Three Levels + 1

[MightyB]

I read too much, visit forums too much, and generally waste a lot of time, so I won't be able to accurately cite the source. With that being said...

I've often heard there are three levels to Martial Arts training.

The first being the forms level. This is for the absolute beginner to teach them the structure of the style.

The 2nd being the tui shou, playing hands, chi sau stage. This is where you start to play with the techniques and start using the principles with another person.

The 3rd is the free fighting stage. This is where you really start to internalize and apply the concepts of the style.

Then there's the mastery level where you're able to incorporate other styles and concepts into your own application.

----

IMO, the problems we express with TCMA are because there's a tradition of spending way too much time in levels 1 and 2, and real personal development doesn't happen in those levels. What were finding now is that there's difficulty in properly achieving the 3rd level. We're having to write the book to get there because it kind've got lost. To make matters worse, a lot of the middle aged masters that are teaching now realized this - unfortunately during the 70's and 80's, and the style of fighting that they tried to bridge to isn't good ultimately for modern TCMA.

[MightyB]

so, the reason for success of say a MA like BJJ is...

if you look at their training on a graph, you'd see that they spend most of their time in levels 3 and 4 by the time they get their black belt.

We have a problem with 3 because, for example, if I'm a mantis player, level three should have spontaneous use of diu sau, tiu sau, and ou lou choi. If that's not happening cleanly, there's an issue of properly getting to 3. So then 3 isn't really 3.

This is happening with a lot of TCMA styles and practitioners.

[MightyB]

now we introduce another issue. We "the fighter wannabes" are trying for level 4, but we're really not true level 3s. We spar, we use technique, but often it's borrowed technique.

[MightyB]

Now for the good news...

I think a lot of modern TCMA practitioners are on the right track. It's unfortunate that we have to reinvent the process to get to 3, I personally think it was lost about 100 years ago.

[MightyB]

To make matters worse, a lot of the middle aged masters that are teaching now realized this - unfortunately during the 70's and 80's, and the style of fighting that they tried to bridge to isn't good ultimately for modern TCMA.

Referring to the 70's and 80's fighting circuits. There were a lot of goofy rules that influenced martial arts. IMO Adapting to those rules hurt martial arts development.

[Frost]

I don’t think a lot are on the right track, i think a lot still have their heads buried in the sand, and its worse now than a hundred years ago because people expect a certain kind of training when attending a kung fu class, and if the teacher doesn’t supply it the student leaves

And i think point 2 above is more harmful than good in a lot of cases, it trys to make fighting conform to certain stylistic principles , and when you reach three you find out fighting is just fighting and doesn’t conform to any styles preference

As an aside i would love to be able to watch some of the old leitei matches, i suspect they look alot like MMA without the ground work, and you probably couldn’t tell the arts the practitioners were from

[sanjuro_ronin]

Traditionally speaking:
Level 1 - basic strength and conditioning along with the basic techniques that make the core/structure of the system.
Level 2- drills and more drills, increasing in intensity and "unpredictability".
Level 3- free fighting of various degrees of contact and finally forms.

[Frost]

Traditionally speaking:
Level 1 - basic strength and conditioning along with the basic techniques that make the core/structure of the system.
Level 2- drills and more drills, increasing in intensity and "unpredictability".
Level 3- free fighting of various degrees of contact and finally forms.

and when did this stop being the norm? if we are to believe some old interviews posted on this forum a long long time ago, and dispite several fighting masters warning about what would happen nothing changed back then or now

[MightyB]

Traditionally speaking:
Level 1 - basic strength and conditioning along with the basic techniques that make the core/structure of the system.
Level 2- drills and more drills, increasing in intensity and "unpredictability".
Level 3- free fighting of various degrees of contact and finally forms.

Great summary.
----
I'm with Frost, why did this stop and why was nothing done about it sooner?

I suspect it didn't stop in all schools, but without outside of the kwoon pressure testing, it might as well have.

[Kellen Bassette]

I don’t think a lot are on the right track, i think a lot still have their heads buried in the sand, and its worse now than a hundred years ago because people expect a certain kind of training when attending a kung fu class, and if the teacher doesn’t supply it the student leaves


I got to believe there is headway being made...more TCMA guys are competing in Sanda, KuoShu, Muay Thai and even MMA...any one that is competing, more than once, will have to adopt practical training techniques...

Sure there is a LOT of crap out there, but I feel like many of people are moving in the right direction...look at how many on this forum are pushing/discussing it...don't let the negativity of the WC forum poison you...:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Great summary.
----
I'm with Frost, why did this stop and why was nothing done about it sooner?

I suspect it didn't stop in all schools, but without outside of the kwoon pressure testing, it might as well have.

MA become more of a hobby.
Firearms made it semi-obsolete.
Teachers that were more interested in mass consumption than tradition.
Lazy and pussified students.

The choices were become a sport and maintain a degree of combat effectiveness because, well, you are fighting to at least a certain degree.
Or become a school that catered to the "well to do" or the people looking for something different, something exotic that still could be used to fight ( ina limited way).
Sport requires people to actually fight AND be effective and the honest truth is by the time it came around, many systems had been so watered down that they teachers just didn't know how to fight for real, much less TRAIN fighters.
So they failed and in sport, failure does NOT attract people.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I got to believe there is headway being made...more TCMA guys are competing in Sanda, KuoShu, Muay Thai and even MMA...any one that is competing, more than once, will have to adopt practical training techniques...

Sure there is a LOT of crap out there, but I feel like many of people are moving in the right direction...look at how many on this forum are pushing/discussing it...don't let the negativity of the WC forum poison you...:p


MMA has made a comment and that comment is: The "too deadly" is BS.
Vale tudo was the beginning because it said, "fine, no rules just like you want, lets dance" and what happened?
The "too deadly" folded like a hooker punched by her pimp.
What was learned and proven over and over was that to fight well you must fight and the type of training you do is what you bring to the "ring" ( where ever that ring may be).
TCMA saw that for them to be able to beat MMA and Thai fighters and the what not, they had to train like them ( adapt the methods, not the style) and in doing so, whatever style they did, they could make it work.

Pressure testing, the one element that TCMA ALL had in common, the one thing that was put on the back burner, became the "key" to unlocking the effectiveness of the style.
Like it had ALWAYS been.

[MightyB]

MMA has made a comment and that comment is: The "too deadly" is BS.
Vale tudo was the beginning because it said, "fine, no rules just like you want, lets dance" and what happened?
The "too deadly" folded like a hooker punched by her pimp.
What was learned and proven over and over was that to fight well you must fight and the type of training you do is what you bring to the "ring" ( where ever that ring may be).
TCMA saw that for them to be able to beat MMA and Thai fighters and the what not, they had to train like them ( adapt the methods, not the style) and in doing so, whatever style they did, they could make it work.

Pressure testing, the one element that TCMA ALL had in common, the one thing that was put on the back burner, became the "key" to unlocking the effectiveness of the style.
Like it had ALWAYS been.

All this really isn't new news (love the hooker comment btw), but it does make me wonder about the people/styles that absolutely refuse to see this.

Using the above levels concept, there's no room for a lot of the debate that goes on - internal/external/sexual qi/health whatever - it's all irrelevant to the task at hand.

And - once you find yourself in 3 and 4, you're really doing a lot of "internal" work.

[Kellen Bassette]

Pressure testing, the one element that TCMA ALL had in common, the one thing that was put on the back burner, became the "key" to unlocking the effectiveness of the style.
Like it had ALWAYS been.

"Everything that is old can be made new again."

It never ceases to amaze me how many people with fairly limited MA experience immediately recognize the proper context of certain traditional drills/form work when regularly sparring under heavy pressure. I feel like I see relative noobs achieve a far greater understanding of the art than many who have spent a lifetime training, but never really tested it.

This is why I am optimistic that the "secrets" can never truly be lost. Like so many have said here before, the secrets are usually just common sense. When your hitting and trying not to be hit, things start to become much more clear.

I think any traditionally trained martial artists, as long as he is not too old/stubborn/set in his ways, can readily learn and adapt in the pressure environment, so long as he is willing to enter it.

Since it can only be learned by time in the environment, it can't be passed from teacher to student orally and therefore can not be forgotten/lost. Only misplaced.

[MightyB]

by internal I mean you're actively contemplating the truths behind real martial arts. It's not qi alchemy magic.

[sanjuro_ronin]

All this really isn't new news (love the hooker comment btw), but it does make me wonder about the people/styles that absolutely refuse to see this.

Using the above levels concept, there's no room for a lot of the debate that goes on - internal/external/sexual qi/health whatever - it's all irrelevant to the task at hand.

And - once you find yourself in 3 and 4, you're really doing a lot of "internal" work.

Nope, it isn't news now and wasn't in the past either, yet...

The reality is that IF,and that is a big if, you want to unlock the secrets of your chosen MA then all you have to do is pressure test it and the more pressure you put on it, the better.
Most people think that their light sparring in class I pressure testing, it isn't.
There comes a time in every MA development stage where he/she is confronted with THE QUESTION:
Where do you want to go with this?

For fighters ( people that do MA for self-protection and fighting) the answer is clear and the path is clear.

[MightyB]

Since it can only be learned by time in the environment, it can't be passed from teacher to student orally and therefore can not be forgotten/lost. Only misplaced.

Quotable, possibly sig worthy.

[Frost]

All this really isn't new news (love the hooker comment btw), but it does make me wonder about the people/styles that absolutely refuse to see this.

Using the above levels concept, there's no room for a lot of the debate that goes on - internal/external/sexual qi/health whatever - it's all irrelevant to the task at hand.

And - once you find yourself in 3 and 4, you're really doing a lot of "internal" work.

hensc my saying its not getting any better, i know kellen was joking about the wing chun forum bit but look at the two most popular forms of TCMA out there...wing chun and tai chi both as far removed from Ronins testing grounds as anything around

the proof has been there in the west for decades, nothing really has changed, in the states heck Ross and the other big 6 left sanda for thai and MMA because of the problems, in china you have that silly programme which pretends to pit chinese styles against other arts in a reality sanda show, but really its fake

people dont want to know the truth and if MMA hasnt changed it now, and if the results of those old lei tei matches before the 30's didnt change it back then, then what is going to change it??

[MightyB]

hensc my saying its not getting any better, i know kellen was joking about the wing chun forum bit but look at the two most popular forms of TCMA out there...wing chun and tai chi both as far removed from Ronins testing grounds as anything around


I still have faith in WC and Tai Chi (I don't practice either). I think the capacity for combat is in both arts, it just has to be cultivated in the 3rd stage.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I still have faith in WC and Tai Chi (I don't practice either). I think the capacity for combat is in both arts, it just has to be cultivated in the 3rd stage.

I know guys that use both in fights and use them well.
How?
They train to use them in a fight AND they train against non-WC/Taiji people.

The more "specialized" your system is, the more you need to pressure test it VS other systems.

[David Jamieson]

I don't subscribe to an idea of levels at all.
Just 2 points.

1. Begin

2. Continue

You will progress just the same if you follow that path.
Prescribing levels to minutia of exercise and martial art is just weird.

For fighting, every one has their day, and then it passes and then they fight no more forever. :)

[MightyB]

I don't subscribe to an idea of levels at all.
Just 2 points.

1. Begin

2. Continue

You will progress just the same if you follow that path.
Prescribing levels to minutia of exercise and martial art is just weird.

For fighting, every one has their day, and then it passes and then they fight no more forever. :)

It's not minutia prescribed levels - "levels" is just the best way to describe steps in the path. Saying there's a beginning stage, a middle stage, an advanced stage, and an end stage would be accurate as well. The issue at hand is how people are using their time to train. And even fighting as in sport fighting or what have you is a bit misleading because the goal is and isn't fighting, but fighting certainly plays a role in development if total mastery of the art is your goal.

What I was getting at when I started the thread is that there never was really anything inherently wrong with any TCMA or MA. But there can be wrong paths, and stalled development. And without fixating on fighting, it's the free flow of the concepts and techniques with another person that you should be working. And that's "internal" to you. It's not a me vs him, it's how well am I able to apply this kung fu.

One thing's for sure - if you don't spend time in "level 3" you will never be able to apply your kung fu and you will never progress from the beginner intermediate level.

[YouKnowWho]

Traditionally speaking:
Level 1 - basic strength and conditioning along with the basic techniques that make the core/structure of the system.
Level 2- drills and more drills, increasing in intensity and "unpredictability".
Level 3- free fighting of various degrees of contact and finally forms.

I'll put level 1 at the end as:

Level 1 (develop) - partner drills.
Level 2 (test) - sparring/wrestling.
Level 3 (polish, enhance) - solo drills, weight equipment training.

because solo drill is for "polishing" and weight equipment training is for "enhancement". Without developing techniques first, there is nothing to polish or enhance.

If one has no talent or desire to develop combat skill, you don't need to provide him any more information.

[Shaolin]

the problems we express with TCMA are because there's a tradition of spending way too much time in levels 1 and 2

And it's for this reason I believe TMA are on the decline. Levels 1 and 2 as described do not provide students with instant gratification. Which is in turn why not many people are studying it today.

Someone asked why then is BJJ successful? Because even though it follows teaching patterns of a TMA it still offers the student instant gratification. You go to class, learn an arm bar from guard, then spar and practice said arm bar.

Remember we live in a time of the fast food american mindset. We want it now, we don't want too pay much for it and it should take as little effort as possible to achieve.

[YouKnowWho]

You will have the rest of your life to make your punch strong. Skill "enhancement" should not be required to be developed in step 1.

[Kellen Bassette]

There's no reason not to spar from day 1. You don't have to take the student's head off. Let him get a couple hits in then give him a couple, build the intensity gradually, as his competence and technique improves.

[Lucas]

The way of wombat combat is to crush the student from day one and force them to develop victory through defeat. This way only the strong survive.

[Minghequan]

This is a very interesting discussion. I have toyed with the idea of "Three Levels" for quite sometime now within my own teaching and have finally taken the plunge and implemented a "Three Level" system of personal student recognition over that of the previously used 9 level way with different coloured sasahes etc.

It feels immediatately liberating and ALL of my students/members are extremely happy with the new Three Level system!

The only representation of any level is found in the White Sash one wears when they start, the Black Sash they wear when they graduate as Teachers and a simple Red Sash when they reach the highest level. That’s it! No multi-coloured levels that looks like Walt Disney took up Martial Arts!

We approach the whole concept of grading and “Ranks” in a very different way! Firstly, we don’t have “Ranks” as such but rather what we term “Personal Development Promotions” in recognition of each individuals progress & understanding. We emphasise the need for continual, never-ending improvement & understanding. We also acknowledge just as it is within our forms, there are also “levels within levels!”

Being awarded a “Rank” is not the “be all and end all” it is part of the totality of the learning experience! The whole idea of “Ranks” is as a means of motivating people along the path. For a true martial arts to be natural and reflect reality, it cannot be defined by ranks and techniques, and forms alone.

[Shaolin]

^ It's not about rank. It's about; does the student feel like they've achieved something from day one walking out of your class? Most instructors would quickly say, "Yes, they learned so much valuable information to help take them to the next level." While the student leaves the class thinking it was a good exercise but we did a lot of weird drills and stances that don't make sense to me and I don't think will ever work. And they usually don't return.

Instructors commonly will fall into a trap of what I call "Black Belt Eyes". This is when the instructor looks at the student's benefits through their years of experience and training, and even though they honestly know what's best for the student and how to make them successful, the student sees it as a waste of time.

* See my previous post*

Again, we live in an age of instant gratification. The majority are not willing to spend years on end to perfect their craft. Or so they don't think so when they first walk through your doors.

YouKnowWho is on the right track. From the moment the prospective student walks through the doors to inquire about class they need to feel they will get something out of it immediately. It's the mentality, What's in it for Me?

Level 1 - Develop skills through partner drills
Level 2 - Test skill in sparring
Level 3 - Polish skills with solo drills

If you look closely at BJJ and Tae Kwon Do this is the formula they use to develop students and that's why their schools are successful.

[YouKnowWho]

Level 2 - Test skill in sparring.

If you can let your students to test skill against other styles, that will be even better. Since I only have 2 students right now, they are too used to spar/wrestle againt each other, they both went to different MMA gyms to test their skill.

[David Jamieson]

If you can let your students to test skill against other styles, that will be even better. Since I only have 2 students right now, they are too used to spar/wrestle againt each other, they both went to different MMA gyms to test their skill.

This is forward thinking and useful.
You're a good teacher!

[Shaolin]

If you can let your students to test skill against other styles, that will be even better. Since I only have 2 students right now, they are too used to spar/wrestle againt each other, they both went to different MMA gyms to test their skill.

I agree. That's why personally, outside of training my students I train at the MMA Lab. As for my students I have two good friends that have their own schools and on Saturdays they usually bring 5-10 students each to my sparring class. We spar for an hour stand up and then an hour on the ground.

[Kymus]

If you can let your students to test skill against other styles, that will be even better. Since I only have 2 students right now, they are too used to spar/wrestle againt each other, they both went to different MMA gyms to test their skill.

I have to join with the others and mention how spot-on this is. I've had this philosophy for probably over a decade, thanks to my somewhat coincidental crosstraining. I think it's really important to understand how to deal with different arts and perhaps this is why I am always so interested (obsessed, really) in the technical aspects of an art. I want to know what their method of attack is, and furthermore, I try to understand how to approach different opponents.

I think the understanding of how to deal with different opponents based on size, power, speed, and fighting technique is something that is fundamentally missing from TMA these days. You can't approach an opponent and expect to win the same way every time.

[YouKnowWho]

I think it's really important to understand how to deal with different arts ...

If Judo guys have to consider how to deal with boxers or MT guys, will their training be any different? You can train "sport" and think about "sport". You can also train "sport' and think about "combat". The training pathes won't be the same.

IMO, it's wrong to train a TCMA style and not familiar how to deal with:

- wrestler's leg shooting,
- MT guy's roundhouse kick,
- boxer's hook punch,
- TKD guy's side kick,
- ...

[Kymus]

If Judo guys have to consider how to deal with boxers or MT guys, will their training be any different?

That depends on whether they're training to be able to handle themselves against a variety of attackers (ie: realistic self defense) or just another judo guy.


You can train "sport" and think about "sport". You can also train "sport' and think about "combat". The training pathes won't be the same.

It's wrong to train a TCMA style and not familiar how to deal with:

- wrestler's leg shooting,
- MT guy's roundhouse kick,
- boxer's hook punch,
- TKD guy's side kick,
- ...

I agree whole heartedly

[jdhowland]

The 3 levels are based on the heaven-man-earth trinity. The 3 strokes in writing "san/saam/three" are heaven-man-earth as are the same figure found in "wong" (king, emperor) but in this case they are connected by the vertical stroke--the spinal column, the will or the individual who can communicate with all three worlds. This is the job of the emperor or the fully realized man--to bring all levels of being into harmony.

The CLF I learned has three levels. Not really beginning/intermediate/advanced, although it makes the most sense to learn them in this order. Ng Leun Cheui, the basic set illustrates the divisions in three sections, each appropriate for a different level of understanding of the system. The first level is about strength, stability, rushing forward and backward and long range power. The second level uses more subtle movements with grappling and trapping skills as well as twisting and circling footwork. The third level emphasizes smaller footwork and precise angling with vital point striking.

It makes sense to me to learn the basic, "high percentage" moves first, then the joint locking and specialty strikes later.

[YouKnowWho]

The 3 levels are ...

Someone asked me, "If you label 3 baskets as beginner, intermediate, and advance, will you be able to put TCMA skills into these 3 baskets?

IMO, any punches without involving footwork can be categoried as "beginner level". So if punches involved footwork, should you put it in the "intermediate level" basket or "advance level" basket? Do we really need 3 baskets? Can 2 basket "beginner level" and "non-beginner level" should be good enough?

The 3 levels is very clear in the SC system.

beginner level - offense skill
intermediate level - defense skill
advance level - combo

[bawang]

" three levels of boxing

the high level, he is deceptive, his hands are loose. he doesnt take risks. his real attack looks like a feint, his feint looks real. he hits in all directions. he lures the enemy to attack. this is the divine level of boxing, a boxing saint.

the alright level, he does not telegraph. he is not amazing, but he has mastered all the basics. he leaves no gaps. his eye is good and his footwork is clear. he attacks and defends, and knows when to be hard and soft. he is 90% there.

the lower level, his entire body is filled with gaps, he tires himself, he repeats the same thing over and over. his arms are stiff like frozen by ice. his footwork is random. his hands are tight and his groin is open. he runs his mouth off, but when he fights for real he doesnt even keeps his hands up. this is the lowest level in boxing."

- shaolin boxing appendix

[Yum Cha]

Talk about your three levels, formally. Sure, but the informal reality is really much more circular. Like the riddle of the Sphinx....
You talk to a lot of people about TCMA
You start, stretching, building coordination and strength,
You start basic forms and techniques
You get stronger, faster
You start sparring
You learn more techniques, and get on top of a lot of it.
You start fighting
You start mastering the key techniques and combinations
You teach
You start sparring with students
you start re-learning unused techniques
You get weaker and slower
You practice basic forms and techniques
You spend a lot of time stretching, keeping coordination and trying to maintain strength...
You talk to a lot of people about TCMA.

<shrugs>

[SoCo KungFu]

Since you used BJJ as your example I'm just going to stick with that. BJJ is effective because before you leave class, you've rolled with the techniques you learned that day. Every single student, regardless of skill level, walks in, learns the tech, drills it a bit, then rolls and tries to pull it off.

This crap about "instant gratification" and blaming the students is a cop out. If you aren't having your students sparring on day one, you're doing them a disservice.

Here's an idea, don't teach forms. At all. Go a year with a new student and not teach a single form. YOU do the homework ahead of time. YOU pick out a couple techniques for class everyday and a couple setups. And you teach them that, rather than forms and hoping they have a light bulb moment.

You got hour class? Lecture the move and setup, should take no more than 5-10 min. Have them drill it (5min tops). Then get out the way and let them learn by doing (sparring).

Kung fu teachers are a lot like science writers. You guys have this bit that you really like (the form). But everyone proof reading your stuff is saying it's out of place, its not working in the writing, it'd be best just to remove it all together and bring out the material in other areas (sparring, competing). And like a stubborn writer, kung fu teachers don't want to let go of that piece. "How can they understand this part of science if I don't break it all the way down first? They need to learn the structure." They think no one knows what they're talking about, "How can you speak on my ART?" And then the paper gets rejected by a pub because its got too much excessive crap, and excessive crap costs money in publication.

Forms are for the old who are forgetting their techniques. Its a memory cue.

I've yet to see any compelling argument as to how you can train proper structure for hitting things at full force, by not hitting anything with any force at all. That's what a form is, not hitting anything with any force.

[Yum Cha]

... YOU pick out a couple techniques for class everyday and a couple setups. And you teach them that, rather than forms and hoping they have a light bulb moment.

You got hour class? Lecture the move and setup, should take no more than 5-10 min. Have them drill it (5min tops). Then get out the way and let them learn by doing (sparring).

Sounds exactly like forms training to me.
Just saying...

[SoCo KungFu]

Sounds exactly like forms training to me.
Just saying...

Teaching them a techniques and its setups and letting them learn through sparring (like in a BJJ class), is like teaching a form and hoping they figure it out? Yeah that doesn't compute.

[Yum Cha]

Teaching them a techniques and its setups and letting them learn through sparring (like in a BJJ class), is like teaching a form and hoping they figure it out? Yeah that doesn't compute.

In all fairness, you are right and wrong, just like some schools are strong, and some are weak.

Some people are forms collectors, they memorise a dance, and add it to a portfolio. More the merrier.

But some schools/forms are just taught in increments, the increment worked on to develop muscle memory, then worked on in controlled application with other students or a coach, then added to your sparring toolkit. When all the parts are complete, you tie them together as the form. 108 moves isn't very many.

If you are pacing your forms training to meet quarterly budgets/expectations of testing and advancement revenues, you might tend to rush through them, they become an end, not a means.

Somewhere in here is the depth vs breadth argument.

[SoCo KungFu]

But some schools/forms are just taught in increments, the increment worked on to develop muscle memory, then worked on in controlled application with other students or a coach


I repeat, I've yet to see a convincing argument as to how you can train to hit moving objects with full force, by not hitting anything with any force. There's a number of reason why trying to develop muscle memory through a form is actually more detrimental in the students progression.

[Yum Cha]

I repeat, I've yet to see a convincing argument as to how you can train to hit moving objects with full force, by not hitting anything with any force. There's a number of reason why trying to develop muscle memory through a form is actually more detrimental in the students progression.

I don't think you're reading what I'm writing - or selectively editing out the part about adding it too your tools for free fighting because it didn't fit your pre-conscieved argument.