Connection [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Wayfaring

05-16-2013, 08:33 AM

k gledhill

05-16-2013, 08:44 AM

Wayfaring

05-16-2013, 08:45 AM

You really are clueless .

Then enlighten me oh great master troll.

wingchunIan

05-16-2013, 08:51 AM

the clip started off really well and was interesting. Once the guy on the right started play acting I had to switch off though. As for the concept in action, I think this is similar to what HC was trying to explain about Ip Man in the clip posted on the other thread.
When doing chi sao we talk about three energetic states that are fluid and interchangeable, sung lik which is yeilding (soft), gung lik which is forwarding (hard) and mo lik which is neither (neutral). The ability to know whether you are pushing or your partner is pushing (or both) is a key attribute of sensitivity developed through chi sao along with the ability to detect through touch the direction of force being applied by the opponent / partner and respond accordingly with the best combination of structures, positioning (footwork) and energy. IMO the ability to replace the natural urge to push or pull ie to resist the force applied with a subconcious response of loy lau, hoi sung lat sao jik jung, is the key purpose of chi sao.

Wayfaring

05-16-2013, 09:02 AM

the clip started off really well and was interesting. Once the guy on the right started play acting I had to switch off though. As for the concept in action, I think this is similar to what HC was trying to explain about Ip Man in the clip posted on the other thread.

Yeah the opponents were annoyingly compliant going up on their toes. I have heard reports from credible people that this guys judo school has really good flow live though in randori. (They are not known as a top competitive judo school though - full disclaimer) Without feeling the bridge energy I don't know how much they are "yellow bamboo" ing it, or if there is more legit energy. The talker is a heavy guy so there might be some more energy on the bridge than you think.

When doing chi sao we talk about three energetic states that are fluid and interchangeable, sung lik which is yeilding (soft), gung lik which is forwarding (hard) and mo lik which is neither (neutral). The ability to know whether you are pushing or your partner is pushing (or both) is a key attribute of sensitivity developed through chi sao along with the ability to detect through touch the direction of force being applied by the opponent / partner and respond accordingly with the best combination of structures, positioning (footwork) and energy. IMO the ability to replace the natural urge to push or pull ie to resist the force applied with a subconcious response of loy lau, hoi sung lat sao jik jung, is the key purpose of chi sao.

Good description. I noticed similar things which is why I posted it up.

k gledhill

05-16-2013, 09:05 AM

Then enlighten me oh great master troll.

You're in good company with Ian , let him guide you oh humble one.

Wayfaring

05-16-2013, 09:07 AM

You're in good company with Ian , let him guide you oh humble one.

You're really missing your calling writing fortune cookies for a living.

Vajramusti

05-16-2013, 09:20 AM

k gledhill

05-16-2013, 09:26 AM

You're really missing your calling writing fortune cookies for a living.

Way faring you have a common " commercially " designed idea of chi Sao. Arm pressure with feeling and following at the hands and wrists. Until you find a competent source of undiluted information you won't understand.
I make silly replies simply because I can't rectify it by typing. ; )

k gledhill

05-16-2013, 09:27 AM

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting video. However,
there is much more to chi sao than that version of connectivity.
Ofcourse good martial arts will have that element of awareness of balance, feeling and connectivity.

Another " empty " reply form Joy.

Wayfaring

05-16-2013, 09:35 AM

Way faring you have a common " commercially " designed idea of chi Sao. Arm pressure with feeling and following at the hands and wrists. Until you find a competent source of undiluted information you won't understand.

Actually not true. The first element of chi sau we learn in our platform is kiu sau. Nothing in the wrist involved there. Actually there is no element of chi sau that I've learned that's wrist based (well except for heun sau and entries long range).

The fact that there is another martial artist communicating ONE element - connection, that may have something in common with WCK. He happens to be doing wrist-based contact. You misread that into my complete understanding of chi sau somehow, and make stupid assumptions.

I see why you do the fortune cookie approach. You kind of suck at longer discussions.

k gledhill

05-16-2013, 09:39 AM

Actually not true. The first element of chi sau we learn in our platform is kiu sau. Nothing in the wrist involved there. Actually there is no element of chi sau that I've learned that's wrist based (well except for heun sau and entries long range).

The fact that there is another martial artist communicating ONE element - connection, that may have something in common with WCK. He happens to be doing wrist-based contact. You misread that into my complete understanding of chi sau somehow, and make stupid assumptions.

I see why you do the fortune cookie approach. You kind of suck at longer discussions.

Well, er, by , YOUR, assumption there is a relationship to ( your previous posts ) wrestling, judo... I presume you're misinformed. Trying to perpetuate a conversation as YOU have about connectivity shows your lack of understanding.

Wayfaring

05-16-2013, 09:49 AM

Interesting video. However,
there is much more to chi sao than that version of connectivity.
Ofcourse good martial arts will have that element of awareness of balance, feeling and connectivity.

more to chi sau = probably universally agreed

I guess to me the main thing I related to was the pressure/release on the bridge and the use of that to manipulate balance. I was familiar with that in chi sau, but hadn't connected it to kuzushi in judo.

I also was playing around in the takedown portion of grappling class the other day - was walking in parallel stance and doing the old 2 hand chi sau to initiate grip fighting. That was funny - it threw a lot of people off and I was getting to take the back off it a lot. I'll probably keep doing that until someone starts owning me so I can see where the holes are.

Anyway I'm rambling but the combo of the video concept plus messing around with things live sparked my posting it up. It may result in some good convo. Or not.

Wayfaring

05-16-2013, 09:55 AM

Well, er, by , YOUR, assumption there is a relationship to ( your previous posts ) wrestling, judo... I presume you're misinformed. Trying to perpetuate a conversation as YOU have about connectivity shows your lack of understanding.

The only common factor there is I do all 3 of those things. And I search for universal principles. In doing so I try to keep it real so that it has some basis.

Sure I have plenty of lack of understanding about connectivity. It's one of those universal things I keep kicking around all the time. I feel like if I could just get a better handle on it I could do so much more. But I'm sure there's aspects of it that I understand that you are absolutely clueless about. Actually I see that.

I kind of view connectivity like that Albert Einstein quote about mathematics. "don't worry about your problems with mathematics. I assure you mine are greater." not saying I'm the Einstein of connectivity - just that my problems are very large scale on it. I'm trying to find what works across universal arts including grappling based and striking.

k gledhill

05-16-2013, 11:47 AM

The only common factor there is I do all 3 of those things. And I search for universal principles. In doing so I try to keep it real so that it has some basis.

Sure I have plenty of lack of understanding about connectivity. It's one of those universal things I keep kicking around all the time. I feel like if I could just get a better handle on it I could do so much more. But I'm sure there's aspects of it that I understand that you are absolutely clueless about. Actually I see that.

I kind of view connectivity like that Albert Einstein quote about mathematics. "don't worry about your problems with mathematics. I assure you mine are greater." not saying I'm the Einstein of connectivity - just that my problems are very large scale on it. I'm trying to find what works across universal arts including grappling based and striking.

Chi Sao probably the most misunderstood drill in ma.

tc101

05-16-2013, 12:26 PM

So I'm a little sick of all the bong lap lamer videos around, and wanted to depart from that a little.

One topic near and dear to every WCK practitioner's heart is chi sau. Chi sau of course is about a lot of things, but one main topic that it is about is "connection".

"Connection" is a common thread through many martial arts. In judo (and aikido but that's less real) here's the concept of connection taught as "kuzushi". The clip says aikido but the guy showing it actually has a judo school and also teaches aikido.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwnGBLSFg7s

How do the concepts here relate to WCK? Chi sau?

I am not from the Bayer bunch and so I am sure this is completely clueless and wrong but as I learned wing chun, the connection to your opponent is what you use to control him and to set up your strikes and chi sao is a way of learning to do that, and that this is one level of dealing with an opponent.

tc101

05-16-2013, 01:58 PM

People make the mistake of correlating drill and application as the same. Iow during initial stages of chi Sao a lot of blance and pressure is focused on to ensure good arm conditioning. Without coaching the stage of correction and checking , pressuring can be mistaken as how to fight while being in contact.
Once certain errors are ironed out more progressive drills are added , but never losing the base correction of showing pressure is too much or too little. Balance can be played with and seem to become a " way of fighting " , its just a drilling exchange.
In fighting there is no attempt to seek arm pressure to do this action. You can use the errors beginners commit against opponents but not in a two handed roll with arms in parallel.
A lot of chi Sao is redundant to actual vt fighting. It is a high rep conditioning tool as well, so actions become reflex like and reduce thinking time during fast striking attacks.

I understand this is your view. It is nice to see you presenting your view instead of the usual name calling etc and it would even be nicer if your view wasn't presented as my way is the right way and everyone else is making a mistake. Why not just say this is how my group looks at it? Some people with a different view are using their mistaken wrong and confused way to win pro mma fights. I have learned that there are levels, different ways of using your art.

wingchunIan

05-16-2013, 02:28 PM

JPinAZ

05-16-2013, 03:17 PM

The way I see it, if in a real fight I can hit my opponent then I do so. If however my strike gets stopped chi sao teaches me how to remove the obstacle or flow around it. If in the process of defending myself I intercept my opponent's strike chi sao teaches me how to utilise the contact to feel what my opponent is doing. It also teaches me to focus on the opponent's centre rather than their arms, to apply my concentration equally to both sides, when to yield to pushes or pursue pulls however momentary and unexpected and to hit whenever a hand is free. For me, its very relevant to fighting if the reason for training is kept in mind at all times.

At a certian level, this is how I see it as well in application. "If no chi - hit". To me, chi sau is very much for fighting - but then, I don't just view 'chi sau' as just some rolling drill to train attributes either :)

Like wayfaring said, we also have very extensive Kiu Sau training for developing engagement tools & certain bridging strategies. And then there's our Chi Kiu technologies. And we also do have the typically seen Taan/Bong/Fook chi sau that most categorize as wing chun 'chi sau' which we use for squared-up duei yeng time frames - but again, it's all a lot more than just a drill and very much for fighting.

YouKnowWho

05-16-2013, 03:22 PM

guy b.

05-16-2013, 03:26 PM

How do the concepts here relate to WCK? Chi sau?

I see no relation

GlennR

05-16-2013, 03:28 PM

So I'm a little sick of all the bong lap lamer videos around, and wanted to depart from that a little.

One topic near and dear to every WCK practitioner's heart is chi sau. Chi sau of course is about a lot of things, but one main topic that it is about is "connection".

"Connection" is a common thread through many martial arts. In judo (and aikido but that's less real) here's the concept of connection taught as "kuzushi". The clip says aikido but the guy showing it actually has a judo school and also teaches aikido.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwnGBLSFg7s

How do the concepts here relate to WCK? Chi sau?

I liked the clip.

Yeh, his guys were a bit scarecrowy, but i liked his ideas and concepts.

Ultmately, when you are in that close in-trapping-clinch range, regardless of whether you do a striking or grappling art, surely getting the guys COG is the key to success.

Wouldnt that be the key to WC's claim of a smaller person beating a bigger person????

JPinAZ

05-16-2013, 03:43 PM

Why can't "advanced Chi Shou" training start from 2 separate bodies? It should not be difficult to start from a punching range. You throw a punch, your opponent blocks it, you two then start your Chi Shou after that. You may not be able to achieve connection every time. Even if you can only achieve connection 50% of the time, that's combat reality.

This is exactly where HFY's Kiu Sau training normally starts - no contact to contact. A good portion of our kiu sau training is about engagement on centerline (Bai Jong to Jeet Kiu for the most part). And this is typically where new students start their training because this is how most fights typically take place.
Of course our kiu sau also had technologies for bridged contact-fighting outside the box, but you have to start somewhere.

That kind of training will have much more combat value.

Agreed

YouKnowWho

05-16-2013, 07:38 PM

I used to like "connection" until one day I sparred against a guy who just refused to make any connection with me. He just moved around and won't even try to block my punches. It's a very strange feeling as if I was fighting a shadow or ghost. The connection (bridging) is 2 ways street. When you can sense your opponent's intention, your opponent can also sense yours too.

IMO, the best approach is to

- make connection,
- detect your opponent's intention,
- break the connection ASAP, and
- attack.

You can use your left hand to

- grab on,
- stick on, or
- parry (bounce away)

your opponent's right arm and punch his face with your right hand. Which way is better?

BPWT

05-16-2013, 10:17 PM

The training that you move in and "obtain connection" is totally missing. IMO, the training to "obtain connection" can be as important (if not more) as the Chi Shou training itself.

Why can't there is an "advanced Chi Shou" training that start from 2 separate bodies? It should not be difficult to start from a punching range. You throw a punch, your opponent blocks it, you two then start your Chi Shou after that. You may not be able to achieve connection every time. Even if you can only achieve connection 50% of the time, that's combat reality. That kind of training will have much more combat value.

In Wing Tsun the training to "obtain a connection" is present. We get to this via the Lat Sau programs and by playing freely from various different ranges, while working on what we learned in those programs.

The progression is Chi Sau training, Lat Sau training, Sparring. The whole idea of it is to get you using what you learn in Chi Sau and what you can gain from Chi Sau, but in an exchange that doesn't start from Poon Sau.

Here's a clip of some of the elements of this, as it taught by Leung Ting in Hong Kong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZv4qBIEuTs

Of course, what you see here is an aspect of Lat Sau work in Wing Tsun.

I never understand when people think that connecting/sticking/bridge work is not what Chi Sau is about, or that Chi Sau has no relevance in a fight. When you engage with an opponent you are either bridging (in one way or another), or you are not.

But why hit the opponent if they can hit you too?

Wing Tsun is a bridging system - a means to take the center and hit the opponent while you control the bridging (yours or theirs). The most common way to attack someone is with an attack using the arms... Chi Sau, as Hawkins Cheung was saying in the other thread, is about 'on and off', or if you like 'touch and go'. :)

'On and Off' is about many things, but includes timing, bridging, distance management, etc.

If all you trained was Chi Sau, you'd have problems of course. Hence the Lat Sau in the WT organization in Hong Kong. With Lat Sau you make contact, break contact, make contact again, and so on, as that's how things are when you go at it.

The Lat Sau helps you do two things.

1. Start from non-contact

2. Understand how you can use what you learn in Chi Sau as soon as contact is made - however brief it may be.

Essentially, you want to bridge, as bridging is less risky that what you might have otherwise - trading blows and hoping you are faster and have heavier hitting power.

BPWT

05-16-2013, 10:24 PM

To add, the clip is obviously an example of working Lat Sau from a fairly close range.

We also train this exchange (from no contact) from greater and varying distances. Sometimes starting from kicking range, sometimes from a 'step and punch' range, etc.

wingchunIan

05-16-2013, 11:43 PM

WC Chi Shou is like 2 Judo guys get hold on each other and start to wrestle. The training that you move in and "obtain connection" is totally missing. IMO, the training to "obtain connection" can be as important (if not more) as the Chi Shou training itself.

Why can't there is an "advanced Chi Shou" training that start from 2 separate bodies? It should not be difficult to start from a punching range. You throw a punch, your opponent blocks it, you two then start your Chi Shou after that. You may not be able to achieve connection every time. Even if you can only achieve connection 50% of the time, that's combat reality. That kind of training will have much more combat value.

As an opposite view, I don't see any need for a type of chi sao that starts out of contact. We already practice a multitude of drills that deal with intercepting an initial attack moving from no contact to contact (whether that contact is at the arms or the end of a strike or both) including drills that introduce elements of chi sao as a follow on to the initial entry (eg expansions to simple pak sao entry). Chi sao IMO is there to train the what happens next reaction. Starting from poon sao allows for a neutral start point with neither party having any advantage, allowing for a complete range of motion and facilitating practice with both sides of the body. Application work where the partner is free to throw combinations and attack however they wish is where you join the two together.

wingchunIan

05-16-2013, 11:48 PM

At a certian level, this is how I see it as well in application. "If no chi - hit". To me, chi sau is very much for fighting - but then, I don't just view 'chi sau' as just some rolling drill to train attributes either :)

Like wayfaring said, we also have very extensive Kiu Sau training for developing engagement tools & certain bridging strategies. And then there's our Chi Kiu technologies. And we also do have the typically seen Taan/Bong/Fook chi sau that most categorize as wing chun 'chi sau' which we use for squared-up duei yeng time frames - but again, it's all a lot more than just a drill and very much for fighting.

Can you expand on kiu sao and chi kiu? They aren't terms I'm familiar with so it might be that we do the same / similar but call it something else, or it might be something completely different to what I do and if so I'd be interested to understand more.

chaotic2k

05-17-2013, 04:14 AM

Chi sau for me is a way of learning how to keep my own body/stance connection while under pressure. The worse thing in any martial art is losing you base. I need to have a solid but flexable base in stormy seas. This means i can keep pressure on the centre of mass while striking. Alot of the drills can be misleading. My chi sau is a direct link, expression of the concepts found in the forms rather than the movements.

LoneTiger108

05-17-2013, 04:17 AM

tc101

05-17-2013, 04:26 AM

Ultmately, when you are in that close in-trapping-clinch range, regardless of whether you do a striking or grappling art, surely getting the guys COG is the key to success.

Wouldnt that be the key to WC's claim of a smaller person beating a bigger person????

I think this is a very insightful comment.

guy b.

05-17-2013, 05:57 AM

I liked the clip.

Yeh, his guys were a bit scarecrowy, but i liked his ideas and concepts.

Ultmately, when you are in that close in-trapping-clinch range, regardless of whether you do a striking or grappling art, surely getting the guys COG is the key to success.

Wouldnt that be the key to WC's claim of a smaller person beating a bigger person????

I think this is a very insightful comment.

What is "getting" the centre of gravity?

Do you mean hitting to the centre of gravity, directly disrupting/controlling the centre of gravity (various ways, some very different to others), sensing the direction and intent of the centre of gravity, sensing and avoiding the direction and intent of the centre of gravity or a combination of these things? What you "get" has profound consequences in terms of approach.

Any two untrained people wrestling badly will "get" each others centres in some of the above ways.

chaotic2k

05-17-2013, 06:16 AM

Just to add a light note here, my Sifu always used to say that the reason we connect in the first place is to train habits that enable us to disconnect when and how we want to... main reason is because the last thing you would want to do with some styles is to connect and try to manipulate them unless it's with your killer technique lol!!!

Wing Chun is a touch and go system. Get in, do the damage and leave quickly. So any connection should ultimately be very very brief, if at all. This tends to be what the majority of Ip Man system guys talk about and train fme, as do other mainland and village based systems as far as I am aware.

Just thought I would put that out there :cool:

Interesting point....

I agree you need to know when to go in and out with a quick burst but this can be a dangerous approach for wing chunners since you are putting yourself back on the starting line. I agree there are times when you need to keep out of range. The way my own wing chun works is to have a start, middle and finish. This is what i aim for.

Gain entry via timing and position (if an option)
Control Central Mass
Finish the fight by whatever means possible. Everyone understands power.

Alot of wing chun i see have no stopping power and are stuck in a very robotic way to deliver hits.

Ask yourselfs will your wing chun hold up in a tear up. Someone who can fight and wants it trying to take your head off. I doubt i would see a single Tan, bong or gaun etc...

LoneTiger108

05-17-2013, 06:43 AM

Interesting point....

I agree you need to know when to go in and out with a quick burst but this can be a dangerous approach for wing chunners since you are putting yourself back on the starting line. I agree there are times when you need to keep out of range. The way my own wing chun works is to have a start, middle and finish. This is what i aim for.

Ah... but I think we share the idea of when we move in we do attempt to finish them before we leave ;) but obvioulsy this isn't always possible so the damage caused should be enough to incapacitate so I can run away! I aint into killing dudes or claiming to be a bad ass coz I'm good at number 36 technique!!!

I do not take on the competitive mentality and aim to go back for more to score points or acheive a knockout or submission, and I truly believe this is key for Wing Chun students to understand. Do not get caught up in what everyone else says Wing Chun should be, do what you do best. Competitive training/fighting is suited for some but by no means fit for everyone.

Ask yourselfs will your wing chun hold up in a tear up. Someone who can fight and wants it trying to take your head off. I doubt i would see a single Tan, bong or gaun etc...

Listen... there is no need to 'control' anyone for any period of time, as it sounds a bit too much like wrestling. Control is for a nano-second! The system is designed to deliver short sharp shocks to the unititiated, and in some cases it has many advantages over older chinese systems because we can read and react in a way that old application based forms simply do not understand (or didn't back in the day lol!) As for dealing with the well-trained MMA fighter, well ask others here who worship them lol!

As for the power you mention, yes we need to deliver maximum force with minimum effort (another characteristic of good Wing Chun) and this should be relatively easy on the eye and simple to achieve if you have been given the correct tools and training. Actually, fme this way of delivery is rarely even SEEN because it is too fast, but it is definitely felt by the person on the recieving end :D

tc101

05-17-2013, 06:59 AM

What is "getting" the centre of gravity?

Do you mean hitting to the centre of gravity, directly disrupting/controlling the centre of gravity (various ways, some very different to others), sensing the direction and intent of the centre of gravity, sensing and avoiding the direction and intent of the centre of gravity or a combination of these things? What you "get" has profound consequences in terms of approach.

Sure that is a way of doing it.

Any two untrained people wrestling badly will "get" each others centres in some of the above ways.

Yes very true untrained people can sometimes do these things but the idea of training is to be able to do them better more consistently right?

chaotic2k

05-17-2013, 10:16 AM

What do you mean "stopping power"? Are you referring to the ability to generate striking power wherever / whenever?

I mean hard shots. No mystic internal energy. Hard punches, head butts, elbows whatever is available and allows me to keep my control.

LoneTiger108

05-17-2013, 10:29 AM

I mean hard shots. No mystic internal energy. Hard punches, head butts, elbows whatever is available and allows me to keep my control.

Wah! Hard singular shots? Not such a characteristic of Wing Chun unless you've drilled weaponry or the wooden man so at a beginner level we need to hit as I suggested, continuously with accuracy and speed. Power will develop later for those that want it but it should never really be needed imho.

But it really all depends on the purpose of your training and is open to change...

chaotic2k

05-17-2013, 10:33 AM

Ah... but I think we share the idea of when we move in we do attempt to finish them before we leave ;) but obvioulsy this isn't always possible so the damage caused should be enough to incapacitate so I can run away! I aint into killing dudes or claiming to be a bad ass coz I'm good at number 36 technique!!!

I do not take on the competitive mentality and aim to go back for more to score points or acheive a knockout or submission, and I truly believe this is key for Wing Chun students to understand. Do not get caught up in what everyone else says Wing Chun should be, do what you do best. Competitive training/fighting is suited for some but by no means fit for everyone.

Listen... there is no need to 'control' anyone for any period of time, as it sounds a bit too much like wrestling. Control is for a nano-second! The system is designed to deliver short sharp shocks to the unititiated, and in some cases it has many advantages over older chinese systems because we can read and react in a way that old application based forms simply do not understand (or didn't back in the day lol!) As for dealing with the well-trained MMA fighter, well ask others here who worship them lol!

As for the power you mention, yes we need to deliver maximum force with minimum effort (another characteristic of good Wing Chun) and this should be relatively easy on the eye and simple to achieve if you have been given the correct tools and training. Actually, fme this way of delivery is rarely even SEEN because it is too fast, but it is definitely felt by the person on the recieving end :D

I get what your saying. Its your choice and thats cool. I clearly have a different idea of combat. Doesnt mean im right.

From personnel experience i have found that unfortunatly fighting is a tough past time. Alot of things need to be trained and sharp. Doesnt mean you need to be a macho jock to apply this BUT a realistic and functional mind set helps.

Wing chun can hold its own against modern systems but it needs to be taken that step further and tested in a progressive way. Yip man evolved his wing chun, so did WSL and thats where the true spirit of wing chun breeds. When we stay in the same spot talkng about our "sifu" and our old stories of hero worship and bull, we do nothing but stay stuck in the past.

I try to teach stuff that functions. I cant teach my students something that is going to get them hurt just because its the "old way" of teaching.

One last point. How many of you have tried years to be able to apply a move that you were taught by your teacher. This to me shows that the move does not function. Wing chun is very simple and should function very quickley. Thats a major problem with TMA in general.

Excuse my ranting....

chaotic2k

05-17-2013, 10:39 AM

Wah! Hard singular shots? Not such a characteristic of Wing Chun unless you've drilled weaponry or the wooden man so at a beginner level we need to hit as I suggested, continuously with accuracy and speed. Power will develop later for those that want it but it should never really be needed imho.

But it really all depends on the purpose of your training and is open to change...

There is always a continuous flows of attack be it a hit or a barge depends. Im not talking about shutting someone down and doing a haymaker (if it works why not). Im talking short sharp, powerful strikes using my connection. All this is found in the 1st section of siu leem tau and 1st section of Chum kiu. Its bread and butter.

tc101

05-17-2013, 11:15 AM

I get what your saying. Its your choice and thats cool. I clearly have a different idea of combat. Doesnt mean im right.

I think this is very insightful too. Where does the idea that there is but one right way or one best way or one superior way of using our or any art? Like with other martial arts for example boxing or bjj there are many different ideas. I've learned that what matters is not whether your idea is better than my idea but who can better perform and apply their idea. It really is not much of a comfort to say although you beat me to a pulp I have the better idea.

Vajramusti

05-17-2013, 11:37 AM

Chi Sao probably the most misunderstood drill in ma.
------------------------------

IMO that is true,

GlennR

05-17-2013, 03:17 PM

I think this is a very insightful comment.

Thanks tc101........... seems very obvious to me

GlennR

05-17-2013, 03:19 PM

What is "getting" the centre of gravity?

Controlling it, like the guy in the clip does.

Do you mean hitting to the centre of gravity, directly disrupting/controlling the centre of gravity (various ways, some very different to others), sensing the direction and intent of the centre of gravity, sensing and avoiding the direction and intent of the centre of gravity or a combination of these things? What you "get" has profound consequences in terms of approach.

All of the above

Any two untrained people wrestling badly will "get" each others centres in some of the above ways.

Try the word control then

JPinAZ

05-17-2013, 03:20 PM

Yip man evolved his wing chun, so did WSL and thats where the true spirit of wing chun breeds. .

I'd say this is true if only looking at their usage in application (thier own individual styles or preferences while fighting). But IMO, the system of WCK (core concepts/principles) is complete and has no reason to evolve regardless of someone's personal skill or preference in fighting. It will only devolve if you change it.

On a side note, curriculms can evolve to suit the needs, but that is another subject apart from the system itself or one's personal evolution of fighting skills/application of the art.

GlennR

05-17-2013, 03:21 PM

I think this is very insightful too. Where does the idea that there is but one right way or one best way or one superior way of using our or any art? Like with other martial arts for example boxing or bjj there are many different ideas. I've learned that what matters is not whether your idea is better than my idea but who can better perform and apply their idea. It really is not much of a comfort to say although you beat me to a pulp I have the better idea.

Youre wasting your time with a few of them here trying to explain there are different styles and approaches to WC...... as there are in boxing

But hey, have a crack at it!

tc101

05-17-2013, 04:15 PM

Youre wasting your time with a few of them here trying to explain there are different styles and approaches to WC...... as there are in boxing

But hey, have a crack at it!

I don't understand how some one can't agree with that. If you take the position that my idea and my approach is the only right way or best way then how can you explain why there are others using a bad idea or wrong approach who can beat you and achieve levels of performance you haven't? I have the superior way but suck at doing it?

GlennR

05-17-2013, 04:33 PM

anerlich

05-17-2013, 11:02 PM

guy b.

05-18-2013, 01:31 AM

Youre wasting your time with a few of them here trying to explain there are different styles and approaches to WC...... as there are in boxing

But hey, have a crack at it!

That there are different approaches to wing chun is as clear as night and day. I don't think anyone would argue this

guy b.

05-18-2013, 01:39 AM

I don't understand how some one can't agree with that. If you take the position that my idea and my approach is the only right way or best way then how can you explain why there are others using a bad idea or wrong approach who can beat you and achieve levels of performance you haven't? I have the superior way but suck at doing it?

It would be nonsensical to argue that all of the different approaches to wing chun are relative and equally valid because they all do things differently. These different approaches can only be equally valid if what they are doing is completely irrelevant. If any of it is relevant to fighting then some ideas are better and some are worse.

There are plenty of competitive wrestlers that would destroy bjj white and some blue belts in a ground grappling situation simply because of familiarity, strength and athleticism. But nobody would argue that wrestling is a better approach than bjj for fighting on the ground.

GlennR

05-18-2013, 02:15 AM

That there are different approaches to wing chun is as clear as night and day. I don't think anyone would argue this

Surely you jest..... thats the No 1 argument on here

guy b.

05-18-2013, 02:34 AM

Surely you jest..... thats the No 1 argument on here

I've never seen anyone argue this. It is an objective fact directly visible to the eyes of everyone with an internet connection (or a few years in wing chun). Most arguments appear to be about the validity of the different approaches.

tc101

05-18-2013, 04:31 AM

I've never seen anyone argue this. It is an objective fact directly visible to the eyes of everyone with an internet connection (or a few years in wing chun). Most arguments appear to be about the validity of the different approaches.

We all agree that like with boxing bjj and other martial arts, there are various approaches to wing chun. There are also various levels of performance for example some perform at semi pro level and others at different levels is that not true? This is also true of boxing bjj and other martial arts.

I think that it is not your idea or approach that is so important but rather how well you can execute or perform your idea or approach that matters. Arguing about how my idea is better or more valid is arguing about something that does not matter. The other thing I've learned is much of this may be tied to an individual's level of performance. This is something I've seen in other martial arts too.

tc101

05-18-2013, 04:43 AM

It would be nonsensical to argue that all of the different approaches to wing chun are relative and equally valid because they all do things differently. These different approaches can only be equally valid if what they are doing is completely irrelevant. If any of it is relevant to fighting then some ideas are better and some are worse.

There are plenty of competitive wrestlers that would destroy bjj white and some blue belts in a ground grappling situation simply because of familiarity, strength and athleticism. But nobody would argue that wrestling is a better approach than bjj for fighting on the ground.

I am not saying that any and all ideas or approaches are good. That is not true in boxing bjj or wing chun but that there is no one right best way or idea or approach in boxing bjj or wing chun. We can see that all martial arts have a great deal of flexibility in expression that allow for a wide range of ideas or approaches.

I know a few grapplers that would argue with your second paragraph since wrestlers do quite well in mma. Wrestling lacks subs and guard but experience shows is a great base for ground and pound.

chaotic2k

05-18-2013, 05:10 AM

I'd say this is true if only looking at their usage in application (thier own individual styles or preferences while fighting). But IMO, the system of WCK (core concepts/principles) is complete and has no reason to evolve regardless of someone's personal skill or preference in fighting. It will only devolve if you change it.

On a side note, curriculms can evolve to suit the needs, but that is another subject apart from the system itself or one's personal evolution of fighting skills/application of the art.

You know what you have a fair point. I get what your saying in terms of keeping the core values the same etc.. I guess i can no longer say im a wing chun man then ;)

I use the concepts but also use other ideas to express them. Funny enough you can find alot of systems share similar ideas. Even as far as BJJ and the use of triangles. For me wing chun has proven to be a great spring board but i feel i need to evolve as a "martial artist" so now wing chun is my slave not the other way round.

GlennR

05-18-2013, 05:14 AM

I've never seen anyone argue this. It is an objective fact directly visible to the eyes of everyone with an internet connection (or a few years in wing chun). Most arguments appear to be about the validity of the different approaches.

Look harder then
Someone saying you are doing it all wrong is basically saying you arent doing it at all.

Im yet to here one of the WSLPBVT chaps go "thats fine what you are doing, we just do it differently".... ive even seen them say in regards to Alan Orr "thats not WC"

Dragonzbane76

05-18-2013, 05:21 AM

I am not saying that any and all ideas or approaches are good. That is not true in boxing bjj or wing chun but that there is no one right best way or idea or approach in boxing bjj or wing chun. We can see that all martial arts have a great deal of flexibility in expression that allow for a wide range of ideas or approaches.

I think the main difference in the arts you listed (boxing, Bjj) and WC or most TCMA in general is that the ones listed are tried and tested MA's. What I mean is that in boxing you really don't have a list of moves for this or that. What works works same in BJJ. WC and a lot of CMA's deal in "theories" and never step out of that realm to try and see if there "theories" work.

I'm not saying some do not, but more of a general blanket statement.

Wayfaring

05-18-2013, 11:07 AM

There are plenty of competitive wrestlers that would destroy bjj white and some blue belts in a ground grappling situation simply because of familiarity, strength and athleticism. But nobody would argue that wrestling is a better approach than bjj for fighting on the ground.

Funny you should bring that up, but that's kind of exactly what they are starting to argue lately. When you add in strikes, and give the competitive wrestler good fundamentals training to avoid submissions. And when BJJ people don't train with striking allowed ever. Nobody is immune to delusion because they train a particular art.

So what's the next logical thing to do? Pull wrestling out of the Olympics. But that's another story.

guy b.

05-18-2013, 11:57 AM

Look harder then
Someone saying you are doing it all wrong is basically saying you arent doing it at all.

Im yet to here one of the WSLPBVT chaps go "thats fine what you are doing, we just do it differently".... ive even seen them say in regards to Alan Orr "thats not WC"

No, arguing that your approach to wing chun is flawed or mistaken is not equivalent to arguing that you are not doing wing chun at all. There are all kinds of crappy wing chun around. The majority of wing chun is very poor in fact, but there is lots of it around.

guy b.

05-18-2013, 12:07 PM

I am not saying that any and all ideas or approaches are good. That is not true in boxing bjj or wing chun but that there is no one right best way or idea or approach in boxing bjj or wing chun. We can see that all martial arts have a great deal of flexibility in expression that allow for a wide range of ideas or approaches.

I don't think it is possible to find a martial arts with such a proscribed curriculum as bjj. You are confusing flexibility of expression in sporting arts like bjj (e.g. type of guard, top game vs bottom game, speed player vs pressure) with flexibility in thinking. You will not find flexibility in thinking in bjj beyond a few whackos like Telles. Once the fundamental principles of bjj are broken it no longer works as bjj. Same goes for wing chun.

I know a few grapplers that would argue with your second paragraph since wrestlers do quite well in mma. Wrestling lacks subs and guard but experience shows is a great base for ground and pound.

Nobody would argue that wrestling is a better approach for fighting on the ground than bjj

Wayfaring

05-18-2013, 01:22 PM

I don't think it is possible to find a martial arts with such a proscribed curriculum as bjj. You are confusing flexibility of expression in sporting arts like bjj (e.g. type of guard, top game vs bottom game, speed player vs pressure) with flexibility in thinking. You will not find flexibility in thinking in bjj beyond a few whackos like Telles. Once the fundamental principles of bjj are broken it no longer works as bjj. Same goes for wing chun.

Depends on the BJJ school. Some are more proscriptive than others. Regarding flexibility you are confused. Many people have advanced the BJJ game to where it is today which is far beyond the levels of competition you saw in the 1990s. Eduardo Telles is one of those - not a "whacko", but TT (Eduardo Telles & Terere) were one of the top competition teams in Brazil for many years. Telles innovative work is the turtle position - legit stuff form there. There are many others like him though - Delariva, MG, Mendes bros, Robson Moura, Eddie Bravo. All the Sambo footlocks get absorbed and integrated. Wrestling gets absorbed, integrated, taught. All the advancements are because people are able to test it in a competitive environment to see what works.

Nobody would argue that wrestling is a better approach for fighting on the ground than bjj

You are clueless. Most BJJ schools teach wrestling as the standup portion of nogi grappling, and judo as the standup portion of gi grappling. But it is entertaining listening to you go on about BJJ, which you know even less about than WCK.

guy b.

05-18-2013, 01:43 PM

Depends on the BJJ school. Some are more proscriptive than others. Regarding flexibility you are confused. Many people have advanced the BJJ game to where it is today which is far beyond the levels of competition you saw in the 1990s. Eduardo Telles is one of those - not a "whacko", but TT (Eduardo Telles & Terere) were one of the top competition teams in Brazil for many years. Telles innovative work is the turtle position - legit stuff form there. There are many others like him though - Delariva, MG, Mendes bros, Robson Moura, Eddie Bravo. All the Sambo footlocks get absorbed and integrated. Wrestling gets absorbed, integrated, taught. All the advancements are because people are able to test it in a competitive environment to see what works.

Bjj is a principle based martial art, as all good ones are. Delariva etc do not break the priciples of bjj. Telles does which is why his changes are devolution rather than evolution; they change the way bjj works for the worse.

You are clueless. Most BJJ schools teach wrestling as the standup portion of nogi grappling, and judo as the standup portion of gi grappling. But it is entertaining listening to you go on about BJJ, which you know even less about than WCK.

Clueless? Lol I could say the same for you big guy. I think you read too many forums.

guy b.

05-18-2013, 01:44 PM

You are clueless. Most BJJ schools teach wrestling as the standup portion of nogi grappling, and judo as the standup portion of gi grappling. But it is entertaining listening to you go on about BJJ, which you know even less about than WCK.

"Nobody would argue that wrestling is a better approach for fighting on the ground than bjj "

Wayfaring

05-18-2013, 01:49 PM

Bjj is a principle based martial art, as all good ones are. Delariva etc do not break the priciples of bjj. Telles does which is why his changes are devolution rather than evolution; they change the way bjj works for the worse.

What principles does Telles break?

guy b.

05-18-2013, 01:54 PM

What principles does Telles break?

If you dont know then you don't know bjj very well. These principles are constantly reinforced and even policed via the ruleset

chaotic2k

05-18-2013, 02:24 PM

Bjj guys have evolved. They use ideas from judo and wrestling etc.. Its because its a martial art that is developed from NHB fights. Wrestling is awsome dont get me wrong. But Real BJJ is forward moving and current. It has a head start. ;)

Wayfaring

05-18-2013, 03:31 PM

If you dont know then you don't know bjj very well. These principles are constantly reinforced and even policed via the ruleset

In other words you are talking out your @$$ and have no clue about what supposed principles Telles breaks. I use his guard all the time and have been taught details of his system by BJJ black belts.

But by all means please enlighten me where I'm going wrong with respect to Telles and BJJ principles.

YouKnowWho

05-18-2013, 04:52 PM

Alot of wing chun i see have no stopping power ...
I will category

- WC, parying mantis, ... use the "machine gun" approach.
- Baji, Chen Taiji, XYLH, ... use the "grenade" approach.
- longfist, CLF, ... use the "riffle" approach.

Vajramusti

05-18-2013, 05:01 PM

I will category

- WC, parying mantis, ... use the "machine gun" approach.
- Baji, Chen Taiji, XYLH, ... use the "grenade" approach.
- longfist, CLF, ... use the "riffle" approach.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Over generalizations at least in the case of wing chun.
With the right training and purpose and when needed- wing chun
can be a machine gun, a rifle or a grenade.

YouKnowWho

05-18-2013, 05:17 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Over generalizations at least in the case of wing chun.
With the right training and purpose and when needed- wing chun
can be a machine gun, a rifle or a grenade.

If you ask a

- longfist guy about "grenade" approach, or
- Baji guy about "machine gun" approach,

he will "honestly" answer that his system doesn't have such training.

If you watch CXW's and Adam Hsu's clips, it takes both of them about 1 second to generate "grenade" type of power for each punch.

http://www.myspace.com/video/chris/cxw-fajin-techniques/330713

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlqwoq_adam-hsu-baji-quan-vol-1_sport

The "grenade" approach will require to borrow force from the ground and compress your body to the maximum before releasing. This kind of power generation just won't be suitable for "machine gun" approach.

We all like to find a wife who is

- beautiful,
- rich, and
- good in bed.

In reality, that perfect girl doesn't exist. If you can have 3 wifes, one is beautiful, one is rich, and one is good in bed, you will have no regret in your life.

GlennR

05-18-2013, 05:55 PM

No, arguing that your approach to wing chun is flawed or mistaken is not equivalent to arguing that you are not doing wing chun at all.

Well make your mind up, the next post you comment "Once the fundamental principles of bjj are broken it no longer works as bjj. Same goes for wing chun. "

Youre basically saying that if you break the rules, youre not doing it, which leads to.......... if you arent doing it my way you arent doing it.

There are all kinds of crappy wing chun around. The majority of wing chun is very poor in fact, but there is lots of it around.

What do you base this statement on?

guy b.

05-19-2013, 01:19 AM

In other words you are talking out your @$$ and have no clue about what supposed principles Telles breaks. I use his guard all the time and have been taught details of his system by BJJ black belts.

But by all means please enlighten me where I'm going wrong with respect to Telles and BJJ principles.

I feel sorry for you being so ignorant of a yet another system.

Think about the rules regarding sweeps and apply to Telles "guard". The competition rules police the principles of bjj.

wingchunIan

05-19-2013, 05:14 AM

guy b.

05-19-2013, 06:06 AM

Well make your mind up, the next post you comment "Once the fundamental principles of bjj are broken it no longer works as bjj. Same goes for wing chun. "

Youre basically saying that if you break the rules, youre not doing it, which leads to.......... if you arent doing it my way you arent doing it.

I don't think anyone would argue that Telles isn't part of bjj. But he breaks the principles of the original art all of the time. He is contributing to the devolution of bjj by doing this. Same goes for wing chun.

What do you base this statement on?

Experience of different wing chun teachers and curricula.

guy b.

05-19-2013, 06:07 AM

Magahales would disagree with you and he was a pretty successful.

Apply simple statistics and common sense. What conclusion do you reach?

JPinAZ

05-19-2013, 08:53 AM

I feel sorry for you being so ignorant of a yet another system.

Think about the rules regarding sweeps and apply to Telles "guard". The competition rules police the principles of bjj.

Jeebus, will you just shut it already troll boy? you obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

Wayfaring, what's your rank in BJJ again? Never mind, he'd just troll anything you say anyway;)

JPinAZ

05-19-2013, 08:59 AM

You know what you have a fair point. I get what your saying in terms of keeping the core values the same etc.. I guess i can no longer say im a wing chun man then ;)

Just curious, why not? What do you do that violates WC principle?

I use the concepts but also use other ideas to express them. Funny enough you can find alot of systems share similar ideas. Even as far as BJJ and the use of triangles. For me wing chun has proven to be a great spring board but i feel i need to evolve as a "martial artist" so now wing chun is my slave not the other way round.

Of course, a lot of systems have similarities. This is because principles are universal.
But back to my point, 'evolving as a martial artist' is separate from the system itself. the whole point of practicing MA's is to evolve your skills in fighting, regardless the approach yeah?

And when you say you use concepts but other ideas to express them, not sure how you mean. By other ideas, are you referring to techniques?

guy b.

05-19-2013, 09:34 AM

Jeebus, will you just shut it already troll boy? you obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

Wayfaring, what's your rank in BJJ again? Never mind, he'd just troll anything you say anyway;)

great argument

Wayfaring

05-19-2013, 09:42 AM

I feel sorry for you being so ignorant of a yet another system.

Think about the rules regarding sweeps and apply to Telles "guard". The competition rules police the principles of bjj.

OK troll boy. I'm thinking about the rules regarding sweeps. And Telles guard. And competition rules. And how Telles may have contributed to what is it you say "the devolution of BJJ".

After doing this I still have no idea WTF you are going on about.

So let's start here:

1) What do you know about Eduardo Telles ? Background, etc.
2) What is Telles best known for in the BJJ world?
3) How did he develop it?
4) What principles is he breaking with it?
5) What competition rules consequences are there?

Since you are feeling sorry for me about my BJJ ignorance, please enlighten me on this topic.

guy b.

05-19-2013, 10:02 AM

OK troll boy. I'm thinking about the rules regarding sweeps. And Telles guard. And competition rules. And how Telles may have contributed to what is it you say "the devolution of BJJ".

After doing this I still have no idea WTF you are going on about.

So let's start here:

1) What do you know about Eduardo Telles ? Background, etc.
2) What is Telles best known for in the BJJ world?
3) How did he develop it?
4) What principles is he breaking with it?
5) What competition rules consequences are there?

Since you are feeling sorry for me about my BJJ ignorance, please enlighten me on this topic.

Lol at your continuing ignorance after I spelled it out for you. Do you even train bjj?

Robinhood

05-19-2013, 10:14 AM

So I'm a little sick of all the bong lap lamer videos around, and wanted to depart from that a little.

One topic near and dear to every WCK practitioner's heart is chi sau. Chi sau of course is about a lot of things, but one main topic that it is about is "connection".

"Connection" is a common thread through many martial arts. In judo (and aikido but that's less real) here's the concept of connection taught as "kuzushi". The clip says aikido but the guy showing it actually has a judo school and also teaches aikido.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwnGBLSFg7s

How do the concepts here relate to WCK? Chi sau?

Good description of sensitivity and internal fly wheel analogy.

If you want to compare to wc chi sau, chi sau is a structured exercise that should help you in a simple way to develop yourself to someday be sensitive and natural in application of self.

Chi sau is not the end, but a beginning stage of sensitivity training, how you use it and progress from it is just a different level of the development stage.

Chi sau is no more than a beginners exercise to sensitivity development, don't dwell on it., it is just a basic learning stage exercise.

chaotic2k

05-19-2013, 10:19 AM

Just curious, why not? What do you do that violates WC principle?

If i wanna bang a nail in a wall, i dont start the action until im close enough to the wall etc. There is a time and place.

I use what works and when you understand the concepts in Wing chun you find you can get away with anything and "claim to be using WC". This would in turn make mike tyson a wing chun fighter... Doesnt fit does it.

Of course, a lot of systems have similarities. This is because principles are universal.
But back to my point, 'evolving as a martial artist' is separate from the system itself. the whole point of practicing MA's is to evolve your skills in fighting, regardless the approach yeah?

Correct.

And when you say you use concepts but other ideas to express them, not sure how you mean. By other ideas, are you referring to techniques?

Boxing hook with connection of wing chun as example. (1st setion of chum kiu, spring on my toes and shoulder tight to chin. elbow connected to waist 1st sec Siu leem tau, forward force still searching from my centre of mass, ability to bob n weave and shoot and sprawl. sinking and springing) all in one technuiqe. very simple but a combo of ideas and styles but WC is there o yes it is ;)

Wayfaring

05-19-2013, 11:00 AM

Lol at your continuing ignorance after I spelled it out for you. Do you even train bjj?

So you don't know the answers to those questions. That's pretty obvious to everyone now.

wingchunIan

05-19-2013, 12:34 PM

Apply simple statistics and common sense. What conclusion do you reach?

Main conclusion I draw is that when your point is completely disproven you don't have the grace to acknowledge it.

guy b.

05-19-2013, 01:35 PM

Main conclusion I draw is that when your point is completely disproven you don't have the grace to acknowledge it.

No need to be petty. Are you arguing that wrestling is a better approach to groundfighting than bjj?

anerlich

05-19-2013, 03:58 PM

Think about the rules regarding sweeps and apply to Telles "guard". The competition rules police the principles of bjj.

As a first stripe brown belt and BJJ referee of five years experience, I can confidently state that you are talking out of your a$$.

Telles regards the turtle position as a guard, in so far as he has reversals and submissions from there, and he refers to some of those reversals as "sweeps", though the BJJ rules do not regard the turtle as a guard and would not give sweep points for what he does from there to put the opponent on their back.

To say that this is "devolutionary" is whackjob stuff. BJJ is about constantly improving position, leading to a submission. Reversing someone from turtle from underneath is positional improvement. Nothing radical or devolutionary in that.

In training or defense, successfully employing Telles' stuff will definitely improve your situation and chances of getting a tap (training) or surviving (defense).

The rules have a lot of weird stuff in them, Their "policing the principles of BJJ" has led to the prevalent long and boring 10 minute battles from 50/50 guard in high level competition and the recent widely publicised Cornelius/Miyao double DQ. Me and most BJJ guys I know think that BJJ can do without those particular principles getting policed. Last comp I reffed at had white belts trying berimbolos. I like the Berimbolo, but I prefer to try to emulate guys that stick to solid basics like Roger Gracie.

No need to be petty. Are you arguing that wrestling is a better approach to groundfighting than bjj?

Pots and kettles with the pettiness. He was actually arguing that you don't know what you are on about, but are too proud or stupid to acknowledge it.

You will not find flexibility in thinking in bjj beyond a few whackos like Telles.

A statement with for which there is a torrent of contrary evidence.

Lol at your continuing ignorance after I spelled it out for you.

Right back at ya.

GlennR

05-19-2013, 04:10 PM

I don't think anyone would argue that Telles isn't part of bjj. But he breaks the principles of the original art all of the time. He is contributing to the devolution of bjj by doing this. Same goes for wing chun.

Mate, thats [B]your[B] opinion........ be it an educated one or not

Experience of different wing chun teachers and curricula.

Thats not enough.

On the post above, anerlich comments on your bjj post, adds his credentials, and basically debunks your ideas.

Simply saying "i have experience", particularly on a forum where there is some very experienced multi-style exponents here, just doesnt cut it....

guy b.

05-19-2013, 04:23 PM

On the post above, anerlich comments on your bjj post, adds his credentials, and basically debunks your ideas

lol, anerlich confirms my ideas

guy b.

05-19-2013, 04:26 PM

Telles regards the turtle position as a guard, in so far as he has reversals and submissions from there, and he refers to some of those reversals as "sweeps", though the BJJ rules do not regard the turtle as a guard and would not give sweep points for what he does from there to put the opponent on their back

You seem to want me to be wrong, but you show explicitly that I am right, lol. Well at least you are honest, unlike some.

Wayfaring

05-19-2013, 04:52 PM

1) What do you know about Eduardo Telles ? Background, etc.
2) What is Telles best known for in the BJJ world?
3) How did he develop it?
4) What principles is he breaking with it?
5) What competition rules consequences are there?

1) Eduardo Telles and Terere formed team TT in Brazil, a top competition team
2) Turtle guard in gi and octopus guard in nogi
3) Terere's tremendous athleticism forced him out of standard BJJ paths to develop effective techniques from inferior positions (like turtle).
4) Working from back exposed
5) His main 2 sweeps from turtle guard don't give you 2 pts for the sweep due to rules, but do advance your position from turtle to side control.

My involvement with Telles turtle guard sequences started about 6 years ago when I was a new blue belt. One tournament I got stuck in turtle for 5 min and lost a close decision never being able to advance. So I started working turtle guard options. They have provided an excellent pathway out of inferior positions for me, in more than one competition since have put me in side control, which I worked from to win. I don't use his octopus guard paths, as I do 10th planet stuff nogi from that position.

Telles innovation from an inferior position advances BJJ, not "devolves" it. He offers legitimate techniques from an inferior position.

As far as losing the 2 points off the sweep, it's really a very small issue in competitive BJJ. It certainly beats going down 4 points from your back getting taken.

Rank is 4 stripe purple belt. I ref tournaments also.

But so glad that all my ignorance of BJJ can be addressed. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

guy b.

05-19-2013, 05:26 PM

sweeps from turtle guard don't give you 2 pts for the sweep due to rules

Quite

so glad that all my ignorance of BJJ can be addressed

No problem. This must be embarrassing for you though given the importance you afford yourself

guy b.

05-19-2013, 05:35 PM

I can't believe Wayfaring has spent so much money on coloured belts yet lacks a basic understanding of the principles of bjj.

anerlich

05-19-2013, 06:23 PM

lol, anerlich confirms my ideas

You seem to want me to be wrong, but you show explicitly that I am right, lol. Well at least you are honest, unlike some.

Um ... no. I think you must have have fallen asleep after forgetting to take your meds while watching a Telles vid on youtube, had a scary nightmare about him (in the wrong lighting he does look a bit like Freddie Kruger), and then woke up trapped in this fantasy.

I think you've shown yourself to be a nut job, both honestly and explicitly.

anerlich

05-19-2013, 06:27 PM

guyb is trolling.

1.5

JPinAZ

05-19-2013, 08:15 PM

I'm putting this guyb trolling a55-hat on ignore list. If everyone here does it, the problem goes away and he will just be trolling himself. ;)

Wayfaring

05-19-2013, 08:46 PM

yeah. @$$h@t troll ignore.

But you have to admit, without guyb we would not have the face dance videos. Those are awesome. grab face, cha cha cha, grab face, nice movement - chi sau, chi sau, grab face, shuffle out the door.

wingchunIan

05-20-2013, 01:54 AM

No need to be petty. Are you arguing that wrestling is a better approach to groundfighting than bjj?

??eh, I wasn't being petty just responding to your post. I just noticed my typo in my original post so maybe the slight mispelling threw you

Roberto Magalhaes, commonly known by Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioners and enthusiasts as “Roleta”, is regarded as one of the All Time Greatest BJJ competitors and the creator of the inverted guard, a position that revolutionized the sport in the 1990′s. 4x World Champion, Roleta earned his Jiu Jitsu black belt training under Carlinhos Gracie in the Gracie Barra academy in Rio de Janeiro, he has since opened his own academy, Roleta BJJ.

4x World Champion (1996, 1997, 1998, 2000);
3x World Silver Medallist (1998 – open weight, 2x 1999 – weight and open weight);
4x Pan American Champion (1996, 1997, 1998, 1999);
Brazilian National Champion (1996)

wingchunIan

05-20-2013, 02:05 AM

Apply simple statistics and common sense. What conclusion do you reach?

We so far have two idividuals being talked about as evolving or revolutionising BJJ. When you consider that up until the early 90's and the advent of UFC it was relatively unknown outside of Brazil and high level practitioners were almost exclusively the Gracie familly the amount of change and revolution is not disimilar to Wing Chun over the same time period following the death of Ip Man and the world wide spread. The major difference between BJJ and Wing Chun is that innovations / evolutions in BJJ are tested in a competition environment and only those that are superior survive.

GlennR

05-20-2013, 02:40 AM

Wayfaring

05-20-2013, 09:44 AM

We so far have two idividuals being talked about as evolving or revolutionising BJJ. When you consider that up until the early 90's and the advent of UFC it was relatively unknown outside of Brazil and high level practitioners were almost exclusively the Gracie familly the amount of change and revolution is not disimilar to Wing Chun over the same time period following the death of Ip Man and the world wide spread. The major difference between BJJ and Wing Chun is that innovations / evolutions in BJJ are tested in a competition environment and only those that are superior survive.

The difference in mindset is flabbergasting. To see genuine innovators of an art viewed as causing it's "devolution" because it plays outside standard tournament rules or possibly may not adhere exactly to the "position before submission" rubric that is taught to white belts to help them avoid trouble?

If that doesn't show you the clueless delusion of your average WCK participant I don't know what does. They see things about 180 degrees opposite of what they are in reality.

That mindset is what is driving WCK towards extinction, not opposition, not technique. People are their own greatest obstacles.

wingchunIan

05-20-2013, 09:55 AM

The difference in mindset is flabbergasting. To see genuine innovators of an art viewed as causing it's "devolution" because it plays outside standard tournament rules or possibly may not adhere exactly to the "position before submission" rubric that is taught to white belts to help them avoid trouble?

If that doesn't show you the clueless delusion of your average WCK participant I don't know what does. They see things about 180 degrees opposite of what they are in reality.

That mindset is what is driving WCK towards extinction, not opposition, not technique. People are their own greatest obstacles.
as you quoted my post, just curious were you agreeing or disagreeing? 'cos I think we're in violent agreement on at least the first paragraph of your post.

Wayfaring

05-20-2013, 10:14 AM

as you quoted my post, just curious were you agreeing or disagreeing? 'cos I think we're in violent agreement on at least the first paragraph of your post.

I completely agree with you. Innovations in BJJ are typically introduced with an opinion of "let's see how it holds up under pressure". Even if they are a non-standard path, judgment on it is withheld until evidence of how it holds up works. People add to their games what works under pressure. Somehow these innovations don't alter the core fundamentals important to the art.

WCK people on the other hand 1st don't accept any additions to their system as that would alter it. Next they look on the surface of things to see whether or not it "looks like WCK". They don't test anything, even their original system they are learning. However, they use compliant drills to delude themselves into thinking they are testing it. And success against the unskilled constitutes absolute proof to them that their system works.

That mindset is the beginning of the death of the art.

Ali. R

05-20-2013, 10:45 AM

Um ... no. I think you must have have fallen asleep after forgetting to take your meds while watching a Telles vid on youtube, had a scary nightmare about him (in the wrong lighting he does look a bit like Freddie Kruger), and then woke up trapped in this fantasy.

I think you've shown yourself to be a nut job, both honestly and explicitly.

You’re a man with a lot of commonsense and wisdom, and I thought that I was the only one that felt this way.

Or- maybe he’d scraped his helmet against the bus door a little harder while being lifted into the vehicle; and as his chin strap pops, which keeps him fanatic and worried that his puny little brain would leak out.

guy b.

05-21-2013, 05:54 PM

guy b.

05-21-2013, 06:03 PM

Wayfaring

05-21-2013, 06:36 PM

Innovation within the principles of the bjj is evolution. Innovation that contradicts these principles is devolution (i.e. it causes the original bjj to lose coherence).

And opinion where you don't even understand the principles is delusion.

Just to fit you in there somewhere. ;)

anerlich

05-21-2013, 09:34 PM

I see you don't do logic

Not a lot of point when you don't do it either

guy b.

05-23-2013, 03:15 PM

Not a lot of point when you don't do it either

Show me where I made an error of logic

guy b.

05-23-2013, 03:16 PM

And opinion where you don't even understand the principles is delusion.

Just to fit you in there somewhere. ;)

I understand the principles very well. You seem to be having trouble though

wingchunIan

05-24-2013, 12:16 AM

two whole threads now devoted to rule changes and their impact on BJJ. Last time I checked this was a Wing Chun forum.

guy b.

05-24-2013, 02:43 PM

two whole threads now devoted to rule changes and their impact on BJJ. Last time I checked this was a Wing Chun forum.

I can't help the pride of trolls who can't admit when they are wrong. I used bjj as an analogy we might both understand since they obviously don't know wing chun. Unfortunately, even after the Gracie principles video was posted, they do not. You can lead a horse to water etc.

Wayfaring

05-26-2013, 07:58 AM

I understand the principles very well. You seem to be having trouble though

It is readily apparent to anyone with grappling experience on this thread that you are completely clueless when it comes to BJJ principles. You may fool someone with no experience, maybe, but not anyone who is higher than a white belt. The logic you are using related to evolution and devolution is indicative that you are a white belt that has taken a couple of grappling lessons, and there learned the mantra of "position before submission". Now you are trying to inappropriately apply them to top level BJJ competitors and professors who have advanced the art and say that they have done exactly the opposite.

It might be different if you could last in a match with the people you are criticizing more than about 15 seconds without being choked out or having something broken off.

So no, you do not understand the principles very well. And yes, after years of experience more than you have, I do understand them.

guy b.

05-26-2013, 08:08 AM

It is readily apparent to anyone with grappling experience on this thread that you are completely clueless when it comes to BJJ principles. You may fool someone with no experience, maybe, but not anyone who is higher than a white belt. The logic you are using related to evolution and devolution is indicative that you are a white belt that has taken a couple of grappling lessons, and there learned the mantra of "position before submission". Now you are trying to inappropriately apply them to top level BJJ competitors and professors who have advanced the art and say that they have done exactly the opposite.

It might be different if you could last in a match with the people you are criticizing more than about 15 seconds without being choked out or having something broken off.

So no, you do not understand the principles very well. And yes, after years of experience more than you have, I do understand them.

The principles of bjj apply to everyone doing bjj. It doesn't matter how many years of experience you have or whether you get away with doing something else. It still contributes to the devolution of bjj.

lol at the arrogance of pigeon holing me based on a few forum posts

Wayfaring

05-26-2013, 08:13 AM

The principles of bjj apply to everyone doing bjj. It doesn't matter how many years of experience you have or whether you get away with doing something else. It still contributes to the devolution of bjj.

lol at the arrogance of pigeon holing me based on a few forum posts

I'm still waiting to hear what you think the "principles of bjj" are that you think are being broken.

I know you can deflect and defer and play word games around how you really are right. You can do everything except express the real life experience you have in this, because it doesn't exist.

Put it this way. I am very certain Eduardo Telles could start from turtle and submit you in any way he chooses.

And yes it's disrespectful to pioneers of the art who advanced the art to say they are devolving the art. They are not. And Rener Gracie would absolutely say the same thing about Telles.

So it boils down to just you again, being clueless on the internet. But I'm sure you're used to that.

guy b.

05-26-2013, 08:18 AM

I'm still waiting to hear what you think the "principles of bjj" are that you think are being broken.

I'm still waiting for lots of things from you. Strangely none of them have appeared

I know you can deflect and defer and play word games around how you really are right. You can do everything except express the real life experience you have in this, because it doesn't exist.

Put it this way. I am very certain Eduardo Telles could start from turtle and submit you in any way he chooses.

And yes it's disrespectful to pioneers of the art who advanced the art to say they are devolving the art. They are not. And Rener Gracie would absolutely say the same thing about Telles.

So it boils down to just you again, being clueless on the internet. But I'm sure you're used to that.

Maybe you should speak about Telles with someone who really knows? There is some pretty widespread non acceptance of the direction he has taken things, simply because it doesn't accord with the principles of bjj.

Wayfaring

05-26-2013, 08:32 AM

Maybe you should speak about Telles with someone who really knows? There is some pretty widespread non acceptance of the direction he has taken things, simply because it doesn't accord with the principles of bjj.

Let's start here. Who is it that you are speaking with about Telles that "really knows"? None of the black belts I work with think his direction is wrong. Every single one of them think that a path out of turtle is highly necessary. As do I and all the higher belts I work with.

Only some joker on the internet thinks differently.

I was awaiting some more explanation and logic, but all I get is a stupid claim and no explanation. It's really really dumb.

JPinAZ

05-26-2013, 11:05 AM

LOL, stop feeding the trolls - You're serving up a guy b buffet!:D
It's clear from his posts he has no idea what he's talking about on WC or BJJ and he would have shared his experience by now if he had any. Stop taking the troll bait, this one's getting fat!

guy b.

05-26-2013, 01:48 PM

Let's start here. Who is it that you are speaking with about Telles that "really knows"? None of the black belts I work with think his direction is wrong. Every single one of them think that a path out of turtle is highly necessary. As do I and all the higher belts I work with.

Only some joker on the internet thinks differently.

I was awaiting some more explanation and logic, but all I get is a stupid claim and no explanation. It's really really dumb.

Please answer my questions and then I will answer yours. Thank you.

Like it or not you are not the bjj police

anerlich

05-26-2013, 02:54 PM

There is some pretty widespread non acceptance of the direction he has taken things, simply because it doesn't accord with the principles of bjj.

Widespread non acceptance [sic]? From whom? Evidence?

guy b.

05-26-2013, 04:53 PM

Widespread non acceptance [sic]? From whom? Evidence?

I wonder if Wayfaring will allow the conversation to move forwards?

Wayfaring

05-26-2013, 06:04 PM

I wonder if Wayfaring will allow the conversation to move forwards?

I wonder if guyb's mom will ever let him out of her basement.

guy b.

05-26-2013, 06:52 PM

I wonder if guyb's mom will ever let him out of her basement.

Projecting again.

Wayfaring

05-27-2013, 07:16 AM

Projecting again.

Sounds like he asked and was told no.

anerlich

05-27-2013, 03:47 PM

I performed a Google search on the following:

eduardo telles principles jiu jitsu

and, surprisingly, was not presented with pages full of black belts slagging off Telles.

About the closest I got to criticism were these:

http://www.aesopian.com/2226/the-basics-are-dead-long-live-the-basics/
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-102710.html
http://riekiyuwana.wordpress.com/2008/09/02/principles-of-brazilian-jiujitsu/
http://reapercrew4life.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/eduardo-telles-bio-bjjheroescom.html

I conclude that either:

1 - There is a conspiracy afoot, with dark side SEO hackers aligned with TT suppressing the flood of Telles criticism by black belts world wide

2 - guy b. is talking out of his @$$

Ockham's razor (the simplest possible explanation is the most likely) leads me towards option 2.

I personally feel that if any modern BJJ position violates "the principles of jiu jitsu", it is the 50/50 guard. IMO BJJ is about achieving a dominant position moving to a submission, rather than one in which both have equal options and opportunities.

That said, I play with 50/50 guard. You have to know what to do if someone wraps you up there. And I have a lot of respect for good 50/50 players like Ryan Hall, even if they sometimes spend 8 minutes of a match latched onto the other guy's leg with nothing happening.

guy b.

05-27-2013, 04:01 PM

I performed a Google search on the following:

eduardo telles principles jiu jitsu

and, surprisingly, was not presented with pages full of black belts slagging off Telles.

About the closest I got to criticism were these:

http://www.aesopian.com/2226/the-basics-are-dead-long-live-the-basics/
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-102710.html
http://riekiyuwana.wordpress.com/2008/09/02/principles-of-brazilian-jiujitsu/
http://reapercrew4life.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/eduardo-telles-bio-bjjheroescom.html

I conclude that either:

1 - There is a conspiracy afoot, with dark side SEO hackers aligned with TT suppressing the flood of Telles criticism by black belts world wide

2 - guy b. is talking out of his @$$

Ockham's razor (the simplest possible explanation is the most likely) leads me towards option 2.

Nice work rocket scientist. Do your efforts to find things out usually stop at a google search?

I personally feel that if any modern BJJ position violates "the principles of jiu jitsu", it is the 50/50 guard. IMO BJJ is about achieving a dominant position moving to a submission, rather than one in which both have equal options and opportunities.

Lots of sport bjj violates the principles of jiu jitsu. Telles just happens to be a glaring example.

That said, I play with 50/50 guard. You have to know what to do if someone wraps you up there. And I have a lot of respect for good 50/50 players like Ryan Hall, even if they sometimes spend 8 minutes of a match latched onto the other guy's leg with nothing happening.

Why would you respect something that is a rarefied sport technique with zero real world applicability?

tc101

05-27-2013, 07:08 PM

Phrases like principles of bjj are so vague and broad so that they lack meaning. If a person cannot be more specific like saying exactly what principle is being violated any discussion will come to yes it is no it isn't.

What precisely is Telles doing that violates what specific principle?

While you are at it maybe you can explain why violating some principle is bad if you beat the other guy.

anerlich

05-27-2013, 10:42 PM

Nice work rocket scientist. Do your efforts to find things out usually stop at a google search?

If there's the evidence you'd claim for numerous black belts worldwide opinions about Telles, I'd expect that to at least come up with something. Wouldn't you?

I asked you for names and references before I went to Google. Still waiting! C'mon, son!

Lots of sport bjj violates the principles of jiu jitsu. Telles just happens to be a glaring example

A glaring example only to you and the legion of imaginary anti-Telles black belts world wide that you can cite but cannot name or provide references to, apparently.

guy b.

05-28-2013, 10:01 AM

guy b.

05-28-2013, 10:01 AM

If there's the evidence you'd claim for numerous black belts worldwide opinions about Telles, I'd expect that to at least come up with something. Wouldn't you?

I asked you for names and references before I went to Google. Still waiting! C'mon, son!

A glaring example only to you and the legion of imaginary anti-Telles black belts world wide that you can cite but cannot name or provide references to, apparently.

I'm still waiting for Wayfaring to answer my question which was asked before his

tc101

05-28-2013, 10:17 AM

You think the principles of bjj are vague? I've never heard that before

I did not say that I said that the phrase is vague. Why don't you tell me what specific principles you think Telles is violating and how what he is doing is violating them?

guy b.

05-28-2013, 12:33 PM

Why don't you tell me what specific principles you think Telles is violating and how what he is doing is violating them?

Because I am waiting for the mma trolls to answer my question which was asked first before I respond to theirs which was asked subsequently

Wayfaring

05-28-2013, 12:50 PM

Because I am waiting for the mma trolls to answer my question which was asked first before I respond to theirs which was asked subsequently

At this point about everyone on the forum is wondering two things:

1) What question?
2) Why do you need to wait to answer?

guy b.

05-28-2013, 01:06 PM

At this point about everyone on the forum is wondering two things:

1) What question?
2) Why do you need to wait to answer?

1. Post a clip of the kind of full contact wing chun that you actually approve of and describe why it is better than the HK wing chun clips of training and the same guys fighting the xing yi guys in China
2. Because that is how conversations work. You don't get to demand answers without answering questions posed to you first

Wayfaring

05-28-2013, 01:26 PM

1. Post a clip of the kind of full contact wing chun that you actually approve of and describe why it is better than the HK wing chun clips of training and the same guys fighting the xing yi guys in China

Nothing to do with thread topic.

However, there is a thread full of WCK fights that is stickied here under "Wing Chun Full Contact Fights". That's what that thread is for. There are plenty of representations of full contact WCK there that are fine. Why is it better than the face dance videos? Because it's real contact, not scaled down and artificial in that it appears more like a dance than fighting.

Now you have no remaining excuses.

2. Because that is how conversations work. You don't get to demand answers without answering questions posed to you first

Not demanding answers. Asking that you back up sketchy claims that you posted, instead of cluttering up my thread on "Connections" with troll poop.

guy b.

05-28-2013, 02:24 PM

Nothing to do with thread topic.

You have been trolling across several threads

There is a thread full of WCK fights that is stickied here under "Wing Chun Full Contact Fights". That's what that thread is for. There are plenty of representations of full contact WCK there that are fine. Why is it better than the face dance videos? Because it's real contact, not scaled down and artificial in that it appears more like a dance than fighting.

Then post one and answer the question

Now you have no remaining excuses.

You haven't posted anything

Not demanding answers. Asking that you back up sketchy claims that you posted

Then back up your own sketchy claims first

Wayfaring

05-28-2013, 02:33 PM

Then post one and answer the question

Pick any one.

Answer is because it's live fighting, not fake dancing. That's why it's better.

Now answer.

guy b.

05-28-2013, 02:39 PM

Pick any one.

Answer is because it's live fighting, not fake dancing. That's why it's better.

Now answer.

still waiting

1. Post a clip of the kind of full contact wing chun that you actually approve of and describe why it is better than the HK wing chun clips of training and the same guys fighting the xing yi guys in China

Wayfaring

05-28-2013, 02:46 PM

still waiting

Oh p1$$ off.

I already provided exactly what you are asking for that you are using as an excuse to avoid questions and provide backup information.

Everyone on this thread knows it now.

However, if there are any remaining doubters, I have posted that guyb can pick any of the videos on the sticky thread in the forum entitled "Wing Chun Full Contact Fights" for his example. I stated that any one of those would be better than the videos he is referencing. I also stated that why they are better is that they represent realistic live energy the same level of which you would find in a self-defense scenario.

You are transparent in your cowardice. You are clueless with respect to the real application of WCK in fighting. And you are dishonest. You lose at the lottery of life.

I have nothing more to discuss with you.

guy b.

05-28-2013, 02:53 PM

Oh p1$$ off.

I already provided exactly what you are asking for that you are using as an excuse to avoid questions and provide backup information.

Everyone on this thread knows it now.

You are transparent in your cowardice. You are clueless with respect to the real application of WCK in fighting. And you are dishonest.

I have nothing more to discuss with you.

You are the one that you will not identify a single clip of wing chun that you are prepared to identify with and defend. Inability to stand for something is the very definition of cowardice.

I for one would love to answer your silly bjj questions because I do not have this kind of fear.

JPinAZ

05-28-2013, 04:25 PM

back to the topic.
I rewatched the OP clip. Fom a simplified WC perspective, conceptually what he is talking about could be viewed as WC's loi lau hoi sung concept. If you loi lau ('receive') the initial attack thru a bridge, your hoi sung ('escort') should, in effect, be disrupting their balance thru manipulation of the COG thru the bridge. Considering of course there is still a bridge.
If not, the second half of the kuit takes over :)

This is what I see when he makes initial contact and then disrupt's the opponent's COG.

JPinAZ

05-28-2013, 04:35 PM

Can you expand on kiu sao and chi kiu? They aren't terms I'm familiar with so it might be that we do the same / similar but call it something else, or it might be something completely different to what I do and if so I'd be interested to understand more.

Sorry I missed this.
They are different methods of bridging and bridge manipulation. The differences between them are typically facing, point of contact on the bridge, given time/space of the engagement, energy on the bridge, inside or outside 'the box', etc.

Here's an article that goes deeper on HFY kiu sau:
http://www.hungfablog.com/2012/02/02/meaning-kui-sau-hung-fa-yi/

For a simple answer on chi kiu, it is a concept that comes out of our Chum Kiu level of training and a method for both traveling along a bridge, as well as distorting the structure, space and/or facing of the opponent in the process.

anerlich

05-28-2013, 10:37 PM

I'm still waiting for Wayfaring to answer my question which was asked before his

That's not much of a reason for not answering my question about the horde of anti-Telles black belts you cited - is there a KFO FIFO question queue or something? your CPU not set up for multitasking? - but I doubt you were ever going to try even if you could.

guy b.

05-29-2013, 04:06 PM

That's not much of a reason for not answering my question about the horde of anti-Telles black belts you cited - is there a KFO FIFO question queue or something? your CPU not set up for multitasking? - but I doubt you were ever going to try even if you could.

You are asking the same question as Wayfaring. It is impossible to answer you without answering him

anerlich

05-29-2013, 07:53 PM

It is impossible to answer you without answering him

OK, well answer him as well then. Not hard, is it?

I'm coming to the conclusion you can't name the black belt Telles haters because they exist only in your imagination.

If your foot's in your mouth and halfway down to your stomach, maybe you shouldn't keep pushing it in further.

guy b.

05-30-2013, 03:40 AM

OK, well answer him as well then. Not hard, is it?

He will have to answer me first because I asked first.

Frost

05-30-2013, 05:01 AM

guy b.

05-30-2013, 01:26 PM

the fact you think that was a fight is very telling, its hard to have a fight where no real conttact is made:)

Contact is made at times when showing is required. Control is exercised at other times because it is good manners. This does not mean that it isn't a fight. It is a real live test of skill. Full contact does not need to be made at all times for other movement to be full power, speed and aliveness.

If it is only a real fight if full contact then hitting with gloves on does not equal a fight. This is why I am keen to see clips of wing chun that the troll contingent approves of. Unfortunately they are too scared to show anything (probably because they know it looks pathetic).

Ali. R

06-19-2013, 10:39 AM

So I'm a little sick of all the bong lap lamer videos around, and wanted to depart from that a little.

One topic near and dear to every WCK practitioner's heart is chi sau. Chi sau of course is about a lot of things, but one main topic that it is about is "connection"

We take connection from a stance point of view, than we'll work our way out to the limbs, and this is why:

But first there’s a big misconception on how we work or develop our stance and connection, it’s not all about if you cannot be pushed from position or out from your stance, it’s how well you could redirect energy to the floor. This way you’re being able to feel and identified when your center of gravity is being taken over consciously and in some cases subconsciously in the heat of battle or in training.

This will help you to appreciate the significant value of having soft hands while developing “structural sensibilities” and the idea of “adjustments” a lot sooner, softer and almost instantly as you develop it as two entities rather than all at once (from leaning forward). We feel that this keeps the hands a lot softer when developing the idea of controlling space through sensitivity; we have the same concepts as everyone else, but just a different path in getting there (good connection).

Take care,