How do you remember your forms?

[HuangKaiVun]

I have a friend who's a terrific martial artist and sifu.

He has crosstrained in many different methods, and he's constantly learning new stuff. What he does WORKS for him in combat.

Once, I asked him "How do you remember all that stuff" and he said "I don't, but I write it all down".

That shocked me a bit, though I can see how effective that would be. That's because I practice a single fist set with only 36 moves - and that's the empty-hand training of my style along with a two man matching hand set!

For me, I just keep doing that little form over and over again. It took me quite some time to learn it by memory, but I did it. My sifu is constantly pushing me to become more and more attentive to detail.

What do you guys do to memorize your forms, particularly those of you that train large systems?

[joedoe]

Practice

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Practice

"Life's a great Adventure, Mate"
Jacko Jackson

[don bohrer]

I dont try learn a whole form at once, and I make sure what I learn in the school I have down before leaving.

[EARTH DRAGON]

the best way is to practice them with the 5 elements, the 2nd is to write them down and the 3rd is to video tape them so you can watch your self performing then understand how you can improve them.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[SevenStar]

practice daily. the videotaping idea is good also. It's really not so hard once you get in the habit of practicing them.

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

[WongFeHung]

At last count, I have learned over 98 forms-how many do I remember? Dang, I've forgotten entire systems!(I intentially forgot the entire Villari kempo;-) I vaguely remember my northern stuff, lien bo kuen is gone, Gung Lik Kuen is vague,gwai-ding is vague, but my tan tuie is intact-not bad for 29 yrs ago, my pinans are still okay,bassai is ok, naihanchi is gone-I quit right after Ilearned it. My Lam Sai-Wing gung-ji, and fu-hok are pretty gone-I prefer the Tang-Fung, but i practice the Sup Ying Kuen. I write down the weapon sets, because my sifu force-fed me them. Some sets I no longer practiceed after i researched them and found them to be bogus-made up by previous instructors who lacked the true understanding of their art, Some are on the back burner to be worked on in depth as my progress continues. My curriculum I know-because I teach it every day. This seems to be the best way to know, remember, and truly understand them, by teaching.It brings out all the subtle nuances, as you are constantly explaining, demonstrating, correcting their form-and your own. So much for "those who can't-teach".

[Crimson Phoenix]

As many said already: PRACTICE...there's nothing likee muscle memory...however, videotaping it can be a very good thing: if you practice the form enough and tape it, in case you forget it later the video will remind you the rough stuff and your body will remember the details along the way...

[Kristoffer]

I dont see how he can be GOOD at "what he does", make it work for him if he have to write it down . When going to a fight, does he have to pick up his note book first?

form collecting is probebly fun, but I pesonly dont think that its a great ideé. That may be just me?

~K~
"maybe not in combat.. but think of the chicks man, the chicks!" -- someone on the subject of back-flips in combat --

[Robinf]

I practice, write it down as I practice (sometimes drawing stick figures), and with some forms I video tape and leave it in my archive.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[shaolinboxer]

Pracitce, yes yes. But writing it down has been they key to transmission of many styles.

The school I attend has a manual that decribes every technique and it's method of execution (in nicely abbreviated japanese). I find this interesting becuase you can see that the forms are a series of assembled individual techniques. This allows for more solo study too.

[Budokan]

The first time I learn a kata I too write it all down. Then, of course, I practice it. But the act of writing it down initially leads into formation of new cognitive ways of looking/learning at the kata and shouldn't be dismissed.

Your thread leads into another question. When do you guys feel you "own" a kata/form? In another words, sure you may know the movements of a kata, but how long do you have to practice it before you feel you own that kata? In shotokan the rule of thumb is if you practice the kata 1000 times you'll own it--this was an old Funakoshi rule.

K. Mark Hoover

[KC Elbows]

You don't write it down to remember it during a fight, you write details down over successive lessons so that you can review the concepts and work on incorporating them into the techniques, so that, once they are all incorporated, THEN you can use it in a fight.

I'm picky on forms. One sifu came up with a fan form, and it wasn't the S***, so I didn't learn it. I have a very defined list of what I wish to learn, and I don't get distracted from that list unless my sifu can come up with a compelling reason that the form will improve my kung fu. Here's my list:

Six Elbows basic form(learned it-basic southern kung fu primer)

Little Buddha(Intermediate six elbows form that begins to touch on the internal side of the art)

Bi Da(Six Elbows again, but far more of the internal stuff-learning it right now)

Other stuff that I have not learned yet, but is on my list:
Six Elbows internal form(last of the six-elbows open hand stuff)
Knife-for home/self defense
Six Elbows spear-for the chi cultivation
pa kua(once I've shown skill in the six elbows internal form)

I think the key is to keep your training focused. Some forms collectors are good martial artists because they collected forms that made sense together, and some suck, because they just learned whatever in whatever order.

[Kung Lek]

You just have to practice.

When you accumulate a few forms, practice them all but break it up so you practice two forms one day, the next two on the following day and so on.

Then set aside time to practice further that which you are weak in.

Retention only comes through constant repitition.
If you don't practice your stuff you will forget it.
In a fight, you go with the second nature of what you have ingrained through practice. It's not like you are going to do a form in a fight, you are going to use that which comes to your readily as a result of the inculcation of practice.

Practice, Practice, Practice, it is the only way you will get the stuff into you.

Keeping reference material is handy, but has little value when compared to the actual doing of the forms you have been taught.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[KC Elbows]

Not being argumentative, but I've seen a lot of guys practice their forms an awful lot, but not implement all the details their teacher has ever told them because they forgot them. The first time I learn a technique or portion of form, I pay attention to all the statements my teacher might make about the form, because most of the time, when first working on a new technique, it is all the student can do to remember the gross movements of the form. Practice of those gross movements does not necessarily teach you the details. However, once you have the gross movements down, if you have documented further instructions that you couldn't implement before, then you can further your form. However, if you don't have it documented, then you must wait til class and make your teacher repeat what he already said.

Practice is extremely important, but unfocussed practice is worse than none at all, because it ingrains bad habits. Ancient monks often couldn't read, but had endless hours to practice. Most of us don't have endless hours, but we can read and write, and its foolish to not use your brain to maximize your practice.

So if you can write, its my opinion that you'd better write everything you can down about your lessons. Your teacher has to repeat himself enough without you forgetting what he already told you.

[wu_de36]

I've tried to get into the habit of writing down a few notes after each class, or during the occasional water break.

Chances are, some notes I will immediately appreciate and begin using. Others I won't find as useful, but I'll write them down anyways for the day I'm more willing to experiment, or to pass on to my future students.

The only problem is that I used to be pretty unorganized and wrote these notes all over the freakin place on any scrap of paper I could find. Sometimes they're in a notebook, on the back of a flyer, in a book, or in my palm pilot. One day I should go through each form and take all the applicable notes and put them to one source.

And then, lose it :)

[Kung Lek]

KC, I agree, practicing incoorectly is worse than not practicing at all.
So, yes, the essence of the form and sequence is learned first, then comes refinement along with extrapolation of application.

So, you should know a form in essence and sequence and a fair deal of the applications before even beginning another form.

At least that is how my sifu taught me. No new stuff til what you have is down.

In some forms, changes are made later after a student has developed the required ability to make the adaptations. This is presented to the student much later sometimes.

For instance I learned the same form three different ways in one case. i also was taught that in some forms one could repeat a particular motion 3 times or 5 times or more lengthening or shortening the duration of the form without omiting content.

This was usually more true of the soutern forms I was taught as opposed to the northern Shaolin where the form was the form period. you did it from start to finish the same way each time. However, it was always encouraged to break all the formsdown and practice singular applications and techniques from within the forms by themselves to develop effectiveness with those applications.

I do make a point of writing every single thing down, and would do so either immediately on a break or immediately following a class. I usually was very careful as to the amount of questions I asked so that I would only have a little bit to remember instead of trying to remember a whole bunch of things and forgetting some of the more important stuff.

It is always better in my opinion to absorb a little bit and do that little bit a lot before moving on.

I practice all the forms I was taught all the time. I review notes and even watch videos of myself and then once or twice a year make new videos and compare them to keep up with improvements or to make note of where I need improvements.

So I agree, constant testing and reviewing of the self is absolutely necessary, but the first and foremost requirement is doing through practice.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[KC Elbows]

Agreed Kung Lek. Its interesting to hear your impression on southern forms tending to have more variation in the way you practice them. My longfist is pretty much written in stone, but all my six elbows, which is southern, has lots of variations. As an example, there is a shuffle called biu ma that is common in the system(not identical to wing chun's biu ma, ours looks just like hsing yi when done correcly). Now, I noticed my teacher did biu ma on certain techniques in one form, but did not teach it to me that way. He told me to try putting biu ma into every technique I could, and observe what happens. In the end, his form and mine look very different, we biu ma on completely different steps, but neither of us is wrong, as he is short and must shuffle in on some steps that I would normally already be in range on, and I biu ma on other steps because of my size and mass.

We also learn forms in three steps, basically the groos movements, then the refinements, then the power. Of course, the form I'm working on now is more internal, so the order is somewhat different, but not much. Its intersting to hear of others who practice the same way.

The video thing is a great suggestion. In the past, I limited that to when I was preparing for demonstrations, but I really should make it a regular part of my practice.

Again, I agree about learning a little at a time. I am not by any means a fast learner, and my real advantage is that I love to do things many times over, so that I may not learn fast, but I do learn correctly(in the long run). My problem is that teachers always give me more details than I can necessarily implement right there, so I keep track of them and later in the week/month/year, when I've gotten some confidence in the technique, I can implement those changes.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Uhhh, what was the question again? :D

[KC Elbows]

Question? Isn't this the post about kicking dogs? ;)

[Ironpig]

Learn them over and over again as if I was a beginner every so often, learning more of what I missed each time.

Try to learn principles rather than movements, the principles can be taken from the form (syllabus) and studied independently. Then go back and learn it again for the first time with a better understanding of that principle.

Lo and behold the form is easier to understand.

Seems to work, though it certainly is taking me longer to accumulate forms.

just a few pennies from a pig.....
-"bigger is BIGGER"

IronPig

[KC Elbows]

Good advice from an iron pig!

I also find that, if I can't physically do the form right there(say I'm driving on the freeway, and dropping to a twisting stance could prove deadly), I'll run through the order of the form in my head over and over.

Also, little things like hand position can be practiced any time(I constantly do lotus palm, tiger palm, and phoenix eye fist while driving).

[Stranger]

(enters from stage left, steps up to mike, clears throat)

I DON'T.

(nods towards audience, exits stage left)

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Gargoyle again]

I think I have learned around 15-20 open hand and 3 weapon sets so far.

My process goes, learn step by step, writing down everything. Then work on the complete form, practice, revising and clarifying what I've written down. Practice some more until I feel confident that my notes/mind/body are all on the same wavelength. Then promptly forget it ;)

I keep a "hot list" of about 5 forms that I can knock out at any time, well tuned and practiced. The rest I leave archived in my notes for reference. I'll occaisonally rotate old forgotten forms thru my hot list, re-learning them from my notes.

I can't stress how important it is to either write down or videotape everything you learn. Nothing sucks more than leaving a kung fu school and 6 months later forgetting a valuable beautiful form and never be able to get it back

"You should never, never doubt what no one is sure about."
--Willie Wonka

[EARTH DRAGON]

lets not forget that one of the most important things about learning forms is learning or knowing the applications for with out it forms are but empty shells.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[KC Elbows]

Kung Lek already covered that base, Earth Dragon. Thanks for the heads up, though.

[HuangKaiVun]

I agree with Earth Dragon in that I don't "know" a form until I know it inside out with applications and everything.

So even though I've studied probably over 30 forms in my lifetime, I only KNOW half of one: the one I'm currently doing. And I am not even CLOSE to learning everything about it yet.

Without a doubt, how one learns the form depends on the style he trains in and ultimately on the martial artist himself.

[KC Elbows]

What form are you learning now, Huang?

[Wongsifu]

funnily enough i have the weirdest method of learning stuff , you know they say that muscles have a memory well i use that , to actually learn a form it takes me 2-3 times as long as other people i feel almost stupid. The other thing is i cant remember it eather BUT
When it comes to performing it i can do it to perfection once i start even if its after 10 years provided i have done it enough times, whereas other people i trained with used to pick it up much faster but after 1 year they forget it without daily practise.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[neptunesfall]

i learn a form in sections. certain parts of a form will flow together better for me. the last things i will learn are the movements inbetween the sections. it's an easy way to learn, for me, but it's also an easy way to forget.
i've forgotten the non flowing parts of a 5 animal form i learned.....and now the entire form has gone to sh*t. :mad:
i've just recently committed to writing my forms and taichi down, movement by movement.
2 notebooks of kung fu :D

[EARTH DRAGON]

when learning forms the first level is mental memory, the 2nd is muscle memory and the 3rd is cellular memory
mental memory is like remembering a phone #
muscle memory is like having to dial it before you can remember.
and cellular memory....well I havent got a good explanation for that one but its like formless form. those of you who really know your forms know what I mean.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Wongsifu]

dude i never thought about cellular memory as opposed to muscular. thats cool

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[omegapoint]

There are 2 types of memory: Implicit and Explicit. The question you bring up requires the former- Implicit Memory. Implicit memory deals with procedural tasks and learning, like riding a bike, learning a new football or basketball play, shooting, MAs forms practice, etc.. This type of memory is enhanced primarily through repetition. Those with a greater ability to learn unfamiliar tasks quickly may not need to practice as often, but repetition is a must to tighten your skizzills.

The form is actually etched into your MOTOR MEMORY in a portion of your brain (NOT MUSCLE MEMORY-- MUSCLES DON'T HAVE MEMORY). The area of the brain that controls the things involved with movement is called the Cerebellum. That's your neuroscience 101 factoid of the day. The Hippocampus has a role in this process, too.

The old Okinawan masters use to say it took at least 10 years, if not longer, to begin to master just 1 kata (form)! So be patient. We all learn at different speeds. Later, and happy training!

[EARTH DRAGON]

Not to correct you but my shrfu is a chinese medical doctor and has taught us about myology. So to make myself more clear and further elaoborate on mucle memory, It is whats known as mykinesis, which is the movement of mucsles and the displacement of muscle fibers in action. Those kinetic levels are stored like memory in the lipomatous elements, though orignally signaled from the brain to fire so they do store their own memory.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[omegapoint]

E.D.: Your sifu is sorta right. Muscle Memory deals with the muscles ability to repeat a task at a later date based on a principle called "rebound". In other words if you lift for 2 years, then abruptly quit for a year, but return to lifting weights eventually, your muscles will have a greater range of motion and will experience less lactic acid buildup than a person who has never lifted before. So it's more of a flexibility or range of motion thing, rather than actual memory storage in the protein filaments (actin and myosin) that comprise muscle.

No disrespect to your sifu, but I'm a Western M.D., training in Orthopedic surgery right now, so I know a little about muscles and other structural and support systems of the body. Your Sifu's explanation of a "lipomatous" unit refers to a "fat tumor" (look it up) which has no relation whatsoever to muscle PROTEIN. If we had fat globs running through the cross-bridges of our muscles we wouldn't even be able to move. That's a little beyond this discussion though. Just know that I don't have any reason to BS you. Look up the term muscle memory and research anatomical principles on your own. Then you can make an assumption or evaluation. The body heals about 98 % of injuries and ailments without any help externally, and this is what a lot of Eastern and Western Medicine banks on.

Again, Lipoma=Fat Tumor, and the -matous portion refers to a process or component. Therfore lipomatous=Fat Tumor Component. Hope this helps you and your instructor, later...

Omegapoint, M.D.