Anyone know the backstory to this clip?

[guy b.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU8B6eNm2zs

Looks like pretty poor wing chun but got the job done.

[GlennR]

Whats poor about it?

[anerlich]

Pretty poor MT more like it. 7 years bad luck for him as well.

[GlennR]

Pretty poor MT more like it. 7 years bad luck for him as well.

Yep, the MT wasnt real flash

[guy b.]

Whats poor about it?

Lacks forward pressure from stance

[GlennR]

Lacks forward pressure from stance

He made the other guy go backwards.......... what more do you want/

[anerlich]

He made the other guy go backwards.......... what more do you want/

Probably the WC guy had to push the MT guy not just through the mirror but the wall behind it as well.

[wingchunIan]

difficult to judge the quality of the Wing Chun without knowing the premise of the exchange. The alledged MT guy had gloves on so if this was supposed to be full contact I'd say that the Wing Chun guy needs to work on his distancing and punching power. He also provided a fairly static target that might have lead to a different outcome against a better opponent. That said, you can only beat who is in front of you and although the alledged MT fighter was very poor that never seems to enter into the equation when clips of Wing Chun practitioners getting beaten are posted on youtube.

[LFJ]

He also provided a fairly static target that might have lead to a different outcome against a better opponent.

I've seen people make critiques like this all the time and it has become sort of a pet peeve. Who's to say they would do the same thing against a different fighter? People say; "If he did that to me, I would...", but he's not doing that to you, and who's to say he would? If what he did on this particular opponent worked, then the job was done. Another situation is another situation, especially a hypothetical one. You can't take something that was already done and fight that.

And what's this about lacking forward pressure? He forced the guy backward into the mirror without forward pressure? The MT guy just felt like running through glass that day?

[Wayfaring]

Don't know background.

Poor MT - the initial clinch shows an absolute lack of familiarity with MT clinching. MT guy gets tied up and taken down by a WCK guy with what looks to be no training in that either.

The WCK guy basically applies one concept - forward pressure on the centerline, and runs over the guy with little technique involved. Interesting to see the clueless highlight the one thing he's doing right as what is poor in his WCK.

[wingchunIan]

I've seen people make critiques like this all the time and it has become sort of a pet peeve. Who's to say they would do the same thing against a different fighter? People say; "If he did that to me, I would...", but he's not doing that to you, and who's to say he would? If what he did on this particular opponent worked, then the job was done. Another situation is another situation, especially a hypothetical one. You can't take something that was already done and fight that. hmmmm, you're entitled to your opinion but first lets be clear I didn't at all say "if he did that to me" or any such thing. I commented on a clip in the same way that proffessional sports commentators comment on events the world over, they highlight percieved weaknesses and strengths. If the protaganist knows the issue I highlighted and doesn't display the same weakness against a better opponent then fair play to him but I comment on what I see not what i imagine.


And what's this about lacking forward pressure? He forced the guy backward into the mirror without forward pressure? The MT guy just felt like running through glass that day?
For the record I never mentioned any lack of forward pressure.

[Frost]

difficult to judge the quality of the Wing Chun without knowing the premise of the exchange. The alledged MT guy had gloves on so if this was supposed to be full contact I'd say that the Wing Chun guy needs to work on his distancing and punching power. He also provided a fairly static target that might have lead to a different outcome against a better opponent. That said, you can only beat who is in front of you and although the alledged MT fighter was very poor that never seems to enter into the equation when clips of Wing Chun practitioners getting beaten are posted on youtube.

problem is for every bad thai fighter posted, you can find 20 good clips to ompare them to, with wing chun the so called good clips are hard to find

[Frost]

Don't know background.

Poor MT - the initial clinch shows an absolute lack of familiarity with MT clinching. MT guy gets tied up and taken down by a WCK guy with what looks to be no training in that either.

The WCK guy basically applies one concept - forward pressure on the centerline, and runs over the guy with little technique involved. Interesting to see the clueless highlight the one thing he's doing right as what is poor in his WCK.

yep thought the same thing, the wing chun guy kept the pressure on and striahgt down the centre....and wone the exchange doing just that cant fault him on that point

[wingchunIan]

yep thought the same thing, the wing chun guy kept the pressure on and striahgt down the centre....and wone the exchange doing just that cant fault him on that point

Agree completely, ultimately as I said above you can only ever beat what is in front of you

[wingchunIan]

problem is for every bad thai fighter posted, you can find 20 good clips to ompare them to, with wing chun the so called good clips are hard to find

Unfortunately very true.

[Wayfaring]

Agree completely, ultimately as I said above you can only ever beat what is in front of you

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/283/544/e02.gif

[LFJ]

hmmmm, you're entitled to your opinion but first lets be clear I didn't at all say "if he did that to me" or any such thing....

For the record I never mentioned any lack of forward pressure.

Yeah, that whole post wasn't directed at you. What you said just reminded me of what "People say;..." quite often.

[guy b.]

Looks like the same guy in this clip. Lack of stance pressure is apparent again but he kind of wins it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f7td8Hc-V4

[guy b.]

Does anyone know the identities of anyone involved?

[GlennR]

Does anyone know the identities of anyone involved?

Yes.

Hong Kong fuey versus Wun Hung Low

[guy b.]

Yes.

Hong Kong fuey versus Wun Hung Low

hahahahaha!

[Frost]

Does anyone know the identities of anyone involved?

what does it matter, seriously in any other fighting art two clips by a mid level fighter wouldnt even raise peoples eyebrows, but this being wing chun we need to know their names, lineage and the back story...its just sparring their doesnt have to be a shaw borthers story behind it

[guy b.]

what does it matter

I thought someone said we can only judge wing chun by results? Here is a positive result from someone that I think is demonstrating less than great wing chun. Are you happy? Do you feel more kindly disposed towards wing chun now?


seriously in any other fighting art two clips by a mid level fighter wouldnt even raise peoples eyebrows, but this being wing chun we need to know their names, lineage and the back story

Judging only by results makes the identities of those involved (and their previous records) very important, don't you think? For example with Alan Orr's team fights we know the level of opponent is very low based on previous records and so, win or lose, we can be sure it doesn't tell us much about the utility of wing chun in sports competitions. Judging the way you want to, if a wing chun fighter won a large competition you could then proclaim wing chun as effective.


its just sparring their doesnt have to be a shaw borthers story behind it

It isn't sparring. Looks like a gym challenge to me.

[LFJ]

Looks like the same guy in this clip. Lack of stance pressure is apparent again but he kind of wins it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f7td8Hc-V4

Sure, he could have done a lot better, but he at least handled it on his feet. Now if he only knew what to do once in position on the ground, the Karateka would have had something broken in a matter of seconds. Too bad they are both totally clueless on the ground.

[anerlich]

Sure, he could have done a lot better, but he at least handled it on his feet. Now if he only knew what to do once in position on the ground, the Karateka would have had something broken in a matter of seconds. Too bad they are both totally clueless on the ground.

The karateka had an opportunity for armbar from the guard, and once the WC guy freed that arm he (WC) could have passed guard properly and got a better control position.

Most karate and WC skills don't teach groundfighting. I don't think it's fair to criticise the fighters on their lack of ground skills in that context (though in other contexts it might well be fair).

Wing Chun guy looked pretty good, though his opponent did little but cover up and throw wild haymakers.

[Frost]

I thought someone said we can only judge wing chun by results? Here is a positive result from someone that I think is demonstrating less than great wing chun. Are you happy? Do you feel more kindly disposed towards wing chun now?



Judging only by results makes the identities of those involved (and their previous records) very important, don't you think? For example with Alan Orr's team fights we know the level of opponent is very low based on previous records and so, win or lose, we can be sure it doesn't tell us much about the utility of wing chun in sports competitions. Judging the way you want to, if a wing chun fighter won a large competition you could then proclaim wing chun as effective.



It isn't sparring. Looks like a gym challenge to me.

you are the one saying he won with less than great wing chun and criticising him, as you have done with all the fight clips from alan orr and you still haven;t posted a single fighting clip you think is a good rep of wing chun......

[tc101]

I thought someone said we can only judge wing chun by results? Here is a positive result from someone that I think is demonstrating less than great wing chun. Are you happy? Do you feel more kindly disposed towards wing chun now?



Judging only by results makes the identities of those involved (and their previous records) very important, don't you think? For example with Alan Orr's team fights we know the level of opponent is very low based on previous records and so, win or lose, we can be sure it doesn't tell us much about the utility of wing chun in sports competitions. Judging the way you want to, if a wing chun fighter won a large competition you could then proclaim wing chun as effective.



It isn't sparring. Looks like a gym challenge to me.

If you look at clips of some amateur boxers or mma fighters even they may not look good to you or live up to your standards but so what? Do you then dismiss boxing or mma.

You have several times before mentioned how the Orr team is low level even though they fight amateur semi and pro level mma. That level of performance is on par with most good mma gyms and that is a pretty high level.

What you need to realize is that wing chun like for example boxing is only part of what goes into being able to fight mma. All it takes is for your opponent to shoot a low single on you and the wing chun like the boxing is taken away from you. Couture showed that when he fought Toney.

[guy b.]

you are the one saying he won with less than great wing chun and criticising him, as you have done with all the fight clips from alan orr and you still haven;t posted a single fighting clip you think is a good rep of wing chun......

I have posted many clips of good wing chun. You have posted none...and this is a wing chun forum. Imagine

[guy b.]

If you look at clips of some amateur boxers or mma fighters even they may not look good to you or live up to your standards but so what? Do you then dismiss boxing or mma.

The training systems utilised in boxing and mma, and the principles underlying (where they even exist), are fundamentally flawed.


You have several times before mentioned how the Orr team is low level even though they fight amateur semi and pro level mma. That level of performance is on par with most good mma gyms and that is a pretty high level.

Anyone can fight. Only a few win. Orr's team wins nothing of any consequence. If you hold sport fighting results as the be all and end all then you have to live or die by that ethos. You can't have it both ways.


What you need to realize is that wing chun like for example boxing is only part of what goes into being able to fight mma. All it takes is for your opponent to shoot a low single on you and the wing chun like the boxing is taken away from you. Couture showed that when he fought Toney.

I am not interested in playing in sports competitions. You seem to be confusing these with real fighting, lol

[wingchunIan]

The training systems utilised in boxing and mma, and the principles underlying (where they even exist), are fundamentally flawed.


That's either the most arrogant or most deluded post I've read in ages, can't decide which.

[guy b.]

That's either the most arrogant or most deluded post I've read in ages, can't decide which.

It is probably the truest post you have read in a while, although you obviously don't realise it. Training in gloves is a good idea if you are going to fight in gloves. Not if you are not. I don't wear padded gloves most of the time. Do you?

[jesper]

It is probably the truest post you have read in a while, although you obviously don't realise it. Training in gloves is a good idea if you are going to fight in gloves. Not if you are not. I don't wear padded gloves most of the time. Do you?

Then go to any mma or boxing Club and challenge them to fight without gloves. Piece of cake since they are clueless about fighting in your oppinion

[GlennR]

The training systems utilised in boxing and mma, and the principles underlying (where they even exist), are fundamentally flawed.




Id suggest the logic system in your brain is fundamentally flawed.

Honestly, go down to your local boxing gym, and im sure they'll accommodate you with some gloveless sparring after you tell them they are doing it all wrong.

Gee, youll even have an advantage as they will only be used to sparring with gloves.

Go on champ....... youll moider tha bums..............

[LFJ]

Most karate and WC skills don't teach groundfighting. I don't think it's fair to criticise the fighters on their lack of ground skills in that context (though in other contexts it might well be fair).

Why not? They're both fighters, right? It's kind of a joke if you want to learn to fight but would die as soon as you hit the ground. If you learn a fighting art, to fight, regardless of which art and what it lacks, I think it's fair to criticize you on any aspect of fighting. It's your fault if your skills are lacking and you turn into a clueless pre-beginner on the ground. It's alright if they're just hobbyists or just don't take it very seriously.

[guy b.]

Id suggest the logic system in your brain is fundamentally flawed.

Honestly, go down to your local boxing gym, and im sure they'll accommodate you with some gloveless sparring after you tell them they are doing it all wrong.

Gee, youll even have an advantage as they will only be used to sparring with gloves.

Go on champ....... youll moider tha bums..............

How do you think I know that gloved training messes up the distancing and timing model of the brain?

[jesper]

How do you think I know that gloved training messes up the distancing and timing model of the brain?

You dont. you only assume it does

[wingchunIan]

How do you think I know that gloved training messes up the distancing and timing model of the brain?

because you're repeating some mumbo jumbo rhetoric that you have swallowed hook line and sinker

[guy b.]

because you're repeating some mumbo jumbo rhetoric that you have swallowed hook line and sinker

This is what you are doing. I am using evidence

[wingchunIan]

It is probably the truest post you have read in a while, although you obviously don't realise it. Training in gloves is a good idea if you are going to fight in gloves. Not if you are not. I don't wear padded gloves most of the time. Do you?

there was nothing true in your post at all - absolutely nothing. Your comment here about training in gloves is so ridiculous it is hard to believe that you genuinely believe it. By the same logic there is no point using a jong, wall bag, focus mitts, heavy bag or any other piece of training equipment because only hitting people is really hitting people and unless you are going to fight a jong why use it?.
I train regularly mostly without gloves for drills, forms, chi sao and light application work but to pressure test what we do I wear 6oz mma gloves and my partner will wear any protective equipment we feel necessary for the level of contact such as full face headguard, shin protection, box etc For your education the distancing, timing and power generation is no different when wearing 6oz mma gloves than it is with bare hands. the only reason for wearing the gloves is to limit the damage caused to the training partner and to limit damage to hands from the hard parts of face grills on the head guards when they are in use.

[wingchunIan]

This is what you are doing. I am using evidence

you haven't presented any evidence and you won't be able to because you are talking tosh. I am basing my POV on regular experience of both gloved and ungloved training as I believe are others here. Do you even have any idea of what 6oz mm gloves are? or what it feels like to wear them?

[guy b.]

you haven't presented any evidence and you won't be able to because you are talking tosh. I am basing my POV on regular experience of both gloved and ungloved training as I believe are others here. Do you even have any idea of what 6oz mm gloves are? or what it feels like to wear them?

You appear to be basing most of your posts on wishful thinking, attempting to justify the training methodology you already use. I am basing mine on direct first hand experience of gloves training vs training without gloves.

[Wayfaring]

How do you think I know that gloved training messes up the distancing and timing model of the brain?

Because you tried it once and it doesn't fit in well with the rest of your slap-fighting chi sau model?

[guy b.]

Because you tried it once and it doesn't fit in well with the rest of your slap-fighting chi sau model?

You are projecting. I don't think such an experience would count as evidence for any level headed person. Perhaps someone with biases like you have, but not for me

[Wayfaring]

You are projecting. I don't think such an experience would count as evidence for any level headed person. Perhaps someone with biases like you have, but not for me

Oh, look. guyb learned another vocabulary word from one of my posts and is now repeating it back to me.

@$$h@t troll ignore it is.

[guy b.]

Oh, look. guyb learned another vocabulary word from one of my posts and is now repeating it back to me.

@$$h@t troll ignore it is.

Check the time stamp on the posts moron

[Wayfaring]

Check the time stamp on the posts moron

I posted about projection, looked on another thread, and presto you used the same word. Whatever.

[wingchunIan]

You appear to be basing most of your posts on wishful thinking, attempting to justify the training methodology you already use. I am basing mine on direct first hand experience of gloves training vs training without gloves.

I see that you are neither arrogant nor deluded, just quite simply retarded!!! As I have just posted I train frequently both bare handed and wearing gloves, which is real experience. I also have plenty of experience using my wing chun for real as do many of those i train with. You on the other hand display by your truly ridiculous posts that you have no experience full stop. I'm through discussing with you, keep taking the tablets.

[JPinAZ]

Oh, look. guyb learned another vocabulary word from one of my posts and is now repeating it back to me.

@$$h@t troll ignore it is.

Haha, you saw that too? I've noticed that he does this a lot with many people's posts, some of mine included. And I'm sure that's all he does with whatever BJJ or WC ideas he posts here. Pure trolldome at it's finest. I feel like Victor saying this, but ignore is your friend! ;)

[guy b.]

I posted about projection, looked on another thread, and presto you used the same word. Whatever.

What a shocking coincidence, lol

[guy b.]

Haha, you saw that too? I've noticed that he does this a lot with many people's posts, some of mine included. And I'm sure that's all he does with whatever BJJ or WC ideas he posts here. Pure trolldome at it's finest. I feel like Victor saying this, but ignore is your friend! ;)

Trolls always accuse others of being trolls. It's the first rule of trolling

[Wayfaring]

Haha, you saw that too? I've noticed that he does this a lot with many people's posts, some of mine included. And I'm sure that's all he does with whatever BJJ or WC ideas he posts here. Pure trolldome at it's finest. I feel like Victor saying this, but ignore is your friend! ;)

You're probably right. It's like one of those worms in an old Star Trek episode, that just latches on and then eventually becomes symbiotic.

What did they use to get rid of that one?

Live sparring?

[guy b.]

I posted about projection, looked on another thread, and presto you used the same word. Whatever.

guy b. yesterday 4.11
Wayfaring yesterday 4.17

You are laughably, blatantly, dishonest and also stupid. How does it feel to be caught in yet another petty lie?

[JPinAZ]

You're probably right. It's like one of those worms in an old Star Trek episode, that just latches on and then eventually becomes symbiotic.

What did they use to get rid of that one?

Live sparring?

haha, probably. If only they had an Ignore button to go with it!

[GlennR]

How do you think I know that gloved training messes up the distancing and timing model of the brain?

You dont.

Apart from the extra inch or so on the end of your fist it doesnt affect anything in regards to boxing.
Timing, distance..... anything

Quite simply, it works.

In regards to WC using gloves (with the exception of very small MMA types) ill actually agree with you that you cant really do it with them on. Though some will argue with that here.
But hey, that depends on what you think WC is and how it should be used. FWIW, WC is not boxing IMO.

[wingchunIan]

You dont.

Apart from the extra inch or so on the end of your fist it doesnt affect anything in regards to boxing.
Timing, distance..... anything

Quite simply, it works.

In regards to WC using gloves (with the exception of very small MMA types) ill actually agree with you that you cant really do it with them on. Though some will argue with that here.
But hey, that depends on what you think WC is and how it should be used. FWIW, WC is not boxing IMO.

I agree completely Glenn that the only type of gloves that allow full expression of wing chun are mma style open fingered gloves and they are the only type I use. The difference that they make to your striking is negligible aside from the intended purpose of protecting your hands and the opponents head.

[Wayfaring]

In regards to WC using gloves (with the exception of very small MMA types) ill actually agree with you that you cant really do it with them on. Though some will argue with that here.
But hey, that depends on what you think WC is and how it should be used. FWIW, WC is not boxing IMO.

I would actually recommend that the vast majority of WCK sparring with live energy be done with 4-6oz gloves, what they call "MMA gloves". Once in a while put on heavier boxing gloves - 14-18oz and focus on a little harder contact. The heavier gloves change the angles a bit so I wouldn't recommend them all the time. 4oz gloves cut a lot more though - so the direct face punches can't be trained as much with live energy.

[guy b.]

You dont.

Apart from the extra inch or so on the end of your fist it doesnt affect anything in regards to boxing.
Timing, distance..... anything

Quite simply, it works.

Actually it affects all of these. An extra inch makes a huge difference to distancing, timing and power. The reactions of puncher and opponent are very different without gloves. The power generation is hugely different- gloves actively encourage swings, a dead kind of power, while wing chun power generation requires full connection to learn effectively. Gloved training is actively counter productive and also dangerous.


In regards to WC using gloves (with the exception of very small MMA types) ill actually agree with you that you cant really do it with them on. Though some will argue with that here.
But hey, that depends on what you think WC is and how it should be used. FWIW, WC is not boxing IMO.

I am glad you agree. Wing chun is certainly not boxing. Thank goodness for that.

[GlennR]

Actually it affects all of these. An extra inch makes a huge difference to distancing, timing and power. The reactions of puncher and opponent are very different without gloves. The power generation is hugely different- gloves actively encourage swings, a dead kind of power, while wing chun power generation requires full connection to learn effectively. Gloved training is actively counter productive and also dangerous.

Youre just plain wrong.
A boxer, gloves or not, will fight the same if he is in a self defense, no glove scenario.. and probably win if he is any good.

You over generalise a style ,(boxing) you just dont know enough about to comment on. Boxing, or gloves for that matter, do not encourage "swings".
Period. Finito. No

You are just wrong.

Ive put this page up in the sticky section.... www.myboxingcoach.com ...

Have a good look at the many videos there, and play around with some of the power generation methods, and you will see there is nothing that you mention to be found


I am glad you agree. Wing chun is certainly not boxing. Thank goodness for that.

No its not, and boxing isnt WC.... thank goodness for that

[guy b.]

Youre just plain wrong.
A boxer, gloves or not, will fight the same if he is in a self defense, no glove scenario.. and probably win if he is any good.

Lol, who is over generalising really?


You over generalise a style ,(boxing) you just dont know enough about to comment on. Boxing, or gloves for that matter, do not encourage "swings".
Period. Finito. No

I think it is you who does not know much. What would you describe as a swing?


Ive put this page up in the sticky section.... www.myboxingcoach.com ...

Have a good look at the many videos there, and play around with some of the power generation methods, and you will see there is nothing that you mention to be found

Lolol, ok coach

[GlennR]

Lol, who is over generalising really?


You.
Blanket comments about something you dont know about........ its so bloody obvious.


I think it is you who does not know much. What would you describe as a swing?

A swing? Id say something you and your mates do to replicate a hook in your "defense against a boxer" scenario im sure you do between mindless posts on here


Lolol, ok coach

My pleasure... i like to help the needy

[guy b.]

You.
Blanket comments about something you dont know about........ its so bloody obvious.



A swing? Id say something you and your mates do to replicate a hook in your "defense against a boxer" scenario im sure you do between mindless posts on here



My pleasure... i like to help the needy

Ignorance is bliss, apparently

[guy b.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il6zh5uFyY0&NR=1&feature=endscreen

what do you make of this?

[GlennR]

Ignorance is bliss, apparently

Then you must be Mayor McBliss of Blissville, Blissingham.

Now do everyone a favour and bliss off

[guy b.]

Then you must be Mayor McBliss of Blissville, Blissingham.

Now do everyone a favour and bliss off

You want me to leave my own 5 page thread?

[tc101]

When a person has his mind firmly made up and set no argument or videos or anything will change it. The only way to change such a mind is the right kind of actual personal experience. Of course that is usually avoided since people don't normally go outside of their comfort zones.

[Frost]

Actually it affects all of these. An extra inch makes a huge difference to distancing, timing and power. The reactions of puncher and opponent are very different without gloves. The power generation is hugely different- gloves actively encourage swings, a dead kind of power, while wing chun power generation requires full connection to learn effectively. Gloved training is actively counter productive and also dangerous.


a dead kind of power....really....... and yet every street fight and vale tudo match thats posted (where gloves aren't used and full power strikes are allowed ) we see the majority of punches are what you would call swings: hooks overhands etc

Amazing that, no where outside of wing chun do you see vertical straight punches...and then usually only in light contact and against other wing chun people when the sh*t hits the fan and people actually want to generate power barehand the last thing they throw is a straight line punch lol

[wingchunIan]

Actually it affects all of these. An extra inch makes a huge difference to distancing, timing and power. The reactions of puncher and opponent are very different without gloves. The power generation is hugely different- gloves actively encourage swings, a dead kind of power, while wing chun power generation requires full connection to learn effectively. Gloved training is actively counter productive and also dangerous.


small lightweight fingerless gloves do not encourage any type of strike. The nature and effectiveness of your striking determines the type of strike that you will throw. Most people that you see resorting to throwing looping and swinging shots when they put on gloves do so not because they are wearing gloves but because for the first time in their training the other person is actually trying to hit them and under pressure of being hit their wonderful tip tap punches that they train so effectively in fresh air or with minimal chest contact whilst bare handed suddenly become completely useless.
My advice to you would be to borrow / buy a pair of 4 or 6 oz mma gloves and go and hit something or someone. You will instantly see that it has no impact whatsoever to the way in which you generate power. Your alternative is to keep your head buried in the sand and prefer to continue to believe the nonsense that you have been fed.

[GlennR]

You want me to leave my own 5 page thread?

Well god knows youve said nothing that makes any sense so far..... so thats a yes

[tc101]

a dead kind of power....really....... and yet every street fight and vale tudo match thats posted (where gloves aren't used and full power strikes are allowed ) we see the majority of punches are what you would call swings: hooks overhands etc

Amazing that, no where outside of wing chun do you see vertical straight punches...and then usually only in light contact and against other wing chun people when the sh*t hits the fan and people actually want to generate power barehand the last thing they throw is a straight line punch lol

The thing is when you strike wearing gloves you are not trying to simply make contact with the outside edge of the glove which I guess is what guyb is talking about when he talks about throwing off your range but try to strike and make contact with your fist since if your first does not make contact through the glove with the target there will be no power transfer and no damage. I mention this because the range is not put off by wearing gloves as you are still trying to strike with the fist as though you were not wearing gloves and the gloves compact upon impact. That is the only way to develop power. Boxers do not care if they get scrapped with leather.

[guy b.]

When a person has his mind firmly made up and set no argument or videos or anything will change it. The only way to change such a mind is the right kind of actual personal experience. Of course that is usually avoided since people don't normally go outside of their comfort zones.

I agree, these guys are hopeless. They need to get out there and experience some things.

[guy b.]

a dead kind of power....really....... and yet every street fight and vale tudo match thats posted (where gloves aren't used and full power strikes are allowed ) we see the majority of punches are what you would call swings: hooks overhands etc

Amazing that, no where outside of wing chun do you see vertical straight punches...and then usually only in light contact and against other wing chun people when the sh*t hits the fan and people actually want to generate power barehand the last thing they throw is a straight line punch lol

Traditional Chinese boxing arts are not easy or natural. They take work. Anyone can throw a dumb bomb and this is as far as most people get, including you apparently.

Where you see vertical punches thrown is where people have experience of fighting without gloves. Not just in wing chun. There is a whole world of martial arts that uses yin punch for good reason. Boxing also used it in the days before gloves.

Why are you on a Chinese MA forum if you think it is such a waste of time?

[guy b.]

small lightweight fingerless gloves do not encourage any type of strike. The nature and effectiveness of your striking determines the type of strike that you will throw. Most people that you see resorting to throwing looping and swinging shots when they put on gloves do so not because they are wearing gloves but because for the first time in their training the other person is actually trying to hit them and under pressure of being hit their wonderful tip tap punches that they train so effectively in fresh air or with minimal chest contact whilst bare handed suddenly become completely useless.
My advice to you would be to borrow / buy a pair of 4 or 6 oz mma gloves and go and hit something or someone. You will instantly see that it has no impact whatsoever to the way in which you generate power. Your alternative is to keep your head buried in the sand and prefer to continue to believe the nonsense that you have been fed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il6zh5uFyY0&NR=1&feature=endscreen

[Wayfaring]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il6zh5uFyY0&NR=1&feature=endscreen

and this is supposed to illustrate something. what is it?

[guy b.]

and this is supposed to illustrate something. what is it?

It is a reply to the points raised

[tc101]

It is a reply to the points raised

I will be the first to admit that I am a bit dull so can you explain what points specifically this video addresses and how?

[YouKnowWho]

no where outside of wing chun do you see vertical straight punches...

This is not true. Some style such as the XingYi system doesn't even have the horizontal punch. Their Beng Chuan, Pao Chuan, and Hen Chuan are all vertical fist. In the longfist system, after you have passed the beginner training stage, all horizontal punches will be changed into vertical punch.

Old Chinese saying said, "无阴不毒(Wu Yin Bu Du) - All Yin are poison". There are many good reasons for vertical punch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVc5vj4ynj8

[guy b.]

I will be the first to admit that I am a bit dull so can you explain what points specifically this video addresses and how?

Try reading one of the posts to which it was a response. This one for example:


small lightweight fingerless gloves do not encourage any type of strike. The nature and effectiveness of your striking determines the type of strike that you will throw. Most people that you see resorting to throwing looping and swinging shots when they put on gloves do so not because they are wearing gloves but because for the first time in their training the other person is actually trying to hit them and under pressure of being hit their wonderful tip tap punches that they train so effectively in fresh air or with minimal chest contact whilst bare handed suddenly become completely useless.
My advice to you would be to borrow / buy a pair of 4 or 6 oz mma gloves and go and hit something or someone. You will instantly see that it has no impact whatsoever to the way in which you generate power. Your alternative is to keep your head buried in the sand and prefer to continue to believe the nonsense that you have been fed.

[guy b.]

Old Chinese saying said, "无阴不毒(Wu Yin Bu Du) - All Yin are poison". There are many good reasons for vertical punch.

Many good reasons. It isn't used arbitrarily

[YouKnowWho]

Many good reasons. It isn't used arbitrarily

To keep the elbow to point downward is one (your arm won't be cracked). There are 3 levels of a straight line punch.

1. horizontal punch,
2. straight arm vertical punch.
3. bending arm vertical punch.

3 is safer than 2, and 2 is safer than 1.

[tc101]

Try reading one of the posts to which it was a response. This one for example:

As I said I am a bit dull. I did read that one. What does your video show that either supports or refutes that? Sorry but I just don't see it.

[guy b.]

As I said I am a bit dull. I did read that one. What does your video show that either supports or refutes that? Sorry but I just don't see it.

I'm sorry if you can't read the points made by wing chun Ian. The clip answers many of them in a fairly obvious way

[sanjuro_ronin]

To keep the elbow to point downward is one (your arme won't be cracked). There are 3 levels of a straight line punch.

1. horizontal punch,
2. straight arm vertical punch.
3. bending arm vertical punch.

3 is safer than 2, and 2 is safer than 1.

I tend to agree with most of what you say John, but on this, well...experience has shown me that horizontal or vertical is irrelevant.

[YouKnowWho]

horizontal or vertical is irrelevant.

If you kill your opponent with your straight punch, you will get the same sentence no matter you used horizontal punch or vertical punch.

[wingchunIan]

I'm sorry if you can't read the points made by wing chun Ian. The clip answers many of them in a fairly obvious way

The clip doesn't answer anything!!! Are you trying to suggest that one of the two karatekas in the clip was wearing invisible gloves? Or are you trying to suggest that one trained in gloves whilst the other did not?

[guy b.]

The clip doesn't answer anything!!! Are you trying to suggest that one of the two karatekas in the clip was wearing invisible gloves? Or are you trying to suggest that one trained in gloves whilst the other did not?

Did you like the clip?

[guy b.]

I tend to agree with most of what you say John, but on this, well...experience has shown me that horizontal or vertical is irrelevant.

Apart from the fact that certain structure (and hence power chain) is only accessible with one or the other. You are also less likely to break a hand with vertical fist, regardless of structure, because of the way it engages connective tissue in the forearm.

[pazman]

Even when there are clips of wing chun players winning, wing chun people will still complain of bad wing chun "structure".

Shameful.

[tc101]

Even when there are clips of wing chun players winning, wing chun people will still complain of bad wing chun "structure".

Shameful.

This is because I think some people have an idea wing chun should look a certain way and that certain way is how they practice and anyone not doing it their way is wrong. They see the concepts of having only one correct interpretation their interpretation. They do not accept that the most important thing about how you do wing chun is your personal performance level of doing your wing chun. Sometimes I think if a wing chun guy beat a world champ a great many wing chun people would still want to tell him what he was doing wrong and how their way is right and better.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you kill your opponent with your straight punch, you will get the same sentence no matter you used horizontal punch or vertical punch.

Exactamundo.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Apart from the fact that certain structure (and hence power chain) is only accessible with one or the other. You are also less likely to break a hand with vertical fist, regardless of structure, because of the way it engages connective tissue in the forearm.

No.
Seriously I am blown away that this crap that has been discussed ad nauseum is still being rehashed over and over.

[BPWT]

This is not true. Some style such as the XingYi system doesn't even have the horizontal punch. Their Beng Chuan, Pao Chuan, and Hen Chuan are all vertical fist. In the longfist system, after you have passed the beginner training stage, all horizontal punches will be changed into vertical punch.

Plus, Hapkido, Isshinryu, boxing in Burma, Kali and Silat also make use of a vertical fist. So not a method exclusive to Wing Chun.

[guy b.]

No.
Seriously I am blown away that this crap that has been discussed ad nauseum is still being rehashed over and over.

Please describe utilising the wing chun power chain with a horizontal fist

[YouKnowWho]

some people have an idea wing chun should look a certain way and that certain way is how they practice and anyone not doing it their way is wrong.

This just doesn't happen in the discussion of other systems. I have not heard any Judo guy said that his way is right and all other ways are wrong.

Why do you think this only happen in the WC discussion?

[guy b.]

This just doesn't happen in the discussion of other systems. I have not heard any Judo guy said that his way is right and all other ways are wrong.

Why do you think this only happen in the WC discussion?

You would probably find judo guys saying this is people in judo regularly did something in judo comps that was not judo. Most of them just stick to judo however

[anerlich]

You would probably find judo guys saying this is people in judo regularly did something in judo comps that was not judo. Most of them just stick to judo however

These judo guys must hang out with the still unidentified BJJ black belts who accuse Eduardo Telles of heresy.

[guy b.]

These judo guys must hang out with the still unidentified BJJ black belts who accuse Eduardo Telles of heresy.

Tell it to that coward Wayfaring