What Makes it Kung Fu?

[Kellen Bassette]

If you strip out the forms, style specific drills, traditions, Mandarin/Cantonese and leave only fundamental fighting technique, what, if anything makes it Gong Fu?

All good fighting tends to be similar at the base application level, so what makes a fighter "Chinese?"

Is it the way you do your cross or sidekick, the stances/footwork you apply, your theory/philosophies, the core drills, a particular pattern of attack or defense?

Aside from stylistic preferences, sport rule sets and such; at the base level, what would be the difference from a Chinese, Japanese, Thai or whatever based fighter?

[YouKnowWho]

What Makes it Kung Fu?

Kung Fu to me is like you have trained "certain skill" long enough that you can use it to beat up everybody who want to give you trouble. Whether that "certain skill' is from TCMA or from other MA systems, it won't change the definition of "Kung Fu". "Kung Fu" is not how much you know but how well you can do. The word "style" has no meaning to me.

[PalmStriker]

Chinese Kungfu casts such an expansive umbrella over a wide range of stylistic movement/technique that there can't be a simple answer. With other MA styles there is usually much more similarity and conformity. I think it is much like comparing the cuisine eaten by the practitioners of the different geographical lineages. :D https://www.google.com/search?q=pictures+of+chinese+food%2C+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[rett]

In my experience the term Chinese Gong Fu emphasizes a particular approach to training. As best I understand it, it means learning over a long period through observation, intuition, imitation and constant repetitive practice. A willingness to just do the basic exercises as instructed and surrender (at least for a time) to the teacher's guidance. Many of the most important lessons can't be explained but are transmitted by living together with the teacher, coaches and community of practitioners. It's incredibly important to spend time (weeks, months) on the most basic basics, with things like standing stake, simple movements, and a relaxed attitude both mentally and physically, without a feeling of wanting to rush ahead.

To illustrate the osmosis idea to me, one coach grabbed a student who had never been taught staff and gave him a staff and said play it. The student started playing at the first staff form with some nice shen fa and doing a kind of rendition of the first few moves. From there he had some questions and started getting interested in staff. I think he thought now it was his turn to start on staff but actually the coach was just using him to make a point: See how much he knows just from living here and being around others who are practising?

They may have emphasized this side of it because I was one of the short term students who only stays a month or so, and needs more content-dense instruction and explanations to be able to go home and practise alone. As a short-term residential student you needed to negotiate delicately to make sure they didn't just stand you in the corner, at least it was like that at first, before they were very used to foreign students.

So there's something of a contradiction between teaching long-term residential students, and short-term visitors. It's the long-term residential students who best can learn the "Chinese Gong Fu" way.

I saw their way of handling this contradiction evolve over the years. For instance they would get a new foreign student and have a plan for him to learn quite a lot, but they wouldn't tell him much about the plan. It's like they wanted him to go through the phase of being frustrated and thinking he's getting nothing. Like it was good for him to learn that lesson. (He complained he'd had "enough of that in the army")

I'm just describing the attitudes as best I understood them through a sizable language barrier.

[RenDaHai]

The key to using Kung Fu for Martial arts lies in abstraction.

The ability to isolate from a skill the underlying essence, which can then be applied to any other skill even though this skill is not related to the first.

On a simple level if you have hoed fields all your life, you could use the same skill to wield a sword and cleave a mans head without need of additional training. But more mysteriously extracting a deeper essence from the way you hoe a field you can apply it to calligraphy and write a beautiful character even when you have not doen it before.

In a sense it is a mathematical operation, extracting the underlying relationship between mind and body so that it can be applied across disciplines to any variables.

So the Kung Fu approach to MA is more about developing this intangible intimacy between mind and body and strong base attributes that can be used in myriad ways rather than very specific training.

[Kellen Bassette]

I seen a VCD of Shaolin basics where De Yang said "You will never find Kung Fu in the boxing setting." "These are just inane postures." He was referring to forms and went on to say "the real Kung Fu" is the mastery of the fundamentals, year after year.

I found this interesting, since nowadays, Shaolin Quan is known for its' seemingly unlimited forms.

I agree with the assertions that Gong Fu is as much mental as physical. Without the proper mindset applying Gong Fu is nearly impossible. I'm a believer in "Gong Fu everything," you can drag yourself up the stairs or run up them. You can bend down to pick something up, or you can twist into the rest stance, drop into a kneeling stance, use your gung bu as if you were seizing the leg, ect....

[SeaWarrior]

I think anything that is kung fu, is not based on any techniques or styles. I think what matters more than anything is the philosophy behind the MA. How you think when you fight and what purpose you have.

[bawang]

ask, "why am i so obsessed with kung fu? what do i want from kung fu?"

if kung fu is just kickboxing, what does that mean? why cant kung fu be kickboxing? why kung fu must not be kickboxing? what is so terrible about kickboxing?






so what makes a fighter "Chinese?"



what makes a fighter "black"?

[Kellen Bassette]

ask, "why am i so obsessed with kung fu? what do i want from kung fu?"

For me it was the flow of good Kung Fu. TCMA, when done well, has fluidity not replicated in other martial arts. That's what attracted me to the Chinese arts, to begin with.



if kung fu is just kickboxing, what does that mean? why cant kung fu be kickboxing? why kung fu must not be kickboxing? what is so terrible about kickboxing?

I used to dislike kick boxing because I felt it was just TMA watered down. Now I love kick boxing and feel like it's the TMA that have been watered down.






what makes a fighter "black"?

I half expected that, lol. I think you know I meant derived from Chinese martial arts.

[Lucas]

its all about the weapons baby!!!

http://www.wudang-kungfu.com/images/forum/weapon_tu_01.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

It is what you make it. for everyone it is different.

simple answer that is hard to understand.

In all MA's there are qualities that are almost universal. Kung fu is just a name like any other MA's name. It was my induction into the MA's world therefore it holds a place above many others. That's my reason.

[bawang]

I used to dislike kick boxing because I felt it was just TMA watered down. Now I love kick boxing and feel like it's the TMA that have been watered down.


you didnt answer the question.

what is wrong with white boxing, white kickboxing, white wrestling? why do some white martial artists look down on their own culture and tradition?

[Kellen Bassette]

you didnt answer the question.

what is wrong with white boxing, white kickboxing, white wrestling? why do some white martial artists look down on their own culture and tradition?

I think it's the exotic aspect that appeals to a lot of westerners; and the complexity. You get to be part of some "elite fraternity," learn ancient secrets, know what other don't know. It fulfills a lot of fantasies.

Boxing, kick boxing and wrestling is simple, and primitive. It's accessible to the everyone. Perhaps that is why pro wrestling is so much more popular than real wrestling. It plays to white trash fantasies. :cool:

[bawang]

I think it's the exotic aspect that appeals to a lot of westerners; and the complexity. You get to be part of some "elite fraternity," learn ancient secrets, know what other don't know. It fulfills a lot of fantasies.

Boxing, kick boxing and wrestling is simple, and prmitive. It's accessible to the everyone. Perhaps that is why pro wrestling is so much more popular than real wrestling. It plays to white trash fantasies. :cool:

here is my opinion.


the cultural annihilation of the old european immigrant groups into order to blend in white america. people long for culture with real history and roots. american pop culture is manufactured and disposable.

modern sports only cares about winning. obsession with winning takes to an extreme, and winning becomes a science. american martial arts is extremely hom0genized, organized, sanitized, institutionalized.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXWEhPK90Uw
cold, callous, efficient, mechanical, mathmatically perfect, to the point.

compared to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xO23hNZyTzE#t=431s
vibrant, full of life, spirit, love. history, culture, heritage, soul. chaotic, REAL and HUMAN.

[Kellen Bassette]

Possibly...I've always felt that white America has a cultural identity crisis. "White" used to be a whole lot of very diverse cultures, most of the old roots have been lost as English, French, German, Italian, Polish, ect. all began living together.

We are seeing different sub cultures evolve, metropolitan, sub urban, southern, ect...but with no real roots or history...it creates a void...

[bawang]

We are seeing different sub cultures evolve, metropolitan, sub urban, southern, ect...but with no real roots or history...it creates a void...

in america you are defined by your outer appearance. so its no surprise that kung fu is also judged by its outer appearance. but its whats inside that counts.



Boxing, kick boxing and wrestling is simple, and primitive. It's accessible to the everyone. Perhaps that is why pro wrestling is so much more popular than real wrestling. It plays to white trash fantasies. :cool:

kung fu is the most simple and primitive martial art in the world.

[Kellen Bassette]

in america you are defined by your outer appearance. so its no surprise that kung fu is also judged by its outer appearance. but its whats inside that counts.


So which is the greater evil? The West stealing Eastern culture, or the worldwide phenomenon of people willingly replacing their indigenous traditions with western fashion and pop culture?



why shouldnt fighting be simple and primitive?

Fighting is simple and primitive. But it looks cooler in the movies.

[bawang]

So which is the greater evil? The West stealing Eastern culture, or the worldwide phenomenon of people willingly replacing their indigenous traditions with western fashion and pop culture?


its a facade. people around the world can drop that mask in an instant, just like the time of the assyrians, the persians, the greeks, the romans.

[Kellen Bassette]

wearing a suit and tie and watching tv isnt the same as forsaking your language, history, and knowledge of self.

Does this mean I need to learn French and start fur trading again? I'm actually down for the beaver trapping....:cool:

[Kellen Bassette]

its a facade. people around the world can drop that mask in an instant, just like the time of the assyrians, the persians, the greeks, the romans.

I don't know...it is today, but it only takes one generation, two tops, to lose it all. Most Americans of European decent have little to no connection with their heritage.

[bawang]

Does this mean I need to learn French and start fur trading again? I'm actually down for the beaver trapping....:cool:


one of the postures of a french poleaxe manual is the prayer posture, it showed a french knight kneeling before his poleaxe praying to the virgin mary.

every time i see a renaisance revival video on youtube, i am reminded that they never kneel and pray in front of their weapons before and after practice.

[TenTigers]

I think one of the main things that separates Gung-Fu from other arts such as Japanese Karate, Okinawan Karate, and Korean TKD,TSD< etc is that Gung-Fu has many different methods of issueing power, long short, whipping, hard, soft, shocking, sticking, coiling, etc.
Put this into Japanes Karate, and suddenly their art changes.
Why do you think that the higher Katas that resemble TCMA on the outside, still look so different? Because they only have the skin and hair, and not the "internals'
"Internals," meaning the different body methods of generating power, mechanics, not ch'i-balls.

[bawang]

I don't know...it is today, but it only takes one generation, two tops, to lose it all. Most Americans of European decent have little to no connection with their heritage.

more than 40% of german and italian immigrants returned to their countries.

[Kellen Bassette]

Why do you think that the higher Katas that resemble TCMA on the outside, still look so different?

I've thought about this often. I think a lot of it has to do with the method of linking techniques/movements/transitions. Kung Fu utilizes what I call "natural movement," letting the next motion be what the body naturally want do in a given position, with energy being delivered to a certain direction.

This "natural movement," makes the next motion the more logical/economical one, rather than a random technique or redirection of energy.

[bawang]

I've thought about this often. I think a lot of it has to do with the method of linking techniques/movements/transitions. Kung Fu utilizes what I call "natural movement," letting the next motion be what the body naturally want do in a given position, with energy being delivered to a certain direction.

This "natural movement," makes the next motion the more logical/economical one, rather than a random technique or redirection of energy.

karate wants to sell itself as a japanese martial art, so it mimicks kobudo movements. but kobudo movements are ritualized and not meant for fighting.

[Kellen Bassette]

more than 40% of german and italian immigrants returned to their countries.

But how much real connection to the motherland do the 2nd generation descendents of the immigrants that stayed still have?

[bawang]

But how much real connection to the motherland do the 2nd generation descendents of the immigrants that stayed still have?


how much real connection do the fat nerds swinging zweihanders have to the landschnekt?

[RenDaHai]

how much real connection do the fat nerds swinging zweihanders have to the landschnekt?

America already has its traditional martial culture. Guns.

By the time a lot of people started coming to America guns were already the primary weapon. At this point in Europe though we had guns too there were still a lot of different styles of fencing and fencing cultures that were kept up. I am sure in early America they kept up the fencing too, but guns had already become a personal weapon.

America has managed to maintain this culture of guns in a way like no other place in the world.

[rett]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xO23hNZyTzE#t=431s
vibrant, full of life, spirit, love. history, culture, heritage, soul. chaotic, REAL and HUMAN.

Good point. Here's the vibrant, throbbing, fleshgnawing heart of Northern Europe which emerges when you peel away the USA overlay. Includes a short demonstration of Swedish kungfu, unfortunately mostly grappling and no rallarsvingar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWU0CGfj-SU

[Kellen Bassette]

America already has its traditional martial culture. Guns.

By the time a lot of people started coming to America guns were already the primary weapon. At this point in Europe though we had guns too there were still a lot of different styles of fencing and fencing cultures that were kept up. I am sure in early America they kept up the fencing too, but guns had already become a personal weapon.

America has managed to maintain this culture of guns in a way like no other place in the world.

This is true; and in this case we have maintained our culture. The majority of rural America is armed. Hunting and shooting is a way of life where I'm from, as much as any other tradition here.

[MightyB]

forms make it kung fu. Lots and lots of forms. :D

[MightyB]

Perhaps that is why pro wrestling is so much more popular than real wrestling. It plays to white trash fantasies. :cool:

Hey now - don't tell that to us Judo guys who favor the Hayastan flavour.

It's a little known fact that Lebell and Gokor require all their black belts to sport either a mullet or skullet depending on their follicle aptitude (woman can wear the ever popular reverse mullet).

[Shaolin Rasta]

Strictly speaking, what makes it "kung fu" is the level of skill that rises to intrinsic perfection after long time of training. That is the real actual meaning of the words "kung fu". "Kung fu" is not a martial art, is not even strictly Chinese, per se, except for being Chinese language. It's a concept describing uncanny skill obtained thru much repeated hard work. Not even exclusive to martial arts. So if you want to be absolutely correct about the term you are using, that is the only thing that makes something "kung fu". See what I'm sayin?

[rett]

Strictly speaking, what makes it "kung fu" is the level of skill that rises to intrinsic perfection after long time of training. That is the real actual meaning of the words "kung fu". "Kung fu" is not a martial art, is not even strictly Chinese, per se, except for being Chinese language. It's a concept describing uncanny skill obtained thru much repeated hard work. Not even exclusive to martial arts. So if you want to be absolutely correct about the term you are using, that is the only thing that makes something "kung fu". See what I'm sayin?

Makes sense. I remember looking at some wood carvings and the lady selling them praised them by saying "hao gongfu!"

There was also a Steven Chow movie where he does a bunch of trick shots in billiards and the onlookers say "hao gongfu"

[Shaolin Rasta]

Right! See, that is the actual definition of "gung fu". But, to be fair, I know Kellen is using the term to mean "Chinese martial arts", probably. That is common usage of the term here in the west. Hell, this very forum & magazine uses the term because more people relate to the term here.
To get to Kellen's original question though, I think it is, obviously, meaning "of Chinese origin or development", in the same way that "tae kwon do" implies automatically Korean origin and so forth. The fluidity of it was mentioned. Circular movements more so than hard, linear movement. The in depth systems that mimic animal movements is a uniquely "kung fu" thing as opposed to having, say, a tiger claw hand position or technique or two. I think at its core, "kung fu" in the common western sense implies automatically a Chinese art.
My late shizu used to tell us young bucks that the distinguishing thing about Chinese martial arts is specialization. Whole systems based on specialization, especially in animal form boxings.

[GeneChing]

It's got qi (http://www.martialartsmart.com/95-036k.html).

:cool:

[David Jamieson]

Kung fu, to have Kung Fu is to have skill and ability in a given discipline.

To have Kung Fu in martial arts cn be interpreted in a couple of ways, but in my perspective:

You are versed in striking, evading, throwing and kicking. As well as these, you are taught classical weapons in their various forms. Bladed, blunt, flexible an doubled. Further to this, inward work is part and parcel as well, zen or Chan meditation is part to shaolin kung fu in most instances.

Finally, medical knowledge on some level. I myself am a trained first responder and understand massage and am versed in Tui Nah.

To have Kung Fu in Chinese martial arts therefore means:

1. You have the will to fight if circumstance necessitates that.
2. You have an ability to aid others through your efforts in practice.
3. You have an ability to forge a better person from yourself through continued practice upon your body and mind.
4. You can physically and martially handle the better part of the hoi polloi.

[Shaolin Rasta]

It's got qi (http://www.martialartsmart.com/95-036k.html).

:cool:

Ahh, shaolin bredren, you have summed it up nicely! (and plugged a t-shirt!) You da man!

[GeneChing]

Looking forward to seeing ya, Shaolin Rasta. Less than two weeks out... (http://www.tigerclawelite.com/)

Woah, was that another plug? Ima on FIYAH!

[SPJ]

What Makes it Kung Fu?

Kung Fu to me is like you have trained "certain skill" long enough that you can use it to beat up everybody who want to give you trouble. Whether that "certain skill' is from TCMA or from other MA systems, it won't change the definition of "Kung Fu". "Kung Fu" is not how much you know but how well you can do. The word "style" has no meaning to me.

Agreed mostly.

Style is a preferred core set of skills to solve common fighting problems or senario.


:)

[MightyB]

"Kung Fu" is the perfect name for the traditional art.

[bawang]

America already has its traditional martial culture. Guns.

By the time a lot of people started coming to America guns were already the primary weapon. At this point in Europe though we had guns too there were still a lot of different styles of fencing and fencing cultures that were kept up. I am sure in early America they kept up the fencing too, but guns had already become a personal weapon.

America has managed to maintain this culture of guns in a way like no other place in the world.

i feel a lot of people treat guns like toys. i dont think its a martial culture.

when u kiss the gun, and kneel before your rifle praying, then its a martial culture.

[Lucas]

ever been to texas?

[MightyB]

Head north and crash a family reunion now that you're in Michigan.

[bawang]

ever been to texas?

noe. i hear they cook and eat the flesh of black peoples like in that apocalypse movie. so im scares

Head north and crash a family reunion now that you're in Michigan.

wat do u mean man i dont understans im scare

[David Jamieson]

i feel a lot of people treat guns like toys. i dont think its a martial culture.

when u kiss the gun, and kneel before your rifle praying, then its a martial culture.

I would say that is more of misplaced religious feelings towards something you are doing and those feelings and actions are drawn out of ignorance to the real purpose.

The real purpose being that life is not what you believe in, it is what happens around you all the time and how you participate in the world you live in. Having said that, fighting, is a particular set of skills guided by a will to do it. Fighting can be done without meaning such as bar fights etc. Meaningless cok rubbing really with no positive outcome available most if not all of the time. More revealing of the base qualities of the nature of men and women.

Then there is meaning that is driven by purpose. Ending a crime, helping someone being assaulted, serving in war or as a police officer. All very real and cut and dried places you need to work the discipline of martial arts.

Being enthusiastic is one thing, becoming an enthusiast for the sake of it is in my opinion a reflection of a weak construct being formed in the mind. Rather than looking at something for what it really is, the fantasy of what is desired is projected onto it.

[bawang]

Being enthusiastic is one thing, becoming an enthusiast for the sake of it is in my opinion a reflection of a weak construct being formed in the mind. Rather than looking at something for what it really is, the fantasy of what is desired is projected onto it.

so if you bow down to a katana, its culture. if you bow down to a machine gun thats 10000 times more powerful than a katana, you are just vain and have fantasy.

guns were considered sacred divine instruments in kung fu. they have their own gun spirit just like a sword. if you dont respect the gun spirit it will jam or explode.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think one of the main things that separates Gung-Fu from other arts such as Japanese Karate, Okinawan Karate, and Korean TKD,TSD< etc is that Gung-Fu has many different methods of issueing power, long short, whipping, hard, soft, shocking, sticking, coiling, etc.
Put this into Japanes Karate, and suddenly their art changes.
Why do you think that the higher Katas that resemble TCMA on the outside, still look so different? Because they only have the skin and hair, and not the "internals'
"Internals," meaning the different body methods of generating power, mechanics, not ch'i-balls.

This.
Honestly, culture aside ( and that is THE issue), what makes kung fu, kung fu is what is unique about it and that is what Rik wrote above.

[Kellen Bassette]

To get to Kellen's original question though, I think it is, obviously, meaning "of Chinese origin or development",

This is, of course, what I meant. The colloquial usage of the term, in the west; not the literal translation.

[Kellen Bassette]

i feel a lot of people treat guns like toys. i dont think its a martial culture.

when u kiss the gun, and kneel before your rifle praying, then its a martial culture.

Then I certainly know some folks who are very into martial culture when it comes to guns...There are plenty of gun fanatics every bit as zealous and borderline religious about their passion as the most dedicated martial artists.

[David Jamieson]

so if you bow down to a katana, its culture. if you bow down to a machine gun thats 10000 times more powerful than a katana, you are just vain and have fantasy.

guns were considered sacred divine instruments in kung fu. they have their own gun spirit just like a sword. if you dont respect the gun spirit it will jam or explode.

If you bow down to inanimate objects, you have issues.

A gun is a machine, a sword is an implement, there is nothing worth applying religiously or culturally to them as anything more than tools for doing killing with. That is all they are. Devices, invented to inflict pain and cause death.

Culture? That's...just weird and only a little misguided. If someone considers inanimate objects divine in any way, they are better off getting some counseling or therapy.

[wenshu]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/21cc26660499f6afded10e3578592a1e/tumblr_mn3kx5p52N1s9t1uwo1_400.jpg

[Golden Arms]

I think one of the main things that separates Gung-Fu from other arts such as Japanese Karate, Okinawan Karate, and Korean TKD,TSD< etc is that Gung-Fu has many different methods of issueing power, long short, whipping, hard, soft, shocking, sticking, coiling, etc.
Put this into Japanes Karate, and suddenly their art changes.
Why do you think that the higher Katas that resemble TCMA on the outside, still look so different? Because they only have the skin and hair, and not the "internals'
"Internals," meaning the different body methods of generating power, mechanics, not ch'i-balls.

I am not sure that this is unique to only Chinese martial arts, but this is what makes Kung Fu/CMA different from the arts that do not teach this information/skill set. In some cases this is what makes Chinese arts inferior to other arts as well, in other cases this is what gives them the potential to be superior. It all depends on what engine is used, how it is put to use, and how good the tools and strategies that go along with all of this are and how well they integrate into the big picture.

[MightyB]

http://saint-bartholomew.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Gun-Priest.jpg

[Kellen Bassette]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/reapermen/internet%20pics/HolyHandGrenade.jpg

[bawang]

If you bow down to inanimate objects, you have issues.

A gun is a machine, a sword is an implement, there is nothing worth applying religiously or culturally to them as anything more than tools for doing killing with. That is all they are. Devices, invented to inflict pain and cause death.

Culture? That's...just weird and only a little misguided. If someone considers inanimate objects divine in any way, they are better off getting some counseling or therapy.


sounds like real kung fu is too hardcore for u bro


Then I certainly know some folks who are very into martial culture when it comes to guns...There are plenty of gun fanatics every bit as zealous and borderline religious about their passion as the most dedicated martial artists.

they sound like very strong warriors who not afraid anything, bomb the brown peoples and shoot milk from penus

[Lucas]

"This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will...
My rifle and I know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, or the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...
My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...
Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and I are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life.
So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!"

[bawang]

gun kata meditation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BLycJmev8UM#t=179s

[YouKnowWho]

"My rifle and I ... "

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=my+riffle%2c+my+ponny%2c+and+me&view=detail&mid=20B2F5B42C4A6B2BFB7220B2F5B42C4A6B2BFB72&first=0&FORM=NVPFVR

[Kellen Bassette]

they sound like very strong warriors who not afraid anything, bomb the brown peoples and shoot milk from penus

They don't only bomb brown people, but people of any race or color that would kill the brown people, without their permission. Including other brown people.

[Lucas]

I think one of the major things that does separate one martial art from the next are the nuances with how each style trains their bodies to do the same techniques. It's in these ingrained responses and actions that are imbued to the fighter through long years of continual practice, combined with the particular type of conditioning that you do, that will determine how fast, how hard, how soon, and how long a person will be able to do anything.

for instance look at this video at 4:00 and again at 6:00 and you'll see what I mean when you analyze the results. There's more than just these two guys, but these guys are doing the same technique, with roughly the same body types, but with glaringly different results. Basically the same kick, delivered almost the same way, but not exactly. Relatively the same speed, but the amount of force difference is staggering. Could it be argued that he's just a better kicker? Sure, but that's the whole point right? His technique is slightly different in posture and his posting foot during the kick. His style gave him more power in that particular instance between those two men. However the mt fighter had more control and was back in guard faster and steadier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnu94B6Edrs

I know I didn't use any gongfu in my example, but this video was convenient and the second roundhouse video I found and I'm lazy. In my opinion however, it's also part of the reason why gongfu is gongfu, karate is karate, muay thai is muay thai, etc. aside from the more spiritual and cultural trappings.

[PalmStriker]

America already has its traditional martial culture. Guns.

By the time a lot of people started coming to America guns were already the primary weapon. At this point in Europe though we had guns too there were still a lot of different styles of fencing and fencing cultures that were kept up. I am sure in early America they kept up the fencing too, but guns had already become a personal weapon.

America has managed to maintain this culture of guns in a way like no other place in the world.
The early invaders arriving on ships to the land of The People found tomahawks to be a big problem. :D:):D https://www.google.com/search?q=pictures+of+tomahawks&client=firefox-a&hs=KGh&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=oEacUaK6H8bmyQHJjYDwDA&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1440&bih=807

[Lucas]

don't forget organized forest warfare! but in the end the black powder and the coal won. the great beast of industrialization came to ruin us all

[PalmStriker]

TCMA has the coolest names for forms. My modified hunting crane set is based on: Dragon rests on Mountain, Dragon returns to Earth, and Dragon crosses Lake. :) https://www.google.com/search?q=pictures+of+cranes,+kung+fu&client=firefox-a&hs=Gnh&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=mk6cUd-wMsKsyAHFioCQAQ&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1440&bih=807#imgrc=A6ZEz94nmmMCLM%3A%3BoTEFfOwuVjMfUM%3 Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fttcas.org%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2013%252F03%252FCrane.jpg% 3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fttcas.org%252Fkung-fu%252F%3B426%3B640

[rett]

If you bow down to inanimate objects, you have issues.

A gun is a machine, a sword is an implement, there is nothing worth applying religiously or culturally to them as anything more than tools for doing killing with. That is all they are. Devices, invented to inflict pain and cause death.

Culture? That's...just weird and only a little misguided. If someone considers inanimate objects divine in any way, they are better off getting some counseling or therapy.

The crusaders and knights who prayed before their weapons were brainwashed murderous fanatics. Like the Japanese in World War Two. Cruel sadistic indoctrinated soldiers who gave their lives to the emperor, tormented prisoners, and bayonetted pregnant women.

Whether that's "traditional and authentic" or not, I oppose it. Sure, it made them great warriors ready to throw away their lives. I still don't respect it.

To me praying to a weapon reeks of that kind of fanaticism. On the other hand if someone respects their weapon because of its power, and reflects on the ethical responsibility that comes from handling it, that would be a good thing. Even if it's just a baton or can of peppar spray.

[Kellen Bassette]

TCMA has the coolest names for forms.

This fact is indisputable.

[bawang]

The crusaders and knights who prayed before their weapons were brainwashed murderous fanatics. Like the Japanese in World War Two. Cruel sadistic indoctrinated soldiers who gave their lives to the emperor, tormented prisoners, and bayonetted pregnant women.


thats why u will never find the real kung fu.

[pateticorecords]

America already has its traditional martial culture. Guns.

By the time a lot of people started coming to America guns were already the primary weapon. At this point in Europe though we had guns too there were still a lot of different styles of fencing and fencing cultures that were kept up. I am sure in early America they kept up the fencing too, but guns had already become a personal weapon.

America has managed to maintain this culture of guns in a way like no other place in the world.

YUP, and a gun in the right hand trumps any martial arts...lol

[bawang]

YUP, and a gun in the right hand trumps any martial arts...lol

gun is martial art.

swinging a deformed retarded looking cartoon tinfoil sword is not martial art. its gaytial art. you train to be gay.

[Jimbo]

When the Portuguese originally introduced firearms into Japan in the 1530s, it was incorporated by the samurai as one of their martial arts, which they called Hojutsu, or "fire art" (I'm sure this name will bring out the inevitable 'ho' jokes). And although it eventually became obsolete as a result of Japan's later isolation, Hojutsu became one of the 'ancient' martial arts of the samurai. Those who incorporated it at the time were quick to gain the advantage over those clans who didn't.

So it's not only an American phenomenon.

[Kellen Bassette]

So it's not only an American phenomenon.

I don't know who started it and I don't give a ****. The one thing I do know is that we did it harder, we did it faster, and we definitely did it with more love, baby. You can't take that away from us. ~ Stevo

[bawang]

When the Portuguese originally introduced firearms into Japan in the 1530s, it was incorporated by the samurai as one of their martial arts, which they called Hojutsu, or "fire art" (I'm sure this name will bring out the inevitable 'ho' jokes). And although it eventually became obsolete as a result of Japan's later isolation, Hojutsu became one of the 'ancient' martial arts of the samurai. Those who incorporated it at the time were quick to gain the advantage over those clans who didn't.

So it's not only an American phenomenon.

triple barrel pole cannon is still practiced by martial artists in fujian. its also part of village festivals.

[Lucas]

i think the americans have taken it to the point that the american civilian population would defeat any other civilian population in a 10k on 10k death match of randomly selected individuals across the country that are allowed to bring any weapon that they own at the time of random selection. strictly based off of the ammount of fire arms we would bring to the table in that fight.

here is our mascott

http://aattp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Yosemite-Sam-warner-brothers-animation-30976315-800-766.jpg

[bawang]

when i watch iraq war footage, i shoot milk from penus.

[No_Know]

Taking away forms and stuff what makes Kung-Fu Kung-Fu might be the development of secondary and other back-up muscles, through varied movements other than those used in actual fighting.

No_Know

[David Jamieson]

sounds like real kung fu is too hardcore for u bro If you think so, it would seem lost to you completely.

The fruitcakery isn't what makes Kung Fu , Kung Fu.
Kung Fu exists without all the stupid trappings wrapped onto it.

People are violent. Violence can be dealt with vis a vis martial arts development. Kung Fu practice, through teh hard work and progressive understanding will bring us to a place of knowing. KNowing will bring us to a place of testing. Events unfolding bring us to a place of doing.

Bowing to an altar, a blade, a person, etc are all external trappings and have veritably nothing to do with actually development of one's Kung Fu. however, if a person lacks simple courtesy, then these trappings can be used to inculcate courtesy and manners. Etiquette is important too because who wants to teach a little jerkwad and who wants to learn from an ass hat?

Not that it can't be done, but I could think of better ways to find the same thing without dealing with the religiosity or queer mindedness of others.

[MightyB]

Kung Fu exists without all the stupid trappings wrapped onto it.

People are violent. Violence can be dealt with vis a vis martial arts development. Kung Fu practice, through teh hard work and progressive understanding will bring us to a place of knowing. KNowing will bring us to a place of testing. Events unfolding bring us to a place of doing.


I agree with the thought, but not the reality. It's true people can be violent, but preparing for physical violence, for most people, isn't necessary. Unless you're Russian, people don't really fist fight anymore. So this is good, but a dilemma for kung fu. We've had this discussion numerous times. So if kung fu isn't a sport, and there's a lack of a need for a lifetime commitment to self defense, then what is it? And that's where we are... What is kung fu? The answers are numerous.

[MightyB]

so if it's not a sport, and it's not self defense, then the trappings are what makes kung fu... kung fu. The stupid trappings are what kung fu's all about.

[MightyB]

so then the ancient weapons are important, the costumes and etiquette and politics of lineage are important, the forms, the pageantry, the lion dance, the belief in chi - these are the things that make kung fu... kung fu.

[MightyB]

kung fu is.... Romanticized ancient Chinese warrior LARPing. And there's nothing wrong with that. Be happy and enjoy it for what it is and all that's involved in practicing it.

[bawang]

kung fu is.... Romanticized ancient Chinese warrior LARPing. And there's nothing wrong with that. Be happy and enjoy it for what it is and all that's involved in practicing it.

of course its wrong with that. it makes you a giant stupid poosy.

[David Jamieson]

kung fu is.... Romanticized ancient Chinese warrior LARPing. And there's nothing wrong with that. Be happy and enjoy it for what it is and all that's involved in practicing it.

lol...no it's not. Kung fu is still skill acquired through time and effort.

ancient chinese warrior larping is hardly a good description of it.

I think there are serious and legit kung fu men and there are, chinese warrior larping clubs. Sure.

But then, there is also Non contact boxing now in order to empower people who will crumple in their first violent encounter because all they ever did was non contact boxing...lol

Everything is going soft and moving away from the animistic practices.

people look down on fighting and see it as base. there are other aspects of Kung Fu that are plenty cool though. Weapons comes to mind, immediately, particularly staff. That stuff is way cool, especially if you were taught properly and aren't just a fruit stick twirler, which is also common because of the whole, let's pretend to empower people movement that is huge in the west nowadays.

[MightyB]

lol...no it's not. Kung fu is still skill acquired through time and effort.

ancient chinese warrior larping is hardly a good description of it.

I think there are serious and legit kung fu men


to what avail? You can have the biggest c*ck in the world, but it doesn't matter if you're not f**king anybody with it.

TCMA is LARPing. It's OK. Be cool with it.

[MightyB]

of course its wrong with that. it makes you a giant stupid poosy.

in what way does TCMA make you a poosey? If you're a poosey, you were that way before you started.

[bawang]

in what way does TCMA make you a poosey? If you're a poosey, you were that way before you started.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oWAb5NVALw

[MightyB]

If you were preparing to be in a professional fight in 6 months, would TCMA be the best training to prepare you for it?

If you were going into a hostile environment in 6 months to a year (i.e. modern battle field, secret service, air marshal, etc) would TCMA be the best way to prepare for it?

NO.

Do people train to use muskets and Napoleonic lines when they join any modern military... how about horse calvary? No.

TCMA is LARPing. It's ok. Swords, staffs, spears, shields etc. have no place anymore. I walked across campus, not once did I see a stick, even a small one that would be suitable to use for SD - so that kills that adage "there's always a stick" because there isn't. And for self defense, there are faster gross motor skills dedicated personal SD systems that work and can be trained in a short amount of time.

[bawang]

TCMA is LARPing. It's ok. Swords, staffs, spears, shields etc. have no place anymore. I walked across campus, not once did I see a stick, even a small one that would be suitable to use for SD - so that kills that adage "there's always a stick" because there isn't. And for self defense, there are faster gross motor skills dedicated personal SD systems that work and can be trained in a short amount of time.

nerds and weirdos larp for the fun of it. its a childlike activity like cops and robbers. people look for something deeper in martial arts. larping is just pretend, but in kung fu, people desperately want to become something real.


kung fu is larping when the person does not respect the culture and peoples it comes from.

[MightyB]

nerds and weirdos larp for the fun of it. its a childlike activity like cops and robbers. people look for something deeper in martial arts.

It's as deep as you want to make it. I personally play seriously, but I recognize it as a paradox. For example, yesterday I spent quite a bit of time working on a dao move that requires great skill and coordination, but has very little relevance outside the context of that form. Do I feel that the practice is worthwhile? Yes. Does it lead to more body control, posture, concentration, and the complexity between yao and gong? Yes. But even with all of that it still holds little value outside the context of that form.

[bawang]

It's as deep as you want to make it. I personally play seriously, but I recognize it as a paradox. For example, yesterday I spent quite a bit of time working on a dao move that requires great skill and coordination, but has very little relevance outside the context of that form. Do I feel that the practice is worthwhile? Yes. Does it lead to more body control, posture, concentration, and the complexity between yao and gong? Yes. But even with all of that it still holds little value outside the context of that form.

i take a stick and stab the air 100 times every day, then chop the air 100 times every day. i pierce my worrys and split apart my obstacles in life. kung fu helps me mentally.

i dont larp because im not pretending to be anything and i dont fantasize myself doing anything.

[MightyB]

kung fu is larping when the person does not respect the culture and peoples it comes from.

and that's why I say what others call "silly" or "stupid trappings" are the very heart, soul, and essence of kung fu.

---

I'm similar to you with the stick, in that the practice is refreshing and invigorating and leads to a better quality of life.

[MightyB]

LOL, on another thread I say that you have to spar and fight to find the deeper meanings behind kung fu and on this one I say all of it doesn't f**king matter.

Paradox!

[bawang]

and that's why I say what others call "silly" or "stupid trappings" are the very heart, soul, and essence of kung fu.

---

I'm similar to you with the stick, in that the practice is refreshing and invigorating and leads to a better quality of life.

personally kung fu gave me the mental fortitude to face my problems in life. a girl tried to get me fired at work last year, so i got her fired.


when i visited china, i gave a homeless woman 400 dollars out of wu de. i also dont tell people in real life about it out of wu de.

[MightyB]

personally kung fu gave me the mental fortitude to face my problems in life. a girl tried to get me fired at work last year, so i got her fired.

My Sifu was remarking that 4 of his former students have grown up to become medical doctors. I said we should market, "study kung fu, become a doctor"!

---

It's all those other things in kung fu, that make it kung fu. The martial practice is soooo important to me personally, but it's also sooooo irrelevant.

[David Jamieson]

personally kung fu gave me the mental fortitude to face my problems in life. a girl tried to get me fired at work last year, so i got her fired.


when i visited china, i gave a homeless woman 400 dollars out of wu de. i also dont tell people in real life about it out of wu de.

How to get someone fired with Kung Fu - by Bawang

How to give money out thinking you're being altruistic, but then blowing it by telling people about it - by Bawang.

lol :p

[Lucas]

martial arts are like cars or houses or prostitutes. they all serve a similar purpose, but have different qualities that define them.

Unless you are in a position to require heavy training for fighting or defense, then martial arts are primarily about improving your over all quality of life, while also learning how to defend yourself. Even if you are in a position of focusing primarily on combat, you are still working on improving your quality of life. That of protecting, saving, and preserving your life in the face of threat.

[bawang]

It's all those other things in kung fu, that make it kung fu. The martial practice is soooo important to me personally, but it's also sooooo irrelevant.

i dont see how its irrelevant. kung fu adds color to my life. some people attach electrodes to their genitals to feel human. some people let big black men bang their wives to feel alive. i train kung fu.

[David Jamieson]

i dont see how its irrelevant. kung fu adds color to my life. some people attach electrodes to their genitals to feel human. some people let big black men bang their wives to feel alive. i train kung fu.

wow...you sure go to the far side quickly.

whatever happened to "some people smoke a little weed, others go to a strip club etc"

Not that your observations are incorrect, I have learned through hours of study of porn related materials in the name of science of course, that these factors exist.

SCIENCE!

[wenshu]

what, if anything makes it Gong Fu?

Chinese people.


personally kung fu gave me the mental fortitude to face my problems in life. a girl tried to get me fired at work last year, so i got her fired.

when i visited china, i gave a homeless woman 400 dollars out of wu de. i also dont tell people in real life about it out of wu de.

There is no way to share this without getting all cornball Jamieson style, but here goes . .

I started training in earnest when I first started getting my **** together in my late twenties after wasting the majority of my formative years as a lazy itinerant drug addict - that's not entirely true, I wasn't lazy about cocaine.

7 years later much of what I have worked towards professionally (6 figure income in a high demand field and no student loan debt) is due in no small part to the work ethic, fortitude and concentration developed in training.

Now I give back to my teachers/brothers by donating my time and skills writing software to help them manage their school's finances.

Problem now is I work too much and don't have as much time to train anymore.

[David Jamieson]

How can you be lazy and itinerant at the same time? lol

I love the smell of personal animosity and verbal jabs in the morning!

Or afternoon...whatever. :p

[wenshu]

Who believes what you are asserting is believed?



Accuracy is obtained through understanding the entirety of the motion.


Violence can be dealt with vis a vis martial arts development.

You've got to be kidding me. I've been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It's just common sense.

[bawang]

Chinese people.



There is no way to share this without getting all cornball Jamieson style, but here goes . .

I started training in earnest when I first started getting my **** together in my late twenties after wasting the majority of my formative years as a lazy itinerant drug addict - that's not entirely true, I wasn't lazy about cocaine.

7 years later much of what I have worked towards professionally (6 figure income in a high demand field and no student loan debt) is due in no small part to the work ethic, fortitude and concentration developed in training.

Now I give back to my teachers/brothers by donating my time and skills writing software to help them manage their school's finances.

Problem now is I work too much and don't have as much time to train anymore.

this is a very beautiful story. i cry tears like the yellow river and shoot milk from penus.

[David Jamieson]

You've got to be kidding me. I've been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It's just common sense.

That there is some awesome syntax buddy. Carry on...:p

[MasterKiller]

My Sifu was remarking that 4 of his former students have grown up to become medical doctors. I said we should market, "study kung fu, become a doctor"!

How many became crack heads and prostitutes?

[David Jamieson]

How many became crack heads and prostitutes?

It's clear that the Mayor of Toronto has not studied Kung Fu.
On the other hand, it's not clear if he's a crack smoker....

[wenshu]

How many became crack heads and prostitutes?

Don't forget rapists and pederasts.

[Kellen Bassette]

i dont see how its irrelevant. kung fu adds color to my life.

My younger brother told me I need to beat someone up for him. I told him fighting on the street is obsolete. If you fight someone, you may have to deal with being jumped by his friends and family with baseball bats. You might get shot or stabbed. You might go to jail. Better to just use the law to your advantage I told him.

He looked so disappointed in me. He asked why I train so hard and spend so much time and energy into it if it's pointless to fight in the street. I tell him it's the nature of man. I feel alive when I spar and grapple. It's hard, I get hurt, I heal and do it again. Animals spar all the time. It's part of nature. It's part of our nature.

I really think fighting is an important part of humanity that has been lost to modern society. That's why we fight in rings and cages now. The base instincts don't go away just because society changes.

[Sima Rong]

i dont see how its irrelevant. kung fu adds color to my life. some people attach electrodes to their genitals to feel human. some people let big black men bang their wives to feel alive. i train kung fu.

Plus you can give people colour see see. :D

[PalmStriker]

Flying into the future: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2010-05/27/content_9898957.htm

[KungFubar]

Strictly speaking, what makes it "kung fu" is the level of skill that rises to intrinsic perfection after long time of training. That is the real actual meaning of the words "kung fu". "Kung fu" is not a martial art, is not even strictly Chinese, per se, except for being Chinese language. It's a concept describing uncanny skill obtained thru much repeated hard work. Not even exclusive to martial arts. So if you want to be absolutely correct about the term you are using, that is the only thing that makes something "kung fu". See what I'm sayin?

So if kung fu can be anything that you get good at over time and energy such as guitar playing, or bodybuilding, break dancing, photography, etc etc, is there a chinese word for "martial kung fu"? What is the chinese word for "martial"?

[Kellen Bassette]

Wushu.......

[bawang]

So if kung fu can be anything that you get good at over time and energy such as guitar playing, or bodybuilding, break dancing, photography, etc etc, is there a chinese word for "martial kung fu"? What is the chinese word for "martial"?

yo mama poosy

[KungFubar]

Wushu.......

"Wu Kung Fu" nice.

[Jimbo]

Wushu basically means 'martial arts', meaning it could also refer to non-Chinese MA. Technically, the most accurate term is probably Zhongguo wushu (Chinese MA).

Some other terms are: wu yi, wu gong.

In Japan, the Chinese characters for 'wushu' are pronounced 'bujutsu'.

[Kellen Bassette]

In Japan, the Chinese characters for 'wushu' are pronounced 'bujutsu'.

Albeit without the negative connotation implied by the western usage of "wushu."

[IronWeasel]

So if kung fu can be anything that you get good at over time and energy such as guitar playing, or bodybuilding, break dancing, photography, etc etc, is there a chinese word for "martial kung fu"? What is the chinese word for "martial"?



Chuan Fa?

Maybe Mr. Ross will weigh in on this one.

[YouKnowWho]

Chuan Fa?

"Chuan Fa - fist method" only cover the striking art. It doesnot cover the throwing art.

[David Jamieson]

martial = Wu = 武

[SavvySavage]

personally kung fu gave me the mental fortitude to face my problems in life. a girl tried to get me fired at work last year, so i got her fired.


when i visited china, i gave a homeless woman 400 dollars out of wu de. i also dont tell people in real life about it out of wu de.

You don't tell people in real life that you study Kung fu because they will try to beat you and you will flail like a Kung fu woman.

[David Jamieson]

You don't tell people in real life that you study Kung fu because they will try to beat you and you will flail like a Kung fu woman.

I agree with this ...well except for the flailing woman part. lol
I am not overt or blatant about martial practice and keep it to myself for the most part in my everyday life.

My facebook page isn't plastered with pictures of myself in kung fu poses and such and in fact, you probably won't find any of that on my page or my personal website etc. For exactly that reason.

I don't want someone to know that I can meet them in violence and that way I get to have the surprise because it won't be me who is the aggressor. :)

Part of Kung Fu is being a sneaky jerk. :p

[Lucas]

“Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.”

[David Jamieson]

“Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.”

An axiom for all.

[MightyB]

Appear purple when you are stoned, green when you are *****, red when you're angry!