Ranking: academic or physical?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most here will agree that the "black belt" is but a starting point.
In my view it was a "high school diploma".
That got me to thinking about how we view/should view rankings.
IMO, they should be both physical ( ability to do) and academic ( ability to understand AND convey).
That said, we must also be aware of physical limitations and take those into accounts.
So, I have postulated thus:
4-5 years for a Black belt- "same time to get your high school diploma
4- years to get your "bachelors degree" - 2-3rd degree BB
4 years after Bach.Deg to get your masters.
2 years after that for your doctorate.
When are you a GM?
When those you have taught reach the degree of "Master".

So, for someone to be viewed as a "master" in a MA, they would have had to spend a minimum of 12 years doing that MA and be able to not only do it but also convey what it is as well as any other person that has a "master's degree" in any other subject.

Thoughts?

[Lucas]

what if your lineage doesnt use ranking? :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

what if your lineage doesnt use ranking? :eek:

Every lineage does, even if "informal".
The moment one is viewed as a "teacher" or as a "master". there is ranking.

[bawang]

Every lineage does, even if "informal".
The moment one is viewed as a "teacher" or as a "master". there is ranking.

chinese ranking is dynamic. you can be demoted.

[sanjuro_ronin]

chinese ranking is dynamic. you can be demoted.

Not a bad thing at all in my opinion.

[bawang]

Not a bad thing at all in my opinion.



i also think demotion is a great idea, but in modern times the customer buys the rank and belt. the customer gets the final say. if you like it you should introduce it into your personal style.

[Lucas]

Every opportunity for advancement should also be a chance for demotion.

[David Jamieson]

Rank is relevant only to the organization in which you belong and only in context to the service of that organization.

My personal view is that in martial arts, you are either able or unable. You can either give and take or you cannot.

There is no rank amongst actual martial artists, only harmony or conflict.

With students in a school, belts merely mark how far along in the knowledge available in the system you've come. And that's it.

So a black belt in a system that is limited is not worth as much to another system that is less limited etc etc etc.

This is just my point of view.

[MasterKiller]

So, for someone to be viewed as a "master" in a MA, they would have had to spend a minimum of 12 years doing that MA

I don't think "Master" should have a time table. Some guy who trains 2 hours a week for 12 years shouldn't have the same claim to "mastery"as someone training 12 to 15 hours a week for 12 years.

Honestly, I don't care for the term "Master," anyway.

If your students want to call you that, it's fine as a show of respect. If a grown-@ss man calls himself Master, he should be punched in the taint.

[wenshu]

If a grown-@ss man calls himself Master, he should be punched in the taint.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6iu9dcqon1qfq3gdo1_250.gif
I'd call me shifu.
I'd call me shifu so hard.

[Miqi]

Most here will agree that the "black belt" is but a starting point.
In my view it was a "high school diploma".
That got me to thinking about how we view/should view rankings.
IMO, they should be both physical ( ability to do) and academic ( ability to understand AND convey).
That said, we must also be aware of physical limitations and take those into accounts.
So, I have postulated thus:
4-5 years for a Black belt- "same time to get your high school diploma
4- years to get your "bachelors degree" - 2-3rd degree BB
4 years after Bach.Deg to get your masters.
2 years after that for your doctorate.
When are you a GM?
When those you have taught reach the degree of "Master".

So, for someone to be viewed as a "master" in a MA, they would have had to spend a minimum of 12 years doing that MA and be able to not only do it but also convey what it is as well as any other person that has a "master's degree" in any other subject.

Thoughts?

All in all, a black belt qualification is not a bad thing thesedays - it gives you something that you can use to hire rooms and get insurance; and much as it is the skill itself that is most valuable, it is a concrete credential - we shouldn't undervalue that.

In terms of your real question, I think all that matters is that you can do what is necessary physically to pass the test. No one expects a PhD student to do press ups.

I would caution against anything that encourages people to think that they could have theoretical skill (as opposed to the theoretical knowledge of a coach). Some poor soul might be encouraged to hanker after a black belt that majors in theory.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't think "Master" should have a time table. Some guy who trains 2 hours a week for 12 years shouldn't have the same claim to "mastery"as someone training 12 to 15 hours a week for 12 years.

Honestly, I don't care for the term "Master," anyway.

If your students want to call you that, it's fine as a show of respect. If a grown-@ss man calls himself Master, he should be punched in the taint.

Well put.
That is why many organizations of "hours of in class/instruction" as a guideline.
Which I agree with.

[Drake]

People develop and grow at different rates, and some styles take longer than others. A timeline is a terrible idea.

[Lucas]

a base 'timeline' as a general guide as to time put in, in combination with proof in the puttin' is the best imo. if u say ur a masta...proove it.

and on that note. Master of what? If we say martial anything, you better be able to fight. if it has the word martial in it and you cant fight, and fight well mind you, you are not a master of what you think you are a masta of

[Subitai]

Good observations Sanjuro...

Just some thoughts: 12yrs though?

Some say not enough

Some say never use the word "Master" because implied somewhere is that once you have something mastered...then you have nothing left to learn. Of course that's not true.

Some say, only let others call you master, thus being more humble.

Some never give you respect as a master of any sort if your NOT Asian. (Sorry for the race card)

When you say "DO IT" I suppose you mean both Forms for example AND the ability to apply them. This duality always stirs most of the TIRADES that happen on this forum.

I cannot fully answer the question of a "Time Stamp" towards being a master...just my thoughts.

About the time stamps you posted. Assuming everyone had access to the same info and also the SAME work ethic....I think there are a couple of factors that either add time or minus some:

1) Intelligence

2) God given natural talent


*** Lastly, there are people who just rest on their laurels and never really TRY to improve after they get their Black Belt.

Similar to the old Kung Fu parable:

Man 1 walks up and says to man 2: How do I know your Kung fu is good?

Man 2 says: I've been doing it for over 30 yrs

Man 1: How do I know you haven't been doing 1 yr ... for 30yrs in a row?

"O"

[YouKnowWho]

In ACSCA, any level above 4th degree black belt are "contributation" reward. Contributation such as:

- train your combat team,
- publish DVD, book, ...
- offer workshop,
- offer tournament,
- offer demonstration,
- bring in new combat idea into the system,
- ...

[YouKnowWho]

4-5 years for a Black belt- "same time to get your high school diploma.
I have a guy who has been with me for 12 years. He just obtained his blue belt last year. Before that he had good time to wear his white belt in the MMA gym that he joints in. That MMA gym offers him to be a grappling instructor after he gets his black belt. That's was why he took his blue belt test last year and may take his 1st degree black belt next year. IMO, 13 years is more than enough for any 1st degree black belt.

I do think it's not fair for a 12 years experienced white belt to defeat another 6 years experienced black belt in different system. You may not care about your rank but for those who were defeated by you, they may say that you are cheating by hidding your skill level and experience behind your white belt.

[MasterKiller]

I do think it's not fair for a 12 years experienced white belt to defeat another 6 years experienced black belt in different system. You may not care about your rank but for those who were defeated by you, they may say that you are cheating by hidding your skill level and experience behind your white belt.
Once you have your "black" belt, all bets are off. If you don't think your black belt is equivalent to a black belt in another system, I'd say you probably shouldn't be wearing black at all.

[Dragonzbane76]

Honestly, I don't care for the term "Master," anyway.

To much "loaded" connotation for me.

[YouKnowWho]

Honestly, I don't care for the term "Master," anyway.

If US constituation allows the US president to run more than 2 terms, all presidents will try to run for their 3rd term.

- The 1st time when someone calls you "master", you may tell him don't do that.
- The 100th time when someone calls you "master", you may think it's not that bad.
- The 1000th time when someone "doesn't call" you "master", you will feel it's an insult.

This is the bad part of the human nature.

[omarthefish]

I don't think "Master" should have a time table. Some guy who trains 2 hours a week for 12 years shouldn't have the same claim to "mastery"as someone training 12 to 15 hours a week for 12 years.
.


Well put.
That is why many organizations of "hours of in class/instruction" as a guideline.
Which I agree with.

In keeping with the academic metaphor, I dunno about advanced degrees but for a BA that "4 years" assumes roughly 12-15 hours of in class time per week with about the same amount of at home study. So it's roughly 30 hours/week just for a BA.

[Brule]

So, when are we going to get into the whole 'Grand Master' discussion?

[sanjuro_ronin]

In keeping with the academic metaphor, I dunno about advanced degrees but for a BA that "4 years" assumes roughly 12-15 hours of in class time per week with about the same amount of at home study. So it's roughly 30 hours/week just for a BA.

Indeed.
So you see where I am going with this.
The JKA experimented with this and I a few organizations, like the IKO, have "training time" as a guideline for when a person is in line to take a test.
Old ITF guidelines were:
To Black belt, minimum 5 years with minimum 6 hours per week.
After 1st degree BB:
2 years for your 2nd, then 3 years for your 3rd after your second, then 4 years to 4th after your 3rd and so on...
After your 5th, the degrees were awarded based on contributions to the art and so forth.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, when are we going to get into the whole 'Grand Master' discussion?

In theory, the moment a person has trained another to the level of "master" then he/she is a "grand master".

[Brule]

A lot of times though it's by default and time served. ie; I've been training 45 years so I should be at grand master level by now. or it's given to you by the people.

For myself, i'm not a big fan of titles let alone ones done by time served.

[Miqi]

There is never one answer to these things. As a mark of respect, in some occasional, specific cultural and personal circumstances, prefixing someone's name with "master" can be a wholesome act.

As for the others, who turn "Master" into an actual prefix, like an academic or aristocratic title, why on earth would they do such a thing? How much it rubs against the grain to call another person "master" - I can't even stand these ceremonies where people grovel on their knees to become in-door students. Your actual level is your level, nothing else.

[Empty_Cup]

I favor merit-based promotion with a minimum threshold of time spent at level. What you want to do is set a minimum standard for the rank. Above and beyond this you'll always have people at different levels of performance.

A min. # of hours behind the wheel + demonstrating understanding by a written and practical test gets you a driver's license. It doesn't make you a champion race car driver...

So, for example, I like to see rankings setup like this:

White/Beginner - X hrs class time minimum
Demonstrate skill X
Demonstrate skill Y
Demonstrate skill Z
etc.

[bawang]

There is never one answer to these things. As a mark of respect, in some occasional, specific cultural and personal circumstances, prefixing someone's name with "master" can be a wholesome act.

As for the others, who turn "Master" into an actual prefix, like an academic or aristocratic title, why on earth would they do such a thing? How much it rubs against the grain to call another person "master" - I can't even stand these ceremonies where people grovel on their knees to become in-door students. Your actual level is your level, nothing else.

shifu dont mean measter. it means teacher father.

in class insist your students call you father. see how many show up next time.

westerner can roleplay a dog, but cant roleplay a son.

I favor merit-based promotion with a minimum threshold of time spent at level. What you want to do is set a minimum standard for the rank. Above and beyond this you'll always have people at different levels of performance.

A min. # of hours behind the wheel + demonstrating understanding by a written and practical test gets you a driver's license. It doesn't make you a champion race car driver...

So, for example, I like to see rankings setup like this:

White/Beginner - X hrs class time minimum
Demonstrate skill X
Demonstrate skill Y
Demonstrate skill Z
etc.
that aint traditional kung fu, thats some made up sh1t.

[md1]

In theory, the moment a person has trained another to the level of "master" then he/she is a "grand master".

The way I have always understood you couldn't be a GM until one of your students became a master AND had students of his own, much the same way you can't be a grandpa until your kids had kids.

I always learned it as like a family structure.

[bawang]

The way I have always understood you couldn't be a GM until one of your students became a master AND had students of his own, much the same way you can't be a grandpa until your kids had kids.

I always learned it as like a family structure.

no such thing as grandmaster. the term is teacher and grandfather.

westerners use the term "master" because its a game of pretend, like in bdsm. you get on all four naked and someone spanks you and you call him master, but when you get up its over. its all a game. but when you call someone father, brother, then it gets too real.


keep your eye out for those students that always call you master. those are the snakes you gotta watch out for.

[YouKnowWho]

no such thing as grandmaster.

After a master is dead, you may call him grandmaster just to honor his life time contributation. I'll never call anybody who is still alive as GM.

[Lucas]

What about grandmaster flash?

[Miqi]

shifu dont mean measter. it means teacher father.

in class insist your students call you father. see how many show up next time.



I don't have any students. But when I did, they called me by my given name.

Westerners are just as capable of seeing someone as a father-like teacher as Chinese people are.

[Empty_Cup]

I don't have any students. But when I did, they called me by my given name.

Westerners are just as capable of seeing someone as a father-like teacher as Chinese people are.

bawang is incapable of understanding this because he's a racist.

[bawang]

bawang is incapable of understanding this because he's a racist.

western is not a race. :):):):):):):)


Westerners are just as capable of seeing someone as a father-like teacher as Chinese people are.

master dominates dog. father loves son. words reflect thoughts reflect action.

[Yum Cha]

The problem with a timeline is that not all students are equal. From the gifted to the un-co, each should be able to progress at their own rate, and gather their own lessons as they are able.

What is rank? A measure of pure skill? Is teaching a more important skill than fighting for a senior, or vice versa? Does a poor fighter that works hard over years and comes to understand much of the technique deserve a 'rank?' We all know 12 year old black belts....

We have a traditional take, which is really informal:

There is a line a student crosses when they learn the advanced stuff, and I guess that is the first rank. Call it an equivalent of Black Belt.

(For my Pak Mei brothers, we had 5 guys start Gau Bo Twi just recently).

From there rank distributes as well to my mind. Some guys are better teachers, better at technique, some are better fighters, some are better historians and culture guys, maybe lion dancing too. Rank becomes a matrix of technique, fighting skill, commitment, contribution and seniority.

In our school we have a cadre of senior students that teach, each has a special set of skills, personality, whatever, to offer. Sifu keeps it all under his control.

Like Bwang said, you can be demoted for being a dhick weed too. Usually around not knowing your manners, and showing disrespect. Seen some ass kickings too...in the middle ranks to sort out issues.

Like David said, rank is only relevant to people who know the score, and if you know the score, why do you need rank insignia? Its not the army.

No free rides due to your 'rank' , you have to maintain it daily. Its more about the respect you have earned over your career than who you can whip.

I'm one of those that believe the title Master is a compliment, not a title. I think its an English thing anyway. Every wrinkled up old life long kung fu player I've known was called Sifu. Or one of the family titles, uncle, grandpa, etc.

[GeneChing]

It's in fencing: Prevost Master D'Armes. I have two of them actually, one from SJSU and ROTC and the other from the USFCA. Our examination was both physical and academic. I'm amused that we'd be so divisive to make such a distinction. If you're a master, you should master both. My fencing exam was i front of a board exam of three certified masters presiding. There was a written exam, an oral exam, a demonstrative exam and a thesis had to be submitted and approved. It was quite rigorous.

That being said, people call me master or shifu a lot, given my position. I used to demur at the label, but now I don't bother to do so as much. It's not that I think I'm some sort of master. Far from it. Given the number of genuine masters that I've met, I know I'm way behind their level. At the same time, I've met a lot of so-called masters that proudly declare their title on their business cards, and I feel I'm on a higher level then them. Of course, it's not about comparison, so it really depends on who is calling me master. If it's some little kid, or some nooB, I let it pass. If it's from the forum here, you guys are probably adding 'bator' as a suffix. If it's from some other master, I'll say 'nali?'


What about grandmaster flash? Good one, L. I always thought Master/Grandmaster was parallel to Father/Grandfather.

[md1]

no such thing as grandmaster. the term is teacher and grandfather.

westerners use the term "master" because its a game of pretend, like in bdsm. you get on all four naked and someone spanks you and you call him master, but when you get up its over. its all a game. but when you call someone father, brother, then it gets too real.


keep your eye out for those students that always call you master. those are the snakes you gotta watch out for.

No shiznit!

My teacher was always Sifu to me and Sigung to my students. He was always like a dad to me and never had a problem calling him pop.
No one in my school uses the term master or GM.

[bawang]

No shiznit!

My teacher was always Sifu to me and Sigung to my students. He was always like a dad to me and never had a problem calling him pop.
No one in my school uses the term master or GM.

you are a man of great honer. im cry tear.

What about grandmaster flash?

in wombat combat, you must refer to your teacher as "my lord", in a british accent.

the grandmaster is referred to as "king of kings, lord of lords, the lion of yahuda".

[David Jamieson]

***edit*** I always thought Master/Grandmaster was parallel to Father/Grandfather.

It has become that.
In the mid-late 80's the term emerged from the filial recognitions given in Kung Fu schools.
People were more familiar with the idea of master's master being the grandmaster as opposed to the grandfather.
It was easier to say grandmaster than sigung or great grandmaster than dai sigung and so on.
The terms were anglified, but in Chinese martial arts, the term "grandmaster" is pretty new an is strictly associated with interest in EuroCentric countries including North, Central and South America.

[ShaolinDan]

I don't really understand the hang up about the term "master."

When it comes to martial arts instructors many people seem to jump to the notion of "master/servant" relationship, but that's the wrong 'master.' We have people with Master's degrees, we have master carpenters, master plumbers, master electricians, master welders, master craftsmen, and so on, all denoting a high degree of skill/knowledge... What's the big deal about being a martial arts master?

Anyway, to the main topic, I'm against applying any universal rules to martial arts, as I love the variety available in the MA world, but I believe that rank should be a combination of ability and knowledge. Everyone should have both to varying degrees, but we all have our own areas where we excel (and where we struggle).

[I've never been a gifted athlete, but I've always been a successful scholar--I certainly want my ability to be as high as it can be, but I'm never going to be amazing at applying my gongfu, however, I still believe/hope I can be an excellent teacher. :)]

[RickMatz]

The 8th Dan Kendo test in Japan.xhttp://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.com/2012/12/studying-way-through-swordsmanship.html?m=0

[unyma]

Why is it necessary to have ranking at all? Isn't it more logical to evaluate a person's skill level (both physical and academic) and teach based on that? When the skill level goes up you teach something that will improve it more. I realize the "business" consequences of that but I'm ignoring it.

[Sihing73]

Why is it necessary to have ranking at all? Isn't it more logical to evaluate a person's skill level (both physical and academic) and teach based on that? When the skill level goes up you teach something that will improve it more. I realize the "business" consequences of that but I'm ignoring it.

Hello,

One reason to have ranking is in order to classify students at a somewhat equal level. Brown belts training with brown rather than white or black for example. Also, by having a rank structure a student can go to another school, of the same lineage/organization and be able to train at essentially the same level. There may be some differences, but in an organized lineage those would be minimal. If you were a 3rd level then everyone would know what you had learned or at least be pretty close.

Correct me if I am mistaken; my understanding of rank is that it was developed by Dr. Kano as a means of promoting Judo to the public. Rank provided a baseline for people to train and provided the opportunity to allow people to train with and compete against those of the same level. It provided a structured program to allow a steady and measurable method of progression from beginner to advanced level.

Ranking was then embraced as a means of marketing and of making money.

When I did WT I trained in Germany and then came back to America. I will never forget a conversation I had with one of the heads of the US in AZ. He asked what level my primary instructor was in Germany and I told him he was a 2nd level. This guy then told me how he was a 3rd level and I replied that my Sihing in Germany would "eat him for breakfast" which was true. When some other visited from Germany this same person called me to ask if I knew how they trained over there. The rank did not mean anything without the skill behind it. The person in the US had all of the technical stuff down for the 3rd level but my Sihing in Germany had put in a lot more time and had a more thorough grasp of the concepts and basics, IMHO, which made him more effective again in my opinion. Also, several of those I trained with in Germany really did not seem to care if they advanced much beyond 1st or 2nd level unless they were trying to teach as their means of making a living or for recognition.

[PalmStriker]

what if your lineage doesnt use ranking? :eek:

Then you are in luck. No diversions. :)

[PalmStriker]

To much "loaded" connotation for me.

I think all students should be referred to as "slaves" until they reach the rank of "Master". Who wouldn't rather be a Master than a Slave? Good for serious motivation. :) MasterMojo would be a good title for a master with 7 degrees. That's why Sifu has such a nice non-Latin ring to it. It also sounds cooler than sensei. Unless you can walk on water like Jesus or the Master of Sunanju, you should shun the title of "Master". http://movieclips.com/vH3L-remo-williams-the-adventure-begins-movie-walking-on-water/

[PalmStriker]

There is never one answer to these things. As a mark of respect, in some occasional, specific cultural and personal circumstances, prefixing someone's name with "master" can be a wholesome act.

As for the others, who turn "Master" into an actual prefix, like an academic or aristocratic title, why on earth would they do such a thing? How much it rubs against the grain to call another person "master" - I can't even stand these ceremonies where people grovel on their knees to become in-door students. Your actual level is your level, nothing else.
People grovel on their knees? I thought that was only done in the Corporate World. :D

[PalmStriker]

shifu dont mean measter. it means teacher father.

in class insist your students call you father. see how many show up next time.

westerner can roleplay a dog, but cant roleplay a son.

that aint traditional kung fu, thats some made up sh1t.
You bawanged that nail on the head. :D

[PalmStriker]

no such thing as grandmaster. the term is teacher and grandfather.

westerners use the term "master" because its a game of pretend, like in bdsm. you get on all four naked and someone spanks you and you call him master, but when you get up its over. its all a game. but when you call someone father, brother, then it gets too real.


keep your eye out for those students that always call you master. those are the snakes you gotta watch out for.
Snake style Yiu Choi is good to use for that. :D

[GeneChing]

***edit*** I always thought Master/Grandmaster was parallel to Father/Grandfather.
It has become that. Who are Grandmaster Flash's grandstudents?

[David Jamieson]

Who are Grandmaster Flash's grandstudents?

Grandwizard Theodore is his (GM Flash) protege, attributed with creation of scratch.

As for GW theodore, he has the fantastic 5 who are: Waterbed Kev (Kevin Strong), Master Rob (Robin Strong), Dot-A-Rock (Darryl Mason), Prince Whipper Whip (James Whipper), Ruby Dee (Rubin Garcia)

so those last 5 guys would be technically Grand Master Flashes Grandstudents.

BAM!

You're welcome. :p

[Lucas]

hey gene, hows it feel to get b!tch slapped?

[GeneChing]

Do any of those guys have students? Because if so, we must promote Grandmaster Flash to Great Grandmaster Flash.


hows it feel to get b!tch slapped? As if you don't already know...

[Lucas]

lol!!!!!!!!!!