Finding The Correct Horse Stance

[Rover]

Hello,i know many our friends having problem with practicing horse stance and they doing it mostly wrong.To help them i want to share some of my knowledge about horse stance and i'd like to know if im wrong.So,lets start with wrong horse stances.
https://www.forrestyoga.com/images/gallery_photos/1303922052.jpghttp://www.streetbonersandtvcarnage.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/HorseStance.jpg
http://www.martialdevelopment.com/wordpress/wp-content/images/forbidden-kingdom-monk.jpghttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_e6y3kXV1Wqg/SdQmzwKFoYI/AAAAAAAABd4/2fb2OvTKF4Y/s400/horse+stance.jpg
Pictures above good examples for wrong horse stances,they trying to look like sit on invinsible chairs.What makes them wrong?Horse stance for combat,must be usefull for it but stances above arent.They havn't balance,mobility also you cant even move in a stance like this,its locked.Anything touch you and you will fall to ground.Groin and balls are down,booms with a kick.
Also its bad for your health,if you trying to get leg muscles like that i say be careful.I tryed to make my legs stronger long ago with that wrong stance and my knee got hurt because of too many weight loaded on it as doctor says.It still hurts when i do low stances and cracking.Lets check correct horse stances of fighting arts.

http://www.hungkuen.it/images/Lam-Sai-Wing-76---Copia.jpghttp://www.lamgagungfu.sk/en//images/rsgallery/original/zlam_sai_wing_01.jpghttp://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-78a7eefe7d2b306f71bd962861fa34c0http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_OsNTqq8yW8A/TEoGTHMksZI/AAAAAAAAAYQ/v71_Sq0NmCU/s320/sillum.jpghttp://avatarthelastairbenderonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Hunggar.bmp
Lets look at pictures above,they are correct horse stances,they have what a horse stance needs ;
They are balanced,you can keep in this stance for long time without hurting your joints and your back,and still get leg muscles.
Groin and balls are upside,cant easyly kicked upward.
They are not locked and they have mobility.So you can do things like chaning stance,kicking,stepping-moving qucikly.
Your weight balanced on legs and one cant easly move you because your weight sticking you to ground.
This facts makes a horse stance strong and powerfull.
There is not just one way for correct horse stance,its correct if its usefull.
I hope i makes even a little sense for anyone who read it,thanks for reading.

[PalmStriker]

All horse stanced out from previous thread on subject. :) Welcome to KFM forum! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPgZbRTEvr0

[Rover]

All horse stanced out from previous thread on subject. :) Welcome to KFM forum!

i saw that thread and i though a reply wouldn't be enough,thanks :)

[PalmStriker]

Yes. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-ptpERFVeY

[Subitai]

Love the Lam Tsai Wing references :D:D:D:D


...So basically everyone should just do Hung Gar?


Who am I to fault that line of genius? Sweet!!! :D:D:D:D


See big bro Gene...it ALWAYS comes back to Hung Style!!!

This calls for one of my old favorites:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwDgd-tFIaM
"Hey man, Is that Freedom Rock?" "Well Turn it up man!"

haha, "O"

[Rover]

Love the Lam Tsai Wing references :D:D:D:D


...So basically everyone should just do Hung Gar?


Bro... I know all pics from hung gar but as i said in post :

There is not just one way for correct horse stance,its correct if its usefull.
Sorry i checked on web but couldn't get any good quality horse s. pictures of old masters.I'd put here if i had.Im not a hung gar nazi . :D

[David Jamieson]

While there is different levels of training horse stance I think it's not something to just mish mash.

A high horse has different purpose than big square horse for instance and they are used in different circumstances. Not really mix and match.

And obviously, correct alignment is important.

Having said that, the guy in the white shirt doing big square horse is the classical shape of it.

LSW shape lends itself to the mobility demands of the set he is demonstrating.

No comment on the others.

[Sima Rong]

The guy in the white tee shirt does look to be doing a classical low horse stance. Many stances can be done at different heights too, I think, in practice and in application. Some people can move from a low horse stance quite quickly too. It all depends what you are trying to do. I have a lot of work to do on mine though. Im just aware that stances can be done at different heights, and there are reasons for this.

[HmorenoM]

Nicre thread, and well, about that last pic (wrong horse stance group). What you you think about
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_LNhC9Q2qcys/St3gg5H44WI/AAAAAAAAAA8/pLhsYq0LZFQ/s400/DeYang+mabu+y+alumnos.
Shi De Yang's horse stance :confused: i mean, i don't want to argue, i'm just asking about it because he says that when practicing horse stance you should be able to put a water cup in your legs with no spilling it; but for that you have to make a really low horse stance, and well, you already said why it could no be correct having a low horse stance like in the pictures.



There is not just one way for correct horse stance,its correct if its usefull.


Agree

[SteveLau]

Rover,

Good post. I still remember well the time when I first started training CMA as if it was yesterday. One of the instructors there sat in a low horse stance during a sparring session with another instructor. He could still move well, and even launched kick attack. That showed a good stance can has good mobility as well as stability.



Regards,

Steve Lau

[YouKnowWho]

When practicing horse stance you should be able to put a water cup in your legs with no spilling it;
The way that you train your shoulder throw is to hold on your opponent's belt (on the waist) with both hands and throw him over your head. If you can do that, you should have no problem to throw your opponent over your head when grabbing on his arm. When you do that, your legs can be lower than 90 degree angle.

[RenDaHai]

Shi De Yang's horse stance :confused: i mean, i don't want to argue, i'm just asking about it because he says that when practicing horse stance you should be able to put a water cup in your legs with no spilling it; but for that you have to make a really low horse stance, and well, you already said why it could no be correct having a low horse stance like in the pictures.


Ma Bu, Horse step, Generally a dynamic movement you do in combat. Not something you stand there and hold in front of an opponent. When you use Ma bu, the way you do it is defined by the specific application. The point is it is heavy, it is strong in the vertical direction. You use this stepping technique when you want that attribute.

Ma Bu Zhan Zhuang, Horse stance, When you hold a horse stance for the purpose of training. Again there are variations depending on what it is you are training. But generally we want to build both strength and flexibility of body and endurance of the mind. So yes, it must be low. THis is much much more difficult. If you are training QiGong then it is higher. There is a biting point where if you go too low it becomes the 'toilet' stance and is easier, just before this point the stance is at its most difficult to hold. That is where the water comes in.


SiPing Ma is an extreme position, it can not be held for a very long time. Most people deride the stance simply because they cannot even get close to it. It is important to note that this stance is a little different for every different person. When held there should be no feeling of pressure inside the knees, one can adjust the position accordingly.

http://aranyayoga.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/jackie-chan-horse-stance.jpg

In this picture you can see the spike below jackie, this is to stop him making the stance easier by going lower and forming the 'toilet stance'. So he is holding it at about the most difficult point. From this position it is possible to make the stance exponentially more difficult by adjusting the spine to become less slanted.

[HmorenoM]

Thank you RDH and YKW, that why i like to ask here, i know people will answer nicely and with all the arguments they can. Always learning. Thank you very much :) ;)

[Rover]

Thanks everyone for replyes,nice to get somethings from your knowledges.

[A BIONIC LEG]

So riddle me this... My take on dude in the white shirt is this. If you can execute that type of horse (90 degree at ankles knees with straight back) and effectively transfer into either a. Another stance without hesitation, or b. shift into a kick or other strike without a loss in timing. You my friend are a bad a@@. My reasoning is this, in order to execute said attacks or techniques your strength and flexibility must be on point.


I do want too get something out of the way however. I get the biggest kick (no pun intend however funny) out of no educated or ignorant individuals that view "stances" as the only way martial artists fight. "Hang on let me get into my stance" bwahahahahaha always makes me laugh REALLY hard. I believe that stance training in general is to increase flexibility and strength required to execute different techniques.

[bawang]

horse stance training would be worth something if you poosies use weights.

shaolin monks use like 200 pounds of weights for their horse stance. plus the stability poles.

[Lucas]

because you called me poosie on the internet i am going to build up to 200lb weight on my horse stance.

no one insults me on the internet and gets away without changing my life!

[YouKnowWho]

So riddle me this... My take on dude in the white shirt is this. If you can execute that type of horse (90 degree at ankles knees with straight back) and effectively transfer into either a. Another stance without hesitation, or b. shift into a kick or other strike without a loss in timing. You my friend are a bad a@@. My reasoning is this, in order to execute said attacks or techniques your strength and flexibility must be on point.

At 1.15, a horse stance with straight back is used. The straight back is important for "firemen's carry" if you don't want to hurt your back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX3kucj_b_8

The horse stance training is a MUST if you want to develop:

- hip throw,

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm

- shoulder throw,

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ipponseoi.htm

- rear throw,

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uranage.htm

- firemen's carry.

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kataguruma.htm

When you train, you try to go as ow as you can. When you apply, you use whatever that is necessary.

[RenDaHai]

I do want too get something out of the way however. I get the biggest kick (no pun intend however funny) out of no educated or ignorant individuals that view "stances" as the only way martial artists fight. "Hang on let me get into my stance" bwahahahahaha always makes me laugh REALLY hard. I believe that stance training in general is to increase flexibility and strength required to execute different techniques.


Well, yes, the name of the technique, MA BU, means horse STEP not horse stance. It is a common misconception. All of the kung fu steps are methods of walking and transferring weight or lifting/squating momentarily as opposed to static postures. They are dynamic movements.

The static postures are used to develop strength and flexibility and agility. If you can do the most extreme movements then moving in the normal frame of movement is effortless.

[YouKnowWho]

All of the kung fu steps are methods of walking and transferring weight or lifting/squating momentarily as opposed to static postures. They are dynamic movements.
When talking about kung fu step, if you want to change from horse stance into a left bow-arrow stance, will you turn your right foot on your ball or on your heel? The longfist way is to turn on the ball.

http://imageshack.us/a/img98/8641/horsestance.jpg

[RenDaHai]

When talking about kung fu step, if you want to change from horse stance into a left bow-arrow stance, will you turn your right foot on your ball or on your heel? The longfist way is to turn on the ball.

http://imageshack.us/a/img98/8641/horsestance.jpg

Well, both feet turn. And generally yes, we say the front leg (bent) is turned more on the heel and the rear leg (straight) is turned more on the ball.

But the focus is less specific then that and more ont he overall power and structure so in fast action it is not easy to see exactly what pivoted where.

This transition is very common in training but in application it is rare to use it, with the other more direct transition superseding it such as Xu bu---Gong bu without the need of an intermediate, and the gong bu collapsing immediately after use.

[YouKnowWho]

such as Xu bu---Gong bu without the need of an intermediate,
In longfist, we move Xu Bu (empty stance) into 4-6 stance, and then into Gong Bu.

Xu Bu (0-100) -> 4-6 stance (40-60) -> Gong Bu (70-30)

Since 4-6 stance is the variation of the horse stance, we can still call it goes through horse stance, the transaction when you shift weight from one leg into another.

[RenDaHai]

In longfist, we move Xu Bu (empty stance) into 4-6 stance, and then into Gong Bu.


An excellent transition to be sure. We tend to use SiLuBu and Ma bu from 'entanglement' that is the phase of combat where for whatever reason our arms have become intertwined with the enemies. From this position reaction time is much faster since you can sense their body and powerful grip of the floor is necessary to prevent being thrown.

However often times the combat takes place at 'detached' phase, where the fighters are striking but pulling their hands back not maintaining contact. Where the eyes are the main source of perception. In this phase we tend to use XuBu and JinJiDuLi and 'pounce' from Xu bu to gong bu so that upon landing the strike is made. In this case there is not time for intermediate. Similarly we use variations of JinJiDuLi to guard against kicks, and land from this stance directly into gong bu. Also the 'butterfly' transition is often used.

On a side not Shaolins XuBu in application is almost identical to DingBu that is that the empty leg is very close to the solid leg, almost touching at the feet. Not extended like in many of the photos. And on another note in my sect Gong Bu is only used when striking with the front hand, for the rear hand yao bu is used and the transition is more like walking.

[EarthDragon]

funny that no one mentioned application yet. In 8 step like many other styles the horse stance is where you END in after an application, not to fight from it is the end result of a move not the position from enguard.

For mere training only internal as well as external this position strengthens the body, increases the YIN flow of the kidneys, aligns the hui yin, fu zong chin, and the bai wei.

A proper horse the feet point straight, the quads are parallel with the floor and the sacrum is tucked in to align the spine, chamber the fists tight to the sides and tuck the elbows toawasrds each other so that the fists are perfectly facing forward.
tongue of the soft pallet of the mouth, eyes focused 6 feet ahead of you on the floor. hold as long as you can . When you reach 15 minutes you are starting to begin the excersize then work your way up to as long as youcan even if you shake hold the position, in about 6 months you should be a the 30 minute mark

[A BIONIC LEG]

Thanks Earth, I will use that to better my stance, because it sucks.