What happens to Wing Chun when you make it competitive? [Archive]

tc101

05-25-2013, 04:09 AM

If you look at videos of first time amateur boxers they will typically not look good either many times terrible by pro standards and that is because they are beginners at fighting. There are levels of performance. In fighting your opponent is trying let me repeat trying to make you look terrible by making you miss by hitting you by confusing you by beating you to punch by messing up your range and timing by setting you up and on and on. They don't just stand there and let you do what you want. These same amateurs will look good in training.

Your examples are not what happens when you make wing chun competitive it is what happens when you have low level performers of any art compete. Do you think these same guys would look great on the street?

Fighting on the street is competition just the stakes are higher.

JPinAZ

05-25-2013, 11:10 AM

A couple of these clips weren't showing competition and were mainly just demos of forms and cooperative chis sau at events. Hopefully the OP doesn't consider all of these clips 'competition' :rolleyes:

That said, there's something for everyone. Of course some of it was 'lower level' as has already been stated, but at least the people are getting out there and testing their stuff out at some level. I personally am not a big fan of the chi sau comps in general because they typically have nothing to really do with WC & fighting IMO. I mean, why make a whole competition focused around what a lot of people consider just a sensitivity drill. But, if you're going to do it, I much more prefer the 2 clips that showed guys suited up with gloves and head gear as a starting point like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCC_cw5obR0&feature=youtu.be

While this might offer a little too much protection for some, I'd say it's a step up from the normal silly non-energy, no head shots, slap-fest pushing-match chi sau comps that go on at most of the competitions, which IMO are a complete waste of time. Of which I've judged at an event, never to do again - at least not in the same format. I'd much more prefer what's een in the clip above.

One thing I'm confused about regarding this clip, why start from a connected (silly) 3 count roll simply to break contact to only reengage and go from there? Might as well just start from the non-contact position and engage like they typically did every time after the roll - or start for crossed hands connection and go (right wrist to right wrist). Makes a lot more sense since most fights start that way and they went there everytime anyway.

Look fwd what the OP thinks of these clips and what his real intentions are for putting them up though ;)

lance

05-25-2013, 08:23 PM

http://youtu.be/ytvUvdJSd3I

http://youtu.be/SCC_cw5obR0

http://youtu.be/BR1nOZmFPxw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OhL8bToxaU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKl9vp2PIyU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mic-MOEsRs

http://youtu.be/B17G0e-KT-w

Like or dislike? LoneTiger , sounds good to me , then that way the students of each wing chun group or school , club can see how good they really are , as oppose to just training within their class sessions . All the beginners challenge all the beginners from the other wing chun school , group or club , so as the advance and the senior wing chun assistant instructors . It would be good .

Lance

guy b.

05-26-2013, 01:15 AM

Do any clips exist showing good wing chun full contact gloved sparring? I would be interested to view them if they do, since this is the training methodology strongly advocated by the mma fan contingent of the forum.

LoneTiger108

05-28-2013, 05:48 AM

Look fwd what the OP thinks of these clips and what his real intentions are for putting them up though ;)

Errr... my 'real' intentions?

To show what happens to Wing Chun when you make it competitive. :)

Personally, I didn't like any of the clips because I can not stand to watch this kinda stuff. Stating 'Chisau Competition' when it simply isn't anything to do with Chisau is in itself fundamentally wrong and false advertising lol!

LoneTiger108

05-28-2013, 05:53 AM

LoneTiger , sounds good to me , then that way the students of each wing chun group or school , club can see how good they really are , as oppose to just training within their class sessions . All the beginners challenge all the beginners from the other wing chun school , group or club , so as the advance and the senior wing chun assistant instructors . It would be good .

Lance

Hi Lance... I know you may like the idea as you are from a fighting background, but really?? You think this would be beneficial to students of Wing Chun today and tomorrow?

I guess what I am saying is, if you think it's okay for all Wing Chun family to fight eachother can you tell me why? You say the advance and senior students, do you mean you could advance to that level if you prove yourself by beating a fellow practitioner?

Are you not just feeding the in-fighting that already exists?

Go out and compete in Sanda/Sanshou. I don't think we prove anything by fighting ourselves... but that's just me.

tc101

05-28-2013, 09:46 AM

guy b.

05-28-2013, 10:04 AM

Do you really think that the art somehow cannot work when its practitioners compete?

It can work fine in a no gloves striking competition format

JPinAZ

05-28-2013, 10:28 AM

Errr... my 'real' intentions?

To show what happens to Wing Chun when you make it competitive. :)

Personally, I didn't like any of the clips because I can not stand to watch this kinda stuff. Stating 'Chisau Competition' when it simply isn't anything to do with Chisau is in itself fundamentally wrong and false advertising lol!

I figured you wouldn't like any of the clips, because it's of people out testing their art (at whatever level) - something you are clearly opposed (afraid??) to do and now can't even stand to watch. :confused:
So, the 'real intentions' for this thread were clear from the start: Find a bunch of clips of various people out testing their art in various venues so you can show your complete dissaproval later. I'd call that just more desperate troll bait.

Ok, so once again you voice your dissaproval of people getting out and testing themselves against people outside the safety of the kwoon. What is it that are you so afraid of? Do you really believe WC will stop being WC just because you are testing it against other arts? Do you think the founders of the art never tested it in live situations? ;)

sanjuro_ronin

05-28-2013, 10:42 AM

It can work fine in a no gloves striking competition format

Not sure why you feel that WC is so inferior to other MA that can make THEIR strikes work with gloves.

sanjuro_ronin

05-28-2013, 10:52 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgwzfmIfAHU

LoneTiger108

05-28-2013, 12:07 PM

Do you really think that the art somehow cannot work when its practitioners compete?

No. I just don't like competitions.

LoneTiger108

05-28-2013, 12:09 PM

I'd call that just more desperate troll bait.

Your obsession with Trolls reminds me of an old friend of mine.

He too couldn't read well... so he just made up words that he thought he could see lol! ;)

guy b.

05-28-2013, 12:14 PM

Not sure why you feel that WC is so inferior to other MA that can make THEIR strikes work with gloves.

I'd rather they work without than with. The two are entirely different

LoneTiger108

05-28-2013, 12:27 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgwzfmIfAHU

Nice share Sanjuro... but which was your best example of Wing Chun 'sparring'?

I liked the way this dude cancelled out much of the kickboxers leg work :) http://youtu.be/lgwzfmIfAHU?t=11m23s

sanjuro_ronin

05-28-2013, 12:44 PM

I'd rather they work without than with. The two are entirely different

A good fighter can make anything work.

sanjuro_ronin

05-28-2013, 12:46 PM

Nice share Sanjuro... but which was your best example of Wing Chun 'sparring'?

I liked the way this dude cancelled out much of the kickboxers leg work :) http://youtu.be/lgwzfmIfAHU?t=11m23s

Best example?
I would depend on a person's view of what THEY think WC is.
The clip I posted simply shows that WC can and has been used VA others, sometimes well, sometimes not as well.
Point being there is NO reason NOT to cross test a system, it would be silly not to as a matter of fact ( know thy enemy...).

guy b.

05-28-2013, 12:50 PM

A good fighter can make anything work.

Fighting with and without gloves is different. There is no direct transference of fighting skill from one to the other.

guy b.

05-28-2013, 12:55 PM

Best example?
I would depend on a person's view of what THEY think WC is.
The clip I posted simply shows that WC can and has been used VA others, sometimes well, sometimes not as well.
Point being there is NO reason NOT to cross test a system, it would be silly not to as a matter of fact ( know thy enemy...).

Who is saying don't test? Competition and testing are not equivalent.

Ironically, the best wing chun clips in the video you posted (Jerry and Philip from HK vs the xing yi guys) have been dismissed as irrelevant by the mma fan boys. These show skilled practitioners actually using it vs an opponent also trying to impose their style in a free test of skills.

sanjuro_ronin

05-28-2013, 12:56 PM

Fighting with and without gloves is different. There is no direct transference of fighting skill from one to the other.

Ok then.
Have a good one.

guy b.

05-28-2013, 01:09 PM

Ok then.
Have a good one.

No problem

wingchunIan

05-28-2013, 02:34 PM

Fighting with and without gloves is different. There is no direct transference of fighting skill from one to the other.

As someone quoted the other day, it is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and confirm it.

guy b.

05-28-2013, 02:35 PM

As someone quoted the other day, it is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and confirm it.

Then stop doing so

Wayfaring

05-28-2013, 02:35 PM

Fighting with and without gloves is different. There is no direct transference of fighting skill from one to the other.

Then you should be really happy if someone set up a bareknuckle match between you and one of the Klitschkos.

Actually that would make all of us really happy.

JPinAZ

05-28-2013, 02:43 PM

Best example?
I would depend on a person's view of what THEY think WC is.
The clip I posted simply shows that WC can and has been used VA others, sometimes well, sometimes not as well.
Point being there is NO reason NOT to cross test a system, it would be silly not to as a matter of fact ( know thy enemy...).

Completely agree. Unfortunately, there are some WC 'purists' here that feel doing this would somehow water down or change their WC. :confused:

While I don't subsribe to the need to cross train WC with other arts (except maybe BJJ for ground grappling if one choses), we should all be willing to test ourselves with other arts so we don't live in a bubble under false illusions that our skills can protect ourselves when needed wihtout ever having tested them. (haha, yeah, run-on sentance)

JPinAZ

05-28-2013, 02:46 PM

Your obsession with Trolls reminds me of an old friend of mine.

He too couldn't read well... so he just made up words that he thought he could see lol! ;)

It's just like a troll, copy out selected bits of someone's post to troll some more while ignoring any content that is relative to the discussion.

Since you're so against going out and trying your art against other styles, how do you verify whether or not you can confidently 'drop' someone in a real confrontations without it? What do you do in your training that gives you this confidence?

guy b.

05-28-2013, 02:47 PM

Then you should be really happy if someone set up a bareknuckle match between you and one of the Klitschkos.

Actually that would make all of us really happy.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Klitschko brothers are effective fighters.

Wayfaring

05-28-2013, 02:50 PM

Since you're so against going out and trying your art against other styles, how do you verify whether or not you can confidently 'drop' someone in a real confrontations without it? What do you do in your training that gives you this confidence?

He likes to do compliant chi sau until he gets into a position where he can hold the other guy's face and dance. if the dancing elicits a "nice movement" comment from his sihings, then he is assured that will be enough to be able to drop someone in an altercation. If you have "nice movement" then you have "good wing chun".

guy b.

05-28-2013, 02:57 PM

GlennR

05-28-2013, 03:26 PM

There is absolutely no evidence that the Klitschko brothers are effective fighters.

You sir.......... are a retard

JPinAZ

05-28-2013, 03:28 PM

He likes to do compliant chi sau until he gets into a position where he can hold the other guy's face and dance. if the dancing elicits a "nice movement" comment from his sihings, then he is assured that will be enough to be able to drop someone in an altercation. If you have "nice movement" then you have "good wing chun".

haha. You're probably not far from the truth.

What's funny to me is, people like lone tiger that have a lot to say on what WC is and isn't, what it should or shouldn't be, yet refuse to answer any direct questions about what thier own 'correct' training methods are that they base all of these views off of. Look how many times you've asked guy b the same simple, easy-to-answer questions that always go ignored!

I can only assmue they are trolling if they refuse to give any examples of the experience they base their opinions off of. I could be wrong, but the evidence (or lack of) doesn't show it to be so..

Aa a counter point, any time someone asks you a question, you can list how many days you train, what goes on during that training, who you train with etc. Doesn't make you more right/wrong that someone else, but it does show you are speaking from your own experiences which goes a long way in my book.

guy b.

05-28-2013, 03:45 PM

Look how many times you've asked guy b the same simple, easy-to-answer questions that always go ignored

Look how many times I've asked Wayfaring the same simple, easy-to-answer questions that always go ignored.

JPinAZ

05-28-2013, 03:47 PM

How I love ignore :)

Dragonzbane76

05-28-2013, 03:57 PM

There is absolutely no evidence that the Klitschko brothers are effective fighters.

fighters no, boxers yes.

guy b.

05-28-2013, 04:29 PM

fighters no, boxers yes.

Exactly the case

Dragonzbane76

05-28-2013, 05:38 PM

Exactly the case

That doesn't mean that it would not translate. Yes they would need additional training but the path is well set below there feet, more so than most.

Phil Redmond

05-28-2013, 08:07 PM

Not sure why you feel that WC is so inferior to other MA that can make THEIR strikes work with gloves.
Didn't WSL say something like, the only way to learn to fight is to fight? Unless you want to get into regular street fights the only way to test your "martial" art is to make it "martial". Competitions can be a way to test your art under pressure.

Phil Redmond

05-28-2013, 08:09 PM

A good fighter can make anything work.
No you di'int...LOL

Phil Redmond

05-28-2013, 08:15 PM

wingchunIan

05-29-2013, 12:13 AM

There is absolutely no evidence that the Klitschko brothers are effective fighters.

see my previous post. I now feel quite sorry for you but not enough to want to read anymore of your drivel, you've just made it into a very exclusive club.

LoneTiger108

05-29-2013, 01:47 AM

If you don't test you art, how do you know it'll work for real?

Wah! Isn't this what everyone else here is asking too? And they all have their answers which I can only presume most guys here agree with?

You spar.
You fight.
You compete.
You pressure test.

A 5 year old can do everything above with NO Martial Art training whatsoever!!! Actually what people are saying is you test your Wing Chun by doing anything BUT your curriculum... Sheez!

How do you test your Wing Chun without fighting? Answer me that...

wingchunIan

05-29-2013, 02:34 AM

How I love ignore :)

yup, its an exclusive list but some people just work so **** hard to get onto it

tc101

05-29-2013, 03:32 AM

How do you test your Wing Chun without fighting? Answer me that...

You can test your wing chun without fighting. You can test your structure without fighting, you can test your chi Sao without fighting, you can test your form without fighting and so on. These are all wing chun. Wing chun has various levels and you can test each one only through performance by doing that aspect. You test structure through performance, chi Sao through performance, form through performance and yes application through performance. How else can you possibly test your ability to freely apply your wing chun skills against someone trying to fight back except by doing that?

Performing the curriculum tests your knowledge of the curriculum but it does not test your ability to freely use your wing chun against someone fighting you.

BPWT

05-29-2013, 05:23 AM

I don't think competition necessarily means your WT/VT/WC will suffer.

We train a fighting art, so you have to fight with it at some point in order to test what you're doing. (unless you train purely for the love of the art and don't care one way or the other if it works for you/if you can make it work, in a fight... which is cool too - some people just love to practice a given art for nothing more than the sake of it)

We know that the likes of Sum Nung and Yeun Kay San accepted challenge matches, Yip Man exchanged with other Wing Chunners (and I'm sure there was a competitive edge to that - it's human nature).

People are competitive creatures :)

I spar, but I don't compete in competitions - the sparring is a learning tool and also has that competitive edge to it.

My only concern with people in our art sparring is that I think many approach it too early. I think there should be a transition from isolated partner drills and pad and bag work, to Chi Sau and Lat Sau, and then to sparring.

Otherwise it is hard/difficult to spar while keeping to the art (its concepts, its body methods, strategies, etc).

For sure, what I think is the correct methodology is not the fastest way to train in a live environment. Taking boxing lessons or joining a MMA class will get you there quicker (if that's where you're looking to get)

LoneTiger108

05-29-2013, 05:26 AM

You can test your wing chun without fighting. You can test your structure without fighting, you can test your chi Sao without fighting, you can test your form without fighting and so on. These are all wing chun. Wing chun has various levels and you can test each one only through performance by doing that aspect. You test structure through performance, chi Sao through performance, form through performance and yes application through performance. How else can you possibly test your ability to freely apply your wing chun skills against someone trying to fight back except by doing that?

Performing the curriculum tests your knowledge of the curriculum but it does not test your ability to freely use your wing chun against someone fighting you.

*YAWN!

You do see that you answered with no answers don't you?

Key to my question was the word 'HOW'??? You say I can test everything here without fighting, but you do not tell me how other than 'performing my curriculum'??? Basically you are trying to agree with what I say but then throw in your conclusion at the end, which is the now infamous 'if you aint fighting you aint testing nothing' :o

Let me ask you how have you accomplished your self testing? I can only guess that you have gone out and fought people for the hell of it or have got into fights that you didn't start and fared pretty well?

OR Have you competed and tested your unlimited Wing Chun skill in a quite limited sporting environment?

LoneTiger108

05-29-2013, 05:29 AM

JPinAZ

05-29-2013, 07:56 AM

Wah! Isn't this what everyone else here is asking too? And they all have their answers which I can only presume most guys here agree with?

You spar.
You fight.
You compete.
You pressure test.

A 5 year old can do everything above with NO Martial Art training whatsoever!!! Actually what people are saying is you test your Wing Chun by doing anything BUT your curriculum... Sheez!

How do you test your Wing Chun without fighting? Answer me that...

Funny, this is the golden question I've asked you several times already, which you simply keep ignoring. For me, the easy answer is, you can't - You have to do at least some of the things you listed above to test your art without plain old fighting it out on the streets. And it's pretty well accepted that the curriculum alone won't do it (forms, drills, chi sau, etc being the curriculum).
And let me be clear, you don't need to 'compete' to do it, but IMO one of the others you listed should be part of it at some point. Competition is one avenue. Have you seen the clips on youtube of Phil's guys 'competing' in the MUSU in NY? Far from the dreaded point sparring you are so against ;)

Now, since you oppose the above things you've listed to a point you dislike even watching them, why not answer the question yourself and give an alternate viewpoint? How do you test your WC without fighting, competing or sparring others outside your school?

tc101

05-29-2013, 12:41 PM

*YAWN!

You do see that you answered with no answers don't you?

Key to my question was the word 'HOW'??? You say I can test everything here without fighting, but you do not tell me how other than 'performing my curriculum'??? Basically you are trying to agree with what I say but then throw in your conclusion at the end, which is the now infamous 'if you aint fighting you aint testing nothing' :o

Let me ask you how have you accomplished your self testing? I can only guess that you have gone out and fought people for the hell of it or have got into fights that you didn't start and fared pretty well?

OR Have you competed and tested your unlimited Wing Chun skill in a quite limited sporting environment?

Sorry I am boring you so that you need to yawn. I guess Yip Man's code of conduct does not require manners.

You did not understand what I wrote. You test the various aspects of wing chun by performing those various aspects. You test structure through structure tests, form by performing forms, chi Sao skills by doing chi Sao. I do to think that is hard to understand. You do the same thing to test your ability to use your wing chun against someone fighting you. You don't need to get into street fights to test your ability to apply wing chun against someone fighting with you. You can spar or compete. Sparring and sporting contexts do not have to be quite limited as you think. If you can't practice it in sparring or competition you can't really practice doing it so you will be trying to do something in a street fight you have never really practiced.

I think everyone can make their wing chun work. The question isn't can you make it work the question is at what level can you make it work. Wing chun does not just have an on off switch.

LoneTiger108

05-29-2013, 01:41 PM

Sorry I am boring you so that you need to yawn. I guess Yip Man's code of conduct does not require manners.

Sorry if you thought that was bad manners but I can't help but express my boredom these days. Besides I really don't know if Ip Mans code of conduct can be applied here as I have expected. Just too many people who couldn't give a ****!

You did not understand what I wrote.

Because I got bored? Thought I was clear that I was of the opinion that you didn't really say anything to support your view. But thanks for this info as it helps me understand a little more...

You test the various aspects of wing chun by performing those various aspects. You test structure through structure tests, form by performing forms, chi Sao skills by doing chi Sao. I do to think that is hard to understand.

You like to tell me what I am doing, but I asked 'how'? By the logic you show here, to test my fighting skills I would still have to fight... which I am getting used to hearing and understand completely. But 'how'? How to fight to test my striking skill? How to fight to test my defensive skill? This is what I mean and I believe you can test these skills efficiently enough through good interactive training. Sparring too if you like. But fighting? I do not see that as being a place to test anything. You must do. Which for me is the result of all the previous testing.

Am I making any sense?

Trying to watch the footie and type here is a multi-task challenge lol!

If you can't practice it in sparring or competition you can't really practice doing it so you will be trying to do something in a street fight you have never really practiced.

If you're talking about striking a moving target I can train this without sparring. If you're talking about impact I can train this without sparring. Accuracy, speed and power I train without sparring. All skills that are required in sparring. And here is my final point... I like the idea of sparring to build on these skills I have trained through a more lively activity, but both participants are still holding back. They're purpose is to help each other improve and that's a totally different universe to an actual fight in my book.

This is why I support the idea that we train for the fight throughout our entire system. And if competing for the win is necessary for a practitioner to feel complete in their training, I totally disagree. Just as I disagree that a Sifu or Coach needs to have proved himself in this way, which seems to be the backbone of any debate here about what Wing Chun is for these days.

So here's my limited view based on my limited experience of competitions:

If we are to showcase our entire system the sparring platforms I have witnessed have been very limited and do not do the system any justice at all when it is compared to other mainstream Martial Art competitions. I have heard that the past 80's comps in the UK were pretty gruesome, and although made a statement in their day they would be considered pretty light weight now. Up to this day families/lineages have not really come together to create a unique competitive platform that does everything I would expect, and possibly more.

And if we all did this, there must be a unified purpose.

This is where I struggle to go beyond, because we all have individual purpose and just can't seem to agree on anything anymore and that is a pretty sad place for any Martial Art system to be.

Do we all lose either way? If we have comps and if we do not?

tc101

05-29-2013, 03:05 PM

You like to tell me what I am doing, but I asked 'how'? By the logic you show here, to test my fighting skills I would still have to fight... which I am getting used to hearing and understand completely. But 'how'? How to fight to test my striking skill? How to fight to test my defensive skill? This is what I mean and I believe you can test these skills efficiently enough through good interactive training. Sparring too if you like. But fighting? I do not see that as being a place to test anything. You must do. Which for me is the result of all the previous testing.

Am I making any sense?

I do understand what you are putting forth.

Fighting skills are what we practice in sparring right? You seem attached to the idea that a fight is defending yourself in an assault. Yes that is one sort of fight but is not the only kind. The main idea here is sparring is where we practice against someone who is fighting back and trying to defeat them using our wing chun. By trying to do that and by practicing that we get better dealing with someone fighting us.

Can we not say that anytime we use our wing chun it is a test of some sort?

If you're talking about striking a moving target I can train this without sparring. If you're talking about impact I can train this without sparring. Accuracy, speed and power I train without sparring. All skills that are required in sparring. And here is my final point... I like the idea of sparring to build on these skills I have trained through a more lively activity, but both participants are still holding back. They're purpose is to help each other improve and that's a totally different universe to an actual fight in my book.

That sort of training is good in that it sharpens our tools but it is not practicing using those tools to defeat someone trying to defeat you. Sharpening the tools is one part of training and practicing using the tools to defeat an opponent is another part.

I understand wanting to do cooperative holding back sparring to help your partner improve and I think some of that maybe a good thing but as if you don't practice sparring with someone actively trying to beat you there is a lot of things you will miss.

This is why I support the idea that we train for the fight throughout our entire system. And if competing for the win is necessary for a practitioner to feel complete in their training, I totally disagree. Just as I disagree that a Sifu or Coach needs to have proved himself in this way, which seems to be the backbone of any debate here about what Wing Chun is for these days.

So here's my limited view based on my limited experience of competitions:

If we are to showcase our entire system the sparring platforms I have witnessed have been very limited and do not do the system any justice at all when it is compared to other mainstream Martial Art competitions. I have heard that the past 80's comps in the UK were pretty gruesome, and although made a statement in their day they would be considered pretty light weight now. Up to this day families/lineages have not really come together to create a unique competitive platform that does everything I would expect, and possibly more.

And if we all did this, there must be a unified purpose.

This is where I struggle to go beyond, because we all have individual purpose and just can't seem to agree on anything anymore and that is a pretty sad place for any Martial Art system to be.

Do we all lose either way? If we have comps and if we do not?

If a person wants to participate in organized competitions or not is a personal choice. There is nothing wrong with competing or not competing. I do not think wing chun needs any unified purpose as you propose. The individual is not there to serve the system the system is there to serve the individual.

GlennR

05-29-2013, 03:16 PM

Jumping from Seans thread...........

Is a unified direction too much to ask?

Unified direction where?? What for?
Its might sound all warm and cosey but what for?

Nope. It was my heartfelt attempt at trying to talk a language this dude from AZ might understand... but no worries as it sounds like he has his jock friends on here to protect him lol!

And there you go again.... havent you been mumbling something about codes of honour and so forth, but happy to make sweeping generalisations of people due to something they do, in this case MMA.

And tell me why you want to compete? What do you gain from competing with Wing Chun?

Its hardwired into everyone to compete.... evolution and all that stuff you know. Youre competing right now by arguing on this forum.

Why compete with WC. Because its fun and i like to make things work that people say cant......... happy with that?

Oh wait... try responding on my own thread if you can be bothered.

Youre never a bother Spencer

Love... Hobby Boy

JPinAZ

05-29-2013, 04:03 PM

Nope. It was my heartfelt attempt at trying to talk a language this dude from AZ might understand... but no worries as it sounds like he has his jock friends on here to protect him lol!

This attachment you have to me is getting a bit creepy bro. Maybe you can start another thread entitled "How I love JP in AZ"? :eek:

LoneTiger108

05-30-2013, 04:51 AM

This attachment you have to me is getting a bit creepy bro. Maybe you can start another thread entitled "How I love JP in AZ"? :eek:

I think you may need to lookit yourself dude??! Everytime I think I have said what I need to say you return like an over possessive ex??! :eek:

Jog on mate... or at least try and stick to the thread subject matter and actually give some sound reasoning to your ideals...

JPinAZ

05-30-2013, 08:20 AM

or at least try and stick to the thread subject matter and actually give some sound reasoning to your ideals...

Thanks, but I did exactly that 2 posts ago in direct reply to you. Maybe you missed that one? Because you didn't reply.. Post 49. Now's your chance!

And my creepy reply still stands. It is getting weird. :(

LoneTiger108

06-03-2013, 02:38 AM

Thanks, but I did exactly that 2 posts ago in direct reply to you. Maybe you missed that one? Because you didn't reply.. Post 49. Now's your chance!

Well yep! Definitely missed that post #49 so it seems we have missed a unique opportunity to hug and make up lol!

My question, which was actually aimed at the whole group here, was:

How do you test your Wing Chun without fighting? Answer me that...

And I asked that question specifically, and answered it myself in post #51 while chatting with tc101 as I think he/she understands a little more about what I am talking about here maybe...

Funny, this is the golden question I've asked you several times already, which you simply keep ignoring. For me, the easy answer is, you can't

Now for the sake of starting the week on a positive note, I think if you read through my earlier post you will see how I train 'for the fight' without actually fighting, and to be clear, I do not and have never viewed 'fighting' as 'competition'. So in many respects I agree that you can only test, your actual fighting ability through fighting, and competition tends to restrict how we train our system, in some cases to the total detriment of our core principles (my straight kick to the inside of the knee joint was one of my first examples here as something that I thought was against the rules of most freestyle comps)

So, what does happen to Wing Chun when we compete??

The Wing Chun I know of is lost when I see attempts at comps in the past and the clips I posted only highlight a few, but that just maybe because I do not want to see our system sacrificed to please people that really couldn't care less about our system...

tc101

06-03-2013, 04:32 AM

Well yep! Definitely missed that post #49 so it seems we have missed a unique opportunity to hug and make up lol!

My question, which was actually aimed at the whole group here, was:

How do you test your Wing Chun without fighting? Answer me that...

And I asked that question specifically, and answered it myself in post #51 while chatting with tc101 as I think he/she understands a little more about what I am talking about here maybe...

Or maybe not lol. As I learned wing chun there are various aspects to the training and we test those aspects through performance of those aspects.

Now for the sake of starting the week on a positive note, I think if you read through my earlier post you will see how I train 'for the fight' without actually fighting

Here is I think the deal if you do in fighting what you do in sparring or to change it around do in sparring what you will do in fighting, use the same techniques and tactics and strategies and concepts, then as you get better at sparring you get better at fighting. Your sparring becomes the practice of your fighting.

, and to be clear, I do not and have never viewed 'fighting' as 'competition'. So in many respects I agree that you can only test, your actual fighting ability through fighting, and competition tends to restrict how we train our system, in some cases to the total detriment of our core principles (my straight kick to the inside of the knee joint was one of my first examples here as something that I thought was against the rules of most freestyle comps)

Your reason is the so called deadly technique argument, saying I cannot compete because I can't use my deadly technique. Honestly sport fighters ridicule this argument since it has been demonstrated time and time and time again to be false. Really does your whole art collapse if you cannot use one specific kick or if you cannot target the groin?

So, what does happen to Wing Chun when we compete??

Nothing. Wing chun stays the same. It is not wing chun that competes it is the individual who competes. They will perform regardless of their style at their own level.

The Wing Chun I know of is lost when I see attempts at comps in the past and the clips I posted only highlight a few, but that just maybe because I do not want to see our system sacrificed to please people that really couldn't care less about our system...

Poor levels of performance reflect inadequate training and preparation. It is not a reflection on the whole art.

LoneTiger108

06-03-2013, 05:24 AM

Here is I think the deal if you do in fighting what you do in sparring or to change it around do in sparring what you will do in fighting, use the same techniques and tactics and strategies and concepts, then as you get better at sparring you get better at fighting. Your sparring becomes the practice of your fighting.

Actually I see what you are saying... I don't think you are understanding me at all lol! The whole reasoning behind what you are saying is flawed... sparring can not represent your fighting!

Sparring is sparring. Fighting is fighting. That's just my view.

Your reason is the so called deadly technique argument, saying I cannot compete because I can't use my deadly technique. Honestly sport fighters ridicule this argument since it has been demonstrated time and time and time again to be false. Really does your whole art collapse if you cannot use one specific kick or if you cannot target the groin?

No. Actually my argument is PRINCIPLE led, not technique led. Just as my teaching of Wing Chun is the same (as I believe it should be). And how has this simple concept been demonstrated to be false?? Who, in the MMA/Comp arena has kicked or stomped the inside of the knee without being disuqualified? Who has tried to gouge the eyes??

What I am saying is simple really. It isn't magic. It's logic.

Wing chun stays the same. It is not wing chun that competes it is the individual who competes. They will perform regardless of their style at their own level.

No. Again you are wrong imho. If it's called a Wing Chun Chisau Compettion, it is Wing Chun that is expected to be seen competing. Regardless of the individual, Wing Chun Chisau is expected. And I do not see that in many of the clips and comps I have seen. Once contacted is broken it tends to become a free-for-all, trading blows in a non-productive manner. Wing Chun was not designed to 'trade blows', it was designed to finish off adversaries quickly and effectively in the shortest possible time and least amount of effort. Jumping around for 3 min rounds is hardly doing that is it?

And yes. Whovever has the audience, and whoever is dominating the promotional marketing strategies does have a direct affect on how we are ALL viewed by others, the reflection of the art can be compromised. But this is just my view! I'm looking to see how and why others support comps... and specifically to see if there could be a way we compete that satisfies the more fussy practitioners out there like me lol!

No luck yet :(

tc101

06-03-2013, 09:27 AM

Actually I see what you are saying... I don't think you are understanding me at all lol! The whole reasoning behind what you are saying is flawed... sparring can not represent your fighting!

Sparring is sparring. Fighting is fighting. That's just my view.

Yes, sparring and fighting are two different things. However I explained why sparring can be practice fighting. It works that way if you do in sparring what you will do in fighting. This is the whole premise behind sport fight training and why sport fighters get so good.

If you plan to do something else in fighting that you don't practice in sparring then you are trying to do something that you've never really practiced live.

No. Actually my argument is PRINCIPLE led, not technique led. Just as my teaching of Wing Chun is the same (as I believe it should be). And how has this simple concept been demonstrated to be false?? Who, in the MMA/Comp arena has kicked or stomped the inside of the knee without being disuqualified? Who has tried to gouge the eyes??

So your principle is to gouge the eyes and kick the knee? What do you do if accosted by some drunk? Are you going to poke out his eyes or try to break his leg? Any fighting art provides us with different tools, permits different levels of force and so forth to deal with various situations. If your thinking is I will only try to blind, kill or maim someone that tries to fight with me, then you are a psychopath and will end up in prison or dead.

Wing chun has various tools. How we choose and I want to emphasize choose to use them is up to us and our skills not dictated to us by the system or some so called principle. Do not be a slave to the system.

What I am saying is simple really. It isn't magic. It's logic.

That deadly technique argument has been refuted over and over and over.

No. Again you are wrong imho. If it's called a Wing Chun Chisau Compettion, it is Wing Chun that is expected to be seen competing. Regardless of the individual, Wing Chun Chisau is expected. And I do not see that in many of the clips and comps I have seen. Once contacted is broken it tends to become a free-for-all, trading blows in a non-productive manner. Wing Chun was not designed to 'trade blows', it was designed to finish off adversaries quickly and effectively in the shortest possible time and least amount of effort. Jumping around for 3 min rounds is hardly doing that is it?

Regardless of how you believe wing chun should be practiced or is designed for the reality is your opponent will be actively trying to stop you from finishing him quickly and effectively and will be trying to do the same to you. Boxers have a saying that everyone has a plan until they get hit. When this happens things get messy. That is simply how it works.

And yes. Whovever has the audience, and whoever is dominating the promotional marketing strategies does have a direct affect on how we are ALL viewed by others, the reflection of the art can be compromised. But this is just my view! I'm looking to see how and why others support comps... and specifically to see if there could be a way we compete that satisfies the more fussy practitioners out there like me lol!

No luck yet :(

Deciding to compete in organized competition is a personal choice. It might surprise you that the majority of people in bjj mma boxing mt and so on classes also do not compete. Only a small number do.

What I see is that it really is a personality issue. Some like competition and some don't. Those that like it rationalize why it is good, those who don't like it rationalize why it is bad.

LoneTiger108

06-03-2013, 10:22 AM

Yes, sparring and fighting are two different things. However I explained why sparring can be practice fighting. It works that way if you do in sparring what you will do in fighting. This is the whole premise behind sport fight training and why sport fighters get so good.

Sorry I think we are on different pages...

So your principle is to gouge the eyes and kick the knee? What do you do if accosted by some drunk? Are you going to poke out his eyes or try to break his leg?

See here is the problem... You are not reading and I specifically put important words in CAPS!! I use principles and put forward 2 basic principle led techniques and now you want to change it around and have me fighting a drunk lol!!

Principle 1 - Strike opponents weak spot
Tech 1 - Gouge eyes

Principle 2 - Strike opponents closest target with longest weapon
Tech 2 - Kick front knee with straight stomp

Boxers have a saying that everyone has a plan until they get hit. When this happens things get messy. That is simply how it works.

Wasn't that Tysons saying? He was an exceptional striker so props to him but let me offer you a Wing Chun saying that is similar... Use defence as attack! So take off the boxers glove and let him continue to try and jab you in the face while you tuck in your vchin and offer him the top of your skull. This is fighting not sparring and this is what Wing Chun is all about (apparently!)

tc101

06-04-2013, 05:12 AM

Sorry I think we are on different pages...

Yes I think we are.

See here is the problem... You are not reading and I specifically put important words in CAPS!! I use principles and put forward 2 basic principle led techniques and now you want to change it around and have me fighting a drunk lol!!

Principle 1 - Strike opponents weak spot
Tech 1 - Gouge eyes

Principle 2 - Strike opponents closest target with longest weapon
Tech 2 - Kick front knee with straight stomp

I did understand what you wrote caps and all. I used the example of dealing with the drunk to show that if you stuck to your principles which includes trying to poke eyes or stomp knees that you will have painted yourself into a corner. Do you deal with a drunk by poking his eyes out? You need to have greater flexibility in using your skills to deal with the real world or even a sparring partner.

As I learned it wing chun has a technical repertoire and also strategies, tactics and concepts or principles to help us apply those techniques in fighting situations. Those strategies and tactics and concepts don't require or demand we do anything they are guidelines. Those guidelines give us wide flexibility in applying the tools and they absolutely need to since not every scrape we might get into is to the death lol.

Wasn't that Tysons saying? He was an exceptional striker so props to him but let me offer you a Wing Chun saying that is similar... Use defence as attack! So take off the boxers glove and let him continue to try and jab you in the face while you tuck in your vchin and offer him the top of your skull. This is fighting not sparring and this is what Wing Chun is all about (apparently!)

That saying is an old one and Tyson among others have repeated it. The point is that fighting is messy and requires flexibility and adaptability not rigid adherence to some concepts.

A boxer is not going to jab your forehead. All boxers automatically tuck their chins anyway. This is a good illustration of one of the reasons sparring is a necessity if you want to learn how to really use your wing chun skills. Sparring would prove to you that this idea is a very bad one and what the consequences would be for doing it. Learning what not to do is equally important as knowing what to do.

LoneTiger108

06-04-2013, 05:44 AM

I did understand what you wrote caps and all. I used the example of dealing with the drunk to show that if you stuck to your principles which includes trying to poke eyes or stomp knees that you will have painted yourself into a corner. Do you deal with a drunk by poking his eyes out? You need to have greater flexibility in using your skills to deal with the real world or even a sparring partner.

Wah... I can't recall anywhere saying that these techs are the be all and end all, I just used them as examples on where the rules in compettion fail to serve a good Wing Chun student because these are some of the most common things taught relating to some of our principles.

As I learned it wing chun has a technical repertoire and also strategies, tactics and concepts or principles to help us apply those techniques in fighting situations.

If you have been taught a Sansau based method of Wing Chun that is your experience. This technical repertoire you are talking about is (I will presume) directly connected to your teachers experience too. My point is and will always be that Wing Chun is principle led, not technique led.

This is also why I liked an earlier post that mentioned students doing themselves a disservice by trying to spar or enter competitions too early in their training. Out of interest, and for the sake of clarifying your views here, how long have you trained Wing Chun? Under what Sifu/Organisation?

A boxer is not going to jab your forehead. All boxers automatically tuck their chins anyway. This is a good illustration of one of the reasons sparring is a necessity if you want to learn how to really use your wing chun skills.

Again, you are missing my point. But nevermind I can't be repeating myself again...