I don't argue

[YouKnowWho]

Quite often when A expressed an opinion, B disagreed, if A

- respond to it, A will be trapped into a long argument.
- didn't respond to it, B will be offended.

Allow me to borrow Miqi's statement here:

"I don't argue, I just tell you, and you listen or not. All the best."

I find this may be the best way for online discussion. You put up your opinion and I put up mine. You don't expect me to agree with you. I don't expect you to agree with me either.

- You "tell" me how you feel. It's up to me to listen to you or not.
- I "tell" you how I feel. It's up to you to listen to me or not.

Please notice that the word "tell" is very important key word for this thread.

I have always loved to have a discussion environment like this. Sometime we my just be too cautious to choose our words inorder not to offend others. When we do that, we restrice ourselves to open our heart completely. It just takes away the fun of online discussion. I have been in another "internal" forum for a long time. Oneday I just realized that no matter how careful that I might choose my words, someone was always offended by my opinion. I just decide to leave that environment.

For example, whenever I have seen the words "internal" or "push", I just have to say something. 99% of the time, my opinion will offend someone. I can always have 2 options. To say whatever I want to say, or to say whatever people want to hear. If I can't be honest to myself, I may not respect myself enough.

What's your thought on this?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I stopped trying to "convert" people ages ago.
Not worth it because people have already made up their minds.
Like you, I express my view and I may expand on it but beyond that, not much.
I like to clear up misconceptions about things I know to be wrong and I MAY get into about that, but beyond what I KNOW, I don't bother that much.
After 35 years of MA, there isn't much that I haven't seen or heard so...

[MightyB]

That pic really derails a thread...

Anyway - years ago a sociology instructor said pretty much the same thing, and I'll paraphrase.

"I'll tell you what I think, and you tell me what you think, and we'll move on from there."

[David Jamieson]

In the land of online forums, you come to read and learn from others and then you reject others still.

No one has ever been convinced of anything in an online argument.
So, arm yourselves with feces and get to throwing a bigger pile.
That's all we're doing anyway.

It's interesting how we think we have time, or great and deep meaning in our lives etc. We really don't and we'd all be happier if we knew that, but it's just my opinion. :) The only value any of us has is what we can do for someone else.
What we do for ourselves is in preparation of service to others. In my view, if we don't do that and only work for ourselves, then we will be loathed or forgotten quickly in our lives an after our deaths.

People can be at a variance and that has a lot to do with the variable moods and ass hole states we can put ourselves into. We all do it and to deny it is to lie. lol. Oh sure, we can work on doing less of it, or veiling it, but hey, the bottom line is this, without you and your perception, as far as you and your perception are concerned, this world doesn't even exist. For you.

[YouKnowWho]

IMO, it's not worthy for B to continue the following discussion:

A: What should I ...?
B: You may try ...
C: What make you think that you are qualified to give A your opinion? Show me your fighting record, put up your cage fight clip, who have you killed lately? ...
B: ...

A: "Internal" is ...
B: IMO, "internal" is ...
A: You have no idea what "internal" is. You will need to find a good "internal" instructor ...
B: ...

If B continues that discussion, the argument will start. It's amazing how quickly a discussion can turn into "you vs. I" instead of "opinion A vs. opinion B".

The problem is if B does not continue after that, others may think that B does not stand on his ground and willing to fight back. Sometime it can be a lose-lose situation no matter which way you may take. :(

[bawang]

like that old japanese zen monk that grabs white woman student titties to awaken them to zen, i grab titties of kung fu people to awaken them to truth.

[jdhowland]

like that old japanese zen monk that grabs white woman student titties to awaken them to zen, i grab titties of kung fu people to awaken them to truth.

!OUCH!

that hurt.

[SPJ]

For example, whenever I have seen the words "internal" or "push", I just have to say something. 99% of the time, my opinion will offend someone. I can always have 2 options. To say whatever I want to say, or to say whatever people want to hear. If I can't be honest to myself, I may not respect myself enough.

What's your thought on this?

Say what you mean.

Mean what you say.

Post to inform.

Give away some useful info here and there.

Agree or disagree.

It all depends on context or conditions.


In short,

there are no perfect posts or posts that we may not argue about.

That is.

:)

[-N-]

Quite often when A expressed an opinion, B disagreed, if A

- respond to it, A will be trapped into a long argument.
- didn't respond to it, B will be offended.

Allow me to borrow Miqi's statement here:

"I don't argue, I just tell you, and you listen or not. All the best."

I find this may be the best way for online discussion. You put up your opinion and I put up mine. You don't expect me to agree with you. I don't expect you to agree with me either.

- You "tell" me how you feel. It's up to me to listen to you or not.
- I "tell" you how I feel. It's up to you to listen to me or not.

Please notice that the word "tell" is very important key word for this thread.

I have always loved to have a discussion environment like this. Sometime we my just be too cautious to choose our words inorder not to offend others. When we do that, we restrice ourselves to open our heart completely. It just takes away the fun of online discussion. I have been in another "internal" forum for a long time. Oneday I just realized that no matter how careful that I might choose my words, someone was always offended by my opinion. I just decide to leave that environment.

For example, whenever I have seen the words "internal" or "push", I just have to say something. 99% of the time, my opinion will offend someone. I can always have 2 options. To say whatever I want to say, or to say whatever people want to hear. If I can't be honest to myself, I may not respect myself enough.

What's your thought on this?

I wasn't going to respond, but your post was offensive.

[Miqi]

I often think – “I really understand the real yiquan. People could really learn a lot about the real yiquan by listening to me. There again, these hoaxers also really think they understand the real yiquan. And they also think that people could learn a lot about the real yiquan by listening to them. So how do I know it’s not me that’s the hoaxer?”


But then I think, don't be stupid - I understand the real yiquan. Listen to me, improve your understanding. Listen to them, become like them.

[YouKnowWho]

I wasn't going to respond, but your post was offensive.
Offensive? In what way?


Listen to me, ... Listen to them, ...

"Agree" may be a better word than "listen". I do think we need some confidence in online discussion. When some MMA guy said that TCMA sucks, we all hang ourselves at home, that will be very sad. :D

[Matthew]

I think it depends on your purpose in being on here.

If you want to just present your opinions, you can.

If you want to share, discuss, and aren't afraid of putting ideas through the "furnace" of others criticism/counterpoints, you can do that.

If you are looking to understand the western TCMA public community mindset for some reason - you can do that too

[-N-]

Offensive? In what way?


You're trying to trap me into a long arguement, aren't you?

[YouKnowWho]

Some definitions may be helpful here.

1. sharing - you express your opinion. You may not care about others opinions because you know that no matter what they may say, it won't change your mind..

2. discussion - Someone expresses his opinion, you ask question in order to understand his opinion better. You do care about others opinion because you may change your mind.

3. debating - You try to change others mind.

4. personal attack - It's about the person and not about the subject.

I'll try very hard not to get into 3 or 4. Once I received a PM that concerned a certain discussion. I told him that at this point of my life, I'm tired of argument. For some unknown reason, he replied back with an ugly note as if something I just said offend him. Even today, I still don't understand "I'm tire of argument" can offend anybody.

When you are tired of "debating", it doesn't mean that you are also tired of "sharing (benefit to others)" and "discussion (benefit to yourself)".

"I don't argue" means "I'm tired of argument". Which also mean "I'll try very hard not to get into the negative side of discussion - to prevent a problem from happening".

[YouKnowWho]

In another forum, I started a thread, "combat speed training". One guy expressed his opinion that he likes "slow speed training". I knew that no matter what I might say, he won't agree with me any way. I didn't bother to respond to his posts. At the end of many pages of discussion, that person suddenly put up a post, "I have tried to tell you that speed training is wrong. Why did you ignore my posts?" When I tried to avoid trouble but trouble still knock on my door, I truly don't know what to do after that.

The funny thing is after I left that forum, that person left that forum soon after me. As if the main purpose of his existence was to prove me to be wrong.

[Lucas]

Well that guy is wrong anyway.

[GeneChing]

Man I came here for a good argument.
Mr Vibrating No you didn't, you came here for an argument.
Man Well, an argument's not the same as contradiction.
Mr Vibrating It can be.
Man No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements to establish a definite proposition.
Mr Vibrating No it isn't.
Man Yes it is. It isn't just contradiction.
Mr Vibrating Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
Man But it isn't just saying 'No it isn't'.
Mr Vibrating Yes it is.
Man No it isn't, Argument is an intellectual process ... contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
Mr Vibrating No it isn't.
Man Yes it is.
Mr Vibrating Not at all.

Actually, I'm just trying to keep KungFuMagazine.com vital. Part of that is this forum.

[bawang]

In another forum, I started a thread, "combat speed training". One guy expressed his opinion that he likes "slow speed training". I knew that no matter what I might say, he won't agree with me any way. I didn't bother to respond to his posts. At the end of many pages of discussion, that person suddenly put up a post, "I have tried to tell you that speed training is wrong. Why did you ignore my posts?" When I tried to avoid trouble but trouble still knock on my door, I truly don't know what to do after that.

The funny thing is after I left that forum, that person left that forum soon after me. As if the main purpose of his existence was to prove me to be wrong.

you need to say, "i am john wang, famous shuai jiao master. come visit my school. if u DARE, poosy. if u DARE."

if someone disagree with me in wombat combat, i say, "god is the teacher, you are the student. and i am the lesson. gods lessons are so beautiful, so beautiful." then they scare and say sorrys.

[SPJ]

A little bit contest or argument is only healthy.

However, after pages of argument for argument sake.

Everyone bummed out.

The thread then derailed and was pushed into oblivion or died.

--

:(

[SPJ]

How to be on topic

and keep the conversation alive or going;

that is the question.

staying alive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=720mMkEckgI&feature=youtu.be


:)

[-N-]

if someone disagree with me in wombat combat, i say, "god is the teacher, you are the student. and i am the lesson. gods lessons are so beautiful, so beautiful." then they scare and say sorrys.

If you say this with a Chow Yun Fat accent, it will be very good.

[YouKnowWho]

keep the conversation alive or going;

To keep the conversation alive is different from argue for the sake of argument. If we just look at the WC forum, it's easy to see that endless argument going over there. Of course when you agree with someone, there isn't much to add. Sometime even if you may agree with that person 90%, just because the 10% that you don't agree with. To argue on that may be quite silly.

IMO, the following discussion should be avoided.

A: My opinion is ...
B: I agree with most of what you have said, but one part that I don't quite agree with is ...
A: That may be because you are lacking some basic training.
B: :mad:

B tries to keep the conversation going. A just ignores what B's agree part and starts personal attack. That's pretty sad.

Even worse, some personal attack just start in the early stage of the discussion.

A: I think sparring with gloves and sparring without gloves are ...
B: Are you stupid or something? ...
A: :mad:

How can we avoid all those? Any suggestion?

[Minghequan]

YouKnowWho:

IMO, the following discussion should be avoided.

A: My opinion is ...
B: I agree with most of what you have said, but one part that I don't quite agree with is ...
A: That may be because you are lacking some basic training.
B:

B tries to keep the conversation going. A just ignores what B's agree part and starts personal attack. That's pretty sad.

Even worse, some personal attack just start in the early stage of the discussion.

A: I think sparring with gloves and sparring without gloves are ...
B: Are you stupid or something? ...
A:

How can we avoid all those? Any suggestion?

May I suggest effective and reasonably quick Moderation. The process doesn't have to be long-winded nor all that hard. Simply apply the moderation to these types of comments as if you were in a Kungfu School in front of that person and or their teachers.

Most people "say" what they want here because they are not in in front of that person in person! Treat the discussion as you would a Wushu Guan and in remembering the basic tenets of not only Wude but just plain simply common courtesy and mutual respect. Those that want to make such negative comments should put their names to same. that would stop a heap just there!

Agree to disagre sure but moderate the personalised or even style based attacks or comments made and everyone gets along just fine.

Try this ... it's pretty simple but highly workable:


While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Treat your fellow members with respect you would in the Training Hall & in front of a Teacher. Do not attack or insult a person in an effort to elicit a negative response. You have a right to disagree, but please do so in a respectful manner

Those that don't like this .... well the door is always open for them to leave and or return once they comply with thois very simple rule!

But for the sake of this forum, for the sake of the arts ... please, let's do this!!!

For my vote, YouKnowWho sounds like he has the right attitude to be one such Moderator!

[SPJ]

To keep the conversation alive is different from argue for the sake of argument. If we just look at the WC forum, it's easy to see that endless argument going over there. Of course when you agree with someone, there isn't much to add. Sometime even if you may agree with that person 90%, just because the 10% that you don't agree with. To argue on that may be quite silly.

IMO, the following discussion should be avoided.

A: My opinion is ...
B: I agree with most of what you have said, but one part that I don't quite agree with is ...
A: That may be because you are lacking some basic training.
B: :mad:

B tries to keep the conversation going. A just ignores what B's agree part and starts personal attack. That's pretty sad.

Even worse, some personal attack just start in the early stage of the discussion.

A: I think sparring with gloves and sparring without gloves are ...
B: Are you stupid or something? ...
A: :mad:

How can we avoid all those? Any suggestion?

pick something that both agree

and build the conversation on that

such as boots for made for walking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl5yH4SwInk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVmcHzeZGv0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpwLIdScdrc

:)

[mawali]

like that old japanese zen monk that grabs white woman student titties to awaken them to zen, i grab titties of kung fu people to awaken them to truth.

You're the One, dude!

[SPJ]

yin and yang

make a point in each post.

readers or lurkers decide for themself.

:)

[Kymus]

like that old japanese zen monk that grabs white woman student titties to awaken them to zen, i grab titties of kung fu people to awaken them to truth.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAA

Bawang, I think that comment is sig-worthy!!

note to self: change signature :D:D

[YouKnowWho]

In another discussion, someone wrote the following and I like it very much. When people ignore your post, don't be depressed. That seed will grow somewhere, sometime.

但哪怕多一个人看到我写的东西，也不管他是赞同或者反对，但只要能引起他的思考，我写的，也就 是有价值的。
Even if just one person saw what I wrote, it doesn't matter whether he may agree or disagree, as long as it can cause him to think, my writing will still have it's value.

[YouKnowWho]

When you start a thread, you will get different opinions. Some people will agree with you and some people will not. If you respond to those posts that

- disagree with you, people will say that you start a thread so you can argue with other people.
- agree with you, people will say that you just want to hear what you want to hear.

If you don't respond to those threads that disagree with you, people will think that you just "ignore" them or "dis-respect" them. Their feeling will get hurt.

Sometime to ignore is to avoid argument. But to say that you don't allow other's opinions if they don't agree with your is not proper. IMO, if you start a thread, you have no right to prevent others from expressing their opinions.

[YouKnowWho]

Among this forum and 2 others forms, I have detected a general pattern that bother me quite a bit. I would like to discuss this with you guys.

You put up a clip. Someone said,

- Your structure is weak,
- You have exposed your center.
- Your body is not coordinated.
- Your opponent just extends his arm out for you.
- Your opponent didnot give you enough pressure.
- If you think this video is good, you muct be stupid.
- ....

It doesn't take long for this discussion to get into "personal attack". To be honest, we can always find some weakness in any clip. Sometime we cristicize a clip (myself included) for the sake of disussion. We may not realize that we not only insult the person in that clip. We may attack his whole style without knowing.

How can we avoid this problem? Your thought?

[Kymus]

I guess it depends on the video. If it's someone that's looking for constructive criticism, that's one thing. If it's not of someone involved in the discussion, then that's another thing.

If someone is asking for advice so they can improve, then I think people should give constructive criticism to help that person improve.

If someone puts up a video of them performing that they think is good but is really bad.. It's hard for people to resist negativity. It can also depend on the individual. Some people are not honest about what they do and so then they become a lightening rod and wonder why people don't respect them.

[MightyB]

I guess it depends on the video. If it's someone that's looking for constructive criticism, that's one thing. If it's not of someone involved in the discussion, then that's another thing.

If someone is asking for advice so they can improve, then I think people should give constructive criticism to help that person improve.

If someone puts up a video of them performing that they think is good but is really bad.. It's hard for people to resist negativity. It can also depend on the individual. Some people are not honest about what they do and so then they become a lightening rod and wonder why people don't respect them.

Hey now, my videos only mostly suck, and like I tell my wife - I may be sloppy, but I get the job done. :D

[MightyB]

If we just look at the WC forum, it's easy to see that endless argument going over there.


I actually want to learn Wing Chun for the sole purpose to hang out on the WC Forum.

[Kymus]

I actually want to learn Wing Chun for the sole purpose to hang out on the WC Forum.

Lol, B. If I'm ever close to you (or vice versa), I can teach you all you need to know about Wing Chun in a day :D.

Of course, I dun know nothing about all these lineage battles. :p

[-N-]

I wasn't going to respond, but your post was offensive.


Offensive? In what way?


You're trying to trap me into a long arguement, aren't you?


Just to be clear, I was making jokes to show my agreement with you :)

[YouKnowWho]

I actually want to learn Wing Chun for the sole purpose to hang out on the WC Forum.

If you cross train, you are not pure, those guys won't accept you as one of them. You have to train WC and WC only.

[YouKnowWho]

Just to be clear, I was making jokes to show my agreement with you :)
I understand, no worry on my part. :)

I like to use people's comments as a mirror to look at myself. Sometime it was not the opinion but the words that were used. When I was in another internal forum, I had upset too many "Taiji" guys. I had suggested them to integrate the "leg moves" into their system. Instead of treating it as a suggestion, most people treated it as "critiicize". I just found out that I had made the same mistake here not too long ago by trying to suggest WC guys to integrate "grabbing".

[Kymus]

When I was in another internal forum, I had upset too many "Taiji" guys. I had suggested them to integrate the "leg moves" into their system. Instead of treating it as a suggestion, most people treated it as "critiicize". I just found out that I had made the same mistake here not too long ago by trying to suggest WC guys to integrate "grabbing".

This sort of logic makes no sense to me. Not one single art has it all. Cross train, adapt, take what's useful for you.

[Syn7]

The difference between an open mind and a closed one. At least in that context, anyways.


"My style is the best, and so I challenge you!"

[YouKnowWho]

This sort of logic makes no sense to me. Not one single art has it all. Cross train, adapt, take what's useful for you.
If a wrestler is willing to train jump kick, I see not reason a striker won't train hip throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXNx5WDPXYU

[Kymus]

If a wrestler is willing to train jump kick, I see not reason a striker won't train hip throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXNx5WDPXYU

Makes sense to me.

[YouKnowWho]

If someone puts up a clip, what will be your comment? If you say:

- this guy has good skill, people may say that your standard is too low, and you just try to be a nice guy.
- his skill doesn't impress me, people may say that your standard is too high, and you try to prove that you are better than everybody.

It sounds like a lose-lose situation. No matter what your comment may be, you will get into argument.

[YouKnowWho]

No matter how many non-WC threads that I have started, we can never have the same kind of discussion volume as many WC threads have. Maybe if I said that my longfist is better than Yang, Jwing-Ming's longfist, some of his students may jump in and argue with me to death.

Maybe we just don't argue enough. Should we argue more?

[Kymus]

No matter how many non-WC threads that I have started, we can never have the same kind of discussion volume as many WC threads have.

I think people find it offensive to think that their art isn't complete. I've been crosstraining since very early on, so I'm all about adaptation.

But I think there's a difference between adaptation and changing everything you do.


Maybe we just don't argue enough. Should we argue more?

I think more martial artists need to get together with other martial artists and talk techniques and spar with people not from their school.

[YouKnowWho]

I think people find it offensive to think that their art isn't complete.
If you say that longfist is not complete, I'll say, "I agree with you 100%". If you say that SC is not complete, I'll still say, "I agree with you 100%". Sometime I just don't know I should belong to the majority or the minority.

When someone said, "This is against WC principle." I truly don't know what else to say after that. A flying knee is against SC principle (because both feet are off the ground) but I love to train it.

[Jimbo]

Since I've trained different MAs practically my whole life, I really don't mind admitting that no one art has everything. Some arts are more versatile, but that's it. And I don't think that it's disrespecting your art to admit that. I do think it's important, and even essential, to have a base art; one or perhaps two arts that form your personal nucleus. For others, only a single art/system will serve their MA needs their entire lives, without any need to go outside of that, and that's okay, too. Most people don't even train one art, much less stick with it for years and years.

Nobody can honestly say that any one art has it all. And anyone who would loudly argue that it does simply has an agenda or hasn't experienced enough.

As far as to argue or not to argue, sometimes it's entertaining, to a point. IF something useful comes up. And sometimes arguments run on and on, but very little is actually said. Would you prefer quantity or quality of discussion? If someone says "X art sucks," beyond maybe a couple responses to that is a waste of time.

[YouKnowWho]

When someone starts a thread, if you just say whatever that you want to say, everything will be fine. The problem starts when someone says something and you disagree with him, you make a comment, the argument or even personal attack will just start from there.

Can you just say whatever that you want to say, but don't get involve with others comments?

Here is an example of "say whatever that you want to say".

A: I like red color.
B: I think blue is pretty too.

Here is an example that "get involve with other's comment."

A: I like red color.
B: You must be stupid. Red is the ugliest color in the world.

[Syn7]

It's human nature. It can also be a very useful tool. Depends how you use it, I guess. Time and place, right...

You can argue a point w/o being offensive.

[YouKnowWho]

My question is, no matter how perfect someone's post may be, you can always find somewhere that you can express your opinion in a bit different. Why do you have to express yor opinion on top of others opinion? Why can't you just express your opinion independently?

Since you are not attacking anybody, it will be harder for others to attack you as well. The argument will never start.

It's better to say "This is how I feel ..." (you only express your opinion) than to say, "I disargee with you because ..." (you drag someone into your opinion).

When you say, "This is how I feeL ...", you don't expect others to agree with you. You also don't expect to change anybody's mind. Is that the best way for "online discussion"?

[YouKnowWho]

Say what you mean.

Mean what you say.

Post to inform.

Give away some useful info here and there.

Agree or disagree.

It all depends on context or conditions.


In short,

there are no perfect posts or posts that we may not argue about.

That is.

:)

I find SPJ had never argued with anybody here. Why? There is a great deal that we can learn from his posts. SPJ never got into any WC agrument. He just stayed out of WC discussion.

[David Jamieson]

I find SPJ had never argued with anybody here. Why? There is a great deal that we can learn from his posts. SPJ never got into any WC agrument. He just stayed out of WC discussion.

Anyone in their right mind stays out of the Wing Chun forums.
I peek in now and again and see the ever roiling, ever tumultuous subjects getting raked over the coals again and again.

I truly believe that the style that Wing Chun players hate the most is the same one they love the most. Such ambivalence. Not to mention the vitriol they have for each other.

An anomaly of the highest order when it comes to tcma.

It's right up there with "where do buddhist monks get off making violence?" :p

[YouKnowWho]

I truly believe that the style that Wing Chun players hate the most is the same one they love the most.

Why this kind of behavior doesn't happen in other TCMA discussion? I don't see our praying mantis guys agrue the same way as those WC guys do. So far I haven't heard any praying mantis guy claimed that his PM is better than other PM systems. Nobody bothers to find the PM ancient DNA. Nobody bothers to find what engine that their PM style may use either.

This were the ancient SC DNA. Do I give a dam? I don't.

http://imageshack.us/a/img859/982/deadlock.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img692/2203/sc4fu.jpg

[Jimbo]

I never heard of 'engines' or 'DNA' used as MA terms anywhere else before.

YKW, it seemed in earlier posts that you felt non-WC styles are not arguing enough. Which would you prefer?

Personally, I prefer discussion rather than arguments. Although admittedly, I've allowed myself to be pulled into a few slightly heated discussions, *briefly*, over the years. Even so, my policy is and always has been to speak online as I would if face to face with the other person...maybe even more politely online. Because spewing venom from the safety of one's keyboard shows a very obvious character flaw, IMO. And arguing never convinces the other person to your side, anyway. It only escalates the issue, each becomes more defensive, and nothing constructive is achieved.

There are more discussions, and therefore more arguments on the WC forum because, simply, there are far more WC practitioners in the West than any other CMA style, except for Taiji.

[YouKnowWho]

I was joking when I said, "we don't argue enough". I don't like to argue either (the main purpose of this thread). You are right, the non-WC guys in this forum may be the minority.

I know that I'll never change my mind. I also know that some of our members will never change their mind. Trying to waste effert to change others mind is a stupid thing to do IMO.

[PalmStriker]

If someone puts up a clip, what will be your comment? If you say:

- this guy has good skill, people may say that your standard is too low, and you just try to be a nice guy.
- his skill doesn't impress me, people may say that your standard is too high, and you try to prove that you are better than everybody.

It sounds like a lose-lose situation. No matter what your comment may be, you will get into argument.
If this is your skill set video, nobody will leave a nasty bad comment for fear of getting their ass kicked right through their computer screen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP-acRbxwpc

[YouKnowWho]

If both A and B have different opinions. You agree with A, but you don't agree with B.

You can respond to

- A as, "I agree with you because ..."
- B as, "I disagree with you because ..."
- nobody, but only state your opinion.

If you respond to

- A, people will say that you only want to hear what you like to hear (nothing wrong about that).
- B, people will say that you are looking for argument and may be even "stalking".
- nobody, people may say that you don't even read other's opinions.

It's the art of discusson. Which approach will you take?

[Syn7]

All of the above. Knowing when to do what is what makes it an art. Some are just better at it than others.

And like MA's, some people aren't as good as they think they are.

[YouKnowWho]

Sometime you may get into argument just because the word that you use. I just find out that the word "combat" can upset many people. I don't know why. I thought combat = martial. Is there another better word to replace it? Any thought?

[-N-]

Sometime you may get into argument just because the word that you use. I just find out that the word "combat" can upset many people. I don't know why. I thought combat = martial. Is there another better word to replace it? Any thought?

Depends on what you were trying to say. What was the comment that got people upset? Were they airy fairy chi hippies?

[YouKnowWho]

Depends on what you were trying to say. What was the comment that got people upset? Were they airy fairy chi hippies?
I said:

One can use sport to test his combat skill.

Someone's said:

I hate the "I train for combat" stuff, that's what soldiers do and not what people do in a Dojo.

[Jimbo]

Sometime you may get into argument just because the word that you use. I just find out that the word "combat" can upset many people. I don't know why. I thought combat = martial. Is there another better word to replace it? Any thought?

If the word 'combat' upsets them, that is their hang up. Maybe they associate the word with 'hyper-macho, non-military, camo-wearing wannabes' or 'mall ninjas'; but if you're in a self-defensive situation, where you have no choice but to physically engage your attacker(s), well, that's combat. Because any time that happens, your life can be endangered, no matter how serious or minor it may seem at the outset.

Combat can refer to armed forces, but it can also refer to any one-on-one situation as well. If someone is training to fight (and if you're training MA for self-defense, it's training to fight on some level), then you are training combat skill.

The ones with the problem with 'combat' as a word sound like those MAists who obsess and nitpick over inconsequential little details and ignore the reason why MAs were created at all. It's not as if the word 'combat' is a racial slur. Besides, if someone doesn't want to say 'combat' themselves, they can substitute another word. Sort of a hassle, don't you think?

BTW, in sport fighting scenarios (boxing, MMA, etc.) the participants are referred to as 'combatants'.

[YouKnowWho]

If the word 'combat' upsets them, that is their hang up.
It's so funny that when I used the word "combat", people got upset. Latter on someone used words such as, "battlefield, military, personal combat, ending someone's life, real battle", and it was OK. I could have a good reason to argue, but it may be very childish thing to do.

[YouKnowWho]

If you don't want to argue.

If someone said, "Please explain ..." and you know that no matter what you may answer, he will argue right back at you. Will you respond to his question?

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you don't want to argue.

If someone said, "Please explain ..." and you know that no matter what you may answer, he will argue right back at you. Will you respond to his question?

Sure, because even if he doesn't get it, maybe someone reading the post will.
When we post we don't always do it for the benefit of the direct discussion.

I don't try to convince anyone of anything anymore, I do put out my views and points and explain why and leave it up to the reader to decide if it is valid or not.

[YouKnowWho]

Sure, because even if he doesn't get it, maybe someone reading the post will.
When we post we don't always do it for the benefit of the direct discussion.

I don't try to convince anyone of anything anymore, I do put out my views and points and explain why and leave it up to the reader to decide if it is valid or not.
You are absolute right on this. You are thinking much deeper in this than I'm.

Sometime I may forget that I should look at this as "express my opinion" instead of "arguing with any particular person".

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are absolute right on this. You are thinking much deeper in this than I'm.

Sometime I may forget that I should look at this as "express my opinion" instead of "arguing with any particular person".

You've been doing MA for longer than I have been alive and I have 35 years of MA training.
You knowledge is base don experience and that makes it priceless.

That said, "peals before swine", know what I mean?

[YouKnowWho]

When someone asks, "Is this really WC?" If you say,

- "Yes", people will say, "You don't know what really WC is."
- "No", people will still say, "You don't know what really WC is."

Thread like that is just like a trap that can pull you into endless argument. If you don't like to argue, you may want to stay away from those threads.

What interest to me is, nobody ever asked:

- Is this really boxing?
- Is this really wrestling?
- Is this really SPM?
- Is this really longfist?
- ...

Your thought?

[YouKnowWho]

Many threads are just one person tried to express his opinion. That person can't care less about different opinions. If you agree with him, you will be his friend. If you don't, you will be his enemy. If you find out that a thread is just "I preach and you listen", will you participe that discussion?

[Syn7]

Many threads are just one person tried to express his opinion. That person can't care less about different opinions. If you agree with him, you will be his friend. If you don't, you will be his enemy. If you find out that a thread is just "I preach and you listen", will you participe that discussion?

Only if you're in the mood for a flame war.


If you believe something and you say it in public, chances are you are pretty tied to that idea, unless otherwise stated.

For example. You(Johnswang) will make a thread and ask a question. Others will make a thread and make a statement. These are two very different things with two very different intentions.

It also really depends on the topic. Not everything is so subjective.

[YouKnowWho]

Only if you're in the mood for a flame war.

I will never be in the mode for any flame war. I try to say whatever that I like to say. If someone responds

- friendly, I'll continue my discussion with that person.
- unfriendly, I'll just ignore him.

Life is too short to waste time in argument.

The thread "to slap or not to slap" is a good example. Many years ago, I would try very hard to convince people that my way is better. Today, I just express my opinion as one of many other opinions.

[Syn7]

That's good, but an argument doesn't have to be negative.

So I am I right to understand that for you it isn't about "argue", it's about manners, basic respect and congeniality?

When I see the word "argument" I don't think fight, I think debate.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When someone asks, "Is this really WC?" If you say,

- "Yes", people will say, "You don't know what really WC is."
- "No", people will still say, "You don't know what really WC is."

Thread like that is just like a trap that can pull you into endless argument. If you don't like to argue, you may want to stay away from those threads.

What interest to me is, nobody ever asked:

- Is this really boxing?
- Is this really wrestling?
- Is this really SPM?
- Is this really longfist?
- ...

Your thought?

That is why WC is the red-headed step child of TCMA.
It's not the system, the system is great, its the practitioners.

[Syn7]

That is why WC is the red-headed step child of TCMA.
It's not the system, the system is great, its the practitioners.

I think the cultural phenomenon around the art draws in those who choose to practice for the wrong reasons. You see it all over the MA world, but it seems to be particularly prevalent in the WC world of LARPer mystery and intrigue.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the cultural phenomenon around the art draws in those who choose to practice for the wrong reasons. You see it all over the MA world, but it seems to be particularly prevalent in the WC world of LARPer mystery and intrigue.

While it may not BE that way, it certainly SEEMS that way.

[YouKnowWho]

In the

- longfist system, some people brought in Baji or praying mantis flavor into it. All longfist guys would encourage that kind of behavior.
- SC system, some people brought in western wrestling or Judo flavor into it. All SC guys would also encourage that kind of behavior.
- WC system, if you bring anything new into WC, people would say that your system is no longer "pure". Worse than that, people would say that because you have not mastered your own WC system, that's why you need to borrow skills from other styles.

[Lucas]

is a superiority complex.

[Jimbo]

In the

- longfist system, some people brought in Baji or praying mantis flavor into it. All longfist guys would encourage that kind of behavior.
- SC system, some people brought in western wrestling or Judo flavor into it. All SC guys would also encourage that kind of behavior.
- WC system, if you bring anything new into WC, people would say that your system is no longer "pure". Worse than that, people would say that because you have not mastered your own WC system, that's why you need to borrow skills from other styles.

IMO, the more 'specialized' a system is, in general there is more tendency among (many of) its practitioners to argue for style purity. Systems like Long Fist, CLF, etc., are 'all-around' systems and, thus, more inclusive. It's not such a big deal to bring other ideas or skill sets into them, if one chooses.

[YouKnowWho]

In another forum, I saw some threads such as:

- Proud of your Karate?
- Will you choose TKD as a martial art?
- Do you train no-gi Judo?
- ...

If you get into any of those discussion, you will definitely involve some argument.

[Kellen Bassette]

In another forum, I saw some threads such as:

- Proud of your Karate?
- Will you choose TKD as a martial art?
- Do you train no-gi Judo?
- ...

If you get into any of those discussion, you will definitely involve some argument.

Those are what we call "loaded questions." :D

[bawang]

In the

- longfist system, some people brought in Baji or praying mantis flavor into it. All longfist guys would encourage that kind of behavior.
- SC system, some people brought in western wrestling or Judo flavor into it. All SC guys would also encourage that kind of behavior.
- WC system, if you bring anything new into WC, people would say that your system is no longer "pure". Worse than that, people would say that because you have not mastered your own WC system, that's why you need to borrow skills from other styles.

wing chun guys obsess about being pure, because their soul is impure.

[Syn7]

Purity is a lack of sophistication.

[TaichiMantis]

When I first discovered martial arts I wanted to share my journey, hear about and learn from other's journey, learn about the history and cultural background of my style, etc. I was very enthusiastic on various boards and forums, even moderated for awhile. I agree that good mods can help curtail and educate folks on avoiding personal attacks. Tolerance is needed toward newbies and the many questions that get asked over and over again. Masters, Sifus, students of various levels interact with various levels of anonymity on this forum. Levels of "knowledge" in martial arts or the style you practice differ greatly. We are all at different levels of self knowledge. Also, communication in print is tricky for many reasons, especially for those whose first language is not English.
This forum is full of testosterone with very few female perspectives...

Why am I still here and what is my point?

My real world includes a part called martial arts. It is not a huge part and the time and energy I have put into it has varied over the past ten years. I feel I have a level of competence and confidence to defend myself. Others who have crossed hands, trained, sparred with me can see this. My teachers see this. They, and I also know where I am lacking. I don't need a forum for affirmation or criticism. Head knowledge and body knowledge are two different things, tricky to discuss on a forum. Chinese martial arts, are definitely helping me more with the mind body spirit connection and I am grateful my Sifu knows the martial and healing side of our style.

I do enjoy reading the posts of many on this board...others not so much. What have I learned? In the words of Ecclesiastes 1:9
New International Version (NIV)
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

:D

[YouKnowWho]

What's wrong with the following 2 conversions?

A: I have different opinion on this?
B: Who are you? How long have you trained? Who is your teacher?
A: I'm ...., I have trained TCMA for ... years, my teacher was ...
B: Do you come here to show your pen!s size?

A: I have different opinion on this?
B: Who are you? How long have you trained? Who is your teacher?
A: I'm ...., I have trained TCMA for 6 months, I don't have teacher. I learn TCMA from online clips ...
B: Since you are nobody, you should just shout up and let adults talk here.

Are human being truly this evil?

[Syn7]

What's wrong with the following 2 conversions?

A: I have different opinion on this?
B: Who are you? How long have you trained? Who is your teacher?
A: I'm ...., I have trained TCMA for ... years, my teacher was ...
B: Do you come here to show your pen!s size?

A: I have different opinion on this?
B: Who are you? How long have you trained? Who is your teacher?
A: I'm ...., I have trained TCMA for 6 months, I don't have teacher. I learn TCMA from online clips ...
B: Since you are nobody, you should just shout up and let adults talk here.

Are human being truly this evil?

No. That's not evil, it's misguided. People are people, and a personality clash or poor social skills doesn't really have anything to do with evil. In a loose sense it is about morality, but one should be careful when using such interactions to pigeon hole and stereotype people. Especially as evil. That's just crazy.

It gets even murkier when talking about subjective topics like fighting. There are wrong ways to fight, but there is no right way to fight. Just better ways in certain situations given certain, and many, variables. It's different than when talking about something more objective where there is a definite answer and anyone who disagrees is plain wrong. It shouldn't be a surprise when such subjective matters that appeal to peoples passions end in conflict. You see it all the time, why should this be any different?

[Jimbo]

When I first discovered martial arts I wanted to share my journey, hear about and learn from other's journey, learn about the history and cultural background of my style, etc. I was very enthusiastic on various boards and forums, even moderated for awhile. I agree that good mods can help curtail and educate folks on avoiding personal attacks. Tolerance is needed toward newbies and the many questions that get asked over and over again. Masters, Sifus, students of various levels interact with various levels of anonymity on this forum. Levels of "knowledge" in martial arts or the style you practice differ greatly. We are all at different levels of self knowledge. Also, communication in print is tricky for many reasons, especially for those whose first language is not English.
This forum is full of testosterone with very few female perspectives...

Why am I still here and what is my point?

My real world includes a part called martial arts. It is not a huge part and the time and energy I have put into it has varied over the past ten years. I feel I have a level of competence and confidence to defend myself. Others who have crossed hands, trained, sparred with me can see this. My teachers see this. They, and I also know where I am lacking. I don't need a forum for affirmation or criticism. Head knowledge and body knowledge are two different things, tricky to discuss on a forum. Chinese martial arts, are definitely helping me more with the mind body spirit connection and I am grateful my Sifu knows the martial and healing side of our style.

I do enjoy reading the posts of many on this board...others not so much. What have I learned? In the words of Ecclesiastes 1:9
New International Version (NIV)
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

:D

Thank you sharing your perspective.

[YouKnowWho]

I have seen someone starts a thread in another forum as:

"This is my new article ... Please feel free to share with others ..."

Many people gave feed back on the OP's article. The OP just defended his article and turned down those suggestions one by one.

- First, he didn't ask for different opinions. He just said ," feel free to share ...". You can't criticize him not willing to accept different opinions.

- Second, even if he did, he still had right to keep his opinion without changing.

Will you start a thread discussion that you know your opinion is fixed and won't be changed no matter what others may say? What may be the reason that you want to start that discussion thread in the first?

Your thought?

[Lucas]

What may be the reason that you want to start that discussion thread in the first?



seeking praise or looking to gloat. self motivation driven by a need to feed the ego.

[YouKnowWho]

seeking praise or looking to gloat. self motivation driven by a need to feed the ego.

First I thought that might be the motivation behind it. I then realize that it won't make sense. We just don't see Muhammad Ali joints in any MA form and share his experience. Why?

If you are good, the more that you have expressed your opinion, the less mystery that people will think about you. The moment people think that you are just another human being, people won't care about you any more.

If Bruce Lee is still alive today, joined in our WC form, and argue with our WC members here whether his WC is pure or not, will people still respect him after that?

If you are

- somebody, arguing will make you become nobody.
- nobody, can you truly become somebody by arguing on the internet forum? I strongly doubt about that.

[Jimbo]

First I thought that might be the motivation behind it. I then realize that it won't make sense. We just don't see Muhammad Ali joints in any MA form and share his experience. Why?

If you are good, the more that you have expressed your opinion, the less mystery that people will think about you. The moment people think that you are just another human being, people won't care about you any more.

If Bruce Lee is still alive today, joined in our WC form, and argue with our WC members here whether his WC is pure or not, will people still respect him after that?

If you are

- somebody, arguing will make you become nobody.
- nobody, can you truly become somebody by arguing on the internet forum? I strongly doubt about that.

When someone has achievements in MA (or anything, for that matter), and they come on forums and say things like, "I've done this, this, this, and this. So what have you achieved? You haven't achieved anything like me...", that tarnishes them in my eyes, no matter how much good they've accomplished.

If you've accomplished good things, or have helped other people, etc., you should be happy within yourself, or for them, and not have to boast about it, or get into a p!$$ing contest with someone else over who's accomplished more in life or helped more people.

[wenshu]

First I thought that might be the motivation behind it. I then realize that it won't make sense. We just don't see Muhammad Ali joints in any MA form and share his experience. Why?

If you are good, the more that you have expressed your opinion, the less mystery that people will think about you. The moment people think that you are just another human being, people won't care about you any more.

If Bruce Lee is still alive today, joined in our WC form, and argue with our WC members here whether his WC is pure or not, will people still respect him after that?

If you are

- somebody, arguing will make you become nobody.
- nobody, can you truly become somebody by arguing on the internet forum? I strongly doubt about that.

That's what publicists are for.

For some reason many prominent individuals choose to roll in the mud with plebes on the internet. It's almost always as entertaining as it is in poor judgment.

Considering how much you perseverate about that Judo forum anecdote maybe you have issues when people don't care what you think?


When someone has achievements in MA (or anything, for that matter), and they come on forums and say things like, "I've done this, this, this, and this. So what have you achieved? You haven't achieved anything like me...", that tarnishes them in my eyes, no matter how much good they've accomplished.

If you've accomplished good things, or have helped other people, etc., you should be happy within yourself, or for them, and not have to boast about it, or get into a p!$$ing contest with someone else over who's accomplished more in life or helped more people.

I find even unaccomplished people who talk about themselves distasteful. I almost always suffer a self induced cringe whenever I catch myself doing it. Like right now sort of.

"I've been talking about myself for the last hour, why don't you tell me about myself for a while."

[Jimbo]

I find even unaccomplished people who talk about themselves distasteful. I almost always suffer a self induced cringe whenever I catch myself doing it. Like right now sort of.

"I've been talking about myself for the last hour, why don't you tell me about myself for a while."

It's fine to discuss things about one's self, regarding experiences, etc. Otherwise, there would be nothing to share on forums. The problems arise when some people try to lift themselves up by disparaging others' accomplishments as compared to their own.

[Syn7]

It depends on the topic. If there is no one right answer, that's one thing. But sometimes people are simply wrong about certain facts, and pointing that out isn't a bad thing or an ego thing. Or at least it doesn't have to be.

[YouKnowWho]

It's fine to discuss things about one's self, regarding experiences, etc. Otherwise, there would be nothing to share on forums.

If you

- don't talk about yourself, people may say that you try to hide behind the keyboard.
- do, people may either treat you as a beginner (if you only have 6 month training) or people may assume you are bragging (if you have over 20 years training).

There is no win-win situation. This is the most difficult part of the online discussion.

[Syn7]

You reading Zeno or something?

If you

- Hold your hands apart at 1 meter and decrease that space by 50% and repeat that process of halving the distance...

Will you

- Ever be able to clap your hands?

[YouKnowWho]

You reading Zeno or something?

If you

- Hold your hands apart at 1 meter and decrease that space by 50% and repeat that process of halving the distance...

Will you

- Ever be able to clap your hands?

You will never be able to clap your hands

[YouKnowWho]

Sometime it's better to say, "I think that you've forgotten this and that..." instead of saying, "You don't know sh!t." or "You are clueless."

The communication skill is very important. If you talk like a 10 years old, people will treat you like a 10 years old.

[Syn7]

It's also important to remember that taking criticism honestly is a far greater accomplishment than simply being courteous. Lots of pitchers, very few catchers. It's the perfect recipe for negativity.

The problem with saying "I think you've forgotten" is that sometimes it's blatantly obvious that that is not the case. Sometimes you should call people out. Putting somebody on the defensive isn't always a bad thing. People who truly want to build their knowledge and who can take criticism will usually appreciate this, especially when assumptions are called to question. That is a net benefit in my book. The ones who don't appreciate it are the ones who are simply pimping a viewpoint they take for granted.

So what happened to you in the judo forum was bull**** because there was no constructive criticism at all. But had they said, "hey, you don't know judo and here is why and what you aren't understanding" then you can come back with a rebuttal and hopefully gain some knowledge, regardless of the tone. Whether it begins as "hey ****witt" or "Greetings Mr. Wang". As long as it stays in the realm of constructive, I personally really don't care how I'm treated to a certain point. I'll take some abuse to pick somebody's brain.

[YouKnowWho]

In order to avoid argument, you may have to hide your true intention and can't speak in your own honest words. Sometime I don't know that will be a good thing to do. If you can't speak freely (try not to offend anybody), will you still have good time in online discussion?

If you receive social security check, and if you say that you prefer smaller government in order to please those tea party members, it won't be good IMO.

[Syn7]

Your premise is based on the assumption that argument = bad, and that simply isn't always the case. Know what I mean? That's what I was referring to in the last post.

IMO, in order to have the most productive conversation, both sides have to be able to think critically and give and take criticism in proportion.

Personally, I can't stand those elephant in the room, walking on egg shell, lolly gagging conversations. That's freakin' torture to someone like me.

That's why I love text messages. I don't feel the need to say "hi, how are you...."
I can just say what I need to say and be done with it.

That isn't to say I don't like casual nothing conversations, they just can't be about meaningful things. I can bull**** with the best of em, but there's a time and place.


I understand your analogy about the social security thing, and I agree with the sentiment, but it's a pretty biased argument. There are a ton of variables when it comes to making government more efficient w/o gutting social security, or any "entitlement" programs at all.

[YouKnowWho]

What will you do if someone asks for an online challenge (or asks you to fight his teacher)?

If you

- accept, people may say that you have macho attitude.
- decline, people may say that you are coward.

It's a lose-loss situation either way.

When people asks you to put up a full contact fight clip, if in that clip, you

- beat up someone, people may say that your opponent is weak.
- got beaten up by someone, people may say that your are weak.

It's also a lose-lose situation either way.

[Syn7]

What will you do if someone asks for an online challenge (or asks you to fight his teacher)?

If you

- accept, people may say that you have macho attitude.
- decline, people may say that you are coward.

It's a lose-loss situation either way.

When people asks you to put up a full contact fight clip, if in that clip, you

- beat up someone, people may say that your opponent is weak.
- got beaten up by someone, people may say that your are weak.

It's also a lose-lose situation either way.


Only if you care what they think. Why let people who would do that get under your skin? Do you really care if some guy online thinks your a coward? Or somebody you see everyday even?

[YouKnowWho]

Only if you care what they think. Why let people who would do that get under your skin? Do you really care if some guy online thinks your a coward? Or somebody you see everyday even?

That's a very good point. Those who needs to prove himself usually doesn't have much confidence in himself.

Yesterday when I walked on the Pismo Beach with my dog, I met a 220 lb guy who did some solo kicks and punches on the beach. I walked toward him and introduced myself. I found out that he is a Kempo, Hipkido guy, and wrestler. We will start to meet on Monday to do some partner drills first. After we have known each other better and build some mutual trust, we will start some wrestling. Later on we will move into sparring.

After I have moved to California for 5 years, I finally find a training/wrestling/sparring partner. I intend to keep him as long as I can.

[Lucas]

congrats, i know you have been looking for a training partner for a long time, i hope that guy works out

[YouKnowWho]

congrats, i know you have been looking for a training partner for a long time, i hope that guy works out

I hope so too. I love to work out with big guys. That extra body weight is always a challenge.

[Syn7]

That's a very good point. Those who needs to prove himself usually doesn't have much confidence in himself.

Yesterday when I walked on the Pismo Beach with my dog, I met a 220 lb guy who did some solo kicks and punches on the beach. I walked toward him and introduced myself. I found out that he is a Kempo, Hipkido guy, and wrestler. We will start to meet on Monday to do some partner drills first. After we have known each other better and build some mutual trust, we will start some wrestling. Later on we will move into sparring.

After I have moved to California for 5 years, I finally find a training/wrestling/sparring partner. I intend to keep him as long as I can.

Man... you have absolutely nothing to prove to anyone. Anybody with any sense can see that you know what you're talking about, whether they agree with everything you say or not. Respect where respect is due, know what I mean. People who don't understand that aren't really worth the time anyways. That's a personal journey they need to make on their own.


That's sweet about the partner. Good luck with that. I know how that can be. I'm in a new place for awhile and when I got here I didn't really know anyone, so it was hard to find people to roll with. I found one wrestler so far. He's pretty good and outweighs me by like 30 pounds, so that's cool. But all he does is wrestling. Better than nothing.

But to my surprise, I met 4 b-boys in one day and now I have somebody to jam with too. :D Three of them are about ten years younger than I am, so it's cool to be around people who are still hungry. It motivates me a lot. It's a good fit. I bring experience and knowledge, they bring a ton of energy and enthusiasm. It woke me up a bit and now I can feel myself getting back into the shape I was in when I was back home. It's crazy how fast it can slip away from you. I had to be careful at first. Too much time with my face in the books. Nice to get that balance back.