The irrationality of gloved sparring

[guy b.]

Gloves change the way you hit. Why do people value gloved sparring so much when it is impossible to fight that way ungloved?

Gloved sparring is worthless because:

a) it encourages you to hit in a way that will mean you break your hand on the first or second punch, unless you are a girl or a small child

b) it trains false reactions, in both the puncher and punchee, that only hold when gloves are worn

c) it instills dangerous false confidence based on a model that is not close to reality. Gloved sparring is in some ways the opposite of Kano's genius in revolutionising grappling with randori. Randori removes the dangerous techniques while allowing realistic grappling training with full resistance. Gloved sparring actually accentuates the dangerous techniques while providing a completely false framework of action and reaction.

discuss

[Wayfaring]

discuss

Clueless. Thank you. :rolleyes:

[anerlich]

If you don't like gloved sparring, don't do it.

Just don't expect everyone else to agree with you, and above all DON'T try to start a pointless argument on the forum.

[jesper]

Gloves change the way you hit. Why do people value gloved sparring so much when it is impossible to fight that way ungloved?

Gloved sparring is worthless because:

a) it encourages you to hit in a way that will mean you break your hand on the first or second punch, unless you are a girl or a small child

b) it trains false reactions, in both the puncher and punchee, that only hold when gloves are worn

c) it instills dangerous false confidence based on a model that is not close to reality. Gloved sparring is in some ways the opposite of Kano's genius in revolutionising grappling with randori. Randori removes the dangerous techniques while allowing realistic grappling training with full resistance. Gloved sparring actually accentuates the dangerous techniques while providing a completely false framework of action and reaction.

discuss

hahaha and since I need to write some more text so hahaha

[EternalSpring]

"The Irrationality of Gloved Sparring" by someone who has never sparred with gloves before.

[GlennR]

Gloves change the way you hit. Why do people value gloved sparring so much when it is impossible to fight that way ungloved?

Gloved sparring is worthless because:

a) it encourages you to hit in a way that will mean you break your hand on the first or second punch, unless you are a girl or a small child

b) it trains false reactions, in both the puncher and punchee, that only hold when gloves are worn

c) it instills dangerous false confidence based on a model that is not close to reality. Gloved sparring is in some ways the opposite of Kano's genius in revolutionising grappling with randori. Randori removes the dangerous techniques while allowing realistic grappling training with full resistance. Gloved sparring actually accentuates the dangerous techniques while providing a completely false framework of action and reaction.

discuss

A) nonsense
B) nonsense
C) nonsense

Honestly have I lie down, a nice cup of tea, gather your senses, call a boxing gym, enrol, train there for a few months and come and see if you can pose the same questions.

[tc101]

Gloves change the way you hit. Why do people value gloved sparring so much when it is impossible to fight that way ungloved?

Gloved sparring is worthless because:

a) it encourages you to hit in a way that will mean you break your hand on the first or second punch, unless you are a girl or a small child

b) it trains false reactions, in both the puncher and punchee, that only hold when gloves are worn

c) it instills dangerous false confidence based on a model that is not close to reality. Gloved sparring is in some ways the opposite of Kano's genius in revolutionising grappling with randori. Randori removes the dangerous techniques while allowing realistic grappling training with full resistance. Gloved sparring actually accentuates the dangerous techniques while providing a completely false framework of action and reaction.

discuss

You may want to look at the fighters gloved sparring has produced over the last 150 years.

[guy b.]

You may want to look at the fighters gloved sparring has produced over the last 150 years.

The fighters fighting with gloves on you mean? If sports competition is your aim then gloved sparring is a good idea. If not then not.

[tc101]

The fighters fighting with gloves on you mean? If sports competition is your aim then gloved sparring is a good idea. If not then not.

I am saying look at the skill levels produced by sport fighters wearing gloves. Those skills don't just evaporate when you take the gloves off. A good boxer remains a good boxer even when he doesn't have on gloves or have his cup or mouthpiece or even headgear.

[Frost]

The fighters fighting with gloves on you mean? If sports competition is your aim then gloved sparring is a good idea. If not then not.

how many sports fighters have you known, seriously you are pretty dumb if you really think this stuff and arent just trolling

what is the option if not gloved sparring, chisao, pulled punches? no contact? because that really has been shown to produce good street fighters hasnt it............
it still amazes me that people gloss over the fact WSL was a gloved up boxer before wing chun

[k gledhill]

Gloves change the way you hit. Why do people value gloved sparring so much when it is impossible to fight that way ungloved?

Gloved sparring is worthless because:

a) it encourages you to hit in a way that will mean you break your hand on the first or second punch, unless you are a girl or a small child

b) it trains false reactions, in both the puncher and punchee, that only hold when gloves are worn

c) it instills dangerous false confidence based on a model that is not close to reality. Gloved sparring is in some ways the opposite of Kano's genius in revolutionising grappling with randori. Randori removes the dangerous techniques while allowing realistic grappling training with full resistance. Gloved sparring actually accentuates the dangerous techniques while providing a completely false framework of action and reaction.

discuss


Gloves, 4-6 oz mma style, are great for vt sparring, they allow intercepting lines and all our hand techniques. Light contact with bare knuckles will cut a lip as soon as look at it.
I do mix up sparring and drilling with or without. Knowing when to use open hand strikes on guys who come in head down is important in bare handed fights to avoid injuries and allow easy 100 % power shots with no fear of hand injury to skulls. It is from sparring injuries that you learn what to avoid and what to adopt before doing it for real and a guy drops his head as you punch.

Larger gloves impede vt techniques. One of our major hand concepts is shut down if we can't strike using a specific line. Try this with 12-oz + boxing gloves and you end up striking in parallel and trade punches down the center. It would induce head slips to compensate for lack of arm interception.

[k gledhill]

I am saying look at the skill levels produced by sport fighters wearing gloves. Those skills don't just evaporate when you take the gloves off. A good boxer remains a good boxer even when he doesn't have on gloves or have his cup or mouthpiece or even headgear.

It's not the skill it's the rule he is bound by, using the one side of the fist. Hitting with knuckles in bare handed fights can be injured if the opponent head butts the hands. A reason gloves where introduced.
I have seen security guys who box injure their hands hitting heads with no gloves. They like the open palm strikes I showed them.

[tc101]

It's not the skill it's the rule he is bound by, using the one side of the fist. Hitting with knuckles in bare handed fights can be injured if the opponent head butts the hands. A reason gloves where introduced.
I have seen security guys who box injure their hands hitting heads with no gloves. They like the open palm strikes I showed them.

It depends on the sport since some sports unlike boxing allow you to hit with hammerfists, backfists and the like. I agree you can hurt your hand and that gloves provide protection. This protection is what allows you to really hit and to do it much much more often and o develop better skill faster since you don't need to stop practicing due to hand injury. In a real fight or even competition an injury may happen but you will still have the skill and the injury often doesn't slow you down like Jones broken toe or Coutures broken arm.

Open hand strikes are an option but don't have same effect.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gloves change the way you hit. Why do people value gloved sparring so much when it is impossible to fight that way ungloved?

Gloved sparring is worthless because:

a) it encourages you to hit in a way that will mean you break your hand on the first or second punch, unless you are a girl or a small child

b) it trains false reactions, in both the puncher and punchee, that only hold when gloves are worn

c) it instills dangerous false confidence based on a model that is not close to reality. Gloved sparring is in some ways the opposite of Kano's genius in revolutionising grappling with randori. Randori removes the dangerous techniques while allowing realistic grappling training with full resistance. Gloved sparring actually accentuates the dangerous techniques while providing a completely false framework of action and reaction.

discuss


And once more it is shown why WC is the red headed step-child of the MA.

[k gledhill]

It depends on the sport since some sports unlike boxing allow you to hit with hammerfists, backfists and the like. I agree you can hurt your hand and that gloves provide protection. This protection is what allows you to really hit and to do it much much more often and o develop better skill faster since you don't need to stop practicing due to hand injury. In a real fight or even competition an injury may happen but you will still have the skill and the injury often doesn't slow you down like Jones broken toe or Coutures broken arm.

Open hand strikes are an option but don't have same effect.

You mentioned boxing , I replied with boxing issues. Sure we can fight with one arm using Bil Gee too for exactly this reason.
Yes when I hit guys with an open hand I know the results from experience of real fights thanks.

[MightyB]

People that have never hit anybody Never ever hurt their hands if and when they actually hit somebody. :rolleyes:

Great logic!

[MightyB]

And now a word from our sponsor:

These are inexpensive and don't hinder your hands too much. (http://www.martialartsmart.com/14-010.html)

These cost a little more, but again don't hinder (http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-300.html)

These offer a bit more protection, but they'll hinder a bit (http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-030.html)

These (http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-590w.html) and These (http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-580.html)cost a little more and they take more courage to use, but they'll give you a margin of safety and almost no hand restriction.

[k gledhill]

And now a word from our sponsor:

These are inexpensive and don't hinder your hands too much. (http://www.martialartsmart.com/14-010.html)

These cost a little more, but again don't hinder (http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-300.html)

These offer a bit more protection, but they'll hinder a bit (http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-030.html)

These (http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-590w.html) and These (http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-580.html)cost a little more and they take more courage to use, but they'll give you a margin of safety and almost no hand restriction.

I have students buy their own choice based off what i mentioned earlier. the first link for striking in drills, but the stitching that divides the fingers tends to break easily.
A better quality light glove without too much wrist wrapping is good for power striking in lat Sao Jik chun drills.

[MightyB]

These (http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-590w.html) and These (http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-580.html)cost a little more and they take more courage to use, but they'll give you a margin of safety and almost no hand restriction.

The first ones on this one have a palm bar like a bag glove, so they can't be used. The light grappling gloves are good, and they keep Gene employed. And like k gledhill said, quality matters - so always measure quality with price.

[k gledhill]

Open palm style are perfect.

[MightyB]

Open palm style are perfect.

True - but these don't pay Gene's bills and keep the forum open.

[k gledhill]

True - but these don't pay Gene's bills and keep the forum open.

Aha ! So follow genes links.

[Jimbo]

Gloves change the way you hit. Why do people value gloved sparring so much when it is impossible to fight that way ungloved?

Gloved sparring is worthless because:

a) it encourages you to hit in a way that will mean you break your hand on the first or second punch, unless you are a girl or a small child

b) it trains false reactions, in both the puncher and punchee, that only hold when gloves are worn

c) it instills dangerous false confidence based on a model that is not close to reality. Gloved sparring is in some ways the opposite of Kano's genius in revolutionising grappling with randori. Randori removes the dangerous techniques while allowing realistic grappling training with full resistance. Gloved sparring actually accentuates the dangerous techniques while providing a completely false framework of action and reaction.

discuss

In what way does gloved sparring create false reactions? With the gloves on, you can actually make contact, from light to full-on. It's actually the striker's *equivalent* of Kano's judo randori, not its opposite. Of course, there are some ways of striking with gloves on that can't be perfectly replicated bare-handed, but gloved sparring is still the most realistic way to train with contact. Plus, you can still condition your hands to strike without gloves as well. But to say that gloved sparring isn't close to reality is in itself far from reality.

Have you ever sparred with a boxer?

I've known/seen guys with varying degrees of boxing experience who fought very effectively on the street without gloves on, and without breaking their hands. Clearly, they trained with gloves, and clearly it wasn't worthless for them.

[Vernon]

There are positives and negatives of both gloved and non-gloved types of sparring. Bear in mind, though, that even non-gloved sparring is still "sparring." The only truly realistic fight practice is real fighting. Since that isn't practical for most people we do the best we can to work the skills with drills including various forms of sparring.

[madhusudan]

I agree. Is there a reason one can't do both? Kyokushin style sparring ungloved with punches only below the neck is great sometimes, but, at least for me, not always.

[EternalSpring]

Open palm style are perfect.

I think you or someone else linked me these gloves before. Do you know what the model name/make of the glove is? I've been trying to find it but have had no luck.

[k gledhill]

I think you or someone else linked me these gloves before. Do you know what the model name/make of the glove is? I've been trying to find it but have had no luck.

eBay everlast 6oz mma glove.

[pazman]

Even though I've never been to a boxing gym, I know it's so easy and even a cave man can do it, my cousin told me so. It's just body-level, muscle stuff. One strike from my monkey beak and it's LIGHTS OUT YOU JOCK. HA HA HA.

Been doing monkey beak wing chun for six months now and gonna open up my own school soon to spread the wisdom.

[Lucas]

Kid Tested, MAM Approved.
http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-585k.html
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-91116643660013_2261_27815470

http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-580.html
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-91116643660013_2263_42850438

[k gledhill]

Some interesting insight leading to more body blows with bare hands for protection from hand injury. The gloves led to more exciting ; ) head shots with less chance of injury. Reducing bare knuckle fights from 75 ! Rounds to today's level of watchable tv.
http://guyspeed.com/7-things-you-should-know-about-bare-knuckle-boxing/

[k gledhill]

Even though I've never been to a boxing gym, I know it's so easy and even a cave man can do it, my cousin told me so. It's just body-level, muscle stuff. One strike from my monkey beak and it's LIGHTS OUT YOU JOCK. HA HA HA.

Been doing monkey beak wing chun for six months now and gonna open up my own school soon to spread the wisdom.

Someone's forgotten their meds today !

[Dragonzbane76]

a) it encourages you to hit in a way that will mean you break your hand on the first or second punch, unless you are a girl or a small child

b) it trains false reactions, in both the puncher and punchee, that only hold when gloves are worn

c) it instills dangerous false confidence based on a model that is not close to reality. Gloved sparring is in some ways the opposite of Kano's genius in revolutionising grappling with randori. Randori removes the dangerous techniques while allowing realistic grappling training with full resistance. Gloved sparring actually accentuates the dangerous techniques while providing a completely false framework of action and reaction.

lol just lol....wake up.

[pazman]

Someone's forgotten their meds today !

I don't feel so bad, it looks like guy b forgets them everyday.

[wingchunIan]

And now a word from our sponsor:

These are inexpensive and don't hinder your hands too much. (http://www.martialartsmart.com/14-010.html)

These cost a little more, but again don't hinder (http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-300.html)

These offer a bit more protection, but they'll hinder a bit (http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-030.html)

These (http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-590w.html) and These (http://www.martialartsmart.com/10-580.html)cost a little more and they take more courage to use, but they'll give you a margin of safety and almost no hand restriction.

Can't even believe stores are still selling some of this crap. Gloves have been developed for MMA that allow complete movement and provide padding to the striking area

[JPinAZ]

Can't even believe stores are still selling some of this crap. Gloves have been developed for MMA that allow complete movement and provide padding to the striking area

actually, those cheesy cloth looking ones probably aren't that bad for someone that doesn't have much money - better than nothing :)

[guy b.]

I am saying look at the skill levels produced by sport fighters wearing gloves. Those skills don't just evaporate when you take the gloves off. A good boxer remains a good boxer even when he doesn't have on gloves or have his cup or mouthpiece or even headgear.

Boxing skills are only useful with gloves on.

1. Opponent reactions are different with gloves off; skills developed wearing gloves do not map to reality without gloves.

2. Hands break punching like a boxer with gloves off. Breaking your hand is very dangerous if someone is trying to hurt you.

[guy b.]

Gloves, 4-6 oz mma style, are great for vt sparring, they allow intercepting lines and all our hand techniques. Light contact with bare knuckles will cut a lip as soon as look at it.
I do mix up sparring and drilling with or without. Knowing when to use open hand strikes on guys who come in head down is important in bare handed fights to avoid injuries and allow easy 100 % power shots with no fear of hand injury to skulls. It is from sparring injuries that you learn what to avoid and what to adopt before doing it for real and a guy drops his head as you punch.

Larger gloves impede vt techniques. One of our major hand concepts is shut down if we can't strike using a specific line. Try this with 12-oz + boxing gloves and you end up striking in parallel and trade punches down the center. It would induce head slips to compensate for lack of arm interception.

Those gloves look like a decent compromise and might be useful for some purposes.

[guy b.]

what is the option if not gloved sparring

Regular light contact and occasional heavy contact sparring without gloves including headshots. Regular body contact sparring. You know, the kind of thing that all Chinese MA do all of the time and have done for a very long time.


because that really has been shown to produce good street fighters hasnt it............

Yes it has

[Lucas]

can boxing be used without gloves? yes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTbgpc_HeM0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4ehL45sTJQ

[guy b.]

can boxing be used without gloves? yes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTbgpc_HeM0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4ehL45sTJQ

These show very light contact being made on almost all shots. The reason is twofold: training in gloves throws off distancing without gloves and hitting hard with a boxing punch ungloved results in broken hands

[Vajramusti]

you can do some wing chun drills with gloves or without gloves-if you know what you are doing
and use wing chun structure and dynamics.

[guy b.]

you can do some wing chun drills with gloves or without gloves-if you know what you are doing
and use wing chun structure and dynamics.

Not much you can do with boxing gloves on in my experience. Maybe Kev's little gloves would be better for some things but never a total solution

[Vajramusti]

Not much you can do with boxing gloves on in my experience. Maybe Kev's little gloves would be better for some things but never a total solution

--------------------------------------------------------------------
We just have different POVs.

[Lucas]

These show very light contact being made on almost all shots. The reason is twofold: training in gloves throws off distancing without gloves and hitting hard with a boxing punch ungloved results in broken hands

doesnt matter. its boxing being used in real life. in fact its solid evidence that when needed, a trained boxer will adjust properly and apply their boxing in a realistic manner to defend/fight. boxers punch well 'through' their target anyway, the distance and timing in any fight, sport or life, is a very alive thing, so the gloves actually do not effect distancing due to the constant change and fluid nature of the relationship of distance, and the necessity to constantly adjust yourself to all the variables included in creating and closing distance.

long time boxers are very aware of how to punch without gloves, all of them do it on a regular basis.

furthermore, people who spar without gloves on are not making true contact with headshots, so it could be counter argued that when the **** hits the fan, their strikes will be too weak to finish the job. i dont believe this but its the exact same mindset.

[wenshu]

The reason is twofold: training in gloves throws off distancing without gloves and hitting hard with a boxing punch ungloved results in broken hands

So how do you explain nearly 2 centuries of bare knuckle boxing?

Based on this topic I seriously doubt you've done much with your hands gloved or not.

[lkfmdc]

Gloves change the way you hit. Why do people value gloved sparring so much when it is impossible to fight that way ungloved?

Gloved sparring is worthless because:

a) it encourages you to hit in a way that will mean you break your hand on the first or second punch, unless you are a girl or a small child

b) it trains false reactions, in both the puncher and punchee, that only hold when gloves are worn

c) it instills dangerous false confidence based on a model that is not close to reality. Gloved sparring is in some ways the opposite of Kano's genius in revolutionising grappling with randori. Randori removes the dangerous techniques while allowing realistic grappling training with full resistance. Gloved sparring actually accentuates the dangerous techniques while providing a completely false framework of action and reaction.

discuss

my response to this post...

(so f'in clueless)

[Sima Rong]

Boxing skills are only useful with gloves on.

1. Opponent reactions are different with gloves off; skills developed wearing gloves do not map to reality without gloves.

2. Hands break punching like a boxer with gloves off. Breaking your hand is very dangerous if someone is trying to hurt you.

I was going to write a lengthy spiel about how, apart from minor differences, the basic skills learned are the same, and that people break their hands due to poor alignment and hitting something harder than their hands.

But actually, I'll second the 'haha'.

Oh, and boxers don't only go around punching the hard part of the skull, because the gloves allow them too. There are other targets.

[wingchunIan]

Boxing skills are only useful with gloves on.

1. Opponent reactions are different with gloves off; skills developed wearing gloves do not map to reality without gloves.

2. Hands break punching like a boxer with gloves off. Breaking your hand is very dangerous if someone is trying to hurt you.

You have clearly gained most of your fighting knowledge from the internet and magazines etc. In the UK where hand to hand violence is commonplace, the majority of people working the doors of clubs and bars have a background in boxing / MT/ kickboxing and more recently MMA (obviously there are lots of arts like Judo,karate and jiu jitsu in their as well). The number of them that break their hand on a weekend is so small as to be not worth discussing. Wrist sprains and lacerations to knuckles are far more common

[guy b.]

So how do you explain nearly 2 centuries of bare knuckle boxing?

Based on this topic I seriously doubt you've done much with your hands gloved or not.

Techniques of bare knuckle boxing are different to those of gloved boxing

[MightyB]

for some reason this thread reminded me of this interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPSv05AeXVc

Watch starting at the 1:15 mark. It's a short interview.

[Bernard]

All sparring practices tries to get as close as possible to real fighting. But because of safety concerns there will always be limitations. If you train with the awareness of those limitations then you can get more out of sparring.

[guy b.]

All sparring practices tries to get as close as possible to real fighting. But because of safety concerns there will always be limitations. If you train with the awareness of those limitations then you can get more out of sparring.

Gloves fundamentally change the way you hit. What is wrong with regular body shots sparring, regular light face contact sparring, and occasional heavy face contact sparring?

[Bernard]

Gloves fundamentally change the way you hit. What is wrong with regular body shots sparring, regular light face contact sparring, and occasional heavy face contact sparring?

Why nothing's wrong with those sparring practices. ;)

[guy b.]

Why nothing's wrong with those sparring practices. ;)

Good. And there is nothing right with gloved training for Chinese MA.

[guy b.]

my response to this post...

(so f'in clueless)

I've seen a clip of you fighting, fat man. Your gloved training appears to render you slow, unable to generate power, and working with a hopeless model of reality that doesn't correspond to where your opponents head is likely to be at any particular time. You are a particularly bad advert for gloved sparring

[Bernard]

Good. And there is nothing right with gloved training for Chinese MA.

Gloved training (mma gloves can be used too if you want to add the element of grabbing) allows for harder contact and still provide some measure of safety. That should be obvious. And as I stated earlier, as long as you are aware of the limitations gloves place as far as realism goes, than there is nothing wrong with gloved training.

[guy b.]

Gloved training (mma gloves can be used too if you want to add the element of grabbing) allows for harder contact and still provide some measure of safety. That should be obvious. And as I stated earlier, as long as you are aware of the limitations gloves place as far as realism goes, than there is nothing wrong with gloved training.

Gloved training installs a flawed model of distance and timing in your brain for bare hand fighting. Gloved training encourages a different type of power generation to the one used in wing chun. I would say that is pretty wrong.

[Bernard]

Gloved training installs a flawed model of distance and timing in your brain for bare hand fighting. Gloved training encourages a different type of power generation to the one used in wing chun. I would say that is pretty wrong.

The key word is AWARENESS. Move on buddy.

[guy b.]

The key word is AWARENESS. Move on buddy.

Being aware of the flawed distance timing model your brain is developing doesn't stop it happening. In terms of power generation you can actively work against but very difficult. Your body naturally does what is easiest. It is like training to run fast by attaching weights to your legs or training underwater. Stupid

[Lucas]

I've seen a clip of you fighting, fat man. Your gloved training appears to render you slow, unable to generate power, and working with a hopeless model of reality that doesn't correspond to where your opponents head is likely to be at any particular time. You are a particularly bad advert for gloved sparring

i'd put a good purse of money down on a bet saying any 5 of his students he picks would take you apart with or without gloves.


regardless....you do realize there is an overwhelming amount of solid evidence that proves you wrong...right?

[Bernard]

Being aware of the flawed distance timing model your brain is developing doesn't stop it happening.

Sure it can. Not many on this forum would agree with your views. If you are confident about your views, fine. Move on. BUT your training would greatly benefit if you had a more open mind when it comes to training methods.

[Dragonzbane76]

i'd put a good purse of money down on a bet saying any 5 of his students he picks would take you apart with or without gloves.


regardless....you do realize there is an overwhelming amount of solid evidence that proves you wrong...right?

I'm trying to figure out if the guy is serious or not? I'm thinking troll, but honestly I think he believes the crap he is dictating, but then again this is the WC part of the forum.... and i'm waiting for the chi blasting dragons to swoop down any moment and carry off bawang.

[JPinAZ]

I'm trying to figure out if the guy is serious or not? I'm thinking troll, but honestly I think he believes the crap he is dictating, but then again this is the WC part of the forum.... and i'm waiting for the chi blasting dragons to swoop down any moment and carry off bawang.

He's a troll, one best ignored. The less people that feed him Trollios for breakfast, the less he'll have to say ;)

[Sihing73]

Gloved training installs a flawed model of distance and timing in your brain for bare hand fighting. Gloved training encourages a different type of power generation to the one used in wing chun. I would say that is pretty wrong.

It is better to be thought a fool than to opens ones mouth and remove all doubt

Just saying...................................:D

[YouKnowWho]

And there is nothing right with gloved training for Chinese MA.

With gloves on, you can punch hard on your opponent. Your opponent can also experience the shocking from your punch. If your opponent tries to knock you down 20 times but you are still standing. You will know the chance that his 21th punch may knock you down could be low. That will help you to build up your self confidence.

[PalmStriker]

Wrapping hands so they don't break. Pummel the head like it's a heavy bag. Kicks to the head, like it's a heavy bag. You can take it. 'Til you can't. :) When I was younger (18) I took an impact to the head that smashed my teeth together, ripping my lower palate so that one of my front teeth was jutting up towards the roof of my mouth. I was able to stand back up before blacking out for a few. Never bothered getting the cosmetic dental work to make it look like it never happened. Taking hits to the head is not something everyone should be doing regularly. You've only got one head. :D As long as there is going to be sportfighting, there will be gloves. Pro Football will allways gear up with pads and helmets.

[guy b.]

Taking hits to the head is not something everyone should be doing regularly. You've only got one head.

Very true. This is why gloved sparring is like the anti-randori of Kano's genius. It makes the whole affair more dangerous, ironically destroying the very thing you need to be an effective striking based fighter.

[tc101]

Very true. This is why gloved sparring is like the anti-randori of Kano's genius. It makes the whole affair more dangerous, ironically destroying the very thing you need to be an effective striking based fighter.

Actually I think just the contrary. Kano who was educated on western methodvas I understand it applied western sport training to old school jj and boxing uses that western sport training. By wearing protective equipment and practicing what you will do when really boxing you can develop faster and to higher levels of performance. The question of whether this has long term health problems has nothing to do with how effective the training is at developing greater skill. Boxers have like all other athletes only gotten better and better over the years and is universally recognized as a great and effective style.

[guy b.]

Actually I think just the contrary. Kano who was educated on western methodvas I understand it applied western sport training to old school jj and boxing uses that western sport training. By wearing protective equipment and practicing what you will do when really boxing you can develop faster and to higher levels of performance.

This is the antithesis of Kano's method. Kano was motivated to remove the dangerous techniques, allowing more and better practice of those remaining, while promoting self development through jiu jitsu practice in a safe environment. Wearing gloves makes striking less safe, both in the immediate and long term, while also making it less effective as a martial art. The culture of mma and boxing is the opposite of that promoted by Kano in his original judo.


The question of whether this has long term health problems has nothing to do with how effective the training is at developing greater skill. Boxers have like all other athletes only gotten better and better over the years and is universally recognized as a great and effective style.

This is a myth.

[Wayfaring]

Wearing gloves makes striking less safe, both in the immediate and long term, while also making it less effective as a martial art. The culture of mma and boxing is the opposite of that promoted by Kano in his original judo.


Usually when I see someone this clueless and exactly wrong they have to be trolling.

guyb on the other hand seems to be the exception. he actually believes this stuff. :rolleyes:

Let's take this REAL SLOW.

Gloves. What are they for?
Protecting the hand.
Protection means making something MORE SAFE, not LESS SAFE.
More is better, like the TV commercials.

Got it now?

[guy b.]

Let's take this REAL SLOW.

Gloves. What are they for?
Protecting the hand.
Protection means making something MORE SAFE, not LESS SAFE.
More is better, like the TV commercials.

Got it now?

What is more important do you think..hands or brains?

[hulkout]

I love these guys who hate gloved sparring. What do you suggest? Regularly sparring bare knuckled? Oh wait! That's right. These guys don't spar at all because the techniques are too deadly. You'll all kill each other, right? How else do you expect to learn the feeling of fighting? It's got to be spontaneous. There is certainly a time and place for the traditional drills in your Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma as well as Chi Sao. But there must come a time when you put those things to the test and practice them in a real fight. And since anyone with half a brain knows that it isn't realistic to practice full contact sparring without safety equipment, gloves and other protective gear are needed. Is it exactly the same as a real fight? No it isn't. But it's a lot closer to it than anything I'm sure these guys are doing. All I can say is that if you think that doing forms, Chi Sao, and pre-arranged drills alone will prepare you for a real fight, you're dreaming!

I don't care what anybody says. The most important part of being able to fight is to be mentally present and aware. Fear, nervousness, and tension can all negatively affect that and that's exactly what you'll be feeling in a real fight unless you've gone through those feelings many times already and have learned to control them. If you can learn to remain present and aware even in the face of a real fight, you've got an infinitely better chance of coming out on top. If on the other hand you don't even know what a real fight feels like, how do you think you'll be able to stay present and aware? You won't be able to and I know exactly where you will end up and that's flat on your back!

[Wayfaring]

What is more important do you think..hands or brains?

Because next time God is handing out brains you'll pick differently and not choose large hands?

[guy b.]

I love these guys who hate gloved sparring. What do you suggest? Regularly sparring bare knuckled? <snip>

Regularly sparring bare knuckled

[GlennR]

Regularly sparring bare knuckled

No, doesnt work.

Period.

Broken faces.... broken hands.

Unless its "light" sparring

[KungfuCasting]

Even though I've never been to a boxing gym, I know it's so easy and even a cave man can do it, my cousin told me so. It's just body-level, muscle stuff. One strike from my monkey beak and it's LIGHTS OUT YOU JOCK. HA HA HA.

Been doing monkey beak wing chun for six months now and gonna open up my own school soon to spread the wisdom.

Are you sure it is alright to open a school after just 6 months of training? :eek:

[Robinhood]

No, doesnt work.

Period.

Broken faces.... broken hands.

Unless its "light" sparring

You mean it doesn't work when 2 people run into each other constantly ?

[Wayfaring]

... but then again this is the WC part of the forum.... and i'm waiting for the chi blasting dragons to swoop down any moment and carry off bawang.

Please ignore the chi blasting dragons. They are all smoke but no fire and since they don't train live they don't have the strength in their talons to be able to carry off bawang.

;)

[Miqi]

Well, the op is right - bare knuckle attacks are very different to gloved sparring, and it is wise to remember the difference. But I wouldn't throw out all the extremely useful - probably essential - things you can gain from sparring just because of that. It's hard enough to have a fight, without that awful, terrible feeling of being suddenly overwhelmed and totally out of your depth thinking "I'm going to die now" - I've had that, even after doing tons of sparring training. Sparring, or some kind of pressure work is the only way to train for that, though - as far as I know.

I always find it amusing on films where someone gets punched over and over bare knuckle right in the kisser - but then just has a little blood at the side of their mouth, and little ruffled hair. Lol.

[Dragonzbane76]

I can't believe this thread went for six pages...

[guy b.]

No, doesnt work.

Period.

Broken faces.... broken hands.

Unless its "light" sparring

It works very well.

[guy b.]

No, doesnt work.

Period.

Broken faces.... broken hands.

Unless its "light" sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il6zh5uFyY0&NR=1&feature=endscreen

[Phil Redmond]

Gloves change the way you hit. Why do people value gloved sparring so much when it is impossible to fight that way ungloved?

Gloved sparring is worthless because:

a) it encourages you to hit in a way that will mean you break your hand on the first or second punch, unless you are a girl or a small child

b) it trains false reactions, in both the puncher and punchee, that only hold when gloves are worn

c) it instills dangerous false confidence based on a model that is not close to reality. Gloved sparring is in some ways the opposite of Kano's genius in revolutionising grappling with randori. Randori removes the dangerous techniques while allowing realistic grappling training with full resistance. Gloved sparring actually accentuates the dangerous techniques while providing a completely false framework of action and reaction.

discuss
So I'll presume that you spar bare-knuckle. That's pretty awesome.

[YouKnowWho]

So I'll presume that you spar bare-knuckle. That's pretty awesome.
To spar with brace knuckle will be even more macho.

http://www.paklinks.com/gsmedia/files/107957/knuckles.jpg

How about to spar with spikers ring?

http://imageshack.us/a/img812/1913/spikesring.jpg

If you train this daily, you shouldn't be afraid of using your fist to hit anything.

http://imageshack.us/a/img687/1774/fistij.jpg

[GlennR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il6zh5uFyY0&NR=1&feature=endscreen

Point of this video was?

[guy b.]

So I'll presume that you spar bare-knuckle. That's pretty awesome.

Why awesome? I thought most people did this

[guy b.]

Point of this video was?

Gloved and ungloved fighting are different and the skills developed in one do not transfer directly to the other

[GlennR]

Gloved and ungloved fighting are different and the skills developed in one do not transfer directly to the other

Their striking skills were average to say the least.

But thats ok, get them some gloved boxing training and they'd improve out of sight

[guy b.]

Their striking skills were average to say the least.

But thats ok, get them some gloved boxing training and they'd improve out of sight

Lol that's the point of the clip. That is the ungloved result of gloved training.

[tc101]

Lol that's the point of the clip. That is the ungloved result of gloved training.

I could point you to the various videos on YouTube of Kimbo Slice fighting bare knuckle and you can see the ungloved result of gloved training specifically boxing. The reason in your clip those guys were so bad is not that they trained with or without gloves it just looks like they did not have much practice actually sparring and so did not have a good skill base.

[GlennR]

Lol that's the point of the clip. That is the ungloved result of gloved training.

They are karate guys from what i gather, so no to glove training.

[Frost]

:)
They are karate guys from what i gather, so no to glove training.

give it up he isnt going to listen :)

[guy b.]

I could point you to the various videos on YouTube of Kimbo Slice fighting bare knuckle and you can see the ungloved result of gloved training specifically boxing. The reason in your clip those guys were so bad is not that they trained with or without gloves it just looks like they did not have much practice actually sparring and so did not have a good skill base.

Kimbo slice is a terrible fighter. Absolutely awful, very low skill level. I am not impressed by his fights.

The guys fighting in Chaos Madmax were all decent kyokushin based athletes, no different to those from Seidokaikan that fight in K1 and other ring events. They all train with gloves for head punches.

[guy b.]

They are karate guys from what i gather, so no to glove training.

Yes glove training. I take it you don't know much about full contact karate?

[GlennR]

Yes glove training. I take it you don't know much about full contact karate?

No, not a lot.
But i think youll find some do, and some dont, wear gloves.

Anyway, ill bail out of this thread as its getting more than a bit boring.

[Yoshiyahu]

Personally I have MMA gloves and head gear with a cage mask for the face...

I also have a mouth piece, cup and boxing gloves...So yes as for Glove sparring...


I suggest you mix it up...

- use no gloves and do chi sau and light sparring with only light palm strikes to the face...

- use some head gear and mma gloves an see how it changes it up....

- use some heavy ass boxing gloves like 20oz an shoot for long periods of time to train attacking and endurance.

TRUE WITH BOXING GLOVES IT DIMINISHES CERTAIN TECHNIQUES CAPABILITY like Tan Da, Pak Da, Jut Da, Lop Da...But you can always alter or adapt your techniques to make it differently...the energies will be different but there are other benefits to using gloves...ONE of which you can get use to getting hit with out eating a knuckle sandwich! Even With MMA gloves its nice to hold back on more power!

But ne way its all good...do as you will as long as you get some sparring in!

[guy b.]

No, not a lot.
But i think youll find some do, and some dont, wear gloves.

Anyway, ill bail out of this thread as its getting more than a bit boring.

All full contact karate fighters train face punches with gloves, without exception in my experience. A few still do the occasional full contact with face punches. This event showcases that tradition.