Develop bad habits from sport

[YouKnowWho]

I had many hours discussion with a Chen Taiji teacher yesterday. He told me that one of his students was a wrestler. When that student trained Chen Taiji form, his head would move infront of his hands. The Chen Taiji teacher tried to correct him but without much luck. It seems that student's body posture was developed at much younger age.

I got on Google and find some pictures and clips. Indeed, their postures are to put their head before their hands.

http://imageshack.us/a/img43/2371/wrestling1h.jpg

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6206/wrestling2z.jpg

In the following clip, we can see that wrestling special posture at 0.15, 1.30, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVCegcfWXp8

All MA sport can develop bad habits. Should we try to avoid it to start with, or should we try to fix it later on?

Your thought?

[Golden Arms]

Fix it later on. I think the statement you made a while back covers it really well (to paraphrase):

"Spar/fight when you are younger, you may have the whole rest of your life to work on body mechanics"

I had always assumed that everyone fought a lot and at a high intensity in martial arts. The longer I practice the more I realize how false that assumption is and how fortunate I was to spend so much time fighting (I still do to this day). Often what I consider a warm up, most "martial artists" consider a fight. If you wait too long, you will be limited in how much you can fight and how often, as well as how to develop your athleticism to a high level. I find that mistake to be an unfortunate one that is made often :(.

Good habits from sport fighting:

Learning to keep your hands up (when necessary)
Learning the VITAL importance of being in shape. No matter how skilled you are, you cannot use it if you are too tired.
Learning that athleticism and strength not only matter, but are often big factors.
Learning how to continue even if you get injured.
Learning to embrace unpleasant situations and come out stronger.
Learning that most people are not trained fighters and that simple mistakes can have huge consequences.
And finally, learning that even after a lot of sport fighting, when you are in your best shape and can kick ass, an older, smaller, well trained traditional artist can still kick your ass with less effort. (This last one is what built the faith in my art(s) to a high level).

[iunojupiter]

However, bad habits are relevant to the style/situation.

If you can get them to change their habits from situation to situation, great. If not, you might have to work around it.

Cheers,
Josh

[SPJ]

All MA sport can develop bad habits. Should we try to avoid it to start with, or should we try to fix it later on?

Your thought?

This is unavoidable.

:)

[Dragonzbane76]

When that student trained Chen Taiji form, his head would move infront of his hands

trying to understand what you are saying. You got some more description of what he was doing?

Was he doing a shot with his head leading? if so then he was doing that wrong.

[YouKnowWho]

trying to understand what you are saying. You got some more description of what he was doing?

Was he doing a shot with his head leading? if so then he was doing that wrong.

He was not doing application but doing form such as "single whip". I have always believed that my opponent has to pass my hand, wrist, elbow, upper arm before he can reach to my head. If he can reach to my head without having to pass even my hands, it's just not logical to me.

http://imageshack.us/a/img43/2371/wrestling1h.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

"single whip"? are we talking clinch work or striking

single leg?

[Dragonzbane76]

a taiji form then is that what you mean?

[YouKnowWho]

"single whip"? are we talking clinch work or striking

single leg?
It's Chen Taiji but I assume it's similiar to this. Your hand suppose to be infront of your face.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Yang-single.jpg/220px-Yang-single.jpg&imgrefurl=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_whip&h=257&w=220&sz=20&tbnid=3NziVEF2DMJyPM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=77&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsingle%2Bwhip%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=single+whip&usg=__FgZZGwN6eWuARFISYptRARxylWQ=&docid=1Rs0YXIylKkG4M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Idt5UaODCKTg2gW75YH4DA&sqi=2&ved=0CEkQ9QEwBA&dur=93

[YouKnowWho]

a taiji form then is that what you mean?

We are not talking about any application at all.

One of my guys is also a wrestler. He likes to put his leading hand right infront and above his leading knee. This way if his opponent shoots at his leading leg, his leading hand can handle the shooting very effective. Since head shot is not allowed in wrestling, this kind of posture seems quite commonly used.

http://imageshack.us/a/img43/2371/wrestling1h.jpg

At least the Chinese wrestling posture doesn't have this issue.

http://imageshack.us/a/img221/2178/bridgeq.png

[Dragonzbane76]

looked at you pics that helps. I wouldn't say there head is always in front of there hands. Transitioning I was taught to lead with hands. Wrestling has a rule set like any sport model. they do not take into consideration striking but honestly I think wrestlings best qualities are take downs and dominant controlling positioning on the ground with great movement on the ground.

[YouKnowWho]

Fix it later on...
The SC "sleeve grip" is bad habit too. It doesn't disable your opponent's arm. Your opponent can still move his arm freely.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6843/scsleevehold.jpg

The 2 points control "arm wrap" is much better since you will have better control on your opponent's arm.

http://imageshack.us/a/img38/4088/armwrap1.png

Since it's much easier to get 1 point control "sleeve grip" than to get 2 points control "arm wrap", people take the short cut. Later on it may take a lots of effort to remove that bad habit. Some bad habits are just not that easy to be removed.

If your goal is "combat" and not just "sport", should your SC instructor skip the "sleeve grip" and go directly into "arm wrap" on day one?

[Golden Arms]

Good question. There is also the issue of factoring in how much experience one can get under a less desirable ruleset (possibly quite a bit more chance to test oneself) vs. under the stricter ruleset we hold ourselves to (but may rarely get to try ourselves out under).

[bawang]

trying to understand what you are saying. You got some more description of what he was doing?

Was he doing a shot with his head leading? if so then he was doing that wrong.

he means wrestling stance, college wrestling.

Wrestling has a rule set like any sport model. they do not take into consideration striking

thats why he calls it a bad habit

[YouKnowWho]

This is unavoidable.

:)

A teacher always tell his students that when your opponent pulls back his leading leg, he is going to advance that leg right after. One should pull his opponent when his opponet steps back that leading leg. It's one of the bad habits developed in Judo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDWtRtJ23cM

[LaRoux]

I had many hours discussion with a Chen Taiji teacher yesterday. He told me that one of his students was a wrestler. When that student trained Chen Taiji form, his head would move infront of his hands. The Chen Taiji teacher tried to correct him but without much luck. It seems that student's body posture was developed at much younger age.

I got on Google and find some pictures and clips. Indeed, their postures are to put their head before their hands.

http://imageshack.us/a/img43/2371/wrestling1h.jpg

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6206/wrestling2z.jpg

In the following clip, we can see that wrestling special posture at 0.15, 1.30, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVCegcfWXp8

All MA sport can develop bad habits. Should we try to avoid it to start with, or should we try to fix it later on?

Your thought?

I'd say the one with the biggest bad habit would be the magical thinking of that Taiji instructor.

Bad habits developed in styles like Taiji, in which the most resistance one gets is in doing push hands, are going to be far worse than those developed in a fully-resistant sport like wrestling.

Any "bad habits" developed in the sport specific environment of competitive wrestling are easily adapted to the full range of unarmed combat, which is why wrestlers have been some of the most successful at adapting to MMA.

[pazman]

I'd say the one with the biggest bad habit would be the magical thinking of that Taiji instructor.

Bad habits developed in styles like Taiji, in which the most resistance one gets is in doing push hands, are going to be far worse than those developed in a fully-resistant sport like wrestling.

Any "bad habits" developed in the sport specific environment of competitive wrestling are easily adapted to the full range of unarmed combat, which is why wrestlers have been some of the most successful at adapting to MMA.

If the guy is wanting to learn taiji, I doubt he's training for MMA. Where was this even mentioned?

[LaRoux]

If the guy is wanting to learn taiji, I doubt he's training for MMA. Where was this even mentioned?

He was talking about "bad habits", such as putting the head forward. This is not a bad habit in contexts where you aren't worried about someone punching you in the face.

[pazman]

He was talking about "bad habits", such as putting the head forward. This is not a bad habit in contexts where you aren't worried about someone punching you in the face.

I don't think he was saying it's bad when done in wrestling, but I think it's fair to say that every coach must take into context of what their students' previous training. If the wrestling guy decided he wanted to learn some taiji form (as a hobby, something new to do, etc), then the wrestler's previous habits would become a "bad habit" in the realm of taiji taolu.

There was no mention that the guy was there to learn how to fight.

[LaRoux]

I don't think he was saying it's bad when done in wrestling, but I think it's fair to say that every coach must take into context of what their students' previous training. If the wrestling guy decided he wanted to learn some taiji form (as a hobby, something new to do, etc), then the wrestler's previous habits would become a "bad habit" in the realm of taiji taolu.

There was no mention that the guy was there to learn how to fight.

Fair enough. However, if wrestlers can learn to keep their heads back in the context of MMA, I'm pretty sure they can easily do the same in the context of taiji.

[pazman]

Fair enough. However, if wrestlers can learn to keep their heads back in the context of MMA, I'm pretty sure they can easily do the same in the context of taiji.

Yeah, me too.

The problem sounds like taiji coach needs to review his methods, develop training cues suited to this student, and also examine why wrestlers stand the way they do. Every good coach doesn't dismiss their students' previous training. I think instead of complaining of bad habits, the coach can maybe look for the "good habits" that the athlete brings from his wrestling experience.

[Dragonzbane76]

The problem sounds like taiji coach needs to review his methods, develop training cues suited to this student, and also examine why wrestlers stand the way they do. Every good coach doesn't dismiss their students' previous training. I think instead of complaining of bad habits, the coach can maybe look for the "good habits" that the athlete brings from his wrestling experience

this is what I was thinking.

[Scythefall]

I don't think it's right to try and blame the student's wrestling training for his inability to correct his own posture. I mean, unless he's got some kind of injury that forces him to have an incorrect posture.

Some students just plain don't listen. Without the student's comments I can't really guess what he might be thinking.

We had a guy in my class who always flung his head around when he'd do kicks. The teachers would stop him and tell him and he'd go right on doing it without even a single attempt to correct. Some people have no body awareness.

[xinyidizi]

I had many hours discussion with a Chen Taiji teacher yesterday. He told me that one of his students was a wrestler. When that student trained Chen Taiji form, his head would move infront of his hands. The Chen Taiji teacher tried to correct him but without much luck. It seems that student's body posture was developed at much younger age.

I got on Google and find some pictures and clips. Indeed, their postures are to put their head before their hands.

http://imageshack.us/a/img43/2371/wrestling1h.jpg

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6206/wrestling2z.jpg

In the following clip, we can see that wrestling special posture at 0.15, 1.30, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVCegcfWXp8

All MA sport can develop bad habits. Should we try to avoid it to start with, or should we try to fix it later on?

Your thought?

Rules of the game form our techniques and postures. There is no need to correct it directly. Just punch/slap his head every time he leaves it unprotected and he will correct himself automatically. If he leaves his groin unprotected as well you can kick, knee or strike on his lower abdomen a few times and he won't make that mistake. At least that's how my teacher used to correct us. No need to do it with full power to cause injury.

[YouKnowWho]

There is no need to correct it directly. Just punch/slap his head every time he leaves it unprotected and he will correct himself automatically.
Agree! The best correction is not from words but from action.

Everytime when I punched at my student and he gave me a hard block, I always borrowed his blocking force, span my arm, and changed my straight punch into a hook punch at his head. After I did that several times, my student stopped to block my punch too hard. He also develop a good habit that after he blocks my punch, my punch will change, he has to deal with my changing after that. Now he is thinking one step ahead of his game.

[Robinhood]

Agree! The best correction is not from words but from action.

Everytime when I punched at my student and he gave me a hard block, I always borrowed his blocking force, span my arm, and changed my straight punch into a hook punch at his head. After I did that several times, my student stopped to block my punch too hard. He also develop a good habit that after he blocks my punch, my punch will change, he has to deal with my changing after that. Now he is thinking one step ahead of his game.

Thinking ahead ? ,might be the wrong description. Not thinking would be better.

[David Jamieson]

If you are training to participate in sport, I don't know what bad habits you would develop. You are training towards that sport.

I think you are at greater risk of developing bad habits in martial arts by training in a bubble of compliance and non testing.

Sport will teach you a lot more quickly when you are failing than by trying to correct without understanding how something is broken in the first place.

One thing I constantly encounter with Kung Fu people often is that they leave their pumpkin out like a big target with way too much frequency. Cover your head, keep your guard up and be fully aware of the whole body in front of you.

Wrestling trains the position forward because there isn't a threat of being hit in the head. Why Kung Fu people or Karate or the worst of all to do it are TKD people do this is a mystery. It's also martially foolish. Get your hands up!

[MasterKiller]

Chambering your fists to your waist when you punch is way more retarded.

http://www.traditionalfightingarts.com/regular_classes_files/rg5.gif

[Brule]

Chambering your fists to your waist when you punch is way more retarded.

http://www.traditionalfightingarts.com/regular_classes_files/rg5.gif

Probably because you haven't been taught correctly. This move is not as retarded as you think. It teaches you to keep your elbows in when punching and to drive forward towards your target. It also gets your head out of the way as you can see the lead foot is off to the side compared to the back foot, so there is minimal chance of getting hit.

:D Sorry, I tried to but I agree. It's retarded...;)

[David Jamieson]

Chambering your fists to your waist when you punch is way more retarded.

http://www.traditionalfightingarts.com/regular_classes_files/rg5.gif

Not as a training mechanism.

As a fighting tactic? Yes, it's foolish to do this.
To train someone to keep the elbows down and the arms closer to the body, it's a viable method.

chambered kicks and punches are beginners drills after all.
It's not like guys who have finally mastered their style "train" this. They teach it, but train it?

[MasterKiller]

Not as a training mechanism.

As a fighting tactic? Yes, it's foolish to do this.
To train someone to keep the elbows down and the arms closer to the body, it's a viable method.

chambered kicks and punches are beginners drills after all.
It's not like guys who have finally mastered their style "train" this. They teach it, but train it?

Training/teaching positions and body alignment outside the context of their application is also retarded.

"Hey New Guy! Do this form this way for 8 months! Then, stop doing it that way and do it correctly! That's the traditional method of our masters!"

[Brule]

Too many times schools have their students do this then when sparring comes all you see is a ton of head shots and guys with their hands down. How can you teach people to keep their hands low and then expect them to protect themselves when it counts.

[David Jamieson]

Training/teaching positions and body alignment outside the context of their application is also retarded.

"Hey New Guy! Do this form this way for 8 months! Then, stop doing it that way and do it correctly! That's the traditional method of our masters!"

reallly..so lifting weight is bad for developing a fighter?

There is all sorts of appendant training that is about breaking old habits and about developing areas that will be used.

I can't agree with your point. If everything we did was specific to the application, then where would the extra needs come in?

[David Jamieson]

Too many times schools have their students do this then when sparring comes all you see is a ton of head shots and guys with their hands down. How can you teach people to keep their hands low and then expect them to protect themselves when it counts.

What schools? how many times?

these broad and general statements about the significance of traditional training methods don't explain anything about why they're bad and they only explain what individuals don't like or understand.

If people train others to spar with their hands down, they are indeed training them wrong. In which case, take a walk from that school that does that.

[YouKnowWho]

Chambering your fists to your waist when you punch is way more retarded.

http://www.traditionalfightingarts.com/regular_classes_files/rg5.gif
Of course it's for training and not for combat. I will even go to the extream by putting both hands on my right waist before striking, and left hand on my left waist after striking. This way I will have my left shoulder forward before my punch, and have my right shoulder forward after my punch. I will know that my body has turned a perfect 180 degree during my punch.

To move your body from one extream to another extream is one of many power generation methods. IMO, Only punching by using arm without using waist (hip) is a "bad habit".

[Brule]

What schools? how many times?

these broad and general statements about the significance of traditional training methods don't explain anything about why they're bad and they only explain what individuals don't like or understand.

If people train others to spar with their hands down, they are indeed training them wrong. In which case, take a walk from that school that does that.

3 of the 4 that I've been a member of. All the time, not once while I was with them did we practise keeping the guard up.

[David Jamieson]

3 of the 4 that I've been a member of. All the time, not once while I was with them did we practise keeping the guard up.

Yeesh.

All I can say to that is..."Jebas!"

That is a pretty terrible experience.
WTF?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chambering your fists to your waist when you punch is way more retarded.

http://www.traditionalfightingarts.com/regular_classes_files/rg5.gif

There are two views on this:
1) the longer movements make for more exercise
2) the longer movements make for a more powerful strike.

Both have been shown to be true BUT both have also been shown to "not true" since many MA do NOT chamber their strikes and their fighters have comparable, if not better, striking power.

[MasterKiller]

There are two views on this:
1) the longer movements make for more exercise
2) the longer movements make for a more powerful strike.


Sanjuro's punching coach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7D8EUz_b9Y

[MasterKiller]

reallly..so lifting weight is bad for developing a fighter?
Do you lift weights with the intent of locking a joint? Or do you lift weights with the intent of building your mechanical strength. God help you if it's the former.


If everything we did was specific to the application, then where would the extra needs come in? Extra needs are specific, as well. If you want to run a marathon, there is no need to run wind sprints. Even weight lifting is tailored to specific application, depending on the sport/activity. NFL players and ice skaters both benefit from weight training...just not the same type of weight training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro's punching coach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7D8EUz_b9Y

Shame on you, advocating the gratuitous abuse of watermelons !:mad:

[David Jamieson]

Do you lift weights with the intent of locking a joint? Or do you lift weights with the intent of building your mechanical strength. God help you if it's the former.

Extra needs are specific, as well. If you want to run a marathon, there is no need to run wind sprints. Even weight lifting is tailored to specific application, depending on the sport/activity. NFL players and ice skaters both benefit from weight training...just not the same type of weight training.

What you are failing to understand is that the chambering is a method to keep arms in and elbows down. This facilitates correct alignment when striking.

Back pedaling; you're doing it in favour of terms and methods you understand vs those you apparently don't or feign not understanding.

I thought you studied some kind of Korean Kung Fu? In which case you should know exactly what chambering is about and when and why it's introduced into the training regimen of the kung fu student.

[MasterKiller]

What you are failing to understand is that the chambering is a method to keep arms in and elbows down. This facilitates correct alignment when striking. You know what else teaches you to keep your elbows down? Punching with your elbows down. Except you get the added benefit of also doing everything else correctly.


I thought you studied some kind of Korean Kung Fu? In which case you should know exactly what chambering is about and when and why it's introduced into the training regimen of the kung fu student. Hey, we can't all learn Black Tiger from Sifus who learned off VHS tapes and refuse to acknowldge it.

[David Jamieson]

You know what else teaches you to keep your elbows down? Punching with your elbows down. Except you get the added benefit of also doing everything else correctly.

Hey, we can't all learn Black Tiger from Sifus who learned off VHS tapes and refuse to acknowldge it.

Oooh aren't you just a snippy little ***** today. lol

If you wanna make fun of one of my teachers without knowing him, or his circumstances, or his teachers, go ahead. I could not care less.

That wasn't my point Gerald you ass hat. The point was that Kung Fu isn't western boxing, boxing isn't wrestling, wrestling isn't sword fighting etc etc.

I don't know why you whine so much about Kung Fu on a Fu Forum.
You passive aggressive fruitcake.

[GeneChing]

...before the bored mods kill each other. :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

That wasn't my point Gerald you ass hat. The point was that Kung Fu isn't wetsren boxing, boxing isn't wrestling, wrestling isn't sword fighting.

Using training methods that later have to be corrected for application is just bad teaching. That's why the learning curve is so steep for new students, and why practical fighting using CMA takes so long to develop.

I mean, if you want to be really good at traditional training methods, that's your perogative. But I'm not trying to be the best at exercising.


I don't know why you whine so much about Kung Fu on a Fu Forum.
You passive aggressive fruitcake.

Kettle much? You are the biggest whiner here. And hands down the biggest b[itch on these boards.

[David Jamieson]

Using training methods that later have to be corrected for application is just bad teaching. That's why the learning curve is so steep for new students, and why practical fighting using CMA takes so long to develop.

I mean, if you want to be really good at traditional training methods, that's your perogative. But I'm not trying to be the best at exercising. Change is growth you fool. If you don't know what progressive advancement is then I don't expect you'll get anywhere with anything. lol. Seriously, there is a lot of stupid in what you've just written here. What are you "the best" at anyway? Anything?




Kettle much? You are the biggest whiner here. And hands down the biggest b[itch on these boards. lol, ooohhh, Grade 6 tactics eh...well sorry little kid. lol You want a lolly for your butthurt little boy?

[MasterKiller]

Change is growth you fool. If you don't know what progressive advancement is then I don't expect you'll get anywhere with anything. lol. Seriously, there is a lot of stupid in what you've just written here.

lol, ooohhh, Grade 6 tactics eh...well sorry little kid. lol You want a lolly for your butthurt little boy?

Lol, you are such a self-important ****. You always try to take the high road event though you are the first to hurl personal insults.

[David Jamieson]

Lol, you are such a self-important ****. You always try to take the high road event though you are the first to hurl personal insults.

Call a wahmbulance, butthurt in progress.
:p

You're easy, which means your head is soft.
Better Harden up or forever have bunched panties.

[MasterKiller]

Call a wahmbulance, butthurt in progress.
:p

You're easy, which means your head is soft.
Better Harden up or forever have bunched panties.

Yeah, coming from the guy who deletes every thread and post that offends his personal sensibilities, your taunts mean nothing.

I lose no sleep over anything you say. In fact, I almost always ignore your posts because they are full of fluff and pomp but have very little substance.

Fact is, you know way less than you think you do. The sad part is, you're the only one here who hasn't realized it.

[David Jamieson]

No takers on the flame wars I guess...

hmmm hmmm hmmm la dee dee, la dee da...

Here's a bad habit that martial artists develop in sport:

they think they're safe.

You are never safe, is the correct attitude.

The worst habit developed in sport in context to martial arts and the reality of violence is tapping. In wrestling, not so bad, in MMA, I think the tap, "respect the tap" etc is a bad habit that is exclusive to that.

counter? discuss? debate?

[David Jamieson]

Yeah, coming from the guy who deletes every thread and post that offends his personal sensibilities, your taunts mean nothing.

I lose no sleep over anything you say. In fact, I almost always ignore your posts because they are full of fluff and pomp but have very little substance.

Fact is, you know way less than you think you do. The sad part is, you're the only one here who hasn't realized it.


And yet here you are with my quote in your sig line and a response for every little thing I say.
lol. That is idiocy at the level of awesome. Good for you little guy. Now go and pretend you are a bad ass like no other.

[MasterKiller]

And yet here you are with my quote in your sig line and a response for every little thing I say.
lol. That is idiocy at the level of awesome. Good for you little guy. Now go and pretend you are a bad ass like no other.

LOL! You quoted me first, dip****. Otherwise, I never would have responded to your asinine posts.

And I only keep that quote in my signature because I know how much it burns you to know I have the same moderation rights as you. Someone has to save this place from your solipsism.

[David Jamieson]

LOL! You quoted me first, dip****. Otherwise, I never would have responded to your asinine posts.

And I only keep that quote in my signature because I know how much it burns you to know I have the same moderation rights as you. Someone has to save this place from your solipsism.

You don't have the same rights as me, nor I you.
Check it for yourself I guess.

I'm actually not burned by anything. Do you really think so? Really?
I think you have brain damage. Seriously, I really do.

[MasterKiller]

You don't have the same rights as me, nor I you.
Check it for yourself I guess.

I'm actually not burned by anything. Do you really think so? Really?
I think you have brain damage. Seriously, I really do.

Hey man, I can always make PMs public and prove my point. I'm not sure you want everyone to know what a whiny baby you've been the last few months, though.

[David Jamieson]

Hey man, I can always make PMs public and prove my point. I'm not sure you want everyone to know what a whiny baby you've been the last few months, though.

You could do whatever you like.
It's no secret I don't care for you moderating the main board because of all the stupid and useless crap you dump on it.

Not to mention your stupid hatred of TCMA and all the passive aggressive crap you do around that.

When I asked for you to be removed, it was as mod of this main board because of that. I don't care if you are OT or MMA. You really are in my view quite often inppropriate to the main board and I don't mind repeating that.

I leave it to Gene to make any and all decisions and he made his decision. I can abide by it. What's your problem??

Here we are. I still wouldn't mind seeing you tossed. But not because I'm a whiner, rather its because you aren't par for the course in my opinion.

I am not secretive, I was pretty open about it. You are still butthurt.
I would still like to see you go. But it's not my place to do it, and so, here we are.

So, what do you say to that? Hmmmn? I mean there it is. Should you call all your school yard pals and see if you can pile on me again in an orgy of TCMA hate?

Screw you Gerald. Why don't you cry about it with your big fat head on your huge pillow at night. :p

[MasterKiller]

You could do whatever you like.
It's no secret I don't care for you moderating the main board because of all the stupid and useless crap you dump on it.

Not to mention your stupid hatred of TCMA and all the passive aggressive crap you do around that.

When I asked for you to be removed, it was as mod of this main board because of that. I don't care if you are OT or MMA. You really are in my view quite often inppropriate to the main board and I don't mind repeating that.

I leave it to Gene to make any and all decisions and he made his decision. I can abide by it. What's your problem??

Here we are. I still wouldn't mind seeing you tossed. But not because I'm a whiner, rather its because you aren't par for the course in my opinion.

I am not secretive, I was pretty open about it. You are still butthurt.
I would still like to see you go. But it's not my place to do it, and so, here we are.

So, what do you say to that? Hmmmn? I mean there it is. Should you call all your school yard pals and see if you can pile on me again in an orgy of TCMA hate?

Screw you Gerald. Why don't you cry about it with your big fat head on your huge pillow at night. :p


I'm actually not burned by anything. Do you really think so? Really?
I think you have brain damage. Seriously, I really do.


Point. Set. Match.

[David Jamieson]

Point. Set. Match.

You invest too much time in your phony persona.
Well, why don't you put up the PMs if you think I'm burned?
Come on, why don't you really get your crying out loud out and start being the chess pigeon you really are.


lol, idiots like you are 7.5 cents dozen.

[Brule]

Aren't bad habits taught in every school? I mean who makes the determination on what a bad habit is? One schools or styles bad habit may be another schools way of doing things. ie: in the Muay Thai that I learned, I was told I should go up on the ball of the foot when throwing a front kick or roundhouse. They said it was a bad habit I had developed from kung fu. Now, how were you kung fu guys taught to throw these kicks?

[MasterKiller]

Aren't bad habits taught in every school? I mean who makes the determination on what a bad habit is? One schools or styles bad habit may be another schools way of doing things. ie: in the Muay Thai that I learned, I was told I should go up on the ball of the foot when throwing a front kick or roundhouse. They said it was a bad habit I had developed from kung fu. Now, how were you kung fu guys taught to throw these kicks?

Yeah, this is true, to an extent. It's only a bad habit if it gets exploited. If you can use it effectively, people just say you have a "unique" method.

[David Jamieson]

Aren't bad habits taught in every school? I mean who makes the determination on what a bad habit is? One schools or styles bad habit may be another schools way of doing things. ie: in the Muay Thai that I learned, I was told I should go up on the ball of the foot when throwing a front kick or roundhouse. They said it was a bad habit I had developed from kung fu. Now, how were you kung fu guys taught to throw these kicks?

No roundhouse in Kung Fu, but Front Kick is taught to back foot pivot flat for longer reach.

I've seen many a kung fu guy up on the ball of their foot when they throw a front kick hard though. I believe that is natural extension in most cases.

[Dragonzbane76]

****, we need some flame wars here STAT

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...before the bored mods kill each other.

I would gene but last time I did you banned me :p

[Lucas]

I think one of the bad habbits guys can develop from sport, mainly team sport, is being entirely too comfortable for extended periods of locker room nudity. That too often gets carried over into the public gym, and no one (well i guess by default some guys do) wants to see you having an animated conversation with your jimmy out.

[GoldenBrain]

No roundhouse in Kung Fu, but Front Kick is taught to back foot pivot flat for longer reach.

I've seen many a kung fu guy up on the ball of their foot when they throw a front kick hard though. I believe that is natural extension in most cases.


We do roundhouse kicks in 5 Animal Sil-Lum. It's identical to the Okinawan Karate roundhouse I also learned in that it is chambered just like a front kick and then forms into a roundhouse which makes it less telegraphed. We throw our side kicks this way as well. We also have skip-in and cross behind side and roundhouse kicks and some other variations at higher levels.

Note that at least two of the founding grandmasters of Goju Ryu Shorei-Kan Karate, Chōjun Miyagi and Seikichi Toguchi visited the southern Sil-Lum temple to refine their Karate so that may have something to do with the similarities in kicking styles.

[Pork Chop]

No roundhouse in Kung Fu, but Front Kick is taught to back foot pivot flat for longer reach.

I've seen many a kung fu guy up on the ball of their foot when they throw a front kick hard though. I believe that is natural extension in most cases.

roundhouse is all over the place in northern mantis, but done in the kung fu style, not the Thai one.

if you consider sanshou kung fu, the roundhouses we learned in sanshou were a lot less committed than the roundhouses i do in muay thai.

[Brule]

No roundhouse in Kung Fu, but Front Kick is taught to back foot pivot flat for longer reach.

I've seen many a kung fu guy up on the ball of their foot when they throw a front kick hard though. I believe that is natural extension in most cases.

Maybe not in your, but there was in what I was taught. Not much of a snap to it though so it's different than the typical one you're accustomed to seeing.

[YouKnowWho]

No roundhouse in Kung Fu, ...

The longfist form Tan Tui #7 has roundhouse kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2Cw0iRbSp4

[Miqi]

We do roundhouse kicks in 5 Animal Sil-Lum. It's identical to the Okinawan Karate roundhouse I also learned in that it is chambered just like a front kick and then forms into a roundhouse which makes it less telegraphed. We throw our side kicks this way as well. We also have skip-in and cross behind side and roundhouse kicks and some other variations at higher levels.

Note that at least two of the founding grandmasters of Goju Ryu Shorei-Kan Karate, Chōjun Miyagi and Seikichi Toguchi visited the southern Sil-Lum temple to refine their Karate so that may have something to do with the similarities in kicking styles.

I also have some experience with 5 animals - not necessarily the same school of course, but I did also learn round house kicks, not just as part of the training but actually in forms.

[David Jamieson]

The longfist form Tan Tui #7 has roundhouse kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2Cw0iRbSp4&feature=youtu.be

I learned Bak Sil Lum Tan Tui.
It has 10 roads and no round houses. Road 7 and road 8 both have heel kicks though.

I've not had roundhouse in any of the kung fu I've been shown or learned that was shaolin in origin.

Not that roundhouses are alien to me, they aren't. I'm just saying it wasn't in any of the Shaolin material I've learned.

For instance, here is Kwong Wing Lam doing a demo of Tan Tui from Bak Sil Lum.
He doe the first three roads and then it cuts to the last half of the 6th road an the 7th road at the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI9dH62UpYs

I am not familiar with the 12 and 15 road versions. I believe the 12 roads comes from Chin Wu Association.

[Lucas]

my first kungfu school was a combination of northern shaolin and southern tiger/crane. we had a roundhouse but we called it a saber kick. to be fair though the roundhouse was not in any forms. but we practiced it along side all of our wushu kicks. there were several kicks we practiced as kicks, stand alone from forms.

which imo the roundhouse kick is a very natural kick, i don't believe for one second no chinese people ever used it in their kungfu. not one second sir!

[David Jamieson]

my first kungfu school was a combination of northern shaolin and southern tiger/crane. we had a roundhouse but we called it a saber kick. to be fair though the roundhouse was not in any forms. but we practiced it along side all of our wushu kicks. there were several kicks we practiced as kicks, stand alone from forms.

which imo the roundhouse kick is a very natural kick, i don't believe for one second no chinese people ever used it in their kungfu. not one second sir!

I didn't say people don't use it. heck, I use it. I'm just saying it's not in any shaolin I've learned.

to be fair, there is sweeps and hook step kicks that come close to being a roundhouse, but the intention is to catch and trip and not to blast through.

[Lucas]

you didnt even learn the kick in the kungfu seperately on pads or anything? did you just end up developing it yourself then?

[David Jamieson]

you didnt even learn the kick in the kungfu seperately on pads or anything? did you just end up developing it yourself then?

I started with fencing and wrestling at 9, at 12 Karate, at 14 boxing, wrestling and tkd, at18 tai chi, at 25 Kickboxing, at 29 Shaolin Kung fu.

I was familiar and practiced with teh roundhouse for years before I even started with Kung Fu.

I'm 49 now, I still practice Kung Fu, boxing and sword play. It's all good. :)

[lkfmdc]

Seven Star Praying Mantis
Pek Gwa
Pak Hok (white crane)
Choy Lay Fut
Lama Pai
Lo Han Men (Shanghai lineage)
ALL have variations of "round kick" either baai myuhn teui or hyuhn teui or baai teui

you need to get out more :rolleyes:

[bawang]

you didnt even learn the kick in the kungfu seperately on pads or anything? did you just end up developing it yourself then?

kung fu also doesnt have hook punch, wrestling, or fighting stance because its not in the forms.

[YouKnowWho]

No roundhouse in Kung Fu, ...

I have also learned the white ape 武松鸳鸯腿 (Wu Song Yuan Yang Tui). It's clear to see that at 0.36, there is a roundhoude kick before the back kick.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjM2MjQ1Mg==.html

[YouKnowWho]

I learned Bak Sil Lum Tan Tui.
It has 10 roads and no round houses. Road 7 and road 8 both have heel kicks though.

GM Han Ching-Tan had changed the Tantui #1 by replacing a straight punch into a hook punch (or haymaker). Both GM Han and GM Chang had learned Tantui from Nanking CMA Institute. In Tantui #1 the 2nd punch, I saw GM Chang did a straight punch while GM Han did a hook punch.

GM Han may change Tantui #7 from a heel kick into a roundhouse kick.

[David Jamieson]

GM Han Ching-Tan had changed the Tantui #1 by replacing a straight punch into a hook punch (or haymaker). Both GM Han and GM Chang had learned Tantui from Nanking CMA Institute. In Tantui #1 the 2nd punch, I saw GM Chang did a straight punch while GM Han did a hook punch.

GM Han may change Tantui #7 from a heel kick into a roundhouse kick.

I gotta disagree with you here Sifu Wang.
Here is GM Han doing Tan Tui.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PULhMmsuDqI

The road seven is the same as the bak sil lum.
The only difference is that he stops doing complete 2 sided roads after road 3, does one iteration of the rest following that. Also, on his fourth road, he diagonally steps out of the line. I think this is also seen in other forms from bak sil lum.

I remember seeing another member here doing the other pre-lim form and doing the same side stepping that I never did when I was taught. That might be a flavouring specific to a particular lineage.

[bawang]

asking if kung has has roundhouse is like asking if kung fu has a hook punch. its an understandable question, but also a retarded question.


I learned Bak Sil Lum Tan Tui.
It has 10 roads and no round houses.

because the main kick of tan tui is tan tui.

[David Jamieson]

asking if kung has has roundhouse is like asking if kung fu has a hook punch. its an understandable question, but also a retarded question.



because the main kick of tan tui is tan tui.

tan tui develops the spring leg. It has several different kicks.

Straight kicks, side kicks,snap kicks, heel kicks.
the early kicks and late kicks in the set are from the hip.
the middle kicks are snap/heel and side.

spring leg is what happens when you train this set a lot. (although plyometrics ca get your there faster in my opinion)

[bawang]

I have also learned the white ape 武松鸳鸯腿 (Wu Song Yuan Yang Tui). It's clear to see that at 0.36, there is a roundhoude kick before the back kick.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjM2MjQ1Mg==.html

lots of people say "my style doesnt have ____, its not in the form. my shifu didnt teach me."


i know forms called 24 jabs, 36 hooks. if i explain them, would that make a difference? suddenly open their eyes and change their ways forever?
there will be always something thats not found in a form. there will always be something for those people to whine about. "in kung fu we dont do this". as if not knowing something is a badge of pride.

[David Jamieson]

In all fairness, it's a great set that develops a pretty good set of martial skills.
Oh yeah...it's Muslim in origin too. :)