Opening /crossing at start of forms

[Paul T England]

One of my students had some interesting insight into the Cross down at the beginning of forms.

Just wondering how other people explain the reasoning for this action?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[BPWT]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1224812#post1224812

“Directing people to closed threads is the path to the dark side. Closed threads lead to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

Yoda
(when he comes to this forum)

[Paul T England]

Thats what I was feeling!!!

Ok normally I explain it as centreline and space awareness but its interesting how it relates to COG (dan tian)

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[BPWT]

I never really liked the centerline explanation as it's too obvious a reference point - no need to try and find it when standing still ;)

But spatial awareness is right (IMO), as one of the things this movement/motion trains is correct elbow position.

[Eric_H]

One of my students had some interesting insight into the Cross down at the beginning of forms.

Just wondering how other people explain the reasoning for this action?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

If you do it the way we do it, it's the lower reference point - the physical boundary of the arms having structural power.

[BPWT]

That thread was closed?

Yes, I believe so. Circular arguments that sucked me in like a whirlpool... and Graham laid a cake :D:D:D

[poulperadieux]

Yes, I believe so. Circular arguments that sucked me in like a whirlpool... and Graham laid a cake :D:D:D


And spoiled it more with goat blood.

[trubblman]

I never really liked the centerline explanation as it's too obvious a reference point.

I agree. I have always thought there was more to the opening. That is used to define the centerline sounded too obvious.

[lance]

One of my students had some interesting insight into the Cross down at the beginning of forms.

Just wondering how other people explain the reasoning for this action?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk Hello , anyway who was your wing chun sifu anyway ? The reason why I ' m asking is because , you learned from your sifu wing chun right ? So ask him about the cross arms at the opening of the form .
It 's the same as what everybody was saying it ' s used to define the centerline .

Lance

[LFJ]

Any human being with normal bodily awareness knows exactly where their centerline is without needing to physically "define" it in such a way, but that's a better explanation than the combat applications people come up with for it.

[Paddington]

Any human being with normal bodily awareness knows exactly where their centerline is without needing to physically "define" it in such a way, but that's a better explanation than the combat applications people come up with for it.

I have trained with Sifus who have, like others have said in this thread, insisted that the crossing of the arms is just to check a centerline.

Personally I think there are a few things that are being trained and reinforced by the crossing of the arms at the beginning of forms. I am not going to name them here though I will state why I think that in forms from the Ip Man family of Wing Chun, we often are training and can train many things from what seems like a single movement in the forms.

One thing I have noted about Ip Man Wing Chun, as that is the family of Wing Chun I am most familiar with, is that it has been progressively reductionist in its pedagogical approach.

Listening to the type of arguments that the two brothers Ip Ching and Ip Chun have had, inclines me further towards this line of thought. Efficiency in delivery of the system, I believe, has informed a lot of the idiosyncrasies and changes of the forms within the IP Man family of Wing Chun over the years, including what Ip Man himself contributed.

[wingchunIan]

Any human being with normal bodily awareness knows exactly where their centerline is without needing to physically "define" it in such a way, but that's a better explanation than the combat applications people come up with for it.

Not true at all. Watch beginners do punches or SNT and you will see a complete lack of ability to where to the centreline

[Paddington]

Not true at all. Watch beginners do punches or SNT and you will see a complete lack of ability to where to the centreline

I agree with you here, I've seen the same too.

[Robadob]

In our lineage the lower movement is similar to a centerline punch. The reason it seems to point down is this way you know you're at the centerline the moment your biceps touches your chest.
The upward movement is setting up your Wu Sau. The correct placement is checked by shifting. If for example you' ld have shifted to the left, your right hand Wu Sau is now at the centerline.

[LFJ]

Not true at all. Watch beginners do punches or SNT and you will see a complete lack of ability to where to the centreline

Are you talking about their own centerline or the central line between themselves and the opponent? Folks who explain the crossing hands as defining one's own centerline often explain the following 'punch' as defining the central line between oneself and the opponent.

Anyhow, bad coordination doesn't mean they don't know where their centerline is. You think the majority of people can't close their eyes and touch their nose, sternum or navel, and that they'll be able to do so after crossing their arms in front of their body? :)

[wingchunIan]

Are you talking about their own centerline or the central line between themselves and the opponent? Folks who explain the crossing hands as defining one's own centerline often explain the following 'punch' as defining the central line between oneself and the opponent.

Anyhow, bad coordination doesn't mean they don't know where their centerline is. You think the majority of people can't close their eyes and touch their nose, sternum or navel, and that they'll be able to do so after crossing their arms in front of their body? :)

Your first paragraph is nothing to do with me. Knowing where the centre of your own body is, is not the same as being able to identify the opposite end of a line away from the body. being able to touch your nose with your eyes closed is not the same as being able to find and control the centreline automatically and without thought, not just close to your body but also at the furthest point away.

[jimhalliwell]

Your first paragraph is nothing to do with me. Knowing where the centre of your own body is, is not the same as being able to identify the opposite end of a line away from the body. being able to touch your nose with your eyes closed is not the same as being able to find and control the centreline automatically and without thought, not just close to your body but also at the furthest point away.


Knowing where your centre is one thing actually being able to protect it and work down it are two separate things. I see countless chi sau demos of people training with centres totally open to attack! very sad :(

Jim.

[Phil Redmond]

This is the TWC Pin San Central line theory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBPmlvAB8jA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdOmnxmnfv8

[LFJ]

Your first paragraph is nothing to do with me. Knowing where the centre of your own body is, is not the same as being able to identify the opposite end of a line away from the body. being able to touch your nose with your eyes closed is not the same as being able to find and control the centreline automatically and without thought, not just close to your body but also at the furthest point away.

Well that does go with the first paragraph of my post. That's central line, between oneself and the opponent, defined according to some by the opening 'punch'. Centerline, one's vertical center of mass, when squared is defined according to some by the opening crossing of arms low and high. Yet I still hold that any normal feeling human being with bodily awareness knows where their center of mass is without needing to 'define' it in such a way. What you're discussing though is the ability to protect it by controlling central line, the most direct path to it.

To continue on the topic, other ideas implicit in the actions are that lower gate may be guarded with mostly straight arms, while anything higher maintains the working bent arm range that all the main shapes (taan, bong, fuk, etc.) keep. With few exceptions will you need to change this range. The other thing drawn is the limit of necessary lateral movement, i.e. that you need not move your arms outward beyond your torso for deflection, as nothing out there would hit you anyway. Shifting, when necessary, is covered in CK.

Some of these ideas I think are a bit too obvious to need these actions to be practiced, but I like it better than 'kick blocks' and other applications people come up with anyway.

[LFJ]

Yeah, sure.

[poulperadieux]

Are you talking about their own centerline or the central line between themselves and the opponent? Folks who explain the crossing hands as defining one's own centerline often explain the following 'punch' as defining the central line between oneself and the opponent.

Anyhow, bad coordination doesn't mean they don't know where their centerline is. You think the majority of people can't close their eyes and touch their nose, sternum or navel, and that they'll be able to do so after crossing their arms in front of their body? :)

About 70 percent of my students have a bad corporal localisation to my standards when they come as beginners.

And I don't tell about the shoe and chair generation and the lumbar hyper kyphosis that gives an endemic hypotrophia of the gluteus medius and an hypertrophia of the paravertebral muscles of the area witch are not originally for the main work... (Christophe Carrio, Tom Myers for more details).


And I don't quote one of my senior student last night, on witch I could tell she was suffering from an ankle problem as she presented a bascule of the pelvis and htat her posture bended to the left during the siu lim tao.

It takes around 6 to 8 months to one year for a student who takes himself or herself in charge to get back the lumbar curvation and reverse the process of the chair and shoes (or basket shoes but I won't tell here, it's complicated and I'm not sure anyone will read, I'm not sure anyone read this so I can say banana, write banana if you read and have questions, please, I like banana, since I saw Despictable me and the banana song go on youtube and post the video here it will be fun, I'll laugh I tell you).

So You can tell : Everyone knows where their nose is... But, sadly, You are missing a lot of things.

Go banana !

[wingchunIan]

Well that does go with the first paragraph of my post. That's central line, between oneself and the opponent, defined according to some by the opening 'punch'. Centerline, one's vertical center of mass, when squared is defined according to some by the opening crossing of arms low and high. Yet I still hold that any normal feeling human being with bodily awareness knows where their center of mass is without needing to 'define' it in such a way.
The crossing of arms IMO has nothing whatsoever to do with knowing where your centre of mass is and I have never seen anyone suggest that it has. Your teaching appears to make distinctions between "centreline" and "central line" other lineages do not have the same terminology which could explain it. I suspect that what you refer to as the centre line is either the Jic seen (body axis) or chung sum seen (central heart line) according to the terminology used in my lineage and what you refer to as the central line is what we would refer to as the tse m seen (meridian line). As the three lines are intrinsically linked we tend to simply refer to them collectively as the centreline.

What you're discussing though is the ability to protect it by controlling central line, the most direct path to it. you can't defend it or control it if you dont know where it is intuitively hence the repetitive focus upon it during SNT practice.


To continue on the topic, other ideas implicit in the actions are that lower gate may be guarded with mostly straight arms, while anything higher maintains the working bent arm range that all the main shapes (taan, bong, fuk, etc.) keep. I would contest that the arm being straight at low level is actually only a product of correct elbow positioning and that this movement like much of the first section of SNT is reinforcing the correct elbow distance and hence fighting range.


Some of these ideas I think are a bit too obvious to need these actions to be practiced, but I like it better than 'kick blocks' and other applications people come up with anyway In Wing Chun and in fighting there is no such thing as too obvious. Lut sao jic chung is pretty obvious but still requires constant practice:)

[Graham H]

Lut sao jic chung is pretty obvious but still requires constant practice:)

Ian

How do you define LSJC?

GH

[LoneTiger108]

One of my students had some interesting insight into the Cross down at the beginning of forms.

Just wondering how other people explain the reasoning for this action?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

I have refrained from posting here for one reason... this movement makes up the first line from my curriculum at The Yum Yeurng Academy. It's difficult to explain reasoning behind it without understanding what context you are discussing... as defense or attack to start with?

It's like applying for a job without a decent person specification!! You will just say what you want rather than be specific in your presentation in relation to what is needed ;)

[LFJ]

@Ian,

What I refer to is this;

Jung-sam together forms the noun 'center'. Jung-sam-sin = 'centerline'.
Jung alone is the adjective 'central' describing the line, Jung-sin = 'central line'.

Regardless of terminology, lineage, or even martial arts though, these are just physical truths regardless of whether they are acknowledged or not; the body's vertical axis and the most direct path between that of two bodies.

[poulperadieux]

@Ian,

What I refer to is this;

Jung-sam together forms the noun 'center'. Jung-sam-sin = 'centerline'.
Jung alone is the adjective 'central' describing the line, Jung-sin = 'central line'.

Regardless of terminology, lineage, or even martial arts though, these are just physical truths regardless of whether they are acknowledged or not; the body's vertical axis and the most direct path between that of two bodies.

ok...

Geometric truth.

But considering the brain and the particularity of one eye, and, as we are not cyclops, both eyes functioning together, witch is at least Three more annoying parameters (there's more, but let it go for now), there's no such thing for your brain and body as the superiority of the straight line over the curve.

Some time, because you Human create space and time distorsion, the curve can seem faster than the straight line, as time is a relative notion, depends witch side of the toilets you are.


In european fencing in the XVII th century, there was a man who wrote extensively on how fencing was geometric and prédictive, "there is no such thing such like surprise in fencing" ("L'académie de l'épée" Gérard Thibault d’Anvers, last spanish Maestro before the decay of the art due to the geometry theory wandering).

http://www.georgeglazer.com/prints/sporting/indiv/thibaultinv/thibault-thysiana.jpg

Later Italians, and French learning from Italians proved him terribly Wrong.

But History repeats itself, all the time.

[wingchunIan]

Ian

How do you define LSJC?

GH

The concept is very simply if there is nothing stopping your hand then it should strike to the jic seen of the opponent. If something does stop your hand then the instant that that something is removed the hand should strike in an automatic reaction, like releasing a bent cane. This requires constant relaxed forward intent (intent to strike to the jic seen of the opponent) acheived through maintaining a slight contraction of the triceps when an initial attempt to strike is stopped or an opponents strike is intercepted. The degree of contraction of the triceps required reduces over time according to the increasing ability of the practitioner to switch off and relax all antagonistic muscle groups more completely. Obviously there is a big difference between pushing / leaning and forward intent as the former can be exploited relatively easily and is therefore to be avoided.
I was simply using LSJC as an example of something that is easy in theory and can be practised from day one but improves dramatically with training and repetition (response time becomes shorter, cognitive interference reduces, telegraphing of intent reduces etc etc). Same with the centreline. Everyone knows roughly where it is but the ability to find and therefore control it under pressure and the level of accuracy with which you can do so increases with practise and repetition.
So what is your interpretation of LSJC?

[Graham H]

The concept is very simply if there is nothing stopping your hand then it should strike to the jic seen of the opponent. If something does stop your hand then the instant that that something is removed the hand should strike in an automatic reaction, like releasing a bent cane. This requires constant relaxed forward intent (intent to strike to the jic seen of the opponent) acheived through maintaining a slight contraction of the triceps when an initial attempt to strike is stopped or an opponents strike is intercepted. The degree of contraction of the triceps required reduces over time according to the increasing ability of the practitioner to switch off and relax all antagonistic muscle groups more completely. Obviously there is a big difference between pushing / leaning and forward intent as the former can be exploited relatively easily and is therefore to be avoided.
I was simply using LSJC as an example of something that is easy in theory and can be practised from day one but improves dramatically with training and repetition (response time becomes shorter, cognitive interference reduces, telegraphing of intent reduces etc etc). Same with the centreline. Everyone knows roughly where it is but the ability to find and therefore control it under pressure and the level of accuracy with which you can do so increases with practise and repetition.
So what is your interpretation of LSJC?

Have you eaten a book on bio mechanics today?

[poulperadieux]

Have you eaten a book on bio mechanics today?

Eat goat mlik for a change Graham, it pacifies the heart, and clears the anger in the heart.


No, like I care, keep on the blood man, you are funny as hell !:D

[BPWT]

No, like I care, keep on the blood man, you are funny as hell !:D

It was only a matter of time before Kevin's blood confession and Graham's rabbit training... came together: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zcxVpHRgE8

:D

Lat Sau Jik Chung in motion.

[Graham H]

So what is your interpretation of LSJC?

Lat Sau Jik Chung is the process of how we use forward force using the whole body structure as one unit. This process is formed during the correct practice of chi sau and through exchanging force with your training partners.

Unfortunately a lot of schools don't have this process and many that do have interpreted it as some sort of springy energy that comes into play when arm contact has been broken. Through this they can detect holes and weaknesses in their attackers defense and attacks. They are awesome! :)

Sorry I couldn't find a science book to consume before I wrote that. :D

[Graham H]

It was only a matter of time before Kevin's blood confession and Graham's rabbit training... came together: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zcxVpHRgE8

:D

Lat Sau Jik Chung in motion.

You can test my rabbit training in September. Make sure you are in shape.

[Graham H]

You and Poul make a very sweet couple. :)

[poulperadieux]

It was only a matter of time before Kevin's blood confession and Graham's rabbit training... came together: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zcxVpHRgE8

:D

Lat Sau Jik Chung in motion.

My Lord, command, 'll follow !

[poulperadieux]

You can test my rabbit training in September. Make sure you are in shape.

Beware !!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg

[BPWT]

You can test my rabbit training in September.

With pleasure, G, with pleasure. My meetings are still scheduled for early to mid Sept, so lets meet. PM me your details - I don't even know where you are in the UK.



Make sure you are in shape.

It doesn't matter how politely you ask, I don't want to do that line dancing thing with you, Graham :D Indeed, I might not be fit enough for all that jumping about with the serious look on your face. :)

But I'll do my best to stay in shape for you. :rolleyes: Wear a box. ;)

[BPWT]

Beware !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg

LOL. :D A classic movie!

[Graham H]

With pleasure, G, with pleasure. My meetings are still scheduled for early to mid Sept, so lets meet. PM me your details - I don't even know where you are in the UK.

I'm in the south west.



It doesn't matter how politely you ask, I don't want to do that line dancing thing with you, Graham :D Indeed, I might not be fit enough for all that jumping about with the serious look on your face. :)

But I'll do my best to stay in shape for you. :rolleyes: Wear a box. ;)

That clip is a snip of a training session and if you must know the moving backwards bit was to stay in shot as my phone was filming sat on top of a punch bag. If I have to move back I will. If your skill set is not up to much there will be no need for me to retreat. You must remember that I boxed for quite a long time. My footwork is quite mobile. I can use this to my advantage for the same reason that WSL was mobile, why Philipp Bayer is mobile and even people like Bruce Lee and Cassius Clay were mobile. It's required for fighting. People that are arrogant enough in Wing Chun who think they can move in straight lines and destroy all comers for moving up the center are dreamers. If you are getting attacked by a bigger stronger opponent then being mobile is a very important requirement. The fact that I can fight going backwards as well as I can forwards is a string to my bow IMO. All rabbit and dancing comments are taken lightly because until you fight me in real time how can you know what I'm about?

It's probably not a good idea to use video footage as a bench mark. I have made that mistake in the past. The fact that there is no footage of you, Spencer or Ian makes it more interesting when I meet you....................if I do.

have a good weekend.

[poulperadieux]

Sorry Graham, but jumping like a rabbit is not moving as a body unit, and being united is not being a block of concrete.

I'm not surprised nearly anyone here (I say nearly because 2 people at least here know) can understand or discuss on the fencing points I evoked 2 posts higher.

Not surprised at all, when you see the butcher knife work and the pole work of Wing Chun, you understand, If you were taught fencing, just the basics are not there, to nearly anyone.

Kenneth Cheung at a seminar said that the weapons in wing chun came late : "Do you think farmers from south had money to buy blades 350 years ago?", and weren't put into the Ouingue Choune(tm) for fighting, but as you and most people here know, to develop body modifications, body modifications and qualities some sell at the late, but are best trained early, as soon as you are sure your student hold his back, his neck alright and his tight and knees are coated.

Anyway...

Just to say, you are a lot arrogant for someone who know this little on arts, I must say.


Just to be precise Graham, It's your atitude and the general attitude of Philip Bayer adepts that make me laugh at you, i don't care about fights, I don't do Wing Chun for fighting.

Arts are not for brawling, if you live like that, you'll just meet emptiness when you will have no more ennemies to fight.

Arts are to meet people, make friends, create a social link.

You people, goat blood cult adepts, and Rabbit Worshippers don't make me want to meet you, we don't live in the same world, yours creep me out, seriously dude, relax a bit.

[BPWT]

I'm in the south west.

Okay, I will be in London for two days (if all goes to plan) for meetings, and then maybe in Sussex for a day or so to visit family. So lets see if something can be worked out - maybe find a way to meet somewhere between your location and mine, if the timing looks doable.



If I have to move back I will. If your skill set is not up to much there will be no need for me to retreat. You must remember that I boxed for quite a long time. My footwork is quite mobile. I can use this to my advantage for the same reason that WSL was mobile, why Philipp Bayer is mobile and even people like Bruce Lee and Cassius Clay were mobile. It's required for fighting. People that are arrogant enough in Wing Chun who think they can move in straight lines and destroy all comers for moving up the center are dreamers. If you are getting attacked by a bigger stronger opponent then being mobile is a very important requirement.... All rabbit and dancing comments are taken lightly because until you fight me in real time how can you know what I'm about?

Yes, take the rabbit jokes lightly - no one is suggesting you are actually a rabbit. Poulperadieux, after all, is not really an octopus.

No arguments from me regarding the need for mobility - I was poking fun at the way you move forward and back, left and right (the way you jump/hop in position). Different to how I do things as I am stepping rather than using a jump/hop, while trying to maintain Kim Sut (for protection as well as to aid in connection lower body and upper body). 'Trying' being the operative word.

If you've boxed, then the wide stance you use is probably familiar territory - I still think it is way too open when you play freely with someone (be it Chi Sau, Lat Sau or Sparring).

And yes, clips are clips only - which is why I don't put mine up on YouTube. I would just, ummm... meet people like me that will make comments on them :) All my video (of me) is really just for me to document what I am doing wrong, what I need to work on, what got me in trouble and why, etc, etc. I am able to critique myself more than enough.



have a good weekend.

You too! I'm going to a seminar which will probably focus on some wooden dummy concepts put into drills for partner work.

For fear of the backlash of internet jokes, negative comments, misunderstandings, etc... here is some footage from my Sifu giving a similar seminar in Lithuania recently. And no, before you say it, we don't try and sharpen our knives like this :D:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en-GB&gl=HU&client=mv-google&v=ybs6zcZ6OUE&nomobile=1

[poulperadieux]

poulperadieux, would it be possible for you to post or PM the names of some good fencing books that illustrate their technique(s) or philosophy's? I wish to research this topic a little. Thank you.

Le baron de Bazancourt : "Les secrets de l'épée".

One movie witch is cool with Eric Roberts and the other actor who killed Mozart I never remember his name : "By Sword" Par l'épée.

Two Books :

- Le sentiment du fer
- Par l'épée

Must be translated in english.

Mustn't for the Baron's book I guess.

Learn French, can be some use for girls they say (but they are wrong, learn Itallian and Mandarin, and Russian for Ruski Still first!)
:D

PS : I don't do PM, nothin' to hide, silly guys don't read what they must anyway.

[poulperadieux]

Yes, take the rabbit jokes lightly - no one is suggesting you are actually a rabbit. Poulperadieux, after all, is not really an octopus.

I AM an Octopus !

I have at least 8 brains in my own, and you mustn't see me touch girls.


No arguments from me regarding the need for mobility - I was poking fun at the way you move forward and back, left and right (the way you jump/hop in position). Different to how I do things as I am stepping rather than using a jump/hop, while trying to maintain Kim Sut (for protection as well as to aid in connection lower body and upper body). 'Trying' being the operative word.


And "Kim Sut" needs also a living feet to be operative in movement.
Lot of OC men, and it's the same problem in Xinh Yi and Tai chi (not for anyone uh, I'm talking about the main ones, there's exceptions I met), as Su Dong Chen says, and I agree with him, the stance training destroyed a lot the footwork of traditionalists.

the fact that you jump like a rabid maintaining a vertical stance in an aberration of an exercice is sorta a proof for me, I'm Sorry, I'm not gentle.

This kind of exercices, for me, are quite usless, especially if you have the years in practice that you have, there are better ones, find a thai who had a lot of fights dans don't find you white enough to teach you crap (good luck with that if you are the same in real life than in forums), learn proper tai chi with someone who doesn't teach flat feet exercices (go see Su Dong Chen, but again, don't mess with him, he's a sensitive man).

Su Dong Chen, for me, the Charlie Parker of Gong Fu :

http://poulperadieux.com/2011/11/07/su-dong-chen-charlie-parker/




And yes, clips are clips only - which is why I don't put mine up on YouTube. I would just, ummm... meet people like me that will make comments on them :) All my video (of me) is really just for me to document what I am doing wrong, what I need to work on, what got me in trouble and why, etc, etc. I am able to critique myself more than enough.



yeah be sure, when you make a video public that your level is good enough, or, that you don't care what people say.

On of my friends, quoting my youtube channel, called me the naked Octopus.

As a fan of Metal Gear, I took it for a big big compliment.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/p480x480/165023_490287457676365_675863088_n.jpg



You too! I'm going to a seminar which will probably focus on some wooden dummy concepts put into drills for partner work.



http://poulperadieux.com/2013/05/01/stage-de-wing-chun-le-week-end-du-15-juin-strasbourg-biu-jee-et-mannequin-de-bois-2/

Hey, here's mine : Wooden Dummy, Chi Gerk, Footwork, Chisao, and Biu Jee if we have time.

2 days, English spoken with french crappy sexy accent.


:D

[BPWT]

poulperadieux,

I will take a look at your link :)

Su Dong Chen is really something else, by the way - I know a few people (with way more talent than me) who have had contact with him - really a serious fighter (which he has tested many, many times when teaching in Japan). Those in organized crime know him quite well, I hear ;) You know the sort, the tough guys who like to test people... they got a taste. :D

Out of interest, have you ever met Serge Augier in France? To some, a little controversial, but one Xing Yi guy I know said Serge's internal work and the ability to fight with it was second to none in Europe.

[poulperadieux]

Out of interest, have you ever met Serge Augier in France? To some, a little controversial, but one Xing Yi guy I know said Serge's internal work and the ability to fight with it was second to none in Europe.


Don't, Won't... Never.

Too expensive, school too closed, weird students, won't develop on it anymore, I'm outta Paris and I'm trying (with little success but I progress every day), not to meddle with other schools ways or affairs, it's a waste of time, if the story doesn't concern you directly.

I was concerned directly witnessing Serge Augier's work, so I won't tell about him, don't know and never met him, but witnessed his work, witch kind of students he teaches.

Don't waste your time with internal sayan budokai prime masta, I met a lot of them, they don't compare to sportsmen, there's no ultimate truth to seek there, only madness if not layered with incompetence.

Chinese who thoroughly work Matial art, who fled the Chinese purges, and pest agains Communist watchers in "Les buttes Chaumont" Parc for exemple who invade the unofficial training places with Chinese communist folk crappy music and Official tai chi up from 7 am to 11 am and watch and take notes, from the distance...

Serious Chinese guys, or serious white or Black Guys I met there who worked with real people from the diaspora, some incredible stories of unusual people who sought the masters 30 years ago before they passed away, of fled the temples, they all say :

There's no internal, there's no external in martial arts, white people like to put names on things, to put things in boxes. We gave them that, Chinese are god in trading, selling what people want.

Just always remember, in in France and China the Customer is the King, in japan, the real proverb is : "The customer is GOD".

So, when white round eyed people want miracles, they give them, where there's only everyday work, without pains whatsoever, or kicking in pillars stuff, only cultivation, without competition, work for oneself.

It's not useful to work with the best if he doesn't teach.
Pro boxing coaches are usually not former world champions...


"Want to know about a girl before getting married, go to the swimming pool with her" Boris Vian "and with her mother" (me).


Want to know about a teacher, look at him and especially his students.

I'm a young School, less than a year, but I'm Picky, hope I'll manage to be so a long time if not ever.


(I wont read what I Wrote, I said too much things I didn't want to talk about, past is past and time taught me that for some people happiness comes back after some time...

Won't talk on the subject on pm, I don't do PM.)

[Paddington]

Don't, Won't... Never.

Too expensive, school too closed, weird students, won't develop on it anymore, I'm outta Paris and I'm trying (with little success but I progress every day), not to meddle with other schools ways or affairs, it's a waste of time, if the story doesn't concern you directly.

I was concerned directly witnessing Serge Augier's work, so I won't tell about him, don't know and never met him, but witnessed his work, witch kind of students he teaches.

Don't waste your time with internal sayan budokai prime masta, I met a lot of them, they don't compare to sportsmen, there's no ultimate truth to seek there, only madness if not layered with incompetence.

Chinese who thoroughly work Matial art, who fled the Chinese purges, and pest agains Communist watchers in "Les buttes Chaumont" Parc for exemple who invade the unofficial training places with Chinese communist folk crappy music and Official tai chi up from 7 am to 11 am and watch and take notes, from the distance...

Serious Chinese guys, or serious white or Black Guys I met there who worked with real people from the diaspora, some incredible stories of unusual people who sought the masters 30 years ago before they passed away, of fled the temples, they all say :

There's no internal, there's no external in martial arts, white people like to put names on things, to put things in boxes. We gave them that, Chinese are god in trading, selling what people want.

Just always remember, in in France and China the Customer is the King, in japan, the real proverb is : "The customer is GOD".

So, when white round eyed people want miracles, they give them, where there's only everyday work, without pains whatsoever, or kicking in pillars stuff, only cultivation, without competition, work for oneself.

It's not useful to work with the best if he doesn't teach.
Pro boxing coaches are usually not former world champions...


"Want to know about a girl before getting married, go to the swimming pool with her" Boris Vian "and with her mother" (me).


Want to know about a teacher, look at him and especially his students.

I'm a young School, less than a year, but I'm Picky, hope I'll manage to be so a long time if not ever.


(I wont read what I Wrote, I said too much things I didn't want to talk about, past is past and time taught me that for some people happiness comes back after some time...

Won't talk on the subject on pm, I don't do PM.)

Quoted for truth! Thanks for saying this.

[poulperadieux]

It's not me, I had the chance to be taught by people who met the actual guys, and who didn't sold me anything, told me no stories but testimonies of simple guys, sometimes poor in shanty towns (don't know if it's the real term, sorry for my english).

Dong Mun Yao for example, first time I saw him I had quite a shock : "this is how lives the guy everyone want to see for the white crane?
This is how all his students left him?
People are pigs, students kill their teachers and teachers destroy their students (it's not from me, not exactly quoted)

"Masters" in dirty shirts, multiple wives, beaufs as we say in France... How do you say? Redneck? Hooldums don't know.

They eat at the restaurant, they they humiliate the little white at the exit.

Grandpas you work with for free, than the grandson comes for the rent...


Chinese art, says someone I won't quote here, is a lot of trys and errors, and a lot of errors have been made.

Lot of legends have been made.


Lots of serious guys are in sports now, do amazing stuff...

I don't say the traditionalists are bad, one of my friends accuse me regularly of being a traditionalist... My bad.

But there are a few signs to run from the kwoon of a teacher who says he's a traditional master:

- All his students do the same thing
- He teaches the same thing to every student.
- His students say to you his art is complete, implying you don't need to go elsewhere
- He's got a lot of students that move like crap, drink tea in a corner of the room, are wearing advanced shirts, and are here for 5 years or more.
- He Teaches tai chi and Chi gong indoor exclusively
- He teaches Chi Gong as a separate thing from the fight

I've got a guide on martial arts written by teachers friend of mine or anonymous one, but in French on my website.
I'll translate it in another life.

By essence, and Yip Man is an exemple like Li Shuwren, Like another guy I don't have the right to quote, and some guy I won't quote because I'm incompetent, a Master from this year is someone who bring out the best from a student.

You dont teach a fish, an monkey and a dog how to climb a tree.

Every student is a different problem, and it's the student who teaches the professor how to guide him.

[Paddington]

poulperadieux, I should have chopped the quote to specify the bit I was referring to!

"Serious Chinese guys, or serious white or Black Guys I met there who worked with real people from the diaspora, some incredible stories of unusual people who sought the masters 30 years ago before they passed away, of fled the temples, they all say :

There's no internal, there's no external in martial arts, white people like to put names on things, to put things in boxes. We gave them that, Chinese are god in trading, selling what people want"

It was this sentiment that I thought struck true with me.

[guy b.]

Don't, Won't... Never.

Too expensive, school too closed, weird students, won't develop on it anymore, I'm outta Paris and I'm trying (with little success but I progress every day), not to meddle with other schools ways or affairs, it's a waste of time, if the story doesn't concern you directly.

...etc

What do you think of yiquan?

[poulperadieux]

What do you think of yiquan?


I think that yi quan people can be really condescending to Taikiken people, but never in front of them.

I haven't met any significant people in Yi quan until now, but I remember the pain in my rib cage and the hand mark from a 60 year old Kyokushin guy I met.

I could quote what people who were in china when the Yi quan appeared, a guy who is 60 year old now, but I won't, not on this forum, not anywhere.

I don't think anything about Yi quan, I've got too much to think with the arts I work on.


Why this question?

[guy b.]

Just asking.

[poulperadieux]

Just asking.


You do Yi quan, you are intersested in Yi Quan, What do you think of Yi Quan?
(I know Iknow, that's a bunch of questions !)

[guy b.]

You do Yi quan, you are intersested in Yi Quan, What do you think of Yi Quan?
(I know Iknow, that's a bunch of questions !)

http://www.purplecar.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/IMG_5582_2_21-200x300.jpg

[poulperadieux]

http://www.purplecar.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/IMG_5582_2_21-200x300.jpg

Ok, guy b. Noted.

[poulperadieux]

"L'interne est une technique de trou du cul, biologiquement exact, sociologiquement pertient" in Le Guide Des Arts Martiaux Selon Que T'es Con.

Encore une citation vérifiée.

Merci Guy !

[guy b.]

don't thank me, thank yourself

[poulperadieux]

don't thank me, thank yourself

That is why I don't like Yiquan guys, you take the orst of the commercial part of the energetic chinese stuff, they taught you wrong, and you found the ultimate truth.

There are guys still living doing what you dream to do, but verrry difficult to train with if you don't have the proper seal (but maybe you don't know what I'm talking about...).

[Ali. R]

There are guys still living doing what you dream to do, but verrry difficult to train with if you don't have the proper seal (but maybe you don't know what I'm talking about...).

Believe me; I’m sure he doesn’t know. He’s just working his subject and point clearly based off what you’re giving him (your responses). He’s only hiding behind BS, because he clearly doesn’t know (his trademark). All one has to do is read his posting very methodically to see what I’m saying.;)


Take care,

[poulperadieux]

don't thank me, thank yourself

Don't you want to talk about lemniscate stuff?

Share a bit, discuss?

Except using an old Chinese insulting metaphor that has no effect on a man of the Elsass Country like me.

You call me Aurchloch I may respond, but now I'm just sad I shared with you and you are just too proud to share with me.

Or maybe you've got nothing to share, so what the hell heing?


No kidding, I'm going to the pool right now, the weather is Awsome in Strasbourg today !:D

[guy b.]

That is why I don't like Yiquan guys, you take the orst of the commercial part of the energetic chinese stuff, they taught you wrong, and you found the ultimate truth.

There are guys still living doing what you dream to do, but verrry difficult to train with if you don't have the proper seal (but maybe you don't know what I'm talking about...).

I don't believe in magic, sorry.

Which "worst commercial part of Chinese energetic stuff" do yiquan guys get taught wrong before going on to believe they have the ultimate truth? Seems quite a generalisation, but I'm willing to believe it if you elaborate.

[guy b.]

Except using an old Chinese insulting metaphor that has no effect on a man of the Elsass Country like me.

I wasn't aware that I had insulted you. If I did then I didn't mean to

[poulperadieux]

I don't believe in magic, sorry.

Which "worst commercial part of Chinese energetic stuff" do yiquan guys get taught wrong before going on to believe they have the ultimate truth? Seems quite a generalisation, but I'm willing to believe it if you elaborate.


Nope.. You first, I don't like your troll manners, like we say in france : blblblblblbllblblblblblbllblb:D

[poulperadieux]

I wasn't aware that I had insulted you. If I did then I didn't mean to


Aware?

Like Jean Claude Van D'Hamme, I'm a fan too...


blbllblblblblblbl

[guy b.]

Nope.. You first, I don't like your troll manners, like we say in france : blblblblblbllblblblblblbllblb:D

I only asked what you thought of yiquan. You didn't answer. Then you were insulting about yiquan for some reason.

What do you want me to answer first?

[poulperadieux]

Nothing Really, don't care anymore.

[guy b.]

Nothing Really, don't care anymore.

Ok, glad we cleared that up

What do you think of yiquan?

[poulperadieux]

Ok, glad we cleared that up

What do you think of yiquan?

I Think that answering a question by another question is impolite, and I think I'm a better troll than you, I have prestige, don't you think so?:D

[guy b.]

I Think that answering a question by another question is impolite, and I think I'm a better troll than you, I have prestige, don't you think so?:D

Just aswer straightforwardly then if you don't want to be impolite.

Better troll? I am confused. Who would want to be good at that?

[PalmStriker]

You're not confused, just stoopid. A stupid troll, not even slightly amusing. :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GChsqe1jbdI

[anerlich]

Better troll? I am confused. Who would want to be good at that?

A fair number on this forum, I suggest. On occasion, I've chanced my own arm.

[poulperadieux]

Just aswer straightforwardly then if you don't want to be impolite.

Better troll? I am confused. Who would want to be good at that?


Who Wouldn't, being a good troll is so difficult these days.

[guy b.]

Who Wouldn't, being a good troll is so difficult these days.

Isn't getting emotionally involved a trolling fail?

[PalmStriker]

Isn't getting emotionally involved a trolling fail?

Getting kicked off a forum with no viewing privileges is a troll fail. Aren't there some trolling sites you can bond with and explore your shortcomings and personality disorder?

[poulperadieux]

Isn't getting emotionally involved a trolling fail?

Nope, I'm bipolar, so getting Emotional is my life, I'm so proud of it, like my model, the Doctor Kay Redfield Jamison, and Ng Mui, and Yim Wing Chun.

I'd like, one day, to have the same Bollocks as these wonderful girls.

Being a Troll, and a "hacker" sometimes, I always act when I have a cause.
When I'm Emotional.

I'm so proud of it now, less merit than these pioneers, who were the first ones, they shown the path.

I love my job, For now, I've got the privilege to be surrounded with exceptionnal women ho teach me how to use wing chun more than when I was only learning in a men loaded course.

Take Care Guy, You have my godfather's surname, I like you.

[guy b.]

Getting kicked off a forum with no viewing privileges is a troll fail. Aren't there some trolling sites you can bond with and explore your shortcomings and personality disorder?

I think bothering someone enough for them to ban and block you from a forum would probably class as a trolling "win".

But disagreeing isn't trolling. People that don't like the orthodoxy being questioned often shout troll when they don't have a reasoned counter argument. All of the great revolutionaries in history would be called trolls by this type of person.

[guy b.]

take care poulperadieux

[poulperadieux]

take care poulperadieux


I do I do.

After 12 years with false diagnostics and false Tratments, I start to find ressources since 1 year.

And The bipolarity isn't so much a disease, I see it as a superpower, a Marvel one uh.

[PalmStriker]

I do I do.

After 12 years with false diagnostics and false Tratments, I start to find ressources since 1 year.

And The bipolarity isn't so much a disease, I see it as a superpower, a Marvel one uh.
Are you left-handed?

[poulperadieux]

Are you left-handed?

Nearly ambidextrious now, starting a program on the dummy to train that more, and with the writing also.

"Train your left like than your right or your right will be as bad as your left" Leonard Terrone in karl Godwin essay on the Wooden Dummy


Why?

[PalmStriker]

Ten percent of the World's population are left=handed, our brains are wired differently, one of the commonalities is a high percentage of bi-polar activity, as well as dyslexia. Many famous people have been left-handers, including a high percentage of U.S. Presidents. http://www.indiana.edu/~primate/left.html

[poulperadieux]

I think I was left handed when I was little, I used to write either hand, in volley ball, I used both hands.

Bipolarity is associated with creativity, reading Dr Kay Redfield Jamison helped me a lot this Year, at least.