Some clips and stuff:)

[sihing]

Hi all,

In the spirit of sharing, just some clips of our training here in Thunder Bay, and what we are up to.

When you want to share with the public you need a label or name, so I called my method Inclusive Ving Tsun, see this video as to why I did this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B049GieJMoc .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n1fq9oKAcw - IVT intro clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJQ_KtbdVEc - IVT Dan Chi sau clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBH8cDs4Uvc - IVT short clip on pushing/controlling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbahbZJkEbU - IVT stepping, slicing, attacking angles

I don't teach Fighting, I teach VT as a development method, the guy/girls are learning to enhance their skill set, their body/arms/legs so they all work together, to produce what VT produces, short powerful inclose striking, controlling skill set while in combat. We do this in a deliberate way, they ppl have to do things slow and easy at first, then as they progress they increase the intensity, with skill challenges put into the drills to make it a more realistic in nature. They don't spar much in class, they do that on their own time, and is what I would call "Application" of the skill set and is up to each individual as to how they want to do this, not necessarily a VT skill set.

Enjoy:)

James

[Wayfaring]

I don't teach Fighting, I teach VT as a development method, the guy/girls are learning to enhance their skill set, their body/arms/legs so they all work together, to produce what VT produces, short powerful inclose striking, controlling skill set while in combat.

To me this is an incongruent statement. The opening phrase is that you don't teach fighting, the last phrase indicates you teach a skill set while in combat. Combat is a synonym for fighting (although one that has a lot of delusional baggage in the WCK world).

Many are comfortable with this incongruence. I am not.

[BPWT]

A clip of my Sifu giving a seminar - focus on partner + pad work.

http://youtu.be/U-h3U4_125I

[k gledhill]

A clip of my Sifu giving a seminar - focus on partner + pad work.

http://youtu.be/U-h3U4_125I

Many errors in this striking work. Can you spot them ?

[k gledhill]

Hi all,

In the spirit of sharing, just some clips of our training here in Thunder Bay, and what we are up to.

When you want to share with the public you need a label or name, so I called my method Inclusive Ving Tsun, see this video as to why I did this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B049GieJMoc .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n1fq9oKAcw - IVT intro clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJQ_KtbdVEc - IVT Dan Chi sau clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBH8cDs4Uvc - IVT short clip on pushing/controlling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbahbZJkEbU - IVT stepping, slicing, attacking angles

I don't teach Fighting, I teach VT as a development method, the guy/girls are learning to enhance their skill set, their body/arms/legs so they all work together, to produce what VT produces, short powerful inclose striking, controlling skill set while in combat. We do this in a deliberate way, they ppl have to do things slow and easy at first, then as they progress they increase the intensity, with skill challenges put into the drills to make it a more realistic in nature. They don't spar much in class, they do that on their own time, and is what I would call "Application" of the skill set and is up to each individual as to how they want to do this, not necessarily a VT skill set.

Enjoy:)

James


I can see a lot of similar work to our way.

[guy b.]

A clip of my Sifu giving a seminar - focus on partner + pad work.

http://youtu.be/U-h3U4_125I

You are joking I think

[BPWT]

Many errors in this striking work. Can you spot them ?

There is not enough face pushing for you?

:D

[BPWT]

You are joking I think

It doesn't feel like a joke, I can tell you that. :rolleyes: Maybe we should incorporate more slappy hands and less power. :D

[guy b.]

If you are serious then thanks for posting a representative clip of what you do. It is not for me, but I wish you luck with it and hope you find what you are looking for

[k gledhill]

There is not enough face pushing for you?

:D

Nice try, but still not addressing the errors.

[sihing]

To me this is an incongruent statement. The opening phrase is that you don't teach fighting, the last phrase indicates you teach a skill set while in combat. Combat is a synonym for fighting (although one that has a lot of delusional baggage in the WCK world).

Many are comfortable with this incongruence. I am not.

I teach a skill set that is indirectly related to application in combat. Like I've said in the past VT is like an Axe Sharpener, the sharpener is not used in the act of chopping the wood, but it makes the tool work better. I know that the act of fighting is much more complex than chopping wood, but one should be able to understand the meaning.

In essence, we shouldn't look to much different than a sort of western boxer, saying that not all boxers look alike either nor do they train or throw strikes the same, but we don't stand in Man/Wu sau waiting for an attack, the person would develop their own sense of a guard, or ready position, if there is even a chance for that on the street, as a lot of attacks in that environment are not like a sparring/comp setting as we all know:)

Guy B explains it well too:)

J

[sihing]

I can see a lot of similar work to our way.

Yes, was and still am greatly influenced by Phillip and his method, great stuff:)

J

[BPWT]

Nice try, but still not addressing the errors.

You should visit him and show him the errors in person, Kevin. I will be more than happy to watch and learn.

[BPWT]

I have never heard of this guy before, is he in Europe?

In Hungary.

[k gledhill]

He seems to be doing a lot of winding up/over-retracting his elbow. Not sure why. Perhaps he is trying to add more power to his strikes(?). Either way, telegraphing with the elbow is what i see in this video. But, maybe this is how his WC is taught/learned? I have never heard of this guy before, is he in Europe?

Yes, shoulder rotation a slt basic error.

[k gledhill]

You should visit him and show him the errors in person, Kevin. I will be more than happy to watch and learn.

I smell sarcasm ; ) it's your nose not mine, as the old wise men say.

[BPWT]

I smell sarcasm ; ) it's your nose not mine, as the old wise men say.

No sarcasm. You should explain it to him in person. Show him.

[Wayfaring]

I teach a skill set that is indirectly related to application in combat. Like I've said in the past VT is like an Axe Sharpener, the sharpener is not used in the act of chopping the wood, but it makes the tool work better. I know that the act of fighting is much more complex than chopping wood, but one should be able to understand the meaning.


I take yoga classes. They increase my flexibility. This also is indirectly related to application in combat. However, that doesn't make yoga a "combat art". And you wouldn't use it for self defense.

Hopefully you should be able to understand my meaning.



In essence, we shouldn't look to much different than a sort of western boxer, saying that not all boxers look alike either nor do they train or throw strikes the same, but we don't stand in Man/Wu sau waiting for an attack, the person would develop their own sense of a guard, or ready position, if there is even a chance for that on the street, as a lot of attacks in that environment are not like a sparring/comp setting as we all know:)


I'm not sure how you look is relevant.



Guy B explains it well too:)


If you think his trolling is explained well, then why don't you two get a room? That way you could have an entire evening of mutual congratulatory BS without even needing to expose yourselves to any feedback outside your closed loop.

[guy b.]

If you think his trolling is explained well, then why don't you two get a room? That way you could have an entire evening of mutual congratulatory BS without even needing to expose yourselves to any feedback outside your closed loop.

If this isn't trolling then I don't know what is

[Wayfaring]

If this isn't trolling then I don't know what is

nah that's a legit question

[guy b.]

nah that's a legit question

You pretty much troll yourself

[Wayfaring]

whatever I'll talk to james if he responds.

[Wayfaring]

No sarcasm. You should explain it to him in person. Show him.

I'll spar with him. with or without sarcasm. ;)

[k gledhill]

No sarcasm. You should explain it to him in person. Show him.

Teach him basic reasons for slt ? Can't you ; )

[sihing]

I take yoga classes. They increase my flexibility. This also is indirectly related to application in combat. However, that doesn't make yoga a "combat art". And you wouldn't use it for self defense.

Hopefully you should be able to understand my meaning.



I'm not sure how you look is relevant.



If you think his trolling is explained well, then why don't you two get a room? That way you could have an entire evening of mutual congratulatory BS without even needing to expose yourselves to any feedback outside your closed loop.

I do Yoga too, the intention of Yoga is not to gain flexibility (side, side side benefit), it is to make possible within the body and mind a transformation, that is what it does (asana's), there is no intention in Yoga to be applied to combat. In VT, in the beginning anyways, one's intention is to learn how the body can best function in combat, but to just fight in training you get real slow skill development, toughness yeah, but injuries too, so what are we doing?

Skill development, what is it? It's how we move, respond, control and awareness of our body mechanics, this is what is leaned in VT. I don't do dan chi sau basic to learn tan sau to block with it, tan sau (firstly) is a spreading strike, lead by the elbow and supported by the hip/knee frame structure, so we do this stationary to get the feel and skill set of that thing, then we do it moving forward (see dan chi vid) and on and on we go, it's all about development, for what, to throw a good spreading strike, which in other words is a strike that is contacted on the outside of my forearm, whether that contact ever happens in a fight is beside the point, the worst case senerio is that contact will happen.

The guy doing fok sau in the drill is doing a cutting strike (inside forearm contact), the rest of the it is the same as above. We do it slow and steady then increase the intensity, eventually we do it random from non contacted positions, like someone reacting to a jab I am throwing, without the previous training from above, once the contact is made they won't respond with everything in place, the skill set development.

With everything in place (skill set) one is first moving efficiently and with frame structure (power/balance/recovery) behind it as backup. Without it developed these things are not in place and effectiveness is lessened in what we want to do, and that is strike in close.

After its all developed Yes they take it out for a test drive in sparring or other realistic type drilling, neither of which are for real fighting, just more realism as close as one can get while still calling it training.

J

[Wayfaring]

I do Yoga too, the intention of Yoga is not to gain flexibility (side, side side benefit), it is to make possible within the body and mind a transformation, that is what it does (asana's), there is no intention in Yoga to be applied to combat. In VT, in the beginning anyways, one's intention is to learn how the body can best function in combat, but to just fight in training you get real slow skill development, toughness yeah, but injuries too, so what are we doing?


Agreed on yoga. I'm trying to get at the difference in training approach and philosophy (and your marketing how you portray yourself) between a tangential endeavor that can develop attributes helpful in fighting, and an art supposedly designed directly for fighting.

Also agreed on untrained individuals throwing them in a cage and saying "fight - figure it out" is not a good approach and will produce the detrimental effects you state. In fact, in every city I've lived in there has been at least one MMA school with exactly that reputation. Their students have astronomical burn-out rates and attrition.

What are we doing? Trying to find the unique blend of teaching, drilling, and sparring that will allow for the quickest development of the fighting skills of our student or ourselves if we're not teaching. IMO.



Skill development, what is it? It's how we move, respond, control and awareness of our body mechanics, this is what is leaned in VT. I don't do dan chi sau basic to learn tan sau to block with it, tan sau (firstly) is a spreading strike, lead by the elbow and supported by the hip/knee frame structure, so we do this stationary to get the feel and skill set of that thing, then we do it moving forward (see dan chi vid) and on and on we go, it's all about development, for what, to throw a good spreading strike, which in other words is a strike that is contacted on the outside of my forearm, whether that contact ever happens in a fight is beside the point, the worst case senerio is that contact will happen.


I get that drills are important. Both compliant isolated drills as well as live movement drills. I don't have issue with your specifics either - I looked at your clips and they look fundamentally sound.



The guy doing fok sau in the drill is doing a cutting strike (inside forearm contact), the rest of the it is the same as above. We do it slow and steady then increase the intensity, eventually we do it random from non contacted positions, like someone reacting to a jab I am throwing, without the previous training from above, once the contact is made they won't respond with everything in place, the skill set development.


The thought-through method of introducing live movement into a static drill like this - from non contacted positions, to a "semi-live" environment is good.



With everything in place (skill set) one is first moving efficiently and with frame structure (power/balance/recovery) behind it as backup. Without it developed these things are not in place and effectiveness is lessened in what we want to do, and that is strike in close.


The danger with introducing too late both contact (punching/getting punched) and free movement where someone has to think for themselves what to do, choose options, etc. is that the fluidity of their movement becomes severely stunted. They tend to only move in short unconnected patterns of pre-scripted movement.



After its all developed Yes they take it out for a test drive in sparring or other realistic type drilling, neither of which are for real fighting, just more realism as close as one can get while still calling it training.


Its the "after its all developed" part is what I think we can do a lot better on in WCK. It takes a LONG TIME to learn unrestricted movement competent fighting, and to learn to be comfortable with getting hit. If you start 5 years into someone's development training this consistently, then it's likely they will never learn this. I mean Brock Lesnar had a UFC career never learning this - and that's why he had to retire and go back to the WWE.

My preference is to train light sparring from early on. Teach students to move freely, to think, to experiment, to try things out. Tell them it's experimental learning to train the body to flow. Many people think chi sau is supposed to do this kind of thing. It can do some of this in a limited fashion, but it still is compliant and only semi-live. Starting from no contact is completely live.

All in all, despite you marketing yourself doing something different, when looking at the detail you are doing a lot closer to what I am talking about than most.

[BPWT]

Teach him basic reasons for slt ? Can't you ; )

SNT has specific methods for getting power into strikes, CK offers some more, BT offers yet more. The Wooden Dummy allows you to implement them all, but offers some differences in 'how'; the weapons offer something else regarding power (and in relation to empty hand work).

We've talked about it before, you and I, but the BT form has a very different take on things when compared to what SNT gives you. Many things, but for me (where I am now in my training) a very particular use of the spine to get power.

If you know how we do these forms, and you look at this seminar clip I posted, you will see that Maday Norbert is employing many different methods here to generate power. So yes, they are not all from SNT, and don't all originate from the positions in SNT... and there is good reason for that.

Kevin, do you generate power in your BT form the same way you do in SNT? Just looking at the simple body movement differences, this cannot be the case.

I admit that because of the stance and stepping in the WSL method, perhaps power usage and striking usage is different when shifting weight. But still...

[wingchunIan]

Many errors in this striking work. Can you spot them ?

Regardless of my thoughts on the clip in question, this patronising and obtuse approach to posting is why most of the threads end up in flame wars and is totally unecessary:(. If you feel that there are errors in the clip according to your POV (and I am not syaing that there aren't from my own POV) simply come out and say what you think they are which would then allow intelligent adult debate. Posting in the way you did suggests that either you are trying to criticise for the sake of it without actually having anything to support your critique, or that you are trying to encourage others to do the criticism for you. Either way it doesn't reflect well. Just say what you think is wrong in the clip instead of trying to be a smartarse:rolleyes:

[wingchunIan]

BPWT. Is there a reason why the punches in the clip seem almost exclusively thrown with the same arm repetitively rather than cycling? Was this something specific that was being taught?
I have no doubt that the man in the clip can hit hard but from a perspective of debate I would argue that there doesn't appear to be as much penetration in the shots he throws as there could be and that many of the shots especially the upper cut type shots thrown lack body alignment and appear to have very little support from the hip / floor.
Interesting bit of kit everyone in the video is wearing, looks almost like a wall bag hung around their neck, not seen a chest protector like that before.

[BPWT]

BPWT. Is there a reason why the punches in the clip seem almost exclusively thrown with the same arm repetitively rather than cycling? Was this something specific that was being taught? I have no doubt that the man in the clip can hit hard but from a perspective of debate I would argue that there doesn't appear to be as much penetration in the shots he throws as there could be and that many of the shots especially the upper cut type shots thrown lack body alignment and appear to have very little support from the hip / floor.

Interesting bit of kit everyone in the video is wearing, looks almost like a wall bag hung around their neck, not seen a chest protector like that before.

This was a seminar from a few years back, and was in Poland - rather than in Hungary. So I didn't attend this particular one.

Many of the strikes are thrown with the same arm, just to give emphasis on working the hitting into the target. No tactical reason, for example, just a method to 'rinse and repeat'. :)

Yes, he can indeed hit hard - and, as always, you have to feel them to really know. Even wearing the protection it hurts and can make you feel like your insides are about to appear on your outside :D.

In terms of support for the punch/strike, it varies. And the clip is long and with lots of variations. Some of the hits make use of the weighting we use in the legs, some make use of the inward knee force as the weighting changes (which is really hard to see in person, let alone on a video at distance); some are about rotation of the upper body/torso, and have a connection to CK, but more often to our BT; some are about a heavier use of the spine (twisting), and sometimes an up-and-down movement of the spine/back (hard to explain but easy to show if you place a hand on someone's back so you can feel what is happening); sometimes the strike's power is very localized - let's say fingers to shoulder - the whole body is actually used, but the emphasis is more on certain joints.

This is a didactic method in general, as well as a way to get people hitting the pads with force.

Some strikes come from angles that are more likely to occur once you've already struck and the opponent has moved/been forced in a certain direction due to a hit. These are not always trained in a sequence, as you noticed, but as an isolated hitting drill. To understand that clearer, you'd have to see a video of the whole seminar, from start to finish, so you see what was being taught and explained at the beginning. (but I don't have the whole video - and besides it would be hours and hours as the seminars are typically 3-4 hours one evening, and then 7-8 hours the following day. Grueling.)

Some of the above points about power can be seen if you look at the downward elbow strikes. These are tricky to get power in - but if you know how can have tremendous power. In reality, the force is aided by the fact that we only tend to use them once the opponent has had their balance affected - but in the video you just see the isolated drill.

Yeah, the chest protectors are unusual. Used in the EEWTO (Eastern Europe Wing Tsun Organization) and used in Hong Kong too (Leung Ting Wing Tsun schools). They tie up around the back and around the neck. Weekly, they save sternum from being cracked :D They are madly useful, especially when working strikes using the nail punch (phoenix eye).

Actually, various strikes in the video clip would use this nail punch - which again is something in our BT form - and again, often uses a slightly different way of hitting (path of the strike, for example, the angle and the use of the wrist).

Ps. And as a friendly dig at Kevin... these 10-12 hour seminars (the last one I attended was on Wooden Dummy work) are typically $50-55 for the two days... including lunch. So not the $200 some people charge for one day. :-)

[k gledhill]

Regardless of my thoughts on the clip in question, this patronising and obtuse approach to posting is why most of the threads end up in flame wars and is totally unecessary:(. If you feel that there are errors in the clip according to your POV (and I am not syaing that there aren't from my own POV) simply come out and say what you think they are which would then allow intelligent adult debate. Posting in the way you did suggests that either you are trying to criticise for the sake of it without actually having anything to support your critique, or that you are trying to encourage others to do the criticism for you. Either way it doesn't reflect well. Just say what you think is wrong in the clip instead of trying to be a smartarse:rolleyes:

It makes people think for themselves when asked. If I list errors it enlightens twats like yourself.

[k gledhill]

SNT has specific methods for getting power into strikes, CK offers some more, BT offers yet more. The Wooden Dummy allows you to implement them all, but offers some differences in 'how'; the weapons offer something else regarding power (and in relation to empty hand work).

We've talked about it before, you and I, but the BT form has a very different take on things when compared to what SNT gives you. Many things, but for me (where I am now in my training) a very particular use of the spine to get power.

If you know how we do these forms, and you look at this seminar clip I posted, you will see that Maday Norbert is employing many different methods here to generate power. So yes, they are not all from SNT, and don't all originate from the positions in SNT... and there is good reason for that.

Kevin, do you generate power in your BT form the same way you do in SNT? Just looking at the simple body movement differences, this cannot be the case.

I admit that because of the stance and stepping in the WSL method, perhaps power usage and striking usage is different when shifting weight. But still...


Bil gee spine ? Really ? That's what they have you believing. Look there are simple basics for power generation and basics for avoiding committing errors in doing so. Very simple. If you are trying to tell us that bg is a " special " place for special spine power ....I can't help you.

[BPWT]

Bil gee spine ? Really ? That's what they have you believing. Look there are simple basics for power generation and basics for avoiding committing errors in doing so. Very simple. If you are trying to tell us that bg is a " special " place for special spine power ....I can't help you.

Not a special place - though I am not sure what you mean by that, actually. When you do the BT form, do you not use torque from the twisting? What part of your body is twisting, and how does it aid in getting power out?

If you are not creating torque - fair enough. Maybe your BT really does simply use the same power methods you use in SNT. If you are twisting/rotating the torso... this should create a different effect when you strike.

It isn't complicated. But there are training methods that take advantage of this, to give the power you create in your strikes (in BT) a different flavor.

No one has me believing anything, Kevin. There's no blind faith here. But when you get hit by a straight punch and then get hit with a strike that has a slightly different engine behind it (i.e. using the methods found in the BT form), you can feel the difference.

It has a different quality to it. Nothing mystical, nothing that requires a PhD to understand. Anyone can feel the difference in quality, and understand why it feels different.

I seems to me that the simple basics you mention are what we all have in our WT/VT/WC, and this is what you are talking about. But the forms (including the Dummy form) are not these simple basics repeated. At least, not repeated exclusively.

If you use the same power methods in all your forms and those are the only ones you have, great. What I find strange is that you are so closed minded as to think that only those exist. :rolleyes:

VT-light? :D:D:D

[k gledhill]

Not a special place - though I am not sure what you mean by that, actually. When you do the BT form, do you not use torque from the twisting? What part of your body is twisting, and how does it aid in getting power out?

If you are not creating torque - fair enough. Maybe your BT really does simply use the same power methods you use in SNT. If you are twisting/rotating the torso... this should create a different effect when you strike.

It isn't complicated. But there are training methods that take advantage of this, to give the power you create in your strikes (in BT) a different flavor.

No one has me believing anything, Kevin. There's no blind faith here. But when you get hit by a straight punch and then get hit with a strike that has a slightly different engine behind it (i.e. using the methods found in the BT form), you can feel the difference.

It has a different quality to it. Nothing mystical, nothing that requires a PhD to understand. Anyone can feel the difference in quality, and understand why it feels different.

I seems to me that the simple basics you mention are what we all have in our WT/VT/WC, and this is what you are talking about. But the forms (including the Dummy form) are not these simple basics repeated. At least, not repeated exclusively.

If you use the same power methods in all your forms and those are the only ones you have, great. What I find strange is that you are so closed minded as to think that only those exist. :rolleyes:

VT-light? :D:D:D

I can say the opposite of you perhaps being so gullible to believe the ... Subjective interpretations of vt's abstract canvas.

[wingchunIan]

It makes people think for themselves when asked. If I list errors it enlightens twats like yourself.

Oh no Kevin called me a twat, what will I do..... Oh I know I'll treat it with the contempt it deserves. Get over yourself you couldn't enlighten a dark room with a floodlight

[guy b.]

I can understand Kev's reluctance to share every secret. There is an offputting atmosphere of hostility coupled with demand for information from many people. I guess he probably feels anything substantial he does disclose is likely to be used against him in future.

[k gledhill]

Oh no Kevin called me a twat, what will I do..... Oh I know I'll treat it with the contempt it deserves. Get over yourself you couldn't enlighten a dark room with a floodlight

Oh no ! Wing chun Ian responded negatively. Where's my handbag ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pe0rNieL-Q&sns=em

:)))

Notice the way they deal with hooking bag entry ; )

[wingchunIan]

I can understand Kev's reluctance to share every secret. There is an offputting atmosphere of hostility coupled with demand for information from many people. I guess he probably feels anything substantial he does disclose is likely to be used against him in future.
Used against him how exactly?

[wingchunIan]

Oh no ! Wing chun Ian responded negatively. Where's my handbag ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pe0rNieL-Q&sns=em

:)))

Notice the way they deal with hooking bag entry ; )

Nice to see after all this time you finally admit to having a handbag :p

[anerlich]

I can understand Kev's reluctance to share every secret. There is an offputting atmosphere of hostility coupled with demand for information from many people. I guess he probably feels anything substantial he does disclose is likely to be used against him in future.

All Kevin shares is 10,000,000 clips of Phil Bayer chi sao and the chip on the shoulder.

It's not "demands for information". It's demands for extraordinary proof of extraordinary claims. Still waiting.

[guy b.]

It's demands for extraordinary proof of extraordinary claims. Still waiting.

Tell that to Wayfaring and the other closet wing chun haters. Why are they even here? Lol

Easy to criticise, hard to stand for something

[guy b.]

All Kevin shares is 10,000,000 clips of Phil Bayer chi sao and the chip on the shoulder.

I find Kev's explanations pretty clear personally. I'm surprised he goes into so much detail on this ship of fools

[guy b.]

Used against him how exactly?

a) assimilate useful info into your deficient wing chun

b) attack the messenger by creating a parody of what he said (which you are secretly grateful for). Happens all the time here.

[wingchunIan]

a) assimilate useful info into your deficient wing chun

b) attack the messenger by creating a parody of what he said (which you are secretly grateful for). Happens all the time here.

If you presume everyone apart from Kevin has deficient Wing Chun then you truly are deluded, if your allegation is aimed at me personally then you have no need to fear, I'm happy that the quality of my Wing Chun would bear scrutiny alongside anything that Kevin can offer and if I was going to assimilate anything it would first have to be useful. I am very proud to say that I seek knowledge everywhere that I can and whenever the opportunity to recieve input from a high level practitioner arises I take it regardless of lineage but Kevin isn't on that list, although his sifu would be if the opportunity arises.
How that would be something being used against him I still don't know.
As for mocking what has been presented, that is a two way street - as you sow so shall you reap etc. I personally tend to try to keep my comments restricted to presenting POVs and asking questions to better understand the other person's POV unfortunately others seem to be unable to do the same.

[Graham H]

I find Kev's explanations pretty clear personally. I'm surprised he goes into so much detail on this ship of fools

Amen! :cool:

As long as that ship of fools keeps sailing in the opposite direction to me I'm happy! :D

It seems that the likes of Ian et al have the rudder full right and the engines on maximum! They like to go around and around in circles not really getting anywhere..........pretty much like their Tan Saus :D:D:D

[tc101]

Amen! :cool:

As long as that ship of fools keeps sailing in the opposite direction to me I'm happy! :D

It seems that the likes of Ian et al have the rudder full right and the engines on maximum! They like to go around and around in circles not really getting anywhere..........pretty much like their Tan Saus :D:D:D

What I have learned so far:

1) everyone is lost and confused except for the Bayer bunch

2) anyone who disagrees is a fool or a wing chun hater

3) the proof of this superiority is found in numerous almost identical video clips of the bong lop drill performed by Bayer or his followers

4) it is important not to spar or train with good sport fighters since you will not fight one on the street

5) if you do get into a streetfight against someone who is trained you can poke them in the eye or kick them in groin or punch their throat and they are defenseless against such things

6) refer back to #1

Have I missed anything?

[Graham H]

What I have learned so far:

1) everyone is lost and confused except for the Bayer bunch

With regards to this forum......yes!


2) anyone who disagrees is a fool or a wing chun hater

No not at all but nobody else has anything apart from video footage to judge on. In other words they know F all!



3) the proof of this superiority is found in numerous almost identical video clips of the bong lop drill performed by Bayer or his followers

True. There are numerous clips of pretty much the same thing taking place in a seminar environment within different schools all over Europe. You think that is all that goes on! There is no footage of pole sparring, knife sparring or open hand sparring or any verbal explanation by PB of anything remotely instructional. That must mean it doesn't happen :rolleyes:

Of course in order to prove this to most of you dullards, what do you ask for?????? video proof. Very sad.


4) it is important not to spar or train with good sport fighters since you will not fight one on the street

There is a lot of sparring that goes on against other fighting systems. It's not on YouTube so it mustn't happen eh?:rolleyes:


5) if you do get into a streetfight against someone who is trained you can poke them in the eye or kick them in groin or punch their throat and they are defenseless against such things

How can you know until the street fight is over??? :confused:


6) refer back to #1

You may want to do the same.


Have I missed anything?

YES! F***ing everything...................as usual!

I'm off to Spain in a minute for 10 days training camp to partake in all these things that never happen. basically we are just going to make Lap Sau for a week and do things that don't work well in an MMA octagon! :D:D:D:D:D

Toodle pip x

[k gledhill]

With regards to this forum......yes!



No not at all but nobody else has anything apart from video footage to judge on. In other words they know F all!



True. There are numerous clips of pretty much the same thing taking place in a seminar environment within different schools all over Europe. You think that is all that goes on! There is no footage of pole sparring, knife sparring or open hand sparring or any verbal explanation by PB of anything remotely instructional. That must mean it doesn't happen :rolleyes:

Of course in order to prove this to most of you dullards, what do you ask for?????? video proof. Very sad.



There is a lot of sparring that goes on against other fighting systems. It's not on YouTube so it mustn't happen eh?:rolleyes:



How can you know until the street fight is over??? :confused:



You may want to do the same.



YES! F***ing everything...................as usual!

I'm off to Spain in a minute for 10 days training camp to partake in all these things that never happen. basically we are just going to make Lap Sau for a week and do things that don't work well in an MMA octagon! :D:D:D:D:D

Toodle pip x

Lucky sob !

[wingchunIan]

What I have learned so far:

1) everyone is lost and confused except for the Bayer bunch

2) anyone who disagrees is a fool or a wing chun hater

3) the proof of this superiority is found in numerous almost identical video clips of the bong lop drill performed by Bayer or his followers

4) it is important not to spar or train with good sport fighters since you will not fight one on the street

5) if you do get into a streetfight against someone who is trained you can poke them in the eye or kick them in groin or punch their throat and they are defenseless against such things

6) refer back to #1

Have I missed anything?

LOL, I fail to see why the individuals in question bother to visit this forum when they have no interest in anything that anyone else has to say and aren't interested in adult dialogue

[tc101]

True. There are numerous clips of pretty much the same thing taking place in a seminar environment within different schools all over Europe. You think that is all that goes on! There is no footage of pole sparring, knife sparring or open hand sparring or any verbal explanation by PB of anything remotely instructional. That must mean it doesn't happen :rolleyes:


I am not saying that I think that is all that goes on or that if it isn't on video it doesn't happen. That isn't an inference from what I said so I don't know why you would think that let alone roll your eyes. I said that the Bayer groups repeatedly claims superiority and only provides as evidence to support that superiority numerous videos showing pretty much the same bong lop drill. You seem to agree with that.

Would you not also agree that showing numerous videos of the same drill is poor evidence of a claim of superiority?

So what we are left with is a claim of superiority and no good evidence to support it, agreed?



Of course in order to prove this to most of you dullards, what do you ask for?????? video proof. Very sad.


If someone makes a claim of superiority what evidence do you suggest I ask for? And please don't suggest that I go see for myself since if this is the case I would then need to travel around the world to check out anything and everything that I have a question about. What is wrong with video proof? Your bunch does not seem to be video impaired judging by the number of videos uploaded.



There is a lot of sparring that goes on against other fighting systems. It's not on YouTube so it mustn't happen eh?:rolleyes:


You like to roll your eyes a lot. You might consider that some of us are rolling our eyes when we hear that a lot of sparring goes on against other fighting systems but none of it is videotaped and none of it is uploaded to youtube especially when your bunch is so concerned with claiming your superiority and then uploading lots of videos of the bong lop drill. The question is why would a group that so wants to prove its superiority and is so vocal about that would not upload evidence of it beating other fighting systems in sparring to provide evidence to us dullards if it really exists.



How can you know until the street fight is over??? :confused:


You can take the position that you won't truly know who will win a fight or what will work until the fight is over but I think that we can say and often do say what is very likely to be the outcome. By sparring you can pretty much see what sorts of things are high percentage and what things aren't, what sorts of things you can pull off and what you likely can't. Exceptions can happen but smart people play the percentages.

Have a great trip to Spain!

[Graham H]

LOL, I fail to see why the individuals in question bother to visit this forum when they have no interest in anything that anyone else has to say and aren't interested in adult dialogue

You aint no different to anybody else on here mate!

[Graham H]

I am not saying that I think that is all that goes on or that if it isn't on video it doesn't happen. That isn't an inference from what I said so I don't know why you would think that let alone roll your eyes. I said that the Bayer groups repeatedly claims superiority and only provides as evidence to support that superiority numerous videos showing pretty much the same bong lop drill. You seem to agree with that.

I do and if any of us that made the change from our old lineages to PB didn't think it was superior then why would we bother. We are not all orphans looking for a father! lmao


Would you not also agree that showing numerous videos of the same drill is poor evidence of a claim of superiority?

Like I said before...if you want to know more you must go like I did. Videos should be taken in the context they are posted. As far as I aware PB isn't trying to prove anything. We are having fun with our training whilst sharing time with some like minded good people. Nay bother. :)


So what we are left with is a claim of superiority and no good evidence to support it, agreed?

I can't actually remember saying I'm superior. I don't think Kev has either. It may come across that way but how would you react if you found clarity in this f***ed up world of Wing Chun???????:cool:


If someone makes a claim of superiority what evidence do you suggest I ask for? And please don't suggest that I go see for myself since if this is the case I would then need to travel around the world to check out anything and everything that I have a question about. What is wrong with video proof? Your bunch does not seem to be video impaired judging by the number of videos uploaded.

Whatever.


You like to roll your eyes a lot. You might consider that some of us are rolling our eyes when we hear that a lot of sparring goes on against other fighting systems but none of it is videotaped and none of it is uploaded to youtube especially when your bunch is so concerned with claiming your superiority and then uploading lots of videos of the bong lop drill. The question is why would a group that so wants to prove its superiority and is so vocal about that would not upload evidence of it beating other fighting systems in sparring to provide evidence to us dullards if it really exists.

:rolleyes::)


You can take the position that you won't truly know who will win a fight or what will work until the fight is over but I think that we can say and often do say what is very likely to be the outcome. By sparring you can pretty much see what sorts of things are high percentage and what things aren't, what sorts of things you can pull off and what you likely can't. Exceptions can happen but smart people play the percentages.

Yes I spar a lot and know my limits. That's enough for me mate.


Have a great trip to Spain!

Thank you.

[Wayfaring]

What I have learned so far:

1) everyone is lost and confused except for the Bayer bunch

2) anyone who disagrees is a fool or a wing chun hater

3) the proof of this superiority is found in numerous almost identical video clips of the bong lop drill performed by Bayer or his followers

4) it is important not to spar or train with good sport fighters since you will not fight one on the street

5) if you do get into a streetfight against someone who is trained you can poke them in the eye or kick them in groin or punch their throat and they are defenseless against such things

6) refer back to #1

Have I missed anything?

And the trolls think people don't have reading comprehension skills.

Pretty good outline.

[Wayfaring]

True. There are numerous clips of pretty much the same thing taking place in a seminar environment within different schools all over Europe. You think that is all that goes on! There is no footage of pole sparring, knife sparring or open hand sparring or any verbal explanation by PB of anything remotely instructional. That must mean it doesn't happen :rolleyes:


And of course, there is no explanation of training methods you guys do of pole sparring, knife sparring, open hand sparring, etc.....

Just some arrogant offhand comments down your nose, and a lot of trolling.

That doesn't come into play at all. :rolleyes:

[guy b.]

And of course, there is no explanation of training methods you guys do of pole sparring, knife sparring, open hand sparring, etc.....

Just some arrogant offhand comments down your nose, and a lot of trolling.

That doesn't come into play at all. :rolleyes:

Sounds a bit like your grappling troll angle matey

[sihing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOSeya04QSs


Pak sau drilling...

James

[guy b.]

I If someone makes a claim of superiority what evidence do you suggest I ask for? And please don't suggest that I go see for myself since if this is the case I would then need to travel around the world to check out anything and everything that I have a question about. What is wrong with video proof?

Tell that to whichever anti wing chun troll ID you happen to share. Any clips posted of wing chun are immediately dismissed because the contact level isn't deemed to be hard enough, the movement isn't "alive" enough, or whatever. But when asked to provide clips of wing chun you guys do approve of, the silence is deafening. The same argument applies of course.

When clips from the couple of guys you do approve of appear they are lauded with compliments despite the fact that contact level is often low or zero, wing chun basics are often lacking, and to be honest they usually look like 99% of other wing chun clips on youtube. The bias and hypocrisy is unmissable.

I think this is why groups like the PB guys that are happy and confident in what they do just find it funny more than anything.

[Wayfaring]

Tell that to whichever anti wing chun troll ID you happen to share. Any clips posted of wing chun are immediately dismissed because the contact level isn't deemed to be hard enough, the movement isn't "alive" enough, or whatever. But when asked to provide clips of wing chun you guys do approve of, the silence is deafening. The same argument applies of course.


If you look at the criticism, it makes sense. It's not that there's this large group of hypocrites running around the internet looking to not like wing chun clips. It is the case that the vast majority of wing chun videos available in public are either of someone doing a form or of someone doing chi sau trying to look tough. Or worse. And that absolutely includes the PB videos. When the aliveness factor goes up and the contact level goes up and someone posts a video of it, then the tea-sipping purists say "that's not wing chun". So you're screwed either way.

It's like the vast majority of WCK practitioners want to paint themselves into a corner where all they train is limited chi sau with "nice movement". that's all they want to look at, that's all they want to discuss. They also seem to want to point out that "is not the way we train all the time". So apparently there's this large shared secret underground training that looks more like fighting that WCK practitioners do as well, they just aren't allowed to post it on the internet or it would violate their WCK code.

To me that in general points to the fact that wing chun is in a pretty sad state of affairs overall. It seems to be gravitating towards a market niche of selling delusion to wannabes rather than training people in a direct fighting art.



When clips from the couple of guys you do approve of appear they are lauded with compliments despite the fact that contact level is often low or zero, wing chun basics are often lacking, and to be honest they usually look like 99% of other wing chun clips on youtube. The bias and hypocrisy is unmissable.


The better clips are the ones that are explaining and illustrating WCK concepts regardless of the level of aliveness. As there doesn't seem to be a lot available out there that contains aliveness.



I think this is why groups like the PB guys that are happy and confident in what they do just find it funny more than anything.

I'm sure there are groups of people all over that train within their little circles, never go live, and high five each other about how effective they are. No need to pick on PB guys. In fact, from the evidence I see that would probably be the norm for most WCK practitioners, not the exception. Happy and confident in what you do really has nothing to do with the effectiveness of fighting skills you are developing. And most closed-loop feedback groups will find anything outside their norm funny.

I mean you also have groups that dress up in makeshift armor and have bouts at renaissance festivals all over the world. They are happy and confident in what they do. Their armor isn't 10% of the quality that they used in medieval times even.

Like them, most WCK practitioners are LARPers, not fighters.

[BPWT]

Like them, most WCK practitioners are LARPers, not fighters.

Awesome. Epic. (and every movement you see is actually a punching concept)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjj3b1mcjpE

[guy b.]

If you look at the criticism, it makes sense.

Then apply it to yourself. Where are your clips of wing chun done the way you would like?


It's like the vast majority of WCK practitioners want to paint themselves into a corner where all they train is limited chi sau with "nice movement". that's all they want to look at, that's all they want to discuss.

PVT clips I posted are not chi sau


The better clips are the ones that are explaining and illustrating WCK concepts regardless of the level of aliveness.

Both PVT and Bayer clips posted on the forum generally illustrate wing chun concepts very clearly


I'm sure there are groups of people all over that train within their little circles, never go live, and high five each other about how effective they are

There is plenty of live training in the clips recently posted. Training can be live regardless of contact level.


Like them, most WCK practitioners are LARPers, not fighters.

What are you wittering on about? Maybe you should show everyone how wing chun should be done?

[Wayfaring]

PVT clips I posted are not chi sau

No, they are the "and worse" category. Holding someone's face and dancing across the floor most people would not consider as chi sau. Or fighting. Or anything besides for saying WTF is that guy doing.



Both PVT and Bayer clips posted on the forum generally illustrate wing chun concepts very clearly

Actually those are among the worst for illustrating wing chun concepts. Mostly it's just someone doing live clips of their chi sau with zero explanation or illustration. Then the golf claps from the audience here.



There is plenty of live training in the clips recently posted. Training can be live regardless of contact level.


This is why I brought up LARPING. That's what you are doing. Cluelessly labeling what you do as the same as people who are training for fighting. No, the face dance is not "live".

[guy b.]

No, they are the "and worse" category. Holding someone's face and dancing across the floor most people would not consider as chi sau. Or fighting. Or anything besides for saying WTF is that guy doing.

I can only laugh as you continue to expose your ignorance


Actually those are among the worst for illustrating wing chun concepts. Mostly it's just someone doing live clips of their chi sau with zero explanation or illustration. Then the golf claps from the audience here.

Lol, the concepts are writ large


This is why I brought up LARPING. That's what you are doing. Cluelessly labeling what you do as the same as people who are training for fighting. No, the face dance is not "live".

The PVT clips are alive because neither party knows what the other is going to do, i.e. they are not drilling. This is the definition of alive according to the type of moron that uses this as a criterion to criticise traditional martial arts. he vast majority of Chinese arts have alive training. The thing you don't like is the contact level. But there is a good reason for this that I can only assume you don't understand.

[guy b.]

If you look at the criticism, it makes sense

Then apply it to yourself. Where are your clips of wing chun done the way you would like, coward?

[guy b.]

This is why I brought up LARPING. That's what you are doing. Cluelessly labeling what you do as the same as people who are training for fighting. No, the face dance is not "live".

I don't know what you are tanking about with this acronym, LARPING. Please don't explain because it sounds hopelessly gay. Just understand that it means nothing to me.

[Wayfaring]

I don't know what you are tanking about with this acronym, LARPING. Please don't explain because it sounds hopelessly gay. Just understand that it means nothing to me.

I know. When you're living a lifestyle, you're too close to it to see it.

[Wayfaring]

The PVT clips are alive because neither party knows what the other is going to do, i.e. they are not drilling.

Completely wrong. It's not whether you know what your opponent is going to do or not that makes a drill "alive". It's the degree to which your opponent's movement is unrestricted by pre-set scenarios. The face dance stuff has scripted movement on both sides. Whether "scripted movement A" is used or "scripted movement B" does not make it alive.

[guy b.]

Completely wrong. It's not whether you know what your opponent is going to do or not that makes a drill "alive". It's the degree to which your opponent's movement is unrestricted by pre-set scenarios. The face dance stuff has scripted movement on both sides. Whether "scripted movement A" is used or "scripted movement B" does not make it alive.

All real martial arts start within limited scenarios and work outwards towards unrestricted movement.

You would call guard passing in bjj alive, but it isn't according to the above argument because people don't generally meet lying on the ground with one between the legs of the other in real life. If they do then punching and gouging as well as grappling is likely to ensue.

You would call boxing sparring alive, but the movements allowed are very highly restricted and stylised. There are no kicks or leg techniques. There are no knees and elbows. There is no standing grappling.

The PVT clips I posted are no less alive than this. The free movement is free with respect to the conventions of wing chun. You are simply biased against wing chun for some reason.

[GlennR]

You would call boxing sparring alive, but the movements allowed are very highly restricted and stylised. There are no kicks or leg techniques. There are no knees and elbows. There is no standing grappling.

Boxing sparring is alive. Sparring completely replicates the fight apart from the power of blows, though hard sparring amongst pro's is close to the same power.

The sparring takes into account exactly what the oponent is going to do. There is no limitation within the confines of the rules


The PVT clips I posted are no less alive than this. The free movement is free with respect to the conventions of wing chun. You are simply biased against wing chun for some reason.

What a load of absolute rubbish.

Its a self defense system that is supposes to be able to handle all situations.

How is squaring of doing lap sao drills even close to achieving the above????

Its a drill, thats it

[guy b.]

What a load of absolute rubbish.

Its a self defense system that is supposes to be able to handle all situations.

Bjj is a self defence system that is supposed to be able to handle all situations as well but alive drilling and sparring in bjj severely limits the available techniques and tightly controls technique and strategy via certain basic principles evforced through the rule set. Only once proficiency in technique and internalisatisation of priciple has been achieved does the person learning bjj branch out into dealing with different situations and styles.

Boxing does this too but doesn't claim to be a self defence system.

What the pvt clips show is wing chun sparring with a ruleset that reinforces the basic wing chun principles. This is something all good principle based MA do, including bjj and boxing.


How is squaring of doing lap sao drills even close to achieving the above????

Its a drill, thats it

You think the pvt clips only show lap sau drills?

[Wayfaring]

The PVT clips I posted are no less alive than this. The free movement is free with respect to the conventions of wing chun. You are simply biased against wing chun for some reason.

Well I am biased against bad wing chun. I never learned in the conventions of wing chun the holding the face and dancing across the floor stuff. But I can see how training in that would help you prepare for the little old aunties at family reunions.

[guy b.]

Well I am biased against bad wing chun

Then show some good wing chun


I never learned in the conventions of wing chun

This is pretty obvious

[Wayfaring]

Bjj is a self defence system that is supposed to be able to handle all situations as well but alive drilling and sparring in bjj severely limits the available techniques and tightly controls technique and strategy via certain basic principles evforced through the rule set. Only once proficiency in technique and internalisatisation of priciple has been achieved does the person learning bjj branch out into dealing with different situations and styles.


Hahahahahaha. So basically you've been to two white belt classes where they don't let you spar.

[guy b.]

Hahahahahaha. So basically you've been to two white belt classes where they don't let you spar.

Viable techniques in sparring are dictated by the principles of bjj which are regulated by the rule set.

[anerlich]

Viable techniques in sparring are dictated by the principles of bjj which are regulated by the rule set.

BJJ was around a long time before anyone decided on a rule set, let alone the current IBJJF rules. you are confusing the tail and the dog.

Vale tudo was the flip side of the BJJ coin in Brazil. Not much of a ruleset there to constrain anybody.

Unlike arts like WC, BJJ is always borrowing from other grappling arts like wrestling, sambo, etc. plus there is continuing creativity expanding the art, some more recent examples being rubber guard and 50/50.

Viable training techniques vary from gym to gym, depending on its emphases (sportive, self defense, ...) and have more to do with safety so you can apply techniques all out but still train tomorrow, than adherence to rule sets.

Many of the more mature black belts outside Brazil held black belts in multiple TMA's and are well versed with striking, other BJJ-illegal techniques, etc. Of the two most influentual BJJ guys in my career, one has instructor grades in karate, stav, MT and arnis, the other in silat. One teaches defensive tactics to police and defence forces, which have elements of BJJ involved but have nothing at all to do with the IBJJF rules..

To suggest their practice or teaching is "regulated by the [BJJ] rule set" is to defy reality.

0.7

[anerlich]

You think the pvt clips only show lap sau drills?

No, there's a ton of vids of PB beating on hapless students in competitive chi sao as well.

Your vids of PB? Haven't seen 'em. Got sick of seeing PB's face after Kevin posted his 10000th PBWSLVT chi sao vid. Don't hate the vids or the person, he isn't ugly or anything, just the sheer volume.

[Jansingsang]

Just think a little reflection is needed to lighten the mood Me ole chunners :D

http://youtu.be/wx_Teck2B3o

[guy b.]

BJJ was around a long time before anyone decided on a rule set, let alone the current IBJJF rules. you are confusing the tail and the dog.

Vale tudo was the flip side of the BJJ coin in Brazil. Not much of a ruleset there to constrain anybody.

When bjj was much smaller the principles could be enforced effectively in person. It is now too large for this, but the ruleset is based on the original principles still. Are you genuinely denying that the direction of evolution is defined strongly by the competition rules, and that these rules have shaped the character of bjj as it exists today?

Try this thought experiment: bjj rules change tomorrow. Throws onto the back are an instant win. Pinning for 30 seconds is awarded maximum points. Penalties are awarded for pulling guard. Shoulder locks are banned.

How does bjj end up looking?

[Wayfaring]

How does bjj end up looking?

Still better than face dancing? :D

[guy b.]

Still better than face dancing? :D

I didn't ask you to try the thought experiment because you have such trouble with thinking

[guy b.]

Seriously try it though, if you can force yourself to remain honest

[Wayfaring]

I didn't ask you to try the thought experiment because you have such trouble with thinking

Even without thinking it's still better than face dancing. :D

[guy b.]

What a fool you are

[Wayfaring]

When bjj was much smaller the principles could be enforced effectively in person.

OK you wanted thinking. WTF do you mean "the principles could be enforced effectively in person?" What clueless drivel. You sound like Helio used to travel around to schools and rap people on the knuckles for "violating BJJ principles".



It is now too large for this, but the ruleset is based on the original principles still.


Thank you Cap'n Obvious.



Are you genuinely denying that the direction of evolution is defined strongly by the competition rules, and that these rules have shaped the character of bjj as it exists today?


This is only part of the picture. Sure competition rules push an art in a direction. For example, the completely retarded judo rules that are in play currently in international competition.

With BJJ, though, and the UFC, there is a tight connection to grappling without the gi, and in a scenario where strikes are allowed. This, although still a competition with short rounds, is a step more towards self-defense than sport BJJ in the kimono. There is cross-training and cross-competition between BJJ practitioners and MMA fighters.

There is also a strong contingent dedicated to keeping BJJ as a street defense art. That's Rorian's kids - the Gracie Academy. And Relson and line. And many other old school professors.

So basically you are missing 2/3 of the story with your comment, and those other two directions will keep it in check.



Try this thought experiment: bjj rules change tomorrow. Throws onto the back are an instant win. Pinning for 30 seconds is awarded maximum points. Penalties are awarded for pulling guard. Shoulder locks are banned.

How does bjj end up looking?

Like I could still take you down, obtain mount, and end the fight despite what retards are doing to win a particular competition?

Most of the rule changes I'm seeing proposed are like submission only tournaments. Points don't matter, etc. People like things that are more real.

[anerlich]

What a fool you are

I see you don't do logic

[anerlich]

It is now too large for this, but the ruleset is based on the original principles still. Are you genuinely denying that the direction of evolution is defined strongly by the competition rules, and that these rules have shaped the character of bjj as it exists today?

It can't be both "based on the original principles still" and be "defined strongly by the competition rules".

Rules have shaped the character of sport BJJ, but IMO not even close to fundamentally and not to the extent you claim.

I disagree that it's "too large". Instructors can do what they like in their own gyms. Suggesting they're all brainwashed by the IBJJF rules as to what they teach does not match reality.

What Wayfaring and I took most issue with, IMO, is your statement that Telles' game is somehow "devolutionary" because his moves from turtle aren't awarded with points.

You keep harping on on other fixations, but this is the main assertion you haven't justified.

Here's a thought experiment for you: what if reversals from the turtle were granted an instant win? If giving the back gave you 3 points? If causing your opponent to inflate and float away as in Harry Potter - The Prisoner of Azkaban was granted an instant win?

What would BJJ look like then?

[Sean66]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSS7IYSs7WY

[BPWT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSS7IYSs7WY

Thanks for this! :)

[guy b.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSS7IYSs7WY

"jiu jitsu principles haven't changed since day one"

surprise surprise, lol

[guy b.]

OK you wanted thinking.

At last



Sure competition rules push an art in a direction.

Thank you for acknowledging your mistake



With BJJ, though, and the UFC, there is a tight connection to grappling without the gi, and in a scenario where strikes are allowed. This, although still a competition with short rounds, is a step more towards self-defense than sport BJJ in the kimono. There is cross-training and cross-competition between BJJ practitioners and MMA fighters.

There is also a strong contingent dedicated to keeping BJJ as a street defense art. That's Rorian's kids - the Gracie Academy. And Relson and line. And many other old school professors.

So basically you are missing 2/3 of the story with your comment, and those other two directions will keep it in check.

Lol of course. The principles of bjj are based on using grappling in actual fighting. The rules police these principles, ensuring that sports bjj doesn't become disengaged from the original purpose of bjj as defined by Carlos and Helio. You are repeating my own argument back to me. I take it then that you are convinced and that you will pipe down?

[Wayfaring]

Lol of course. The principles of bjj are based on using grappling in actual fighting. The rules police these principles, ensuring that sports bjj doesn't become disengaged from the original purpose of bjj as defined by Carlos and Helio. You are repeating my own argument back to me. I take it then that you are convinced and that you will pipe down?

First, I'm not convinced by a long stretch that you even know the principles of BJJ. Please highlight your understanding for all of us, including your grappling background and rank.

Next, no you are highly mistaken in the above paragraph. But what else is new among BJJ white belts who don't spar?

[guy b.]

First, I'm not convinced by a long stretch that you even know the principles of BJJ. Please highlight your understanding for all of us, including your grappling background and rank.

Next, no you are highly mistaken in the above paragraph. But what else is new among BJJ white belts who don't spar?

Hahaha, you are so insecure. Inevitable that the bjj police would make an appearance sooner or later.

Maybe you should buy a different colored belt to make you feel better?

[Wayfaring]

Hahaha, you are so insecure. Inevitable that the bjj police would make an appearance sooner or later.

Maybe you should buy a different colored belt to make you feel better?

I read posts like this and think you are certainly a master of projection. You label everyone else with your own insecurities. Who knows maybe there's another LARP'er besides you out there that might believe you. It's possible.

And it is SO TRANSPARENT that every time someone asks you for your understanding of which principles are being broken that you can't answer. You deflect, call names, dodge the question. You call someone the "bjj police" when in reality you are the "bjj mall security cop" who is telling everyone that a well-known BJJ black belt and competitor is devolving the art with techniques that he learned and proved at the highest levels of competition and is now teaching.

Nobody else in this thread discussing the principles of grappling is so afraid of posting up their understanding of them. But you are. Why are you so afraid?

[guy b.]

I read posts like this and think you are certainly a master of projection. You label everyone else with your own insecurities. Who knows maybe there's another LARP'er besides you out there that might believe you. It's possible.

And it is SO TRANSPARENT that every time someone asks you for your understanding of which principles are being broken that you can't answer. You deflect, call names, dodge the question.

Nobody else in this thread discussing the principles of grappling is so afraid of posting up their understanding of them. But you are. Why are you so afraid?

Provide me with what I asked for and I will write you an essay on the principles of bjj. I did ask first after all.

Lol at accusing me of projecting immediately after I identified you doing it. You are actually pretty weak mentally, but I am happy to work with you still. You should be grateful champ

[guy b.]

You call someone the "bjj police" when in reality you are the "bjj mall security cop" who is telling everyone that a well-known BJJ black belt and competitor is devolving the art with techniques that he learned and proved at the highest levels of competition and is now teaching.

Bwahahaha

Telles can succeed at grappling while breaking the principles of bjj. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Wayfaring]

Provide me with what I asked for and I will write you an essay on the principles of bjj. I did ask first after all.

Lol at accusing me of projecting immediately after I identified you doing it. You are actually pretty weak mentally, but I am happy to work with you still. You should be grateful champ

Next principle of trolling - demands. "provide me what I asked for".

Sorry chump. I'm not the Wizard of Oz. And I don't have a spare brain or heart that I could lend to you to make you less pathetic.

[Wayfaring]

Bwahahaha

Telles can succeed at grappling while breaking the principles of bjj. The two are not mutually exclusive.

guyb can fail at trolling while not understanding the principles of BJJ, that's for sure. Telles, not so much.

[guy b.]

Next principle of trolling - demands. "provide me what I asked for".

Sorry chump. I'm not the Wizard of Oz. And I don't have a spare brain or heart that I could lend to you to make you less pathetic.

Why is it ok for you to avoid requests made prior to your request, but not ok for me to avoid requests made after my requests? This doesn't seem logical

[Wayfaring]

Why is it ok for you to avoid requests made prior to your request, but not ok for me to avoid requests made after my requests? This doesn't seem logical

Different categories. I criticized a compliant WCK clip. You got all upset and started making demands for me to put up clips of good WCK. I'm not your slave to search out clips on the internet.

You are making claims that a top level BJJ practitioner, competitor, and coach is "devolving" the art of BJJ. I'm asking for simple explanations from you of why you think so and what principles you think he's breaking. You refuse to provide supporting evidence for your claims.

So it's not the same thing, in spite of your attempts to try to make it so.

[guy b.]

Different categories. I criticized a compliant WCK clip. You got all upset and started making demands for me to put up clips of good WCK. I'm not your slave to search out clips on the internet.

You are making claims that a top level BJJ practitioner, competitor, and coach is "devolving" the art of BJJ. I'm asking for simple explanations from you of why you think so and what principles you think he's breaking. You refuse to provide supporting evidence for your claims.

So it's not the same thing, in spite of your attempts to try to make it so.

It is exactly the same thing.

You criticised a high quality live wing chun clip but refused to provide evidence to back up your criticism. i.e. you just mouthed off about it and continue to lie and obfuscate at every opportunity

I criticise Telles, whose changes to the art of bjj are not regarded as being in line with its founding principles by a wide range of different black belts and you get all mouthy about it, start crying, and attempt a pathetic bjj citizens arrest on me. Well I'm sorry matey, it just doesn't work that way. If you want your question answered then answer mine first. The world does not revolve around your personal opinions.

[Wayfaring]

It is exactly the same thing.

You criticised a high quality live wing chun clip but refused to provide evidence to back up your criticism. i.e. you just mouthed off about it and continue to lie and obfuscate at every opportunity

I criticise Telles, whose changes to the art of bjj are not regarded as being in line with its founding principles by a wide range of different black belts and you get all mouthy about it, start crying, and attempt a pathetic bjj citizens arrest on me. Well I'm sorry matey, it just doesn't work that way. If you want your question answered then answer mine first. The world does not revolve around your personal opinions.

Wow the troll is getting expressive....

Even using pirate language like "matey". "Ahoy matey", answer me question first ye will or ye get naught from me.....

And whatever. Telles would laugh you off, especially after seeing your "high quality live" wing chun with the holding the face and dancing across the floor.

[guy b.]

Wow the troll is getting expressive....

Even using pirate language like "matey". "Ahoy matey", answer me question first ye will or ye get naught from me.....

And whatever. Telles would laugh you off, especially after seeing your "high quality live" wing chun with the holding the face and dancing across the floor.

Is Telles here? He would probably laugh you off too. That wouldn't change the fact that his 'innovations' are contrary to the principles of bjj

[anerlich]

whose changes to the art of bjj are not regarded as being in line with its founding principles by a wide range of different black belts

Which black belts? Quotes?

[guy b.]

Which black belts? Quotes?

You will have to ask Wayfaring

[Wayfaring]

You will have to ask Wayfaring

To substantiate your claim that I completely disagree with?

Are you huffing glue again?

[Wayfaring]

I criticise Telles, whose changes to the art of bjj are not regarded as being in line with its founding principles by a wide range of different black belts and you get all mouthy about it, start crying, and attempt a pathetic bjj citizens arrest on me. Well I'm sorry matey, it just doesn't work that way. If you want your question answered then answer mine first. The world does not revolve around your personal opinions.

Again, who are you referring to in this paragraph when you mention "a wide range of different black belts" ???? Anerlich asked you this. I asked you this.

I didn't make this claim. You did. So back it up and stop trying to make it my responsibility to find evidence which is not there for your stupid viewpoint.

You know what I think? You don't have a source, and you are afraid (rightfully so) that if you list a black belt one of us probably knows him or someone in his lineage and could easily contact him to verify your stupidity.

[guy b.]

To substantiate your claim that I completely disagree with?

Are you huffing glue again?

You reply to me, I reply to you. Anything else would just be rude

[guy b.]

Again, who are you referring to in this paragraph when you mention "a wide range of different black belts" ???? Anerlich asked you this. I asked you this.

Answer the question


I didn't make this claim. You did. So back it up and stop trying to make it my responsibility to find evidence which is not there for your stupid viewpoint.

Answer the question


You know what I think? You don't have a source, and you are afraid (rightfully so) that if you list a black belt one of us probably knows him or someone in his lineage and could easily contact him to verify your stupidity.

Dream on champ.

[jesper]

Guys give it up. you will never get a straight answer from him. He ****ed up and is to dumb proud to admit it

[guy b.]

I am perfectly happy to answer your bjj questions. But you need to answer mine first

[Wayfaring]

I am perfectly happy to answer your bjj questions. But you need to answer mine first

All right. I'll answer your bjj question. No, you can't develop an understanding of grappling fundamentals without traveling out away from your mom's basement.

Thank you.

Now our answers please.

[guy b.]

All right. I'll answer your bjj question. No, you can't develop an understanding of grappling fundamentals without traveling out away from your mom's basement.

Thank you.

Now our answers please.

Don't be scared

[Wayfaring]

Don't be scared

Fallon Fox syndrome.

[guy b.]

Fallon Fox syndrome.

Don't copy, try to be original

[sihing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3gByvZ-dG5Y

Another teaching/training clip, working the line recovery ideas off the laap sau drill.

Basic stuff essentially, but if the guys can't do it consistently in training drills, they won't produce it in sparring drills either to any degree, which makes them cheat and think of winning, rather than using what they are learning in the training and drills, so I emphasize continued drilling, which to me it what VT is, development and understand via drills and such.

Sooner or later will get some more outside strict VT frame and movement type training up:)

Enjoy:)

J

[Wayfaring]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3gByvZ-dG5Y

Another teaching/training clip, working the line recovery ideas off the laap sau drill.

J

cool basic drills

[jesper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3gByvZ-dG5Y

Another teaching/training clip, working the line recovery ideas off the laap sau drill.

Basic stuff essentially, but if the guys can't do it consistently in training drills, they won't produce it in sparring drills either to any degree, which makes them cheat and think of winning, rather than using what they are learning in the training and drills, so I emphasize continued drilling, which to me it what VT is, development and understand via drills and such.

Sooner or later will get some more outside strict VT frame and movement type training up:)

Enjoy:)

J

nice relaxed teaching. always good to see a teacher that takes the time to properly explain stuff

[sihing]

some more vids from up North here:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhxOiCK0dzc - Bringing the guys thru some ideas on Hand before Feet, Hit off Toi Ma, Eating Space...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vCrrx78UPI - one of the guys put this together, a compilation of the ppl that train here, and some of what we are up too..

Enjoy:)

James

[sihing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9FILe-YVeo

my version of our spring here in TBay:) Have a great day everyone, enjoy the sun and spring if it is where you are:)

James

[sihing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWrjqas1qTk

a jab --> bong/wu sau hit recovery pad drill, was shown this on a visit to Calgary back in 10', working it out here...

Enjoy:)

James

[sihing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmPP-3TIGok - side pak usage in laap sau and application,,,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIpR55RIm1g - Bag Work routine I developed for some basic power development in VT punching and some Freestyle hitting..

Enjoy:)

James

[KPM]

I've been going back through this thread. Good vid clips James! Thanks for persisting through the noise on this thread. ;) Keep the clips coming.

[sihing]

Thanks Keith:)

Ok here's another one, some pad work VT style:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcRzK6aDNY0

Enjoy!

James

[Sean66]

Yes, thanks for the clips James!
Good stuff, and I like that pad work. Keep developing it.