what is the full potential of our muscles?

[SevenStar]

Qeysus said something interesting in the "strength without training thread":

"Well look at retarded people or whatever they are called, they aer FREAKISHLY strong, that's because they'r muscles dont hold back. Your muscles have the capability to rip themselves apart if i'm not mistaken but they hold back in normal people, i think i read this in Pavel T's PTP book. That's why people like mentally ill people or whatever are sometimes WAY to strong then their body build suggests, perhaps this is a way to activate your muscles beyond the "Norm" and yet not too much for it to be dangerous."

Anybody have any links on this subject? Is there any way we can unlock this potential?

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

[IronFist]

I believe Pavel also says if a human were to his muscle to its full extent it would destroy itself or something. I have the book here but I'm just a bit too lazy to flip through it and find the quote.

He also says research is being done on this very subject. I definately peaked my interest.

Scheiße! Ok, here, I was getting curious so I just picked up the book and found the page. Here's a quote for you:

"Insane people bend metal bars in the windows of their cells [Ironfist's note: is this documented?]--I believe, they call them 'wards' in the US--because their neural circuitry is goofed up. It does not recognie the inhibitory input and does not hold you back. This is the essence of disinhibition training, the hottest new direction in strength training. Of course, we do not want to totally lose our senses, rather learn to ignore them when we choose to."

Pavel Tsatsouline, Power to the People, pg 71.

Basically he says that the amount of effort you can exert is limited by some part of your brain. The limiting function of some "insane" people's brains doesn't function properly, hene their massive strength.

Iron

[Chang Style Novice]

100%!

I hope this has been helpful.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[SevenStar]

We tried the pushup program (and probably several other things) we woulda tried the chi in 2 weeks thing if turiyan would have posted a link - we need to look into this disinhibition thing to. whaddya say?

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

[Chang Style Novice]

So, what - get drunk and work out? Doesn't seem practical. I can't think of a good way to do it.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[zen_celt]

It seems to make sense what Pavel etc. are saying about this. The adrenaline/ PCP thing is an excellent example of this. People who have an adrenaline rush can do some extraordinary things because they aren't thinking about the logical limitations we impose upon ourselves. To paraphrase Nelson Mandela, "Mankind's greatest fear is not that we will fail, but that we are powerful beyond measure." Or something to that effect. How many of us, for instance, have been sparring with someone and gotten so into the moment that we almost do an illegal technique but something in the back of our brain stops us before we actually do it.

As far as the alcohol idea is concerned, I don't think that's what is meant. Alcohol keeps us from thinking, yes, but it's more of a philosophical sort of lack of inhibitions rather than a neuroscientific(I may have just created a new word) one.

I hope this makes sense, I'm sort of in a dazed mood. I'll check this later when I can think.
-Z

"The thorn *****s only those who would harm the rose."

[IronFist]

Sevenstar, sounds good buddy!

Iron

[Crimson Phoenix]

Yes, it is well known that we only use 30-40% of our muscular potential...it comes indeed from neural feedback that we cannot use our full potential. Another factor that adds to this is the fact that we do not "know" how to recruit all the muscular fibers when performing a move, most of the time half of them are left unrecruited, hence a limitation of power even in the absence of neural negative feedback...I came to think that the incredible internal strenght developped by some was "just" that they learned to recruit all their muscle fibers and diminish the neural negative feedback by the intense work of intention required in internal arts...why would teachers emphasize intention so much? You all know that concentrating on a movement like you are doing it (even when layingg in bed orr sitting in meditation) actually stimulates the neurons and muscles in the same way they would be stimulated if you actually performed the move...
Maybe gong fu is just a way of developping your neural system...
Just some thoughts

[qeySuS]

I dont think it's a mental thing all together. Pavel talked about Neural circuitry and so on, and yes it's true that Pavel also said that the muscles had the capability to destroy themselves if used to their full potentual (man that's some strong muscles). But then you can also argue that if Adrenaline makes you so strong you must have that strength within you but dont have the mental discipline to unleash it at your own discretion.

Free thinkers are dangerous!

[Crimson Phoenix]

I do believe it is a neural thing: adrenaline release is under neural control...however it is true that the metabolic impact of adrenaline (increase of oxygen intake, glucose degradation and nucleic acid phosphate derivatives synthesis for example) has nothing to do directly with neurons. As in every biological aspect, many factors are at the base of a single phenomenon...
I have read that adrenalin is the hormone of ritual fights, while the real killer/survival hormone is noradrenaline...I read that quite a while ago but even if I am a biologist, neural sciences are not my specialty...all I remember was a cool comment about how adrenaline dilated your uuhhhh...what's the name of the black contractile spot in the center of the eye again?
Anyway, adrenaline dilated it, while noradrenalin contracted it...you know, when you are in a real killing mood and your eyes just close in a tiny slit.
Also, adrenaline induced behaviors in which the chest was brought forth and the body standing up high, whereas noradrenaline made the subject press the shoulders and sink just like a tiger about to attack...
Dang, it makes me want to read that stuff again...

[Wongsifu]

just on a side note , this is one of the reasons i love those ems machines electromuscular stimulation , you know that crap they show on tv , it sends the pulse directly into the muscle to make it twitch bypassing the brain, so you can make your muscle work 10 times more than it should do by really cranking up the power , however it hurts.


On another note i also find that the meridians of loony people are screwed up so the energy doesnt flow to their brain , because of this the eneergy trapped in their torso makes them more powerful.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[fmann]

On one hand, it's pain feedback and stretch feedback that regulates how much you can exert

There are numerous people, especially after lobotomies in the old days, who feel "disconnected" from pain and other sensation. This is the same with people that may have problems in their mental wiring. It's not that they don't feel pain -- everyone feels pain unless their nerve endings are seared off or the nerves are severed. They feel the pain and they either <u>don't care</u> (this is what happens during the so called "adrenaline rush" -- you don't care about your muscle pain so long as you get the f-ck out of there) or they <u>don't understand it</u> (this what newborn infants experience: if you've ever noticed when a baby falls or hurts itself, it doesn't cry immediately. only after realizing that it doesn't like pain does it cry).

[IronFist]

On another note i also find that the meridians of loony people are screwed up so the energy doesnt flow to their brain , because of this the eneergy trapped in their torso makes them more powerful.

That's crazy. I wonder if they practiced Tai Chi if they would explode?

Makes being super strong sound not very healthy, eh?

Iron

[JWTAYLOR]

I got in a bad motorcyle wreck when I was younger. It broke just about every single bone on the right side of my body and several on my left. I had over a dozen broken bones in all. And my 3rd vertibrae from the top was displaced about an inch to the right. It left me paralized for a few days until the swelling went down. Then, I had 2 45 minute bone surgeries without the benefit of anestesia. The pain was so bad from it that it would make me pass out, and then immediately wake me back up again. Of course, they had to strap my whole body down. (partly becuause I was trying to grab a scalpel to get to the doctor, but I digress).

Anyway, for one reason or another, I have now what a couple of doctors have refferred to as permanent nerve deafness. It's dandy for pain. Basically, if I put my hand on an oven, I know it's hot, and I even might know that it's hurting/damaging me. But there is no real reaction. I can pull my hand away if I want, or just leave it there. Same goes for cuts and even bone breaks. It's not that it doesn't hurt, it's just that that I don't feel it like I used to. (But many things on me ache.)

The only reason I'm posting about it is because someone above mentioned being disconected from the pain, that really is the first time I've heard someone accurately describe the feeling. I know it's there, but I don't have to pay attention to it, and if I do pay attention to it, I can decide how I want to react. But there is never that jump back oww feeling anymore. Which got me burned allot when I was a mechanic, btw.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[jesper]

I have tried a few times to lift weights which were really to "heavy" for me, all because I thought they where lighter.
The funny thing is that things went along great until I noticed I was using to heavy weights, then suddenly I would be unable to do more reps.
I think that psycology has a big impact on things.
Look at monkeys, in many ways they are similar to us physically, but yet they manage to show extreme power compared. Personally I belive its because nobody told them its impossible to do it :)

[Wongsifu]

jwt man thats crazy ... !!!

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[neptunesfall]

maybe....dynamic tension training....ie - hard qigong.....has an effect on muscular inhibition...

[Mr. Nemo]

The way pavel says to develop the full potential of your muscles is to teach your nervous system to recruit more muscle fiber when it wants to do something. One of the ways to do this is through his power to the people program.

When pavel talks about upgrading your muscle "software" this is what he's talking about. The key to flexibility, Pavel-style, also lies in the nervous system.

[Sharky]

if i wanted to buy a pavel book, which is the best one? in general.

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[anerlich]

Good thread.

If you haven't already, check out

"The Mighty Atom: The Spiritual Journey of Joseph L. Greenstein".

He was an old time strongman, who among other things ripped horseshoes in half barehanded, bit nails coins and spikes in half, and pulled cars and aeroplanes with his hair and teeth.

Both he and his protege Slim "the Hammer Man" Furman believed they could bypass the inhibitions built into their nervous systems and musculature through mental control. They'd both accomplish feats of strengths by getting into a frame of mind where they'd rather die than fail.

Slim Furman was a big guy with solid arms, but the Atom didn't look overly imposing physique-wise.

I'd recommend this book highly.

[DrunkenMonkey]

take steriods with drugs, drink a lot, be a sex addict, weight lifting addict, move a muscle even when you're sitting, run, don't stop walking for 10 years.

"If I knew then what I know now, I would have killed him."

[Mr. Nemo]

"food for thought.....

maybe....dynamic tension training....ie - hard qigong.....has an effect on muscular inhibition..."

You are correct - Pavel recommends doing dynamic tension as a supplement to weightlifting. However, he says you have to put some sort of load on yourself to develop.

[SantaClaus]

I have also noticed this weightlifting.

How many of you started learning kung fu, so that you could control yourself to NOT kill someone. I like that Mandela quote.

Lets look beyond retards, why do apes have so much more strength? Structure? I think we are capable of much much more.

Remember that grandma in the 80s that picked up a car "Like it was her bottle of pepto bismal" to save her three year old grandson. She was around 70 years old and frail. No chi action there, no li action. No real explanation other than adrenaline.

How about guys on drugs that throw dumpsters.

Hook me up with a superman pill. Who knows, maybe there is more to those wacky doaist legends than we give credit for. Who would beleive a grandma could pick up a car unless it was on the news