You don't teach fighting

[YouKnowWho]

If you teach TCMA but you don't teach fighting, what does that mean?

Without fighting,

- power,
- speed,
- timing,
- opportunity,
- angle,

won't be important. What do we have left in TCMA besides balance? Your thought?

[Drake]

If you teach TCMA but you don't teach fighting, what does that mean?

Without fighting,

- power,
- speed,
- timing,
- opportunity,
- angle,

won't be important. What do we have left in TCMA besides balance? Your thought?

It's about what is deemed important. For some, discipline is more important. For others, it is about helping kids build confidence or physical fitness.

The high and mighty approach that someone knows how to apply TCMA in this day and age has passed. If you want to teach fighting, by all means, it is your school. But don't condemn those who, despite not teaching fighting, may be helping kids develop in different ways.

Not everybody wants to have rooftop duels. I'd even argue that if you do want that, you are basically LARPing and not even realizing it.

[YouKnowWho]

You can apply Taiji "double pulling" and move your hands from your left to your right in the following ways.

Both hands move:

1. horizontally with left palm face up and right palm face down.
2. horizontally with left palm face down and right palm face up.
3. horizontally with both palms face up.
4. horizontally with both palms face down.
5. vertically with left palm face up and right palm face down.
6. vertically with left palm face down and right palm face up.
7. vertically with both palms face up.
8. vertically with both palms face down.

Without considering fighting, all 8 methods can achieve, health, discipline, confidence, fitness. When you consider fighting, there is one one way which is correct.

When fighting is not taught, the guideline is not followed. People may do Taiji "double pulling" in any way they want in the future generation. A "TCMA for health" teach will teach a group of "TCMA for health" students. They will teach more "TCMA for health" students. The fighting of TCMA will soon be lost forever.

I met a girl who added a "lotus flower hands rotation" into her Taiji form. I asked her why and she said that just looked pretty. When she did Taiji "twin peaks to the ears", she bent down her front leg as monkey stance. She is only 5 feet tall, when she bent down her front leg, her double hook punches may only be able to hit the head of a 5 years old. We may see more and more of those if we don't teach "fighting".

[IronWeasel]

The high and mighty approach that someone knows how to apply TCMA in this day and age has passed.


You guys make me appreciate my school more and more, every day.

[YouKnowWho]

You guys make me appreciate my school more and more, every day.

In what way?

[PalmStriker]

There are styles through MA that will always be associated with health and harmony, also distinctions within styles where you can expect all- ready combat content. Back in the old days of China there were only portions of the population that gravitated towards learning a fighting art. Probably why most Countries now do not draft people into active ground military forces. But, many people who do not voluntarily join the military or police forces are interested in some aspect of a MA style for various purposes. I think a style that becomes "popular" will have more non-combatant interest/appeal. Taiji is # 1 . Combatant popularity is probably shared between Karate/TaeKwonDo.

[PalmStriker]

There was a video link posted in a thread not long ago that showed a monk in front of a temple/school demonstrating a form set. The inset lay of the cut slabs was set in a particular pattern that was peculiar to the eye, unconventional. I know that this pattern represents the grounding/footwork of the school style. Geometric concepts are incorporated into calligraphy.

[IronWeasel]

In what way?

I was using Drake's remark to illustrate a general perception of practitioners that post on this forum.

I wasn't referring Master Wang, whose posts are always informatve.

It's just when people literally give up trying to apply martial arts, because they were taught poorly, or their techniques are unrealistic, or there is no emphasis on effective material.

I appreciate that our material and instruction has been proven effective time and time again. It reaffirms that I am not wasting my time with theoretical applications or 'made-up' material.

[Drake]

I was using Drake's remark to illustrate a general perception of practitioners that post on this forum.

I wasn't referring Master Wang, whose posts are always informatve.

It's just when people literally give up trying to apply martial arts, because they were taught poorly, or their techniques are unrealistic, or there is no emphasis on effective material.

I appreciate that our material and instruction has been proven effective time and time again. It reaffirms that I am not wasting my time with theoretical applications or 'made-up' material.

That wasn't what I was saying. But you did prove my point, probably in a way you wouldn't be fond of.

[IronWeasel]

That wasn't what I was saying. But you did prove my point, probably in a way you wouldn't be fond of.



Well, I'm not sure where you're going with that, but I meant to quote your remark out of context of the rest of your post.

[Drake]

Well, I'm not sure where you're going with that, but I meant to quote your remark out of context of the rest of your post.

I don't think I understand what I think you understood when you said you understood what I was saying out of context...

[IronWeasel]

I don't think I understand what I think you understood when you said you understood what I was saying out of context...



I have mixed feelings about ambiguity.

[Robinhood]

If you teach TCMA but you don't teach fighting, what does that mean?

Without fighting,

- power,
- speed,
- timing,
- opportunity,
- angle,

won't be important. What do we have left in TCMA besides balance? Your thought?

Learning how to take care of yourself is what brings most people into MA. But that changes the more you learn, and your reasons for being there change., if they don't change maybe your not learning , or don't what to learn.

[Drake]

This is a good topic to discuss, because there is such difficulty in pinning down the right answer...

fun fun fun...

[MightyB]

This is a good topic to discuss, because there is such difficulty in pinning down the right answer...

fun fun fun...

True enough. It's tough to pin down the "why do you do kung fu?" question.

IMO
TCMA doesn't really hold in a modern paradigm because: There are more efficient means to learn practical self defense, it isn't the best practice if you're just into health, it absolutely will not work in modern full contact combat sports and the aspects that are argued to work are best learned from the combat sport of san shou, and it's debatable as to whether it will work at all on the street because of too many years of compliant training and one step applications vs actual hard sparring using TCMA techniques. (and again the techniques that are argued to work are better learned and practiced in other styles).

So the question is...
Why is it that I still practice TCMA and why do I still enjoy it so much?

[xinyidizi]

True enough. It's tough to pin down the "why do you do kung fu?" question.

IMO
TCMA doesn't really hold in a modern paradigm because: There are more efficient means to learn practical self defense, it isn't the best practice if you're just into health, it absolutely will not work in modern full contact combat sports and the aspects that are argued to work are best learned from the combat sport of san shou, and it's debatable as to whether it will work at all on the street because of too many years of compliant training and one step applications vs actual hard sparring using TCMA techniques. (and again the techniques that are argued to work are better learned and practiced in other styles).

So the question is...
Why is it that I still practice TCMA and why do I still enjoy it so much?

Some people like dancing.

[RenDaHai]

I think we are on the edge of a resurgence of the old ways in all disciplines.

At this point human knowledge has become so vast that we only grasp at the leaves and not the trunk or the root. Then it is impossible how one manifestation is linked to another.

All of you try to label TCMA under one heading that fits into your perception, it has to be functional over a very specific set of circumstances.

However the old way is in learning the essence of things that apply to everything. The underlying relationships.

Look at the way Maths is taught in schools. Taught in such a way that it can be easily examined. Not in a way that makes people understand it. Maths is a language more precise and profound than any other. If you study it as a language it is great and all people can do it. But we don't. We study the specifics.

This happens in all disciplines now. So specific, just so it can be examined. Even at university level.

Now look at Gong Fu and TCMA. The art of the mind understanding the body and the body understanding the mind. Yet so many people want it to be specifically good at a particular type of thing in a very specific circumstance which doesn't happen all that often.

By training the base attributes (strength, flexibility, endurance, eye speed, reaction etc.) and training discipline and the coordination of the senses, structure of the body, forces and how mechanics apply to the body through the principles of TCMA, we can apply this Gong Fu to EVERYTHING, ALL THE TIME. Thus making it worth all the time we pour into it.

Unless you are a soldier or police officer or bouncer with a frequent specific use in mind for TCMA, then surely it is better to make training more general and abstract, not more specific, so it can help you in more areas of your life.

I think this is why some people train TCMA without fighting.

[Drake]

I think we are on the edge of a resurgence of the old ways in all disciplines.

At this point human knowledge has become so vast that we only grasp at the leaves and not the trunk or the root. Then it is impossible how one manifestation is linked to another.

All of you try to label TCMA under one heading that fits into your perception, it has to be functional over a very specific set of circumstances.

However the old way is in learning the essence of things that apply to everything. The underlying relationships.

Look at the way Maths is taught in schools. Taught in such a way that it can be easily examined. Not in a way that makes people understand it. Maths is a language more precise and profound than any other. If you study it as a language it is great and all people can do it. But we don't. We study the specifics.

This happens in all disciplines now. So specific, just so it can be examined. Even at university level.

Now look at Gong Fu and TCMA. The art of the mind understanding the body and the body understanding the mind. Yet so many people want it to be specifically good at a particular type of thing in a very specific circumstance which doesn't happen all that often.

By training the base attributes (strength, flexibility, endurance, eye speed, reaction etc.) and training discipline and the coordination of the senses, structure of the body, forces and how mechanics apply to the body through the principles of TCMA, we can apply this Gong Fu to EVERYTHING, ALL THE TIME. Thus making it worth all the time we pour into it.

Unless you are a soldier or police officer or bouncer with a frequent specific use in mind for TCMA, then surely it is better to make training more general and abstract, not more specific, so it can help you in more areas of your life.

I think this is why some people train TCMA without fighting.

Exactly. And if you are in it for health, fighting probably isn't the best route.

You can get a person (in decent shape, anyway) at a good fighting level in a few months (schedule permitting).

[MightyB]

By training the base attributes (strength, flexibility, endurance, eye speed, reaction etc.) and training discipline and the coordination of the senses, structure of the body, forces and how mechanics apply to the body through the principles of TCMA, we can apply this Gong Fu to EVERYTHING, ALL THE TIME. Thus making it worth all the time we pour into it.


I like this...

[David Jamieson]

If you teach TCMA but you don't teach fighting, what does that mean?

Without fighting,

- power,
- speed,
- timing,
- opportunity,
- angle,

won't be important. What do we have left in TCMA besides balance? Your thought?

No fighting = no martial arts being taught. Quite simply.

[YouKnowWho]

If you don't train fighting, you will miss the "fun" part completely. When your friend visits you, you throw him a pair of gloves/jacket, spar/wrestle for 15 rounds and have fun.

This young Chinese boy will smile in his dream for many nights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPj__T_LP0E

[Miqi]

Huang:
Taijiquan is attracting a lot of people, because of theory and health benefits. But many people doubt that such soft and slow method could work against explosive power...

Zhao Daoxin:
Layman has not developed prejudice, so his first impression can be quite right. Taijiquan has its own form of comparing skill – tui shou. Why not be happy with just this? Not every martial art must be good for real fighting. I remember as in period of Republic of China taijiquan experts explained that the reason for no taijiquan people being able to prove their fighting skill at leitai tournaments is because taijiquan is too profound and it's difficult to master it. Was this some kind of excuse or sincere statement? Taijiquan theory looks great and could be a model for other classical theories of martial art. The main idea is relation between yin and yang. You want to be hard? So start from being as soft as possible, because ultimate softness changes into hardness. You want to be fast? Then start from slowness. This philosophy, that after achieving extreme some attribute changes into its opposite is attracting many people. But did anyone test it? No, if you see what those taijiquan masters, who can demonstrate issuing power are practicing in secret, you will understand what I'm talking about.

**

Full interview in the "Interesting interview" thread in the internal section.

[MightyB]

Huang:
Taijiquan is attracting a lot of people, because of theory and health benefits. But many people doubt that such soft and slow method could work against explosive power...

Zhao Daoxin:
Layman has not developed prejudice, so his first impression can be quite right. Taijiquan has its own form of comparing skill – tui shou. Why not be happy with just this? Not every martial art must be good for real fighting. I remember as in period of Republic of China taijiquan experts explained that the reason for no taijiquan people being able to prove their fighting skill at leitai tournaments is because taijiquan is too profound and it's difficult to master it. Was this some kind of excuse or sincere statement? Taijiquan theory looks great and could be a model for other classical theories of martial art. The main idea is relation between yin and yang. You want to be hard? So start from being as soft as possible, because ultimate softness changes into hardness. You want to be fast? Then start from slowness. This philosophy, that after achieving extreme some attribute changes into its opposite is attracting many people. But did anyone test it? No, if you see what those taijiquan masters, who can demonstrate issuing power are practicing in secret, you will understand what I'm talking about.

**

Full interview in the "Interesting interview" thread in the internal section.

That is a good interview you posted.

My thought on Tai Chi - I think they should try to develop Tai Chi into a throwing wrestling art because their theory and training would work well for that... unfortunately we already have a TCMA throwing art (shuia jiao) that has some good and established training.

[SPJ]

I met a girl who added a "lotus flower hands rotation" into her Taiji form. I asked her why and she said that just looked pretty. When she did Taiji "twin peaks to the ears", she bent down her front leg as monkey stance. She is only 5 feet tall, when she bent down her front leg, her double hook punches may only be able to hit the head of a 5 years old. We may see more and more of those if we don't teach "fighting".

To fight;

It has to be fast and simple or direct. It may not look nice or showy.

Adding extra things to show or look nice is not needed as pointed out.

Old saying

Drawing a snake and adding legs.

No need.

:cool:

[Miqi]

That is a good interview you posted.

My thought on Tai Chi - I think they should try to develop Tai Chi into a throwing wrestling art because their theory and training would work well for that... unfortunately we already have a TCMA throwing art (shuia jiao) that has some good and established training.

Cheers. That is actually only about a quarter of the total interview. As far as I know the rest isn't translated into English. Zhao goes on to say interesting things like, while the Chinese like to think they invented martial arts, every country has its own traditions that are just as old, and that while the Chinese like to think they are the best in the world at martial arts, they are actually closer to the bottom, and only get away with maintaining the lie by hiding their real level from view (sound familiar?) and by avoiding testing their skills on the international stage.

I think that if Wang and Zhao posted this stuff here, now, they'd instantly be denounced as trolls - most especially by the very people who thesedays would claim to be descendents of them. Again, their words apply most significantly, and with dark irony, to most of the people who claim to follow them.

If they were alive today, I suspect both would be easily beaten by amateur MMA fighters. What they recognised were "principles". Whether those "principles" can be professionalised to compete on a world stage... make your own mind up. I say, definitely yes.