Internal and Combat

[YouKnowWho]

We already have an "Internal and Health" thread. I want to start with an "Internal and Combat" thread here. Let's stay away from health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance, but concentrate on "combat and combat only" discussion.

Can anybody be able to put up a clip that demonstrate the "internal" principle applied on:

- punch (jab, cross, hook, uppercut, ...),
- kick (front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, hook kick, ...),
- lock (wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ...),
- throw (single leg, double legs, hip throw, leg twist, ...),
- ground skill (high mount, low mount, reverse mount, side mount, ...)?

Let's not talking about theory in this thread but try to find some evidence that prove "internal" can help "combat".

I know, I know, if internal can improve health, health can improve combat, internal can improve combat. That's indirect and not direct. Eating food and drinking water can improve health too. I won't say that water and food will have anything to do wth combat. Let's not to go through that path again.

[bawang]

"internal combat" came from the boxer rebellion. thats why its so crazy.

[MarathonTmatt]

Hi, awesome discussion. I think, to my understanding , this is a loaded (good) subject. many internal qigong sets have martial techniques/ applications in them although they have been promoted for health. so there could be an old person practising said qigong routine strictly for health who has never done martial art, and thus does not see the significance, and another person, who trains martial art, who can see through this. thats my thought on that.
also, training an internal style can only help ones combat efficiency, it will get some extra rooting and body mechanics soaked in to you, different styles will have different training methods, etc (hsing yi- quan's rooting on the back leg, or ba gua's footwork for instance), thus more power. and of course the more you can relax and be present in your body, the more power you can strike with, etc. etc. sorry i have no videos to post, i'm surprised i even know how to log on to the internet, lol. just throwing my 2 cents into the subject at large.

Thanks for engaging us,
-Matt.

[xinyidizi]

We already have an "Internal and Health" thread. I want to start with an "Internal and Combat" thread here. Let's stay away from health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance, but concentrate on "combat and combat only" discussion.

Can anybody be able to put up a clip that demonstrate the "internal" principle applied on:

- punch (jab, cross, hook, uppercut, ...),
- kick (front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, hook kick, ...),
- lock (wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ...),
- throw (single leg, double legs, hip throw, leg twist, ...),
- ground skill (high mount, low mount, reverse mount, side mount, ...)?

Let's not talking about theory in this thread but try to find some evidence that prove "internal" can help "combat".

I know, I know, if internal can improve health, health can improve combat, internal can improve combat. That's indirect and not direct. Eating food and drinking water can improve health too. I won't say that water and food will have anything to do wth combat. Let's not to go through that path again.

Chen village has kept a little bit of the combat aspect of Taiji in their training. In another thread you mentioned going to Chenjiagou and challenging their top guys. I am interested to know if you have done this before. If yes I would like to know your opinion as an experienced Shuaijiao coach about the good and bad things in their combat skills.

[PalmStriker]

:) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5PYoIqay84

[PalmStriker]

:) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_luDzL03vw

[YouKnowWho]

Chen village ... the good and bad things in their combat skills.

I had been in Chen Village with Adam Hsu's group for the 1991 1st Jinan International Traditional Martial Arts tournament. We had met many Taiji guys there but they were not interest in combat.

IMO, Chen Taiji leg skill such as cut, hook, lift, spring, twist, block, break, bite, sticky, scoop, sweep, ... , are not fully developed yet.

Taiji guys "want to take" but "not willing to give". How can you expect a girl to say "I love you" to you if you are not willing to say, "I love you" to her first? The attitude such as "If you don't move, I won't move, ..." can cause a Taiji guy to play his opponent's game (his opponent leads the fight) which is not good.

[YouKnowWho]

it will get some extra rooting ...
Of course the more ZZ that you do, the better static rooting that you can develop. IMO, the dynamic rooting which is much harder to develop, but much more useful can only be developed through the so called "external" training method (such as carry weigh with single leg uphill hopping).

[YouKnowWho]

:) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5PYoIqay84
This is a good clip but it still has the attitude, "push your opponent back, you win, and the fight is over".


:) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_luDzL03vw
If we look at his students demo, it's easy to tell that they had cross training in SC. I don't mind Taiji guys cross train SC, or use SC to interpreter Taiji. But I do mind that Taiji guys don't give that credit back to the SC system (It's like a guy adds "MT flying knee" into longfist and claims it's a longfist technique). There is no way that his student could figure out how to use "high padding horse" to counter "firemen's carry" within the boundary of the Taiji system.

[bawang]

Of course the more ZZ that you do, the better static rooting that you can develop. IMO, the dynamic rooting which is much harder to develop, but much more useful can only be developed through the so called "external" training method (such as carry weigh with single leg uphill hopping).


they lift weights behind closed doors.


Hi, awesome discussion. I think, to my understanding , this is a loaded (good) subject. many internal qigong sets have martial techniques/ applications in them although they have been promoted for health. so there could be an old person practising said qigong routine strictly for health who has never done martial art, and thus does not see the significance, and another person, who trains martial art, who can see through this. thats my thought on that.
also, training an internal style can only help ones combat efficiency, it will get some extra rooting and body mechanics soaked in to you, different styles will have different training methods, etc (hsing yi- quan's rooting on the back leg, or ba gua's footwork for instance), thus more power. and of course the more you can relax and be present in your body, the more power you can strike with, etc. etc. sorry i have no videos to post, i'm surprised i even know how to log on to the internet, lol. just throwing my 2 cents into the subject at large.

Thanks for engaging us,
-Matt.
no.

[xinyidizi]

Chen Taiji has a well developed combat training which doesn't involve pushing people around or waiting for your opponent to move first as it's stupid. They sometimes teach bits of it to outsiders but it's rare as they can make enough money by teaching them taolu, basic PH and sometimes their version shuaijiao if they pay more.

With heavy restrictions that they have had in China there was no way to have the original combat training of these arts in competitions and if they did nothing they couldn't call themselves martial arts that's why in the 90's Chen people adopted the sport SC format and techniques and in the last few years they gradually started to integrate sanda format and techniques as well. Xinyi/Xingyi people also had to change themselves and adapt to the new rules. The only choice that TCMA has today is SC/Kickboxing with TCMA flavor to become functional as a sport.

[xinyidizi]

they lift weights behind closed doors.


no.

They are very open about lifting weights. Go to Chen Xiaoxing, Wang Xian,... schools.

[bawang]

They are very open about lifting weights. Go to Chen Xiaoxing, Wang Xian,... schools.

if internal people arent scared of big slow muscles clogging up their qi we wouldnt have this conversation.




With heavy restrictions that they have had in China there was no way to have the original combat training of these arts in competitions

chen xiaowangs dad got executed over a horse. hes never gonna show anyting worthwhile to anyone outside chen village.

[xinyidizi]

if internal people arent scared of big slow muscles clogging up their qi we wouldnt have this conversation.

All these years in China with Chen guys and XY guys. I haven't heard of that before. Although some say it's better to train with heavy weapons instead.

[bawang]

All these years in China with Chen guys and XY guys. I haven't heard of that before. Although some say it's better to train with heavy weapons instead.

dont play dumb.

[xinyidizi]

dont play dumb.

That's stupid city scholar stuff by people who had never touched an opponent. Actual XYLH guys have always been strong muslims and Chen people were strong farmers before. Asking a farmer to lift weights is like asking a cheetah to do more treadmill.

[bawang]

That's stupid city scholar stuff by people who had never touched an opponent. Actual XYLH guys have always been strong muslims and Chen people were strong farmers before. Asking a farmer to lift weights is like asking a cheetah to do more treadmill.

chen family "farmer strength" is so strong that their patriarch failed the imperial exam. and surrendered when manchu invaded.

200 years later yang luchan learned their kung fu and failed the imperial exam again. LOL

[xinyidizi]

chen family "farmer strength" is so strong that their patriarch failed the imperial exam. and surrendered when manchu invaded.

I just want to know where you have heard that in XYLH or Chen taiji strong muscles were bad.

[Miqi]

Professional yiquan basic punch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oJHNMg8dGA&list=PL562F030F65F7C61F

Amateur demonstration of basic principle of yiquan shen fa for punching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt6bLfAbaW0&list=UUcuRoDnbDT75yWJwE3uY9Yg&index=18

Amateur demonstration of yiquan jab on punch bag - not a particularly heavy one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_AWa__g8JA&list=UUcuRoDnbDT75yWJwE3uY9Yg&index=31

Some other basic punches:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mmrDlhgEI8&list=UUcuRoDnbDT75yWJwE3uY9Yg&index=19

Forgive the fancy opening, it seemed really cool at the time. I'm 39 in these videos - I'm older, stronger and healthier now, so I think I cover the health aspect ok. It's a shame some people have invested so much in their daft reputations that they daren't show the reality. It's actually ok just to be a folk wushu practioner, with a hobby level. Our motto is "train to kill your enemies - but choose your enemies very carefully". Heh...

Buddha bless those who claimed such a high level that they're actually embarrassed now to show the truth of it. And especially bless those who think you can have theoretical skill.

All the best,
Miqi

[Dragonzbane76]

Dead horse....It's dead I tell you stop beating it....

[lkfmdc]

a couple of threads on here lately make me feel like doing a master thread of larger picture, but I have to teach and there is a big seminar in school today... it will have to wait

Let me say this... some good, some bad... guy is hitting a bag, he is wearing gloves (not "scared" of them like some are), he is showing basically jab and cross, good and basic and functional

Still too concerned with making it look like his style, with it being "internal" and missing some basic points...

My point has never been to say there is nothing of value in TCMA or that they didn't fight. Clearly they did. Clearly some of the older generations were quite good IN THEIR CONTEXT..... but there is just too much nonsense associated with TCMA,,, and the nonsense continues to grow the ****her we get from the original source and as time passes

[xinyidizi]

Taiji punishment for Japanese starting from 1:20:
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/72296246-1194433982.html


Now some real grandmaster level internal sparring:
http://www.56.com/u95/v_ODg2MDIxODA.html

[Robinhood]

We already have an "Internal and Health" thread. I want to start with an "Internal and Combat" thread here. Let's stay away from health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance, but concentrate on "combat and combat only" discussion.

Can anybody be able to put up a clip that demonstrate the "internal" principle applied on:

- punch (jab, cross, hook, uppercut, ...),
- kick (front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, hook kick, ...),
- lock (wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ...),
- throw (single leg, double legs, hip throw, leg twist, ...),
- ground skill (high mount, low mount, reverse mount, side mount, ...)?

Let's not talking about theory in this thread but try to find some evidence that prove "internal" can help "combat".

I know, I know, if internal can improve health, health can improve combat, internal can improve combat. That's indirect and not direct. Eating food and drinking water can improve health too. I won't say that water and food will have anything to do wth combat. Let's not to go through that path again.



JOHN, your constant want to see internal, really is pretty odd, you either are clueless, or bored to death ?
;)

[xinyidizi]

Xinyidizi, perhaps you take your racist sentiments back to weibo.

Sorry, I 'm not racist. and not Chinese. will delete that. There is too much anti Japanese TV series on TV. Qinnaing them reminded me of one of them.

[MarathonTmatt]

Of course the more ZZ that you do, the better static rooting that you can develop. IMO, the dynamic rooting which is much harder to develop, but much more useful can only be developed through the so called "external" training method (such as carry weigh with single leg uphill hopping).

yes sir, I very much appreciate what you just said.
:)

[MarathonTmatt]

no.

:p

oh, i get it. what is the point of a forum?, lol. word to your mother.

;)

[SavvySavage]

Taiji punishment for Japanese starting from 1:20:
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/72296246-1194433982.html


Now some real grandmaster level internal sparring:
http://www.56.com/u95/v_ODg2MDIxODA.html

You called the second clip real grandmaster level internal sparring. You should have called it "real grand pa level internal push hands." Those two old guys weren't sparring. They weren't hitting each other, throwing each other, joint lockings each other. Nothing. They were trying to push each other period end of report. They've probably never sparred before in their lives. I'm curious as to why you called this sorting and if you know what sparring is?

[xinyidizi]

You called the second clip real grandmaster level internal sparring. You should have called it "real grand pa level internal push hands." Those two old guys weren't sparring. They weren't hitting each other, throwing each other, joint lockings each other. Nothing. They were trying to push each other period end of report. They've probably never sparred before in their lives. I'm curious as to why you called this sorting and if you know what sparring is?


:rolleyes:

Do you know the guys?

[xinyidizi]

OK this one is more serious, starting at 3:09 :
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzI3Njc2OTY=.html


I really liked it when the kid figured out how to defeat the Gwai Lo twice his size.


(I'm a Gwai Lo too, so that's not racist)

[bawang]

I just want to know where you have heard that in XYLH or Chen taiji strong muscles were bad.

i never heard that from the chen family or the funny hats. im talking about "contemporary" western tai chi, the one that matters. chen family is ok with realistic training, but chen family is like 20 people.

[YouKnowWho]

"train to kill your enemies - but choose your enemies very carefully".

I love those clips that you put up. Thanks for sharing.

Just last week I asked a Chen Taiji instructor, "How will you use your Chen Taiji to kill?" We had very pleasant 2 hours discussion. To me, if one doesn't train "finish moves", he is not training TCMA. You just can't yield your opponent to death.


Dead horse....It's dead I tell you stop beating it....

If we drag "health" into this thread, you may be right. We try to collect evidence in this thread. We try not to argue in theory.

Miqi has put up some "internal" guys works on heavy bag clips that I have never seen before.

[bawang]

If we drag "health" into this thread, you may be right. We try to collect evidence in this thread. We try not to argue in theory.

Miqi has put up some "internal" guys works on heavy bag clips that I have never seen before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CSP3WR9duw

its the way internal sells itself and the people it attracts thats the problem

[YouKnowWho]

or bored to death ? ;)
If I don't start thread, I may even join in the "1850" discussion.

Since my health is great, I emphasize combat practice and I don't emphasize health training at this point in my life.

[YouKnowWho]

when you teach your student to never fight, you can never get challenged.
But to get challenge is good. you get chance to test your skill. The day that you die, your challenge fights may be the only memory that will go through your head before you exhale your last drop of your breath.

[YouKnowWho]

Still too concerned with making it look like his style, with it being "internal" and missing some basic points...
They still have too much "style bourdry in their head". Have you noticed that foot sweep is not used in all Taiji push hands? May be they think the "foot sweep" is too "external".

[bawang]

But to get challenge is good. you get chance to test your skill. The day that you die, your challenge fights may be the only memory that will go through your head before you exhale your last drop of your breath.

in the video i showed, do you think those people are fit for any kind of combat?

"internal arts" attracts psychotics and human garbage. crazy sh1t attracts crazy people.

[Mike Patterson]

:rolleyes:

This forum reminds me more and more of the cliche' of a soap opera.. step away for months at a time, come back and the story is still unchanged.

Once again, here are six full fights of people, albeit AMATEUR people, trained solely in Xingyi, Bagua and Chen Taiji by yours truly utilizing the concepts and methods in a resistant full contact venue.

There are no silly style boundaries, missing sweeps, throws, etc. in their performances, just good clean fighting from a traditional Internal Martial Arts background.

I mean, what do you expext when you talk about "internal" ... magical chi blasts or something? Internal martial arts are about the same thing any other martial art is about... learning how to apply the skillsets learned in life, be it combat on the leitai, in the street, or yes, against an unseen creeping disease.. hence the health emphasis in these systems in addition to combative training and discipline.

Most contemporary people have simply lost their roots. That does not invalidate the methodology.. it merely invalidates those that have lost their way. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLq6FXvgtRE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z47UfJd3g0k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEMus0p-_N8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a4H_iMoEAE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yviiLACfjK8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CikExyDNPRQ

Now, for me.. back to what is important... training.

[xinyidizi]

They still have too much "style bourdry in their head". Have you noticed that foot sweep is not used in all Taiji push hands? May be they think the "foot sweep" is too "external".

I don't understand, foot sweep is not that uncommon in Taiji. Are you talking about a specific kind of foot sweep?

[SavvySavage]

:rolleyes:

Do you know the guys?

The activity they were doing in the clip is self explanatory so it doesn't matter who they are.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't understand, foot sweep is not that uncommon in Taiji. Are you talking about a specific kind of foot sweep?

The foot sweep is simple. To push the head down (or shoulder) and to sweep the leg off the ground at the same time (2 points contact). I haven't seen any push hands clip that has foot sweep. Old saying said, "If you are good in foot sweep, you should be able to take care 80% of your opponent". Since your opponent has to step in and put weight on his leading leg to punch you, the opportunity for foot sweep is always there.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ashi+Barai+(Karate+foot+%2f+leg+sweep)&mid=804F61DF87C868B1923D804F61DF87C868B1923D&view=detail&FORM=VIRE1

[YouKnowWho]

Internal martial arts are about the same thing any other martial art is about... learning how to apply the skillsets learned in life, be it combat on the leitai, in the street, or ...
Those clips are exactly what we want to see, not just theory or health benefit.

[Robinhood]

The foot sweep is simple. To push the head down (or shoulder) and to sweep the leg off the ground at the same time (2 points contact). I haven't seen any push hands clip that has foot sweep. Old saying said, "If you are good in foot sweep, you should be able to take care 80% of your opponent". Since your opponent has to step in and put weight on his leading leg to punch you, the opportunity for foot sweep is always there.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ashi+Barai+(Karate+foot+%2f+leg+sweep)&mid=804F61DF87C868B1923D804F61DF87C868B1923D&view=detail&FORM=VIRE1

Not everyone puts weight on their front leg when striking.:rolleyes:

[MarathonTmatt]

Here is the announcement of a recent seminar I went to last december:
"Special Workshop
Qin Na Techniques and Practical Use
Presented by Master Gu Xin Fa, retired Chinese Military trainer and Police Academy coach.
He lives in Tianjin, China now has short visit in USA - Master Gu Xin Fa has taught Qin Na, Tai Chi, Qi Gong, and other skills used in catching criminals over his long career in military and police training.
He will present a special routine for practicing Qin Na, and Qin Na techniques and teach students how use Qin Na skill for practical use. Students will practice with partners.
Students will learn new skills for effective fighting, deflecting, and winning in a fighting situation.
Date: December 15, 2012: 11:00 A.M. to 5:00 P.M.
Location: Chinese Medicine for Health, 1564A Washington St. Holliston, MA"

Ok, he taught us one of his forms, which at my point in my training, helped to address a few things, so I'm glad I learned it and still drill it. The chin na was useful also, especially moving out of a chin na lock. When I did some BASIC push hands with this master, he said in chinese that if i didnt change my postural alignment he would continue to take advantage of me- that to me is one of the golden nuggets I can take away from push hands- checking my postural alignments, keep rotating, etc. Definitly not the say all/ end all, especially relative to combat, but a useful training tool no doubt.
Master Gu Xin Fa was sponsored by one of my teacher's, Dr. Aihan Kuhn, a chinese doctor who also promotes qigong/ tai ji. Chinese martial art and chinese medicine grew together, havent you ever seen iron monkey?. I also train traditional longfist, Hua Quan (Glorious Boxing/ China Fist), at another school location, and consider myself a serious strudent as far as that is concerned. Yes, I started my training in 2009 so I am a newbie, but hey I am also still young/ training daily. In sparring our teachers want us using our arms/legs/ etc in sets and the philosophy is "defend, disrupt and destroy." I enjoy the kickboxing energy at times, but also using throws/ takedowns, joint locks and yes, applying some of my push hands lessons into it. The "external" stance training from this style has also helped my rooting alot.
Hmm. One time I worked in a Thai restaurant before, and have been exposed to a little muay thai, at least seen the way they work some of the techniques, by an old man who has trained muay thai since he was a boy. I have gotten a thai massage before too, and was blown away that the way a thai boxer and a thai messeuer look at the body as a system IS THE SAME. It is the same way with the chinese and their arts, or at least was (in some cases still IS) traditionally. Some of the qigong sets I have learned from Dr. Aihan include sets performing reverse punches in slow motion being pulled back into chamber, a clear with a knee raise, raising the legs into various hooking/trapping/pulling postures, etc. I tell you true those qigong techniques can be martially applied- also- how about rotating the neck and upper body to avoid, say, a spear thrust? I trained qigong/ tai ji for 1 year and a half before breaking into longfist and other styles. Essentially i consider it a good foundation, at least i am not prone to do something stupid and hurt myself in training. in one of the first hua quan classes i took a few years ago, a student (who is no longer there) tried to kick me but i hooked his leg instead, and threw him down, using a technique straight out of the qigong routine I had been training. Anyway as they say, I dont put as much emphasis on my qigong anymore, what was appropriate for me to do at one point in time does not always stay consistent- I pretty much have a few qigong moves I keep that addresses what I need, and the hua quan training (a true internal/external style) can address the rest, whether its striking power, stance work, etc. also cross training in other styles, like developing a mean "beng quan" from hsing yi quan- even if it means thats what i have to do to get a real good vertical punch- hey, i'll take it!!! I am new to this forum, I hope know one minds me ranting about what insights i've come across in my training so far. Later,
-Matt.

[xinyidizi]

The foot sweep is simple. To push the head down (or shoulder) and to sweep the leg off the ground at the same time (2 points contact). I haven't seen any push hands clip that has foot sweep. Old saying said, "If you are good in foot sweep, you should be able to take care 80% of your opponent". Since your opponent has to step in and put weight on his leading leg to punch you, the opportunity for foot sweep is always there.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ashi+Barai+(Karate+foot+%2f+leg+sweep)&mid=804F61DF87C868B1923D804F61DF87C868B1923D&view=detail&FORM=VIRE1

Does this count?

http://v.ku6.com/show/1UoFfW6DiKXOzKegr7ZNIQ...html

[xinyidizi]

The activity they were doing in the clip is self explanatory so it doesn't matter who they are.

That's the point.

[lkfmdc]

Does this count?

http://v.ku6.com/show/1UoFfW6DiKXOzKegr7ZNIQ...html

The sad thing here, and indicative of the problem with those who practice TCMA these days, is that I have no idea if you are being serious or being sarcastic

Do you not realize that thing is completely fake

[xinyidizi]

It is partly fake but it's not about this particular competition. The low roundhouse and footsweep are common in competitions now, not enough videos though.

[lkfmdc]

It is partly fake but it's not about this particular competition. The low roundhouse and footsweep is common in competitions now, not enough videos though.

it is completely fake.... the fact that China still tries to push crap like this is so sad...

If your point is that roundkicks and sweeps exist in TCMA, ok, that I have no problem with... they have always been there

[xinyidizi]

it is completely fake.... the fact that China still tries to push crap like this is so sad...

If your point is that roundkicks and sweeps exist in TCMA, ok, that I have no problem with... they have always been there

That's mostly a free style demo for promoting Wang Xian's school however Wang Zhanjun has some skills in real combat.

[lkfmdc]

That's mostly a free style demo for promoting Wang Xian's school however Wang Zhanjun has some skills in real combat.

you are sorting of missing my point... if you have real skills, show them! Not some completely obvious faked demo and trying to sell it as a real match...

that TV event came about after "san da wang"... a lot in the so called "traditional community" thought san da was "too violent" (what they really meant was it was too real and they had none of their own students who could keep up in that arena).. it's a truly sad attempt to sell the fake dream, the ilusion of ancient mastes who show the "real stuff"

[xinyidizi]

you are sorting of missing my point... if you have real skills, show them! Not some completely obvious faked demo and trying to sell it as a real match...

that TV event came about after "san da wang"... a lot in the so called "traditional community" thought san da was "too violent" (what they really meant was it was too real and they had none of their own students who could keep up in that arena).. it's a truly sad attempt to sell the fake dream, the ilusion of ancient mastes who show the "real stuff"

Dude. In Chinese they say 死马当活马医。 TCMA is almost lost. Just be grateful that there is a little bit of it left is semi fake competitions.

[lkfmdc]

Dude. In Chinese they say 死马当活马医。 TCMA is almost lost. Just be grateful that there is a little bit of it left is semi fake competitions.

they can say whatever they want... doesn't make it true

the issue is that people THINK TCMA is supposed to look a certain way, even when there is ZERO evidence it was ever that way

Go back 100 years and see how those "masters" fought... they fought with what here is derogatorilly called "kickboxing" while the "internal masters" criticized it from the seating a few rows back.

Do you know and/or have trained with any of the pre Civil War generation?? They guys who fought and killed with this stuff? I have trained and knew quite a few... they most certainly hated that sort of crap, didn't think TCMA looked like a Shaw Brothers Movie

Look at what Shihfu Patterson produced.... FIGHTERS, not chi blasts

[SavvySavage]

That's the point.

You called that clip SPARRING. You are confused if you think that was sparring.

[xinyidizi]

they can say whatever they want... doesn't make it true

the issue is that people THINK TCMA is supposed to look a certain way, even when there is ZERO evidence it was ever that way

Go back 100 years and see how those "masters" fought... they fought with what here is derogatorilly called "kickboxing" while the "internal masters" criticized it from the seating a few rows back.

Do you know and/or have trained with any of the pre Civil War generation?? They guys who fought and killed with this stuff? I have trained and knew quite a few... they most certainly hated that sort of crap, didn't think TCMA looked like a Shaw Brothers Movie

Look at what Shihfu Patterson produced.... FIGHTERS, not chi blasts

Good as amateurs but I wouldn't say "FIGHTERS". In Henan I have seen much better stuff but because of face they can just do their real competitions behind closed doors. At their best they are close to average Sanda level which is obviously not enough because of how they have promoted themselves. It's a very easy and profitable business and one embarrassing video online can ruin it all.

[xinyidizi]

You called that clip SPARRING. You are confused if you think that was sparring.

Just figure out how someone can make millions of dollars with that.

[lkfmdc]

In Henan I have seen much better stuff but because of face they can just do their real competitions behind closed doors.



:rolleyes:

cough*bull*****cough

[SavvySavage]

Just figure out how someone can make millions of dollars with that.

By tricking gullible students like you into thinking that is high level sparring? He could trick a few hundred guys just like you I to paying him thousands of dollars.

[SavvySavage]

That's mostly a free style demo for promoting Wang Xian's school however Wang Zhanjun has some skills in real combat.

Have you ever seen someone get knocked down so many times in a boxing match? Or an mma match? No. Because those matches are real. That "free style demo clip" is fake as hell. The guy wearing black and white wants even attempting any attacks besides his side thrust kick. You can't be serious.

[xinyidizi]

By tricking gullible students like you into thinking that is high level sparring? He could trick a few hundred guys just like you I to paying him thousands of dollars.

Take it is, I was joking.

[xinyidizi]

Have you ever seen someone get knocked down so many times in a boxing match? Or an mma match? No. Because those matches are real. That "free style demo clip" is fake as hell. The guy wearing black and white wants even attempting any attacks besides his side thrust kick. You can't be serious.

When Wang Zhanjun was younger he had his share of knocking down and breaking the bones of people. And dude we are talking about what we have in the world of TCMA. If you want to compare it to UFC fighters then we should just close down all these forums and schools.

[Mike Patterson]

Good as amateurs but I wouldn't say "FIGHTERS".


Really... I would LOVE to see you step onto the platform with any one of them. Hell, I'll wager I have GIRLS who would change your perspective within a minute or two of engaging. ;)

[lkfmdc]

Really... I would LOVE to see you step onto the platform with any one of them. Hell, I'll wager I have GIRLS who would change your perspective within a minute or two of engaging. ;)

Shihfu Patterson, I wouldn't really respond much to this guy.. his profile isn't that filled out but he seems to be yet anotehr of the Henana Shaolin Kool Aid drinkers...

[xinyidizi]

Really... I would LOVE to see you step onto the platform with any one of them. Hell, I'll wager I have GIRLS who would change your perspective within a minute or two of engaging. ;)

I never said that I'm more than an amateur hobbyist. I respect you for training them and you have done a good job but I have seen better fighters in comparison.

[lkfmdc]

I never said that I'm more than an amateur hobbyist. I respect you for training them and you have done a good job but I have seen better fighters in comparison.

Based upon what you have posted here, I suggest there is something with your vision.....

[YouKnowWho]

Does this count?

http://v.ku6.com/show/1UoFfW6DiKXOzKegr7ZNIQ...html

At 2.06, it's a foot sweep. I believe this clip is a demo (set up). It's not a real fight.

[xinyidizi]

At 2.06, it's a foot sweep. I believe this clip is a demo (set up). It's not a real fight.

As my teacher told me that year they wanted to promote Wang Xian's school. They only allowed Wang's son and a few of his students plus a few non-fighters from outside of Chen village. The fights between the people of their own school were fake but about this one I'm not sure. Even for a fake fight it's too sloppy. It's either fake or probably the guy just hasn't fought before in his life.

[YouKnowWho]

Not everyone puts weight on their front leg when striking.:rolleyes:

You still have to put one leg infront of another. Even if you may just put 0% weight as empty stance, you will be vulunable for scoop.

The shin bite, scoop, sticky kick, foot sweep are "4 in 1 and 1 in 4". This is just part of the "leg skill" that I was talking about.

[Mike Patterson]

Sorry.. but the statement;


I never said that I'm more than an amateur hobbyist.

combined with;


I have seen better fighters in comparison.

add up to..

you don't have a clue what you are looking at and are in no position what-so-ever to judge.

Anyone who as not fought at, or trained fighters for, a competitive level is incapable of judging what is good from bad fighting. Your being a "hobbyist" does not put you on an equal footing with people that have coached fighters to success. You simply do not have "the eyes" to really know one way or another. The proof of this is found within both what you have stated and, what you say you are unsure of, with regard to the clips posted.

Contrary to belief by some people on this and other forums...Yes.. you DO have to have actual experience to know. Being a hobbyist/practitioner does not and never will qualify you, or anyone else who thinks as you do, to be able to judge.

David is right... you need help with your vision.. and a great deal of help at that. But thanks for your "respect" as lord knows that is the stuff for which I live. :rolleyes:

[xinyidizi]

Sorry.. but the statement;



combined with;



add up to..

you don't have a clue what you are looking at and are in no position what-so-ever to judge.

Anyone who as not fought at, or trained fighters for, a competitive level is incapable of judging what is good from bad fighting. Your being a "hobbyist" does not put you on an equal footing with people that have coached fighters to success. You simply do not have "the eyes" to really know one way or another. The proof of this is found within both what you have stated and, what you say you are unsure of, with regard to the clips posted.

Contrary to belief by some people on this and other forums...Yes.. you DO have to have actual experience to know. Being a hobbyist/practitioner does not and never will qualify you, or anyone else who thinks as you do, to be able to judge.

David is right... you need help with your vision.. and a great deal of help at that. But thanks for your "respect" as lord knows that is the stuff for which I live. :rolleyes:

The world would become a much better place for all of us if someday you trained "FIGHTERS" who could beat up UFC champions with just taiji, bagua and xingyi. Until then these endless discussions about IMA or even TCMA will continue for ever with no proof of them being anything more than amateur fighting. So good luck and personally I hope you can make IMA proud by training such fighters.

[Dragonzbane76]

The world would become a much better place for all of us if someday you trained "FIGHTERS" who could beat up UFC champions with just taiji, bagua and xingyi

lol this statement made me laugh. not for the fact of the listed MA's. but the fact that you seem to have a chip on your shoulder.

[xinyidizi]

lol this statement made me laugh. not for the fact of the listed MA's. but the fact that you seem to have a chip on your shoulder.

I guess it's a TCMA thing. I want to be serious but I can't. I want to be sarcastic but I can't either.

[David Jamieson]

At 2.06, it's a foot sweep. I believe this clip is a demo (set up). It's not a real fight.

Agreed, but do you think that part of the dynamics of the defense is to go with and return from the incoming strikes?

In which case, that would be difficult.

[YouKnowWho]

Agreed, but do you think that part of the dynamics of the defense is to go with and return from the incoming strikes?

In which case, that would be difficult.

Are you talking about the counters for foot sweep? You can

- pull your foot over the sweeping leg.
- turn your shin bore into the sweeping leg.

Both will require body spinning.

A fake demo is easy to detect. When someone chokes your throat, instead of trying to use your hands to break the throat hold, you drop your hands next to your legs and shake like a fish, that's fake. When you can see some abnormal respond, that's fake. In that clip, his opponent made mistakes that even a beginner won't make those mistakes.

[Mike Patterson]

The world would become a much better place for all of us if someday you trained "FIGHTERS" who could beat up UFC champions with just taiji, bagua and xingyi. Until then these endless discussions about IMA or even TCMA will continue for ever with no proof of them being anything more than amateur fighting. So good luck and personally I hope you can make IMA proud by training such fighters.

Someone else will have to carry that torch, dude. My era pre-dates professional MMA.

But that does not change the fact that fighting at any competitive level is still fighting at a competitive level, amateur or otherwise. And it also does not change the fact that until you, or any other "hobbyist" that thinks like you do, steps into a ring of ANY kind or venue and wins. Or coaches anyone in ANY kind of competitive venue to win (I have done both, btw) their opinion on fighting at any level means exactly ZERO to me.

For now, your ignorance is both telling and laughable. Come back and talk to me when you are more than just a "hobbyist" and perhaps I will listen.

[wenshu]

Anyone who as not fought at, or trained fighters for, a competitive level is incapable of judging what is good from bad fighting.



Contrary to belief by some people on this and other forums...Yes.. you DO have to have actual experience to know. Being a hobbyist/practitioner does not and never will qualify you, or anyone else who thinks as you do, to be able to judge.


until you, or any other "hobbyist" that thinks like you do, steps into a ring of ANY kind or venue and wins. Or coaches anyone in ANY kind of competitive venue to win (I have done both, btw) their opinion on fighting at any level means exactly ZERO to me.

"Everybody loves the smell of their own taint."

- A.J Liebling

[Mike Patterson]

"Everybody loves the smell of their own taint."

- A.J Liebling



When faced with, and pressured by, a worthy adversary...
Rather than rise to your level of expectation,
You will instead sink to your level of true ability.

- Mike Patterson

[wenshu]

When faced with, and pressured by, a worthy adversary...
Rather than rise to your level of expectation,
You will instead sink to your level of true ability.

- Mike Patterson

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do more like?

[Robinhood]

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do more like?
..
.?? ...????? What, hitting the wine a little early today?

[Lucas]

for with to when happens does winter dogs in tuesday after fires.

[Yum Cha]

When faced with, and pressured by, a worthy adversary...
Rather than rise to your level of expectation,
You will instead sink to your level of true ability.

- Mike Patterson

I agree, but take another perspective.

Your training and fundamental basics will save you from the misadventures of your aggression and imagination. When you can learn to simply rely on those basics and lose the misadventure, you are at your best.

[PalmStriker]

When faced with, and pressured by, a worthy adversary...
Rather than rise to your level of expectation,
You will instead sink to your level of true ability.

- Mike Patterson

One who sees all things with Buddha Mind knows that there is no hard, and no soft, only the path. :)

[Miqi]

I'm not knocking assessing oneself on a scale that runs from external to internal - whatever works for you. But, not that it will stop people who need the internet to project a fantasy, but there is also a scale with these two guys at either end of it. It's worth considering where you - we - are on that scale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akN9eRTBE5Y

This video has a disturbing ending. If that don't warn you, nothin' will. But interestingly, the BJJ has superb wushu - I mean, rather than BJJ, actual proper san da style wushu - and the "kung fu" guy could well be your average anonymous internet internal wushu hoaxer who took the hobby-fantasy just one step too far.

[rett]

Spoiler on Miqi's video
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
.
.
From the info blurb on that video it was the young BJJ guy who challenged the old out-of-shape TCMA guy. It's not like the old guy had some kind of unrealistic fantasy about his skills. Also, it was a vengeance match which I guess explains why the young challenger didn't respect the old guy's attempts to tap out.

[lkfmdc]

This bout was carried out the day on October 17 in Colombia between Luis Carreño (challenging) vs Kung Fu Master (Desafiado)
This man was challenged to a fight without rules and without time for the crime of PEDOPHILIA. This man was caught in the Act, sexually harassing a 12-year-old girl and was challenged under the martial codes to a bout of honor...Also is Pastor of a church and Chinese martial arts practitioner for more than 20 years...


I think the guy got off EASY all things considered.....

[Miqi]

From the info blurb on that video it was the young BJJ guy who challenged the old out-of-shape TCMA guy. It's not like the old guy had some kind of unrealistic fantasy about his skills. Also, it was a vengeance match which I guess explains why the young challenger didn't respect the old guy's attempts to tap out.


Yeah whatever - I'm sure the MMA guy was so mad for no reason.

You know, we're all probably closer to the fantasist end of the specturm than the other end. It's just that some are so obnoxiously convinced that they're not - the "reality" is going to be either something like this video, or them crying sayig "I didn't mean it, I was only joking, I was just shooting my mouth off on the internet".

You know what, even if young MMA psycho is just goig to leather you for daring to calll yourself a martial artist, it might be wise to take that as your reality check, rather than trying to patch it by calling him a bad man. Yeah - he is a bad man. A very bad man. And I don't think he gives a crap about your Qi.

[lkfmdc]

The fat guy represents everything that's bad about the hobby-fantasist. He's only better than the rest in that he dared to test the fantasy - although, that is bad too, because he could have got himself killed, and probably encourages his students into similar danger.

He is one end of the spectrum, and an apt representative for every obnoxious "internal martial arts expert" on the internet. The only thing that was missing was a BS distraction to prevent the lesson being learned. So thanks for supplying that.

Yes I'm sure the MMA guy was so mad for no reason, and the fantasist entirely innocent. It's also true that the MMA guy wasn't receptive to the other guy's qi, lol. So, actually, that even proves that the TCMA guy's method was better. Heh...

none of what you are saying applies to the video, read the description....

[David Jamieson]

A young fit guy beating up an old fat guy is proof of nothing.
Jesus Christ what do you expect?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the guy got off EASY all things considered.....

Agreed.
Far too easy.

[Miqi]

none of what you are saying applies to the video, read the description....

Lol. You almost make me feel stupid for suggesting that these two men are a good example of the two ends of the scale in the martial arts world, and a good example of what happens when those two ends meet. Fortunately, it turns out I was right all along.

[MightyB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akN9eRTBE5Y



All in all, pretty bad @rse! Nice striking, great ground finish. I was really impressed with his striking.

[David Jamieson]

Yeah whatever - I'm sure the MMA guy was so mad for no reason.

You know, we're all probably closer to the fantasist end of the specturm than the other end. It's just that some are so obnoxiously convinced that they're not - the "reality" is going to be either something like this video, or them crying sayig "I didn't mean it, I was only joking, I was just shooting my mouth off on the internet".

You know what, even if young MMA psycho is just goig to leather you for daring to calll yourself a martial artist, it might be wise to take that as your reality check, rather than trying to patch it by calling him a bad man. Yeah - he is a bad man. A very bad man. And I don't think he gives a crap about your Qi.

You are projecting your own ideas on others here. We are in a forum of a pretty eclectic group. Some guys come from Kung Fu and are now pretty dedicated to mma. Some other guys are kung fu guys that have stuck to the traditional path.

Some guys are boxers, wrestlers, karateka, Judoka, you name it and they buzz around in this place. Some guys have successful schools here, some are well known celebs in the genre and so on.

Speak for yourself in other words. We are all doing what we do in our training regimens according to what we enjoy. We're not trying to identify with each other so much as we are identifying with each other or outright rejecting each other. As is the way in martial arts. :p

[Miqi]

You know what, now that I know what the fight was actually about, I retract everything - the kung fu master actually won convincingly. LMCO. The important thing is that nothing important was learned. I don't think I have much common ground with most of you guys, to be honest. But all the best.

[David Jamieson]

Translation of description:


This Fight was done on the 17th of October in Colombia between Luis Carreno (challenging) vs Kung Fu Master (Challenged)
This man was challenged to a match with no rules and no time for the crime of pedophilia. This Lord was caught in the act, sexually molesting a girl of 12 years and was challenged under martial codes of honor combat .... also is pastor of a church and Chinese martial arts practitioner for over 20 years. .

[lkfmdc]

Translation of description:

Which I already put in this thread about a page ago -

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1228404&postcount=84

[lkfmdc]

I don't think I have much common ground with most of you guys



considering most of us can READ, I'd say that's true :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

Which I already put in this thread about a page ago -

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1228404&postcount=84

What can I say. It bore repeating.

[lkfmdc]

all things considered the BJJ guy showed remarkable restraint... I can't honestly say I would have showed so much restraint in a case like this

Ironically, the so called "mma guy" showed more of the tcma VALUES we all like to talk about than the so called "master" (who was really a pedoscumbag)

[David Jamieson]

all things considered the BJJ guy showed remarkable restraint... I can't honestly say I would have showed so much restraint in a case like this

Ironically, the so called "mma guy" showed more of the tcma VALUES we all like to talk about than the so called "master" (who was really a pedoscumbag)

Or so the video description says anyway. We don't know if that is true at all and it could just be a justification for a young guy beating up a fat old one. I am pretty sure that police do not accept child molestation in colombia either...so...

I'm not going to say that it's not true, or true, I'll just say that it is what it is.

[lkfmdc]

Or so the video description says anyway. We don't know if that is true at all and it could just be a justification for a young guy beating up a fat old one. I am pretty sure that police do not accept child molestation in colombia either...so...

I'm not going to say that it's not true, or true, I'll just say that it is what it is.

It is WELL documented that cases of child molestation and sexual assault are widely ignored in many cultures around the world, look at India recently...

[David Jamieson]

It is WELL documented that cases of child molestation and sexual assault are widely ignored in many cultures around the world, look at India recently...

That may be so, but it doesn't have anything to do with what we were watching and whether that explanation of it really is valid. Like I said, it could just be an excuse for what would look bad otherwise IE: young buck beating up old fat guy for whatever reason.

As you well know, old fat guy ain't a kung fu man. It's obvious just looking at him. people call themselves all sorts of things without ever being that.

Seems weird to just let him walk away. Especially in a wild west place like Colombia.

[Lucas]

I think the youtube videos where people fight bums and then title it 'kung fu master' is pretty stupid and misleading. does anyone think that joker is a master of anything other than baiting?

really?!?!

the video should be titled 'such and such' vs old fat child molester.

[lkfmdc]

old fat guy ain't a kung fu man. It's obvious just looking at him. people call themselves all sorts of things without ever being that.



kung fu weirdo from Columbia with no apparent skills, maybe it's hardwork :p:D

[Lucas]

kung fu weirdo from Columbia with no apparent skills, maybe it's hardwork :p:D

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lkfmdc]

I think the youtube videos where people fight bums and then title it 'kung fu master' is pretty stupid and misleading. does anyone think that joker is a master of anything other than baiting?



clearly video should be titles vs "hardwork" ;)

[Lucas]

clearly video should be titles vs "hardwork" ;)

lol!!!!!! i would pay for that

[Dragonzbane76]

kung fu weirdo from Columbia with no apparent skills, maybe it's hardwork

His internal chow gar skillz at work. :p

[rett]

Yeah whatever - I'm sure the MMA guy was so mad for no reason.

You know, we're all probably closer to the fantasist end of the specturm than the other end. It's just that some are so obnoxiously convinced that they're not - the "reality" is going to be either something like this video, or them crying sayig "I didn't mean it, I was only joking, I was just shooting my mouth off on the internet".

You know what, even if young MMA psycho is just goig to leather you for daring to calll yourself a martial artist, it might be wise to take that as your reality check, rather than trying to patch it by calling him a bad man. Yeah - he is a bad man. A very bad man. And I don't think he gives a crap about your Qi.

I see you wrote one irate post and then edited it to this other irate post.

You're obviously upset and are projecting a lot onto what I wrote. I see this as reflecting your own thinking, rather than mine. Come back when you've cooled down dude.

[YouKnowWho]

A young fit guy beating up an old fat guy is proof of nothing.
Jesus Christ what do you expect?

This is why you (general YOU) just can't stop training all the way through your old age. It's terrible that when you are 80 years old, a 20 years old knocks on your door and beat you up. If you let youself to be fat like the guy in that clip, you deserve to get beaten up.

[bawang]

A young fit guy beating up an old fat guy is proof of nothing.
Jesus Christ what do you expect?

expect 4 ounce to defeat 1000 pounds

[A BIONIC LEG]

So I'm probably totally missing the point of this thread, but could someone please explain the difference between "internal and external"?

Bang, you've said something a couple of times about it coming from the boxer rebellion and its total bs ( sorry if I misquote you, I don't want to put words in your mouth) but I would really like your imput.

And Gene you said to check out your book which I did but (I bow my head in shame) have not finished the book (crap tone of info for an uneducated, infant of a wish he could even call himself a martial artist). Is there a particular chapter I should be looking at.



I hope I don't get to off topic here, but to me internal KF (or MA what have you) is having such an intimate knowledge of the inter workings of your own body that you can command it to do psychotic things within the confines of physics. Obviously I'm not talking about stupid flying bs but I think you get my point. I also understand that there is a ridiculous amount of training involved get to that point (I.e. mastering a 2 in punch).

Am I wayyyy of the mark?

[bawang]

So I'm probably totally missing the point of this thread, but could someone please explain the difference between "internal and external"?



shaolin kung fu oral teaching says "a man who trains inner power looks soft like cotton, but can instantly become hard as iron."

shaolin boxing sutra says "a man who looks like he doesnt train boxing, looking like a farmer or teenager, can make his muscles instantly become hard as iron, this is the secret of the killer."





Bang, you've said something a couple of times about it coming from the boxer rebellion and its total bs ( sorry if I misquote you, I don't want to put words in your mouth) but I would really like your imput.


manchu prince duan was a big head in boxer rebellion. tai chi founder yang luchan was part of his retinue.

[Robinhood]

This is why you (general YOU) just can't stop training all the way through your old age. It's terrible that when you are 80 years old, a 20 years old knocks on your door and beat you up. If you let youself to be fat like the guy in that clip, you deserve to get beaten up.

If you only have offensive skills, that will happen, the older you get , the worse it will be.

[Lucas]

Are you saying that if you only have offensive skills you will become fat?

[David Jamieson]

Gonna go out on a limb and say that the fat dude maybe says he's this or that, but it is more than obvious that he is none of the above.

I seriously doubt there is any kung fu training in his background of any merit.
Even two or three years of serious training will show in someone.

That guy merely looks like a fat dude getting beat up by a guy half his age and 1/3 his body fat.

[YouKnowWho]

If you only have offensive skills, that will happen, the older you get , the worse it will be.

Offense is the best defense. When US missiles flew toward Iraq, we didn't see any Iraq missiles flew back to US.

You just can't "soft" your opponent to death.

[Yum Cha]

Gonna go out on a limb and say that the fat dude maybe says he's this or that, but it is more than obvious that he is none of the above.

I seriously doubt there is any kung fu training in his background of any merit.
Even two or three years of serious training will show in someone.

That guy merely looks like a fat dude getting beat up by a guy half his age and 1/3 his body fat.

yup.
Threw two little jabs and took a ritual ass kicking from someone he knew he couldn't beat, and only hoped he wouldn't be beaten too badly.

I think of internal energy as power created by core muscles, mental focus and breathing in a coordinated manner and applying it through your extremities. The more control and coordination and timing you have, the less brute force you need to apply from your arms and legs. Thus, you use less energy to accomplish the same results, or you have more energy on demand. Relaxed mental focus is also part of it, to my mind.

Bionic Leg - How does the Psychotic part fit in? In believing you can generate magic chi balls of fire?

[Lucas]

I'm a professional Space Cowboy.

[bawang]

I'm a professional Space Cowboy.

i am dinosaur soldier. but sometimes they call me flute cop.

[A BIONIC LEG]

I think of internal energy as power created by core muscles, mental focus and breathing in a coordinated manner and applying it through your extremities. The more control and coordination and timing you have, the less brute force you need to apply from your arms and legs. Thus, you use less energy to accomplish the same results, or you have more energy on demand. Relaxed mental focus is also part of it, to my mind.

Bionic Leg - How does the Psychotic part fit in? In believing you can generate magic chi balls of fire?[/QUOTE]


Thanks man, I think you acctually helped me a little in my search for an answer.

When it comes to using the tearm "phychotic" I might of used the tearm wrong do describe some of the techniques I've seen in my travles (I was a little drunk when I posted that last night :) ). But I'm refering to things like Iron Shirt, (spear demo) Iron Crotch, hell even the two inch punch (yeah yeah I know it is alittle bit of a pop culture cliche but I am still facinated with it).

I also get that techniques that would fall under the Iron Body catagory do require years of body conditioning.

As I'm typing this the wheels are spinning faster than a hamster in a wheel on speed.

So are you saying that internal is more about breath and absoulute relaxation of mind and body?

[MightyB]

I thought the Grandmaster Wang Xiang-Zhai (1885-1963) Interview thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65902)would generate more discussion, but I did make the mistake of putting it on the internal and not the general forum.

Anyway - it seems he liked two things, internal cultivation and fisticuffs and pretty much eliminated all else from his practice. His interview (http://neigong.net/2008/05/29/grandmaster-wang-xiang-zhai-1885-1963/) was pretty scathing about his contemporaries. It sounds a lot like the forum talk as of late and it was written quite some time ago. anyway...

My take on it was that he didn't like the classifications of internal or external either. He seemed to describe the major difference in terms of the ideal approach to training. External was more of "if he does this, then you do that" style of training for newbies, and Internal was more spontaneous with spontaneous reaction being the ideal for both.

Again my take from the interview (http://neigong.net/2008/05/29/grandmaster-wang-xiang-zhai-1885-1963/), Fighting was supposed to be the first goal.

[A BIONIC LEG]

Thanks Mighty, I can see that. Someone one the page once said (probably quoting some else that coined the phrase) when the stuff hits the fans you will always go to your most basic form of training. So if your most basic form is circle back fist or in my case, "basic salutation", that is as spontaneous as its going to get.


I hate beating a dead horse but I will probably turn this poor thing into pulp before useful fertilizer, but I will continue to try and figure out the answer to this friggin equation. Which will probably take my life time.... And I'm drunk again... Hey, whose up for drunkin boxing :)

[A BIONIC LEG]

manchu prince duan was a big head in boxer rebellion. tai chi founder yang luchan was part of his retinue.[/QUOTE]

Ok so now I need to do some research, so how does that relate to coining the term "internal or external"?

[lkfmdc]

I thought the Grandmaster Wang Xiang-Zhai (1885-1963) Interview thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65902)would generate more discussion,



it's like so much of what is posted/discussed here... people don't want to rearange their delicately placed world views, it makes them uncomforatable

I laugh when people here try to pass off controversy in TCMA as "those MMA guys"... Wang wasn't an "MMA guy", he was a TCMA master.

These debates have a long history in China, a long history in the traditions. There is definitely something in the TCMA tradition that leads it astray

[Frost]

I thought the Grandmaster Wang Xiang-Zhai (1885-1963) Interview thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65902)would generate more discussion, but I did make the mistake of putting it on the internal and not the general forum.

Anyway - it seems he liked two things, internal cultivation and fisticuffs and pretty much eliminated all else from his practice. His interview (http://neigong.net/2008/05/29/grandmaster-wang-xiang-zhai-1885-1963/) was pretty scathing about his contemporaries. It sounds a lot like the forum talk as of late and it was written quite some time ago. anyway...

My take on it was that he didn't like the classifications of internal or external either. He seemed to describe the major difference in terms of the ideal approach to training. External was more of "if he does this, then you do that" style of training for newbies, and Internal was more spontaneous with spontaneous reaction being the ideal for both.

Again my take from the interview (http://neigong.net/2008/05/29/grandmaster-wang-xiang-zhai-1885-1963/), Fighting was supposed to be the first goal.

you read it the same way i do lol, and it wont get much discussion because as diavid has said people dont like their world views shattered

the mere fact that almost a centuiry later things are still the same, or even worse, than when he made these comments is telling

[A BIONIC LEG]

So I jus did a quick search on the boxer rebellion and now I think I found my disappointing answer.... "Don't ask the questions you don't want the answers to", right?

This is what I gathered from reading just a few paragraphs from wiki (yeah I know not a valuable source but I wanted something quick, kind of like a hot pocket, not all the nutrition bus something to hold you over until you get to hometown buffet) the boxers were a group of individuals that did not want western influence (which is not important for the argument) and believed that through training one could be impervious to western weapons (I.e. cannon fire gun fire ect). And this the birth of internal martial training was born, which also brought about the birth of iron body ( as a whole ). Am I any bit correct in my assumptions (please for the love of God tell me I'm not).

[Dragonzbane76]

it's like so much of what is posted/discussed here... people don't want to rearange their delicately placed world views, it makes them uncomforatable

and putting yourself in uncomfortable positions is usually were people learn the most.

[lkfmdc]

and putting yourself in uncomfortable positions is usually were people learn the most.

that's what I told her ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thought the Grandmaster Wang Xiang-Zhai (1885-1963) Interview thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65902)would generate more discussion, but I did make the mistake of putting it on the internal and not the general forum.

Anyway - it seems he liked two things, internal cultivation and fisticuffs and pretty much eliminated all else from his practice. His interview (http://neigong.net/2008/05/29/grandmaster-wang-xiang-zhai-1885-1963/) was pretty scathing about his contemporaries. It sounds a lot like the forum talk as of late and it was written quite some time ago. anyway...

My take on it was that he didn't like the classifications of internal or external either. He seemed to describe the major difference in terms of the ideal approach to training. External was more of "if he does this, then you do that" style of training for newbies, and Internal was more spontaneous with spontaneous reaction being the ideal for both.

Again my take from the interview (http://neigong.net/2008/05/29/grandmaster-wang-xiang-zhai-1885-1963/), Fighting was supposed to be the first goal.

Bang on dude.

[YouKnowWho]

External was more of "if he does this, then you do that" style of training for newbies, and Internal was more spontaneous with spontaneous reaction being the ideal for both.

When you talk about the

- striking art, the principle approach may work better than the technique approach. When your opponent moves in from 5 feet away and tries to punch at your face,, your defense and counter is unlimited.

- throwing art, the technique approach will work better than the principle approach (find the right key to open the right lock). When your opponent has controlled your upper body and uses his leg to attack your leg, your option is limited. When your opponent uses his right leg to hook your left leg, your best counter is to use your right leg to knee lift his attacking leg. You then drop your right leg and attack his left standing leg. All the other counters are not proper at that particular moment. It does fit into the pattern, "If you inner hook me, I'll knee lift your attacking leg and then ...".

I just don't think it's proper to look at the "internal and external" issue only from the striking art point of view.

[YouKnowWho]

Fighting was supposed to be the first goal.
This is the main point of this discussion. I'm glad that in this forum, we have more members who does care about "combat".

The main reason that I don't like to talk about "health" is in "health", you truly don't care about where your hands and feet position are. In "health", it won't make any difference if your hands are 3 feet apart. It does make sense in "combat" because if you try to grab your opponent's right wrist with your right hand, and grab his right elbow with your left hand, your left hand can only be so far away from your right hand.

One of my teacher's major criticize on CMC's Taiji is his "double pulling". In the following clip at 0.23, both CMC's palms are facing down. How will he be able to "pull" his opponent's arm if his left hand hold on his opponent's wrist downward (correct way), and his right hand also hold his opponent's elbow "downward" (incorrect way)?

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cheng+Man+Ching+taiji&view=detail&mid=7B73F070B2B0DE6536C37B73F070B2B0DE6536C3&first=0&FORM=NVPFVR

Without talking about "combat", there won't be any "guideline" to follow. The discussion can go into any direction.

[bawang]

i think another big problem in kung fu today is pride and refusal to learn from others.

in kung fu our sabre is mongol, two hand sword is from japanese, the mace is from the persians, musket and grand cannon from the portugese, wrestling from the manchu. we used to learn from everybody.

[Lucas]

that is why the kungfu genius learns from the most deadly, this comes from the wombat. there is no more fierce creature in the world.

[bawang]

that is why the most deadly comes from the wombat. there is no more fierce creature in the world.

the wombat is the perfect organism. I admire its purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality.

[YouKnowWho]

i think another big problem in kung fu today is pride and refusal to learn from others.

This is quite true. My teacher commented on my friend's "both hands facing down double pulling". It took my friend 25 years until his Taiji teacher passed away, he finally changed his "double pulling" into the correct way. I asked him why it took him that long. His answer was, "As long as my teacher is still alive, I can't change it."

[MightyB]

i think another big problem in kung fu today is pride and refusal to learn from others.

in kung fu our sabre is mongol, two hand sword is from japanese, the mace is from the persians, musket and grand cannon from the portugese, wrestling from the manchu. we used to learn from everybody.

That's a good point...


Wang Xiangzhai: The way of learning builds up from comparison, this applies to boxing as well. When comparing skills, there is victory or defeat, but one’s personality is not harmed by it, on the contrary, it may improve one’s personality and increase one’s morals. If everyone could inspect and learn from each other’s experiences, the dispute between different schools could be avoided, and furthermore, it could stop the irresponsible talking. I wish that those who pursue the same things as I, will not take these words as empty talk, and if the prominent personage and the wise hermits of this country will be willing to make a journey to grant me instruction, they are very welcome. If you do not wish to come to visit me, please just send me a note and I will surely and wholeheartedly pay you a visit and respectfully listen to all you have to say. To sum up, I only seek to improve the boxing art, I do not bother about anything else.

[bawang]

This is quite true. My teacher commented on my friend's "both hands facing down double pulling". It took my friend 25 years until his Taiji teacher passed away, he finally changed his "double pulling" into the correct way. I asked him why it took him that long. His answer was, "As long as my teacher is still alive, I can't change it."

when i was 13 i wanted to learn kung fu to beat up a bully. when my first scammer teacher tang youxin tried to make me do fancy techniques, i couldnt stand it. "authentic" "pure" wasnt important to me. i need to beat somebody up, i needed to win.

if somebody has anger and revenge, he will find the real kung fu, nothing can hide the real kung fu from him. if somebody wants the "graceful" "beautiful" kung fu, he will be useless garbage till hes an old man.

[MightyB]

On a side note... Something that YKW's video link reminded me of - Whenever I watch a push hands demo, it appears to me that the Master is always more aggressive and THAT is the secret to their apparent success.

Master pulls up student to demonstrate his superior skill at push hands. Student is respectfully tentative and restrains their movement. The master at some point gets really aggressive and shoves the student. Master and student beam with delight at the Master's apparent super skill. This goes on throughout the whole day with it happening time and time again with every student.

[bawang]

On a side note... Something that YKW's video link reminded me of - Whenever I watch a push hands demo, it appears to me that the Master is always more aggressive and THAT is the secret to their apparent success.

Master pulls up student to demonstrate his superior skill at push hands. Student is respectfully tentative and restrains their movement. The master at some point gets really aggressive and shoves the student. Master and student beam with delight at the Master's apparent super skill. This goes on throughout the whole day with it happening time and time again with every student.

its a form of hypnosis. you cant generate power or defeat your master because you are literally hypnotized.

[Robinhood]

Offense is the best defense. When US missiles flew toward Iraq, we didn't see any Iraq missiles flew back to US.

You just can't "soft" your opponent to death.

IF he can't hurt you, has he beat you up. ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

On a side note... Something that YKW's video link reminded me of - Whenever I watch a push hands demo, it appears to me that the Master is always more aggressive and THAT is the secret to their apparent success.

Master pulls up student to demonstrate his superior skill at push hands. Student is respectfully tentative and restrains their movement. The master at some point gets really aggressive and shoves the student. Master and student beam with delight at the Master's apparent super skill. This goes on throughout the whole day with it happening time and time again with every student.

That goes for pretty much any demo of any MA.

[lkfmdc]

On a side note... Something that YKW's video link reminded me of - Whenever I watch a push hands demo, it appears to me that the Master is always more aggressive and THAT is the secret to their apparent success.

Master pulls up student to demonstrate his superior skill at push hands. Student is respectfully tentative and restrains their movement. The master at some point gets really aggressive and shoves the student. Master and student beam with delight at the Master's apparent super skill. This goes on throughout the whole day with it happening time and time again with every student.

have a good friend who is a push hands player, has competed in Asia many times, I told him in a good natured (but serious) way that they all spend years pushing only to learn eventually that if you just change one angle it is always successful... I WAS being serious.. it's an old Judo trick as well, ALWAYS works

Go back and look at a lot of these demos and you'll see teh trickl, but like so much in TCMA no one wants to show it because they want to hang it over people's heads

[MightyB]

its a form of hypnosis. you literally cant generate power or defeat your master because you are hypnotized.

nah it's not even that. It's ego. I guess you could say it's cult of personality. It bothers me, and it should bother the "Masters" that are perpetrating it... but they believe their delusion. I blame the students too - for feeding the delusion. I think that a student should, at some point during their career, during push hands, give a real challenge to the "Master". Actually, all advanced students and the Master should always give real challenge to each other. Then everyone's kung fu would be at a high level. And yes, at some point, when the Master is elderly, you take it easy on him, but they've earned it then.

[MightyB]

Go back and look at a lot of these demos and you'll see the trick, but like so much in TCMA no one wants to show it because they want to hang it over people's heads

Funny, Sad, and True all at the same time.

[David Jamieson]

have a good friend who is a push hands player, has competed in Asia many times, I told him in a good natured (but serious) way that they all spend years pushing only to learn eventually that if you just change one angle it is always successful... I WAS being serious.. it's an old Judo trick as well, ALWAYS works

Go back and look at a lot of these demos and you'll see teh trickl, but like so much in TCMA no one wants to show it because they want to hang it over people's heads

This is true. Physics dictates that the unmovable arm, unbendable arm, unliftable body etc are all simple applied physics tricks. No qi, no magic, no years of study required.

I still get surprised when I meet older people taht believe in it. I feel bad for them sometimes because I would hate to be their age and still that gullible. it can be boggling.

[lkfmdc]

I am stealing this quote from a different thread in the southern forum


The issue with the "dwindling" popularity of Hung Kuen ( And according to some, TCMA in general) is a complex issue.
I don't think it is because students don't like to work hard, go to any boxing, MT or MMA gym and you will find very hard workers, guys putting in serious hours.



when I think back to my generation, we were all young, mostly kids and young teenagers, we all thought that there were secrets to be learned... we also thought that we had to work long hours, and put up with all sorts of stupid stuff to get those secrets....

That is the ONLY reason people put up with all the TCMA associated crap. And, of course, as the world changes it's mindset so goes those who are willing to put up with the crap

[MightyB]

This guy was so ahead of his time in his thinking...


Combat science cannot be divided into schools, and the boxing theory does not have the distinction of Chinese or foreign, and new or old. Do nothing but examine whether it is right or wrong, and suitable or unsuitable, that is enough. At large, the numerous schools of our society, generally take the approach of forms and techniques to learn boxing. One must know that this kind practice is just forgery conducted by the later generations, it is not the original essence of combat science. Even though a few people by chance realise some side-mechanics and one-sided techniques, they have not, however, left the methods and forms after all, so it is without avail in the end.

[lkfmdc]

This guy was so ahead of his time in his thinking...

actually, a LOT of the guys in his generation thought this way... we've been force fed a lot of myth and just plain BS about TCMA

[YouKnowWho]

IF he can't hurt you, has he beat you up. ?

do you hide yourself in a tank?

[YouKnowWho]

actually, a LOT of the guys in his generation thought this way... we've been force fed a lot of myth and just plain BS about TCMA

That's true.

XingYi master Li Cun-yi said, "XingYi is for killing and not for performance."

http://imageshack.us/a/img412/2729/xyform1.jpg

[lkfmdc]

That's true.

XingYi master Li Cun-yi said, "XingYi is for killing and not for performance."

http://imageshack.us/a/img412/2729/xyform1.jpg

XingYi was art of bodyguards and escorts, noting mystical or for that matter "internal" about it....

[Kellen Bassette]

actually, a LOT of the guys in his generation thought this way... we've been force fed a lot of myth and just plain BS about TCMA

If someone teaches only fundamental gong fu, people will say he is a fraud for not teaching a real style/system. If someone teaches only fundamental Muay Thai, and not the tradition/form of Muay Boran, it is fine.

Gong Fu needs dedicated fundamental training. Not cult like style worship.

[xinyidizi]

LOL Yiquan criticizing Taichi is like the pot calling the kettle black. :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

If someone teaches only fundamental gong fu, people will say he is a fraud for not teaching a real style/system. If someone teaches only fundamental Muay Thai, and not the tradition/form of Muay Boran, it is fine.

Gong Fu needs dedicated fundamental training. Not cult like style worship.

real kung fu IS the fundamentals... the "flowers" are all a result of spare time when they were no longer fighting for their lives all the time

[lkfmdc]

LOL Yiquan criticizing Taichi is like the pot calling the kettle black. :rolleyes:

despite the views he expresses in his interview, today if you youtube his students most are not doing much fighting... something about TCMA that in a few generations something can devolve so completely

[-N-]

I think that a student should, at some point during their career, during push hands, give a real challenge to the "Master".

Just be up front about it. Not a good idea to try to sucker punch the teacher unless you are willing to accept the possible consequences.

Not push hands, but I was working with a student on a 2 move combo that ended with waist chop takedown.

We were going fast, and I stopped short of taking him down. I locked him up at his balance point then eased up to let him recover.

Right then he tried to hit me, thinking to show off a counter move, so I locked him up again.

He panicked and lost his balance. I caught him from falling completely, but he still twisted his leg and tore his knee ligaments. It happened in a split second, and he was in a knee brace for a long time afterwards.

[YouKnowWho]

Not a good idea to try to sucker punch the teacher unless you are willing to accept the possible consequences.

One of my SC senior brothers tried to test my teacher's skill one day. For the rest of his life, he had to hide behind the pole to watch SC tournament. It's so easy to burn the bridge.

[Robinhood]

do you hide yourself in a tank?

LOL, What tank ?, It's all about target, can't find or hit target, then if nothing to hit, then hard to take advantage.

[YouKnowWho]

LOL, What tank ?, It's all about target, can't find or hit target, then if nothing to hit, then hard to take advantage.

Love to see a clip about that.

[MightyB]

despite the views he expresses in his interview, today if you youtube his students most are not doing much fighting... something about TCMA that in a few generations something can devolve so completely

Yeah - for some reason they've fixated on the health cultivation to the point of forgetting the martial when it's clear by this article that he expressly emphasized that the martial was necessary and very important. Sad really. So you go from a guy that was basically a qigong happy predecessor of the Bruce Lee MMA way of thinking and devolve it to a bunch of people smirking whilst standing post for hours on end.

<man I must've jumped on the bitter bus this morning>

And N I'm not advocating sucker punching your instructor. I'm advocating keeping it real enough so that you don't somehow create that cult of personality thing where there's students faking no touch knockouts, chi immobilization, and hopping across the floor. That false atmosphere can happen real fast with too much compliance.

[MightyB]

LOL Yiquan criticizing Taichi is like the pot calling the kettle black. :rolleyes:

I think some of them have earned it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Rn-lkPzk0

That's just one of many vids out there showing them hard sparring and drilling. I rescind my comment about them smirking whilst standing post. They can smirk and stand post all they want as long as they continue to do this other practice. :)

[MightyB]

This one shows good Wing Chun, especially around the 5 minute mark. It's controlled sparring between a yi quan guy and a wing chunner. You clearly see the distinct styles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ythWqde-c

It's controlled, but it's playing hands the way playing hands should be played. Controlled, yet confident.

[xinyidizi]

This one shows good Wing Chun, especially around the 5 minute mark. It's controlled sparring between a yi quan guy and a wing chunner. You clearly see the distinct styles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ythWqde-c

It's controlled, but it's playing hands the way playing hands should be played. Controlled, yet confident.

My V P N has expired but if it is what I just searched on google then that's Xingyi not Yiquan. Anyway the old guy really needs to protect his head.

[MightyB]

My V P N has expired but if it is what I just searched on google then that's Xingyi not Yiquan. Anyway the old guy really needs to protect his head.

well - in action he's demonstrating yiquan in his fighting. Pretty much sums up the Wang interview saying you should eliminate the forms and modern element theory because that's not representative of real fighting.

Xing Yi minus forms, and the rock paper scissors mentality of the element theory = yi quan.

Yi Quan application practice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBNHd60xVKY)

Taikiken (Japanese Yi Quan) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU1BFuocvMA)

-----
Yeah he does need to protect his head.

[MightyB]

honestly I don't know why I'm jumping on the yi quan bandwagon right now... I just liked what the guy said in the article. I don't know yi quan or xing yi and probably wouldn't choose them for my "internal" style anyway if I chose to do "internal".

[xinyidizi]

well - in action he's demonstrating yiquan in his fighting. Pretty much sums up the Wang interview saying you should eliminate the forms and modern element theory because that's not representative of real fighting.

Xing Yi minus forms, and the rock paper scissors mentality of the element theory = yi quan.

The old guy is just showing no experience in fighting with a half-decent opponent. This video shows very clearly the main problem of TCMA. TCMA's problem is not forms, Neigong, ... as these things are good and teach you power and speed. The XY guy has learned these these skills from his forms but clear lack of experience against a more experienced fighter shows that he doesn't know how to use his skills.

[xinyidizi]

In Xinyiliuhe we don't have fixed forms and sometimes we make up our own forms based on what we want to practice but forms or no forms isn't really the problem of TCMA. The problem is that it is full of cowards who don't want to lose face in sparring or fighting.

[bawang]

well - in action he's demonstrating yiquan in his fighting. Pretty much sums up the Wang interview saying you should eliminate the forms and modern element theory because that's not representative of real fighting.


the xingyi five elements is five basic punches. i dont know how xingyi people fuk it up so bad.

[lkfmdc]

the xingyi five elements is five basic punches. i dont know how xingyi people fuk it up so bad.

practice without theory is empty

BUT

too much theory and practice becomes bogged down and suffers

we have too much theory, in too much abstract terms, with too much mysticism attached to practice

[sanjuro_ronin]

A person needs to make a statement about their core and the core of their MA:
Is it about fighting or something else.

Every MA was developed with fighting in mind as it's core (sometimes as it's only goal) and to turn our backs on that core is to deny tradition.

MA were also developed, typiclaly, to deal with OTHER MA/fighters and not just "the layperson" and, IMO, that is where many TMA have "dropped the ball".
The view that "what are the chances you will fight a trained fighter on the street" is, IMO, the worse possible mindset to have.

[Jimbo]

MA were also developed, typiclaly, to deal with OTHER MA/fighters and not just "the layperson" and, IMO, that is where many TMA have "dropped the ball".
The view that "what are the chances you will fight a trained fighter on the street" is, IMO, the worse possible mindset to have.

That view is especially outmoded now, as with all the information out there, not only is it likely your attacker(s) will have at least some training (boxing, wrestling, MMA; contact sports such as football; ex-military, etc.), but one should expect it. And a person who's 'untrained' but has considerable street experience is definitely in that category as well. Or if they're drugged-up beyond feeling any pain.

Not to mention weapons such as knives. Many MAists severely underestimate them. They are a great equalizer, and any determined person can lay you open with one with only light contact, and they aren't as easy to disarm as many people believe they are.

The view that MA training automatically puts one into a super-secret elite society of those 'in the know' is a very dangerous delusion, indeed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That view is especially outmoded now, as with all the information out there, not only is it likely your attacker(s) will have at least some training (boxing, wrestling, MMA; contact sports such as football; ex-military, etc.), but one should expect it. And a person who's 'untrained' but has considerable street experience is definitely in that category as well. Or if they're drugged-up beyond feeling any pain.

Not to mention weapons such as knives. Many MAists severely underestimate them. They are a great equalizer, and any determined person can lay you open with one with only light contact, and they aren't as easy to disarm as many people believe they are.

The view that MA training automatically puts one into a super-secret elite society of those 'in the know' is a very dangerous delusion, indeed.

Very much so.
From when I first started bouncing in 1988 to when I stopped in 1998, the noticeable difference from how people fought when they got into trouble was right there.
Towards the end we saw guys going for the "mma stuff" ( even if they never trained) and the appearance of knives ( and guns too) increased quite a bit.
The recreational use of drugs to build muscle also got more mainstream.

[Robinhood]

Love to see a clip about that.

It's like that saying, miss by a hair, is like missing by 1000 miles, You probably won't see a hair., but you might feel it.

[Eric Olson]

Look at how animals fight: this is "internal" power. They don't get in their own way. Nothing more, nothing less.

But a lion can still demolish a hyaena because a lion is bigger and has more weight and muscle to put behind what they're doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TN-pfc55H_I#t=142s

A ferret can overpower a rat even though they are about the same width around (the ferret is about twice the length and weight).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ0fngMq2Yw

So you can maximize what you're doing by not getting in your own way and internal styles emphasize this. But we can't throw out physics and biology and ignore that fact that a bigger stronger organism can overpower the smaller and weaker one. So training to be bigger and stronger is also essential.

It never was an "either/or" argument.

[YouKnowWho]

eliminate the forms and modern element theory because that's not representative of real fighting.
If you understand the 5 elements theory, it can simplify the real fight.

What if your opponnt likes to

1. throw high kicks (wood)? You let your elbow to meed his ankle (metal).
2. move slowly inch by inch (earth)? You throw long distance punches and kicks at him (wood).
3. play defense and wait for you to attack (water)? You move in slowly inch by inch and squeeze him (earth).
4. jump up and down (fire)? You match your body movement with his body up/down movement (water).
5. use hard block (metal)? You hop around and don't commit your punches/kicks (fire).

[bawang]

in 70s documentary a guy said kung fu is controlled insanity. he is right, but not the way he thought.