes:

I'll bet you'll WOW 'em down at Planet Fitness.

[bawang]

Man, o, man....you guys....

Anything to weasel out of a little training.



Sure: pulling some weights = Iron Vest :rolleyes:

I'll bet you'll WOW 'em down at Planet Fitness.

you dont seem to understand what exactly is iron shirt.

[IronWeasel]

you dont seem to understand what exactly is iron shirt.



Well, there it is, then.

[bawang]

Well, there it is, then.

if you can reveal your super duper secret green dragon protocol, then we can have a discussion.

right now i dont even know what the hell u b doing for 2 hours with those 72 reps


flexing your stomach for 2+ hours a day is gonna fuk up your spine badly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok then...

Look there are basically two methods to build the ability to "take a shot":

The quick and easy method ( that is neither quick nor easy but the training is) that is used by the vast majority of full contact fighters which involves, well, getting hit and learning to take the shot by a combination of muscle tension and relaxation AND deflection.This is done by the practitioner taking shots of a progressively more forceful nature until he/she can take full force shots.
Breathing is crucial in this, as it is in EVERY method.
The cons is that it is a method that is quite painful and can cause issues later one in left because, at times, we can get hurt badly if done incorrectly. Pros is that it works well and is quick to develop.
The longer method (IV, IS, golden bell, etc) is longer, more relaxed, the progression is more controlled and there is less danger of internal damage, the moves tend to make the practitioner more aware of their body then in the other method ( method A is more of a crash course if you well) so that when they get to the "impact stage" they tend to have a better awareness of where and how and when to tense/relax/breath/deflect.

Which is better?

Depends on what you need and what you are going for and how much time you have.

Having done both I can say this:
The IV/IS/GB ,method is healthier in the long run BUT there is no need for it to be THAT LONG.
The "quick and easy" is more effective upfront, BUT can cause you some serious issues if not done properly and with a good partner.

That said, a combination of BOTH is ideal.

[IronWeasel]

if you can reveal your super duper secret green dragon protocol, then we can have a discussion.

right now i dont even know what the hell u b doing for 2 hours with those 72 reps


flexing your stomach for 2+ hours a day is gonna fuk up your spine badly.



You don't know what the I.V. exercises are???

So...you've been arguing over the effectiveness, but you don't even know what it is...?

oi


/Not sure if troll

[Kevin73]

For others on the forums, remember "buyer beware" and do your homework. If you choose to listen to him it should be for a good reason.

Bawang, I have trained for close to 30 hours a week for the last 13 years, had 3 fights in January of this year. I also run 3 miles every other day, skip rope at high speed daily, do a lot of explosive plyometric work, and lift weights a few times a week. Until you prove otherwise, you don't even deserve to shine my shoes, let alone give me advice. Feel free to explain to everyone what you train, how often, and what you have accomplished.

While you are at it, why don't you go ahead and shed some light on why you think 洗髓功 (Xi Sui Gong/Bone Marrow Washing) doesn't exist as well as what makes you more qualified than the individuals I mentioned earlier in this thread to speak on the subject. I noticed you conveniently "forgot to address" that question.

You are a great example of a big fish in a small pond, or as the Chinese might say, 井底之蛙 (The frog in the bottom of a well).

http://www.amazon.com/Qigong-The-Secret-Youth-Changing/dp/1886969841/ref=pd_sim_b_1

[IronFist]

The longer method (IV, IS, golden bell, etc) is longer, more relaxed, the progression is more controlled and there is less danger of internal damage, the moves tend to make the practitioner more aware of their body then in the other method ( method A is more of a crash course if you well) so that when they get to the "impact stage" they tend to have a better awareness of where and how and when to tense/relax/breath/deflect.

I do not understand from that description how that leads to the ability to take blows without damage/pain.

A dancer is very aware of their body but they can't necessarily take blows better than if they didn't dance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I do not understand from that description how that leads to the ability to take blows without damage/pain.

A dancer is very aware of their body but they can't necessarily take blows better than if they didn't dance.

Being more "self aware" of your bodies "structure" allows for a better understanding of what parts need to be "operated" to take the shot.
Less "wasted" effort is guess is a good way to explain it.
Remember, the IV practioner STILL has to go through the phase of getting hit and in that phase it is identical to the other methods:
It progresses from take a shot that is "bare-able" to an ever increasing intensity till we get to the full contact point.

[David Jamieson]

Just to be safe, I'm gonna advise that none of you traditional trained guys mention bring the water body to the fore.

because the non traditionalist will lose their sh1t when you start talking about that stuff.

If it isn't in latin based scientific terms, they don't want to hear it.

But here's the thing, if you put it into latin based scientific terms, they will eat that up like a big bowl of jello!

[bawang]

You don't know what the I.V. exercises are???

So...you've been arguing over the effectiveness, but you don't even know what it is...?

oi


/Not sure if troll

i already said legit iron shirt is just whacking yourself, with a fist or a stick or a brick.

i dunno what the fuk u b doin son



The longer method (IV, IS, golden bell, etc) is longer, more relaxed, the progression is more controlled and there is less danger of internal damage, the moves tend to make the practitioner more aware of their body then in the other method ( method A is more of a crash course if you well) so that when they get to the "impact stage" they tend to have a better awareness of where and how and when to tense/relax/breath/deflect.


he is not understanding what you are talking about. he thinks iron shirt is some breathing exercise where you flap your arms and flex your abs.

[IronWeasel]

i already said legit iron shirt is just whacking yourself, with a fist or a stick or a brick.

i dunno what the fuk u b doin son



he is not understanding what you are talking about. he thinks iron shirt is some breathing exercise where you flap your arms and flex your abs.



What sort of training background do you have?

[md1]

The IV we do in the system I learned has nothing to do with hitting yourself with sticks or bricks… or whatever. It consists of 52 different single movement exercises and 2 different forms, with total emphasis on body awareness. At the start you learn only 3 exercises at a time and they should be done 6 days a week in only reps of 7 and really shouldn’t take more than 15 mins.

later as you learn more and the reps go up you can mix and match to change up your routine, same way you would with your routines in the gym.

[David Jamieson]

It is more than body striking, although, yes, that is part of it. But there are also different strikes, cupped hand, flat hand, back fist, fist, bags with shot in them, a partner on occasion and Qi Gong. IE: Golden Bell.

I am perfectly ok with people not accepting it for whatever reason they like. IN fact I could give a sh1t if anyone wants to believe it or not.

Boxers do a lot more than just spar as well. Medicine ball work is a big part of gut contraction an it is done all the way round the body on the old school guys, maybe even on younger guys too. they don't do the qi gong at all though but they do supplement breath work and work outs etc that give them a perfectly good ability to take a shot.

It still isn't quite the same as iron body/vest/shirt.


reading a book about lifting weights is not lifting weights.
reading a book about kung fu training is not kung fu training and certainly isn't the way to understand kung fu. It is peripheral to it. Doing it and having it instructed is really the only way.

If you don't have access, you simply don't have access.
If you want to believe it's nonsense, that is anyone's choice.
But without direct experience in it, with it then you don't know. Period and your "opinion" is invalid to that end.

[Lucas]

http://www.bodyactive-online.co.uk/Images/Sh/main/pdreebok-ironvest.jpg

[bawang]

What sort of training background do you have?

chen style taijiquan, six steps boxing, xiaohongquan, jesus christ boxing.

is there a problem, officer?

[IronWeasel]

chen style taijiquan, six steps boxing, xiaohongquan, jesus christ boxing.

is there a problem, officer?



Nope.

...maybe you should throw in some jogging.

[bawang]

wat



jhkjhkjkj

[IronWeasel]

..





/thread.

[IronFist]

Remember, the IV practioner STILL has to go through the phase of getting hit and in that phase it is identical to the other methods:

Ok, if that is the case, then I see what you are saying. I don't remember if Green Dragon's Iron Vest involves actually hitting yourself or not. I'll have to watch it again.

Do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

It is unlikely that you will do much to improve your ability to take strikes without some sort of training where you take strikes.

[IronFist]

The IV we do in the system I learned has nothing to do with hitting yourself with sticks or bricks… or whatever. It consists of 52 different single movement exercises and 2 different forms, with total emphasis on body awareness. At the start you learn only 3 exercises at a time and they should be done 6 days a week in only reps of 7 and really shouldn’t take more than 15 mins.

later as you learn more and the reps go up you can mix and match to change up your routine, same way you would with your routines in the gym.

Is the goal of that program to develop the ability to take blows without pain/damage?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok, if that is the case, then I see what you are saying. I don't remember if Green Dragon's Iron Vest involves actually hitting yourself or not. I'll have to watch it again.

Do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

It is unlikely that you will do much to improve your ability to take strikes without some sort of training where you take strikes.

Absolutely.

[bawang]

..





/thread.

i dont know what kind passive aggresive message you are sending, but your iron vest is still bullsh1t.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the most simplest way of trying to understand this:
Doing ONLY the exercises is like doing only sit-ups to help you take a shot in the gut.
Sure it works better than not doing anything at all, BUT pales in comparison when doing sit-ups AND having someone hit you in the stomach, progressively harder until you can take a full force shot with minimal discomfort.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i dont know what kind passive aggresive message you are sending, but your iron vest is still bullsh1t.

If I recall, IW trained under Chicoine, so IF he did IV ( and I don't k now if IW did) his would be the "old school" type I assume.
So...

[IronWeasel]

i dont know what kind passive aggresive message you are sending, but your iron vest is still bullsh1t.


Just sayin'....you admit that you don't know what the program consists of, yet you call it B.S.

Therefore , you're prolly trolling...

[IronWeasel]

If I recall, IW trained under Chicoine, so IF he did IV ( and I don't k now if IW did) his would be the "old school" type I assume.
So...



What's/who's 'IW'?

[bawang]

If I recall, IW trained under Chicoine, so IF he did IV ( and I don't k now if IW did) his would be the "old school" type I assume.
So...

green dragon already made up the "stone warrior set" , it means they can make up anything else. they also keep it super duper secret and remove it from youtube, which is also shady. iron shirt is a beginner fundamental skill, theres nothing secret about it.


Just sayin'....you admit that you don't know what the program consists of, yet you call it B.S.

Therefore , you're prolly trolling...

people already said its a two hour workout with up to 72 reps. from this i already know this is not legit iron shirt protocol. i can imagine its the typical made up arm flapping dynamic tension like the "amazing abs of shaolin" scam by that french guy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What's/who's 'IW'?

IW = Iron Weasel cause I am too lazy to type out your whole screen name :p

[bawang]

If I recall, IW trained under Chicoine, so IF he did IV ( and I don't k now if IW did) his would be the "old school" type I assume.
So...

there is no such thing as an iron shirt program without hitting yourself. is chicoine jesus christ himself?

[sanjuro_ronin]

there is no such thing as an iron shirt program without hitting yourself. is chicoine jesus christ himself?

My point is that, from what I gather, they do hit themselves and each other as part of the training.

[IronWeasel]

IW = Iron Weasel cause I am too lazy to type out your whole screen name :p



Lol....

Yes, I still train under Chicoine. I'll see him in class tonight.

But now...it's lunch time.


/brb

[bawang]

My point is that, from what I gather, they do hit themselves and each other as part of the training.

if its really that way then there was no point in this thread. if you hit yourself your get tougher, no way.

but obviously they are trying to present it as something mysterious and magical. if shirt vest isnt sold as something special there wouldnt be arguments about it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

if its really that way then there was no point in this thread. if you hit yourself your get tougher, no way.

but obviously they are trying to present it as something mysterious and magical. if shirt vest isnt sold as something special there wouldnt be arguments about it.

You guys just talked past each other, that's all.

Like mooyingmantis mentioned in the 2nd page of this thread, Chicoine and Allen learned from Ong and Ong's IB involved striking the body.

[bawang]

You guys just talked past each other, that's all.

Like mooyingmantis mentioned in the 2nd page of this thread, Chicoine and Allen learned from Ong and Ong's IB involved striking the body.

since green dragon takes their "stone warrior" very seriously, then you can prolly expect the same quality with everything else they teach.

[pazman]

A few years of hard ukemi is better iron vest than any fakey qigong.

[IronFist]

Now I'm curious to watch the video again.

It's at my parents' house, though, so I won't be able to see it until I go visit them.

Plus it's on VHS and I don't even have a VCR. Fortunately, they do.

[mooyingmantis]

...but obviously they are trying to present it as something mysterious and magical. if shirt vest isnt sold as something special there wouldnt be arguments about it.

I have never seen Allen's tape, so I can't comment on it.

However, Ong's Iron Body, as I received it from two teachers under him, consisted of exercises, breathing and body striking. I was never taught anything "mysterious and magical".

[sanjuro_ronin]

It seems to me that a lot of the "secret teachings" end up being stuff that is common sense but not "given up" readily.
In regards to IV, it seems that what is put OUT is the moves and such but what is "secret" are the parts that involve getting hit.

[David Jamieson]

It seems to me that a lot of the "secret teachings" end up being stuff that is common sense but not "given up" readily.
In regards to IV, it seems that what is put OUT is the moves and such but what is "secret" are the parts that involve getting hit.

It's information that when applied, produces results.

If you don't have the information, then you don't have it.

Like anything, say HTML as an example. If you don't know the syntax and order of code to produce the desired result, you won't get any results.

Our bodies are anything but "simple".

[SoCo KungFu]

what do u think iron vest training involves?

Short answer: Protein synthesis and bone mineralization. Its pretty simple really. I don't know why people think its that special.

Expanded: You can throw in the body awareness/anatomical response mechanisms that SR mentioned (and I did in my 1st post for that matter). But I think now we're getting into a realm where revisionists are trying to co-opt on things after the fact. Either you put that into iron body training AND admit that any other contact sport trains iron body. Or you say that since kung fu'ers spar (presumably) throughout history but iron body was something more and different. You can't have it both ways. The logic nazi in me has to call that out. Unless of course someone (not you specifically) is trying to argue that sparring doesn't teach you how to appropriately apply muscular tension and breathing with technical redirection of force. And that'd just be ridiculous to say.

Personally, I'm concerned about the physiological changes that the exercise brings. That's where you separate bull**** from reality. The reality is none of this is special and gweilo have been doing it for decades without knowing.

[SoCo KungFu]

Our bodies are anything but "simple".

I think they can pretty simple at times, actually :D

[md1]

There is no particular hitting of the body in the IV training I learned, not to say there isn’t any hitting of the body in other training or sparing. Now maybe I wasn’t taught that side of it, I don’t know. I spent many years with the guy and he never said anything and to be honest I never asked.

Definitely nothing magical or special about it and Yes I believe many other sports athletes have been doing it all these years just in different ways and not even knowing it.

[Golden Arms]

Some Iron Body/Vest protocols use twisting to bring about the changes. I know of a few people that used breathing belts or slept with rocks/weights on their stomachs to develop some of it as well. As was stated before, I think all of the programs are helped along by taking hits, but taking hits is not the sole method of developing these abilities.

[IronFist]

Sleeping with large rocks on you sounds uncomfortable if you want to roll over.

What is a breathing belt?

[bawang]

Sleeping with large rocks on you sounds uncomfortable if you want to roll over.

What is a breathing belt?

a weightlifting belt

There is no particular hitting of the body in the IV training I learned

then its fake.

but taking hits is not the sole method of developing these abilities.


iron shirt involves hitting yourself.

[Golden Arms]

a weightlifting belt
Sort of, but not always, they come in several shapes and some are more like two cords wrapped around the body with a piece of cloth stretched over the lower dantian.



iron shirt involves hitting yourself.
Agreed it often does, although some practices develop quite a bit of it without taking hits. Taking hits will generally make it much better much faster however. My personal practice has always included taking hits as part of it.

[bawang]

Agreed it often does, although some practices develop quite a bit of it without taking hits. Taking hits will generally make it much better much faster however. My personal practice has always included taking hits as part of it.



your iron vest exercises have nothing to do with iron vest, they are beginner basics sold as part of iron vest.

if you teach people to hit themselves for 30 min, no ones gonna buy the dvd.

[Golden Arms]

the abdominal breathing training you have described are fundamental exercises the student should have began on the first week of class. this is commonly witheld in modern times to be sold as "secret training". "invitation only training".

your iron vest exercises have nothing to do with iron vest, they are beginner basics sold as part of iron vest.

Thanks Bawang but none of that is what I was talking about or had in mind when I typed that. Not surprising coming from the guy that thinks Bone Marrow Washing doesn't exist.

I agree with what you are saying however, and unfortunately in a lot of schools that is probably exactly how it plays out.

[bawang]

Thanks Bawang but none of that is what I was talking about or had in mind when I typed that. Not surprising coming from the guy that thinks Bone Marrow Washing doesn't exist.

I agree with what you are saying however, and unfortunately in a lot of schools that is probably exactly how it plays out.

if you flap your arms and flex your stomach, you can see progress when you spar limp wristed kung fu classmates.

Not surprising coming from the guy that thinks Bone Marrow Washing doesn't exist.

do you actually want me to explain why hitting yourself makes you tougher?

Thanks Bawang
you are welcome my son.

[Golden Arms]

if you flap your arms and flex your stomach, you can see progress when you spar limp wristed kung fu classmates.

do you actually want me to explain why hitting yourself makes you tougher?

you are welcome my son.

Not sure where you came up with that arm flapping thing you keep bringing up, you must have had a bad experience with it or something...

You hit yourself in Bone Marrow Washing practice, quite a bit actually. I would love to hear you explain why anyone that is genuinely curious should listen to you on this topic at all. You appear to love to talk like an expert about things you know very little about or have read in manuals (aka: read in a book). Go impress the Shaolin Do guys, they might buy what you are spouting off.

[bawang]

You appear to love to talk like an expert about things you know very little about or have read in manuals (aka: read in a book).

i have never bragged about myself, the supernatural, or the esoteric. the only thing i have repeated over and over in this thread for 8 pages is, iron shirt is about hitting yourself, anything else is bullsh1t.


the only thing i mentioned from the ancient manuals i read is they all tell you to lift weights, do less forms, and dont believe in magic.

[Golden Arms]

So your knowledge comes from manuals. Great, lets just leave it there.

[bawang]

So your knowledge comes from manuals. Great, lets just leave it there.

i read stuff you can only fantasize in your kung fu movie dreams. compared to the sacred words in those 1000 year old manuals, whatever your teacher says is worthless garbage.

you follow your sifu like the tail of a dog. i follow chinese martial arts. this is the difference between you and me. what i read in 5 min overrides 13 years of my training. because i dont blindly follow some chinatown huckster like a prison wife.

[Lucas]

I believe in magic.

[bawang]

I believe in magic.

whats ur power lvl

[Lucas]

trick question!!!

[pazman]

Iron vest?
http://www.lies.com/wp/images/2011/12/elora.jpg

Yes, please.

[md1]

a weightlifting belt


then its fake.



iron shirt involves hitting yourself.

I don't know what i would have done without you all these years.
Thank you.

[Kellen Bassette]

the only thing i mentioned from the ancient manuals i read is they all tell you to lift weights, do less forms, and dont believe in magic.

The funny thing is that we need some ancient manual to confirm what common sense should tell us.

I wonder why it's so hard for so many people to understand that the majority of traditional classes are structured as they are, in modern times, to appeal to larger groups of people. There's simply less people out there who are willing to do rigorous, fundamental training.

[bawang]

Hi Bawang. Iron Shirt is not necessarily hitting yourself. Tai Ch Iron Shirt training has three components.



tai chi iron shirt involves hitting yourself.

[bawang]

That is not my experience with it. Would you mind sharing your experience with this type of Tai Chi training? Thank you. All the best.

do permeating qi or submerging in water qigong, then hit yourself.

[Bernard]

Hi Bawang. Iron Shirt is not necessarily hitting yourself. Tai Ch Iron Shirt training has three components.

-standing post position (hold the ball) with feet at shoulder width.

- gung bo left and right; projection =turn and shift forward; reception =turn and shift back. These can also be done with feet shoulder width apart and with an additional component of up and down spiral while being done.

-turtle breathing

This is a slow process and takes about ten years, depending on how much it is done, to start feeling the braiding effect of this type of Iron Shirt.


tai chi iron shirt involves hitting yourself.

A taijiquan instructor I know from the Cheng, Man Ching lineage showed me his method of iron vest and it does involve hitting yourself.

[Bernard]

That is very interesting. Is it similar to the type of training that Hung Gar does and is it unique to the Tai Chi school or was it adopted from another source? Thank you. All the best.

Sorry. Not familiar with Hung Gar IV methods.

[IronFist]

This is a slow process and takes about ten years, depending on how much it is done, to start feeling the braiding effect of this type of Iron Shirt.

If something takes that long to develop skill, how did anyone know to stick with it that long?

Or do you think it was the kind of thing where they noticed that people who did a certain exercise (perhaps for another reason) happened to have developed iron shirt skills?

[IronWeasel]

Has anyone done this program?

Did you get the invulnerability in the small area of your torso they talk about? Did it expand to a bigger area over time?

Did you notice any other benefits that are traditionally attributed to internal sets like health or vitality or mood or anything like that?

I am talking specifically about the Iron Vest set as taught by Gene Chicoine of Green Dragon Studios.



So, anyway....I've confirmed.

YES, there is SOME body striking after the exercises.




I expect all of you guys to begin this training by the end of the month. We will all reconvene next year and compare progress.:)

Bawang will be the control subject in this experiment. ;)

[IronFist]

Ok I just watched the tape and now I have some comments.

There were 3 rules for the program:

1) You must take the herbal medicine. He specifically said that without the medicine you won't get the benefits. He said they've tried it without the medicine and all you get is a good workout.

2) No sex for 100 days

3) Minimize your alcohol consumption. He said a glass of wine with a meal every once in a while is fine but you shouldn't drink a lot.

So that first rule pretty much rules out most people from doing the program since I don't think they send the herbs anymore.

Gene Chicoine also said that you start the program at 36 reps and then you can go up to 72 reps and then you can go up again to 108 reps and that's like the full thing or whatever (although sifu John Allen said on the Stone Warrior tape that there was one guy who took it into the thousands). Gene said he recommends staying at 72 reps because if you go up to 108 and then you decide that takes too much time, you can't go back to 72 reps.

Why?

Isn't that like saying if you bench press 200 pounds and then you increase to 300 pounds you can't go back to 200 pounds? Obviously that isn't true. Is this some mystic qi reasoning? Why can't you decrease the number of reps you do?

He said if after a year you can only do it 4 or 5 days a week that's fine. Isn't that also decreasing the volume done? Why is that ok but going from 108 to 72 reps isn't?

What if you have to stop training, or decide to stop training? Is going from 36 or 72 reps to 0 reps bad?

The final exercise involved sitting down and doing some hand/arm movements and then doing some meditation with your eyes closed and he said as you inhale your qi goes up your spine. This is opposite from what I've heard from other people such as Erle Montaigue who said as you inhale it goes from your nose to your dan tien and then as you exhale it goes from your dan tien, around your pelvis, up your spine and over your head. Why?

To answer the question about hitting yourself, after the exercises you are supposed to hit yourself with your fists for 2 minutes in the abdomen.

There is no specific hitting of the arms or anything. I do not think this iron vest program will condition the forearms to withstand hits (unless it's done with qi).

I also found it interested that he said immediately after you finish you have to eat something like dry toast or a cookie or something. It can't be cold, and you can't eat a big meal for an hour after or an hour before.

What is the reasoning for eating something right afterward? I've never heard that you should eat immediately following internal training.

He also demonstrated a belt you can wear that you fasten pretty tightly which makes it more difficult to breathe because its compressing body and it's supposed to help keep your organs up where they're supposed to be. He said as you age your organs fall lower in your body and that's a bad thing. Can anyone confirm if this actually happens? He said the belt helps keep them in place as well as internal training which massages them and helps them stay up higher. He said don't wear the belt when you're doing internal training or meditating but it can be worn throughout the day. He said it also provides some protection for full contact fighting.

At the beginning of the demonstration he was talking about the benefits of iron vest as they relate to health and he specifically said it will cure diabetes if you're not on insulin, and if you are on insulin it will reduce the amount of insulin you need to use by 50%. Those are pretty strong claims.

At the end they talked about how after the first 100 days you are invulnerable in a small area below your ribs and after three years it expands outward and after 10 or 20 years it expands into your groin and armpits.

They said if you want to be a full contact fighter where they don't use gloves you should train this program for 5 years.

They said the invulnerability it provides will reduce the effectiveness of iron palm by about 60% and they said the only thing it doesn't work against is poison palm (or something like that). Is that the one where you dip your hand in poison and you can't touch people or they'll die?

The exercises themselves were all done without tension except for one. They mostly involved holding stances, holding certain positions, moving your arms around, and bending and twisting certain ways.

But seriously, someone explain why you can't reduce the number of reps of internal exercises you do.

[A BIONIC LEG]

I've practiced basic Iron Shirt for about 3 years (hitting myself at the sturnum for 60 secconds while lying flat on back or standing). I can tell a significant diffrence on pain management in taking a strike to the mid section when I do practice vs not.

Am I saying you don't feel pain? Bwahahahahahah, no. But the level of management is significantly diffrent.


Here is the can of worms being opened.

How would you discribe qi in western terms. not that BS "qi blast" but legitamate quantifiable qi?

Based on what I've studied (read and listened to lectures) I know what I think but I want to get everyones thoughts (including you Bawang :) ) before I answer.

[bawang]

The exercises themselves were all done without tension except for one. They mostly involved holding stances, holding certain positions, moving your arms around, and bending and twisting certain ways.

But seriously, someone explain why you can't reduce the number of reps of internal exercises you do.

it sounds like a bunch of bs.

[IronFist]

it sounds like a bunch of bs.

I know right? But isn't Gene Chicoine really highly respected? And isn't he also a Shaui Jiao champion or something (as opposed to those "masters" who have never actually shown skill against a resisting opponent)?

On the lecture portion of the tape they were talking about Gene and said how their master (Tung Sheng Cheng?) had 13 disciples or something, 12 of whom where Chinese and one of whom was Gene, and he choose Gene to teach this super secret stuff to. It was supposed to be a testament to both Chinese people being less racist (not teaching the white man) and also Gene being really good.

The only thing I can tell from just watching the exercises is that I bet your shoulders get sore when you start because the first two postures are basically standing with your arms held out to the side for 3 minutes, and then in between each exercise you go back to standing with your arms held out to your side for a minute. I think there were 24 exercises which means you'll spend over 24 minutes holding your arms out to your sides. I bet your shoulders get tired.

Some of them had specific abdominal movements and breathing patterns which I can see being a good organ massage (if that's a real thing) or at least getting stuff moving down there, twisting the waist, etc.

I wonder what the herbal pills do. After all, they said it doesn't work without the pills for the first 100 days.

I wonder if that's just a form of plausible deniability:

- this program develops qi power and makes you invulnerable
- this program only works with herbal pills
- we do not provide herbal pills
- therefore if you do the program and do not become invulnerable, you cannot say it doesn't work because we did not give you the pills
- therefore you cannot disprove our claim

They said the program takes about an hour and 20 minutes to do. I don't know how many reps that is, though.

I'm trying to figure out how long it would take:

- the first two exercises are 3 minutes of holding your arms out, so that's 6 minutes.
- there are 22 additional exercises, 21 of which are followed by one minute of holding your arms out, so that's 21 more minutes.
- the exercises themselves he said can be done pretty quickly and except for the one are all done without tension. The first 8 or 10 or so were done 36 times each to start, and some of them were done on both sides, and he mentioned that the ones that are done to both sides are done 36 times on each side. Still, when he demonstrated the exercises at speed, I can't see any of them taking longer than 1.5 minutes to do 36 reps. So that's 33 minutes for 22 exercises.
- a few of the exercises were just holding a stance for a minute. It may have been 2 or 3 minutes. I can't remember, actually. So we'll say there were two exercises that were just holding a stance for 3 minutes, and that's 6 minutes. But we have to subtract two of the exercises from above at 1.5 minutes each, so that's minus 3 minutes, which makes a total of 3 minutes.
- after the last exercise you are supposed to sit in a meditative state for approximately 5 minutes.
- then you're supposed to eat something. If you had some toast ready to go that would take only about a minute.

So:

6
21
33
3
5
1

Well that's like 69 minutes.

I guess if you doubled them to 72 reps it would double the length of the exercises that have reps. I can't imagine them taking more than 2 minutes to do 72 reps for most of them, though. Most of them are around one second per rep.

No mention was made of if you increase the reps by one each week for 36 weeks or if you just immediately jump from 36 to 72.

No mention was made of if you have to increase the duration of the timed exercises when you double the reps. So if you increase from 36 to 72 reps, do you then increase the 3 minute stances to 6 minutes?

It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has done this set.

[lkfmdc]

Playing devil's advocate but

open and close your hands for 69 minutes and you will see results

just stand with your knees slightly bent for 69 minutes, and you will see results

[David Jamieson]

Time changes everything. Just time itself can have a HUGE role in your being.

For instance, you were a formless blob once and now look at you! You'll be dust soon enough and through it all, you didn't have to do anything but be.

Amazing.

[IronFist]

Playing devil's advocate but

open and close your hands for 69 minutes and you will see results

just stand with your knees slightly bent for 69 minutes, and you will see results

"Results"? What sort of results?

[lkfmdc]

"Results"? What sort of results?

muscle strength, muscle definition, endurance, etc etc etc....

were you expecting firey chi balls?

[IronWeasel]

Ok I just watched the tape and now I have some comments.

There were 3 rules for the program:

1) You must take the herbal medicine. He specifically said that without the medicine you won't get the benefits. He said they've tried it without the medicine and all you get is a good workout.

2) No sex for 100 days

3) Minimize your alcohol consumption. He said a glass of wine with a meal every once in a while is fine but you shouldn't drink a lot.

So that first rule pretty much rules out most people from doing the program since I don't think they send the herbs anymore..

The last time Chicoine got the herbs was in December. I hear that he'll be ordering another batch in a few months. They are a little hard to come by, but not impossible.



Gene Chicoine also said that you start the program at 36 reps and then you can go up to 72 reps and then you can go up again to 108 reps and that's like the full thing or whatever (although sifu John Allen said on the Stone Warrior tape that there was one guy who took it into the thousands). Gene said he recommends staying at 72 reps because if you go up to 108 and then you decide that takes too much time, you can't go back to 72 reps.

Why?

.

Because if you drop back, you won't aquire the typical, expected results.




The final exercise involved sitting down and doing some hand/arm movements and then doing some meditation with your eyes closed and he said as you inhale your qi goes up your spine. This is opposite from what I've heard from other people such as Erle Montaigue who said as you inhale it goes from your nose to your dan tien and then as you exhale it goes from your dan tien, around your pelvis, up your spine and over your head. Why?
.

This is one of those questions with a long winded, controversial, flame-worthy answer.

Try it this way, and you will experience a 'result'. Report back after that.



To answer the question about hitting yourself, after the exercises you are supposed to hit yourself with your fists for 2 minutes in the abdomen.

There is no specific hitting of the arms or anything. I do not think this iron vest program will condition the forearms to withstand hits (unless it's done with qi).
.

There is plenty of hitting from other routine training and falling to satisfy most masochists.




At the beginning of the demonstration he was talking about the benefits of iron vest as they relate to health and he specifically said it will cure diabetes if you're not on insulin, and if you are on insulin it will reduce the amount of insulin you need to use by 50%. Those are pretty strong claims.
.

Interesting, because exercise, in general, will have a positive impact on diabetes. And Femon Ong (who taught this set) was a diabetic.



At the end they talked about how after the first 100 days you are invulnerable in a small area below your ribs and after three years it expands outward and after 10 or 20 years it expands into your groin and armpits.

They said if you want to be a full contact fighter where they don't use gloves you should train this program for 5 years.

.

Invulnerable = harder to injure... figurative speech...




They said the invulnerability it provides will reduce the effectiveness of iron palm by about 60% and they said the only thing it doesn't work against is poison palm (or something like that). Is that the one where you dip your hand in poison and you can't touch people or they'll die?
.

Poison hand is a specific kind of Iron Hand training. It has nothing to do with poisoning people. Poison Hand herbs are nearly impossible to get.



But seriously, someone explain why you can't reduce the number of reps of internal exercises you do.

You need to take some exercises past a certain threshold to realize certain benefits. If there's a threshold...then half the reps won't mean half the benefit. It may mean no benefit at all. If you're going to make time to do the program, why not do the whole thing...?

[bawang]

I know right? But isn't Gene Chicoine really highly respected? And isn't he also a Shaui Jiao champion or something (as opposed to those "masters" who have never actually shown skill against a resisting opponent)?

I know. but it still sounds like bs. I don't care what he is.




They said if you want to be a full contact fighter where they don't use gloves you should train this program for 5 years.


real iron shirt only takes half a year.

[IronFist]

muscle strength, muscle definition, endurance, etc etc etc....

were you expecting firey chi balls?

Standing with your knees slightly bent for 69 minutes a day will not develop muscle strength unless you were extremely deconditioned before, and even then after the first minute or two you will no longer be developing "strength."

Standing with your knees slightly bent for 69 minutes a day will not develop endurance unless you were talking about the endurance to stand for 69 minutes a day.

Opening and closing your hands for 69 minutes a day out of nowhere will probably give you tendonitis.

[IronFist]

The last time Chicoine got the herbs was in December. I hear that he'll be ordering another batch in a few months. They are a little hard to come by, but not impossible.

Your location says Akron, OH. Do you train at Green Dragon Studios?


Because if you drop back, you won't aquire the typical, expected results.

That was not what it seemed like he was saying.

His recommendation was that you stop at 72 reps. If 72 reps would not give results I don't think he would've recommended stopping at 72 reps.

He said you can't go back to 72 if you increase to 108, implying that it will either cease to work altogether or that something bad will happen. So if 72 reps will get decent enough results that he recommends stopping at 72 reps, why would he say you can't go back to 72 if you increase it to 108?


This is one of those questions with a long winded, controversial, flame-worthy answer.

Try it this way, and you will experience a 'result'. Report back after that.

He said the qi will be trying to go up your spine but since it doesn't have a clear path yet it may cause you to shake back and forth. He said that will pass over time. That reminded me of some of the things I've read about Kundalini yoga.


There is plenty of hitting from other routine training and falling to satisfy most masochists.

It's not about masochism. It's about Iron Vest claiming to make you resistant to injury with only minimal striking to the body. Well, I think he did say to do it for a few minutes so maybe over time it slowly conditions you. It seems substantially different from most other styles of conditioning I've seen, however, that involve hitting harder and tensed muscles.


Poison hand is a specific kind of Iron Hand training. It has nothing to do with poisoning people. Poison Hand herbs are nearly impossible to get.

I read about something in a Brian Grey book about some iron palm training style where you take these herbs that cause your hands to secrete a poison. I thought that was "poison hand."


You need to take some exercises past a certain threshold to realize certain benefits. If there's a threshold...then half the reps won't mean half the benefit. It may mean no benefit at all. If you're going to make time to do the program, why not do the whole thing...?

He recommended doing 72 reps which makes me think 72 reps is probably enough to see benefit. I understand that results might not be proportional to effort. I just don't understand why, if 72 reps is fine, once you go to 108 you can't come back down to 72.

[IronFist]

Oh, I forgot to mention that he says you should keep your tongue on the roof of the mouth during the exercises. I think that's pretty standard internal training advice as I hear it everywhere.

I think Glenn Morris (author of "Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master," great book btw, although it may be a bit too mystic for some people because there is talk of qi, seeing auras, sending people dreams, etc.) mentioned that he messed himself up somehow by not putting his tongue on the roof of his mouth while he was doing some meditation or something. Don't quote me on that, though; it's been years since I read that book.

[IronWeasel]

Your location says Akron, OH. Do you train at Green Dragon Studios?
..

I trained at Green Dragon for three years.

I currently train at Ho Chun. Gene Chicoine still teaches our hard style class every Thursday. Shuai Chiao class is every Monday. I've been there since 2008.





That was not what it seemed like he was saying.

His recommendation was that you stop at 72 reps. If 72 reps would not give results I don't think he would've recommended stopping at 72 reps.

He said you can't go back to 72 if you increase to 108, implying that it will either cease to work altogether or that something bad will happen. So if 72 reps will get decent enough results that he recommends stopping at 72 reps, why would he say you can't go back to 72 if you increase it to 108?..


These rep based training methods operate on an inceasing number of reps. You are discouraged from skipping days by having to go back to the beginning number of reps and start all over if you miss (usually three days).

Nothing bad happens. It's just that people are inherently lazy



He said the qi will be trying to go up your spine but since it doesn't have a clear path yet it may cause you to shake back and forth. He said that will pass over time. That reminded me of some of the things I've read about Kundalini yoga...

I have heard of this, but have never seen or experienced it.





It's not about masochism. It's about Iron Vest claiming to make you resistant to injury yet the only hitting that occurs is to your body and it was only at the end of the routine. Although I suppose the name "iron vest" may imply only torso protection (not your arms or legs, since a vest doesn't have sleeves or pants)....

Yes, about the VEST patten of protection.

The development comes from stressing and conditioning of the fascia (and mesentery?). Striking the body is supplementary to this development.

The absence of striking does not diminish your gains, but including it (properly) may enhance your development.




I read about something in a Brian Grey book about some iron palm training style where you take these herbs that cause your hands to secrete a poison. I thought that was "poison hand."...

Brian Grey is an uninformed writer of what is fundamentally fiction.

"poison" hand is just a catchy name for the drastic results of the training. few have trained it, even in our school. Even ChangTung Sheng told Chicoine that he knows more about iron palm than anyone he has met. Quite a complement.

Hank applies poison hand to these blocks near the end of this video. Note that he selectively breaks the middle ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB2hCsCRE14






He recommended doing 72 reps which makes me think 72 reps is probably enough to see benefit. I understand that results might not be proportional to effort. I just don't understand why, if 72 reps is fine, once you go to 108 you can't come back down to 72.

72 is the standard amount. And it takes about an hour and 15 minutes. Unless you're unemployed, I wouldn't do 108. ;)

[IronWeasel]

Oh, I forgot to mention that he says you should keep your tongue on the roof of the mouth during the exercises. I think that's pretty standard internal training advice as I hear it everywhere.

I think Glenn Morris (author of "Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master," great book btw, although it may be a bit too mystic for some people because there is talk of qi, seeing auras, sending people dreams, etc.) mentioned that he messed himself up somehow by not putting his tongue on the roof of his mouth while he was doing some meditation or something. Don't quote me on that, though; it's been years since I read that book.



"Teeth closed. Tongue on the roof of the mouth."

[IronFist]

I trained at Green Dragon for three years.

I currently train at Ho Chun. Gene Chicoine still teaches our hard style class every Thursday. Shuai Chiao class is every Monday. I've been there since 2008.

Cool.


These rep based training methods operate on an inceasing number of reps. You are discouraged from skipping days by having to go back to the beginning number of reps and start all over if you miss (usually three days).

Nothing bad happens. It's just that people are inherently lazy

Yeah I've heard the "if you miss a day you have to start over" thing before. I had been told it was just to emphasize the importance of regular training.

I've also heard it must be done at exactly the same time each day, not from Green Dragon, but somewhere else, which is crazy because I don't think they had such accurate timekeeping back in the day in China.


I have heard of this, but have never seen or experienced it.

It seems to be another thing that has a lot of different methods and opinions depending on who you ask. Kind of like qigong.


Brian Grey is an uninformed writer of what is fundamentally fiction.

I read his books back when I was like 14 or 15. I just remember hearing about the one where give off a poison.


"poison" hand is just a catchy name for the drastic results of the training. few have trained it, even in our school. Even ChangTung Sheng told Chicoine that he knows more about iron palm than anyone he has met. Quite a complement.

Hank applies poison hand to these blocks near the end of this video. Note that he selectively breaks the middle ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB2hCsCRE14

That was a cool vid.

It seems to me that breaking the bottom/middle brick is either a stage trick (using a baked brick, a small pebble, etc. Please note I'm not saying anyone in the vid did that, just that that's one possible way to break the middle brick) or an application of physics. I've seen it attributed to "directing your qi to the brick you want broken."


72 is the standard amount. And it takes about an hour and 15 minutes. Unless you're unemployed, I wouldn't do 108. ;)

But nothing bad happens if you go from 72 to 108 and then back to 72 again?

[IronWeasel]

It seems to me that breaking the bottom/middle brick is either a stage trick (using a baked brick, a small pebble, etc. Please note I'm not saying anyone in the vid did that, just that that's one possible way to break the middle brick) or an application of physics. I've seen it attributed to "directing your qi to the brick you want broken."


When you break the bottom block, it's from the (very minute) flexing of the blocks when you strike them. The upper ones can only flex so far, and they are bolstered by the blocks beneath them. The bottom block has no support under it, so if you hit it with JUST enough force, only it will break.

As for the middle ones...who knows? Must be the chi. ;)




But nothing bad happens if you go from 72 to 108 and then back to 72 again?


No, nothing bad happens. You just won't achieve the level of success for the 108 reps.

Call Chicoine and ask him if he will order the herbs for you. Then do the program and draw your conclusions.

Iron Vest is more demanding, time wise, than Iron Palm or Snake Turns Over.

You may want to start with one of those, as results will be more rapid and tangible.

[IronFist]

Iron Vest is more demanding, time wise, than Iron Palm or Snake Turns Over.

I know the snake turns over strength form thing, and I saw one of the Iron Vest exercises also had the same name but was done faster and without tension.

Hey what kind of herbs are they? I understand if it's a secret formula and they don't want to share, but I'm just curious cuz I wonder how many people would take something without knowing what they were taking.

The herbs are just for the first 100 days, right?

And the no sex for 100 days? How young are the people doing this? I'm pretty sure that any dude under 25 at least will blow his load in his sleep if he goes more than a week or so without ejaculation. Does that mess up your progress, too?

Oh, last question: does the torso protection that one gets from Iron Vest require tensing your muscles at the point of impact? It seems to be that every single "iron body" demo I've seen involves some dude flexing every muscle in his body at the point of impact. It seems to me that if it were qi protecting you, you could remain relaxed. Qigong people always say tension is bad for qi, anyway. I think flexing your muscles at the moment of impact is the correct way to take a hit, but it has nothing to do with qi and has everything to do with physical conditioning and generating tension.

Since Iron Vest is done without tension (except for the one exercise), do its body conditioning effects also not require tension to apply?

[IronWeasel]

I know the snake turns over strength form thing, and I saw one of the Iron Vest exercises also had the same name but was done faster and without tension.


I have learned three variations of the tension exercise "Snake Turns Over/Arm Grabs" with emphasis on different parts of the arm.



Hey what kind of herbs are they? I understand if it's a secret formula and they don't want to share, but I'm just curious cuz I wonder how many people would take something without knowing what they were taking.


I don't know much about herbalism, so I won't speculate on the recipe. Dale Dugas may be of some service, as Chicoine taught him Iron Palm.



The herbs are just for the first 100 days, right??


Yes.




And the no sex for 100 days? How young are the people doing this? I'm pretty sure that any dude under 25 at least will blow his load in his sleep if he goes more than a week or so without ejaculation. Does that mess up your progress, too??


No sex (it was tough) for 100 days, no (very little) fried foods, no (very little) alcohol. Night time release can't be helped, and ultimately won't matter much anyway.




Oh, last question: does the torso protection that one gets from Iron Vest require tensing your muscles at the point of impact? It seems to be that every single "iron body" demo I've seen involves some dude flexing every muscle in his body at the point of impact. It seems to me that if it were qi protecting you, you could remain relaxed. Qigong people always say tension is bad for qi, anyway. I think flexing your muscles at the moment of impact is the correct way to take a hit, but it has nothing to do with qi and has everything to do with physical conditioning and generating tension.

Since Iron Vest is done without tension (except for the one exercise), do its body conditioning effects also not require tension to apply?

Yes, tense the target muscles before impact.

"CHI" isn't protecting you like a supernatural barrier of sorts. It isn't magic. Think of it as blood/lymph/breath/circulation. Naming it "energy" assigns the wrong western connotation tho the Chi concept.

Tension may block the flow of chi, but that's only a concern during exercises, as some of these have a "tension and relax" cadence to their performance.

[Golden Arms]

Oh, last question: does the torso protection that one gets from Iron Vest require tensing your muscles at the point of impact? It seems to be that every single "iron body" demo I've seen involves some dude flexing every muscle in his body at the point of impact. It seems to me that if it were qi protecting you, you could remain relaxed. Qigong people always say tension is bad for qi, anyway. I think flexing your muscles at the moment of impact is the correct way to take a hit, but it has nothing to do with qi and has everything to do with physical conditioning and generating tension.

Since Iron Vest is done without tension (except for the one exercise), do its body conditioning effects also not require tension to apply?

Never heard of thoracic pressure or intra-abdominal pressure (during Valsalva maneuver for instance)? Any decent kung fu person should know all about this stuff. Good iron body is not just flexing your muscles, its opening and closing the body. Research polyamines regarding the role of ejaculation/jing.

[IronFist]

Yes, tense the target muscles before impact.

"CHI" isn't protecting you like a supernatural barrier of sorts. It isn't magic. Think of it as blood/lymph/breath/circulation. Naming it "energy" assigns the wrong western connotation tho the Chi concept.

Tension may block the flow of chi, but that's only a concern during exercises, as some of these have a "tension and relax" cadence to their performance.

Why go through all the trouble of a complicated internal program, then? If the end result is the same, the ability to take a hard shot while protecting yourself with muscle tension, why not just do it the boxing/MMA/external way of hitting yourself while your muscles are tensed and increasing the power used over time.

It doesn't take hours a day and doesn't have any mystic nuances.

What are the advantages of developing the ability to protect yourself from strikes with Iron Vest as opposed to developing the ability to protect yourself by just hitting yourself while tensing your muscles and increasing the force used over time?

I understand that Iron Vest supposedly will increase your health in ways that just hitting yourself won't, but I want to know what the difference is as far as strike absorption is concerned.

[Lucas]

i think if you are viewing qi as some mystical magical super energy thing, then no, flexing your muscles is not qi. but if you look at it from a more universal frame, when you are flexing your muscles you are indeed using your qi to take the hit.

" As ATP gets used up in working muscle, the muscle produces several metabolic byproducts (such as adenosine, hydrogen ions and carbon dioxide). These byproducts leave the muscle cells and cause the capillaries (small, thin-walled blood vessels) within the muscle to expand or dilate (vasodilation). The increased blood flow delivers more oxygenated blood to the working muscle."

more qi

[IronWeasel]

Why go through all the trouble of a complicated internal program, then? If the end result is the same, the ability to take a hard shot while protecting yourself with muscle tension, why not just do it the boxing/MMA/external way of hitting yourself while your muscles are tensed and increasing the power used over time.


My anecdotal evidence:

Student A lifts weight regularly.
Gets struck and thrown regularly.
Gaind benefits from that activity.

Adds Iron Body to the training...gains strength, muscle/fascia thickness that he didn't have before adding Iron body.

I can tell the difference just by grabbing on to him to do a hip throw.




It doesn't take hours a day and doesn't have any mystic nuances.

What are the advantages of developing the ability to protect yourself from strikes with Iron Vest as opposed to developing the ability to protect yourself by just hitting yourself while tensing your muscles and increasing the force used over time?

I understand that Iron Vest supposedly will increase your health in ways that just hitting yourself won't, but I want to know what the difference is as far as strike absorption is concerned.

It may be difficult to quantify the degree of difference.

I'll just say that the increase is significant.

Chi is real, and it does 'something'. It will not give you the mystical powers that are alluded to in forums. All I can say is what we have observed and reported at our school. This isn't magic, it's just the transmission of force. You can hit a little harder, and take a little harder hits.

1) I can feel the thump in my palm, asychronous from my pulse...when I choose to focus on it happening. Ergo: 'something' is going on there. what does that mean? Who knows.

2) Poison hand. Chicoine has struck people on the back, and a red hand pring appears on the chest. Cool party trick...represents the ability to direct damage through a medium such as muscle/organ tissue or cinder blocks.

3) Poison hand. Hank performs a similar demo on the blocks in the previously posted video.

If these skills are of value to you, then put in the time to do the training.

If my words on the forum aren't convincing, call Chicoine and come visit the school and see for yourself.

Any Forum trolls: come to the school. Ask questions. See.

Hope this helps.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When done correctly, pretty much any method of conditioning will work.
IB is no different.
I was skeptic of Iron Hand training so I took it up and it cleared my doubts.
When I decided to try IB work I realized that the time needed was something that I didn't have available.
I would have had to cut something out of my already very streamlined program.
Having discussed the matter with a person of very good IB skills and having "tested" mine from my previous methods ( Full contact work and Iron wire), He said that it would not be a much benefit to me to devote that much time ( he did suggest a "short version" that would put the finishing touches on what I already have).
In short, we need to realize that the only way to make a correct conclusion is to DO it or at least see it done/test those that have it.
Then it falls on us to decide if it is "worth" the time to be invested.

[IronFist]

It may be difficult to quantify the degree of difference.

Fair enough.


1) I can feel the thump in my palm, asychronous from my pulse...when I choose to focus on it happening. Ergo: 'something' is going on there. what does that mean? Who knows.

Interesting. How do you know its asynchronous from your pulse? Did you compare it to the pulse in your wrist? I'm just mentioning this because if it were, in fact, your pulse, it wouldn't match up with your heartbeats because its further away (for example, put one hand on your heart and use your other hand to take your pulse at your wrist and you'll see they're out of synch).

Not saying you're wrong. I do have a vein in both palms that pulses. Sometimes I can even see it pulsing. That's probably not what you're talking about, though.


2) Poison hand. Chicoine has struck people on the back, and a red hand pring appears on the chest. Cool party trick...represents the ability to direct damage through a medium such as muscle/organ tissue or cinder blocks.

That would be interesting to see.

[IronFist]

When done correctly, pretty much any method of conditioning will work.
IB is no different.
I was skeptic of Iron Hand training so I took it up and it cleared my doubts.

What sort of doubts did you have about iron hand training?


When I decided to try IB work I realized that the time needed was something that I didn't have available.

Which program did you do?

[mickey]

Greetings,


http://www.ideafit.com/fitness-library/fascial-fitness



mickey

[Golden Arms]

Thanks for posting that mickey,

I will give it a read over when I get home to tonight, but it looks like some good potential info.

[IronWeasel]

Greetings,


http://www.ideafit.com/fitness-library/fascial-fitness



mickey



Nice.

Thanks!

[IronWeasel]

Fair enough.



Interesting. How do you know its asynchronous from your pulse? Did you compare it to the pulse in your wrist? I'm just mentioning this because if it were, in fact, your pulse, it wouldn't match up with your heartbeats because its further away (for example, put one hand on your heart and use your other hand to take your pulse at your wrist and you'll see they're out of synch).

Not saying you're wrong. I do have a vein in both palms that pulses. Sometimes I can even see it pulsing. That's probably not what you're talking about, though.
.



I felt my radial artery.




That would be interesting to see.

He's still faster than all of us...even at 82. :)

[IronWeasel]

In short, we need to realize that the only way to make a correct conclusion is to DO it or at least see it done/test those that have it.
.


The best piece of advice in this thread.