Geometric Mandalas; Bloody WSL Again!

[Paddington]

For a while now I have been watching and following sifu Louison's youtube videos and from an early stage, I noted with interest the geometric mandalas on the walls of his training studio.

The mandala in question looks like this.


http://i40.tinypic.com/14xmbt5.jpg

I actually sent sifu Louison and one of his students a request for info on this mandala and although perhaps not just down to me asking, they did provide a tease of an explanation in their latest and last video in their 'broadcast' series.

In short the diagram contains the 'paths' of each Wing Chun form. So what has WSL got to do with it?

Well, if you watch the video of WSL available here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-nGwcE5B5A&list=PL82464AEBDB4E3727) and fast forward to approximately 8mins16secs, you can begin to understand how to read the above mandala. I reproduce below, in very rushed and hurried manner, the diagram WSL is constructing.


http://i42.tinypic.com/2i7pob6.jpg

I do recommend people watch just before the part I cite too, as WSL tells us what he is referring to and representing on that diagram. Needless to say, in the diagram above C is a human body/center, E the elbow joint and H/W the hand/wrist (from what I can tell). When Hendrik and others talk about 'bows', it is these paths that can be mapped as geometric mandalas.

As shown below you can overlay WSL's diagram quite easily with the more complex geometric mandala. I am not saying that this is the correct place to overlay or that the mandala has to be viewed from this 'top down' perspective.


http://i41.tinypic.com/30iaphh.jpg

So, I am going to have much fun deconstructing this geometric mandala further. When you start labeling the points where lines intersect (bows and bridging points), well, the chess analogy becomes more apparent i.e. consider how chess fans talk about chess and the abbreviations they use.

I say 'bloody WSL again!' because I was not expecting to find some of the answers I was seeking with him! That said, knowing which of WSL's students sifu Louison has trained with, I should have looked at WSL in more depth at a sooner stage!

I just want to say thanks to SKM in particular as I have found his thoughts and pointers regarding the history of the square, triangle and circle in martial arts philosophy, very helpful as I did the mandala that he sent me recently. I also thank sifu Louison and the sifu I rolled with last week for helping me to clarify some of my thoughts here.

Some of this might be old news to a few of you but I post it up anyway as it is new to me and may be new and of use, to others here too. Either way I am really interested to read people's thoughts on these themes, so let me know what you think.

[Paddington]

No problem, I am glad to be of help!

As for myself I am busy mapping on the forms, at least as I know them, and putting on highlights for each movement.

I am having to take the long approach by generating multiple sets based upon the different assumptions one can make about the diagram. Hopefully with time I will hit the 'right' perspectives and interpretations!

[Paddington]

[...] The less obvious and most interesting part about this diagram will hopefully be discussed in adult-like fashion on this forum. :)

Footwork is there too I think. Also you can view it from a different plane and include a z-axis. Anyway, many hours of work here me thinks.

EDIT: They are all too busy arguing in the 'clips threads'! On a more serious note it would be interesting to get their opinions of these themes.

[guy b.]

Footwork is there too I think. Also you can view it from a different plane and include a z-axis. Anyway, many hours of work here me thinks.

EDIT: They are all too busy arguing in the 'clips threads'! On a more serious note it would be interesting to get their opinions of these themes.

What does a diagram add to understanding over doing, feeling and internalising?

[Paddington]

What does a diagram add to understanding over doing, feeling and internalising? (my emphasis)

Bless you!

What do you think guy_b?

[guy b.]

(my emphasis)

Bless you!

What do you think guy_b?

I think it adds less than nothing personally. Probably detrimental.

[Paddington]

I think it adds less than nothing personally. Probably detrimental.

Thanks for sharing your thought.

[guy b.]

Thanks for sharing your thought.

What do you think it adds? I can't see any advantage to looking at diagrams compared to more regular types of training. The possible structural insights they contain are not even that clear and must be fathomed out. They are also open to potential misinterpretation. Much simpler just to be shown.

[Paddington]

What do you think it adds? I can't see any advantage to looking at diagrams compared to more regular types of training. The possible structural insights they contain are not even that clear and must be fathomed out. They are also open to potential misinterpretation. Much simpler just to be shown.

Personally I find diagrams such as this and the analytic process behind them useful. I quite enjoy working things out for mysef and I don't mind making errors and misinterpretations.

I have always found going through such a learning and puzzle solving process, through which one makes errors, helps (me at least) better embed the ideas when shown the 'correct paths'. But anyway, who is to say that I won't find them myself?

[guy b.]

Personally I find diagrams such as this and the analytic process behind them useful. I quite enjoy working things out for mysef and I don't mind making errors and misinterpretations.

I have always found going through such a learning and puzzle solving process, through which one makes errors, helps (me at least) better embed the ideas when shown the 'correct paths'. But anyway, who is to say that I won't find them myself?

You won't know if you found them yourself if all you have is a mandala. You will need someone to tell or show you, even if you are on the right track. For this reason I don't see the point. It doesn't add anything and risks losing a lot. You might as well do sudoku if you want mental stimulation.

[Paddington]

You won't know if you found them yourself if all you have is a mandala. You will need someone to tell or show you, even if you are on the right track. For this reason I don't see the point. It doesn't add anything and risks losing a lot. You might as well do sudoku if you want mental stimulation.

You are entitled to your opinion! If you don't want to look at the shapes and the video and the other sources I allude to, fine by me!

I would, however, politely ask you not to continue posting in this thread, if you have no interest in discussing the themes I raise beyond stating that they are pointless and not worth the time to understand.

Cheers!

[Hendrik]

Great job done!

Continous on the great job!

[Paddington]

Great job done!

Continous on the great job!

I forgot to thank you too for your input regarding bows in the opening post! Thanks!

[Hendrik]

I forgot to thank you too for your input regarding bows in the opening post! Thanks!

No problem. Don't thank me, thank the wck ancestors.

[guy b.]

And you reckon all the closed thinking is in BJJ, huh?

This is all you took from my posts. Seriously?

Bjj is certainly a principle based MA. This is what makes it good.

[Paddington]

With all due respects if you two want to debate another topic please do so via PMs or in another thread. I do not wish to be rude but having your debates spill from other threads into this one, is not something that I would like to see.

I understand why, anerlich, you have picked guy_b up on this point but I would prefer it if you would do me the courtesy, of not taking his bait in this thread. I am sure there are others that may want to discuss the themes I put forwards but I fear they will be put off from discussing due to these debates with guy_b.

[guy b.]

No worries, I won't post on your thread again

[anerlich]

Fair enough. I apologise to you, Paddington. I've deleted my earlier post, others may wish to do the same.

[Mutant]

The functional geometry and structural integrity within wing chun is a very cool aspect of the art. I think its great to play around with the geometrical patterns and mathematics behind it and think its a useful project to interpolate these data points. It can help in overall understanding to analyze in different ways. Good teachers can teach to multiple intelligences and various learning styles. Some people are more hands on, while others visual or conceptual learners... Analyzing things in various ways may spark someone to have a 'light-bulb moment' by making new connections of understanding, so definitely worth while.

[Vajramusti]

The posted mandala is interesting. FWIW-points, lines, triangles and circles
help illustrate many things about wing chun.


Years ago ina n article for the JAMA entitled "Defending the Motherline", I did some illustrations... but could do much more since then
with greater understanding of the art.

[wingchunIan]

If it helps your training then great, if academic research is what floats your boat again great to each their own. Personally i'm not sure I see much benefit in trying to work out how the forms etc fit into a diagram, whoever produced it. Spending that time practising the forms or even analysing your own performance using video etc would IMO be more productive.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't see much value about those diagram either. It's not what you know in your head, it's what you can do with your body that's important.

[Paddington]

If it helps your training then great, if academic research is what floats your boat again great to each their own. Personally i'm not sure I see much benefit in trying to work out how the forms etc fit into a diagram, whoever produced it. Spending that time practising the forms or even analysing your own performance using video etc would IMO be more productive.

On the origin of that mandala; I think the basis of it are very old. Having a large copy on the wall in front of me as I do SLT is very stimulating! As I show, WSL was most probably exposed to it in his training. As I also show, it is a great teaching aid IMO!


I don't see much value about those diagram either. It's not what you know in your head, it's what you can do with your body that's important.

That good old Cartesian mind/body dualism eh? IMO it is a bit iffy to split the mind away from the body particularly given that we are dealing with a Chinese martial art and wing chun at that!

Having been exposed to many different flavours of wing chun I find the theory of it fascinating and I find such diagrams a good reference point to understand what is 'correct' and 'incorrect'. I say that because if one excepts the geometric principles and 'directness' of wing chun, well, when you start graphing stuff out it becomes apparent what is 'correct' and what is not.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Paddington;1230047


That good old Cartesian mind/body dualism eh? IMO it is a bit iffy to split the mind away from the body particularly given that we are dealing with a Chinese martial art and wing chun at that!
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Mind and body are one! Even the slt is called a little idea !
Even with years of practice one can practice the wrong idea
and miss the boat. Understanding connecting triangles in joint coordination strengthens
the structure.
In a recent NYT article in an interview- the great ex coach of the Chicago Bulls and the Lakers drew pictures of dynamic triangles linking the connected positions of 5 players on the floor.


Concepts and practice both are needed for development. Louisson's is one formulation-it's not the only possible one.

[Paddington]

Concepts and practice both are needed for development. Louisson's is one formulation-it's not the only possible one.

When you say one formulation are you referring to the the geometric mandala specifically or sifu Louison's understanding and use of it?

Personally I love diversity and difference though that said investigating such a theme, even in the most rudimentry way, indicates a certain continuity to me. For example, I am not convinced sifu Louison constructed that mandala. Indeed, my initial thoughts are that he was shown it by sifu Ng Chun-hong (http://www.wingchun.hk.com/sifu_intro.htm)?

Have you come across different formulations Joy and if so could you share them in this thread? I certainly would enjoy seeing them!

[k gledhill]

Don't forget the basic 5 lines.

[Paddington]

Great stuff Kev, thanks!

[Vajramusti]

May the " line of force" be with you.
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Luke- I am also your sifu.

[k gledhill]

May the " line of force" be with you.

n.b.( YM needs 2 light sabers )

[Vajramusti]

n.b.( YM needs 2 light sabers )
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For practice two-in usage he knows what to do with one.

[wingchunIan]

Having a large copy on the wall in front of me as I do SLT is very stimulating!

Interesting POV, I focus inwards when doing SNT as to me it is a form of meditation focusing the mind on nothing but relaxing and the position / movement of the elbow. Something requiring analysis in my eye line would be a distraction rather than a help.

[Hendrik]

I think the basis of it are very old. Having a large copy on the wall in front of me as I do SLT is very stimulating!


My two cents for you is:


Gettint creative Using the mandala as a symbolic explanation is ok.

But,
You are violating the practice of slt by doing the above as you describe. The slt practice has to follow "hand issue from heart / mind" instruction strictly. Not the mind is out there in some mandala.

This will get you into trouble in the mind layer. Do not play in this layer or realm with mandala visualization. You can get trap in different states and cause yourself unnecessary trouble.

[Vajramusti]

Two in usage and practice means you don't cut your own hand off.
---------------------
Ip man would know what to do with the other hand.

[Vajramusti]

"You do not have to know where you are going to be headed in the right direction." :) (latest fortune cookie message).
-----------------------------------------------
Discuss rather than clogging up the thread-would nit that be better?

[Paddington]

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Discuss rather than clogging up the thread-would nit that be better?

:rolleyes:

On a more serious note, as an engineer (I seem to remember you telling me you were) how would you model wing chun geometrically?

[Vajramusti]

:rolleyes:

On a more serious note, as an engineer (I seem to remember you telling me you were) how would you model wing chun geometrically?
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This is a 1995 article-old-<http://www.tempewingchun.com/docs/defending_the_motherline.pdf>and I have done much more analysis than this.

I am not an engineer-was turned off by the first two compulsory classes that were required many moons ago-engineering drawing where I had to draw a screw from different angles and in surveying hold survey stick in the Oklahoma sun.

Also- static plane geometry is not enough. "Crazy logic" experimentally used for
redirecting cars/lights based on stimuli can help. Buckminster Fuller's concept of tensigrity(sp?) and the interlocking triangles of the geodesic dome, triangular wedge of the bow of an ice breaking ship is also suggestive(bai jong), the balance of a twirling gyroscope can help, Egyptian pyramids , old time igloos,Buddhist stupas and Mexico's pyramid del sol can be suggestive when working on stability, cross country skiing can point towards the directional coordination of the knees, for elbow motions, harpooning, an American football quarterback's control of the trajectory of a spinning football can give ideas, arches and domes can illustrate synthesis of triangles and circles, plum blossom designs for footwork, the eight sided baqua , the infinity sign- can all give insights for motions and drills and structures.Not arm chair academics-- I do some of these things and try to teach accordingly.
Have had the good fortune of having a sifu who is very analytical as well as practical.
No mind body dualism
Expression of part pf a POV- sharing- not debating. Progressing development via slt, chum kiu, biu gee, mook jong, kwan and bot jam do, varieties of chi sao, lop sao, gor sao, controlled sparring and real experience and much time on the wing chun path open mindedly And no red bull.