Nice clip

[guy b.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guWUo8qS53U

Great movement here

[Phil Redmond]

I agree. It's nice clip.

[k gledhill]

Nice subtle toi ma jum angles and " leakproof " attacks.

[wingchunIan]

Not a bad clip but I'm not as impressed as others seem to be. Obvious disparity in abilities means that the more junior of the two fails to pick up the changes in angle and the fact that he retreats in straight lines every time means that he eventually gets run over

[k gledhill]

Not a bad clip but I'm not as impressed as others seem to be. Obvious disparity in abilities means that the more junior of the two fails to pick up the changes in angle and the fact that he retreats in straight lines every time means that he eventually gets run over

You make thinking under attack sound easy. It takes conditioning to move in balance with force and tactics.

[wingchunIan]

You make thinking under attack sound easy. It takes comditioning to move in balance with force and tactics.

it takes training......the way you train is the way you fight. Learning to move whilst maintaining balance and delivering power is fundamental. If your partner is better than you then you can expect to have your balance disrupted and to be out manoevered, but a basic truism of fighting is that moving backwards in a straight line is a bad idea and should be discouraged from day one.

[k gledhill]

it takes training......the way you train is the way you fight. Learning to move whilst maintaining balance and delivering power is fundamental. If your partner is better than you then you can expect to have your balance disrupted and to be out manoevered, but a basic truism of fighting is that moving backwards in a straight line is a bad idea and should be discouraged from day one.

Exactly, but many don't get tactical input to angle according to ? Where to go, why...systematic drilling, making things organic, intuitive.

[guy b.]

Not a bad clip but I'm not as impressed as others seem to be. Obvious disparity in abilities means that the more junior of the two fails to pick up the changes in angle and the fact that he retreats in straight lines every time means that he eventually gets run over

When have you seen a clip of chinese MA without obvious disparity in abilities? Lol. It doesn't negate the fantastic stepping and angling being shown by the attacker here. To be honest it is quite hard not to be chased down and look clumsy when a lot of pressure and close following is being used against you, especially by someone more skilled than yourself, don't you think? I still get a lot out of the clip, despite the fact that one of the two people in it is better than the other.

I remember posting some clips with more evenly matched people a while back. Commentors then complained that they were using open hands and that it wasn't full contact enough, lol.

[wingchunIan]

When have you seen a clip of chinese MA without obvious disparity in abilities? Lol. It doesn't negate the fantastic stepping and angling being shown by the attacker here. To be honest it is quite hard not to be chased down and look clumsy when a lot of pressure and close following is being used against you, especially by someone more skilled than yourself, don't you think? I still get a lot out of the clip, despite the fact that one of the two people in it is better than the other.

I remember posting some clips with more evenly matched people a while back. Commentors then complained that they were using open hands and that it wasn't full contact enough, lol.

Fair enough. As I said in my first post I thought the clip was okay. My gripe with those saying how great it is, is that even with such a difference in ability, if the more junior guy simply angled and introduced some lateral movement those lovely tight changes of angle displayed by his senior aren't as easy to pull off. Also its all well and good having footwork that is awesome when the opponent moves backwards using wing chun footwork but its far harder to do against a partner using different footwork and body motions especially when they work angles and pivot etc.

[sihing]

Fair enough. As I said in my first post I thought the clip was okay. My gripe with those saying how great it is, is that even with such a difference in ability, if the more junior guy simply angled and introduced some lateral movement those lovely tight changes of angle displayed by his senior aren't as easy to pull off. Also its all well and good having footwork that is awesome when the opponent moves backwards using wing chun footwork but its far harder to do against a partner using different footwork and body motions especially when they work angles and pivot etc.

That's like saying boxing sucks when the wrestler takes him down, lol...

Everything has a counter, everything can be vulnerable in the right circumstances, that doesn't negate the fact that a way of doing things is effective. When it comes to fighting, it is always your skills vs the other guys skills, that is the variable, and no one can predict what will work or won't work in that moment the fight breaks out, all one can do is train in what they think is an effective way.

The clip displays an effective way to move and attack IMO, yes it does have it's vulnerability but one has to be able to take advantage of that, talking about it here on a forum means nothing in that regard. Just go see him and see if you can do it vs. him, that's he only thing that counts.

James

[YouKnowWho]

That's like saying boxing sucks when the wrestler takes him down, lol...
If a

- boxer gets taken down by a wrestler, the boxer doesn't have take down resistance.
- wrestler gets knocked down by a boxer, the wrestler doesn't have knock down resistance.

This is why "cross training" is a MUST.

[sihing]

If a

- boxer gets taken down by a wrestler, the boxer doesn't have take down resistance.
- wrestler gets knocked down by a boxer, the wrestler doesn't have knock down resistance.

This is why "cross training" is a MUST.

Yes correct, but that wasn't the point. Regardless is Ali or Tyson gets taken down from a wrestler, both had great boxing skills, that's the point. Any wrestler can get KO'd, whether or not he's had KO resistence, and visa versa. But both, if they know their stuff, have effective skills. Just looking at the skill set itself, not individuals vs other individuals and so forth.
Cross-training isn't a must, only if you compete do you need to cross-train. Yeah, its a good idea, and if you want to be a so called "fighter" you would be wise to cross-train, but if you don't care to be a fighter (that's me), then cross-training is not a necessity..

James

[Graham H]

Not a bad clip but I'm not as impressed as others seem to be. Obvious disparity in abilities means that the more junior of the two fails to pick up the changes in angle and the fact that he retreats in straight lines every time means that he eventually gets run over

Ian

Can you post a clip of how you would fare under such pressure from an attacking training partner?

GH

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guWUo8qS53U

Great movement here

'Great' movement?? No.

'Good' movement?? Okay I would consider that. Typically WSL family stuff but good all the same.

There is an element of Sifu/student mannerisms in the clip, not a more advanced student against another student. Would be interesting to hear if anyone knows if they in fact are Sifu and student because it will explain a lot.

[Graham H]

'Great' movement?? No.

'Good' movement?? Okay I would consider that. Typically WSL family stuff but good all the same.

There is an element of Sifu/student mannerisms in the clip, not a more advanced student against another student. Would be interesting to hear if anyone knows if they in fact are Sifu and student because it will explain a lot.

Spencer

Can you post a clip of how you would fare under such pressure from an attacking training partner?

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer

Can you post a clip of how you would fare under such pressure from an attacking training partner?

GH

No Graham I can't.

Why?? Because it simply wouldn't happen my friend... how about you?? :D

[Graham H]

No Graham I can't.



That figures.

[LoneTiger108]

That figures.

Ha! What 'figures' is that you result to your petty games yet again and have never provided any clips of yourself doing anything, let alone a clip of you coming under such pressures you describe in the clip ;)

Such a girl lol!

[LoneTiger108]

You have posted this diamond before G... which started it's own mud slinging contest because you couldn't take any critique whatsoever!

http://youtu.be/GwKv5mwPCaI

[Ali. R]

His confidence is very high which really helps his ‘Joi jeng’ (his power when chasing), but his adjustment within his upper extremities is consistently off to the point that he does take hits as well. His ‘Joi Yin Chi Sao’ or following what goes/shadowing his opponent's movements would be a lot better if he works more with the idea of 'Lat Sao Chi Sao' attacking straight away from the Mon Sao structure before reconnecting to the Look Sao position, but the development of ‘Han kiu’ or walking the bridge would help that a great deal.

He has a strong concept of ‘Mai Jong’ closing up his situation, but keeps running into this problem ‘Sai E Moon’ attacking positions/areas that are already defended which has no openings because of his adjustment problems dealing with his upper extremities. He can create timing, but I see no ‘Por Si Gan’ or breaking of timing. And while using his Fon Sao techniques, it would be nice to see him use ‘Chen Chor Ma’ (bracing defensively) to keep a strong and consistent position of power after a kick or two.

But overall it’s Ok.

[guy b.]

His confidence is very high which really helps his ‘Joi jeng’ (his power when chasing), but his adjustment within his upper extremities is consistently off to the point that he does take hits as well. His ‘Joi Yin Chi Sao’ or following what goes/shadowing his opponent's movements would be a lot better if he works more with the idea of 'Lat Sao Chi Sao' attacking straight away from the Mon Sao structure before reconnecting to the Look Sao position, but the development of ‘Han kiu’ or walking the bridge would help that a great deal.

He has a strong concept of ‘Mai Jong’ closing up his situation, but keeps running into this problem ‘Sai E Moon’ attacking positions/areas that are already defended which has no openings because of his adjustment problems dealing with his upper extremities. He can create timing, but I see no ‘Por Si Gan’ or breaking of timing. And while using his Fon Sao techniques, it would be nice to see him use ‘Chen Chor Ma’ (bracing defensively) to keep a strong and consistent position of power after a kick or two.

But overall it’s Ok.

Which clip does this refer to?

[guy b.]

'Great' movement?? No.

'Good' movement?? Okay I would consider that. Typically WSL family stuff but good all the same.

There is an element of Sifu/student mannerisms in the clip, not a more advanced student against another student. Would be interesting to hear if anyone knows if they in fact are Sifu and student because it will explain a lot.

What differentiates good and great in this case?

[Ali. R]

Which clip does this refer to?

The Lead and only clip of this thread; and you can see the very solid contact of the student’s great position @ mark: 11, due to the overwhelming aggression of the senior practitioner, who would have done a lot better if he would’ve fought defensively, but did nothing when in that situation and his power would have been more pronounced if he would've fought defensively because he wouldn’t have taken that hit @ mark: 11.

The student pulled two other strikes as well.

[guy b.]

The Lead and only clip of this thread; and you can see the very solid contact of the student’s great position @ mark: 11, due to the overwhelming aggression of the senior practitioner, who would have done a lot better if he would’ve fought defensively, but did nothing when in that situation and his power would have been more pronounced if he would've fought defensively because he wouldn’t have taken that hit @ mark: 11.

The student pulled two other strikes as well.

There is another clip posted in the thread.

At 11 seconds all I see is one guy attempting to get off line while moving backwards as the attacking guy follows quickly with pressure without leaving much time or space for any effective response. I guess it is possible that the defender could have got something off just as he stepped off line, but he didn't, and pressure was quickly back on putting him off balance almost immediately.

I think impossible to say whether it was possible to counter at 11 seconds because the opponent didn't do so and attacker didn't let up pressure

[Graham H]

You have posted this diamond before G... which started it's own mud slinging contest because you couldn't take any critique whatsoever!

http://youtu.be/GwKv5mwPCaI

Ok. Thanks for your input.

[Graham H]

Such a girl lol!

Not bad considering you probably think wing chun was created by one. :D

[guy b.]

Ok. Thanks for your input.

I don't see a problem with that clip? Looks like good student teacher interaction

[Ali. R]

There is another clip posted in the thread.

At 11 seconds all I see is one guy attempting to get off line while moving backwards as the attacking guy follows quickly with pressure without leaving much time or space for any effective response. I guess it is possible that the defender could have got something off just as he stepped off line, but he didn't, and pressure was quickly back on putting him off balance almost immediately.

I think impossible to say whether it was possible to counter at 11 seconds because the opponent didn't do so and attacker didn't let up pressure


I’m sorry, I thought that was a part of his signature (second clip), and the chop on the side of his neck @ mark: 11 is his own hand, I’ve never had glasses before and I’m trying to convince myself that I don’t need them, and after putting them on, I can see that he wasn’t hit @ mark 11.,, a rude awakening and fact that I’m getting old (thank you). But everything else outside of being hit stands.

I see nothing wrong with the clip too, well,,,, it’s okay, but the other statements in which I’ve made about that clip could clearly be seen, and he has the tools to develop all of those things that I’ve mention, unless he has them already and chooses not to express them on a clip.


Take care,

[guy b.]

I’m sorry, I thought that was a part of his signature (second clip), and the chop on the side of his neck @ mark: 11 is his own hand, I’ve never had glasses before and I’m trying to convince myself that I don’t need them, and after putting them on, I can see that he wasn’t hit @ mark 11.,, a rude awakening and fact that I’m getting old (thank you). But everything else outside of being hit stands.

I see nothing wrong with the clip too, well,,,, it’s okay, but the other statements in which I’ve made about that clip could clearly be seen, and he has the tools to develop all of those things that I’ve mention, unless he has them already and chooses not to express them on a clip.


Take care,

Not sure I understand. Can you post the link to the clip you are commenting on please?

If it is the one I posted in the OP then what is your continuing issue with it? Can you elaborate?

[Ali. R]

Not sure I understand. Can you post the link to the clip you are commenting on please?

If it is the one I posted in the OP then what is your continuing issue with it? Can you elaborate?

Sure,

I don’t have an issue with anything at all and hope very much that I’m not coming off that way. That is not my intentions to do so, and yes, I’m talking about the clip you put up.

When I’d mentioned that his ‘Joi Yin Chi Sao’ or following what goes/shadowing his opponent's movements would be a lot better if he works more with the idea of 'Lat Sao Chi Sao' attacking straight away from the Mon Sao.

I’m talking about him asking more with ‘Chen Chor Ma’ (bracing defensively), which will make his opponent walk right into his strikes rather than forcing them out, and will give him even more control of his opponent’s fighting lines without bringing his shoulders up and finding more control of his situation with less movements.

‘Say i moon’ attacking positions/areas that are already guarded which have no openings (more at the end of the clip) because of his adjustment problems dealing with his upper extremities.

I was again talking about if he worked more on ‘Haan kiu’ or walking the bridge would help him a great deal because it would also take away the idea of head hunting and making his striking percentage even more higher, and while bringing out the element of counterattacking.

Take care,

[JPinAZ]

Ok. Thanks for your input.

That was you in the clip doing the bong laap hop partner dance for a minute and a half??
Very 'interesting' to see this clip of the guy that puts down and criticizes just about every non-WSL person on this forum...

[wingchunIan]

That's like saying boxing sucks when the wrestler takes him down, lol...
Only we aren't boxing. Boxing is designed for fighting against other boxers so it is fine if their footwork only works in that scenario (it actually works well elsewhere but that is a separate point) in fact their footwork has been honed through evolution in that sporting context against other boxers over many years. Is the Wing Chun that you practise a sport designed for use only against other Wing Chun folks?
IMHO practising Wing Chun so that it looks brilliant against other Wing Chun folks is rather pointless, even more so when the second party is clearly significantly inferior in skill level.
I also maintain that going backwards in straight lines is a very very bad idea unless of course you are fencing or fighting on a balance beam or tightrope:p

[LoneTiger108]

What differentiates good and great in this case?

It's no secret that I am not a fan of the type of shuffling going on in both clips, because fme this type of training is for interactive and distance/timing purposes where both players fuse together to improve themselves, so in that respect I prefer Grahams clip to the bullying, over powering Sifu and his student ;)

If I am brutally honest, I don't think I have seen a clip anywhere online that would justify the 'great' label! But I do continue to live in hope... I mean somebody somewhere out there must know a thing or two about our legwork and kicks that work in unison with all this flashy handwork??!!

I know it exists, but have still to see much evidence online.

[Graham H]

That was you in the clip doing the bong laap hop partner dance for a minute and a half??
Very 'interesting' to see this clip of the guy that puts down and criticizes just about every non-WSL person on this forum...

Do I really? Thank you. I hope you have a nice day today.

[sihing]

Only we aren't boxing. Boxing is designed for fighting against other boxers so it is fine if their footwork only works in that scenario (it actually works well elsewhere but that is a separate point) in fact their footwork has been honed through evolution in that sporting context against other boxers over many years. Is the Wing Chun that you practise a sport designed for use only against other Wing Chun folks?
IMHO practising Wing Chun so that it looks brilliant against other Wing Chun folks is rather pointless, even more so when the second party is clearly significantly inferior in skill level.
I also maintain that going backwards in straight lines is a very very bad idea unless of course you are fencing or fighting on a balance beam or tightrope:p

Boxing is designed to teach someone how to punch, hard and fast, from a variety of angles, not to fight other boxers, because a boxer is capable of KO'g any other fighter, wrestler, kicker, whatever, so the tool development is what it does, the application of it and how well one can apply it is set to many variables, how well he knows his boxing science, how good the other guy is at his skill set, toughness, intent, environmental concerns and it goes on and on. You just have to look at the skill set, not a pretend outcome vs some fighter.

My VT is a development tool, it develops a whole bunch of things, not going to write it all out here. It can be used vs anyone, whether it works or not is set to the variable I described above, and no one here or anywhere can predict what will happen in a fight, you train in something to help you become more effective, that's all you can do, even doing that doesn't guarantee anything.

There's a time a place for everything, going back straight maybe work at the right time and place, or going back at angles same thing, nothing is absolutely going to work right as it looks on a piece of paper in theory mode.

J

[guy b.]

Sure,

I don’t have an issue with anything at all and hope very much that I’m not coming off that way. That is not my intentions to do so, and yes, I’m talking about the clip you put up.

When I’d mention that his ‘Joi Yin Chi Sao’ or following what goes/shadowing his opponent's movements would be a lot better if he works more with the idea of 'Lat Sao Chi Sao' attacking straight away from the Mon Sao.

I’m talking about him asking more with ‘Chen Chor Ma’ (bracing defensively), which will make his opponent walk right into his strikes rather than forcing them out, and will give him even more control of his opponent’s fighting lines without bringing his shoulders up and finding more control of his situation with less movements.

‘Say i moon’ attacking positions/areas that are already guarded which have no openings (more at the end of the clip) because of his adjustment problems dealing with his upper extremities.

I was again talking about if he worked more on ‘Haan kiu’ or walking the bridge would help him a great deal because it would also take away the idea of head hunting and making his striking percentage even more higher, and while bringing out the element of counterattacking.

Take care,

So in a nutshell you are saying that he needs to attack without winding up, he needs to brace defensively (rather than what, be mobile?), he needs to punch the guy rather than missing or hitting arms (this sounds like a criticism that could apply to anyone), and he needs to hit to the body more?

[guy b.]

It's no secret that I am not a fan of the type of shuffling going on in both clips, because fme this type of training is for interactive and distance/timing purposes where both players fuse together to improve themselves, so in that respect I prefer Grahams clip to the bullying, over powering Sifu and his student ;)

If I am brutally honest, I don't think I have seen a clip anywhere online that would justify the 'great' label! But I do continue to live in hope... I mean somebody somewhere out there must know a thing or two about our legwork and kicks that work in unison with all this flashy handwork??!!

I know it exists, but have still to see much evidence online.

You would be happier if they lifted their feet higher and placed them more?

As to cooperative/interactive training, isn't this a gor sau clip? Cooperation of the type you are talking about is done in other types of training I would say

[wingchunIan]

You would be happier if they lifted their feet higher and placed them more?

As to cooperative/interactive training, isn't this a gor sau clip? Cooperation of the type you are talking about is done in other types of training I would say

If the clip was supposed to be gor sao then my previous comments about straight lines apply x100.

[wingchunIan]

Boxing is designed to teach someone how to punch, hard and fast, from a variety of angles, not to fight other boxers, because a boxer is capable of KO'g any other fighter, wrestler, kicker, whatever, so the tool development is what it does, the application of it and how well one can apply it is set to many variables, how well he knows his boxing science, how good the other guy is at his skill set, toughness, intent, environmental concerns and it goes on and on.

errrm - no. People may train boxing with an intention to use it for a variety of purposes or to fight against a variety of styles and for the record I agree that it works exceptionally well for many protaganists. I also agree that it teaches people to hit hard and fast as well as how to avoid and defend punches (NB defence is an important part of boxing and it is not simply learning how to hit hard and fast) however boxing has evolved over many years, it has evolved with the purpose of fighting and beating other boxers by fighting within the rule set of a boxing match and it will continue to do so because it is a sport with millions upon millions of pounds invested every year.
Can a boxer fight successfully in the street / outside of boxing rules? sure and in such circumstances the level of success depends upon many things including the individual's experience of perceiving and responding to attacks and movement that are alien to boxing (which they do not teach in boxing gyms - why because boxing is designed to fight against boxing), however the success or otherwise of an individual does not alter the fact that boxing as a system is designed to fight other boxers

You just have to look at the skill set, not a pretend outcome vs some fighter. lol, you are the only one imagining pretend outcomes. I refer you to your post where you introduced the subject of a boxer being taken down by a wrestler........

[Ali. R]

So in a nutshell you are saying that he needs to attack without winding up, he needs to brace defensively (rather than what, be mobile?), he needs to punch the guy rather than missing or hitting arms (this sounds like a criticism that could apply to anyone), and he needs to hit to the body more?

What I’m saying is, he doesn’t need to do anything new against that particular practitioner, but against someone that’s more experienced than the one his playing with, he will run into trouble and his endeavors will not be as promising. Because anyone with a trained eye knows what I’m saying (not saying you don’t).

Again,,, unless he knows about those things in which I’ve mentioned and choose not to put them on a clip.

Take care,

[sihing]

errrm - no. People may train boxing with an intention to use it for a variety of purposes or to fight against a variety of styles and for the record I agree that it works exceptionally well for many protaganists. I also agree that it teaches people to hit hard and fast as well as how to avoid and defend punches (NB defence is an important part of boxing and it is not simply learning how to hit hard and fast) however boxing has evolved over many years, it has evolved with the purpose of fighting and beating other boxers by fighting within the rule set of a boxing match and it will continue to do so because it is a sport with millions upon millions of pounds invested every year.
Can a boxer fight successfully in the street / outside of boxing rules? sure and in such circumstances the level of success depends upon many things including the individual's experience of perceiving and responding to attacks and movement that are alien to boxing (which they do not teach in boxing gyms - why because boxing is designed to fight against boxing), however the success or otherwise of an individual does not alter the fact that boxing as a system is designed to fight other boxers
lol, you are the only one imagining pretend outcomes. I refer you to your post where you introduced the subject of a boxer being taken down by a wrestler........

I think you just agreed with everything I said, then why the "errrm no"?? If boxing can be used against a variety of opponents besides other boxers, then it should be a "errrm yes..", who's to say what Boxing is designed for, you or me? Did we create Boxing? No, so it is up to the person coaching it, or even anyone just looking at it can decided what it is designed for but to each their own.

I didn't make up an imaginary scenario, I just used an analogy to your critique of using Toi Ma in the way it was demo'd in the clip. You saying doing it like that is wrong is like saying boxing doesn't work if a boxer is taken down by a wrestler, it's all relative and not possible to deduct on paper or a forum like this, anything can work at anytime, we just train in something to increase our odds of success in a fight and to enjoy the process of training/learning/coaching, nothing is ever guaranteed 100%.

J

[wingchunIan]

I think you just agreed with everything I said, then why the "errrm no"?? If boxing can be used against a variety of opponents besides other boxers, then it should be a "errrm yes..", who's to say what Boxing is designed for, you or me? Did we create Boxing? No, so it is up to the person coaching it, or even anyone just looking at it can decided what it is designed for but to each their own.

I didn't make up an imaginary scenario, I just used an analogy to your critique of using Toi Ma in the way it was demo'd in the clip. You saying doing it like that is wrong is like saying boxing doesn't work if a boxer is taken down by a wrestler, it's all relative and not possible to deduct on paper or a forum like this, anything can work at anytime, we just train in something to increase our odds of success in a fight and to enjoy the process of training/learning/coaching, nothing is ever guaranteed 100%.

J
Either you're too dumb or too stubborn to see you're talking nonsense, whichever it is I can't be bothered wasting any more time going round in circles with you.

[BPWT]

I think you just agreed with everything I said, then why the "errrm no"?? If boxing can be used against a variety of opponents besides other boxers, then it should be a "errrm yes..", who's to say what Boxing is designed for, you or me? Did we create Boxing? No, so it is up to the person coaching it, or even anyone just looking at it can decided what it is designed for but to each their own.

I think Ian is saying that boxing (modern, competition-based boxing) is designed, well, for competition-rules boxing. ;) Of course, a boxer when attacked by, say, a BJJ specialist, will do what he can to win (and maybe is successful), but the boxer would be seriously out of his comfort zone because he doesn't train for that type of encounter.

Ask a pro boxer how many hours a week he trains; then ask him what percentage of that training is dedicated to dealing with single leg takedowns. The boxer trains to fight with certain rules in mind. The BBJ guy plays with a slightly different set of rules, rules that don't apply to a boxing bout (boxing, obviously, has rules for a stand-up game using punches - rules that prohibit a ground game).

In that sense, while both fighters fight to win, their definition of a win (or rather how you win), in a competitive setting, is at odds. That training, naturally, will carry over to, say, a fight outside of a ring/off the mats.

Or think about a Judoka who has trained for years to develop his competition game - and think of him applying his competition-defined art against a Silat player holding a machete. Both, if they use their arts the way they have been taught for the purpose they train for, have a very different understanding of what "winning" means. :D

Different arts = different games.

[sihing]

I think Ian is saying that boxing (modern, competition-based boxing) is designed, well, for competition-rules boxing. ;) Of course, a boxer when attacked by, say, a BJJ specialist, will do what he can to win (and maybe is successful), but the boxer would be seriously out of his comfort zone because he doesn't train for that type of encounter.

Ask a pro boxer how many hours a week he trains; then ask him what percentage of that training is dedicated to dealing with single leg takedowns. The boxer trains to fight with certain rules in mind. The BBJ guy plays with a slightly different set of rules, rules that don't apply to a boxing bout (boxing, obviously, has rules for a stand-up game using punches - rules that prohibit a ground game).

In that sense, while both fighters fight to win, their definition of a win (or rather how you win), in a competitive setting, is at odds. That training, naturally, will carry over to, say, a fight outside of a ring/off the mats.

Or think about a Judoka who has trained for years to develop his competition game - and think of him applying his competition-defined art against a Silat player holding a machete. Both, if they use their arts the way they have been taught for the purpose they train for, have a very different understanding of what "winning" means. :D

Different arts = different games.

Yes, all you said is true, in a sense. But it's an exclusive approach if all you think Boxing is used for it to fight another Boxer. In the sporting ring, yes that is the correct way to look at it, but that's only one way to see it. All one would need to do is train the boxer vs some wrestlers so he can develop a takedown defence and then you would have an effective boxer in MMA. If he never meets a wrestler he won't know what to do effectively to defeat him, other than KO'g him quickly. Give him some time in with wrestlers and you have an even more effective overall fighter, not just someone limited to fighting other boxers.

When I look at methods I don't look at application, how they are going to use it vs any specific fighter, boxing can work against anyone if he is trained right, not just against other boxers, that's a limited POV in my book.

James

[guy b.]

If the clip was supposed to be gor sao then my previous comments about straight lines apply x100.

This comment?


the more junior of the two fails to pick up the changes in angle and the fact that he retreats in straight lines every time means that he eventually gets run over

Isn't gor sau supposed to be a learning experience, especially if there is a disparity in abilities?

[guy b.]

What I’m saying is, he doesn’t need to do anything new against that particular practitioner, but against someone that’s more experienced than the one his playing with, he will run into trouble and his endeavors will not be as promising. Because anyone with a trained eye knows what I’m saying (not saying you don’t).

Again,,, unless he knows about those things in which I’ve mentioned and choose not to put them on a clip.

Take care,

So he should be doing something he doesn't need to do angainst someone he doesn't need to do it against in the hope of impressing the odd "trained eye"?

[Ali. R]

It’s obvious you’re not following me which clearly shows your skill level. When you’ve experienced the things in which I’ve mentioned; far from just plain mobility, everything will be much clearer.

The more I’d explain to you; you’ve only put me in the category of contempt, which is not my intensions, but only to share my point of view.

I find it odd that no one stands up when “criticism”* comes my way by you and others (not trying to fight), and by finding contempt in me about something you clearly know nothing about (experienced), truly makes your statements very hyperbolic and pragmatic.

it really shows in your rebuttals (you don’t understand) that makes this whole conversation very odd, which really gravitates to your hyper-individualism of self-gratification and convictions towards me by clearly turning this into something it is not, when I mean no harm to anyone at all.


Take care,

[poulperadieux]

Ha! What 'figures' is that you result to your petty games yet again and have never provided any clips of yourself doing anything, let alone a clip of you coming under such pressures you describe in the clip ;)

Such a girl lol!

Graham is not a girl...

Voyons.

There is a clip of him out there,

according to it, we clearly see he's a cute lill' rabbit.

[guy b.]

It’s obvious you’re not following me which clearly shows your skill level. When you’ve experienced the things in which I’ve mentioned; far from just plain mobility, everything will be much clearer.

The only thing which shows my skill level is my skill level. This is a physical thing which is invisible on a forum.

I don't understand your criticism here. You say the guy in the clip isn't doing certain things that would impress you but also concede that he doesn't need to be doing these things against the opponent in the clip. Why then would you expect to see those things or be disappointed if you don't see them?

The criticism seems illogical.


The more I’d explain to you; you’ve only put me in the category of contempt, which is not my intensions, but only to share my point of view.

Don't be paranoid. I don't know you from Adam and haven't put you into any category. I am only answering what you type here, some of which doesn't appear to make sense.


I find it odd that no one stands up when “criticism”* comes my way by you and others (not trying to fight), and by finding contempt in me about something you clearly know nothing about (experienced), truly makes your statements very hyperbolic and pragmatic.

I have no idea what you are talkiing about here but I promise to stick up for you if you say something I am in agreement with.


it really shows in your rebuttals (you don’t understand) that makes this whole conversation very odd, which really gravitates to your hyper-individualism of self-gratification and convictions towards me by clearly turning this into something it is not, when I mean no harm to anyone at all.

I can't make gramatical sense of this, sorry.

[Ali. R]

Your punitive disposition of temerity towards me was unnecessary (earlier posts) which shows that you’re prolixious, by working in the form of dilatoriness only to hide behind what you do not understand, to only try to develop a subject and point on something you clearly know nothing about, which is nothing more than superfluous (based on your level of understanding :rolleyes:).

Your attempt to smirch me (earlier posts) only falls within the category of “dangerous but inept”, and I will not be used by you but only prefer to move on from this subject/conversation at hand.


Take care,

[guy b.]

Your punitive disposition of temerity towards me was unnecessary (earlier posts) which shows that you’re prolixious, by working in the form of dilatoriness only to hide behind what you do not understand, to only try to develop a subject and point on something you clearly know nothing about, which is nothing more than superfluous (based on your level of understanding :rolleyes:).

Your attempt to smirch me (earlier posts) only falls within the category of “dangerous but inept”, and I will not be used by you but only prefer to move on from this subject/conversation at hand.


Take care,

I advise you to seek help

[guy b.]

Anyone else seen any nice clips?

[JPinAZ]

I advise you to seek help

lol, agreed. And leave the thesaurus behind while getting the help - he's not impressing anyone.. :rolleyes:

"Your punitive disposition of temerity towards me was unnecessary (earlier posts) which shows that you’re prolixious, by working in the form of dilatoriness only to hide behind what you do not understand, to only try to develop a subject and point on something you clearly know nothing about, which is nothing more than superfluous"

really?? someone is trying way to hard..

[Ali. R]

You guys are dumb is h3ll, that’s nothing more than a twelve grade vocabulary that I’m using, and you both are ignorant saps. :rolleyes::eek:

[guy b.]

You guys are dumb is h3ll, that’s nothing more than a twelve grade vocabulary that I’m using, and you both are ignorant saps. :rolleyes::eek:

Why are you being so rude?

[Ali. R]

Why are you being so rude?

That statement rings truth within saying that “politics has no rules”….. :rolleyes:

[guy b.]

That statement rings truth within saying that “politics has no rules”….. :rolleyes:

Please do seek help. You seem a bit unbalanced.

Has anyone else seen any nice clips?

[JPinAZ]

"You guys are dumb is h3ll, that’s nothing more than a twelve grade vocabulary that I’m using, and you both are ignorant saps"
-Translation: "I used big words to try and show how much smarter I am than you guys." and then negates that by calling people childish names like dumb, ignorant and 'saps'. Are we back in 4th grade now?? :rolleyes:

It's not that no one couldn't understand the words, it's the content & contex no one could make any sense of. That, and it's pretty pathetic when a grown man in his 50's has such insecurities that he needs to bust out a thesaurus in a sad attempt to display superiority on an online forum to people he doesn't even know. F'g sad...

[Ali. R]

[I]
It's not that no one couldn't understand the words, it's the content & contex no one could make any sense of...

I’m sure that you’re the only one that believes that. Now you are truly showing your ignorance; please show us all where I’m not in content with what I’m saying, LMAO.

Those words came right off the top of my head, and if you think that a high school vocabulary shows superiority over yours then it’s true that you are slow, you’ve just proved my case. You only feel that way because I said it.

I challenge you to prove your theory Simple Jack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFpVxkF7wmg).

[leeshing]

I have watched both clips and I see nothing wrong with either they are both training videos and its alway good to see how others train it can even help with evaluating your own training methods always good to see how other approach WC.

[Ali. R]

I have watched both clips and I see nothing wrong with either they are both training videos and its alway good to see how others train it can even help with evaluating your own training methods always good to see how other approach WC.


That’s true and again,,, I see it as okay; which is only my POV and do not feel that my way is better, but only see what I see through my years of development, and I’m sure that there’s a few others here that see it as well (what I see).


Take care,

[Wayfaring]

Conversations around clips on this forum are completely "meh" to me.

Somebody puts up a clip, says it's great. Someone else says it sucks. That goes back and forth until somebody busts out a yomama joke or slam, then people get all hurt and stop talking.

The clips are pretty much always going to be some kind of compliant drill type of clip. This is no different. It's basically a bong lap chi sau drill back and forth with a little bit of free movement switching sides and changing a few angles. Is it a drill? Yes. Is there movement in it? Yes. Would anyone in their right mind describe that as free-form fighting? Highly doubtful. If you behaved like that clip in a real free-form fight would you get your face punched, or one of those hands left out on the bridge dangling, would someone use that to tie up and take you down? Highly likely. Does that clip demonstrate fighting skill? No, it does not.

I would just like to see in ANY compliant clip drills that they get the sense of the difference between live and dead training patterns and a communication of what is being trained incrementally that will allow for greater fighting skills.

[Ali. R]

Only one person on this thread felt that one of those clips sucked.


That was you in the clip doing the bong laap hop partner dance for a minute and a half??
Very 'interesting' to see this clip of the guy that puts down and criticizes just about every non-WSL person on this forum.

And like you said (in some words), to think it’s fighting, you would have to be out of your mind to think so. And no one on this thread suggested or made comments to that fact, and I’m sure that no “your momma jokes” were even mentioned at all.;)

But if we all look very carefully, you’ll see that any jokes that were said or made were all based only in defense of unwarranted attacks that had nothing to do with those clips.

And yes, people stop talking, but started over with only good intentions, until you reminded us all of the ugliness by a “troll” and a person who didn’t like a clip for reasons that had nothing to do with its content and in the way that someone express themselves in writing.

But the statement below would be very nice to see as well; that's very clear and easy to agree with or follow.


I would just like to see in ANY compliant clip drills that they get the sense of the difference between live and dead training patterns and a communication of what is being trained incrementally that will allow for greater fighting skills.


Take care,

[guy b.]

Another nice clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzhD5sP78cc

[Wayfaring]

Another nice clip.

http://www.womenshairstyles.org/hairstyles/short-pixie-haircuts-2012-2.jpg

[JPinAZ]

Another nice clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzhD5sP78cc

It is a cool clip, and he has fast hands for sure, but still, we've seen this type of clip before.

IMO it would be nicer to see him, or someone, or anyone actually applying this against a resisting non-wc guy in something other than just another chi sau drill (which at the end of the day is what this is, all fast hands aside - a drill).
Not saying he can't do it, it would have been an much 'nicer clip' imo vs. the already-seen 100's of times times flip flop hands of semi-cooperative chi sau battling :)

[wingchunIan]

Another nice clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzhD5sP78cc

FWIW I actually quite like this clip. At least the more junior of the two is offering something back. Only thing I don't get is the put your palm on the partners face and push thing that appears to be a signature of the lineage.

[Jansingsang]

It is a cool clip, and he has fast hands for sure, but still, we've seen this type of clip before.

IMO it would be nicer to see him, or someone, or anyone actually applying this against a resisting non-wc guy in something other than just another chi sau drill (which at the end of the day is what this is, all fast hands aside - a drill).
Not saying he can't do it, it would have been an much 'nicer clip' imo vs. the already-seen 100's of times times flip flop hands of semi-cooperative chi sau battling :)

There you go mate you got your wish Jerry is from Wsl lineage and not afraid to use what he has attained on a trip to China enjoy :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clgG8HkJELw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Wayfaring]

There you go mate you got your wish Jerry is from Wsl lineage and not afraid to use what he has attained on a trip to China enjoy :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clgG8HkJELw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Anything specific you are wanting to point out in this 44 minute video? The sparring I saw at 24:00 - 28:00 pretty much looks like two newborn deer fawns on the same day they are born trying to stand up with balance.

[Wayfaring]

FWIW I actually quite like this clip. At least the more junior of the two is offering something back. Only thing I don't get is the put your palm on the partners face and push thing that appears to be a signature of the lineage.

I don't get that either. What I get is the guy doing it thinks it shows dominance and control over space and fighting skill. It doesn't. At best it is training a bad habit. Do you have any idea how easy it is to go from that position of a guy holding your face to taking the back with a RNC? It's an easy two motion combo, and the fight is over.

"Oh, but he won't hold your face in a 'real self-defense' scenario, he will hit you crisply". I tell you if a guy drills that way with a static push to the face, then what's likely to happen in a self-defense scenario is that he will push a punch in the same way he pushed the face. And that presents the same problems, and more.

[k gledhill]

Just a btw a " signature hand in face " is a palm strike/po pai, under control and or thumb in the eye as the hand touches the face.

[Robadob]

FWIW I actually quite like this clip. At least the more junior of the two is offering something back. Only thing I don't get is the put your palm on the partners face and push thing that appears to be a signature of the lineage.

It means that he was able to hit with his arm still bend. Stretching it proves to the striker that he was close enough to strike with power. Secondly, it is a gentle way of showing the opponent that he shouldn't think that he was able to 'take' or ignore the hit and counterstrike. Often, in the emtion of a fight, people tend to overlook that they were hit and still try to hit, although this would not have been possible in a real situation. Having your head pushed back stops you from thinking that you can counterhit. This applies for straight punches aswell as hooks.

[Robadob]

"Oh, but he won't hold your face in a 'real self-defense' scenario, he will hit you crisply". I tell you if a guy drills that way with a static push to the face, then what's likely to happen in a self-defense scenario is that he will push a punch in the same way he pushed the face. And that presents the same problems, and more.

So, if you spar, you strike all the time with all of your power? This is a gentle way of letting the opponent know that he is hit. Hardheaded opponents will receive a more forcefull push. And like Kevin said, it can be just aswell a thumb in the eye or o strike to the throat. Point is, you don't want to get hit.

[Wayfaring]

Just a btw a " signature hand in face " is a palm strike/po pai, under control and or thumb in the eye as the hand touches the face.

None of which changes one iota of what I was talking about regarding strikes.

[k gledhill]

None of which changes one iota of what I was talking about regarding strikes.

I have used in real fights, results produce heavy stun / concussion. A thumb in eye is standard procedure with us. Striking I agree I also coach students not to press the open hand or it tends to stay on as a bad habit. Better to punch and hit again....

[Wayfaring]

It means that he was able to hit with his arm still bend. Stretching it proves to the striker that he was close enough to strike with power. Secondly, it is a gentle way of showing the opponent that he shouldn't think that he was able to 'take' or ignore the hit and counterstrike. Often, in the emtion of a fight, people tend to overlook that they were hit and still try to hit, although this would not have been possible in a real situation. Having your head pushed back stops you from thinking that you can counterhit. This applies for straight punches aswell as hooks.

And this is the #1 misconception I see among WCK practitioners. Complete hogwash. In real live fighting, people 'take' hits and counterstrike all the time.

"A gentle way of showing the opponent that he shouldn't think that he was able to take or ignore the hit and counterstrike."

"Often, in the emotion of a fight, people tend to overlook that they were hit and still try to hit, although this would not have been possible in a real situation."

You seriously can't make stuff like this up. It is comedy gold.

[k gledhill]

And this is the #1 misconception I see among WCK practitioners. Complete hogwash. In real live fighting, people 'take' hits and counterstrike all the time.

"A gentle way of showing the opponent that he shouldn't think that he was able to take or ignore the hit and counterstrike."

"Often, in the emotion of a fight, people tend to overlook that they were hit and still try to hit, although this would not have been possible in a real situation."

You seriously can't make stuff like this up. It is comedy gold.

Trading punches, yes, but we train not to. Notice that Jerry is parrying a counter hit and hitting at the same time. An aspect all the professional boxing coaches here at Gleasons like about vt.

[Jansingsang]

Anything specific you are wanting to point out in this 44 minute video? The sparring I saw at 24:00 - 28:00 pretty much looks like two newborn deer fawns on the same day they are born trying to stand up with balance.

Ok should have been more specific as it's a long a$$ video Jerry & Philip Ng get too work at 23.36 mark Not how ill deal with it but Test what you have all the same

[Robadob]

Oh I agree on taking the hit and counterstrike allright. If a monkey man takes your best hit and still can counterstrike the best option is to run for it:p.
Can you, however tell us how to train for a hit to the throat or a thumb in the eye? Pretty sure the Krav Maga boys are also interested.

[Wayfaring]

I have used in real fights, results produce heavy stun / concussion. A thumb in eye is standard procedure with us. Striking I agree I also coach students not to press the open hand or it tends to stay on as a bad habit. Better to punch and hit again....

And you probably train actually punching people too.

I'm not arguing against the open hand in a bareknuckle fight. For straight ahead punches to the head it's preferable actually. Fists for softer areas of attack.

I'm highlighting the epidemic in WCK training of:

1. Not knowing the difference between live training and dead training, and the whys for each. Thus not practicing skills in anywhere near the format they are useful in real fighting.
2. Stupid compliant drills that have no common-sense place in the development of real fighting skills. This includes doggedly sticking to these for tradition's sake in the face of hard evidence. What is a drill supposed to develop? What do you give up to isolate the drill? How can you integrate that in to being more alive?

I have seen far too many clips of people training chi sau in exactly that compliant face-push method, that when the aggressive nature of a live fight ensues they experience fight or flight, an adrenaline dump, and you see them charging in with their head static in one position push-punching a rapid series of chain punches. They usually get dropped by a hook.

You think what I'm talking about isn't real? Here's an example from Hong Kong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AKFNCIJdvA

and here's a thread of MMA fighters and practitioners talking about it, under the title "Wing Chun vs. Boxing = folded lawnchair (vid):

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=1&thread=2166864&page=1&pc=253

Oh, should I say "nice clip" ?????

[k gledhill]

And you probably train actually punching people too.

I'm not arguing against the open hand in a bareknuckle fight. For straight ahead punches to the head it's preferable actually. Fists for softer areas of attack.

I'm highlighting the epidemic in WCK training of:

1. Not knowing the difference between live training and dead training, and the whys for each. Thus not practicing skills in anywhere near the format they are useful in real fighting.
2. Stupid compliant drills that have no common-sense place in the development of real fighting skills. This includes doggedly sticking to these for tradition's sake in the face of hard evidence. What is a drill supposed to develop? What do you give up to isolate the drill? How can you integrate that in to being more alive?

I have seen far too many clips of people training chi sau in exactly that compliant face-push method, that when the aggressive nature of a live fight ensues they experience fight or flight, an adrenaline dump, and you see them charging in with their head static in one position push-punching a rapid series of chain punches. They usually get dropped by a hook.

You think what I'm talking about isn't real? Here's an example from Honk Kong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AKFNCIJdvA

and here's a thread of MMA fighters and practitioners talking about it, under the title "Wing Chun vs. Boxing = folded lawnchair (vid):

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=1&thread=2166864&page=1&pc=253

Oh, should I say "nice clip" ?????

Don't get me wrong I agree most compliant chi Sao wars are a joke. I see errors in Jerry's work too.
Just don't sweep all vt into one collective pile.

[Wayfaring]

Oh I agree on taking the hit and counterstrike allright. If a monkey man takes your best hit and still can counterstrike the best option is to run for it:p.
Can you, however tell us how to train for a hit to the throat or a thumb in the eye? Pretty sure the Krav Maga boys are also interested.

No offense, but you could take the advise of someone on the internet here, or you could since you live near Amsterdam ask those same questions to a pro Dutch kickboxer or in a gym where they train, who well understand live vs. static.

In a live scenario, landing these strikes is the hard part. The smaller the target area, the MORE what I'm talking about comes into play. Smaller motor movements are notoriously harder to repeat under live stress. Nothing like getting KTFO while you are dancing around setting up an eye gouge strike.

[k gledhill]

No offense, but you could take the advise of someone on the internet here, or you could since you live near Amsterdam ask those same questions to a pro Dutch kickboxer or in a gym where they train, who well understand live vs. static.

In a live scenario, landing these strikes is the hard part. The smaller the target area, the MORE what I'm talking about comes into play. Smaller motor movements are notoriously harder to repeat under live stress. Nothing like getting KTFO while you are dancing around setting up an eye gouge strike.

Ironic , the last guy I eye gouged was the mt coach.

[Wayfaring]

Don't get me wrong I agree most compliant chi Sao wars are a joke. I see errors in Jerry's work too.
Just don't sweep all vt into one collective pile.

It's the clueless that seem to be doing all the collective pile sweeping here by intermixing compliant chi sau wars with fighting skills.

[guy b.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxFsAaC4XK8

Most of the kung fu quest fights are in this clip

[k gledhill]

It's the clueless that seem to be doing all the collective pile sweeping here by intermixing compliant chi sau wars with fighting skills.

Many don't know how to bridge the gap ; ) from hands on drills to hands off fighting and back again. WSL main critique of the vt world was that they overindulge in hand chasing in chi Sao.
A huge majority of vt see chi Sao as the pinnacle of ability : ) the same guys can't fight without arm contact first ; )

[JPinAZ]

There you go mate you got your wish Jerry is from Wsl lineage and not afraid to use what he has attained on a trip to China enjoy :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clgG8HkJELw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I think wayfaring summed it up best in his reply to this. I just don't see this as being too much different, just a little less 'cooperative', but surely not trying to hurt (pressure/resist) each other in any real sense.

[Wayfaring]

Many don't know how to bridge the gap ; ) from hands on drills to hands off fighting and back again. WSL main critique of the vt world was that they overindulge in hand chasing in chi Sao.
A huge majority of vt see chi Sao as the pinnacle of ability : ) the same guys can't fight without arm contact first ; )

I agree with WSL.

IMO chi sau is actually very versatile. To me it is like flow rolling in grappling. The goal is to improve movement, and the % involved is like 25% or so of overall sparring.

If people would just spend an equal amount of time in live sparring with no pre-arranged arm contact first that they do in chi sau, I don't think there would be this epidemic. The methods would lead to the skills - teachers and students keeping it real together. But people don't. Many teachers teach WCK by having students do forms and chi sau only. It's sad. The lineages I've had exposure to have a progression through chi sau (Moy Yat, HFY). But I would like to see a whole lot more correlation to what is going on in a chi sau drill to an aspect of real fighting, and keeping the other isolated aspects of the drill as live or real as possible.

There was one quote on that thread of the boxer knockout of the WCK guy that to me pretty much sums up what I've heard said about WCK by fighters:



wing chun only works in a wing chun match

try to use it in the boxing ring, mma cage, STREET, local gym etc... and you will see this same result 99.99% of the time.

[k gledhill]

I agree with WSL.

IMO chi sau is actually very versatile. To me it is like flow rolling in grappling. The goal is to improve movement, and the % involved is like 25% or so of overall sparring.

If people would just spend an equal amount of time in live sparring with no pre-arranged arm contact first that they do in chi sau, I don't think there would be this epidemic. The methods would lead to the skills - teachers and students keeping it real together. But people don't. Many teachers teach WCK by having students do forms and chi sau only. It's sad. The lineages I've had exposure to have a progression through chi sau (Moy Yat, HFY). But I would like to see a whole lot more correlation to what is going on in a chi sau drill to an aspect of real fighting, and keeping the other isolated aspects of the drill as live or real as possible.

Here is a good example, you think , as many do, that chi Sao is to develop sensitivity in a " flow ". No. WSL also said that " sensitivity " is a by-product of the drills goals not the goal in itself. Iow we contact arms in certain angles that intercept a partners and exchange force to build solid pinching attributes along with coordination, balanced movement an angling under " mutual " terms , meaning NOT A FIGHT.
During chi Sao web add breaks from contact to create holes or retraction of arms to train lat Sao Jik Chun. We also see that the punch is weak unless the structure supports the elbow / fist alignment.
The drills take on a whole other meaning than feeling and flowing endlessly with air tag. My response is brief but you get the idea. Many are pursuing a redundant idea that won function outside the world of the chi Sao warrior.

[Wayfaring]

Here is a good example, you think , as many do, that chi Sao is to develop sensitivity in a " flow ". No. WSL also said that " sensitivity " is a by-product of the drills goals not the goal in itself. Iow we contact arms in certain angles that intercept a partners and exchange force to build solid pinching attributes along with coordination, balanced movement an angling under " mutual " terms , meaning NOT A FIGHT.


Well at least you have a defined goal that is not chi sau for it's own sake. I think I actually said that to me its goal would be to develop movement, which is actually quite different from sensitivity.

What I see in flow rolling in grappling is that over time it helps increase hip movement, which is crucial to increased skill in grappling. In other words, people go from kind of locking down in one position very rigidly in a bull-like fashion to transitioning better between positions.

In my perspective I view chi sau as similar if trained right and balanced.



During chi Sao web add breaks from contact to create holes or retraction of arms to train lat Sao Jik Chun.

Specific scenario and skill drills. That's good. Training with a purpose.



We also see that the punch is weak unless the structure supports the elbow / fist alignment.

I don't personally see value in trying to use chi sau to train punching power. That's more the heavy bag's job to me, or maybe the dummy. But elbow position, angles, foot movement - all yes.



The drills take on a whole other meaning than feeling and flowing endlessly with air tag. My response is brief but you get the idea. Many are pursuing a redundant idea that won function outside the world of the chi Sao warrior.

I think the first step is buy an interval timer. Next, I think chi sau rounds (3-5 min timed) would be a perfect warm-up for sparring. 2 rounds chi sau at the beginning of the sparring section of class for a great light warmup, then into sparring with no pre-arranged beginning. First round light contact but speed, then normal.

Oh and for all you traditional style teachers out there - interval timers are what you use during the sparring section of class. And the sparring section of class is the section of every class where you spar. As you are trying to develop realistic fighting skills which need to be practiced in a live environment more than once a year. If you haven't added this section in to your classes yet, just go ahead and do it. If you keep contact real light during the first month or so all around, then the 120# college professors in your class won't quit, and they will actually learn to have a whole ton of fun at it, bit by bit.

[Robadob]

I agree with WSL.

IMO chi sau is actually very versatile. To me it is like flow rolling in grappling. The goal is to improve movement, and the % involved is like 25% or so of overall sparring.

If people would just spend an equal amount of time in live sparring with no pre-arranged arm contact first that they do in chi sau, I don't think there would be this epidemic. The methods would lead to the skills - teachers and students keeping it real together. But people don't. Many teachers teach WCK by having students do forms and chi sau only. It's sad. The lineages I've had exposure to have a progression through chi sau (Moy Yat, HFY). But I would like to see a whole lot more correlation to what is going on in a chi sau drill to an aspect of real fighting, and keeping the other isolated aspects of the drill as live or real as possible.

There was one quote on that thread of the boxer knockout of the WCK guy that to me pretty much sums up what I've heard said about WCK by fighters:

So, we can all be in agreement here. Chi Sao is not sparring or fighting and I have not claimed it to be either! When I started, training would be half an hour physical training/warming up, one hour of forms and drills training and tha last half hour semi contact sparring with mma type gloves. For everyone, including beginners. Anyone who visited our school was invited to spar with us. One time only, did one of us get suckerpunched by a guy who could not deal with the amount of strikes and blinly struck my friend with a hook. Mind you, my friend was friendly sparring and did not cosider this to be a real fight. The outcome would have been much different!
As for the boxers and kickboxers, yeah we sparred with them also. We were invited to the MP training school to spar with their instructors. Chased them all around. Were considered to be too agressive for them to put it in their training methods. PB and WSL managed to show us their superior skills though.
Nowadays I study PB Lineage with less emphasis on sparring. In a way, I miss the old days, the sparring I enjoyed a lot! Wouldn't advise it though for at least after several years of VT Training. As pointed out, there is a danger of chasing hands and forgetting about body structure entirely.
My final point about the thumbs or throatstriking is this. My height is below average here. In a real fight, chances are my opponent will be larger and possibly stronger and also, maybe even a skilled fighter. It takes a lot to get me to fight, but when it happens I fight to survive and will use all my skills to end it as quickly as I can. This includes eye gouges, knee stomping and if taken down biting a pice out the opponent. :):mad::D

[wingchunIan]

Just a btw a " signature hand in face " is a palm strike/po pai, under control and or thumb in the eye as the hand touches the face.
My issue though kev is that after the initial contact the hand should cycle and do something else whilst the other hand hits not push as a secondary action that is disconnected from the initial move. Also if the practitioner is trying to show that they could extend through the target why the extra step with the push?

[Wayfaring]

So, we can all be in agreement here. Chi Sao is not sparring or fighting and I have not claimed it to be either! When I started, training would be half an hour physical training/warming up, one hour of forms and drills training and tha last half hour semi contact sparring with mma type gloves. For everyone, including beginners. Anyone who visited our school was invited to spar with us. One time only, did one of us get suckerpunched by a guy who could not deal with the amount of strikes and blinly struck my friend with a hook. Mind you, my friend was friendly sparring and did not cosider this to be a real fight. The outcome would have been much different!
As for the boxers and kickboxers, yeah we sparred with them also. We were invited to the MP training school to spar with their instructors. Chased them all around. Were considered to be too agressive for them to put it in their training methods. PB and WSL managed to show us their superior skills though.


Good to see a WCK curriculum with some at least semi contact sparring with gear.



Nowadays I study PB Lineage with less emphasis on sparring. In a way, I miss the old days, the sparring I enjoyed a lot! Wouldn't advise it though for at least after several years of VT Training. As pointed out, there is a danger of chasing hands and forgetting about body structure entirely.


I would advise the exact same type of sparring you describe earlier on either the first day the student enters the school or after an introductory class showing them how to be comfortable sparring. Learning how to stay relaxed in a heightened contact scenario is one of the most valuable lessons you'll learn in any kind of martial art.



My final point about the thumbs or throatstriking is this. My height is below average here. In a real fight, chances are my opponent will be larger and possibly stronger and also, maybe even a skilled fighter. It takes a lot to get me to fight, but when it happens I fight to survive and will use all my skills to end it as quickly as I can. This includes eye gouges, knee stomping and if taken down biting a pice out the opponent. :):mad::D

Of course everybody's mental picture is they will go all out for the rips and hooks in a real fight. And yet evidence shows the delivery system behind the rip and hook you are attempting is more important than the technique itself. For example if I can take you down at will and obtain a mount position, all the rips and hooks in the world aren't going to help. The top guy can do all the same stuff, except with gravity. And punch too. I've seen highly questionable WCK videos attempting to teach this stuff too. For example, biting a guy with a RNC sunk is likely to just get your jaw broke, unless you know enough grappling to put yourself in a solidly defendable position before biting.

[guy b.]

I think wayfaring summed it up best in his reply to this. I just don't see this as being too much different, just a little less 'cooperative', but surely not trying to hurt (pressure/resist) each other in any real sense.

There are some good matches in the kfq series

[Jansingsang]

I think wayfaring summed it up best in his reply to this. I just don't see this as being too much different, just a little less 'cooperative', but surely not trying to hurt (pressure/resist) each other in any real sense.

Look, from how you was reacting in your first post like everything is Complicance Seen it all before Wc knock Blah blah Like i said not the way ill handle them dudes
But they got balls get in there and have a go , Quote Just a little less cooperative :rolleyes:

Just show,s were your at If there Sh!t wasnt funtional they would have had there arsses handed to them Chinese Dont want too ever lose face :( Your entilted to what you Perceived what you saw dude:cool:

[JPinAZ]

Look, from how you was reacting in your first post like everything is Complicance Seen it all before Wc knock Blah blah Like i said not the way ill handle them dudes
But they got balls get in there and have a go , Quote Just a little less cooperative :rolleyes:

Just show,s were your at If there Sh!t wasnt funtional they would have had there arsses handed to them Chinese Dont want too ever lose face :( Your entilted to what you Perceived what you saw dude:cool:

Not really sure what you're gettin at here. Chi sau is a cooperative 'drill'. It has it's place in training to a point, but is way too heavily focused on in a majority of WC lineages IMO And the clip I replied to was of chi sau drilling & the same thing you can find 100's of examples of all over youtube. I didn't say it was bad, but at the end of the day it's still nothing we haven't seen before - not a big deal.

The next you posted showed a bit more live stuff, but IMO still wasn't what I was reffering to in what I would like to see as a 'good clip' fo WC skill. Sorry if you got hurt feelings by it not being what I was talking about - I never asked you to post it :)

But, if you think that second clip of the 'slap boxing match' took 'balls', I feel a bit sorry for your idea of 'what takes balls' ;) It's cool they got together for a light exchange, but IMO that's all it was - a friendly low contact slap fight where neither guy was really trying to hurt the other.

What I would really prefer to see a lot more of in clips is along the lines of what Wayfaring posted up of the WC guy and the taller boxer putting on gloves and mixing it up. Win or lose, to me, THAT is a good clip of someone putting their art to the test against a resistant non-compliant person from different art.

[guy b.]

the clip I replied to was of chi sau drilling & the same thing you can find 100's of examples of all over youtube. I didn't say it was bad, but at the end of the day it's still nothing we haven't seen before - not a big deal.

The next that got posted in reply showed a bit more live stuff, but IMO still wasn't what I was reffering to in what I would like to see as a 'good clip' fo WC skill. And I'm entitled to my opinion, just like you are.
But if you think that second clip you posted of the 'slap boxing match' took 'balls', I feel a bit sorry for your idea of 'what takes balls' ;) IMO, that was just a friendly low contact slap fight where neither guy was really trying to hurt the other.

This is how all Chinese martial arts compare skills. They are bare fisted hitting arts for the most part and this is what has evolved as the level below an actual fight. Many of the kfq clips are not cooperative. There are some genuine misunderstandings and aggression with the hsing yi guys for example. But nobody steps outside the conventions of CMA comparison, because then it would be an actual fight. If you appreciate what it is then you can get plenty from it.

[guy b.]

This clip contains most of the skill comparisons from the series

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxFsAaC4XK8

[JPinAZ]

This clip contains most of the skill comparisons from the series

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxFsAaC4XK8

Not sure why this is here again - you've already posted this. Do you get royalties from the channel by upping the view count or something?

[k gledhill]

Well at least you have a defined goal that is not chi sau for it's own sake. I think I actually said that to me its goal would be to develop movement, which is actually quite different from sensitivity.

What I see in flow rolling in grappling is that over time it helps increase hip movement, which is crucial to increased skill in grappling. In other words, people go from kind of locking down in one position very rigidly in a bull-like fashion to transitioning better between positions.

In my perspective I view chi sau as similar if trained right and balanced.


Specific scenario and skill drills. That's good. Training with a purpose.


I don't personally see value in trying to use chi sau to train punching power. That's more the heavy bag's job to me, or maybe the dummy. But elbow position, angles, foot movement - all yes.



I think the first step is buy an interval timer. Next, I think chi sau rounds (3-5 min timed) would be a perfect warm-up for sparring. 2 rounds chi sau at the beginning of the sparring section of class for a great light warmup, then into sparring with no pre-arranged beginning. First round light contact but speed, then normal.

Oh and for all you traditional style teachers out there - interval timers are what you use during the sparring section of class. And the sparring section of class is the section of every class where you spar. As you are trying to develop realistic fighting skills which need to be practiced in a live environment more than once a year. If you haven't added this section in to your classes yet, just go ahead and do it. If you keep contact real light during the first month or so all around, then the 120# college professors in your class won't quit, and they will actually learn to have a whole ton of fun at it, bit by bit.


Making chi Sao a grappling drill is incorrect. The arm contact is to coordinate arm actions without retraction prior to or during recycling striking attacks. If we make errors like shoulder rotation or retracting arms without certain techniques allowing " leaking attacks. "
I can see the obvious correlation to using the chi Sao as a grappling base but that's more like push hand drills than isolation of Lin sil di da, lat Sao Jik Chun.

[guy b.]

Not sure why this is here again - you've already posted this. Do you get royalties from the channel by upping the view count or something?

No, it's just an easy clip to see the comparing without all the training bits. Simpler to pick out the parts people have issue with than the longer clip

[Wayfaring]

Making chi Sao a grappling drill is incorrect. The arm contact is to coordinate arm actions without retraction prior to or during recycling striking attacks. If we make errors like shoulder rotation or retracting arms without certain techniques allowing " leaking attacks. "
I can see the obvious correlation to using the chi Sao as a grappling base but that's more like push hand drills than isolation of Lin sil di da, lat Sao Jik Chun.

No, I don't see it as a direct correlation. Only in a very general sense to help increase necessary mobility for fighting scenarios. It is a true "like this" in a drill sense, not in the details of what you are trying to accomplish.

[Paddington]

I agree with WSL.
[...]
If people would just spend an equal amount of time in live sparring with no pre-arranged arm contact first that they do in chi sau, I don't think there would be this epidemic.
[...]


Just to ask for some clarification on whether doing chi sau (or utilizing it) the way I am about to describe would help to mitigate against, to whatever extent, the cause of this epidemic (?).

When trying to bridge the differences between gor sau and a fight we (my training partners and I) sometimes begin without a contact, move in and bridge then roll through several positions and shapes before working into a po pai or kick or any technique that would allow us to create a gap again. Sometimes the gap can be formed passively by just breaking off at an angle.

Following the gap we bridge it again with attacks and shapes and go through another set of positions and shapes until one is in a position to create another gap to be bridged and so on. With each iteration the intensity can go up or down.

Of course it is very easy to slip into other systems, such as boxing, muay thai etc. and I've sometimes found it hard to maintain a wing chun attitude in my techniques, when moving closer to a full on fight (intensity?).

Interested in your thoughts here.


[...] Also if the practitioner is trying to show that they could extend through the target why the extra step with the push?

Ian, I know your question is out of context to what I say above but it does provide an answer in another context at least; here to recreate a gap to be bridged as a part of this training exercise?

[k gledhill]

My issue though kev is that after the initial contact the hand should cycle and do something else whilst the other hand hits not push as a secondary action that is disconnected from the initial move. Also if the practitioner is trying to show that they could extend through the target why the extra step with the push?

If one is near a wall the drive could smash the head into a solid sharp surface. Keeping the head turned can also make the opponent turn to make a better position for us.
As a thumb gouge the hand stays .... And grabs the ear at the same time ; )

[wingchunIan]

If one is near a wall the drive could smash the head into a solid sharp surface. Keeping the head turned can also make the opponent turn to make a better position for us.
As a thumb gouge the hand stays .... And grabs the ear at the same time ; )

All reasonable points except that in the vids the head is almost never turned as the force goes straight back and the what you are now describing is a deliberate push whereas the original justification is that it was somehow showing that the practitioner had the ability to extend their arm upon contact.
Anyway, I'm going to let it go now as it was only an observation in the first place.

[Wayfaring]

If one is near a wall the drive could smash the head into a solid sharp surface. Keeping the head turned can also make the opponent turn to make a better position for us.
As a thumb gouge the hand stays .... And grabs the ear at the same time ; )

Leaving a hand extended like that is not a good idea. If you leave it out it can be attacked. A decent college wrestler will strip the hand with a cross grip to a Russian 2 on 1. Even with an eye gouge. They usually chain that into a fireman's carry takedown. I take the back and go straight for the neck - RNC done. If you are or have been a competitive wrestler at the college level, or are a BJJ purple or above, you can probably stop this. If not, it's unlikely you can. A decent judo competitor will take that extended arm and throw you on your head with it as a lever. Then armbar you. I roll with guys like that daily. If you are pushing into them harder you can easily be thrown with a lateral drop in wrestling or a seio nage in judo. Also a problem with an extended arm is someone changing levels on you. You have to retract the arm to defend, are a step behind, and that's all it takes for someone to get in on your hips and take you down.

[Graham H]

Leaving a hand extended like that is not a good idea. If you leave it out it can be attacked. A decent college wrestler will strip the hand with a cross grip to a Russian 2 on 1. Even with an eye gouge. They usually chain that into a fireman's carry takedown. I take the back and go straight for the neck - RNC done. If you are or have been a competitive wrestler at the college level, or are a BJJ purple or above, you can probably stop this. If not, it's unlikely you can. A decent judo competitor will take that extended arm and throw you on your head with it as a lever. Then armbar you. I roll with guys like that daily. If you are pushing into them harder you can easily be thrown with a lateral drop in wrestling or a seio nage in judo. Also a problem with an extended arm is someone changing levels on you. You have to retract the arm to defend, are a step behind, and that's all it takes for someone to get in on your hips and take you down.

When did you fight a decent college wrestler or Judo player last? Maybe you are in constant preperation for the day you may meet another capable Martial Artist in a street fight eh? You seem to know a lot as it seems Ian does as well. I don't think so :rolleyes:

I find it bizarre that some of you guys like to analyze what would work or wouldn't work against another trained fighter. More that that you seem to know what would or would not happen without even meeting the opponent. You think you have all the answers? You are living in dream land.

It is impossible to pit one fighting system against another across the WWW!! It's impossible to conclude what actions would work in a proper fight until it happens or has happened. You want to try something and prove that this controlling action or palm strike or whatever works then go try and just because you (gen) cannot it doesn't mean that somebody else cannot.


The two people fighting decide the outcome of a fight not Ving Tsun, MMA, Muay Thai, Karate, BJJ or anything! Maybe you guys should think about that before you say what works!

In real life you probably won't know if your opponent is a MA or not and they won't know you practice Wing Chun.

......you may afterwards though.

I have used this action you are gabbling about on a few occasions. In fact it has decided the fight in one instance without any proper punches being thrown. These guys weren't Martial Artists (I don't) think but it worked. Had they been and threw something back.............................................. ....how the f**k do I know what may have happened. Did it work? Yes! Does it work? Who? Why? What? When?............................................. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::confused:

[Wayfaring]

Just to ask for some clarification on whether doing chi sau (or utilizing it) the way I am about to describe would help to mitigate against, to whatever extent, the cause of this epidemic (?).

When trying to bridge the differences between gor sau and a fight we (my training partners and I) sometimes begin without a contact, move in and bridge then roll through several positions and shapes before working into a po pai or kick or any technique that would allow us to create a gap again. Sometimes the gap can be formed passively by just breaking off at an angle.


You have to start somewhere. You have identified an issue - unnatural preset contact, and started to work around it into where you are comfortable. That's how anyone has to start.



Following the gap we bridge it again with attacks and shapes and go through another set of positions and shapes until one is in a position to create another gap to be bridged and so on. With each iteration the intensity can go up or down.


Sure it's a logical progression. Scaled intensity is a good thing - that will over time allow you to relax more with contact, which leads to more fluid footwork and movement and the ability to turn energy on and off instead of being way too tense and all locked up.

Work against different types of entries and attacks - that way you are stress testing your movement and attacks and shapes. Try just playing around - some grappling entries, some boxing entries, some kickboxing. Defend with your structure and science. Even if what you are modeling in a boxer or grappler isn't great, it's a start to begin to examine the types of realistic entries you will come up against. In my experience the more you have drilled against something, the more time slows down in a realistic environment and you seem like you have plenty of time to deal with it rather than being run over.



Of course it is very easy to slip into other systems, such as boxing, muay thai etc. and I've sometimes found it hard to maintain a wing chun attitude in my techniques, when moving closer to a full on fight (intensity?).

Interested in your thoughts here.


I can only relate from my journey here. Sifu Gee talks about having a "Wing Chun identity". To me that is the part of the art that transcends form. It's not just tan, bong, fuk, but more the concept - like SNT for example. In a fight that is about me maintaining my fundamentals - structure, balance, alignment, centerline. That's always the primary or little idea - yourself. Then next is the connection to the opponent. You start with your 1-2-3s. The CK side is about opening up angles when 2 opponents have good structure. That's a lot of the flanking, turning, 45 degree angle stuff. Entry points and sinking a bridge. BJ recovery and offense with some more weapons. I have tons still to learn on many of these fronts, but those are my thoughts.

As far as shapes I have a few other striking tools, and the clinch and grappling game as well. So that is different, but to me none of those other tools I let affect the fundamentals. On the ground fundamentals change. Some apply universally. That's a huge topic.

I'm sure my views will change the more I learn. That's just where I'm at now.

[Wayfaring]

When did you fight a decent college wrestler or Judo player last? Maybe you are in constant preperation for the day you may meet another capable Martial Artist in a street fight eh? You seem to know a lot as it seems Ian does as well. I don't think so :rolleyes:


The gym I train at has an Olympic bronze Greco medalist, who I roll with 2x per week. There are 4-5 others who were NCAA Div 2 - 3 national level competitors, as well as 2 Olympic alternates. There also is an Olympic Training Center in my town, and many judo players that have competed on the national and international scene train all over here. The only ones consistent there at my gym are girls. I do train with them also. The Pro MMA fighters have various regional belts also, so are pretty skilled. The top pros are brown belts in BJJ as well as very adept wrestlers and strikers. Only 1 UFC guy so far - no love. I spar with them and the amateurs.

How about you, Graham? What's your level of competition that you train with? Is that clip up with you representative of your average competition?

I train martial arts for a hobby and for health, not for constant preparation for the day I meet a competent street fighter. Although because of my hobby, I do seem to know most of the ones around locally. I guess that reduces the chance of having to fight them in a bar out somewhere. :D

Look, we just like to scrap. It's fun. It relieves stress. It keeps up my sense of humor. Some of the guys are trying to make a living off of it, so they're real serious about conditioning, diet, and they come after you harder sparring so they can be prepared. The amateurs and hobbyists like me, we like to train with the best we can find - it's fun. Some people don't. Some people have to be the biggest fish in a very little pond.



I find it bizarre that some of you guys like to analyze what would work or wouldn't work against another trained fighter. More that that you seem to know what would or would not happen without even meeting the opponent. You think you have all the answers? You are living in dream land.


Sometime I post up sequences. Typically they are ones I've seen work live. Of course the live energy in an exchange completely dictates which way those sequence chains go.
I post them up to show guys who may not have had the exposure to that. Like you it sounds like.



It is impossible to pit one fighting system against another across the WWW!! It's impossible to conclude what actions would work in a proper fight until it happens or has happened. You want to try something and prove that this controlling action or palm strike or whatever works then go try and just because you (gen) cannot it doesn't mean that somebody else cannot.


Disagree. There are universal fundamentals that pertain to fighting. Like keep your hands up and your upper gate protected, for example. That one in particular I saw violated all over the place in the kf exchange video for example - just look at the first match.

Yes different people can make things work against poor competition. These fundamentals I'm speaking of though are what will kill you when you're working with higher level competition. I guess you haven't experienced that.



The two people fighting decide the outcome of a fight not Ving Tsun, MMA, Muay Thai, Karate, BJJ or anything! Maybe you guys should think about that before you say what works!


Well sure there are outliers. For example, my wrestler friend I train with. He can probably keep his arm extended all he wants and I'm not throwing him anywhere.

When I say what works it's based upon sparring it, seeing it in action. There ARE universal fundamentals and principles for fighting. It's not just about who is the most yoked mofo in the gym.



In real life you probably won't know if your opponent is a MA or not and they won't know you practice Wing Chun.

......you may afterwards though.


And hopefully that's not because they are cluelessly delusional and try to chi sau with you before you knock them out. At least that's my goal. It's an uphill battle though.

[Jansingsang]

Not really sure what you're gettin at here. Chi sau is a cooperative 'drill'. It has it's place in training to a point, but is way too heavily focused on in a majority of WC lineages IMO And the clip I replied to was of chi sau drilling & the same thing you can find 100's of examples of all over youtube. I didn't say it was bad, but at the end of the day it's still nothing we haven't seen before - not a big deal.

The next you posted showed a bit more live stuff, but IMO still wasn't what I was reffering to in what I would like to see as a 'good clip' fo WC skill. Sorry if you got hurt feelings by it not being what I was talking about - I never asked you to post it :)

But, if you think that second clip of the 'slap boxing match' took 'balls', I feel a bit sorry for your idea of 'what takes balls' ;) It's cool they got together for a light exchange, but IMO that's all it was - a friendly low contact slap fight where neither guy was really trying to hurt the other.

What I would really prefer to see a lot more of in clips is along the lines of what Wayfaring posted up of the WC guy and the taller boxer putting on gloves and mixing it up. Win or lose, to me, THAT is a good clip of someone putting their art to the test against a resistant non-compliant person from different art.

Listen good all i was illustrating was the bloke just dosn't focus on the Chi sau platform which is just a drill to enhance certain attributes Which a lot of people are confused about Some on ere

Talking about help grappling etc .. Wow and let's get down with sparring . Before even learning how to use it I hear the story's out there New student put the gloves on and watch them get there teeth knocked out :D

Guy's in the clip are lame slappy boxing agreed . Balls ..Yes because Jerry & Philip didnt know what they were gonna face VT Skill take s time One must train inside the Chi sao bubble and outside it .Bridgeing skill development & patence is paramount which a lot of people lack in this Mc Dojo I want it now society :rolleyes:

[Wayfaring]

Talking about help grappling etc .. Wow and let's get down with sparring . Before even learning how to use it I hear the story's out there New student put the gloves on and watch them get there teeth knock out :D


Poor supervision and instruction. First, get a fitted mouth guard and your teeth won't be knocked out. Next, have a competent instructor overseeing sparring. I see kids, girls, older people doing this all the time at varying levels of skill having a lot of fun.

[Jansingsang]

Poor supervision and instruction. First, get a fitted mouth guard and your teeth won't be knocked out. Next, have a competent instructor overseeing sparring. I see kids, girls, older people doing this all the time at varying levels of skill having a lot of fun.

There's a time and place for increased pressure testing ..And yes good supervision is a must but like ive said before makes no sence if you don't know what to do :confused: just counter productive Imho each too there own method :)

[BPWT]

I must be drunk today, or something. I find myself agreeing with some of what Kevin, Wayfaring and Graham are saying.

Funky Friday.

[Paddington]

You have to start somewhere. You have identified an issue - unnatural preset contact, and started to work around it into where you are comfortable. That's how anyone has to start.
[...]
I'm sure my views will change the more I learn. That's just where I'm at now.

Thanks for your response, seems we are on the same page. That said I am not suggesting what I described is the only way to utilize chi sau. I also enjoy chi sau for just chi sau sake and the emphasis on sensitivity and all that jazz!

[BPWT]

@Wayfaring.

Training with girls, judo guys, throws and takedowns, the street.

This is for you. So wrong... yet so right!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWCFaKXJ7Aw

[wingchunIan]

Ian this was something I noticed when looking from my previous lineage perspective!

Kev is correct of course in his explanation, and I have used this technique, as is, myself, but the use of this palm push also represents the effect of a more impactful strike. The opponent moving backwards from the impact of a head shot and the pursuit and re entry of our continued attack.

When coming to PBVT I found there were certain techniques, in chi sao, that were awkward and didnt seem to make sense due to my previous "glue-the-enemy" approach.
An example.. ( if I can try to explain in words), would be,...outside pak - inside strike, (left pak, right palm strike) followed by outside bong-lap-strike ( right bong ).... Without causing some impact on the recipient with the inside palm, you would have to pull out your striking hand from its inside position, to re engage his left hand on the outside position with your bong. It just doesnt feel right and doesnt work.
However, drive him back a little with the strike and the outside bong to his left hand makes sense, and you can being to train good methods of pursuit and re alignment, re egagement, etc.

Hope that makes some kind of sense? :)

Thanks mate, interesting perspective.

[wingchunIan]

When did you fight a decent college wrestler or Judo player last? Maybe you are in constant preperation for the day you may meet another capable Martial Artist in a street fight eh? You seem to know a lot as it seems Ian does as well. I don't think so :rolleyes:

I find it bizarre that some of you guys like to analyze what would work or wouldn't work against another trained fighter. More that that you seem to know what would or would not happen without even meeting the opponent. You think you have all the answers? You are living in dream land.

It is impossible to pit one fighting system against another across the WWW!! It's impossible to conclude what actions would work in a proper fight until it happens or has happened. You want to try something and prove that this controlling action or palm strike or whatever works then go try and just because you (gen) cannot it doesn't mean that somebody else cannot.


The two people fighting decide the outcome of a fight not Ving Tsun, MMA, Muay Thai, Karate, BJJ or anything! Maybe you guys should think about that before you say what works!

In real life you probably won't know if your opponent is a MA or not and they won't know you practice Wing Chun.

......you may afterwards though.

I have used this action you are gabbling about on a few occasions. In fact it has decided the fight in one instance without any proper punches being thrown. These guys weren't Martial Artists (I don't) think but it worked. Had they been and threw something back.............................................. ....how the f**k do I know what may have happened. Did it work? Yes! Does it work? Who? Why? What? When?............................................. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::confused:
FFS put your rattle back in your pram. I questioned an element of what was shown in the clip. An explanation was offered which didn't stack up with what was happening in the clip, keV offered a different explanation which I said in my post I thought was reasonable but again didn't necessarily explain the clip. TRay then offered a third explanation. All sensible and adult discussion. Then you join in and throw a tantrum:(. Take a chill pill, if you don't like people asking questions, challenging what is put forward or presenting an alternative POV maybe you should avoid forums, it is after all what they are for:rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

Ian this was something I noticed when looking from my previous lineage perspective!

Kev is correct of course in his explanation, and I have used this technique, as is, myself, but the use of this palm push also represents the effect of a more impactful strike. The opponent moving backwards from the impact of a head shot and the pursuit and re entry of our continued attack.

When coming to PBVT I found there were certain techniques, in chi sao, that were awkward and didnt seem to make sense due to my previous "glue-the-enemy" approach.
An example.. ( if I can try to explain in words), would be,...outside pak - inside strike, (left pak, right palm strike) followed by outside bong-lap-strike ( right bong ).... Without causing some impact on the recipient with the inside palm, you would have to pull out your striking hand from its inside position, to re engage his left hand on the outside position with your bong. It just doesnt feel right and doesnt work.
However, drive him back a little with the strike and the outside bong to his left hand makes sense, and you can being to train good methods of pursuit and re alignment, re egagement, etc.

Hope that makes some kind of sense? :)

Makes sense to me, the attempts to remove the hand from face also open attacks. Many variables but easy to armchair critique as 3rd party ; )

[JPinAZ]

FFS put your rattle back in your pram. I questioned an element of what was shown in the clip. An explanation was offered which didn't stack up with what was happening in the clip, keV offered a different explanation which I said in my post I thought was reasonable but again didn't necessarily explain the clip. TRay then offered a third explanation. All sensible and adult discussion. Then you join in and throw a tantrum:(. Take a chill pill, if you don't like people asking questions, challenging what is put forward or presenting an alternative POV maybe you should avoid forums, it is after all what they are for:rolleyes:

Just GH being GH by desperately crying for attention. The troll is best ignored IMO

[tc101]

When did you fight a decent college wrestler or Judo player last? Maybe you are in constant preperation for the day you may meet another capable Martial Artist in a street fight eh? You seem to know a lot as it seems Ian does as well. I don't think so :rolleyes:


Let me ask you, are you only preparing to fight some untrained clueless guy?



I find it bizarre that some of you guys like to analyze what would work or wouldn't work against another trained fighter. More that that you seem to know what would or would not happen without even meeting the opponent. You think you have all the answers? You are living in dream land.


I do not see it as having all the answers but looking at things from the point of view as what sorts of things are high percentage and what things are mistakes which create opportunities for your opponent. Does it make sense to you that if something is high percentage against skilled people then it will be even higher percentage against untrained people? Does it make sense to you that what may work against an untrained person may not work at all against someone who is trained?



It is impossible to pit one fighting system against another across the WWW!! It's impossible to conclude what actions would work in a proper fight until it happens or has happened. You want to try something and prove that this controlling action or palm strike or whatever works then go try and just because you (gen) cannot it doesn't mean that somebody else cannot.


That is true but there are many things that create opportunities for the opponent.



The two people fighting decide the outcome of a fight not Ving Tsun, MMA, Muay Thai, Karate, BJJ or anything! Maybe you guys should think about that before you say what works!


Person and training go hand iin hand. The training is supposed to make the person better.



In real life you probably won't know if your opponent is a MA or not and they won't know you practice Wing Chun.

......you may afterwards though.


That is a very good point and would suggest that the smart way is to assume all your opponents are skilled and act accordingly.



I have used this action you are gabbling about on a few occasions. In fact it has decided the fight in one instance without any proper punches being thrown. These guys weren't Martial Artists (I don't) think but it worked. Had they been and threw something back.............................................. ....how the f**k do I know what may have happened. Did it work? Yes! Does it work? Who? Why? What? When?............................................. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::confused:

If it works on one occassion against someone who is unskilled, does this make it a good money move?

[Wayfaring]

Makes sense to me, the attempts to remove the hand from face also open attacks. Many variables but easy to armchair critique as 3rd party ; )

Coming at this from a different way, by leaving your hand out there you are now entering into clinch range and tactics. And yet you have little to no training in the clinch to ground area, other than the bridge skills you have built up in WCK. Maybe your bridge skills are enough to keep anyone from tying up with you. Likely they are not. This likelihood gets lower as the ground skills of the opponent get higher.

Executing on any technique opens up the opportunity for an opposing technique. This is really not about many variables, it's about percentages.

My advice for close range strikers who want to stay in the pocket and strike (like WCK does as an art) is to strike and retract your striking implement afterwards to a ready position, rather than leaving it out there for someone to hang on. This is so "fighting 101" that I really marvel at the cluelessness of people not being able to comprehend it.

[Wayfaring]

@Wayfaring.

Training with girls, judo guys, throws and takedowns, the street.

This is for you. So wrong... yet so right!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWCFaKXJ7Aw

Very nice. She can throw me anytime. :cool:

[k gledhill]

Coming at this from a different way, by leaving your hand out there you are now entering into clinch range and tactics. And yet you have little to no training in the clinch to ground area, other than the bridge skills you have built up in WCK. Maybe your bridge skills are enough to keep anyone from tying up with you. Likely they are not. This likelihood gets lower as the ground skills of the opponent get higher.

Executing on any technique opens up the opportunity for an opposing technique. This is really not about many variables, it's about percentages.

My advice for close range strikers who want to stay in the pocket and strike (like WCK does as an art) is to strike and retract your striking implement afterwards to a ready position, rather than leaving it out there for someone to hang on. This is so "fighting 101" that I really marvel at the cluelessness of people not being able to comprehend it.

Sure, agree. We recycle to strike leaving arms outstretched invites all kinds of responses. How we retract is another thread. Lat Sao Jik Chun ; )

[guy b.]

The gym I train at has an Olympic bronze Greco medalist, who I roll with 2x per week. There are 4-5 others who were NCAA Div 2 - 3 national level competitors, as well as 2 Olympic alternates. There also is an Olympic Training Center in my town, and many judo players that have competed on the national and international scene train all over here. The only ones consistent there at my gym are girls. I do train with them also. The Pro MMA fighters have various regional belts also, so are pretty skilled. The top pros are brown belts in BJJ as well as very adept wrestlers and strikers. Only 1 UFC guy so far - no love. I spar with them and the amateurs.

How about you, Graham? What's your level of competition that you train with? Is that clip up with you representative of your average competition?

I train martial arts for a hobby and for health, not for constant preparation for the day I meet a competent street fighter. Although because of my hobby, I do seem to know most of the ones around locally. I guess that reduces the chance of having to fight them in a bar out somewhere. :D

Look, we just like to scrap. It's fun. It relieves stress. It keeps up my sense of humor. Some of the guys are trying to make a living off of it, so they're real serious about conditioning, diet, and they come after you harder sparring so they can be prepared. The amateurs and hobbyists like me, we like to train with the best we can find - it's fun. Some people don't. Some people have to be the biggest fish in a very little pond.



Sometime I post up sequences. Typically they are ones I've seen work live. Of course the live energy in an exchange completely dictates which way those sequence chains go.
I post them up to show guys who may not have had the exposure to that. Like you it sounds like.



Disagree. There are universal fundamentals that pertain to fighting. Like keep your hands up and your upper gate protected, for example. That one in particular I saw violated all over the place in the kf exchange video for example - just look at the first match.

Yes different people can make things work against poor competition. These fundamentals I'm speaking of though are what will kill you when you're working with higher level competition. I guess you haven't experienced that.



Well sure there are outliers. For example, my wrestler friend I train with. He can probably keep his arm extended all he wants and I'm not throwing him anywhere.

When I say what works it's based upon sparring it, seeing it in action. There ARE universal fundamentals and principles for fighting. It's not just about who is the most yoked mofo in the gym.



And hopefully that's not because they are cluelessly delusional and try to chi sau with you before you knock them out. At least that's my goal. It's an uphill battle though.

zzzz

GrahamH is correct. Who demonstrates the responses of a trained grappler in your typical violent confrontation? The chances of running into this are miniscule and training for it is virtually insane.

There isn't anything wrong with palm striking the face, pushing the face into something, pushing and hitting with the other hand or pushing and controlling the head to control the body if context is suitable.

Worrying about being thrown or arm dragged while doing this is akin to worring about someone with boxing experience being kneed in the face by a world class MT exponent if they utilise the boxing skills of ducking and weaving punches in real life. Every method of fighting has a "what if" trump card that can be pulled.

What if the wrestler gets punched in the face or submitted? What if the boxer gets kneed or thrown or footswept? What if the bjj guy gets stomped on by a group of friends or stabbed? What if the guy that trains with gloves breaks his hand on a hard head or finds that the typical exchanges he trains with gloves on are not remotely similar to those that occur without? What if the wing chun guy gets arm dragged and choked unconscious when he pushes the face of the local grappling champ? What if the sky falls down?

If you don't think wing chun has any utility in a fight then why even talk about it? Just go and do whatever makes you happy. You aren't criticizing from the point of view of wing chun. Should I go onto a boxing forum and deride them for not practicing iron palm or learning how to deal with kicks and knees? Don't be stupid.

[guy b.]

In effect Wayfaring you are like a guy that trains bjj but constantly harps on to other practitioners about the potential deficiencies of bjj and the possible worst-case "what if" scenarios possible in its use as a survival aid on the streets.

You should just do something that is not wing chun, you would be happier

[Wayfaring]

If you don't think wing chun has any utility in a fight then why even talk about it? Just go and do whatever makes you happy. You aren't criticizing from the point of view of wing chun. Should I go onto a boxing forum and deride them for not practicing iron palm or learning how to deal with kicks and knees? Don't be stupid.

U sound mad here.

[Wayfaring]

In effect Wayfaring you are like a guy that trains bjj but constantly harps on to other practitioners about the potential deficiencies of bjj and the possible worst-case "what if" scenarios possible in its use as a survival aid on the streets.

You should just do something that is not wing chun, you would be happier

I'm not sure why your knickers are so twisted up here.

Wait you're the guy who posts up all the compliant chi sau stuff and says "nice clip" all the time, right? So you aren't really interested in the realistic application of WCK it seems. That's fine. There are whole groups dedicated to LARPing, too. With the chain mail and swords and all. The difference with them is they don't think compliant chi sau is a real fight. But by all means live on in your little bubble there.

I actually do train BJJ along with many other members of this forum - especially the ones with fighting experience. Why do I do this? Oh, because it makes me happy, maybe?

Wait you're also the guy who is also telling people to 'seek help'? Maybe take your own advice?

Oh, BTW I loved your comment on how my criticism wasn't coming from a perspective of wing chun. That's precisely your problem. You never test your wing chun outside of wing chun.

[JPinAZ]

I'm not sure why your knickers are so twisted up here.

Wait you're the guy who posts up all the compliant chi sau stuff and says "nice clip" all the time, right? So you aren't really interested in the realistic application of WCK it seems. That's fine. There are whole groups dedicated to LARPing, too. With the chain mail and swords and all. The difference with them is they don't think compliant chi sau is a real fight. But by all means live on in your little bubble there.

I actually do train BJJ along with many other members of this forum - especially the ones with fighting experience. Why do I do this? Oh, because it makes me happy, maybe?

Wait you're also the guy who is also telling people to 'seek help'? Maybe take your own advice?

Oh, BTW I loved your comment on how my criticism wasn't coming from a perspective of wing chun. That's precisely your problem. You never test your wing chun outside of wing chun.

Quoted for the win :)

Guy b is obviously someone that doesn't get out in the real world much or test his art against live non-WC opponents, or he wouldn't speak the rubbish he does. I'm suspecting he's just another troll... and an obviously angry one at that

[anerlich]

In effect Wayfaring you are like a guy that trains bjj but constantly harps on to other practitioners about the potential deficiencies of bjj and the possible worst-case "what if" scenarios possible in its use as a survival aid on the streets.

Not sure that's necessarily a bad thing. You could perhaps annoy people if you kept on and on and on about it ... and if, like you, they were really thin skinned.:p


Who demonstrates the responses of a trained grappler in your typical violent confrontation?

Um, anyone who did high school wrestling or judo? Very few of those, esp. in the US.

[guy b.]

I'm not sure why your knickers are so twisted up here.

Wait you're the guy who posts up all the compliant chi sau stuff and says "nice clip" all the time, right? So you aren't really interested in the realistic application of WCK it seems. That's fine. There are whole groups dedicated to LARPing, too. With the chain mail and swords and all. The difference with them is they don't think compliant chi sau is a real fight. But by all means live on in your little bubble there.

I actually do train BJJ along with many other members of this forum - especially the ones with fighting experience. Why do I do this? Oh, because it makes me happy, maybe?

Wait you're also the guy who is also telling people to 'seek help'? Maybe take your own advice?

Oh, BTW I loved your comment on how my criticism wasn't coming from a perspective of wing chun. That's precisely your problem. You never test your wing chun outside of wing chun.

If I was talking to some bjj enthusiasts about bjj and posted a clip of someone demonstrating bjj skills I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to point out the *******ishness of someone who, instead of talking about the bjj in the bjj clip, continually insisted on pointing out the flaws inherent in the whole bjj approach. In every single post.

The issue seems to be that you are not confident that wing chun is even worth doing, that it is useful in fighting. You demonstrate this by going on and on about how unreralistic the the available clips of wing chun training are, over and over again. When in fact this is all that wing chun training is (this is what wing chun people do). I am posting clips that are nice from the point of view of wing chun. That is all. Take it or leave it.

[Graham H]

FFS put your rattle back in your pram. I questioned an element of what was shown in the clip. An explanation was offered which didn't stack up with what was happening in the clip, keV offered a different explanation which I said in my post I thought was reasonable but again didn't necessarily explain the clip. TRay then offered a third explanation. All sensible and adult discussion. Then you join in and throw a tantrum:(. Take a chill pill, if you don't like people asking questions, challenging what is put forward or presenting an alternative POV maybe you should avoid forums, it is after all what they are for:rolleyes:

I love you Ip Chun Ian xxx

[Graham H]

Just GH being GH by desperately crying for attention. The troll is best ignored IMO

Yes that's what I do! I troll the internet forums because I crave attention from other grown men who like to talk complete rubbish about Wing Chun like your good sefl JonathonPin****fromArizona! lol

[Graham H]

zzzz

GrahamH is correct.

As long as certain people on this forum are mostly disagreeing with me I know I am on the right track. :D

[JPinAZ]

The issue seems to be that you are not confident that wing chun is even worth doing, that it is useful in fighting. You demonstrate this by going on and on about how unreralistic the the available clips of wing chun training are, over and over again. When in fact this is all that wing chun training is (this is what wing chun people do). I am posting clips that are nice from the point of view of wing chun. That is all. Take it or leave it.

That's pretty scary if you believe clips of chi sau and bong lap drills are representitive of 'all that WC training is' or 'what WC people do'. :eek: This is a very narrow view of WC and IMO is part of the point wayfaring is trying to make.

While all training has it's place, clips of in-school chi sau battles are not fighting and are not representitive of 'all wing chun training' (at least not as I know it). From my experience, they represent just a small portion of the training and focus on a very short and specific timeframe that doesn't happen for very long, an a lot of times not at all, in a fight (squared up, voth hands in contact at the wrist at 'chi sau' range).

the typically seen 2-hands connected, Taan/bong/fook chi sau drilling is such a minor focus in my WC training. Sure, once in a while it's good to touch on this aspect, IMO it shouldn't be the majority of training or you'll miss a lot of important aspects for fight skill training if it is. And, I think it's been years since I've done a bong/laap drill that is commonly seen in WC clips on the net. I have no problem if that is other's focus, and if it works for them great! Fut that's far from all of what WC is. And I assure you, I am still very much training WC at least 3 times a week without either being the main focus of my training ;)

[JPinAZ]

Yes that's what I do! I troll the internet forums because I crave attention from other grown men who like to talk complete rubbish about Wing Chun like your good sefl JonathonPin****fromArizona! lol

Yet you just posted 3 times in a row that have nothing to do with anything. Troll troll troll along, gently down the stream!

[Wayfaring]

Not sure that's necessarily a bad thing. You could perhaps annoy people if you kept on and on and on about it ... and if, like you, they were really thin skinned.:p


Yea, I'm probably going on a bit. I get that way from time to time. Not all the time - who has the time?

[Wayfaring]

If I was talking to some bjj enthusiasts about bjj and posted a clip of someone demonstrating bjj skills I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to point out the *******ishness of someone who, instead of talking about the bjj in the bjj clip, continually insisted on pointing out the flaws inherent in the whole bjj approach. In every single post.

The issue seems to be that you are not confident that wing chun is even worth doing, that it is useful in fighting. You demonstrate this by going on and on about how unreralistic the the available clips of wing chun training are, over and over again. When in fact this is all that wing chun training is (this is what wing chun people do). I am posting clips that are nice from the point of view of wing chun. That is all. Take it or leave it.

Ha ha - guyb, thanks for your contributions on this thread. There is no possible way I could illustrate the problems of the extreme mental closed loop most people train in when they train WCK without your illustrations.

[Wayfaring]

As long as certain people on this forum are mostly disagreeing with me I know I am on the right track. :D

Hey Graham. The SECRET to trolling is that you like kind of have to hide your motives rather than laying them all out in the open like this. You don't just stroll into an internet forum and say

"Hay guyz I'm on the interwebz now and am going to troll you".

It lacks subtlety. But then again we all have seen your chi sau clip.

[guy b.]

That's pretty scary if you believe clips of chi sau and bong lap drills are representitive of 'all that WC training is' or 'what WC people do'. :eek: This is a very narrow view of WC and IMO is part of the point wayfaring is trying to make.

You think that the pvt clips posted are chi sau and bong lap drills?


While all training has it's place, clips of in-school chi sau battles are not fighting and are not representitive of 'all wing chun training' (at least not as I know it). From my experience, they represent just a small portion of the training and focus on a very short and specific timeframe that doesn't happen for very long, an a lot of times not at all, in a fight (squared up, voth hands in contact at the wrist at 'chi sau' range).

Chi sau is an error correcting method. Unless you are perfect I think you should probably be coming back to it regularly. Chi sau is nothing to do with a certain timeframe or range in fighting. Lol at wrist.


I think it's been years since I've done a bong/laap drill that is commonly seen in WC clips on the net. I have no problem if that is other's focus, and if it works for them great! Fut that's far from all of what WC is. And I assure you, I am still very much training WC at least 3 times a week without either being the main focus of my training ;)

Strange how everyone is training the real full contact bells and whistles wing chun but all that turns up in training videos posted on youtube is plain old wing chun, some better, some worse.

[Jansingsang]

You think that the pvt clips posted are chi sau and bong lap drills?



Chi sau is an error correcting method. Unless you are perfect I think you should probably be coming back to it regularly. Chi sau is nothing to do with a certain timeframe or range in fighting. Lol at wrist.



Strange how everyone is training the real full contact bells and whistles wing chun but all that turns up in training videos posted on youtube is plain old wing chun, some better, some worse.


Agreed guy B Like i said shows weres his at with,,, What-cha ma call IT :D

GGM Yipman Stated Chi sao is the Heart of VT Without Chi sao theres No VT

Crawl before you walk Walk before you Run .....They just dont get it :rolleyes:

[Paddington]

Just a quick general comment on where this thread has gone re: Chi Sau 'debates'.

There are so many different ways to do chi sau and many names to describe the different types of chi sau out there.

Consequently, I sometimes find it hard to make any kind of headway through 'debates', like in this thread, as often protagonists on both sides are working with a very singular and set meaning for what they are referring to as chi sau. Most if not all seem equally valid depending upon what it is the two people are wanting to train.

Having just now (literally 20 or so minutes prior to the time stamp of this post), finished a chi sau and exchange of ideas session with a Sifu who is a WSL Wing Chun practitioner, I feel somewhat more steadfast in that belief.

It seems that as the number of 'different' Wing Chun lines increased so did a narrowing of what is accepted as 'chi sau' and the amount of time dedicated to practicing a certain way. I think this 'bad habit' has got us to a point where people from different Wing Chun lines and schools just can't 'chi sau' together harmoniously. Hell, we can't even discuss harmoniously!

I think this was a part of the point the Sifu I met today was getting at when he said 'it is like people are talking a different language', 'not able to have a wing chun conversation'. Of course, this was said in the context of talking about chi sau and the variety out there. Yep, ego became a theme in our conversation too.

Are someways to do chi sau better suited to prepare you 'more directly' (in terms of closer to the act of fighting) for actual fighting? Undoubtedly yes!

Are someways to do chi sau better suited to developing a skill or trait (sensitivity, relaxation, angle awareness) useful to the act of fighting? It is a yes again.

Of course the above is just an IMO but there seems to also be some agreement out there on this point (?). I guess all I am saying is it would just be nice to see these debates move on, instead of covering the same ground and becoming mired in those well trodden paths.

[Wayfaring]

Chi sau is an error correcting method. Unless you are perfect I think you should probably be coming back to it regularly. Chi sau is nothing to do with a certain timeframe or range in fighting. Lol at wrist.


LOL at ongoing clueless delusion Chi sau is an "error correcting method". That's rich. So your error is you only traih chi sau and don't spar. Please enlighten us on how chi sau is going to correct that error. Again perfect illustration of the delusional mental closed loop most people train WCK under.



Strange how everyone is training the real full contact bells and whistles wing chun but all that turns up in training videos posted on youtube is plain old wing chun, some better, some worse.

Strange how the one guy on the thread vehemently arguing against your points ends up coming full circle with a post noting how nobody is training full contact. Duh. That's kind of what set me off in the first place. If you want to look on this forum for more full contact WCK methods, the last I saw around here was Alan Orr posting up some videos explaining and showing their training methods. So search function newb.

[Wayfaring]

Consequently, I sometimes find it hard to make any kind of headway through 'debates', like in this thread, as often protagonists on both sides are working with a very singular and set meaning for what they are referring to as chi sau. Most if not all seem equally valid depending upon what it is the two people are wanting to train.


That's a good point. My contention is that over the years people have gravitated towards not "keeping it real". So the way they train chi sau has migrated ****her and ****her away from genuine fighting skills and training.

Also, they have a severe attachment to the way they are training chi sau currently, would never admit it has grown watered down over years because people are not keeping it real, and get to the state where they only accept input from a closed loop within their own system. This closed loop system gravitates more and more towards a friendly compliant drill. People training in that fashion are woefully unprepared for the violent nature of an aggressive encounter. That becomes downright dangerous from a self-defense perspective.

People still won't admit this. It can't be the way they are training is wrong. So they pull up from memory self-defense scenarios against untrained opponents where they were able to navigate the situation as proof how they are training is real.



I think this was a part of the point the Sifu I met today was getting at when he said 'it is like people are talking a different language', 'not able to have a wing chun conversation'. Of course, this was said in the context of talking about chi sau and the variety out there. Yep, ego became a theme in our conversation too.


They are talking a different language. They absolutely don't realize it.



Are someways to do chi sau better suited to prepare you 'more directly' (in terms of closer to the act of fighting) for actual fighting? Undoubtedly yes!

Are someways to do chi sau better suited to developing a skill or trait (sensitivity, relaxation, angle awareness) useful to the act of fighting? It is a yes again.


My advice: Keep it real. Keep it playful.

[Paddington]

Thanks for your comments Wayfaring. Just to clarify to avoid any misunderstanding, I believe I do realize it and so does the Sifu I met today, if I listened/read him correctly.

[JPinAZ]

You think that the pvt clips posted are chi sau and bong lap drills?

You are not getting it. The high majority of clips clips posted on the internet are chi sau and bong lap drills.


Chi sau is an error correcting method. Unless you are perfect I think you should probably be coming back to it regularly. Chi sau is nothing to do with a certain timeframe or range in fighting. Lol at wrist.

Again, you're not getting it. I'm talking about squared-up, duei yeng facing taan/bong/fook 2 hands-connected chi sau, which yes, most contact should be at the wrist and is a VERY specific rang, facing and timeframe whether you see it or not.
While I view chi sau as much more than this, what I am referfing to is the majority of what you see on the web clips. go back and re-read what I wrote.

FWIW, my views are, we shouldn't be focused on 'doing chi sau' with anyone - whether it's in our training or in application. To look at chi sau as something you 'do' as is commonly termed here on this forum, even on this thread, is viewing it as either a drill or a game imo (or if in applications, is trying to 'force' or chase a timeframe that isn't there - which to trouble. Similar to trying to grapple with someone that isn't in grappling range for example).

For me, 'chi sau' is more of an encompassing & overall bridging technology that covers all ranges of bridging. For example, in HFY, we typically start new student's training by looking at bridging strategies and tools via our Kiu Sau training modules going from pre contact to contact. This is the complete opposite of what you see in clips of T/B/F connected chi sau rolling which starts at one of the closest ranges of a fight. While it also has it's place, most fights don't start like that.


Strange how everyone is training the real full contact bells and whistles wing chun but all that turns up in training videos posted on youtube is plain old wing chun, some better, some worse.

Again, your reading comprehension skillz need serious improvement - I never said anything one way or the other about full contact anything. Stop putting words in my mouth and just read what I wrote.
But, if you think chi sau and bong laap drills (the majority of what is demonstrated of WC on youtube) is 'plain old wing chun', then wing chun is in a lot of trouble. Again, it's a bit surprising that this is all you think there is to WC. But there's really no point in going on further - you're never going to get it :rolleyes:

[guy b.]

LOL at ongoing clueless delusion Chi sau is an "error correcting method". That's rich. So your error is you only traih chi sau and don't spar. Please enlighten us on how chi sau is going to correct that error. Again perfect illustration of the delusional mental closed loop most people train WCK under.

What do you think chi sau is? It wouldn't make sense only to train chi sau because a person doing so would not make errors of practical application that would need correcting. Wing chun has a simple progression from gor sau to fighting with continual error correcting and drilling.


Strange how the one guy on the thread vehemently arguing against your points ends up coming full circle with a post noting how nobody is training full contact. Duh. That's kind of what set me off in the first place. If you want to look on this forum for more full contact WCK methods, the last I saw around here was Alan Orr posting up some videos explaining and showing their training methods. So search function newb.

The Alan Orr training clips that I have seen don't show any harder contact (sometimes less) than the pvt clips I have posted on this thread. And the wing chun shown is of a much lower quality. Why then is this training method something to emulate? Wing chun clips I have seen with gloves almost invariably show bad kick boxing rather than wing chun. Again, what is to like?

The only realistic full contact wing chun I have seen has been in actual fights and in the rare club sessions where this kind of testing is done. It is necessarily rare because wing chun is a bare handed boxing method and fighting with it causes a lot of damage. These don't get posted on youtube for obvious reasons.

[JPinAZ]

It is necessarily rare because wing chun is a bare handed boxing method and fighting with it causes a lot of damage. These don't get posted on youtube for obvious reasons.

And with that, the thread goes up in flames..

[guy b.]

You are not getting it. The high majority of clips clips posted on the internet are chi sau and bong lap drills.

The majority of clips posted on the internet have no bearing on the clips posted on this thread that Wayfaring and you were commenting on. Do these show chi sau and bong lap drills?


Again, you're not getting it. I'm talking about squared-up, duei yeng facing taan/bong/fook 2 hands-connected chi sau, which yes, most contact should be at the wrist and is a VERY specific rang, facing and timeframe whether you see it or not.
While I view chi sau as much more than this, what I am referfing to is the majority of what you see on the web clips. go back and re-read what I wrote.

FWIW, my views are, we shouldn't be focused on 'doing chi sau' with anyone - whether it's in our training or in application. To look at chi sau as something you 'do' as is commonly termed here on this forum, even on this thread, is viewing it as either a drill or a game imo (or if in applications, is trying to 'force' or chase a timeframe that isn't there - which to trouble. Similar to trying to grapple with someone that isn't in grappling range for example).

For me, 'chi sau' is more of an encompassing & overall bridging technology that covers all ranges of bridging. For example, in HFY, we typically start new student's training by looking at bridging strategies and tools via our Kiu Sau training modules going from pre contact to contact. This is the complete opposite of what you see in clips of T/B/F connected chi sau rolling which starts at one of the closest ranges of a fight. While it also has it's place, most fights don't start like that.

Genuine lol. Chi sau is a drill only. It is not directly related to fighting. Not even slightly. I find it uniquely entertaining to imagine you entering what you believe to be chi sau range in a fight.


Again, your reading comprehension skillz need serious improvement - I never said anything one way or the other about full contact anything. Stop putting words in my mouth and just read what I wrote.
But, if you think chi sau and bong laap drills (the majority of what is demonstrated of WC on youtube) is 'plain old wing chun', then wing chun is in a lot of trouble. Again, it's a bit surprising that this is all you think there is to WC. But there's really no point in going on further - you're never going to get it :rolleyes:

Put up or shut up.

[guy b.]

And with that, the thread goes up in flames..

You seem unfamiliar with the conventions of Chinese martial arts?

[guy b.]

More nice clips from the same group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fm5wFlUZ0E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_ooSoI-KSA

[JPinAZ]

Genuine lol. Chi sau is a drill only.

I'm sure to some that's all it is- but in Hung Fa Yi lineage, it's quite a bit more than that. Again, you're not going to get it, so I'm moving on.


It is not directly related to fighting. Not even slightly. I find it uniquely entertaining to imagine you entering what you believe to be chi sau range in a fight.

Yet again, not what I said. Either you're just too stupid to comprehend what I'm saying, or you are just playing childish games by acting like it. Either way, this is just becoming a futile waste of my time.

[Wayfaring]

More nice clips from the same group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fm5wFlUZ0E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_ooSoI-KSA

Awesome. I love the holding the face and dancing part. It reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7hHx7gdN68

Actually, if you put that music on in the background, and the face holding clip in the foreground, it almost sounds like one of Neal's wing chun parody videos from Bullshido. Like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riFGSv1cF0E&list=UU_1K8iZhAkDLjQeo0BN8cmQ&index=4

[wingchunIan]

Genuine lol. Chi sau is a drill only. It is not directly related to fighting. Not even slightly. I find it uniquely entertaining to imagine you entering what you believe to be chi sau range in a fight.


So do you train lots of drills that have nothing whatsoever to do with fighting? :confused:

Chi sao is not fighting but it is directly related to / applicable to fighting when done correctly, if what you do as chi sao isn't directly related to fighting then I'd advise you to stop doing it.

I don't know what was meant by "chi sao range" in the thread but IMO you will enter chi sao range everytime that you have a fight. If I can hit my opponent or he can hit / grab me then we are in "chi sao range"

[BPWT]

Actually, if you put that music on in the background, and the face holding clip in the foreground, it almost sounds like one of Neal's wing chun parody videos from Bullshido. Like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riFGSv1cF0E&list=UU_1K8iZhAkDLjQeo0BN8cmQ&index=4

I think this might be the first time in history that someone has found a connection between a WSLVT video clip and a video clip of the bullish*t that comes out of the EWTO these days. :D

Ah, we are all one family :D

[BPWT]

Genuine lol. Chi sau is a drill only. It is not directly related to fighting. Not even slightly. I find it uniquely entertaining to imagine you entering what you believe to be chi sau range in a fight.

I just don't understand a statement like this. :(

[sihing]

I just don't understand a statement like this. :(

For me it is simple to understand. Chi sau is like a sharpening tool for your Axe, the tool doesn't cut the wood, but without it, the Axe gets dull and will not cut thru the wood as effectively.

Most MA that I see or participated in, are application based, he does this you do that to defeat it. Of course they have excercises that train the body, to be fit, tough, flexible and such, but most of it rely's on you reacting to an opponents movement or being proactive by attacking thru the various techniques that it has to offer as a MA.

WC/VT is different in my experience, as it is like the sharpening tool, it is developing the tools each human has for combat, the body, the arms, the legs...but in a indirect way, as it makes all these things more efficient, more direct, more powerful in execution, more sensitive/adaptable, more balanced, etc... It's all about becoming more familiar with our own Body Mechanics, developing a structure from which to function off of, things of this nature. Once this skill set is absorb and understood, then you can start using your body to fight with or defend yourself, and applying techniques. It's the fundamental element beneath every technique that one can ever use, without it, your functionality is not as optimised IMO:)

James

[guy b.]

Either you're just too stupid to comprehend what I'm saying, or you are just playing childish games by acting like it.

Please don't be rude

[guy b.]

So do you train lots of drills that have nothing whatsoever to do with fighting? :confused:

Chi sao is not fighting but it is directly related to / applicable to fighting when done correctly, if what you do as chi sao isn't directly related to fighting then I'd advise you to stop doing it.

I don't know what was meant by "chi sao range" in the thread but IMO you will enter chi sao range everytime that you have a fight. If I can hit my opponent or he can hit / grab me then we are in "chi sao range"

The drills train a body method. The body method is used in fighting. The drills aren't used in fighting and don't contain anything directly applicable to fighting.

[k gledhill]

I think this might be the first time in history that someone has found a connection between a WSLVT video clip and a video clip of the bullish*t that comes out of the EWTO these days. :D

Ah, we are all one family :D

No way !....:.:::::

[k gledhill]

It's both sad and amusing reading different takes on " what is chi sao ? "

[BPWT]

For me it is simple to understand.James

I mean I don't understand how someone can learn WT/VT/WC and think Chi Sau is not even slightly related to fighting. It isn't fighting, but it should have developmental aspects on many levels - thus, training CS gives you something that is useful in a fight... And thus, is related.

[guy b.]

I mean I don't understand how someone can learn WT/VT/WC and think Chi Sau is not even slightly related to fighting. It isn't fighting, but it should have developmental aspects on many levels - thus, training CS gives you something that is useful in a fight... And thus, is related.

It is indirectly related to fighting in that it develops and corrects errors in a body method that you can use in fighting. But you can't directly apply chi sau to fighting because it isn't fighting.

[guy b.]

All of the different Chinese MA I have experienced work in this way. Forms and drills develop the body method. The body method is then applied to more and more free style drilling then eventually to fighting, while errors are corrected by returning to the forms and drills throughout the process. Doesn't matter if it is hsing yi, bak mei or wing chun. All utilise the same process.

[BPWT]

All of the different Chinese MA I have experienced work in this way. Forms and drills develop the body method. The body method is then applied to more and more free style drilling then eventually to fighting, while errors are corrected by returning to the forms and drills throughout the process. Doesn't matter if it is hsing yi, bak mei or wing chun. All utilise the same process.

Sure. The spine work, or say, the use of the ribs in Xingi Yi, as found in the forms, are methods you hope to use in a fight (for expressing power). What you learn in CS you should also utilize in a fight.

In this sense, IMO, everything you learn in WT should have a connection to fighting using the WT methods. So all related.

[guy b.]

Awesome. I love the holding the face and dancing part. It reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7hHx7gdN68

Actually, if you put that music on in the background, and the face holding clip in the foreground, it almost sounds like one of Neal's wing chun parody videos from Bullshido. Like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riFGSv1cF0E&list=UU_1K8iZhAkDLjQeo0BN8cmQ&index=4

Please post what you think of as a nice wing chun clip

[Robadob]

Awesome. I love the holding the face and dancing part. It reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7hHx7gdN68

Actually, if you put that music on in the background, and the face holding clip in the foreground, it almost sounds like one of Neal's wing chun parody videos from Bullshido. Like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riFGSv1cF0E&list=UU_1K8iZhAkDLjQeo0BN8cmQ&index=4

That is so funny!

I'd hoped to find a place here, where intelligent people would discuss VT, with equal respect to eachothers lineages and views. It is so easy to form an opinion on what you know and diss every arguement that goes against your allready formed opinion. Except for some exceptions, questions are only asked in order to make, once again, ones own point. As soon as the same and the same arguements are used over and over again and discussions only seem to be won by insults, this place will be nothing more than a virtual playground for keyboardwarriors.

So, I wish you all goodluck and hope you'll enjoy, in the spirit of this board, this little clip of wat Bjj and wrestling reminds me of ;)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DBulvzAUrtA

[guy b.]

Has Wayfaring ever posted clips of his perfect wing chun?

[Wayfaring]

Please post what you think of as a nice wing chun clip

I like Hawkins' video that ironpalm just posted.

[guy b.]

I like Hawkins' video that ironpalm just posted.

Has Wayfaring ever posted clips of his perfect wing chun?

[Wayfaring]

Has Wayfaring ever posted clips of his perfect wing chun?

Has guyb ever posted a clip of his obtuse self trying to spar? If you ever do, could you do the face holding dance for me? I can't seem to get enough of viewing that. It's like more cowbell.

[guy b.]

Has guyb ever posted a clip of his obtuse self trying to spar?

I haven't made any claims about "sparring". You have made claims about various wing chun clips posted on the forum (in fact almost every clip posted). Feel free to back your claims up whenever you feel like it by providing evidence of what the correct wing chun should look like. Or alternatively don't but implicitly forfeit your credibility.

[Wayfaring]

That is so funny!

I'd hoped to find a place here, where intelligent people would discuss VT, with equal respect to eachothers lineages and views. It is so easy to form an opinion on what you know and diss every arguement that goes against your allready formed opinion. Except for some exceptions, questions are only asked in order to make, once again, ones own point. As soon as the same and the same arguements are used over and over again and discussions only seem to be won by insults, this place will be nothing more than a virtual playground for keyboardwarriors.

So, I wish you all goodluck and hope you'll enjoy, in the spirit of this board, this little clip of wat Bjj and wrestling reminds me of ;)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DBulvzAUrtA

There are intelligent people on this forum. They do discuss VT or WCK. When faced with a choice between "being respectful" when discussing fighting, or telling the truth, I tell the truth.

My opinions have not been easily formed. They have been forged over years of combat art training.

I do never really understand people's necessity for informing an internet forum that they are leaving. Do you want a goodbye card?

I couldn't see your funny video well but it looked like Borat in a bikini thong. If so that's an excellent and appropriate parody of how ridiculous grappling looks - wrestling and bjj. Funny parody with a little truth behind it.

[guy b.]

My opinions have not been easily formed. They have been forged over years of combat art training

Are you so battle hardened by your years of combat art training that the rules of logical argument have been beaten out of you and no longer apply? If so then I appologise for daring to raise an argument in your esteemed presence.

[Wayfaring]

I haven't made any claims about "sparring". You have made claims about various wing chun clips posted on the forum (in fact almost every clip posted). Feel free to back your claims up whenever you feel like it by providing evidence of what the correct wing chun should look like. Or alternatively don't but implicitly forfeit your credibility.

guy no offense but I'm not doing this dysfunctional dance with you.

The claims I've made refer to whether or not certain training patterns are realistic in fight scenarios. I've posted up public fight videos of people I train with that illustrate this. You can ensure that the basic fighting concepts I am promoting when discussing these clips like keeping hands up and covering your upper gate at all times, and retracting punches rather than leaving them out there are executed in a real fight in those clips.

Quite obviously you are conflicted and hurt over the painful reality that fight clips showing the hold the face dance aren't realistically training fighting.

I mean if you really like the face dance, and the face dance makes you happy, why do you care what I think about it anyway?

[guy b.]

guy no offense but I'm not doing this dysfunctional dance with you.

The claims I've made refer to whether or not certain training patterns are realistic in fight scenarios. I've posted up public fight videos of people I train with that illustrate this. You can ensure that the basic fighting concepts I am promoting when discussing these clips like keeping hands up and covering your upper gate at all times, and retracting punches rather than leaving them out there are executed in a real fight in those clips.

Quite obviously you are conflicted and hurt over the painful reality that fight clips showing the hold the face dance aren't realistically training fighting.

I mean if you really like the face dance, and the face dance makes you happy, why do you care what I think about it anyway?

I'm not offended by your concession of defeat Wayfaring. I am pleased we could reach this point in such a constructive way. If you can't show evidence of what good wing chun looks like then your argument is void, unless you are claiming that good wing chun does not exist at all.

[guy b.]

What is an evidence free claim after all but idle speculation? It certainly doesn't amount to an argument.

[Wayfaring]

I'm not offended by your concession of defeat Wayfaring. I am pleased we could reach this point in such a constructive way. If you can't show evidence of what good wing chun looks like then your argument is void, unless you are claiming that good wing chun does not exist at all.

1.5 on troll scale

[guy b.]

1.5 on troll scale

If you can't show evidence of what good wing chun looks like then your argument is void, unless you are claiming that good wing chun does not exist at all.

[guy b.]

Evidence please

[Wayfaring]

If you can't show evidence of what good wing chun looks like then your argument is void, unless you are claiming that good wing chun does not exist at all.

Nah. I disagree with your premise, that's all.

[guy b.]

Here is an evidence-free claim for which I have no support. Are you convinced by it?

*Wayfaring's wing chun mainly consists of leaning on his opponent. He claims this is an integration of chi sau principles and grappling, a kind of "dirty boxing" if you like. Unfortunately it is about as much use as a broken leg when it comes to fighting*

Am I justified in making this speculative claim, or do I first need to support my claim with evidence before it becomes a valid argument that can be tested?

[guy b.]

Nah. I disagree with your premise, that's all.

I haven't made an argument. You have though

[Wayfaring]

You can think whatever you like. But it does show me what you are looking to say about any WCK clip I would put up.

Oh and 1.1 on the troll scale. Such lack of subtlety.

It's kind of like chi sau - you walking out to the middle of the room, getting into your YJKYM stance and holding out your arms inviting someone to chi sau with you with big sad puppy dog eyes.

[guy b.]

You can think whatever you like. But it does show me what you are looking to say about any WCK clip I would put up.

Oh and 1.1 on the troll scale. Such lack of subtlety.

It's kind of like chi sau - you walking out to the middle of the room, getting into your YJKYM stance and holding out your arms inviting someone to chi sau with you with big sad puppy dog eyes.

I'm not trolling you, I'm arguing with you. You are currently failing to provide evidence, i.e. conceding the argument.

I've never seen you do wing chun or seen any wing chun clip you liked, therefore I have absolutely no preconceived opinion about what it might look like. It could be the best wing chun I've ever seen. My mind is completely open on this matter. But we can't have a discussion about the validity of your criticisms and the merits of the wing chun you like unless you provide an example of it. By failing to do this you concede the argument that you started. This seems like a strange thing to do. Unless you were just trolling of course.

[guy b.]

But then you look stupid. Why would you want to look stupid?

Your behaviour on this thread is confusing

[Wayfaring]

I've never seen you do wing chun or seen any wing chun clip you liked, therefore I have absolutely no preconceived opinion what it might look like.


I have never seen you do wing chun either unless you are hiding out incognito in one of those clips you posted. I've already given one example of a clip I liked, so therefore you are lying about having absolutely no preconceived notion what it might look like. I'm not spending hours on the internet scouring for videos for your approval.



It could be the best wing chun I've ever seen. My mind is completely open on this matter. But we can't have a discussion about the validity of your criticisms and the merits of the wing chun you like unless you provide an example of it. By failing to do this you concede the argument that you started. This seems like a strange thing to do. Unless you were just trolling of course.

I don't believe you that your mind is completely open on this matter. I believe you are deeply upset and trolling away madly.

I've given numerous examples about the validity of my criticisms, and virtually ANY competent fight clip will show those illustrated.

I'm not failing to do anything, and your grade school debate logic is just making you look idiotic on the internet. You really don't need my help to do that, so I'll leave you to it.

[guy b.]

I have never seen you do wing chun either unless you are hiding out incognito in one of those clips you posted. I've already given one example of a clip I liked, so therefore you are lying about having absolutely no preconceived notion what it might look like. I'm not spending hours on the internet scouring for videos for your approval.

You have seen clips of wing chun that I like. I have not seen clips of wing chun that you like. The Hawkins clip shows Hawkins talking and shuffling around. It doesn't show wing chun.


I don't believe you that your mind is completely open on this matter. I believe you are deeply upset and trolling away madly.

Why would I be upset? You haven't insulted me personally. But you do seem very insecure about the wing chun you like.


I've given numerous examples about the validity of my criticisms, and virtually ANY competent fight clip will show those illustrated.

Then simply post an example of wing chun that counts as a competent fight clip by your criteria.


I'm not failing to do anything, and your grade school debate logic is just making you look idiotic on the internet. You really don't need my help to do that, so I'll leave you to it.

Ok, I accept your concession of defeat in this argument. Please don't bother me with it again

[Paddington]

I'm not trolling you, I'm agruing with you. You are currently failing to provide evidence, i.e. conceding the argument.
[...].

I don't know if you are aware but quite a few of us have been trying to change the way we discuss to avoid threads descending into the abyss.

It is such a shame that many posts on this board are more about people trying to shame one another than trying to understand other people's points of view. A fear of being proved 'wrong' perhaps also lurks here far too often.

[Wayfaring]

You have seen clips of wing chun that I like. I have not seen clips of wing chun that you like. The Hawkins clip shows Hawkins talking and shuffling around. It doesn't show wing chun.


Tell that to Hawkins trollio.

[JPinAZ]

Evidence please

You've asked him what, 7 times now in 2 pages? Dude, stop begging already - you're like the little kid in the grocery store crying to his mom because he wants candy after she's told him no. It's embarrassing, bordering on plain 'ol pathetic.

Go ahead and call me rude, i could care less - this is a kung fu forum I call it like I see it. If you don't like my truth, grow some thicker skin ;)


But then you look stupid. Why would you want to look stupid?

You cried when I used the word stupid, now look who's being rude trollio.. (sorry for stealing your term wayfaring)

[guy b.]

Tell that to Hawkins trollio.

You are comparing a clip of Hawkins talking and demonstrating gently with a compliant partner to clips of free wing chun. These are not comparible because they don't show the same thing. Again this amounts to a concession of defeat. What are you so scared of?

[guy b.]

You've asked him what, 7 times now in 2 pages? Dude, stop begging already - you're like the little kid in the grocery store crying to his mom because he wants candy after she's told him no. It's embarrassing, bordering on plain 'ol pathetic.

Go ahead and call me rude, i could care less - this is a kung fu forum I call it like I see it. If you don't like my truth, grow some thicker skin ;)

Whenever Wayfaring concedes defeat, I attempt to walk away from the discussion. But he keeps on creeping back to it.

[Wayfaring]

You are comparing a clip of Hawkins talking and demonstrating gently with a compliant partner to clips of free wing chun. These are not comparible because they don't show the same thing. Again this amounts to a concession of defeat. What are you so scared of?

I'm not comparing anything. I liked the fundamental concepts of wing chun that Hawkins was discussing and illustrating. Why did I mention I liked this? Oh, because you demanded to see a WCK video I liked.

I mean I can see your perspective on how that's not the same thing as your face dance video. I don't really get what you mean by "free wing chun"? Did someone imprison wing chun that it needs to be freed? I guess you could call the face dancing "free wing chun" in that people are free to post up on the internet anything they want, and act "free" regardless of how ridiculous they look.

I mean you are succeeding in painting me into a corner here. I really don't see how I could find a face dance WCK video that I like to fit your narrow parameters here.

[Wayfaring]

Whenever Wayfaring concedes defeat, I attempt to walk away from the discussion. But he keeps on creeping back to it.

I concede defeat. I am completely unable to find a face dance WCK video that I like and that doesn't make me giggle a little uncontrollably.

[guy b.]

I concede defeat.

I'm glad you were able finally to face reality.

How strange that you would rather lose an argument you started than post a clip showing the kind of wing chun you like. It is always easier to criticise than to stand for something

[Wayfaring]

I don't know if you are aware but quite a few of us have been trying to change the way we discuss to avoid threads descending into the abyss.

It is such a shame that many posts on this board are more about people trying to shame one another than trying to understand other people's points of view. A fear of being proved 'wrong' perhaps also lurks here far too often.

I'm not trying to change the way I discuss things. Conflict has purpose. Maybe if more WCK people understood this they'd be less afraid to spar with one another.

[Wayfaring]

Since this thread goes into the topic of realistic training I found another clip I like. :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3N7v4aK7JA

[guy b.]

I'm not trying to change the way I discuss things. Conflict has purpose. Maybe if more WCK people understood this they'd be less afraid to spar with one another.

Lol at the irony. Your actions here are those of a coward. You are terrified of identifying some wing chun you actually like.

[Wayfaring]

Lol at the irony. Your actions here are those of a coward. You are terrified of identifying some wing chun you actually like.

Just out of curiosity, where do you live again guyb? where do you train? Oh, and I forgot, how old are you?

[GlennR]

Since this thread goes into the topic of realistic training I found another clip I like. :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3N7v4aK7JA

Very good.

[guy b.]

Just out of curiosity, where do you live again guyb? where do you train? Oh, and I forgot, how old are you?

Lol!

Ok I live alone, I am self taught from video, and I am 13 years old.

[guy b.]

Are the martial arts police coming to speak to me?

[Wayfaring]

Lol!

Ok I live alone, I am self taught from video, and I am 13 years old.

Well other than the mother's basement part, that's pretty much the impression I got. Thanks for confirming it.

[Wayfaring]

Are the martial arts police coming to speak to me?

No. It's just that when people want to start calling me a coward on the internet, I start to become interested in who it is that I am speaking with.

[anerlich]

Are the martial arts police coming to speak to me?

No, but your parents are going to ground you.

[guy b.]

No. It's just that when people want to start calling me a coward on the internet, I start to become interested in who it is that I am speaking with.

You are a coward on the internet. This is obvious from your behaviour on this thread, criticising effusively then failing to provide evidence for your argument when challenged, presumably because the wing chun you actually like looks pretty ****ing stupid (I can't think of any other reason for your cowardly behaviour). I would say it to your face too. If you felt the need to physically challenge me for saying it then I would only laugh at your inadequacy.

[Wayfaring]

You are a coward on the internet. This is obvious from your behaviour on this thread, criticising effusively then failing to provide evidence for your argument when challenged, presumably because the wing chun you actually like looks pretty ****ing stupid (I can't think of any other reason for your cowardly behaviour). I would say it to your face too. If you felt the need to physically challenge me for saying it then I would only laugh at your inadequacy.

Wow. You're really attached to me. Next thing you know, I'll be getting black roses on my doorstep.

anerlich is right - better quit before your mom finds out what you're doing on the internet.

I think the coward word is you projecting. Most people who talk big like you do are a whole lot meeker face to face. And yes, I'm certain I could show you what my wing chun looks like in person. From a live perspective. After you do that, you are free to call it stupid or whatever you want.

Oh but wait, you are free to call it stupid. Your mom does have that internet connection.

[guy b.]

Wow. You're really attached to me. Next thing you know, I'll be getting black roses on my doorstep.

anerlich is right - better quit before your mom finds out what you're doing on the internet.

This is a pretty stupid reply. Your best bet would be to find a clip of wing chun that you actually like. Bizarre that a person posting on the wing chun forum finds it difficult to do so.

[guy b.]

I can't help it that you fail at argument. When you try to salvage your trainwreck of a posting on this thread by lying I need to reply to restore balance. You are welcome to stop if you like.

[Wayfaring]

This is a pretty stupid reply. Your best bet would be to find a clip of wing chun that you actually like. Bizarre that a person posting on the wing chun forum finds it difficult to do so.

I already did, highlighted it. Any grade-school fool can follow that logic and trail. Then you called Hawkins Cheung teaching "not wing chun". Which, although tremendously funny, still has not yet reached the comedic high point of this thread which was your hold the face dance clip. That clip has pure Bullshido "Wing Chun Sucks" video written all over it. Which makes a laughingstock of the art. Well done there.

Beyond that, I'm not your slave boy, to go out and find video for you on the internet. And yes there is wing chun I like. It's not hard to guess what that might be. (HINT: It involves contact fighting, not just chi sau). You are not my master to order me out to find another video clip to be approved or dismissed by yourself.

Now that I think about it, the whole master/slave thing you're desiring to set up here has me wondering what exactly you do there in your mom's basement.

[guy b.]

I already did, highlighted it. Any grade-school fool can follow that logic and trail. Then you called Hawkins Cheung teaching "not wing chun". Which, although tremendously funny, still has not yet reached the comedic high point of this thread which was your hold the face dance clip. That clip has pure Bullshido "Wing Chun Sucks" video written all over it. Which makes a laughingstock of the art. Well done there.

Beyond that, I'm not your slave boy, to go out and find video for you on the internet. And yes there is wing chun I like. It's not hard to guess what that might be. (HINT: It involves contact fighting, not just chi sau). You are not my master to order me out to find another video clip to be approved or dismissed by yourself.

Now that I think about it, the whole master/slave thing you're desiring to set up here has me wondering what exactly you do there in your mom's basement.

Hawkins is not doing wing chun, he is talking about it. What is "bullshido"?

Do you like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuzITQpFWGs

[guy b.]

Jesus you are an actual moron. You don't understand basic logic. Maybe too many shots to the head?

You are the one that failed to identify a clip of wing chun you liked when challenged after objecting to some wing chun posted on this thread. The burden of proof is upon you. Failure to provide evidence when asked invalidates your argument, reducing it to mere opinion. I am happy with that, but you don't seem to be. Why is that?

[Wayfaring]

Hawkins is not doing wing chun, he is talking about it. What is "bullshido"?


Bullshido is a website that investigates and exposes frauds in the martial arts. They also do parody videos. Wing chun was the subject of one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9FJQ1ykn0M




Do you like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuzITQpFWGs

I like aspects of what Alan does, and the fact that the entire striking portion of his MMA team is from wing chun. I think Alan's teacher Robert Chu does understand structure and rooting to the ground in wing chun better than most, including power generation. I don't like everything he does. That clip is a certain type of drill - compliant chi sau with a lot of hip in forward pressure. It's training how his guys fight. They spar too though consistently, and train ground. The biggest thing I like about Alan is he keeps it real.

[Wayfaring]

Jesus you are an actual moron. You don't understand basic logic. Maybe too many shots to the head?

You are the one that failed to identify a clip of wing chun you liked when challenged after objecting to some wing chun posted on this thread. The burden of proof is upon you. Failure to provide evidence when asked invalidates your argument, reducing it to mere opinion. I am happy with that, but you don't seem to be. Why is that?

You think posting up links to YouTube videos of compliant wing chun exercises and saying "nice movement" consists of something beyond opinion?

I'm not playing your little games. Or your childish namecalling.

[guy b.]

Bullshido is a website that investigates and exposes frauds in the martial arts. They also do parody videos. Wing chun was the subject of one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9FJQ1ykn0M

Seems very childish. Are you a child?



I like aspects of what Alan does, and the fact that the entire striking portion of his MMA team is from wing chun. I think Alan's teacher Robert Chu does understand structure and rooting to the ground in wing chun better than most, including power generation. I don't like everything he does. That clip is a certain type of drill - compliant chi sau with a lot of hip in forward pressure. It's training how his guys fight. They spar too though consistently, and train ground. The biggest thing I like about Alan is he keeps it real.

Do you like this wing chun clip? Do you like any wing chun clip?

[Wayfaring]

Do you like this wing chun clip? Do you like any wing chun clip?

Every time I answer a question from you, you just don't seem to get it. It's like the elevators don't quite go up to your top floor. I mean I can directly answer one of your questions, then the next post you re-ask it.

Oh, wait. I get it. I'm feeding a troll.

[guy b.]

Every time I answer a question from you, you just don't seem to get it. It's like the elevators don't quite go up to your top floor. I mean I can directly answer one of your questions, then the next post you re-ask it.

Oh, wait. I get it. I'm feeding a troll.

You haven't answered anything. You have avoided a lot of what is required of you if you want to have an actual argument. At the moment you are frantically stalling. Why? What are you afraid of? Don't you like wing chun?

[guy b.]

You think posting up links to YouTube videos of compliant wing chun exercises and saying "nice movement" consists of something beyond opinion?

I'm not playing your little games. Or your childish namecalling.

I didn't begin the argument. If you want to continue it then you need to provide an example of good wing chun, to contrast with the bad wing chun I like. We can then continue to debate the relative merits of the different approaches.

[Wayfaring]

You haven't answered anything. You have avoided a lot of what is required of you if you want to have an actual argument. At the moment you are frantically stalling. Why? What are you afraid of? Don't you like wing chun?

2.3 troll stars for the emotional adjective "frantic" and your attempts to introduce words like "afraid"

1.3 troll stars on the transparent "shift the burden of requirement" logic.

And on the "what is required of you" angle, you are just plain pathetic. 0.1 stars.

[guy b.]

ok idiot. 0.001 stars for intelligence. I think I would get a better conversation from a dog. Or even a sheep.

[Wayfaring]

I didn't begin the argument. If you want to continue it then you need to provide an example of good wing chun, to contrast with the bad wing chun I like. We can then continue to debate the relative merits of the different approaches.

I can take or leave this discussion. Clearly I am not the master debater that you are. I'm just offering my opinion that the face dance video is pretty funny. This has seemed to leave you in a state sputtering and saying "but, but, but" and continuing to pile on ridiculous requirements related to whether or not I can continue to post my opinion and the evidence behind how I developed it on a thread on the internet.

I'll give you a clue here. Yes, I can continue to post on the internet. With or without your approval. I know that's hard for you to get because you always have to ask your mom first.

[guy b.]

I can take or leave this discussion. Clearly I am not the master debater that you are. I'm just offering my opinion that the face dance video is pretty funny. This has seemed to leave you in a state sputtering and saying "but, but, but" and continuing to pile on ridiculous requirements related to whether or not I can continue to post my opinion and the evidence behind how I developed it on a thread on the internet.

I'll give you a clue here. Yes, I can continue to post on the internet. With or without your approval. I know that's hard for you to get because you always have to ask your mom first.

You are free to post your opinion, but it doesn't constitute an argument. I am not sure sure you understand the difference having attempted to initiate one before chickening out after realising what it entailed. I will treat your opinion with the attention it merits.

[Wayfaring]

You are free to post your opinion, but it doesn't constitute an argument. I am not sure sure you understand the difference having attempted to initiate one before chickening out after realising what it entailed. I will treat your opinion with the attention it merits.

You are free to continue to post up lamer video clips, along with nice tennis-audience appropriate comments like "ooh", and "nice movement roger". That also doesn't constitute an argument.

But one person not liking it sure gets you spun up. Must be attachment issues.

[guy b.]

You are free to continue to post up lamer video clips, along with nice tennis-audience appropriate comments like "ooh", and "nice movement roger". That also doesn't constitute an argument.

But one person not liking it sure gets you spun up. Must be attachment issues.

Lol! Again, I'm not making an argument, just posting wing chun clips I like. But you are (were), and at this you fail completely.

Are you slightly retarded? If you are then I understand

[Wayfaring]

Lol! Again, I'm not making an argument, just posting wing chun clips I like. But you are (were), and at this you fail completely.

Are you slightly retarded? If you are then I understand

You have your head wedged so far up your @$$ you can't even see back two posts ago what you wrote.

You told me I was losing an argument. Since I wasn't aware I was in an argument, just that I was making appropriate comments to some really retarded clips, the logical conclusion is that the argument that is going on is the one raging between your ears. This is the argument that you for the last page and a half on this thread keep insisting that I am not fulfilling the terms of.

Anyway, this is getting boring. So the argument in your head? That's all yours.

[JPinAZ]

Someone is clearly off their meds.


I haven't made an argument.

and then, in the very next post:


I'm not trolling you, I'm arguing with you

Then he goes on for 7 or 8 posts of pathetic arguing about who's winning/losing said argument, then to go on to argue about who actually started 'the argument' that he's really not having at all.

which brings us full circle to:
Again, I'm not making an argument

WTF... if this doesn't deserve the Worst Troll Award of the Year, I don't know what does. (BTW, wayfaring, why are you feeding this troll? You're better than this ;))

[Wayfaring]

BTW, wayfaring, why are you feeding this troll? You're better than this

I have a big test coming up and subconsciously I'm avoiding the harder work of studying for an easier option?

Kind of like people not sparring?

[guy b.]

Good clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpKncYG7rUk

[tc101]

Good clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpKncYG7rUk

One way to judge is to look at the results of this training.

[Frost]

One way to judge is to look at the results of this training.

oh nice comeback :) and so very true now
it amazes me that the only two styles of wing chun which we can find clips of constantly fighting in full contact venues and holding their own are alans guys and cheungs group curtsey of Phil Redmond, and both those styles get ripped apart by the chi sao brigade as not proper wing chun...kind of makes you think really

[tc101]

oh nice comeback :) and so very true now
it amazes me that the only two styles of wing chun which we can find clips of constantly fighting in full contact venues and holding their own are alans guys and cheungs group curtsey of Phil Redmond, and both those styles get ripped apart by the chi sao brigade as not proper wing chun...kind of makes you think really

I think the focus is often wrongly on who has the right better superior idea and that is of course me me and sifu instead of what are you doing about putting that idea into action which is often very little.

[guy b.]

I think the focus is often wrongly on who has the right better superior idea and that is of course me me and sifu instead of what are you doing about putting that idea into action which is often very little.

If you wish to judge by the standard of sports competition then none of us should be doing wing chun at all. Even Alan's group are low level semi pro at best and nothing to be excited about in the grand scheme of things. Why are we all wasting our time?

There are of course other ways to judge the results of training. But sports fans tend to denigrate these. Hypocritical really, since they are rarely to never high level sports MA competitors themselves.

[Frost]

If you wish to judge by the standard of sports competition then none of us should be doing wing chun at all. Even Alan's group are low level semi pro at best and nothing to be excited about in the grand scheme of things. Why are we all wasting our time?

There are of course other ways to judge the results of training. But sports fans tend to denigrate these. Hypocritical really, since they are rarely to never high level sports MA competitors themselves.

Doesnt have to be high level, but if you are winning more than you are losing even at a local level in an enviroment where there are few rules you are doing a lot better than people who just chi sao all day long

what is really Hypocritical is knocking alan and phil for being low level when you wont show a single clip of your lineage or yourself doing anything against a resisting opponent

[tc101]

If you wish to judge by the standard of sports competition then none of us should be doing wing chun at all. Even Alan's group are low level semi pro at best and nothing to be excited about in the grand scheme of things. Why are we all wasting our time?


I do not think that is true. Most people who train at socalled sport martial arts like boxing mma wrestling do not compete in competitions and they are not wasting their time. There are many mma cboxing etc gyms where some of the people are at semi pro level. In my book semi pro is a pretty high level and not to be sneezed at.

Let me expand on my too brief explanation. I do not think we can tell much from looking at an isolated drill but we need to look at the overall training and the results individuals achieve with that that training. The result of your overall training is the level of performance you the individual achieves.



There are of course other ways to judge the results of training. But sports fans tend to denigrate these. Hypocritical really, since they are rarely to never high level sports MA competitors themselves.

Yes there are other ways to judge the results of your training but they all involve performance do they not?

[guy b.]

Doesnt have to be high level, but if you are winning more than you are losing even at a local level in an enviroment where there are few rules you are doing a lot better than people who just chi sao all day long

Incorrect based on using the results of sporting competition as the basis for your decision. If you are doing this then you need to be training MMA (or whichever sport you use as your benchmark) rather than wing chun, and you need to be training with one of the top few trainers, not wasting your time with lower level guys. Wing chun appears to be an extraordinarily poor choice for success in the ring based on the facts as they currently stand. Why then do people judging in this way have anything to do with wing chun? It doesn't make sense.


what is really Hypocritical is knocking alan and phil for being low level when you wont show a single clip of your lineage or yourself doing anything against a resisting opponent

I've never knowingly knocked Phil, not even sure who he is to be honest. I haven't ever attacked Alan for turning out lower tier fighters. It is just what he happens to have done. The results speak for themselves. I have shown plenty of clips of wing chun against opponents who are resisting.

[guy b.]

I do not think that is true. Most people who train at socalled sport martial arts like boxing mma wrestling do not compete in competitions and they are not wasting their time. There are many mma cboxing etc gyms where some of the people are at semi pro level. In my book semi pro is a pretty high level and not to be sneezed at.

Judging based on sports competition as you suggested means striving to train at the places that turn out the best fighters in the sport MA you choose as your benchmark. Anything else is a less than ideal use of your time. I don't think I said anything about competing yourself, although a corollary of the sport as validation argument would involve testing the lessons have sunk in through sport and accepting sports defeat as a mark of failure to learn effectively.


Let me expand on my too brief explanation. I do not think we can tell much from looking at an isolated drill but we need to look at the overall training and the results individuals achieve with that that training. The result of your overall training is the level of performance you the individual achieves.

Which isolated drill do you mean? Looking at movement in a less than full on fight can show a lot. There are many ways to test personal performance, don't you think?

[tc101]

Judging based on sports competition as you suggested means striving to train at the places that turn out the best fighters in the sport MA you choose as your benchmark. Anything else is a less than ideal use of your time. I don't think I said anything about competing yourself, although a corollary of the sport as validation argument would involve testing the lessons have sunk in through sport and accepting sports defeat as a mark of failure to learn effectively.


No no the benchmark I am talking about is your personal peformance level or how well you can apply your art. Sport competition is just a means to seeing what your level is and how your training is working. For example if someone is at the level of semi pro mma, I'd say that is pretty darn impressive and says something about their training.

I don't understand your comment about then needing to strive to train at gyms that produce ony top fighters. This may be true if you want to be a top fighter but most people do not have those aspirations. How many boxing gyms are there around the world?

I don't think losing in sport or in sparring is a mark of a failure to learn but part of the process of learning and getting better and is inevitable. Performance is not simply a matter of did you learn the lessons properly.



Which isolated drill do you mean? Looking at movement in a less than full on fight can show a lot. There are many ways to test personal performance, don't you think?

What I mean is that you can look at jumping rope as a drill and say that is for little girls. If you didn't know anything about boxing and saw that rope jumping was one of their main drills you might laugh and say they are doing little girl games. Just isolating that drill won't tell you about how good a boxers training is but jumpting rope plays a part. Looking at the boxer on the mitts can tell you about how well they can move but not how well they can box or perform in the ring. As far as I can tell there are only two ways to test personal performance and one is through personal performance and the other is with a crystal ball.

[Dragonzbane76]

I don't think losing in sport or in sparring is a mark of a failure to learn but part of the process of learning and getting better and is inevitable. Performance is not simply a matter of did you learn the lessons properly.

great statement.

resistance is the key....putting yourself in very uncomfortable situations and trying to over come them is the only true factor in determining what you are doing is right. Drills have there place and help in sharpening the edges, but all the drills in the world do not add up to full on resistance. Sports are not the benchmark but they are a hell of a lot better than most of the tip tap crap I see in most MA's.

[guy b.]

No no the benchmark I am talking about is your personal peformance level or how well you can apply your art. Sport competition is just a means to seeing what your level is and how your training is working. For example if someone is at the level of semi pro mma, I'd say that is pretty darn impressive and says something about their training

Dig beneath the surface and this argument is meaningless. But it isn't what you initially said anyway..

You said "one way to judge whether a youtube clip of someone else is good is to look at the results of their training". This implies objective judgement vs a set standard, in the case of Alan Orr's team sports competition. Judged to this standard they are pretty unsuccessful.

While you weren't initially talking about people testing end evaluating themselves, you change your argument to this in an attempt to excape the implications of your original statement. However since a person cannot train and evaluate themselves in multiple methods at the same time the argument is meaningless. There is nothing for them to benchmark their progress against. Any ****ty training methodology will bring about some improvement in an untrained person. Impossible to tell if there is a better way for that person because there are only so many hours in a life. Even if they try 3, 4 or 5 different approaches they are only scratching the surface.

[tc101]

Dig beneath the surface and this argument is meaningless. But it isn't what you initially said anyway..

You said "one way to judge whether a youtube clip of someone else is good is to look at the results of their training". This implies objective judgement vs a set standard, in the case of Alan Orr's team sports competition. Judged to this standard they are pretty unsuccessful.

While you weren't initially talking about people testing end evaluating themselves, you change your argument to this in an attempt to excape the implications of your original statement. However since a person cannot train and evaluate themselves in multiple methods at the same time the argument is meaningless. There is nothing for them to benchmark their progress against. Any ****ty training methodology will bring about some improvement in an untrained person. Impossible to tell if there is a better way for that person because there are only so many hours in a life. Even if they try 3, 4 or 5 different approaches they are only scratching the surface.

I am sorry if I was not clear. What I mean is if you look at some drill out of the context of all the training they do you cannot really judge since you do not know how that drill fits into the overall training plan but if you look at someone's performance level that is a good indicator of their overall training.

If a gym produces several semi pro level fighters I think that is a good indicator of the overall training being very successful.

I do not understand your last paragraph. You seem stuck on the idea that there is some best way or approach. I am saying that this is not the case. What matters is how well you can execute or perform whatever approach or idea you have. That others can beat you is not so much a reflection on the relative value of your ideas or approaches but on who trained harder and more effectively.

[guy b.]

I am sorry if I was not clear. What I mean is if you look at some drill out of the context of all the training they do you cannot really judge since you do not know how that drill fits into the overall training plan but if you look at someone's performance level that is a good indicator of their overall training.

If a gym produces several semi pro level fighters I think that is a good indicator of the overall training being very successful.

Producing a few semi pro fighters is a sign of training being very unsuccessful if the goal is sports competition where the ultimate achievement is to produce national or world champions.


I do not understand your last paragraph. You seem stuck on the idea that there is some best way or approach. I am saying that this is not the case. What matters is how well you can execute or perform whatever approach or idea you have. That others can beat you is not so much a reflection on the relative value of your ideas or approaches but on who trained harder and more effectively.

Complete nonsense. There absolutely exist fighting styles that are better for certain situations than others. Some ideas are so poor that they will never produce success.

[Frost]

Producing a few semi pro fighters is a sign of training being very unsuccessful if the goal is sports competition where the ultimate achievement is to produce national or world champions.

spoken like someone who has never competed or been around competition teams


Complete nonsense. There absolutely exist fighting styles that are better for certain situations than others. Some ideas are so poor that they will never produce success.
and yet those ideas become very popular for some unknown reason....how many people do wing chun these days for example ;)

[Wayfaring]

I was still trying to figure out WTF a "semi pro" fighter is. I've never seen one.

[guy b.]

spoken like someone who has never competed or been around competition teams

Lol at the irony. I think you probably hang around the mma fanboy bullshido forum more than you hang around competition teams. Producing amateur, semi pro, or pro fighters is easy. Having them do well is a lot more difficult. By this standard Alan Orr's wing chun (and all wing chun) is a complete failure. Is this the only valid standard by which to judge success?


and yet those ideas become very popular for some unknown reason....how many people do wing chun these days for example ;)

I know you don't like wing chun. Why then do you post on the wing chun forum?

[guy b.]

I was still trying to figure out WTF a "semi pro" fighter is. I've never seen one.

semi pro has a particular rule set that differs from pro mma

[Frost]

Lol at the irony. I think you probably hang around the mma fanboy bullshido forum more than you hang around competition teams. Producing amateur, semi pro, or pro fighters is easy. Having them do well is a lot more difficult. By this standard Alan Orr's wing chun (and all wing chun) is a complete failure. Is this the only valid standard by which to judge success?



I know you don't like wing chun. Why then do you post on the wing chun forum?

yep its not like ive posted the pro fighters ive trained with and the fight camps ive been a part of, or posted clips of myself sparring at the club they train at, or posted clips of myself repping said club in grappling comps over several years....oh wait my bad i have

nope judging it by those standards most wing chun is a waste of time, alan orrs wing chun and phils is better thaan most because it holds up to other arts in a limited rules enviroment

i post mainly to annoy kevin :) also to talk about wing chun in relation to grappling and MMA, and also because (gasp) i also do wing chun, i just dont happen to see it as my primary art, or that good as a stand alone stand up system,

[Wayfaring]

semi pro has a particular rule set that differs from pro mma

not something I've ever seen. wait, maybe in Great Britain they have open hand strikes to the head for amateurs and maybe the same also in a couple of states in the US. all the events my team fight in and the majority of the ones in the US have the exact same rules for pro and amateur MMA fights. so the amateurs fight under the same rules but don't get paid except for expense reimbursement. that's not a semi-pro, that's an amateur. there's basically no reason for a "semi-pro" category, because they don't pay the pros anywhere near enough in the smaller shows for there even to be a distinction.

but feel free to fill me in on how your world, wherever that is, operates. it sounds to me like basically you have zero experience in the professional fight world.

[Wayfaring]

Producing amateur, semi pro, or pro fighters is easy. Having them do well is a lot more difficult. By this standard Alan Orr's wing chun (and all wing chun) is a complete failure. Is this the only valid standard by which to judge success?


If producing fighters is so easy, feel free to post up the fight records for yourself and all the people you train. I'm sure they will have to be better than Alan's guys fight records the way you are talking.

[guy b.]

If producing fighters is so easy, feel free to post up the fight records for yourself and all the people you train. I'm sure they will have to be better than Alan's guys fight records the way you are talking.

Feel free to provide a clip of wing chun done in a way that you find acceptable. I am still waiting.

Anyone can enter the sports fighting game. It is winning that differentiates success and failure. This is not rocket science, even to someone of your limited intelligence.

[guy b.]

not something I've ever seen. wait, maybe in Great Britain they have open hand strikes to the head for amateurs and maybe the same also in a couple of states in the US. all the events my team fight in and the majority of the ones in the US have the exact same rules for pro and amateur MMA fights. so the amateurs fight under the same rules but don't get paid except for expense reimbursement. that's not a semi-pro, that's an amateur. there's basically no reason for a "semi-pro" category, because they don't pay the pros anywhere near enough in the smaller shows for there even to be a distinction.

but feel free to fill me in on how your world, wherever that is, operates. it sounds to me like basically you have zero experience in the professional fight world.

Ok, we can call Alan's guys amateurs if you like