Why you don't understand "Internal" yet..

[Matthew]

NOTICE: It may not need saying - but this is all from my experience, not necessarily fact and certainly not the ultimate word.

Why don't you understand what "Internal" means yet?


It's because you don't understand what Chinese term is referencing. If someone said Internal - ask them to clarify.

For instance - in this very forum the section is called "Nei Jia" and references "The Internal Martial Arts".

________________________________________________
First, we need to look at the terms we are so often [mis]using!

Nei Jia （内家）is understood as both a geographic and family-transmission related term. Wai Jia (外家 ) means outer family. These are often translated simply as "Internal."

Better translated - they are "Inner/Within Family" and "Outer/Outside Family".


________________________________________________
Okay- but then what does internal practice mean?

Internal Practice/Skill in Chinese is called Nei Gong (内功). While it has varying functional definitions - it is the term most are referring to when they say that an art needs the "Internal" component. In very vague and general terms these are often practices that place higher emphasis on postural/structural, breathing, and mind coordinations.

External Practice/Skill in Chinese is called Wai Gong (外功）. Generally this refers to practices that place the most emphasis on the physical movements. E.g. ) "Do This", Now Step and Punch, Now Back up and Block, etc.

________________________________________________

Okay, so what is it!.

It exists as practice methods - the reason you may not think it exists is because you have not been exposed to any "Nei Gong" practice methods. Now that you know the terminology - you can start your own google search for Nei Gong, or the chinese terms 内功。

Another reason you may not believe is that there are semi-inconsistent definitions of it. It is a general term for Practice methods that are commonly associated with healing arts in chinese and is not specific to one or two methods.


________________________________________________
What's the difference then between internal and external?

In my experience:
Most practices are not mutually exclusive (purely external or internal), but there are good definable examples depending on who you ask and what level is being taught at.

Internal Practices often include very detailed breathing mechanics (that include physical elaborations on how to breath - speed, rate, sensations that assist), mental elaborations (that may include specific actions, parts of the body, or abstractions to focus on, or other), and after those are understood - sometimes a coordination of those combined with a physical elaboration (may be detailed postural work, structure refinement for tension reduction, static and dynamic postures, transitions, or other).

In some schools of Tai Chi, the Nei Gong is taught as a light contraction in specific parts of the abdomen during certain postural transitions and postures.

In the Shaolin ChanWuYi school, there are a wide variety of practices called Nei Yang Gong (内养功）- which means Internal Building Exercises. Similarly, there are Internal practice principles/guidelines (or Lian Fa 练法）that assist in incorporating these internal practices into every day movements - including coordinating specific mental coordination, breathing, and postural adjustments that can vary. (You can learn some basic ones on Chinese youtube directly from Shi De Jian's disciple Chan Sui Yin who teaches out of Hong Kong and has a youtube channel)

These are also related to the "Ba 把" from the shaolin phrase "Practicing Martial Arts without practicing "ba" is akin to swinging wildly (literally, recklessly hitting). It's preferred to teach 10 styles of fighting than teach a single "Ba" .
”练拳不练把 等于瞎胡打， 宁教十趟拳 不教一个把“

There are many forms of laying, seated, standing, and postural nei gongs as well and many styles have their own incorporated practices that are often not taught to beginner students for some reason. I believe there are even books in english available on Nei Gong - although I cannot attest to their quality.

________________________________________________
So why can't people explain why these Internal Practices are referred to as so great?

At a certain level, these practices cannot be described in words. Some arts have ways to check them (such as in Tai Chi there are pushing hands/sensitivity methods to test postural alignment), some depend on body feedback from various feelings, and may even be quantifiable if you could isolate the exercises (nei gong) to measurable things such as frequency/size of your poop, blood pressure levels, and more - all the way up to less quantifiable things such as subjective mood levels, abilities at work, sleep quality, etc.

Since the basics lay a path/foundation - the higher levels generally cannot be explained and are something that must be gained through experience on the path. The best way I could think to explain is that the Buddha attained enlightenment. He could not give you enlightenment even if he showed up in front of you - it is a path you must walk.

You could say the same of external skill though - that the body simply needs to be adjusted to it and over time through practice will be better.

________________________________________________
So where's the magic?

Don't know - I think people practicing looking for magic powers may end up disappointed. People looking to improve their health and general life abilities may be surprised if they can find a good teacher.

The magic IME is that most Nei Gong I have seen serves to relax, and naturally allow elongation and release of the Spinal tissue (Spinal Fascia tissue? I'm not an anatomy expert) while facilitating better blood/oxygen flow to the central "Dan Tian" region of the body.

Those improves comfort in lower back, reduces pressure along spine, and serves to assist in realignment/weight distribution through the pelvis. Those, IME, are the very foundational level benefits and the secondary, tertiary, etc. benefits are the "prime" reason for many people's practice - re: spiritual understanding

[I]Summary "TL; DR"

NeiJia / Nei Jia Quan is not what most people mean when they are talking about "Internal" skills of someone.

They are talking about Nei Gong - which means "Internal Practice/Skill" and has practice methods that exist and can be easily found online or from a legitimate teacher now that you know what term you are searching for.

[Dragonzbane76]

I equate "internal" to Bigfoot. All these people with cameras have never caught an actual vid or photo of him/her yet some swear he/she exists. it's about the same.

[xinyidizi]

I equate "internal" to Bigfoot. All these people with cameras have never caught an actual vid or photo of him/her yet some swear he/she exists. it's about the same.

Is it really that hard to search for videos of XYLH, Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi,... ? Do you expect the internal guys to fly and throw energy balls? :rolleyes: Internal(neijia) is just the name of a category in TCMA that emphasizes on more refined body mechanics as in spiral movements, 含胸塌腰（or 拔背）the unity of the body in motion, .... There are many similarities between the internal arts and the external arts but most people who have trained them both agree that arts like taiji,xinyi and bagua share more similarities regarding what I mentioned above and can be categorized in the same group.
Before some bodyguards and soldiers used to train them for killing their opponents and now that there is no need for that type of violence, parts of their training methods are are still practiced by hobbyists for different reasons mainly for enjoying the body connectivity and other health benefits that these practice methods can give them. There are also some people in these arts who do some combat training and have shown reasonable skills in sanshou competitions which you can also find on the internet.

[Miqi]

Dear Mathew,
Thanks for your insights on this.

What do you think of the Sam Tam video on the other thread?

[Dragonzbane76]

Do you expect the internal guys to fly and throw energy balls?

i'm sure not all believe that but I'm sure there is a high percentage out there that do.


There are many similarities between the internal arts and the external arts

that's because they are the same. You cannot have one without the other.

[David Jamieson]

I typically don't bother with convoluted and complicated explanations of what are often natural processes.

It brings results or it doesn't.

[Miqi]

I typically don't bother with convoluted and complicated explanations of what are often natural processes.

It brings results or it doesn't.

I dunno - I quite like theoretical stuff sometimes. Sometimes I read things and it 'clicks' and gives me an insight that I find really helpful. And sometimes it's good just to hear how other people view things.

However, I do agree on the importance of results - but the reality is, even the results will be argued over. One man's video proof of internal martial arts is another man's total fraud. All of us have a bit of 'belief' about our abilities - it's natural. And it's good, because a lack of self confidence can be self fulfilling. I sometimes think - an empty force demo is not all that different in terms of 'belief' to me thinking that 'if I was attacked in the street (again) I'd do this this and this....' We all have our theories.

[xinyidizi]

Neijia and Waijia are similar but not the same. Personally I feel the difference in training them quite clearly so for theoreticians I think it's reasonable to categorize them into different groups no matter what they should be called. However these internal/external theories don't really have much practical values. I have noticed that in Nanyang, Zhoukou, Chenjiagou no one cares what is internal or external as well as other flowery theories unless they want to milk rich foreigners or waidiren(the Chinese from outside of Henan).

[David Jamieson]

The results of good training:

- Good or Great structure of the body. Alignment that produces position of power
- Clarity of mind, ability to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done
- Physical strength and growth of it
- Physical endurance and stamina and the growth of it
- Physical grace and growth of it
- Fortitude - the ability to recover quickly from harsh assault and to answer it

This is results to me.

When students enter, they usually have little in the way of any of these. If you see these developing, they are the results of the training they receive. If they are not developing these, there is something missing or they are not following the prescribed actions to be carried out. :)

[RickMatz]

An interesting article on "internal" vs "external" at Kung Fu Tea (http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/04/10/from-the-archives-can-southern-chinese-kung-fu-ever-be-internal/) blog.

[YouKnowWho]

We can't talk about "internal vs, external" without talking about the linkage between "internal and external". No matter how long that you have trained your Chi Gong, and no matter how long that you have punched on your heavy bag, if your can't use your breathing to coordinate with your punch/kick, your "internal" still cannot be able to apply to the combat.

[Dragonzbane76]

like I said they are the same. you cannot have one without the other. Giving it a "pretty" name doesn't change that.

[SPJ]

1 Ba or Shi or ba shi

understanding and practice one posture well is more important

= to master one posture well is more important

= quality is better than quantity

ba= shi = ba shi = posture

2 gong fa = lian fa

how to practice or drill the moves the right way

--

:)

[Matthew]

Internal(neijia) is just the name of a category in TCMA

Hi xinyidizi,

I wasn't explicit enough in my post on this point (I will add a summary to the post).

The term NeiJia is not "Internal" term that most are using from what I can tell.

It is NeiGong/WaiGong.

That is - "Internal Skill/Practice" and includes a wide range of specific practice methods among various styles and practices in China (martial arts, to healing, to buddhist/taoist practices, etc.)

More important to note is that many different arts contain some sort of Nei Gong that have different titles. In Shaolin ChanWuYi - the term NeiYangGong is a widearching term for various health giving NeiGongs. There are simple breathing neigongs, moving, seated, laying etc.

In one XinYi branch I saw they use the term "DanTianGong" for something similar as well,

so terminology may vary... but NeiGong, being a different term from NeiJia, does refer to actual practice methods.

[YouKnowWho]

It is NeiGong/WaiGong.
Since NeiGong may have nothing to do with combat, why do we want to use "NeiGong" to define "internal"?

[Matthew]

Dear Mathew,
Thanks for your insights on this.

What do you think of the Sam Tam video on the other thread?

Hi Miqi,

I'm not sure what video - could you PM or post it on my wall and I'll respond there. I didn't want to participate because it was flaming in the other thread.

There wasn't anyone trying to actually define what terms they were using. Some were clearly using "NeiJia" terms for "Internal" and not actually discussing "NeiGong" or Internal Practice Methods.

.. So I figured it would be a good time to actually post on the two "Internal" terms that are tripping so many people up.

My post didn't really contain much insight, but it more so from a foundational level of Chinese than it is from being an experienced practitioner.

[Matthew]

Since NeiGong may have nothing to do with combat, why do we want to define "internal" as "NeiGong"?

Your quote assumes we are defining internal.

We aren't - it's already defined. We are merely correcting a misunderstood translation.

There are two terms being confused a here that are both being translated the same as the english word "Internal."

The issue I see - 2 Chinese terms with pre-existing definitions/associations - but only 1 english word being used.

[Miqi]

Hi Miqi,

I'm not sure what video - could you PM or post it on my wall and I'll respond there. I didn't want to participate because it was flaming in the other thread.

There wasn't anyone trying to actually define what terms they were using. Some were clearly using "NeiJia" terms for "Internal" and not actually discussing "NeiGong" or Internal Practice Methods.

.. So I figured it would be a good time to actually post on the two "Internal" terms that are tripping so many people up.

My post didn't really contain much insight, but it more so from a foundational level of Chinese than it is from being an experienced practitioner.

Hi Mathew,
This is the link from the other thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgARo...ure=windscreen

As you know, it's difficult sometimes to understand where someone is coming from just from words. I figure videos like that are good guides to where someone is coming from, either in their support or opposition to them.

However, I see where you're coming from: you're making a distinction between Chinese terms. I didn't know that the terms had those different meanings - so thanks. At least to me, that was a useful post.

[xinyidizi]

Hi xinyidizi,

I wasn't explicit enough in my post on this point (I will add a summary to the post).

The term NeiJia is not "Internal" term that most are using from what I can tell.

It is NeiGong/WaiGong.

That is - "Internal Skill/Practice" and includes a wide range of specific practice methods among various styles and practices in China (martial arts, to healing, to buddhist/taoist practices, etc.)

More important to note is that many different arts contain some sort of Nei Gong that have different titles. In Shaolin ChanWuYi - the term NeiYangGong is a widearching term for various health giving NeiGongs. There are simple breathing neigongs, moving, seated, laying etc.

In one XinYi branch I saw they use the term "DanTianGong" for something similar as well,

so terminology may vary... but NeiGong, being a different term from NeiJia, does refer to actual practice methods.


Hi, it's a good thing that you mentioned the difference between them. The problem is that many of the members have mixed their definitions. They mean neigong but when they say "the internal guys" they refer to taiji,bagua,... people.

[YouKnowWho]

I have many friends who trains Nei Gong but they can't care lese about combat. I assume the "internal" that we are talking about in this forum has to do with combat. If we can separate combat away from health, performance, self-cultivation, and inner peace, there will be less confusion in our discussion.

[xinyidizi]

I have many friends who trains Nei Gong but they can't care lese about combat. I assume the "internal" that we are talking about in this forum has to do with combat. If we can separate combat away from health, performance, self-cultivation, and inner peace, there will be less confusion in our discussion.

Refusing to train combat and focusing on health and neigong is very common but it doesn't mean that those who train for combat should refuse to train neigong as well and personally I think that the most remarkable thing in TCMA especially is the neijia is the integration of both. Neigong is about improving the Qi flow which can improve the internal organs for health and open the body so that you can transfer the power faster for combat. This openness can give you the pengjin and also the ability to move without losing it which are the prerequisites for any meaningful taiji combat training. Neigong includes both 静功 and 动功 and since the neijia arts were designed based on daoyin， if you practice their moves you are already practicing 动功 which is why many practitioners develop Qi sensations naturally without needing to think about the Qi stuff. Whether or not a combat oriented martial arts practitioner needs to do more than that and develop deeper sensations by training 静功 is really a personal choice and depends on the teacher as well the student but probably it's not that necessary.

[xinyidizi]

Neigong and Waigong are two relative and inseprable terms describing our every action and in combat work together from the most internal layer to the most external level in this order: 1-Heart: Your instinct tells you that you are in danger and it's time to punch 2- Awareness: Through training you have gained full awareness over your body and know how to do a fast and powerful punch and you also have a good awareness of your opponent and know how to use the best angle 3- Qi: In order to generate a fast and powerful punch your meridians should have been opened. 4-Li: In order to generate a fast and powerful punch you should have strong muscles And your muscles need to coordinate your joints to make it actually happen

There is no way to separate some of theses steps from each other but it's possible to focus more on one of them. I think what people mean by neigong is the exercises focusing on the third step but in my opinion actual fighting and sparring work on even more internal aspects which are the instinct and awareness of the fighter. I think it's logical that in TCMA we usually start from half of step 2 ,step 3 and 4 because uncontrolled instinct is difficult to work with and we should be aware of our own body before being aware of others, however after relative proficiency we should immediately add combat because instinct and being aware of the opponent are even more internal.

[YouKnowWho]

it doesn't mean that those who train for combat should refuse to train neigong ...

If you just want to develop a good "single leg", do you really need to train neigong?

[Matthew]

Refusing to train combat and focusing on health and neigong is very common but it doesn't mean that those who train for combat should refuse to train neigong as well

It may be even more directly related to "Combat" ability than eating well and behaving well - as it lies at the core of any external/physical movement of the body.

[xinyidizi]

If you just want to develop a good "single leg", do you really need to train neigong?

I don't train it but I have trained various defense techniques using xinyi's internal shenfa.

[YouKnowWho]

Last time when I was in "北京体育大学 (Beijing Sport University)", I had a discussion with the Chinese Olympic Judo and wrestling team coach on this subject "Can Neigon be able to help in their training?" The coach told me that he couldn't see any advantage to ask his team members to train Neigon (there are a lot of Neigon teachers available in China).

I'm not sure whether Neigon can be helpful in boxing, TKD, running, jumping, ..., and other Olympic sports.

I'm sure the Chinese government would get all the Neigon instructors in China inorder to help them to obtain more Olympic gold metals. If they don't take that path, what does that tell us?

[xinyidizi]

These athletes train their li very hard get their medals, expire in a few years and usually go back home with lots of permanent injuries. I'd say their objectives are very different.

[bawang]

These athletes train their li very hard get their medals, expire in a few years and usually go back home with lots of permanent injuries. I'd say their objectives are very different.

modern training that relies on steroid abuse is bad for your body. internal coward trainnig is bad for your spirit.

modern "sports science" is yang corruption. internal "cultivation" is yin corruption.

[YouKnowWho]

There is no prove that people who trains "static" Neigon can be more healthy. My teacher told me that one of his friends who trained Neigon all his life ended with paralized from the waist down.

http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/6928/staticmeditation.jpg

When you move a

- tree, that tree will die.
- person, that person will live longer.

[xinyidizi]

There is no prove that people who trains "static" Neigon can be more healthy. My teacher told me that one of his friends who trained Neigon all his life ended with paralized from the waist down.

http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/6928/staticmeditation.jpg

When you move a

- tree, that tree will die.
- person, that person will live longer.

I don't know about that but as far as dong gong goes, I have seen many XYLH practitioners aging between 80~104 and most of them can still move and even fight well.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't know about that but as far as dong gong goes, I have seen many XYLH practitioners aging between 80~104 and most of them can still move and even fight well.

Old Chinese saying said, "If you train Tan Tui 10 times daily, water (cold) and fire (heat) won't be able to bother you any more. If you train Tan Tui 20 times daily, you should be able to reach immortality."

As long as you can keep yourself "Dong", you should be able to live through your old age. We can't use "internal" as execuse for "not moving".

[xinyidizi]

No doubt that moving is better but l wouldn't say that jinggong doesn't have any benefits. Usually in both XYLH and Chen there is very little emphasis on standing postures but in my own experience standing can teach you sinking into the kua and pengjin(or 撑劲）much faster than doing the form and after learning that we can start moving without losing that feeling. That's why for a period of time I tried it and got good results. Now I don't spend much time on standing as I think at this point moving is more important in my training. So IMHO what is good or bad really depends on different circumstances and things that are important at some point might not be as important at another time.

[xinyidizi]

modern training that relies on steroid abuse is bad for your body. internal coward trainnig is bad for your spirit.

modern "sports science" is yang corruption. internal "cultivation" is yin corruption.

I agree TCMA is dominated by cowards now.

[YouKnowWho]

No doubt that moving is better but l wouldn't say that jinggong doesn't have any benefits. Usually in both XYLH and Chen there is very little emphasis on standing postures but in my own experience standing can teach you sinking into the kua and penguin(or 撑劲）much faster than doing the form and after learning that we can start moving without losing that feeling. That's why for a period of time I tried it and got good results. Now I don't spend much time on standing as I think at this point moving is more important in my training. So IMHO what is good or bad really depends on different circumstances and things that are important at some point might not be as important at another time.
I do posture training all the time. It can "enhance" my combat skill but it's not combat skill by itself.
http://imageshack.us/a/img408/8945/13taibu.jpg

When people spend most of their time in posture training, they just got their priority wrong. To be able to knock/throw your opponent down ASAP should be the highest priority in TCMA training.

[Matthew]

I'm sure the Chinese government would get all the Neigon instructors in China inorder to help them to obtain more Olympic gold metals. If they don't take that path, what does that tell us?

They're using Tai Chi for this to some extent. I remember seeing some short documentary that included one of their female TKD olympians who said her biggest secret was Tai Chi precisely.

Although I don't know the quality or depth of instruction - and I certainly don't know what Nei Gong / internal principles are taught by various tai chi teachers - and I'm not equating general "Tai Chi" with "Nei Gong" although some Nei Gong principles may be taught passively or directly through Tai Chi teachers.

[Matthew]

There is no prove that people who trains "static" Neigon can be more healthy.

http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/6928/staticmeditation.jpg

When you move a

- tree, that tree will die.
- person, that person will live longer.

Neigong, IME, is really just a foundation that external movements are built upon - so it seems you are implying NeiGong = Static training only - which I think is wrong.

NeiGong and Zhuang Gong (stance training) are not the same, although Nei Gong can support Zhuang Gong.

[Matthew]

internal "cultivation" is yin corruption.

in a society where most people have yang exercise (moving houses, gardening work, lifting weights, running, physical labor, house renovation, chores, and other daily requirements etc etc.).. adding internal cultivation brings a balance, not a corruption.

Further most Nei Gong serves as a base for external - to address both the inside and outside.

Even more so today where people suffer mental disorders - and high levels of relative stress, mental exhaustion, etc. - internal cultivation can help address "depleted yin energy"

[xinyidizi]

in a society where most people have yang exercise (moving houses, gardening work, lifting weights, running, physical labor, house renovation, chores, and other daily requirements etc etc.).. adding internal cultivation brings a balance, not a corruption.

Further most Nei Gong serves as a base for external - to address both the inside and outside.

Even more so today where people suffer mental disorders - and high levels of relative stress, mental exhaustion, etc. - internal cultivation can help address "depleted yin energy"

I think it's about overdoing that in martial arts. It's fine if someone says that he only teaches yangsheng but in most cases they brag about how awesome they are in fighting and mislead their students. After a few years of forms and a huge amount of money many of their students haven't even done simple push hands let alone combat. Finding a TCMA class that actually trains fighting as they are supposed to is getting harder and harder these days. Even the teachers who know how to fight seem to prefer making easy money by just teaching forms and spiritual stuff to rich people.

[bawang]

in a society where most people have yang exercise (moving houses, gardening work, lifting weights, running, physical labor, house renovation, chores, and other daily requirements etc etc.).. adding internal cultivation brings a balance, not a corruption.

when you meditate for health, its great. when you do it to gain esoteric powers, its corruption.



Even more so today where people suffer mental disorders - and high levels of relative stress, mental exhaustion, etc. - internal cultivation can help address "depleted yin energy"
internal cultivation is great. you just cant fight with it.


you are living in self denial. you say your internal is not magic. but deep inside you know its magic of the purest form, its all the magic you ever dreamed of, all the power you ever lusted ever after. you have defeated people who have beaten and humiliated you by the power of your imagination.

[YouKnowWho]

Do people know that the ending move of the Yang Taiji form 合太极(He Taiji) is Neigon by itself. It can be used to accumulate Qi to your Dantian. A friend of mine had a workshop and charger $75 just to train that move.

[YouKnowWho]

Neigong, IME, is really just a foundation that external movements are built upon - so it seems you are implying NeiGong = Static training only - which I think is wrong.

NeiGong and Zhuang Gong (stance training) are not the same, although Nei Gong can support Zhuang Gong.
Many TCMA systems develop from outside in instead of inside out. Systems such as XingYi, SC, ... When you generate power, your body should be functioned as a "balloon".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
古传形意拳歌诀中，说可以通过发声来长功夫，名为「虎豹雷音」..........
In ancient xingyi Quan, it was said that one can use voice to enhance Kung Fu Known as "Hu Bao Lei Yin" ... ... ....

尚云祥解释，练拳练到一定程度，骨骼筋肉都已爽利坚实，此时功夫要向身内走，就是要沁进五脏六腑。但这一步 很难，就要用发声来接引一下，声音由内向外，劲力由外向内，里应外合一下，功夫方能成就。

Shang Yunxiang interpretation, when you have trained your XingYi to a certain degree, your bone, muscle are already strong. Now you will need to develop your Kung Fu outside in and to make your internal organs strong too. This step is very difficult. You will need to use your voice to connect it. Your voice come from inside out. Your power come from outside in. Your Kung Fu will then be completed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually the "虎豹雷音(Hu Bao Lei Yin) - tiger leopard and thunder sound" used in the XinYi system is not this loud. It should be similiar to cat or dog breathing sound. It can be used to connect between "internal" and "external".

Here is an example how people use "虎豹雷音(Hu Bao Lei Yin) - tiger leopard and thunder sound" to connect "internal Qi" and "external force".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kNadlBi7EE

[Matthew]

when you meditate for health, its great.

I agree - meditating for health can be great - which is probably why so many MMA schools and athletes are taking up meditation. It can improve mental faculties, and physical health - which can contribute to improvement in other areas in life that people focus on.


internal cultivation is great. you just cant fight with it.

This is really where every thread that involves mention of Nei Gong sadly goes to.

xinyidizi already laid it out well - that the issue is actually in teachers making false claims about what they're selling.

Fighting is pretty simply just throw your arms around. Some boxers spend their whole life training 4 punches and they can fight better than we ever will.

[Matthew]

Many TCMA systems develop from outside in instead of inside out. Systems such as XingYi, SC,

Good - but I don't know why this is relative to a thread specifically aimed at assisting non-chinese speakers in understanding the definition of mistranslated terms Nei Gong/Nei Jia.



In ancient xingyi Quan

We could also mention -
XinYi (not XingYi) has lineages currently-to-this-day preserving material from before divergence with "modern XingYi"

Some of those start with Standing stake, internal nei gongs, and internal practices.

But this is historical detail and would be better suited for a new thread of its own topic - wouldn't it? I would participate in such a thread if you want to start it

[Matthew]

I think it's about overdoing that in martial arts. It's fine if someone says that he only teaches yangsheng but in most cases they brag about how awesome they are in fighting and mislead their students.

I agree - and I think people making outrageous claims may be the issue more-so than people merely teaching YangSheng/Health Giving practices.

It is very hard to find a good teacher of most anything. Students also have the responsibility IMO of harboring some doubts about their teachers.

A saying goes: "Never fully believe, nor fully doubt your teacher. Either one will bring about shallow understanding."



After a few years of forms and a huge amount of money many of their students haven't even done simple push hands let alone combat. Finding a TCMA class that actually trains fighting as they are supposed to is getting harder and harder these days. Even the teachers who know how to fight seem to prefer making easy money by just teaching forms and spiritual stuff to rich people.

Thanks - I think this is well put.

I think the fact that people on this forum are aware of this concern itself is a cause for turn-around in the future.

Most threads I read end up with people fed up that there "is no real TCMA left"..

..but at the same time they are throwing out the baby with the bath water by ignoring Nei Gong and health giving methods that are an integral part of TCMA.


That's why I started this thread.

Hoping to quell so many wasted posts/threads by people who don't speak enough Chinese to know that Nei Gong doesn't always mean Magic Daoist Immortality Flying Fireballs.

[bawang]

Fighting is pretty simply just throw your arms around. Some boxers spend their whole life training 4 punches and they can fight better than we ever will.

and yet you wrote a 500 word essay on internal. this is why you fail. not only as a martial artist, but as a human being.

[YouKnowWho]

and yet you wrote a 500 word essay on internal. this is why you fail. not only as a martial artist, but as a human being.
I like to use just 7 words to define "internal" as to "integrate your breathing with your power generation".

[Robinhood]

internal cultivation is great. you just cant fight with it.




Just because you can't use it, does not mean other people can't use it, your comment seems to be what most people say who have no direct knowledge of internal development .

If you actually knew something about internal development, ... you would not make such ignorant comments about something you obviously don't have first hand knowledge of.

:)

[bawang]

just because you can't use it, does not mean other people can't use it, your comment seems to be what most people say who have no direct knowledge of internal development .

If you actually knew something about internal development, ... You would not make such ignorant comments about something you obviously don't have first hand knowledge of.

:)

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Robinhood]

I like to use just 7 words to define "internal" as to "integrate your breathing with your power generation".


no, that is just common working of body.

Internal is getting the mind to lead the body, not muscle it.

[PalmStriker]

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Hey! That looks like Peter from "Family Guy" ! :)

[PalmStriker]

INTERNAL = Touchy-feely zi zi wu bu.
EXTERNAL= Yangfu fist in your face.

[rett]

Nice thread.:) Does anyone have a link to Chan Sui Yin's youtube channel?

[PalmStriker]

I remember when Kungfu Styles were referred to as being Hardstyle or Softstyle, or both. As in Aikido=soft, TaeKwanDo=hard. :) Both require breath control.

[Matthew]

Nice thread.:) Does anyone have a link to Chan Sui Yin's youtube channel?

It looks like she may have taken down some older lectures she had up with Master De Jian - > but here is her channel either way

http://www.youtube.com/user/ShaolinChanWuYi/videos?view=0&flow=grid

I know there are some of the NeiYangGong videos done directly with Master De Jian himself. and yes, on Chinese youtube you must sit through ads.

I believe this is just an excerpt from the below link with his lectures, but here are his "introductory Health Building exercises (Nei Yang Gong)"

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTA4MDcyMDAw.html

Here is a multiple series lecture by him (I think 8 or so videos in):
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODYyOTkyNjg=.html

Let me find more links that discuss Nei Gong/its integration into TCMA in English!

[mawali]

I remember when Kungfu Styles were referred to as being Hardstyle or Softstyle, or both. As in Aikido=soft, TaeKwanDo=hard. :) Both require breath control.

Sometimes I wonder if I am at Dairy Queen or Sonic! Hard style or Soft style?

[rett]

It looks like she may have taken down some older lectures she had up with Master De Jian - > but here is her channel either way

http://www.youtube.com/user/ShaolinChanWuYi/videos?view=0&flow=grid

I know there are some of the NeiYangGong videos done directly with Master De Jian himself. and yes, on Chinese youtube you must sit through ads.

I believe this is just an excerpt from the below link with his lectures, but here are his "introductory Health Building exercises (Nei Yang Gong)"

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTA4MDcyMDAw.html

Here is a multiple series lecture by him (I think 8 or so videos in):
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODYyOTkyNjg=.html

Let me find more links that discuss Nei Gong/its integration into TCMA in English!

Thanks. I'd lost my bookmark and couldn't figure out the right search terms.

Funny with the Chinese KFC ads. They made a big point of showing how well the chickens live in the factory. I wonder if there's a nascent concern for the welfare of food-animals in China, or if that's just to show the animals are healthy so it's safe to eat.

[extrajoseph]

External (wai) = What your body would do outside, it is visible.
Internal (nei) = What your body would do inside, it is not visible.
Jia (family) in Waijia and Neijia is a term used to group those martial arts that emphazise one aspect over another, but just like a Taiji Tu, the seed of its complementary opposite is always there.
In the end, all movements involve both the external and the internal, the seen an the unseen, one cannot do without the other.
One is not better than the other, one needs the other to function better.

[YouKnowWho]

The "internal" system cares more about health than the "external" system does. The "internal" system such as XingYi even separate "health" training and "combat" training as 2 complete different training methods. In

- health training, you punch out soft and pull back hard.
- combat training, you punch out hard and pull back soft.

How can you kill someone by punching out "soft".

[Robinhood]

The "internal" system cares more about health than the "external" system does. The "internal" system such as XingYi even separate "health" training and "combat" training as 2 complete different training methods. In

- health training, you punch out soft and pull back hard.
- combat training, you punch out hard and pull back soft.

How can you kill someone by punching out "soft".

What kind of punch kills someone ?, I don't see any dead MMA matches.

[rett]

The "internal" system cares more about health than the "external" system does. The "internal" system such as XingYi even separate "health" training and "combat" training as 2 complete different training methods. In

- health training, you punch out soft and pull back hard.
- combat training, you punch out hard and pull back soft.

How can you kill someone by punching out "soft".

How can you shoot someone by meticulously cleaning your gun?

What I mean by that is I believe there's a limit to how much you can punch hard in the air or hit bags with power before you start damaging your shoulders and elbows more than you're improving your strength. Soft training that also cares for and repairs the body has a place, at least for someone training a lot.

[Matthew]

The "internal" system cares more about health than the "external" system does.

I agree that Internal practice nourishes health more directly - but I really disagree that they are entirely seperate.

I have seen many "purely" nei gong exercises, but they are usually foundational, not intended to be an entire system,

most I have been exposed to beyond those foundational exercises all include external components and are not so mutually exclusive as many make it sound.



How can you kill someone by punching out "soft".

If you wanted to kill someone, a fist is probably not the best way to do it.

IME - punching with tension, from an isolated shoulder, with a full extended arm, etc. all are like driving with the breaks on.

[Matthew]

I want to post more resources so people can get a better educated idea on what people mean when they say "Internal." That is - it is not "moving slowly with coordinated breath" but far more wholly encompassing.

Note - I'm not posting these various different traditions, teachers, styles, etc for people to learn from - as many have different practice methods that may contradict each other.

I'm only posting for reference so people know it doesn't mean throwing fireballs and is actually something practical and beneficial to practice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Here is another branch of Xin Yi other than Shaolin ChanWuYi that practices very similar Nei Yang Gong. Sorry not in english, but still of interest.

They call it Dan Tian Gong - which is a general term Master De Jian himself uses sometimes:

Skip to 5 Minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2jnB6K0qCw

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a Wu/Yang style Tai Chi teacher describing their lineages "Nei Gong" (they call it internal discipline in english):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIcstWYHW5w - Solo Video of him alone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfjFIXyZ5TQ -Video of him teaching others

http://www.classicaltaichi.com/internal-discipline.html - His Page

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is Bruce Frantzis (tai chi/bagua/xingyi teacher) describing his Nei Gong practices in english:
http://taiji-europa.eu/tai-chi-taiji/more-articles/interviews/bruce-kumar-frantzis/ -Interview



Without the application of real Neigong principles you will find that your Taiji will have barriers at each point and without Neigong you won’t go past them.

Then the question becomes, “Can I learn the movements of a Taiji form and not really be doing Taiji but make it work for fighting?” Sure you can, because Taiji comes out of Shaolin and as long as you are able to move in such a way, to parry a punch and make them go down, you’ll be fine. By the same token, a good street fighter can make up his own Taiji form, in the pub when he’s drunk, as long as he can slam the guy in the head and knock him out, then he’s got an effective martial art. .....

if you’re talking about the original creation of the art then there’s no way of being effective in fighting without the Neigong. It’s like trying to buy a plane ticket without money; it’s not going to work.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Our resident forum poster Sal Canzonieri,

has his own programs that include Neigong:

Where he categorizes Nei Gong as relating to "Self Transformation" and "Integrated Body/Mind" benefits.

http://www.jindaolife.com/JindaoProgram.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Others please contribute too!

Unfortunately, I don't think people will be able to glimpse the mind-teachings of it without a good teacher first hand, so I realize much of this postings will not accomplish that goal.

Instead I am aiming to exposing fellow "westerners" (who may have little exposure to this type of material judging by many of these forum threads) to the pragmatic methods that Nei Gong provides for Martial Arts, Health, and beyond.

[mawali]

Neigong (among other descriptives) was never a single pattern of teaching or instruction. The concept was the same but every group had their own 'neigong' method. As a matter of fact, prior to the naming of qigong per today, many systems were called neigong, neiyanggong, yangshenggong, etc. so if the principle and concept was there. nothing else was needed.

Even today when many 'modern' teachers do their stuff, they often leave out the neigong parts of training. As you can see, even when people teach taijiquan, they just teach the form and that is the tai chi we often see!

[Miqi]

Unfortunately, I don't think people will be able to glimpse the mind-teachings of it without a good teacher first hand, so I realize much of this postings will not accomplish that goal.

Instead I am aiming to exposing fellow "westerners" (who may have little exposure to this type of material judging by many of these forum threads) to the pragmatic methods that Nei Gong provides for Martial Arts, Health, and beyond.

Hi Mathew,
given that the videos you show are 'nei gong' - what then is the next step in terms of developing practical skill, and do these people show the next step? Or, do we have videos of the next step? And also, videos of the final product?

Also, do you have videos of you practicing?

[Matthew]

Hi Mathew,
given that the videos you show are 'nei gong' - what then is the next step in terms of developing practical skill, and do these people show the next step?


IMO, it depends on what overarching goals you are practicing for.

It sounds that you may have more pointed questions that you are curious about (if I only can judge from this post) - feel free to PM me, I love to talk about these.

If sharing with you my own personal path would help - I would be happy to share, but I don't think it would contribute to this thread, so PM or on my wall if you want.



Or, do we have videos of the next step?

This really depends on what your foundation is. Generally internal Nei Gong practice starts very foundationally with Zhan Zhuang (standing stake) in extremely low-strain posture, are aimed at developing sensitivity to the breathing, elongating postural muscles, bringing blood, oxygen (and Qi if you believe it) to the "dan tian" or core of your body, which opens up the pelvis, connects legs and mis-section, improves digestion, - and further can serve to allow reflection and elimination of discursive thoughts - to purify your conscious mind over time. From there, breathing, mind practice methods, and others usually vary from school to school depending on the goal.

From there - different schools add in different components. Some use intent and move their intent around, some are "Natural" schools that don't worry about that - some go right into static postures and some move through dynamic ones.

I think videos cannot get a very strong fundamental practice of Nei Gong/Internal Arts from purely video- only because there are too many details that are easily missed or practiced incorrectly.

IMO, even if you could articulate those details in video - you would still have too many detailed questions you need to ask.

Not to mention any postural details that need to be checked or ensured by a teacher (or even emotional/mental details if you have that type of student-teacher relationship).



And also, videos of the final product?

We first have to know what we aim to achieve - what is the "final product" you are looking for - and how your life-constraints reasonably allow you to achieve that goal - right?



Also, do you have videos of you practicing?

Some - but I don't believe they'd be of any benefit to anyone other than my own practice and reflection.

I'd meet people in person, but I don't think I'd send videos of myself to anyone I didn't have a relatively trusting or personal relationship with.

[YouKnowWho]

IMO, it depends on what overarching goals you are practicing for.
The goal is simple - "combat".


what then is the next step ... the final product?

This is my concern too. In the Taiji system, where is the step beyond "push hands"? Had any Taiji master ever defined that?

[Miqi]

IMO, it depends on what overarching goals you are practicing for.

It sounds that you may have more pointed questions that you are curious about (if I only can judge from this post) - feel free to PM me, I love to talk about these.


Hi Mathew,
Here I'm just going off what you said about explaining the use of neigong for combat and other practices.

Let's take it as a given that slow movement has at least some form of health benefits and ask what the next steps are in terms of general practical application.

For example, I also use zhan zhuang and slow movement - I don't 'not' believe in 'qi' but I don't use the concept as part of my training, nor do I use any kind of breathing training (breathing should be natural in yiquan) - I'm just trying to develop finer motor control and relaxed, whole body power. When I punch slowly, my punch movement has the same structure and movement as when I hit the bag - because there is a functional progression from one to the other in the theory of what I do. I assume this is the same for what you're explaining. But...
I don't inderstand the videos where people are touched lightly and fly off - so I wonder if there is any videos of people hitting a bag form the nei gong lines you recommend.




If sharing with you my own personal path would help - I would be happy to share, but I don't think it would contribute to this thread, so PM or on my wall if you want.

I won't press you to show your level - we're all amateurs and not claiming anything out of the ordinary. But I think it helps everyone if we can see other people's level - at least, as far as we can understand what they show. I'm just interested really.




This really depends on what your foundation is. Generally internal Nei Gong practice starts very foundationally with Zhan Zhuang (standing stake) in extremely low-strain posture, are aimed at developing sensitivity to the breathing, elongating postural muscles, bringing blood, oxygen (and Qi if you believe it) to the "dan tian" or core of your body, which opens up the pelvis, connects legs and mis-section, improves digestion, - and further can serve to allow reflection and elimination of discursive thoughts - to purify your conscious mind over time. From there, breathing, mind practice methods, and others usually vary from school to school depending on the goal.



From there - different schools add in different components. Some use intent and move their intent around, some are "Natural" schools that don't worry about that - some go right into static postures and some move through dynamic ones.

Well that sounds very much like parts of the training that I do as well.




I think videos cannot get a very strong fundamental practice of Nei Gong/Internal Arts from purely video- only because there are too many details that are easily missed or practiced incorrectly.

IMO, even if you could articulate those details in video - you would still have too many detailed questions you need to ask.

Not to mention any postural details that need to be checked or ensured by a teacher (or even emotional/mental details if you have that type of student-teacher relationship).


Yes I'm sure that this is true. I just wonder what other people do after this level - i.e. this is a given common set of exercises, but where do other people take it? What is a good application video from your perspective? (Let's face it - this is all we have over the net!)



Some - but I don't believe they'd be of any benefit to anyone other than my own practice and reflection.

I'd meet people in person, but I don't think I'd send videos of myself to anyone I didn't have a relatively trusting or personal relationship with.

That's fine, of course - no one who claims little owes anyone a demo - but any chance of illustrating the concepts with videos of the next, more fight oriented levels that proceed from this?

Best,
Miqi

[YouKnowWho]

I wonder if there is any videos of people hitting a bag form the nei gong lines you recommend ... but any chance of illustrating the concepts with videos of the next, more fight oriented levels that proceed from this?
In another internal forum, some people talked about "internal" this and "internal" that. I had asked those "internal" experts to provide video clip proof (such as by using nei gong to hit on a heavy bag), I have waited for those kind of clips for the past 15 years. Those clips still haven't come out yet. What's the chance that you think you may get those clips today?

I want to see at least one clip that someone uses "internal" to hit on a heavy bag and prove that he can hit that heavy bag harder than I can. Is that too much to ask for?

[Robinhood]

In another internal forum, some people talked about "internal" this and "internal" that. I had asked those "internal" experts to provide video clip proof (such as by using nei gong to hit on a heavy bag), I have waited for those kind of clips for the past 15 years. Those clips still haven't come out yet. What's the chance that you think you may get those clips today?

I want to see at least one clip that someone uses "internal" to hit on a heavy bag and prove that he can hit that heavy bag harder than I can. Is that too much to ask for?

I don't thinkl anyone claims they can hit a heavy bag harder with internal, look toward internal being more efficient and accurate, and takes less time and effort to execute techniques. It more along the lines of focused lines of force or energy , its not about wasting energy muscling inanimate objects , but interacting with alive objects.

[Matthew]

Hi Mathew
Hi Miqi


I'm just trying to develop finer motor control and relaxed, whole body power. When I punch slowly, my punch movement has the same structure and movement as when I hit the bag - because there is a functional progression from one to the other in the theory of what I do. I assume this is the same for what you're explaining.
Sounds the same from my experience.

I think very important is the "relaxed" aspect you mentioned. I spent my first couple years in a harder southern style, where my shigong (teacher's teacher) was of the attitude that you "Punch until your arm is too tired to stay up/you are too tired to punch hard. Then your punches will have real power"

Basically the idea was - once you wear out the "breaks" on the car- then you won't be driving with the breaks on. Internal arts, from what I've seen, simply start at the other end of the spectrum and recognize that power comes from relaxation of the structure. That doesn't mean you have to move slow, necessarily, but that you should only move as fast as you are coordinated.


But... I don't inderstand the videos where people are touched lightly and fly off - so I wonder if there is any videos of people hitting a bag form the nei gong lines you recommend.

I think the question itself rests on the assumption that "Internal Nei Gong" power is in it's own mutually exclusive category - which I don't think it is.

Typically people who go around making supernatural claims and showing them off would be scammers.

If such supernatural powers really existed - why wouldn't they using them to heal people and do good deeds with those supernatural powers?

-----------------------------------------

I think a video here shows a fairly high accomplished level of Internal control and skill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzdy07nvD9g

I agree with Robinhood in that - one of the major focuses of having some internal practice is in learning principles of expending the least amount of physical and mental effort and being efficient in movement.

More importantly, people like Muhammad Ali, or my first external TCMA teacher - had some good internal power and efficiency in movement that took them a LOT of years to learn - and included some natural talent as well.

Nei Gong, IME, equals out that playing field by teaching anyone how to use their body more efficiently in a relaxed manner from the start - and with a more formulaic approach instead of spending years "wearing out the breaks"




I won't press you to show your level - we're all amateurs and not claiming anything out of the ordinary. But I think it helps everyone if we can see other people's level - at least, as far as we can understand what they show. I'm just interested really.

I'm quite a beginner really. If at all I have small attainment. A good amount of my post here is theory - I'll make sure and mention each time I am talking theoretically - that way you can ignore it if you feel it is not pragmatic enough.

IMO, If you want to be a great fighter and learn how to apply your internal efficiency, then just fight - and get advice from your teacher. It's really pretty simple.
------------------------------------------

My point is - Nei Gong has formulated ways to give results of efficiency, relaxation, and can set the foundation for clarity of conscious mind.

From there, depending on the path you take and how you train - perhaps some clarity of the conscious mind could lead to clarity of the subconscious habitual mind.

I could even go as far to say you'd better do good deeds and things that help other people, not hurt other people. Then you will really be cleaning your conscious mind. Through repitition of good deeds and clarity of conscious mind, we might be able to clean some dust off the subconscious mind and then we really might have a little internal benefit to speak of.

This is really just cheap talk though from me - just my perspective on how the Buddha's teachings are at the center of it. All theory really unless you practice it and test it for yourself.





I just wonder what other people do after this level

Some people naturally have abundant energy and relaxed posture and can readily apply it without practicing any sort of Nei Gong, some develop good internal efficiency/power through years of external work.

The issue is that those people won't be able to pass on the understanding of internal ability, because they only developed it through year and years of "driving with the breaks on" until their breaks wore out one day.

If the methods are developed (And they have been for 100s-1000s of years), then they can be practiced and tested and formulated - instead of a guessing game.

Perhaps they can be used for purposes beyond healing our own postural issues, maybe our own emotional issues and habitual selfish behaviors - being a beginner- I can't say for sure if it works though.

My teacher says such practices can even teach us enough to help and heal others - but this is just theory and I haven't attained any such levels personally - so take it as it is.



Yes I'm sure that this is true. I just wonder what other people do after this level - i.e. this is a given common set of exercises, but where do other people take it?

Personally - I like to take it to work with me, so if I sit for hours I can practice to assist in loosening up cramping around my pelvis and spinal fascia. I practice natural breathing, natural observed Dan Tian breathing, and "Active" Dan Tian breathing.




What is a good application video from your perspective? (Let's face it - this is all we have over the net!)

If you want to watch fighting, Muhammad Ali gives a good level of efficiency in bodily movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzdy07nvD9g

IMO, a good application video could be anything. If your skill is high, the application video could be of you raking your garden, or doing dishes - could be of you painting your deck or sanding your floor.

A mind without discursive thinking in all of these things will contribute to that conscious clarity that can wash the unconscious bit by bit - but this is really just more of cheap theory I am interpreting from Buddhism admittedly.




That's fine, of course - no one who claims little owes anyone a demo - but any chance of illustrating the concepts with videos of the next, more fight oriented levels that proceed from this?

Here are some monks sparring around with a young guy who likes to spar. I doubt they get a lot of exposure to sparring around with other stylists, or other fighters, as their focus is on the Buddhas teachings, and not necessarily on sparring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prJ21dP7OWI&feature=youtu.be&t=39m7s

As to from me - I wouldn't make such videos as my skill is quite low and my focus isn't fighting. If you wanted to be a great fighter though - why not just tell your teacher you want to focus on it. Then learn from him - and if you want to hang out with other stylists, you can test out there to, and elsewhere?

If my own beliefs aren't clear - it is that internal is a component of training, an important component. In fighting, it is needed to ensure there is little to no recovery time from mis-step, or unexpected stepping of the other person. It is further needed to ensure the mind is clear on the conscious level, and if it has been sweeped clean enough, perhaps somewhat on the subconscious reactive level as well. It doesn't give you fighting ability - that has to be trained through fighting whatever way you want.

It gives you fertile soil to plant seeds - if you want a fighting plant, plant some fighting seeds there. It takes away some of the guessing in power generation and mental reactions to 'attackers' and helps us understand our self.

It isn't that you all the sudden obtain "Internal Power" and can defeat everyone - that is just the false image so many people are painting from both imaginary sides of the argument. It is in stages and levels, if you train a little more, you'll get a little more result.

[Miqi]

Hi Miqi


Sounds the same from my experience.

I think very important is the "relaxed" aspect you mentioned. I spent my first couple years in a harder southern style, where my shigong (teacher's teacher) was of the attitude that you "Punch until your arm is too tired to stay up/you are too tired to punch hard. Then your punches will have real power"



I didn't train like this, although my coach did.



Basically the idea was - once you wear out the "breaks" on the car- then you won't be driving with the breaks on. Internal arts, from what I've seen, simply start at the other end of the spectrum and recognize that power comes from relaxation of the structure. That doesn't mean you have to move slow, necessarily, but that you should only move as fast as you are coordinated.


This might be something that I understand pphysically, but not when put specifically like this.



I think the question itself rests on the assumption that "Internal Nei Gong" power is in it's own mutually exclusive category - which I don't think it is.


Agreed.



Typically people who go around making supernatural claims and showing them off would be scammers.

If such supernatural powers really existed - why wouldn't they using them to heal people and do good deeds with those supernatural powers?


Well, I'm not qualified to recognise their merits - I just see it as people who use the same terms but do something completely different.





-----------------------------------------

I think a video here shows a fairly high accomplished level of Internal control and skill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzdy07nvD9g




Can you give an example of someone who practices Chinese nei gong training and methods? Otherwise there is a danger that people will show thai boxers, mma fighters and so on and say look this is evidence that Chinese wushu is great.





I agree with Robinhood in that - one of the major focuses of having some internal practice is in learning principles of expending the least amount of physical and mental effort and being efficient in movement.

More importantly, people like Muhammad Ali, or my first external TCMA teacher - had some good internal power and efficiency in movement that took them a LOT of years to learn - and included some natural talent as well.

Nei Gong, IME, equals out that playing field by teaching anyone how to use their body more efficiently in a relaxed manner from the start - and with a more formulaic approach instead of spending years "wearing out the breaks"


I think bringing in Ali in this way is useful in terms of explaining body method, but on the other hand, unhelpfully muddying the waters in that there is an unfortunate chance that some people might be 'thrown in' with him, as if to say they are like him. Which would be an eyebrow raiser to say the least.




I'm quite a beginner really. If at all I have small attainment. A good amount of my post here is theory - I'll make sure and mention each time I am talking theoretically - that way you can ignore it if you feel it is not pragmatic enough.


I feel that video illustration is a very useful way of establishing what we're talking about. I don't mean to press anyone into showing anything.



IMO, If you want to be a great fighter and learn how to apply your internal efficiency, then just fight - and get advice from your teacher. It's really pretty simple.


This is good advice.




------------------------------------------

My point is - Nei Gong has formulated ways to give results of efficiency, relaxation, and can set the foundation for clarity of conscious mind.

From there, depending on the path you take and how you train - perhaps some clarity of the conscious mind could lead to clarity of the subconscious habitual mind.

I could even go as far to say you'd better do good deeds and things that help other people, not hurt other people. Then you will really be cleaning your conscious mind. Through repitition of good deeds and clarity of conscious mind, we might be able to clean some dust off the subconscious mind and then we really might have a little internal benefit to speak of.

This is really just cheap talk though from me - just my perspective on how the Buddha's teachings are at the center of it. All theory really unless you practice it and test it for yourself.


I'm sure this is true. I was just interested when you said that nei gong is useful for combat. Do you mean that nei gong's real use isn't practical in terms of fight skills, but mentalm in terms of clarity of mind - a kind of meditation aspect to be attached to other, actually fight based, training methods such as western boxing?





If you want to watch fighting, Muhammad Ali gives a good level of efficiency in bodily movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzdy07nvD9g

IMO, a good application video could be anything. If your skill is high, the application video could be of you raking your garden, or doing dishes - could be of you painting your deck or sanding your floor.

A mind without discursive thinking in all of these things will contribute to that conscious clarity that can wash the unconscious bit by bit - but this is really just more of cheap theory I am interpreting from Buddhism admittedly.




Here are some monks sparring around with a young guy who likes to spar. I doubt they get a lot of exposure to sparring around with other stylists, or other fighters, as their focus is on the Buddhas teachings, and not necessarily on sparring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prJ21dP7OWI&feature=youtu.be&t=39m7s

As to from me - I wouldn't make such videos as my skill is quite low and my focus isn't fighting. If you wanted to be a great fighter though - why not just tell your teacher you want to focus on it. Then learn from him - and if you want to hang out with other stylists, you can test out there to, and elsewhere?

If my own beliefs aren't clear - it is that internal is a component of training, an important component. In fighting, it is needed to ensure there is little to no recovery time from mis-step, or unexpected stepping of the other person. It is further needed to ensure the mind is clear on the conscious level, and if it has been sweeped clean enough, perhaps somewhat on the subconscious reactive level as well. It doesn't give you fighting ability - that has to be trained through fighting whatever way you want.

It gives you fertile soil to plant seeds - if you want a fighting plant, plant some fighting seeds there. It takes away some of the guessing in power generation and mental reactions to 'attackers' and helps us understand our self.

It isn't that you all the sudden obtain "Internal Power" and can defeat everyone - that is just the false image so many people are painting from both imaginary sides of the argument. It is in stages and levels, if you train a little more, you'll get a little more result.

Thanks for the insights. I'm sure you are being too polite about your own level.

[Miqi]

I don't thinkl anyone claims they can hit a heavy bag harder with internal, look toward internal being more efficient and accurate, and takes less time and effort to execute techniques. It more along the lines of focused lines of force or energy , its not about wasting energy muscling inanimate objects , but interacting with alive objects.

Hi Robinhood,
Sports science shows that hitting bags is an excellent way to develop power, accuracy, speed and combat capability, and there would be literally thousands, if not tens of thousands, of videos and examples of people who use this method, who can generate power on a bag, and can use it in a fight.

Your description implies a superior training method.

[Matthew]

Well, I'm not qualified to recognise their merits - I just see it as people who use the same terms but do something completely different.

Yes I think terminology is a tough hurdle here.

That's why I started this thread - to find more english resources to give people a more defined understanding of what Nei Gong means through those who teach it.



Can you give an example of someone who practices Chinese nei gong training and methods?

The links I provided a couple posts ago show some English speaking sites from teachers that practice it as part of their training.

I'm hoping more people surface as this thread goes on that give good examples as well.


Otherwise there is a danger that people will show thai boxers, mma fighters and so on and say look this is evidence that Chinese wushu is great.

If you noticed from the beginning - I've tried to denote my posts as "IMO (In my opinion)/ IME (In my experience)" because there are so many things I am not aware of or exposed to.

So my opinion may vary - and that is why I started this thread, to get some more legitimate discussion about this in the open instead of flame wars on so many other threads on the forum.

So I started the thread in the Chinese saying's idea of "casting a stone to attract jade"

--------------------------------

Well - I think [the Chinese Wushu greatness claim] lies on the false assumption that Internal Skill/Practice (Nei Gong) is only part of Chinese Wushu.

I think Nei Gong can be developed through long practice, no matter if it is skiing, farming, physical labor, boxing, thai boxing, or anything.

I think where the Chinese Wushu claim comes in - is that many Chinese schools of healing, martial arts, and even Buddhist and Daoist schools (and even to some minor extent some practice methods may even be common knowledge of chinese people "Chuan Tong Kan Fa" Traditional observances that average Chinese know)

...have Nei Gong down to a very systematized, readily articulated, and organized practice moreso than boxers, thai boxers, physical laborers, skiiers, etc....

who instead depend on repetition of practice (even if it there is significant tension in their body "breaks on the car") to develop efficiency of body, relaxation and 'proper' posture, and clarity of mind.

I think that is the claim - that Chinese tradition has been developing and honing these internal practices as part of culture - so they are readily picked up and integrated as an expedient method to learning efficiency of body movement, relaxation and 'proper' posture, and clarity of mind.

I don't know of claims that Chinese wushu makes superior street fighters than these other arts do (beyond movies maybe) - but IMO, it does make it great in the Ability to teach those bodily efficiency methods in a more expedient manner.

IMO, even if you had a long time Chinese art practitioner beating everyone up in MMA, it wouldn't have to do with being a Chinese art practitioner, but that individuals natural ability combined with his motivation to do that.




I think bringing in Ali in this way is useful in terms of explaining body method, but on the other hand, unhelpfully muddying the waters in that there is an unfortunate chance that some people might be 'thrown in' with him, as if to say they are like him. Which would be an eyebrow raiser to say the least.

Muddy waters for sure - I made this thread to get everyones feet in those waters - instead of beating around the bush with argument after argument about this stuff.

Again with my idea of "casting a stone to attract the jade"

Well - I don't think Nei Gong is exclusive to Chinese Wushu, although, as I stated, I think it's methods are quite understood, systematized, and practiced in some Chinese schools.

So I think it is again the case that if someone said "I have Nei Gong just like Muhammad Ali" then I don't know if they are claiming to have the bodily efficiency and power generation Muhammad Ali had - or the fighting prowess in the boxing ring.

If they said, "I practice nei gong to develop bodily efficiency in movement. I think it is an expedient device to moving more efficiently." Then I can understand their logic.


I was just interested when you said that nei gong is useful for combat. Do you mean that nei gong's real use isn't practical in terms of fight skills, but mentalm in terms of clarity of mind - a kind of meditation aspect to be attached to other, actually fight based, training methods such as western boxing?

I think it is more than a simple meditation aspect ( although, IMO, is important)

It could include assisting in maintaining balance and posture, which is crucial to recovery from misstep, and in general in positioning/movement in fighting.

It could also include helping with efficiency of movement, which is vital in not tiring yourself out in a match with excessive movement.

I think these things, depending on your definition of "practical fighting skills" can be considered direct benefits. At the least, one would have to admit they are indirectly beneficial.

---------------------------------------------

I think the greater benefit comes from being able to use those postural, breathing, mental, etc. methods in daily life. Standing in a waiting line, doing the laundry, hoeing your garden, etc where you can still follow the guidelines of your Lian Fa (practice methods) to continue to build efficiency of movement even when not practicing directly for fighting.

I think it also depends on how we are defining Nei Gong and how it is trained within our lineage. Some lineages I've seen only use it to define the basic health exercises, while some use it to discuss the internal workings of everything you do.



---------------------------------------------

I'm happy this discussion is out in the open and is seeming to have a lot of views and interest.

I'm surprised more long-term practitioners who know some Chinese language, or have had some experience with such terminologies haven't tried to "tread these muddy waters" earlier on despite seeing how much of this forum devolves into petty arguments about what Internal means.

[Miqi]

Well - I think [the Chinese Wushu greatness claim] lies on the false assumption that Internal Skill/Practice (Nei Gong) is only part of Chinese Wushu.


This is true. But lack of demonstration of applied skill cannot eternally be deferred on the grounds that applied skill is only ‘one part’ of wushu.



I think Nei Gong can be developed through long practice, no matter if it is skiing, farming, physical labor, boxing, thai boxing, or anything.

I think where the Chinese Wushu claim comes in - is that many Chinese schools of healing, martial arts, and even Buddhist and Daoist schools (and even to some minor extent some practice methods may even be common knowledge of chinese people "Chuan Tong Kan Fa" Traditional observances that average Chinese know)

...have Nei Gong down to a very systematized, readily articulated, and organized practice moreso than boxers, thai boxers, physical laborers, skiiers, etc....

who instead depend on repetition of practice (even if it there is significant tension in their body "breaks on the car") to develop efficiency of body, relaxation and 'proper' posture, and clarity of mind.

I think that is the claim - that Chinese tradition has been developing and honing these internal practices as part of culture - so they are readily picked up and integrated as an expedient method to learning efficiency of body movement, relaxation and 'proper' posture, and clarity of mind.

I don't know of claims that Chinese wushu makes superior street fighters than these other arts do (beyond movies maybe) - but IMO, it does make it great in the Ability to teach those bodily efficiency methods in a more expedient manner.


This seems very close to saying that the effectiveness of nei gong is proved by the level of everyone who does anything well – except those who do wushu. Which is a bit of a pickle.



IMO, even if you had a long time Chinese art practitioner beating everyone up in MMA, it wouldn't have to do with being a Chinese art practitioner, but that individuals natural ability combined with his motivation to do that.


Yes, there’s a lot of truth in that. However, the truth of a coaching method in this sense is not in its specific exceptions, but in its generalised applicability. The muay thai, san da and MMA coaching methods can churn out competent fighters, one after the other, on an industrial scale. Whereas, we cannot even get a video of one well-known internal master punching a bag full contact. That also is a bit of an unfortunate pickle.



Muddy waters for sure - I made this thread to get everyones feet in those waters - instead of beating around the bush with argument after argument about this stuff.

Still, I don’t think we should be saying that such and such a Chinese master’s system is shown to be effective because of the way Ali fought.



Again with my idea of "casting a stone to attract the jade"

Well - I don't think Nei Gong is exclusive to Chinese Wushu, although, as I stated, I think it's methods are quite understood, systematized, and practiced in some Chinese schools.

So I think it is again the case that if someone said "I have Nei Gong just like Muhammad Ali" then I don't know if they are claiming to have the bodily efficiency and power generation Muhammad Ali had - or the fighting prowess in the boxing ring.

If they said, "I practice nei gong to develop bodily efficiency in movement. I think it is an expedient device to moving more efficiently." Then I can understand their logic.


Again, this makes me uncomfortable. It’s like claiming that western boxing proves nei gong and then saying that even so, the Chinese do it best. That just doesn’t add up.



I think it is more than a simple meditation aspect ( although, IMO, is important)

It could include assisting in maintaining balance and posture, which is crucial to recovery from misstep, and in general in positioning/movement in fighting.

It could also include helping with efficiency of movement, which is vital in not tiring yourself out in a match with excessive movement.

I think these things, depending on your definition of "practical fighting skills" can be considered direct benefits. At the least, one would have to admit they are indirectly beneficial.


Well, if nei gong is merely this, then I understand it implicitly after all. In fact, I’m quite good at it. But I would say, this should only be a small part of your training.




---------------------------------------------

I think the greater benefit comes from being able to use those postural, breathing, mental, etc. methods in daily life. Standing in a waiting line, doing the laundry, hoeing your garden, etc where you can still follow the guidelines of your Lian Fa (practice methods) to continue to build efficiency of movement even when not practicing directly for fighting.

I think it also depends on how we are defining Nei Gong and how it is trained within our lineage. Some lineages I've seen only use it to define the basic health exercises, while some use it to discuss the internal workings of everything you do.


I don’t think you’re wrong – but it rings an alarm bell for me, from a sports science perspective, when non-fight application seems to be more emphasised the more the subject turns to fight application.

However, if all we’re saying is that nei gong improves some basic structural skills and balance, then there’s no problem with that. I think it makes me hit harder, by increasing fine motor control, relaxation and postural alignment. But I can hit a bag – so anyone who can’t doesn’t do what I do.



I'm happy this discussion is out in the open and is seeming to have a lot of views and interest.

I'm surprised more long-term practitioners who know some Chinese language, or have had some experience with such terminologies haven't tried to "tread these muddy waters" earlier on despite seeing how much of this forum devolves into petty arguments about what Internal means.

I don’t believe that the argument is petty by any means.

[xinyidizi]

Now at least I understand why some good teachers never mention these terms and theories to their students at the beginning and instead focus on practical training until after the students have developed some dantian and Qi sensitivity on their own. There is no way one can understand what neigong means before one has already experienced it. If someone can't sense the Qi flow then you have to explain it to him in terms that he understands like posture, breathing, relaxation, body alignment, ... These things are not the definition of neigong on their own though they are all related to each other.

I believe good Qi flow is at the core of Neigong and it can automatically result in proper posture, breathing, relaxation, body alignment, health, ... Most animals are born with that but due to being away from the natural environment for thousands of years, society, pollution,... our bodies are in most cases not 通(open?) enough and in order to restore the flow we need to manually improve it indirectly from the other way around(posture, breathing, relaxation, body alignment,...), and probably even directly after building up enough dantian power and body awareness. After it has been restored we can move properly like most other animals and use all of our power efficiently.

[Miqi]

Now at least I understand why some good teachers never mention these terms and theories to their students at the beginning and instead focus on practical training until after the students have developed some dantian and Qi sensitivity on their own. There is no way one can understand what neigong means before one has already experienced it. If someone can't sense the Qi flow then you have to explain it to him in terms that he understands like posture, breathing, relaxation, body alignment, ... These things are not the definition of neigong on their own though they are all related to each other.

It may be that there is no way to understand it without feeling it, but if I see you hit a bag, I understand your level of power generation immediately, no matter how you developed it.

In my view, theory and praxis should be one - not one a hiding place for the other.

[xinyidizi]

In Chen village there are quite a few impressive taiji teachers and you can experience their skills firsthand. This one is from Chenbing: http://www.56.com/u61/v_Mzg4NjIzODY.html

And I don't think there is a need for heavy bag to see this guy's power generation:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTM3MDk3Mg==.html

The first step is to prepare the body for combat and the second step is to learn using that in combat. Today's TCMA suffers a lot from the lack of experience in the second step but it is very powerful in the first step and Neigong is an important part of it.

[Miqi]

In Chen village there are quite a few impressive taiji teachers and you can experience their skills firsthand. This one is from Chenbing: http://www.56.com/u61/v_Mzg4NjIzODY.html

And I don't think there is a need for heavy bag to see this guy's power generation:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTM3MDk3Mg==.html

The first step is to prepare the body for combat and the second step is to learn using that in combat. Today's TCMA suffers a lot from the lack of experience in the second step but it is very powerful in the first step and Neigong is an important part of it.

The Chen family taiji, at elite level, is, in my view, authentic wushu which, in my view, has very little common ground with much of the other stuff that is described as 'internal' that I see.

[Miqi]

The first step is to prepare the body for combat and the second step is to learn using that in combat. Today's TCMA suffers a lot from the lack of experience in the second step but it is very powerful in the first step and Neigong is an important part of it.

With respect, I would argue that the first step is precisely only as powerful as the second step makes it.

[xinyidizi]

With respect, I would argue that the first step is precisely only as powerful as the second step makes it.

Not really. You can buy the fastest car in the world but you won't win a race unless you gain experience in driving the car. You can also practice IP and learn breaking all kinds of things but it doesn't mean that you can win in combat.

[Miqi]

Not really. You can buy the fastest car in the world but you won't win a race unless you gain experience in driving the car. You can also practice IP and learn breaking all kinds of things but it doesn't mean that you can win in combat.

With respect, this analogy implies that nei gong training is equivalent to having a very fast racing car, which could, if necessary, be entered in the race. But that is precisely the claim that is being disputed. Without actually driving the thing fast, you actually have no idea what kind of car it is.

[xinyidizi]

With respect, this analogy implies that nei gong training is equivalent to having a very fast racing car, which could, if necessary, be entered in the race. But that is precisely the claim that is being disputed. Without actually driving the thing fast, you actually have no idea what kind of car it is.

Sure you can drive it on your own and see how fast it is but it's different from racing against others.
OK, let's go back to Neigong. Regarding power generation, Neigong (exercises designed for improving the Qi flow) is not an abstract word for me and I believe it can be tested. I personally have noticed that the periods of time that I train it more I have more power in training forms, on a heavy bag or with my training partners.

[David Jamieson]

The more you stay in your head, the less value you will have in your martial art. :)

[pazman]

And I don't think there is a need for heavy bag to see this guy's power generation:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTM3MDk3Mg==.html


Sorry, a taolu performance does not indicate power generation. He seems to move well for a "big" guy, though.

One of most grave flaws in CMA rests on an assumption that China has a deep and mature culture of 5000 years and thus, "there's no need to show" or prove it.

[YouKnowWho]

And I don't think there is a need for heavy bag to see this guy's power generation:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTM3MDk3Mg==.html

To punch into the thin air is complete different from to punch on a solid object. Your body structure has to take the counter force that comes back from the bag.

If we look at CXW's clip, it take him about 1 second to generate power for each punch. In combat, do you have 1 second to do so? I think not.

http://www.myspace.com/video/chris/cxw-fajin-techniques/330713

If we look at Brendan Lai's clip. He was moving in more realistic combat speed. As far as I know, Brendan didn't like to use the word neigon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOvO5L6VjSc

Onething that I don't understand is why those people who train neigon all move so "slow"?

[Lucas]

I started training xingyi about a month ago. so far we dont do 'slow' moving. we do hold our postures sometimes for 9 breath count.

[Miqi]

Sure you can drive it on your own and see how fast it is but it's different from racing against others.
OK, let's go back to Neigong. Regarding power generation, Neigong (exercises designed for improving the Qi flow) is not an abstract word for me and I believe it can be tested. I personally have noticed that the periods of time that I train it more I have more power in training forms, on a heavy bag or with my training partners.

I'm with you there, Xinyidizi. It is anecdotal, but I also feel a noticeable drop in power and also general health and well being if I don't practice zhan zhuang for a few weeks. That is a mystery I can't explain.

My only beef, really, is people who over-emphasise one aspect of a total training programme, when martial arts should have a rounded and integrated training programme. In my view the power of nei gong to give you any kind of martially related skill is directly related to the wider martial training you do. It is not a stages process as you suggest, but an integrated process. Of course, I could be wrong.

[YouKnowWho]

I started training xingyi about a month ago. so far we dont do 'slow' moving. we do hold our postures sometimes for 9 breath count.

In longfist system, when the teacher is checking everybody one by one, I had to hold in that posture until the teacher gave next comment. Everytime I could see my sweat was dropping around my body and it made a cricle on the dirt ground.

The Kung Li system uses the Kung Li Ja to train in a group. You have to hold as long as you can until one of your group members can't hold any longer and move, everybody will move with him.

Many TCMA systems train ZZ this way. They just don't talk much about it.

[Lucas]

I had a similar experience with my longfist training. our teacher would go around and make corrections, then have us go into the next posture when enough people were starting to fail.

[xinyidizi]

To punch into the thin air is complete different from to punch on a solid object. Your body structure has to take the counter force that comes back from the bag.

If we look at CXW's clip, it take him about 1 second to generate power for each punch. In combat, do you have 1 second to do so? I think not.

http://www.myspace.com/video/chris/cxw-fajin-techniques/330713

If we look at Brendan Lai's clip. He was moving in more realistic combat speed. As far as I know, Brendan didn't like to use the word neigon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOvO5L6VjSc

Onething that I don't understand is why those people who train neigon all move so "slow"?

Fajin training is not fighting. You first learn to activate 100% of your power by punching into thin air and after that you can learn to use a smaller portion of it in fighting by doing it in smaller frames which helps you to do it faster in fighting. After you learn proper fajin and cunjin or doujin you can try it on objects like a heavy bag, a tree or your partner. With cunjin or doujin you can minimize the time that you touch the object and not end up pushing the heavybag like many sanda students at the gym we train do. Pushing people is not the objective of fajin, hurting them where the are standing is. The object might not move as much but it will hurt more.

[Matthew]

But lack of demonstration of applied skill cannot eternally be deferred on the grounds that applied skill is only ‘one part’ of wushu.

I agree - if you want to learn to apply it to something effectively, then you have to practice applying it to that.

I think the issue here is defining "applied skill". If it means learning how to apply my bodily mass with great efficiency of movement and maximization of force generation and then delivery (as in why I showed the clip of muhammad ali) - then you could readily see that "applied skill" using an axe while splitting wood, or while hoeing the ground.



This seems very close to saying that the effectiveness of nei gong is proved by the level of everyone who does anything well

The proof could be in how efficient they are, how much energy expended in their movements, and possibly in how much force they can generate, and deliver. This doesn't prove combative ability, and I haven't made claims that it does.

I'm arguing that Chinese arts have an organized system that provides expedience in developing Nei Gong.




The muay thai, san da and MMA coaching methods can churn out competent fighters, one after the other, on an industrial scale.

Competent ring fighters - yes.

If your goal is ring fighting - then you need to spend effort on tailoring your training toward those limitations.

This is a qualm you might have with TCMA in general, but most people I know practicing TCMA aren't doing it with interest to fight or win in rings - whereas most I know doing MMA, muay thai, etc have that as their primary motivation.


Whereas, [despite industrial ability of other arts to churn out fighters] we cannot even get a video of one well-known internal master punching a bag full contact. That also is a bit of an unfortunate pickle.

I really don't understand what you expect a video of someone hitting a bag to do for you.

Anyway - William CC Chen is seen hitting a bag for a couple seconds at the beginning and later in this clip : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4tMo8gE2Yk

He mentions teaching Nei Gong, and visually looks quite efficient in movements despite being very old (maybe 80s?).

He also mentions in an interview that he never spent time in his life focusing on the health aspects of the art - and I believe I read that he churned out a couple decent ring fighters.

------------------------------------------------------------

I think more relevant to testing would be videos of research that can show body coordination and plug into muscle groups to compare efficiency. But who would even fund such research is the biggest question, issue, and challenge I see. Not much money on the table for "alternative" therapies/healing modalities, and even less that I'm aware of for longer term mutli-faceted studies it would demand.

Example 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN88QIsMHqA If this had more funding behind it - you could add in more variables, account for activated muscle tissues, test for muscle efficiency/o2 expenditure, and other things.

In the end though, All that probably wouldn't prove any single Nei Gong developing practice is better than another - due to intrinsic uncontrollable variables from person to person.

What research might be able to show is that certain nei gong practices (controlled) consistently (if you had large enough samples of people doing consistent interval tests bi-monthly while practicing those nei-gong developing methods) could achieve results in bodily power generation, possibly in power delivery (with sensors on a bag) in relation to bodily efficiency.


Example 2) Less scientific, but an example for you because you wanted people punching bags.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVkjj8568d8&feature=youtu.be&t=17m12s




It’s like claiming that western boxing proves nei gong and then saying that even so, the Chinese do it best. That just doesn’t add up.

I didn't claim western boxing proves anything.

I mentioned that Muhammad Ali looked to have fair amount of physical efficiency in movement and balance that could be attributed to some level of internal ability.

And I didn't say Chinese do anything best - I said they have organized methods to develop Nei Gong.

That would mean that these practices to develop Nei Gong could be taught Without learning any fighting (ex. Boxing in a Ring) and thus can have greater application to the myriad of things we do in our daily lives.




it rings an alarm bell for me, from a sports science perspective, when non-fight application seems to be more emphasised the more the subject turns to fight application.

My primary goal in practice is health benefit, so that's what I emphasize. If I had more free time, I would spend it doing volunteer work, finishing home renovations, traveling, or other things I don't get time to do- then if that were all done, I would spend extra time to train combative application and practice.



However, if all we’re saying is that nei gong improves some basic structural skills and balance, then there’s no problem with that.

Well - IMO there are tangible and less tangible benefits of it.

I don't claim to know the ultimate definition of Nei Gong, and certainly different schools/teachers definitions have variation.



My only beef, really, is people who over-emphasise one aspect of a total training programme, when martial arts should have a rounded and integrated training programme. In

We can't control people's practices and beliefs, and any emphasis they place on their daily activities.

America is in a health epidemic - not everyone wants to learn how to apply efficiency of movement to fighting people.

I can understand why you say you are frustrated though - but if you relieve the "TCMA" of having any ego or self - then who cares what others think of "TCMA" as a vague generalized whole? If you can spar, defend yourself, or fight in a ring - then be the example you wish to see/others to see.

[YouKnowWho]

most people I know practicing TCMA aren't doing it with interest to fight or win in rings ... My primary goal in practice is health benefit, so that's what I emphasize.

Thanks for being honest. Now I know exactly where you come from. For a while I had a feeling as a chicken was trying to talk to a duck.

If one trains

- combat and he says that he trains health, he is humble.
- health and he says that he trains combat, he is bragging.

We have just seen too many of this stuffs. It's hard to be serious about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UdFvoXI6VU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CHFp9THyBc

[Miqi]

I agree - if you want to learn to apply it to something effectively, then you have to practice applying it to that.

I think the issue here is defining "applied skill". If it means learning how to apply my bodily mass with great efficiency of movement and maximization of force generation and then delivery (as in why I showed the clip of muhammad ali) - then you could readily see that "applied skill" using an axe while splitting wood, or while hoeing the ground.


Hi Mathew,
That people become good at things doesn’t in any way support Chinese nei gong training. It may be that efficient movement is, theoretically, what Chinese nei gongs sets and practices claim they will achieve – but it is a logical fallacy to claim that anything that is done efficiently is therefore a proof of the effectiveness of Chinese nei gong sets.



The proof could be in how efficient they are, how much energy expended in their movements, and possibly in how much force they can generate, and deliver. This doesn't prove combative ability, and I haven't made claims that it does.

I'm arguing that Chinese arts have an organized system that provides expedience in developing Nei Gong.


To be clear, what you are saying is that the proof of nei gong training is in its development of more efficient power generation. If you say that the evidence is anyone who has more efficient power generation, that’s a logical fallacy – Ali didn’t use Chinese nei gong; his power generation comes from a completely different training programme. We should avoid ‘result theft’ and show Chinese practioners with superior power generation methods. And we should avoid disparaging people who ask for evidence of this very bold claim.

I don’t disagree, by the way, that there is a peculiar ‘nei gong’ if you like developed way of punching. I just don’t believe that anyone really understands it without being able to do it to some degree, and that applies to me as well. And I would also suggest, respectfully, that if you talk about it, you must know it, and you should avoid shifting discussion to health and wood chopping when the issue is raised – otherwise, we’ll talk in circles for ever.



Competent ring fighters - yes.

If your goal is ring fighting - then you need to spend effort on tailoring your training toward those limitations.

This is a qualm you might have with TCMA in general, but most people I know practicing TCMA aren't doing it with interest to fight or win in rings - whereas most I know doing MMA, muay thai, etc have that as their primary motivation.


I think we should be very, very careful of using the fact that some arts produce competent fighters as some kind of ‘evidence’ of their inferiority to other ‘traditional’ arts. That seems to be a logical fallacy to me – one we usually hear from JKD practioners. While it is a given that TCMA is geared to more than just fighting, and also that ring fighting is a different ‘problematic’ to other fight scenarios, the merits of any TCMA coaching method in terms of fighting abilities are not raised by other schools’ focussing on ring fighting.

Nor is quite correct to avoid questions of application by appeal to the merits of non-combat related supplementary benefits. In my view. I also feel embarrassed to make these points – I feel like I’m being rude.



I really don't understand what you expect a video of someone hitting a bag to do for you.


I feel a bit embarrassed then, like I’ve asked a really stupid question – which I may have. My training is quite basic compared to what you’re talking about, so I think in basic terms, like, can you hit a bag.

What I expect depends on the context. Starting with me, I expect to able to demonstrate – to an amateur, middle aged level and appropriate to any claims that I may have made about my level or abilities (which aren’t big claims) – that I can punch a bag with at least some power, that I can show a particular shen fa peculiar to yiquan, that I can demonstrate its difference to western boxing and other kinds of punching. I also use a lot of western boxing training, and punching methods – just depends what I’m doing. The faster, the more boxing like. However, I can and do demonstrate relaxed, whole body power as per yiquan, and as per my level, before talking about abstract theory. I don’t claim to be a master, I don’t have any students and I don’t need money from martial arts. And I don’t really show anything beyond that – there again, I’ve not claimed to able to do anything beyond that. I just show what I’m talking about for critique and mutual discussion. I also expect not to censor criticism. And I hope that I might set an example to people who do make a lot of money and have a lot of students and do claim high levels of understanding and by definition, ability – because the reality is, if you claim to understand it, then you’re claiming to be able to do it, despite modesty.

I expect anyone who claims to know, to be able to do, and so to be able to show. Unless they’ve become disabled. I would expect to lose face if I didn’t demonstrate in the same arena anything that I claimed in that arena. This is the TCMA way as I understand it.

For those who talk about superior efficiency from nei gong, I expect a video that shows it. And not some nonsense with a compliant student. For those who have light touch fly away power, I expect you to show it on an inanimate object. For those who talk obnoxiously about superficial ‘external’ muscling of mere inanimate objects and mere external ability, to show better, or be quiet. For those who claim to be powerful, skilled and knowledgeable in public in a way that insults others (that isn’t you Mathew) but then won’t show themselves, I don’t expect them to sit in silence and ponder the old rules of the CMA world – but I wish they would.

And most of all, I’d like the really famous masters to put up convincing videos – and let us amateurs free from putting ourselves forwards as the only examples.

[Miqi]

What research might be able to show is that certain nei gong practices (controlled) consistently (if you had large enough samples of people doing consistent interval tests bi-monthly while practicing those nei-gong developing methods) could achieve results in bodily power generation, possibly in power delivery (with sensors on a bag) in relation to bodily efficiency.


No. We should separate this kind of thing from combat training, and stop using it a shield to deflect attention from combat training. It’s valid, interesting stuff – but it’s not an excuse.





I didn't claim western boxing proves anything.

I mentioned that Muhammad Ali looked to have fair amount of physical efficiency in movement and balance that could be to some level of internal ability.


Personally, I would be wary of borrowing Ali’s skill to prove the efficiency of a method he never used. If anything, it proves his trainer’s method is better than yours.



And I didn't say Chinese do anything best - I said they have organized methods to develop Nei Gong.

That would mean that these practices to develop Nei Gong could be taught Without learning any fighting (ex. Boxing in a Ring) and thus can have greater application to the myriad of things we do in our daily lives.


I like to think that somewhere there’s a lumberjack forum where the following conversation is taking place:
A. “How does nei gong apply to woodcutting? Do you have a video showing your method and results?”
B. “Nei gong is for more than just woodcutting – it could be useful for other things, such as fighting as well.”
A. “Yes, but how is your woodcutting any different to anyone else’s?”
B. “Nei gong is about doing things efficiently. Jimmy Smith, the world champion lumberjack is a great example of nei gong.”
A. “But Jimmy Smith doesn’t do nei gong.”
C. “Anyone who uses any actual force when cutting a tree is merely muscling the tree using external force. Here is a video of someone just touching a tree with his axe lightly, and it falls over. That’s the real internal nei gong woodcutting.”
D. “I think I’ll just buy a chainsaw.”



My primary goal in practice is health benefit, so that's what I emphasize. If I had more free time, I would spend it doing volunteer work, finishing home renovations, traveling, or other things I don't get time to do- then if that were all done, I would spend extra time to train combative application and practice.


Xinyidizi’s ‘stages’ argument is wrong, partly just because it is, and partly because it allows people to say that even though they have no practical ability, nevertheless they are still owners of the high powered race car. In reality, you theoretical understanding and practical training are closely tied together in and mutually informing system in my view. Which means if you practice health benefits, then I take you at your word – and your understanding of anything else is limited by that.





Well - IMO there are tangible and less tangible benefits of it.

I don't claim to know the ultimate definition of Nei Gong, and certainly different schools/teachers definitions have variation.

We can't control people's practices and beliefs, and any emphasis they place on their daily activities.

America is in a health epidemic - not everyone wants to learn how to apply efficiency of movement to fighting people.

I can understand why you say you are frustrated though - but if you relieve the "TCMA" of having any ego or self - then who cares what others think of "TCMA" as a vague generalized whole? If you can spar, defend yourself, or fight in a ring - then be the example you wish to see/others to see.

In my experience, the concept of attacking people for having ‘an ego’ is just a way of defending oneself, or one’s beliefs from criticism. Perhaps a wiser approach is to recognise that we all have egos. And then the real teaching of the Buddha, which you mentioned, might, somehow let us have a bit of compassion for those who needed to pretend to have skills and abilities that they didn’t really have. I don't really mean you by that Mathew - you've tried to explain a fairly basic distinction in terms and application, and I thank you for that. Good luck with your training and health improvement.

[Matthew]

No. We should separate this kind of thing from combat training, and stop using it a shield to deflect attention from combat training. It’s valid, interesting stuff – but it’s not an excuse.

Miqi - I don't believe Internal training is independent in the scope of TCMA - but it can be developed independently and is especially useful for those with physical ailments.

I'm not sure if I'm being perceived as "shielding to deflect attention from combat training" - because the purpose of this thread is aimed at helping 1) define, 2) discuss and 3) discover if and how internal development practices in TCMA are quite expedient at developing bodily efficiency.

I see you aren't inclined to isolate Nei Gong development and fighting - which is fine, but you are posting in a thread that is isolating it purposely (for right or wrong) - in order identify what it is people mean when they use the term internal.



Personally, I would be wary of borrowing Ali’s skill to prove the efficiency of a method he never used. If anything, it proves his trainer’s method is better than yours.

This is really my own fault - I should have been using the term more like "practices to develop Nei Gong" for clarity since the beginning.

There is misunderstanding in why I posted a clip of Ali. Nei Gong was being used as a descriptor of someone's skill in bodily efficiency.

Nei Gong (internal skill) in its most general application sense, was defined (by me) as the ability to generate and deliver power. Muhammad exhibited that. It is defined as that, not "proven" by that.

His teacher may very well have had some understanding of how to develop nei gong (internal skill). I have seen videos of mexican boxers who are concerned with efficiency of motion, although it would be far fetched from saying they developed organized systems comparable to those some TCMA have.

It's still a language/terminology issue - even someone who didn't practice to develop nei gong, but knew Chinese language/culture might be able to help explain better.




C. “Anyone who uses any actual force when cutting a tree is merely muscling the tree using external force. Here is a video of someone just touching a tree with his axe lightly, and it falls over. That’s the real internal nei gong woodcutting.”

I agree - it would be silly for english people in daily conversation to mis-use a Chinese term.

Further - I don't know why you are repeatedly associating videos like that with the definition of nei-gong development/practice after being linked to other teachers hitting punching bags who are from TCMA schools.

I assume you've cut wood and realize how poor people often do at their first attempts to chop wood - they depend heavily on shoulder and back muscles with very low efficiency of movement.

You could teach someone to develop internal skill (nei gong) through chopping wood, as long as you gave them very specific feedback on how they are inefficiently using their force, bodily structure, breathing, etc.




B. “Nei gong is about doing things efficiently. Jimmy Smith, the world champion lumberjack is a great example of nei gong.”
A. “But Jimmy Smith doesn’t do nei gong.”

Nei Gong is simply a chinese terminology - don't get stuck at that point.

Just because someone did not do Chinese Nei Gong (internal development) practices, it doesn't mean they wouldn't Develop Nei Gong (internal skill), IMO it only means they aren't using an organized or systematized way to develop it (or teach it).

Just because chopping an axe is one technique TCMA - it would be erroneous to say all people must study TCMA to use an axe. Your imaginary conversational argument makes a similar error.



Xinyidizi’s ‘stages’ argument is wrong, partly just because it is, and partly because it allows people to say that even though they have no practical ability, nevertheless they are still owners of the high powered race car.

IMO, the fast race car is an inadequate analogy. It could imply "fast car will win a race" as "strong or efficient body will win a fight" which is obviously silly.

but let's expand it beyond the speed variable to really utilize that analogy.

Here is one extreme of the spectrum:

You have your "fast car", but your car's ignition timing is wrong (your 02/gas ratio is wrong), and your tire camber is off (needs alignment), timing belt has some slippage, etc.

Then the car's efficiency is low. This could be likened to many amateur MMA fighters that I'm personally friends with. They have a huge motor, and could still "beat me in a race (fight)", but it says little about their efficiency in expending energy.

THIS is where nei gong development can help them expediently develop efficiency. Sure, eventually they would develop it in fighting anyway, but they may have "blown the motor" or "damaged the transmission" by then.

This is the core of my argument - expedient teaching of internal development methods can be done- NOT that Muhammad Ali can knocking people out proves combat efficacy of internal development.

I gave some possible research methodologies in my last post for testing the "expediency" of such teachings.



In reality, you theoretical understanding and practical training are closely tied together in and mutually informing system in my view. Which means if you practice health benefits, then I take you at your word – and your understanding of anything else is limited by that. I emphasize health practice, so no, I don't emphasize combat training as my primary goal at this point in my life.

I also have only spoken on the health efficiency aspects, and shown, where applicable, how they apply to anything the body does (including combative training.)

Again - just as a fighter shouldn't only focus on internal development -

a race car driver wouldn't dismiss a car mechanics advice on tuning, motor buildout, etc.



In my experience, the concept of attacking people for having ‘an ego’ is just a way of defending oneself, or one’s beliefs from criticism. Perhaps a wiser approach is to recognise that we all have egos.
Thank you


And then the real teaching of the Buddha, which you mentioned, might, somehow let us have a bit of compassion for those who needed to pretend to have skills and abilities that they didn’t really have. I don't really mean you by that Mathew - you've tried to explain a fairly basic distinction in terms and application, and I thank you for that.

I can see that the quality ( lack thereof) in my explanation of the Chinese term has been inadequate and caused misunderstanding.

I appreciate your feedback on it, because it offers me a chance to hone my language practice/ability.

[bawang]

I can see that the quality ( lack thereof) in my explanation of the Chinese term has been inadequate and caused misunderstanding.



then stop typing.

your words flow like diarrhea.

[brucereiter]

Thanks for being honest. Now I know exactly where you come from. For a while I had a feeling as a chicken was trying to talk to a duck.

If one trains

- combat and he says that he trains health, he is humble.
- health and he says that he trains combat, he is bragging.

We have just seen too many of this stuffs. It's hard to be serious about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UdFvoXI6VU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CHFp9THyBc

This type of video and practice Makes me embarrassed and angry, I love tai chi chuan, hsing I and Bagua and have spent many years developing my skills.
I would love to meet this guy and have a exchange with him. In my opinion he is a idiot and the people who follow him are insane. I wish dale freeman would not use the names tai chi chuan, hsing I or Bagua to describe what he does. He should be ashamed! And the brain washed weak minded people who follow him just disgust me.

To me ima has nothing to do with health, how ever one of the many benefits of internal martial arts practice is increased good health. With out the martial art part of ima I do not think one can get the health benefits of ima.

Empty force as show in these type of videos is stupid.
Until I meet a human who can do that to me against my will I call bull****.

[rett]

This type of video and practice Makes me embarrassed and angry, I love tai chi chuan, hsing I and Bagua and have spent many years developing my skills.
I would love to meet this guy and have a exchange with him. In my opinion he is a idiot and the people who follow him are insane. I wish dale freeman would not use the names tai chi chuan, hsing I or Bagua to describe what he does. He should be ashamed! And the brain washed weak minded people who follow him just disgust me.

To me ima has nothing to do with health, how ever one of the many benefits of internal martial arts practice is increased good health. With out the martial art part of ima I do not think one can get the health benefits of ima.

Empty force as show in these type of videos is stupid.
Until I meet a human who can do that to me against my will I call bull****.

My first thought on seeing that video was that it must be a spoof.

Do you, or does anyone else know for sure if that's actually supposed to be real? Is that what they actually do at that school?

It's just pushing straight against pushing. My understanding of a more skilled response would be to change the angle of contact so the push loses force and the pusher's balance is compromised (even if only slightly). Or something like that.

(I won't even comment on the waving the arms and making the guy roll around part)

[brucereiter]

My first thought on seeing that video was that it must be a spoof.

Do you, or does anyone else know for sure if that's actually supposed to be real? Is that what they actually do at that school?

It's just pushing straight against pushing. My understanding of a more skilled response would be to change the angle of contact so the push loses force and the pusher's balance is compromised (even if only slightly). Or something like that.

(I won't even comment on the waving the arms and making the guy roll around part)

It is my understanding based on the videos and the website http://sifudale.com/Home_Page.html that dale freeman is delusional and thinks what he presents is real martial art.

I am going to call the number on his site and see if he will talk to me.

[Dale Dugas]

Something bad happened in 2007 with this person.

http://www.oregon.gov/omb/boardactions/boardactions_july16_07-august15_07.pdf

Bad enough they levied this against him and his licensure.

*FREEMAN, DALE OWENS, LAc; AC00213; SHERIDAN, OR
Licensee entered into a Stipulated Order with the Board on August 2, 2007. This order placed the following conditions on Licensee's Oregon acupuncture license: reprimand, quarterly Board reporting, may practice only at the Grand Ronde Health and Wellness Clinic in Grand Ronde, Oregon. All other practice locations must be pre-approved by the Board's Acupuncture Committee.

Licensee may not examine or treat any female patients. Licensee is restricted to seeing only male patients 18 years of age or older. Limitations regarding acupuncture instruction.

Must maintain a chart for each patient and document treatment provided. The terms of Licensee's March 3, 2005 Stipulated Order remain in full force and effect, except the chaperone requirement in that Order has been superseded by the terms of this Order.

Sounds like hippie qi gong boy has some nasty background with females.

RED FLAG RED FLAG

[bawang]

It is my understanding based on the videos and the website http://sifudale.com/Home_Page.html that dale freeman is delusional and thinks what he presents is real martial art.


hes just a predator. video looks like standard new age cult indoctrination, childhood regression + hypnosis

[YouKnowWho]

To me ima has nothing to do with health, how ever one of the many benefits of internal martial arts practice is increased good health. With out the martial art part of ima I do not think one can get the health benefits of ima.

Agree with you 1000% there. I started my Taiji training when I was 7 years old (that was almost 60 years ago). I also train XingYi and Baga (8 palms only). It's very funny for me to argue with "internal" guys that "internal" is more than just for health, self-cultivation, and inner peace.

[Dragonzbane76]

lol def. a red flag dale.

[Matthew]

I started my Taiji training when I was 7 years old (that was almost 60 years ago). I also train XingYi and Baga (8 palms only). It's very funny for me to argue with "internal" guys that "internal" is more than just for health, self-cultivation, and inner peace.

Hi John, Sad to see you have decided to ignore the definitions/concepts many people have laid in this thread for what Internal (Nei Gong) means and how it is intertwined with the external practices.

Further - if you are so experienced and have so many years on most people here- I hope you will serve as a good example for the future, not only in your leading discussions on martial efficacy..

but in realistically addressing people here instead of falsely categorizing your own imaginary group of people ("internal guys") who are posing imaginary arguments from a unified front of "health, self-cultivation, and inner peace".

[xinyidizi]

With out the martial art part of ima I do not think one can get the health benefits of ima.


If by the martial art part you mean the fighting part then I'm not sure how getting kicked in the nuts or getting knocked down can give us health benefits.

[Robinhood]

If by the martial art part you mean the fighting part then I'm not sure how getting kicked in the nuts or getting knocked down can give us health benefits.


It is the interaction of energy between 2 or more people which helps you develop IMA.

Without that interaction , you have no clue what your even working on, that interaction does not include ego building or who can beat each other up, that does not help you to develop yourself, that just leads to big head and no IMA development.

The goal is develop internal, other benefits like application will naturally develop , but practicing and developing is different from testing, you can test, but that is all your doing, then go back to developing .

[xinyidizi]

It is the interaction of energy between 2 or more people which helps you develop IMA.

Without that interaction , you have no clue what your even working on, that interaction does not include ego building or who can beat each other up, that does not help you to develop yourself, that just leads to big head and no IMA development.

The goal is develop internal, other benefits like application will naturally develop , but practicing and developing is different from testing, you can test, but that is all your doing, then go back to developing .

I know. IMA can offer many ways of partner training that can help self awareness, health, improving the Qi flow and at the same time help you with developing skills that can be used in fighting(actually hurting someone). Wether someone wants to go that path or not is a personal choice and health oriented people can also train some of the methods that are meant for fighting like PH but actual combat training is certainly not a good idea for health.


There is a clear border between health and combat at a certain point but before that health and combat also have many similar objectives. In ima without some neigong or as some say self cultivation there is no way one can progress in some aspects of fighting. People can choose to do external and get the fighting results they want but if someone wants to learn for example taiji fighting he has to do his homework in health and self cultivation first or he would end up in another path.

[mawali]

I have yet to figure out what "internal" really is, when referencing what people call IMA. Honestly, most people who study what is called internal can be whooped by little old ladies on their way to Sunday church. :confused:
Pardon the hyperbole but most IMA fellows lack the basic 'fighting skills' i.e. basic punching, kicking or running skills. Secondly, because they might be hurt by stuff like boxing, karate or TKD they, they imagine that what is named internal is superior to what is called 'external', not knowing they are the same coin, different side. This is my view and one view only but I do realize that there area few (the few) who are truly skillful in IMA and they regularly compete and share with other arts (external) as part of a learning continuium as opposed to a one stop ending place for their sacred art.

IMA (the totality of its raison d'etre) (the absolute art) is vastly different from the common IMA that all allegedly embrace so my first point is the common attribute that we are all aware of, and the 2nd paragraph is the IMA sky learning, that few reach but with diligence and a great teachers (we do need a new definition of what a real teacher does) we can all reach that goal of Higher Learning.

I take the Higher Learning Ladder (as I claim to understand) that if someone responds that IMA is superior to EMA, that person has no concept and is just doing forms just to do it and has no concept of utility or functionality of his art.
Just as a parrot repeats stuff, so do the forms champions who are excellent at their task and gymnastic skills.

adieu, mon fellows I bid thee good day for now!

[xinyidizi]

I have yet to figure out what "internal" really is, when referencing what people call IMA. Honestly, most people who study what is called internal can be whooped by little old ladies on their way to Sunday church. :confused:
Pardon the hyperbole but most IMA fellows lack the basic 'fighting skills' i.e. basic punching, kicking or running skills. Secondly, because they might be hurt by stuff like boxing, karate or TKD they, they imagine that what is named internal is superior to what is called 'external', not knowing they are the same coin, different side. This is my view and one view only but I do realize that there area few (the few) who are truly skillful in IMA and they regularly compete and share with other arts (external) as part of a learning continuium as opposed to a one stop ending place for their sacred art.

IMA (the totality of its raison d'etre) (the absolute art) is vastly different from the common IMA that all allegedly embrace so my first point is the common attribute that we are all aware of, and the 2nd paragraph is the IMA sky learning, that few reach but with diligence and a great teachers (we do need a new definition of what a real teacher does) we can all reach that goal of Higher Learning.

I take the Higher Learning Ladder (as I claim to understand) that if someone responds that IMA is superior to EMA, that person has no concept and is just doing forms just to do it and has no concept of utility or functionality of his art.
Just as a parrot repeats stuff, so do the forms champions who are excellent at their task and gymnastic skills.

adieu, mon fellows I bid thee good day for now!

What makes a MA superior is what a practitioner makes out of it. At the very basic level these styles are about different paths of developing certain skills. IMA styles have their own preference of the skills they want to develop and they tell you how to develop them. Whether a practitioner wants to fully develop them and use them in combat is his choice but I suggest that when we refer to the IMA we refer to the their high level practitioners and judge them not just some old hippies in a park.

[YouKnowWho]

Iif someone wants to learn for example taiji fighting ...

You have defined a "style boundary" to restrict yourself before you even start your training.

[xinyidizi]

You have defined a "style boundary" to restrict yourself before you even start your training.

It's not just about the techniques. Taiji teaches specific ways of shenfa, power generation, ... IMO that's the important feature of a style which is like the basic format of how your body moves and it takes a long time to achieve it. I don't think life is long enough to learn the essence of more than two or three distinct arts but this is different from techniques. After internalizing the basic concept, techniques can be added and modified from other arts.

Also I don't see anything wrong with having a direction or preference in the fighting style one wants to learn. Sometimes limitation is not a bad thing as it makes you work harder on a few things and gives you the opportunity to really learn using them which is better than learning bits and pieces of a thousand different things.

[Robinhood]

I have yet to figure out what "internal" really is, when referencing what people call IMA. Honestly, most people who study what is called internal can be whooped by little old ladies on their way to Sunday church. :confused:
Pardon the hyperbole but most IMA fellows lack the basic 'fighting skills' i.e. basic punching, kicking or running skills. Secondly, because they might be hurt by stuff like boxing, karate or TKD they, they imagine that what is named internal is superior to what is called 'external', not knowing they are the same coin, different side. This is my view and one view only but I do realize that there area few (the few) who are truly skillful in IMA and they regularly compete and share with other arts (external) as part of a learning continuium as opposed to a one stop ending place for their sacred art.

IMA (the totality of its raison d'etre) (the absolute art) is vastly different from the common IMA that all allegedly embrace so my first point is the common attribute that we are all aware of, and the 2nd paragraph is the IMA sky learning, that few reach but with diligence and a great teachers (we do need a new definition of what a real teacher does) we can all reach that goal of Higher Learning.

I take the Higher Learning Ladder (as I claim to understand) that if someone responds that IMA is superior to EMA, that person has no concept and is just doing forms just to do it and has no concept of utility or functionality of his art.
Just as a parrot repeats stuff, so do the forms champions who are excellent at their task and gymnastic skills.

adieu, mon fellows I bid thee good day for now!

The path that I have seen that works best, is to learn external first, then learn internal.

So you learn to hurt people first using external force, then you reach a plateau and then you're ready
to learn internal.

[Sima Rong]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Xinyi start from external training and then become more internal? Id guess xinyidizi could tell me about this, or Dr Yan if he's about.

[xinyidizi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Xinyi start from external training and then become more internal? Id guess xinyidizi could tell me about this, or Dr Yan if he's about.

What definition of "Internal"?

If you tell me your definition I may be able to answer better but in general I think even Taiji starts from external and becomes more internal gradually. Their difference with waijiaquan is that their external moves were designed to help the practitioners prepare for the internal aspects faster.

[Sima Rong]

What definition of "Internal"?

If you tell me your definition I may be able to answer better but in general I think even Taiji starts from external and becomes more internal gradually. Their difference with waijiaquan is that their external moves were designed to help the practitioners prepare for the internal aspects faster.

I think from the idea of using muscular tension and bone and muscle conditioning. That seems to be more external training to me than what I have seen in most people who train Taiji or Bagua anyway. Anyway, nothing is either one or the other I guess.

[xinyidizi]

I think from the idea of using muscular tension and bone and muscle conditioning. That seems to be more external training to me than what I have seen in most people who train Taiji or Bagua anyway. Anyway, nothing is either one or the other I guess.

I don't know much about bagua but comparing to Taichi yes it starts harder at the beginning. In the Shanghai branch usually the first few weeks or months (depending on the speed the teacher wants to teach) is spent on just practicing chicken step and dragon swinging the shoulders to build a solid foundation for all the other moves. After that the teacher gradually adds both hard moves and soft moves. It takes longer to learn and see the result of the soft moves in the training which is probably why you think Xinyi starts more external.

[YouKnowWho]

the teacher gradually adds both hard moves and soft moves.
Both hard moves and soft moves have it's usage. When

- your opponent uses haymaker to knock on your head, your soft block may let his haymaker to hit your blocking arm and still hit your head. Hard block will be better to use in this situation.

- you parry your opponent's leading arm, he borrows your force and spins into a haymaker, you then borrow his arm spinning and achieve your arm wrapping. This kind of borrow force, re-borrow force is soft move.

There is no "internal" way or "external" way but "right" way and "wrong" way. As long as you do the "right" thing at the right moment, that's all it counts.

[Robinhood]

Both hard moves and soft moves have it's usage. When

- your opponent uses haymaker to knock on your head, your soft block may let his haymaker to hit your blocking arm and still hit your head. Hard block will be better to use in this situation.

- you parry your opponent's leading arm, he borrows your force and spins into a haymaker, you then borrow his arm spinning and achieve your arm wrapping. This kind of borrow force, re-borrow force is soft move.

There is no "internal" way or "external" way but "right" way and "wrong" way. As long as you do the "right" thing at the right moment, that's all it counts.

There are many ways to do everything, but depending on what you have to work with, your options might be limited.

[Sima Rong]

I think that's what Youknowwho just said. You don't throw eggs against rocks, or thrash wildly when in quicksand.

[Robinhood]

I think that's what Youknowwho just said. You don't throw eggs against rocks, or thrash wildly when in quicksand.


I don't think that is what he meant, there are many ways to do things, if you only think there is one way, you might not know much.

[Sima Rong]

I don't think that is what he meant, there are many ways to do things, if you only think there is one way, you might not know much.

:confused:

Maybe I was too vague and misleading. Different tools gave different uses.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think that is what he meant, there are many ways to do things, if you only think there is one way, you might not know much.
If you are a computer programmer, you have to consider all cases, otherwise your program won't work.

There are more than 20 different ways to counter a "head lock". If you don't have solutions for all counters, you are not qualified to use your "head lock".

[MightyB]

IDK...

After reading that Grandmaster Wang Xiang-Zhai (1885-1963) interview...

I think the whole internal/external thing has been so misconstrued as to lose the whole meaning of TCMA.

Sounds like Internal should have been more about spontaneous reaction (move quickly, punch him in the face), and external drilled reaction (if he does this, do that).

That's all gone now. Now we have a lot of forms and Jedi wannabes.

[Robinhood]

:confused:

Maybe I was too vague and misleading. Different tools gave different uses.

Yes that makes more sense, there are many different tools, but if you only have hammer, then you try to use hammer for everything, not very efficient for many tasks.