Stick drilling vs stick fighting: is there a connection?

[SavvySavage]

1)This first video is drilling. It looks very nice but eventually you can see the patterns they are making over and over again during each different drill.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=wYYIn6OeBdw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DwYYIn6OeBdw

2)This is a stick fighting tournament. When I look at the fights I can't see a connection between the drilling from the first video in relation with the fighting. They seem to just be whacking each other at weird angles while fighting.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tQQ_w67yqz8

What's the point of the first video? Wouldn't it be more efficient to just practice whacking each other fast and at weird angles and evading the other persons attack? The first video seems like a waste. Where am I going wrong?

[Subitai]

In the 2nd clip...they are using allot more padding and protection...and therefore, people react differently when they know they're not really going to get hurt.

Or you can get more crazy like the Dog Bros. Some use pads...some go hardcore w/o.

I'm not saying that Dog Bros is for everyone... but just like in boxing, you can see people getting set up and then countered.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELN-DQI5qc


The connection is there...it's just very brief. It's not a waste of your time if you win. No matter how brief the connection, it's only because the other guy doesn't want to get hurt, that people react differently than in drills. So what, sooner or later if he really wants to hurt you, he must give you some sort of an attack. Learning to recognize patterns, timing, rhythm and setting a guy up comes with experience.

Just like if you were to watch fencers with real swords. Not very movie like if the only thing you see is a quick parry and then in the blink of an eye...there's a hole in the other guys heart. It's kinda anti-climatic.

[YouKnowWho]

I can't see a connection between the drilling from the first video in relation with the fighting.
If jab, cross, hook, hook combo doesn't exist in your forms, there is something wrong about your system. This is why you should create your own drills. Your drills should come from "your personal combat experience" and not from forms.

[bawang]

If jab, cross, hook, hook combo doesn't exist in your forms, there is something wrong about your system. This is why you should create your own drills. Your drills should come from "your personal combat experience" and not from forms.

jab cross hook is too primitive for kung fu. real kung fu only use forearm bridging and weird wrist qinna.

[Lucas]

jab cross hook is too primitive for kung fu. real kung fu only use forearm bridging and weird wrist qinna.

lol !!!!!!!!!!!

[David Jamieson]

If jab, cross, hook, hook combo doesn't exist in your forms, there is something wrong about your system. This is why you should create your own drills. Your drills should come from "your personal combat experience" and not from forms.

Or both if they check out.

In general I agree, jab/cross/hook and uppercut are the staple items of hand strikes.

And totally agree that if you can pull something from direct experience and drill it, then do so. No teacher like direct experience, ever.

[Kymus]

1)This is a stick fighting tournament. When I look at the fights I can't see a connection between the drilling from the first video in relation with the fighting. They seem to just be whacking each other at weird angles while fighting.

I've never done competitive stick fighting before, but the school I learned my Escrima from has trained a handful of championship stick fighters. Still, I see the same thing you see: random *whack whack whack*. I haven't seen tons of stick fighting competitions, but from what I have seen, that's all I've seen.

Maybe it's easy for me to say this, since I've never competed, but I imagine that if I ware in this position my first instinct would be to come in with something like a Heaven 6 and then if I'm getting pummeled back, to use either footwork to retreat or move to the side, or attempt a disarm. But again, things change when you're in the heat of the moment.


What's the point of the first video? Wouldn't it be more efficient to just practice whacking each other fast and at weird angles and evading the other persons attack? The first video seems like a waste. Where am I going wrong?

I think this is a metaphor for what's wrong with most martial arts these days.. there's a lack of training for each step of combat. I could go on (and on and on) but I'll stay on topic. Short answer: yes, you're absolutely correct.

[Kymus]

In the 2nd clip...they are using allot more padding and protection...and therefore, people react differently when they know they're not really going to get hurt.

BINGO!!!

I remember seeing a video demonstration from - I think - Burton Richardson talking about knife sparring in Kali. First he gave his guys padding and they went back and forth a lot, then he gave them one of those electric knives and they changed completely. They mostly didn't try for an attack for fear that the other guy would counter and get them.

As I said previously, I think this is a metaphor for what's wrong with a lot of martial arts these days, but that's a different topic.

Either way, you're spot on. People act different when there is no fear.

[PlumDragon]

Wonderful. Everyone here recognizes that the patterns and lack of realism in the first video does not translate to a random, pressurized situation.

Rhetorical Question: How many of you are going to go practice some patterned flow drills, forms, or similar stuff in that video at your next training session...?

[Kymus]

Rhetorical Question: How many of you are going to go practice some patterned flow drills, forms, or similar stuff in that video at your next training session...?

These drills are beneficial learning aides for the student. The drills themselves aren't the problem; the problem is stopping there and not taking it a step further.

In my school we would do defensive drills where the oppoenent would come at you with a single stick and you'd have a single stick or a single stick and knife (you could do it empty handed, but we didn't train it much). This trained "pass and hit"; you hit the opponent's wrist/hand/forearm while either directing or redirecting their attack and then they counter and you keep going back and forth. It's a live drill that throws random attacks at you.

The problem is that it's easy to get caught up in it like a dance. You forget about the subtleties of actual combat and get rused in to thinking that it is combat because they're coming at you fast, at random, and you have to react. But..


Distance usually isn't accurate. 99% of the time, your partner will be striking from a somewhat safe distance. Realistically, they should be attacking closer
Even when doing similar drills involving empty hand vs stick defense, when flicking the stick away, they should be going for your legs on the down swing and this never really happens (though proper footwork is drilled in to you to avoid this, if they're at the right distance, it's different. You have to move further and think more).
If you screw up with the defense, you don't have to worry (99%) of the time about getting thwacked


This isn't the fault of the drill; it's the fault of not doing the drill real enough. When I do it with folks I've taught, I've started to play with this and after years of doing it so-so, I notice how different it feels when I do it right and how much more difficult it is.

When my partner comes at me, he should be closer, and thus I have to react quicker and stronger to do the technique right. When my defense involves a downswing of their hand (thus bringing their stick close to my legs), I need to not just do the right footwork (step back/to the side), I need to make sure they're in range to hit my leg if I don't react quick enough or step away enough.

I think the right appraoch should involve 3 basic steps:


no resistance
some resistance
full resistance


(of course, there are points in between, but this is the basics)

Even at the school I attended, we didn't really do the last one; just lots of the middle one. This lead to bad habits for me which took me something like 10 years to notice and begin to correct (and that's only because of my training philosophy).

Short version: the drills/forms aren't the problem. How students are taught to train them is the problem.

[Kellen Bassette]

These drills are beneficial learning aides for the student. The drills themselves aren't the problem; the problem is stopping there and not taking it a step further.


This sums it all up.

[SavvySavage]

These drills are beneficial learning aides for the student. The drills themselves aren't the problem; the problem is stopping there and not taking it a step further.

In my school we would do defensive drills where the oppoenent would come at you with a single stick and you'd have a single stick or a single stick and knife (you could do it empty handed, but we didn't train it much). This trained "pass and hit"; you hit the opponent's wrist/hand/forearm while either directing or redirecting their attack and then they counter and you keep going back and forth. It's a live drill that throws random attacks at you.

The problem is that it's easy to get caught up in it like a dance. You forget about the subtleties of actual combat and get rused in to thinking that it is combat because they're coming at you fast, at random, and you have to react. But..


Distance usually isn't accurate. 99% of the time, your partner will be striking from a somewhat safe distance. Realistically, they should be attacking closer
Even when doing similar drills involving empty hand vs stick defense, when flicking the stick away, they should be going for your legs on the down swing and this never really happens (though proper footwork is drilled in to you to avoid this, if they're at the right distance, it's different. You have to move further and think more).
If you screw up with the defense, you don't have to worry (99%) of the time about getting thwacked


This isn't the fault of the drill; it's the fault of not doing the drill real enough. When I do it with folks I've taught, I've started to play with this and after years of doing it so-so, I notice how different it feels when I do it right and how much more difficult it is.

When my partner comes at me, he should be closer, and thus I have to react quicker and stronger to do the technique right. When my defense involves a downswing of their hand (thus bringing their stick close to my legs), I need to not just do the right footwork (step back/to the side), I need to make sure they're in range to hit my leg if I don't react quick enough or step away enough.

I think the right appraoch should involve 3 basic steps:


no resistance
some resistance
full resistance


(of course, there are points in between, but this is the basics)

Even at the school I attended, we didn't really do the last one; just lots of the middle one. This lead to bad habits for me which took me something like 10 years to notice and begin to correct (and that's only because of my training philosophy).

Short version: the drills/forms aren't the problem. How students are taught to train them is the problem.

Good post.
Speaking generally, what are the inbetween moments? How should we train martial arts for combat realistically? In my experience you go from no resistance to all out. My teacher always says, "I can't give you fighting experience. You just have to do it." He is right but there aren't many specifics on how to do so.

[Kymus]

Good post.
Speaking generally, what are the inbetween moments? How should we train martial arts for combat realistically? In my experience you go from no resistance to all out. My teacher always says, "I can't give you fighting experience. You just have to do it." He is right but there aren't many specifics on how to do so.

Well, keep in mind that my foundation is built off of JKD, Muay Thai, and Kali/Escrima, so... this is my approach and theory.

After I left my old JKD(+Kali and Muay Thai) school, I got really interested in TCMA (I was about 18 - 20 then). But the only downside I see to the traditional arts is that there is rarely the focus to detail. Applications are taught, but rarely are they trained. It's just memorization of technique. I think most students and teachers don't understand that memorization won't always do it.

Now, this isn't always the case. When I was 7 I studied American Kempo for a few months. The first technique I learned was "how to get out of a Japanese strangle hold". I was taught to elbow the stomach, hammer fist down, then elbow the chin. Fast forward ~7 years and there was this thing in my 6th or 7th grade class where folks were being thrown in to the paper recylce bin. Somehow I was the last one. The biggest kid in school (rather tall, and kinda meaty) tried it on me and out of instinct I reacted when he tried grabbing me from behind. I was the only person that didn't end up in there :D.

Now maybe this has something to do with the fact that it was drilled for a day when I learned it, I'm not sure.

I look at stuff like JKD and Muay Thai as "pick up and use". The techniques are straight forward (though JKD's trapping takes practice) and could likely be used by someone after the first day. For both arts there are only a few techniques - for the most part - so class time is mostly spent doing pad work. Students get used to doing these movements, and they memorize them. With Muay Thai, we did a good deal of sparing and endurance training as well.

In JKD, when doing trapping, we always started in the engagement position. We were told how the application was against an incoming punch, but........... we never trained that way much. Despite having correct technique in my trapping, I really don't think I'd be able to actually complete a pak sao (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm0VeCIPAJM) on someone and pin their arm to their chest (maybe some Wing Chun guys here can add to this?). My trapping experience from JKD I just use as a road map for close quarters fighting. I'm comfortable with fighting in very close combat, but I really don't believe that I could successfully trap and lock.

I think that ideally, movements should be drilled, and it should follow the 3 phases I outlined. When I teach a staff form, I then work with my student on those same movements and blocks will gradually be drilled with full power and then we'll spar using solely the movements from that form. I think that this helps the student to truly understand the techniques and it helps them figure out the puzzle that is their form.

Like I mentioned before, in Kali when we redirect the opponent's attack in a circular motion, we bring it inside, then downward and out. The footwork we learn teaches us to move our lead leg out when doing this so that it doesn't get cut/hit on the downswing. Never did my instructor critque us to make sure that we were doing this right. Our footwork was right, and our stick and empty hand work was right, but what wasn't right was our distancing. Out of respect for the partner, we would always (and it wasn't a rule; everyone did it. Perhaps new students learned from old students?) do this at a safe distance and as a result, the timing on the footwork never had to be correct. Further, the partner would never purposely try to hit your leg on the downswing. This year, I realized how absurd this is, so i started training closer to my partner and if they or I get hit in the leg, then it's our own stupid fault for not doing it right.

When doing empty hand vs stick drills, there is a similar problem: the partner never tries to hit you; they always attack from at least a slightly safe distance. We can do these techniques fast enough, and I think we got them down right for the most part, but as a result, we get used to doing this from the improper range. Like I said before, I believe, the same thing happens when we do pass and hit drills with double stick. Some of us (myself especially) want to do this at full speed, but when I learned this, we always practiced from a somewhat safe distance. There was some holding back. If I messed up, there were no repercussions. When I've done this at the proper range (where if I screw up, I would get hit), I've noticed how it feels different and my movements have to be tighter.

So considering all this, I think that some factors should always be considered when training:


Start out slow to learn the technique
Gradually increase speed and power to improve reaction timing
Most importantly, practice this while actually trying to fight for real. This can be divided in to stationary and moving parts. Start the technique out stationary and full resist (so after punching, you should withdraw the arm immediately), and then try it while moving around and this then further trains it so that the student gets used to distancing.


One thing I do with my guys is I'll have them hyper focus by training just kicks, just punches, or just grappling. I'll pair two students together and have one just kick, and the other just punch or just grapple. I like to think that this will help further their understanding of their techniques, but it's too soon to say.

Getting back on to the topic here though, I think the problem is that there is that security buffer from the armour. There is no fear, and there is little caution. I have to ponder as to whether these individuals are taught by their teachers on what to do if they're getting pummelled with sticks. Maybe it's just accepted? I have no idea, since I never competed in stick fighting. Just from my POV, I think they should focus more on avoiding the opponent's hits than just scoring hits on the other guy.

One good thing I definitely did learn though: environmental training. Sometimes our instructor would take us out back and we'd practice our double stick drills on all kinds of platforms. One student was higher up, the other was lower. We also trained how to do these drills standing, sitting, moving, laying down, or laying down and circling. I could do that in my sleep. Looks real impressive, but it's not that hard. Maybe I'm just saying that because I've always been taught it that way?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Drills establish a core that allows you to deal with the random and uncontrolled pressure of real fighting.
DBMA has tons of drills too.
IT is when the drills become the "end" as opposed to the "means to an end" that issues arise.

The only way to learn how to deal with the real pressure of fighting is to fight, period.
Do you have to fight forever? nope, but you do have to put in your time or you will never get it.

[SavvySavage]

For those that argued that armor played a big part in how the stick fights looked...here is a video of a full contact stick fight where the only armor is head gear. And still all I see is stick whacking from different angles which again is not what you see in the training drills video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UCJCvayQ_NE

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR0h9ncCl9Q

[Kellen Bassette]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR0h9ncCl9Q

My money is on the one with the machine gun.

Not to cross threads, but I see the ritual of forms here as well.

Lastly, did Gene sell them their head gear?

[Kymus]

D@mn those dudes hit hard!

I think it was Burton Richardson that went to somewhere in Africa and learned their stick fighting art. It was in one of his youtube videos.

[SoCo KungFu]

There's a couple places I could think of where I might want some more of that armor, if I were one of them. Just my observation.

[Kymus]

Unless I wasn't paying enough attention, it seems like they don't block. They mostly just try to evade or get the stronger hit in. Those dudes can sure take a beating though.. :eek:

[Kellen Bassette]

Unless I wasn't paying enough attention, it seems like they don't block. They mostly just try to evade or get the stronger hit in. Those dudes can sure take a beating though.. :eek:


I noticed one man using the stick horizontally to trap his opponents stick...and yeah...I'd want a cup on...

[-N-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR0h9ncCl9Q

Looks a little like Praying Mantis 6 Harmonies Staff.

[lance]

1)This first video is drilling. It looks very nice but eventually you can see the patterns they are making over and over again during each different drill.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=wYYIn6OeBdw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DwYYIn6OeBdw

2)This is a stick fighting tournament. When I look at the fights I can't see a connection between the drilling from the first video in relation with the fighting. They seem to just be whacking each other at weird angles while fighting.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tQQ_w67yqz8

What's the point of the first video? Wouldn't it be more efficient to just practice whacking each other fast and at weird angles and evading the other persons attack? The first video seems like a waste. Where am I going wrong? SavvySavage , subitai is right about the videos you provided on your topic post , to me it really goes both ways . Ofcoarse the idea is to whack the opponent to disarm the opponent right ? But the opponent going be doing the samething as you so its' a challenge . So experiencing stick fighting is how you can figure out , how to battle your opponent . You see we can all get 2 - sticks and attack the opponent with both sticks right ? Your opponent going be defending himself against you and you going be doing the samething as your opponent so that ' s where the challenge is , when you experience stick fighting then , you ' ll know how to defeat your opponent .


Lance

[SavvySavage]

SavvySavage , subitai is right about the videos you provided on your topic post , to me it really goes both ways . Ofcoarse the idea is to whack the opponent to disarm the opponent right ? But the opponent going be doing the samething as you so its' a challenge . So experiencing stick fighting is how you can figure out , how to battle your opponent . You see we can all get 2 - sticks and attack the opponent with both sticks right ? Your opponent going be defending himself against you and you going be doing the samething as your opponent so that ' s where the challenge is , when you experience stick fighting then , you ' ll know how to defeat your opponent .


Lance

So learn to attack first, learn to attack fast....and skip the drills in the first video I posted?

[mawali]

1)This first video is drilling. It looks very nice but eventually you can see the patterns they are making over and over again during each different drill.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=wYYIn6OeBdw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DwYYIn6OeBdw

2)This is a stick fighting tournament. When I look at the fights I can't see a connection between the drilling from the first video in relation with the fighting. They seem to just be whacking each other at weird angles while fighting.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tQQ_w67yqz8

What's the point of the first video? Wouldn't it be more efficient to just practice whacking each other fast and at weird angles and evading the other persons attack? The first video seems like a waste. Where am I going wrong?

Drilling is usually a first step in any sport, where you do the individual components then over time actually test the level of skill against a similar opponent. I think that a lot of people confuse CMA ritual with other ritual types and this confuses people. Just like the Mongol or Uzbeks who, as part of their heritage do the various horseback "tricks", which ere actually part of the horde tactics since today the horde is no more. A past tradition relegated to what we see in NatGeo or some anthropological film. Even buskazi (polo:D) as game, shows skill still retained as part of competition and friendly sportsmanship.

[YouKnowWho]

Your training can start from

1. the root (drills) and go to the leaves (fighting).
2. both the root and the leaves at the same time.
3. the leaves and go to the root.

Since method 2 only takes 1/2 as much time as the other 2 methods, it's better method IMO.

[bawang]

Unless I wasn't paying enough attention, it seems like they don't block. They mostly just try to evade or get the stronger hit in. Those dudes can sure take a beating though.. :eek:
ur not paying enough attention.

[Kymus]

ur not paying enough attention.

Thanks for that clarification, Bawang! :D