Single Leg Counter [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

YouKnowWho

05-05-2013, 04:36 PM

I had mentioned this "single leg" counter before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhyMCQ5hEUw&feature=youtu.be

I just happen to see this online clip and used in wrestling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6LHwEkBtoI

It's surprising how similiar the Chinese wrestling and western wrestling are. It's a simple "sticky" principle that you glue your body on your opponent's body.

I don't know where this thread will go. We can discuss the similiarity or difference between 2 arts. We can also discuss different ways to counter single leg. Any discussion will be welcome here.

Subitai

05-05-2013, 06:42 PM

When someone says single leg to me...in my mind the 1st thing that comes up is collegiate style wrestling.

Meaning in general you penetrate...lower your level and with head on the inside you get the takedown.

This is pretty much how I was taught to do it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzkvx9OBphM

What we would add to this is usually a "NAVY" or basically an arm trip in between the legs.

The reason I bring this up is because your talking about counters. Therefore, when I was watching the 1st video you put up with the SC players...I kept thinking right from the start of the vid if the guy with the single leg had just "Lowered his level " and got his hips down underneath his opponant....it'd be easier to take him down or just do a "High Crotch" , I used to love this move: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFadvGJq0nM

But I guess in SC...you don't want to go down on your knees to pick someone up.

Anyway the guy just stayed back on his feet with his back bent over...this gives the defender TOO much space to use his legs as a lever.

The counter is alot different if a guy is able to get inside, lower his level and sink in really deep for the shot. Then, you start talking about cross facing and hipping down to make some room 1st.

"O"

YouKnowWho

05-05-2013, 07:14 PM

In SC sport rule, if any 2 points of your body besides your feet touch the ground, you lose that round. If you go down on both knees, you just give your opponent a free round.

In ShanXi SC system, they have over 40 different ways to get your opponent's leading leg. I have heard that someone published a SC book just talk about "40 different ways to do single leg" (may be more than 40).

Here is a clip of ShanXi SC single leg (at 1.50). Their system likes to use "single leg" more that other Chinese wrestling system.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzkyNTQyODY4.html

Shaolin

05-05-2013, 10:05 PM

It's surprising how similar the Chinese wrestling and western wrestling are.

Not really. Look past the specific techniques and strip any art down to its core principles and concepts, and they're all the same.

bawang

05-06-2013, 07:42 AM

Not really. Look past the specific techniques and strip any art down to its core principles and concepts, and they're all the same.

cao your mother.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjI3MDUwNzIw.html

what this? huh? what this?

Dragonzbane76

05-06-2013, 05:11 PM

The reason I bring this up is because your talking about counters. Therefore, when I was watching the 1st video you put up with the SC players...I kept thinking right from the start of the vid if the guy with the single leg had just "Lowered his level " and got his hips down underneath his opponant....it'd be easier to take him down or just do a "High Crotch"

agree with you on that. The vid I watched from youknowwho does not take into consideration forward momentum. But circumstances don't always dictate forward momentum, I understand this. difference in positioning.

YouKnowWho

05-06-2013, 05:54 PM

The vid I watched from youknowwho does not take into consideration forward momentum. But circumstances don't always dictate forward momentum, I understand this. difference in positioning.

To be able to use your forward movement to run your opponent down is always the highest level skill in all TCMA. Sometime if your opponent is about your level, you may not always have the opportunity to do it. If your opponent's retreating footwork is as fast as your forward shooting, when you get there, his leg may not be there any more. The forward movement is a 2 edges sword. It sometime means "over commit". You may let your opponent to lead you into the emptiness - kiss dirt.

The definition of "single leg" is to obtain your opponent's leading leg. There are more than 20 different ways to do so. After you have obtained your opponent's leading leg (such as ankle pick), if you can attack his back standing leg, he will be down. This way you are not over committed on your leading leg attack. IMO, it's much safer this way.

sanjuro_ronin

05-07-2013, 06:04 AM

I have never been a fan of the "he does this, you do this" methodology.
Fighting is far too fluid and chaotic.
The best way to counter any take down is to counter the ATTEMPT before it becomes a take down.
Once the opponent has a lock on your leg, then it is all based on what he does:
Does he drive?
Does he lift?
Does he do both?
Does he pull or push?
Does he swing around or step in to the angle?
Too many variables to say, "to this..."

So what do we do?
We drill and we adapt and when exposed to the MANY different ways, we learn how to react and how to counter.

Syn7

05-07-2013, 07:25 AM

YouKnowWho

05-07-2013, 09:56 AM

I have never been a fan of the "he does this, you do this" methodology.

TCMA is like to find the right key to open the right lock. There exist no master key. You can use a hammer to smash the lock (master key - general solution). That will solve problem but it takes a lot of force. If you find the right key, it will be effortless to open a lock.

The counter for hip throw is different from the counter for single leg which is also different from the counter for foot sweep. Of course if you move back and remain distance, you can prevent almost everything. When your opponent's attack is too quick, your body and his body are already connected, the right counter will be the right solution.

For example, counter for

- hip throw is to spin with your opponent and drag him down to the ground.
- single leg is to press your opponent's neck down and redirect his forward shooting into kissing dirt.
- foot sweep is to pull your leg off and above your opponent's sweeping leg. You then sweep his sweeping leg.
- front cut to twist your body into a bow-arrow stance. You then attack his back standing leg.
- ...

Unfortunately counters for different throws are all different. There exist no common solution - master key. If you do ... I'll do ... is a must and you just don't have any choice.

Syn7

05-07-2013, 06:43 PM

And some keys can open more than one lock and some locks can be opened by more than one key.

YouKnowWho

05-07-2013, 07:19 PM

When your opponent punches at you, you can block it

- up,
- down,
- to your right,
- to your left,
- 45 degree right up,
- 30 degree left down,
- ...

As long as you can change your opponent's punching path so his hand won't hit you, you have solved that problem.

When your opponent's hands holds on your leading leg, You have to stick your leg between his legs. When he moves his

- right leg, you attack his left leg.
- left leg, you attack his right leg.

You just don't have as much options as blocking a punch.

LaRoux

05-10-2013, 04:50 PM

I had mentioned this "single leg" counter before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhyMCQ5hEUw&feature=youtu.be

Here's what happens when someone does a crappy single leg takedown with the head on the outside as shown in the clip above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGL92ZNMAe0

Notice the head position of the proper single leg that was shown above:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6LHwEkBtoI

Yum Cha

05-10-2013, 06:02 PM

Great Clip LaRoux
It illustrates dropping down
digging between face and body,
wrapping around the head,
joining the hands,
torquing the opponent down to the other side
...and then starting to fight again.

Yet, putting an elbow or forearm on that 'dropping down' to the neck or head of the opponent (as the guy in the video has to practically avoid doing) and dropping the guy like a sack of shyte in one move is so technically impossible as to be laughable...

Like I said, nice video.

IronWeasel

05-10-2013, 06:10 PM

Here's what happens when someone does a crappy single leg takedown with the head on the outside as shown in the clip above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGL92ZNMAe0

Notice the head position of the proper single leg that was shown above:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6LHwEkBtoI

Is that crossface a legit head control move in a shuai chiao match?

Yum Cha

05-10-2013, 06:22 PM

I like to look at it more like "if he does this, I can do that"

"That" doesn't have to be one option, but it can be. There are times when your choices are very limited and there are times when you have a lil more discretion as to how you react. It would be crazy to make any "one size fits all" statements though.

Try, 'I'm going to do this, so he'll do 'That' and I'll be set for it. Getting the opponent's 'that' to be narrowed down is part of the puzzle. Strategy.

This, training attacking combinations that force an initial predictable response, which the combination is designed to capitalise upon, reduces your need to figure out what the other guy is going to do. Put the burden on him. If you're good at it, he won't have time, or a second chance.

Starting small, by stepping right or left, front or back, which requires an opponent to adjust can be the start, anything that causes the opponent to react to your actions, even without throwing any strikes, provides the opportunity to gain a small advantage, several small advantages build your case for turning to your attack. Space, terrain, allies, other threats or other resources, all count as well. Get him to 'show' before you do if its viable, and thats a tremendous advantage.

Syn7

05-10-2013, 07:42 PM

Try, 'I'm going to do this, so he'll do 'That' and I'll be set for it. Getting the opponent's 'that' to be narrowed down is part of the puzzle. Strategy.

This, training attacking combinations that force an initial predictable response, which the combination is designed to capitalise upon, reduces your need to figure out what the other guy is going to do. Put the burden on him. If you're good at it, he won't have time, or a second chance.

Starting small, by stepping right or left, front or back, which requires an opponent to adjust can be the start, anything that causes the opponent to react to your actions, even without throwing any strikes, provides the opportunity to gain a small advantage, several small advantages build your case for turning to your attack. Space, terrain, allies, other threats or other resources, all count as well. Get him to 'show' before you do if its viable, and thats a tremendous advantage.

Word. That's bjj 101. Infact that has been stressed to some degree at every style I've been involved with. Words to live by. Apply that to your daily life and you're golden. :)

Syn7

05-10-2013, 07:44 PM

Is that crossface a legit head control move in a shuai chiao match?

Dunno, but that **** can really hurt :mad:

:p

Neck cranks can be a ***** too. Sometimes they do nothing, other times it's tap worthy.

Dragonzbane76

05-10-2013, 09:10 PM

pain application is a person to person tolerance. Neck cranks and pain applications are things that some people can struggle through and others cannot. I'm always amazed that people in MA's can say that they would do X and it will knock a person stupid. I've seen people get knocked almost out with a broken bone and split nose and still keep coming. The human body is more resilient than most give credit. IMO.

YouKnowWho

05-10-2013, 09:33 PM

Is that crossface a legit head control move in a shuai chiao match?

That's just a simple "head lock" and it's perfect legal in SC match. If your opponent's head is parallel to the ground, the reverse head lock (guillotine) will work better. If you also use your right leg to block your opponent's right leg, and spin your body to your left, you can not only take him down, you can also put a lot of pressure on his neck.

If you move your right arm under your opponent's left shoulder, over his back, and lock on your own left arm, you can "flip" your opponent's body much easier because the rotation axis is much longer than the head lock or reverse head lock.

There are many counters for single leg. It all depends on where your opponent's head position is. When you control your opponent's head, his body will follow.

YouKnowWho

05-10-2013, 09:41 PM

I've seen people get knocked almost out with a broken bone and split nose and still keep coming. The human body is more resilient than most give credit. IMO.

IMO, where to strike is important. I have seen someone used hay-maker to hit on the back of his opponent's head and knocked his opponent flat cold.

Dragonzbane76

05-11-2013, 04:45 AM

Like I said every person is different in there tolerance for pain and threshold. I've also seen guys barely get touched and knocked out as well, it's a 2 way street for sure.

Dragonzbane76

05-11-2013, 04:52 AM

Is that crossface a legit head control move in a shuai chiao match?

When you said that I was thinking of a wrestling cross face, which is not a locking maneuver. When I wrestled it was more of a strike with the forearm to the head was an illegal move but it happened a lot when people shot in for a single leg or you was riding someones back and wanted to move them.

Dragonzbane76

05-11-2013, 05:00 AM

this is more of what I was thinking about

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2039/31346031648cf2ceacbb.jpg

IronWeasel

05-11-2013, 07:08 AM

When you said that I was thinking of a wrestling cross face, which is not a locking maneuver. When I wrestled it was more of a strike with the forearm to the head was an illegal move but it happened a lot when people shot in for a single leg or you was riding someones back and wanted to move them.

Lol...

It's not SUPPOSED to be a strike...but it always was, wasn't it? :D

Dragonzbane76

05-11-2013, 07:14 AM

It's not SUPPOSED to be a strike...but it always was, wasn't it?

yeah you weren't suppose to "strike" but when it was time to roll everyone did it.

lkfmdc

05-11-2013, 08:21 AM

People who think there is no striking in wrestling, have never wrestled...

IronWeasel

05-11-2013, 09:01 AM

People who think there is no striking in wrestling, have never wrestled...

I learned all of that the hard way.

I especially hated the tie-up at the beginning.

It was basically a open hand strike to my neck, followed by a grab.:mad:

Syn7

05-11-2013, 10:06 AM

yeah you weren't suppose to "strike" but when it was time to roll everyone did it.

We all did nasty **** in wrestling. Some more than others. But we are all guilty.

Not as bad as rugby though. We had to tape our ears, nuff said. I can live with the shin kicking, but the biting was brutal.

Never been bit in wrestling, but it happens a lot more than most people would think. I saw lots of that.

YouKnowWho

05-11-2013, 02:44 PM

this is more of what I was thinking about

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2039/31346031648cf2ceacbb.jpg

It's a "head lock" as long as you use your arm to wrap around any part of your opponent's head (included neck).

Dragonzbane76

05-11-2013, 02:54 PM

YouKnowWho

05-11-2013, 03:02 PM

Your not understanding what im saying. Crossface in wrestling is used more versatile including use as a sweeping type strike with forearm. Its an illegal move to lock a persons head and twist. Not really considered a head lock as you think in wrestling.

Are you saying that to lock a persons head and twist is illegal in wrestling? What's the definition of head lock used in western wrestling? You can lock the head but you can't twist it?

In Chinese wrestling, both lock and twist are allowed. That's why the old saying said, "when you take the head, the body will follow".

Subitai

05-11-2013, 07:12 PM

Are you saying that to lock a persons head and twist is illegal in wrestling? What's the definition of head lock used in western wrestling? You can lock the head but you can't twist it?

In Chinese wrestling, both lock and twist are allowed. That's why the old saying said, "when you take the head, the body will follow".

It depends on the Format or rules:

In most Collegiate style wrestling formats...you can't just Head Lock a guys Neck (and crank it) without also having his arm as well. It's for Safety.

For example: "The Head & Arm" is a great move, it's a takedown and also a Pinning move. Ya if you sink it in tight, put your head on the side of his arm and crush 'em together.... get on your toes. It's bye bye time.

I've seen dudes pinned in less that a few seconds with a Head & Arm right after the whistle blew. Of course if you got pinned that quick...we called you a Guppy!! Haha ... a fish!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPN9_It5JmY
This is the pretty much it...only it's little juniors doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dR2tD4Qfno
This is the same idea...only instead of with a purpose of Pinning a guys back down for points...it's more about the submission.

MarathonTmatt

05-11-2013, 10:44 PM

:mad:

links-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vFj5eFLTEc&feature=player_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVgcP235J_A&feature=player_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Iu-moZyJM&feature=player_detailpage

lol @ 1:50

the histories of wrestling and lacrosse, sports indeginous to the americas now practised by thousands around the world.

YouKnowWho

05-12-2013, 10:45 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPN9_It5JmY
This is the pretty much it...only it's little juniors doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dR2tD4Qfno
This is the same idea...only instead of with a purpose of Pinning a guys back down for points...it's more about the submission.

The 1st clip is the wrestler's bread and butter if he trains head lock. The head and arm is the normal situation. This way you have controlled one of your opponent's arms. The head only situation applies well if your opponent's chest is on the floor and you can twist his neck backward. Since his arms won't be able to give you trouble at that moment.

The 2nd clip also controls one of your opponent's arms. Whether it's stand up or on the ground, you have advantage.

IMO, the head lock will give you advantage in the ground game. You can start with stand up and finish on the ground. To me, that's true "integration". On the other hand, when you apply "double hands single leg", since your opponent's both arms are still free, you don't have the same advantage.

Frost

05-12-2013, 12:49 PM

It's a "head lock" as long as you use your arm to wrap around any part of your opponent's head (included neck).

you aren't wrapping anything you are driving there head away and peeling it off with your forearm its nothing like a headlock